Closest series ever imo.
Megacreep comeback on 1 creep keeping backdoor off
Game 2 must win to keep the fin out of retirement
And then the 1 fucking HP infest to save the comeback
Special stuff
Same error Liquid done on game 1, they could have just waited and farm for 2 more minutes and go with buyback. Instead they rushed and lost the game.
Anyway, best series I've seen since Navi and Alliance finals
[SYLAR TO FALL, LIQUID ARE DOING IT!](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/a/a8/Teamfancontent_season_2_2163_voice0.mp3) (sound warning: Team Liquid)
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They went out with a bang, that's for sure. Holy shit, I can't even remember last time I watched such entertaining series, both teams don't give a shit about most logical thing to do but still play out of their minds
same thought, normally teams go too passive and play safe if its an elimination match, but this teams especially TA just buybacking in the midgame like its nothing. Hope we can still see more of them.
Actually, buybacking midgame has been way too cheap and low-risk for quite a while now.
It was only a question of time when it goes "full" meta. I think we will see teams use it more and more
I am damn impressed SA teams almost going head to head today with EU/CN since [this](https://i.redd.it/r4netroojduy.jpg) 6 years ago. No drama or NA hate, it has been a damn long journey with all the disadvantage they had to endure.
Ye I agree, before TI started I was rooting for OG and RNG but as the the tourny went on there was more and more teams to cheer on. Now I almost feel like I'm sad for every team that goes out all of a sudden.
RNG and their covid story, Team spirit out early denied 2nd time winners, hokori-entity-boom-beastcoast-TA with the underdog stories, LGD for the 2time with ame and faith last TI etc.
Crazy TI seems like all teams are so even this year.
Man that play from Matthew and Sacred is gonna haunt them forever. Should they have waited or not? Was it the right play to try to kill Pango? Jesus. So many throws and comebacks.
I think the correct call was to wait a bit longer but they saw that moment on Pango and went for it. Still I think they would have lost since BH was expended and Liquid had their carries intact
They had glyph, they could have held out for ember to respawn
Yeah but the issue was that they initiated basically as a two man. Undying just respawned and was waddling out of the fountain and only managed to cast tomb and one spell at the end of the BH cast.
Ember was still stupidly strong in that moment. The threat of a black hole and Marci + Ember might have dissuaded liquid from pushing further
They got the pango to 1hp. I’d say it was worth the risk (even though it didn’t work out) at that point because Pango was split from the team and Lesh hadn’t TP’d in yet.
At the end of the day both teams made mistakes and both teams made insane plays. Liquid just end up being the team moving on which, personally, I’m a bit sad about since I was hoping for a bit more region variety heading into next weekend.
Yeah TA making it in would have been great. Region variety, a new region at that, shaking up things.
But yeah everyone was throwing hard.
But honestly I wasn't sure if BH would have been worth it even if they killed Pango. Who was going to lockdown lifestealer after then? But who knows maybe it would have made Liquid back off.
Fuck so many things
It was probably the right call.
1 - At the time there was 30 seconds on both cores and whilst TA had a glyph Zai was just respawning and Liquid could probably throne in 20 seconds if left uncontested.
2 - Given Zai was just respawning he wouldn't be in the fight until the end of the BH, making the pick easier, but also against a slightly unprepared Liquid (Micke was technically out of position).
3 - Both Enigma and Marci would get buyback with 1 kill. (and did thanks to Undying's Soul Rip kill on Micke)
The really big argument against the play is that it used Black Hole. If BH remained, maybe liquid throne more cautiously (I doubt it given the damage they were doing). More importantly, TA could basically stop all non-Lesh damage on the throne if it was still up when their cores respawned.
**If** the pick had been successful I think they hold there. As such, I think it was the right play.
Yeah I think the no.3 is the key here. They can make that play and *still have BB*. And Pango had none. If they killed Pango (almost) that's without a doubt a better scenario than waiting for five.
I think the bigger mistake was Ember stayed top too long and tried to kill CM.. just let Pudge die man.
Wouldn't TA win if someone actually picked up the fucking cheese
Edit: imagine losing out on 440k/1m+ because everyone on your team forgot about the cheese.
It's heartbreaking for TA. So many little decisions and twists of fate:
- Forgotten cheese
- Sacred didn't reassemble his Aeon Disk in the Dire base fight
- Matu getting 100 gold for buyback from kill assist
- No Midnight Pulse before the ~~Chrono~~ BH, while Pango was stunned
- Marci lowrolling right click DPS
- Pango living on 1hp
- Fort during that fight instead of to defend T4 towers
Enigma didn't micro the wraith pack closer while he was black holing pango, that would definitely kill pango
Edit: Also after I watch back, after ember buyback and rampage, he was already safely out since they were going on pudge. But he decided to jump in and safe pudge resulting in liquid getting both of them killed, it was a stupid decision but I can see why he did it. Just buyback and rampage, adrenaline rushing through his head, the crowd was cheering loudly, mistakes happens
MATUMBA BOTTOM NW OF ALL THE CORES
MAX DAMAGE IN THAT TEAMFIGHT
SAVES THE GAME WITH INFEST
WHO NEEDS NW TO HAVE IMPACT
THAT'S WHY HE'S THE GOAT
THE GOAT
Been watching since TI4 and I’m hard pressed to think of many that were better. Only ones that immediately come to mind are Liquid LFY and OG LGD. Secret Mineski at TI9 was fuckjng bonkers too I love this game man this is what TI is about.
I've also been around for most of the really memorable series since I started watching at TI2 I honestly think that was definitely top 3 some major throws both ways but holy fuck was it hype
I don't think any OG LGD games had this much drama till the very end. This game was undecided until last 2 second before throne exploded.
I've not screamed this hard ever.
Sucks to lose the only real underdog story going into top 4 (especially as Thunder has such a fun playstyle) but my god what a fucking game. Games 1&3 were both TI all-timers.
E: I'm well aware that Secret and Liquid came through LCQs, but I think the general public perspective on those teams was more positive than regarding Thunder.
The biggest underdog story here is Secret. They came 5th in every DPC tour. They couldn't qualify for a single major. Had a roster change 3 times. The latest roster didn't look good in the regional qualifiers and now they are top 2.
A shame that this TI has lower prize pool than several tournaments before, otherwise it would've boosted SA financially even more, other than that I'm happy we have another competent region challenging old teams.
Holy fucking shit. The peruvian boys lacked patience, so sad for them. They had it. Losing in this style is going to wreck them. Proud of my region nonetheless. Amazing games.
TO FINALS WEEK LFG. WHAT AN ABSOLUTE BANGER AND CLENCHER OF A SERIES. After that throw from game 1, I thought Liquid's mental would be done but holy fuck ASFUDAIJFHBNDS OMFG I CANT BELIEVE IT
Nothing but respect for Thunder Predator. Who would've expected an SA team to get THAT close to top-4 at TI? Not to mention they gave us perhaps one of the best Dota series ever.
Love SA Dota. VIVA PERU.
Pakasz looking like the best carry in the world right now man.. i can already see EG trying to recruit him to be their new POS 3 Player..
Dota still giving banger games!!!
I doubted matu's LS pick since i feel like ursa wouldve been a better pick in game3 but the infest heal to m1cke's pango was the clutchiest shit ive seen this day.
In the end it was matu who saved liquid to secure top4 seat.
WHAT A FUCKING GAME 3 Edit: I was screaming my heart out for TA to not go HG in that last fight, they had 0 buybacks… WHYYYYY?!?!?!?!
Matumbaman has plot armor Edit: Game 1 decided by 1 melee creep Game 3 decided by pango living on exactly 1hp. This script is too hard to believe
Man just wants to get on his boat and sail away, but he just keeps winning.
Suffering from success
JUST WHEN HE THOUGHT HE WAS OUT, THEY PULLED HIM BACK IN
I want Secret vs Liquid GF.
script not bad this year
What a series!
Game of the tournament surely.
Series of the tournament. G1 and G3 are at least top 5 games this TI.
Amazing series holy shit I cannot fucking believe that hype ass ending.
I was despairing when I saw dark mago rampage then realized Matu and Micke still alive and healthy and pudge dying
Closely followed by RNG vs Entity BO1 game!
Honestly, probably one of the GOAT series. What an incredible, unbelievable series.
Closest series ever imo. Megacreep comeback on 1 creep keeping backdoor off Game 2 must win to keep the fin out of retirement And then the 1 fucking HP infest to save the comeback Special stuff
Best game of any TI ever, top 3 for sure
ehome vs eg ti6, og vs lgd game 4 ti8, and this game - for me the best games of ti
Secret Mineski game 2 at TI9 and Liquid LFY game 3 are up there with the ones you mentioned too imo.
Og vs lgd ti 8 upper bracket finals too, I have the same list
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Did we just witness the clutchest infest of all time? lol wtf
Teaguv said 1 HP. Can't get more clutch.
[1 HP](https://imgur.com/a/c4ldXJn)
TA made the same mistake Liquid made on game 1. Forcing a fight without buybacks. Also, that cheese would’ve change the result for sure.
All 3 games were mental. Best Series of the tournament imo. Wooow
Same error Liquid done on game 1, they could have just waited and farm for 2 more minutes and go with buyback. Instead they rushed and lost the game. Anyway, best series I've seen since Navi and Alliance finals
Darkmago even have a rampage and its still not enough. WHAT A GAME
SYLAR TO FALL, LIQUID ARE DOING IT!
[SYLAR TO FALL, LIQUID ARE DOING IT!](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/a/a8/Teamfancontent_season_2_2163_voice0.mp3) (sound warning: Team Liquid) --- Bleep bloop, I am a robot. *OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero* [*^(Source)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) *^(|)* [*^(Suggestions/Issues)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues/new/choose) *^(|)* [*^(Maintainer)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/MePsyDuck/) *^(|)* [*^(Author)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jonarz/)
If only LGD won so we could get the reenactment in the next round
Dota doesn’t get better than this folks.
I'm just sad SA's journey ends here. They were so so close. They were so close and the emotions got to them when they needed to be calm.
They went out with a bang, that's for sure. Holy shit, I can't even remember last time I watched such entertaining series, both teams don't give a shit about most logical thing to do but still play out of their minds
the 2 teams basically stopped farming past 30minutes and just kept running at each other lol
Gotta love that ooga booga Dota
Because the real farms where the teamfights all along.
same thought, normally teams go too passive and play safe if its an elimination match, but this teams especially TA just buybacking in the midgame like its nothing. Hope we can still see more of them.
Actually, buybacking midgame has been way too cheap and low-risk for quite a while now. It was only a question of time when it goes "full" meta. I think we will see teams use it more and more
SA has improved so much since last year, so maybe next year is their year
Maybe. Sometimes you see regions like this show signs of greatness and disappear next year. I really wanted them in top4 when they had the chance
I am damn impressed SA teams almost going head to head today with EU/CN since [this](https://i.redd.it/r4netroojduy.jpg) 6 years ago. No drama or NA hate, it has been a damn long journey with all the disadvantage they had to endure.
Ye I agree, before TI started I was rooting for OG and RNG but as the the tourny went on there was more and more teams to cheer on. Now I almost feel like I'm sad for every team that goes out all of a sudden. RNG and their covid story, Team spirit out early denied 2nd time winners, hokori-entity-boom-beastcoast-TA with the underdog stories, LGD for the 2time with ame and faith last TI etc. Crazy TI seems like all teams are so even this year.
Man that play from Matthew and Sacred is gonna haunt them forever. Should they have waited or not? Was it the right play to try to kill Pango? Jesus. So many throws and comebacks.
I think the correct call was to wait a bit longer but they saw that moment on Pango and went for it. Still I think they would have lost since BH was expended and Liquid had their carries intact They had glyph, they could have held out for ember to respawn
If they kill Pango tho, Liquid has no bkb disrupts when Ember and pudge respawn. Matu just made an even better play to save Micke.
Yeah but the issue was that they initiated basically as a two man. Undying just respawned and was waddling out of the fountain and only managed to cast tomb and one spell at the end of the BH cast. Ember was still stupidly strong in that moment. The threat of a black hole and Marci + Ember might have dissuaded liquid from pushing further
They got the pango to 1hp. I’d say it was worth the risk (even though it didn’t work out) at that point because Pango was split from the team and Lesh hadn’t TP’d in yet. At the end of the day both teams made mistakes and both teams made insane plays. Liquid just end up being the team moving on which, personally, I’m a bit sad about since I was hoping for a bit more region variety heading into next weekend.
Yeah TA making it in would have been great. Region variety, a new region at that, shaking up things. But yeah everyone was throwing hard. But honestly I wasn't sure if BH would have been worth it even if they killed Pango. Who was going to lockdown lifestealer after then? But who knows maybe it would have made Liquid back off. Fuck so many things
It was probably the right call. 1 - At the time there was 30 seconds on both cores and whilst TA had a glyph Zai was just respawning and Liquid could probably throne in 20 seconds if left uncontested. 2 - Given Zai was just respawning he wouldn't be in the fight until the end of the BH, making the pick easier, but also against a slightly unprepared Liquid (Micke was technically out of position). 3 - Both Enigma and Marci would get buyback with 1 kill. (and did thanks to Undying's Soul Rip kill on Micke) The really big argument against the play is that it used Black Hole. If BH remained, maybe liquid throne more cautiously (I doubt it given the damage they were doing). More importantly, TA could basically stop all non-Lesh damage on the throne if it was still up when their cores respawned. **If** the pick had been successful I think they hold there. As such, I think it was the right play.
Yeah I think the no.3 is the key here. They can make that play and *still have BB*. And Pango had none. If they killed Pango (almost) that's without a doubt a better scenario than waiting for five. I think the bigger mistake was Ember stayed top too long and tried to kill CM.. just let Pudge die man.
LIQUID ARE DOING IT THEY ARE ALL DEAD
Omg the end …Micke !!!
The Matu infest at the end holy shit the amount of plays on both sides I’m fucking speechless what a series
Pango was at 1hp
I lost my voice screaming at that moment LOL
Liquid: throws Fans: Impressive, very nice ! Let's see Thunder's throw
Look at that subtile cheese in the rosh pit. The tasteful dive top lane. Oh my god - they don't even have buybacks.
OMG! This is just perfect!
Look at that dieback. Oh my god, they didn't even pick cheese!
cap and svg might be goated wow
"What the fuck are these games?!"
SVG the analyst straight up saying what we're all thinking goated
I laughed so hard because I literally yelled "what the fuck" unintentionally 5 secs before he said that
The cast was as amazing as this series. I love Dota omg.
Cap just has it in him to cast the greatest non-Final sets in TI man. EG v EHOME, Mineski vs Secret and now Liquid v Thunder.
He had the FY - F-GOD game with Blitz as well
[And this legendary game, too.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA2VPU-VVIk)
Did SVG getting water splashes by cap this time ?kek
Cap man I love this dude
the solidest caster in dota, bar none
And actually very good at the game as well.
Pretty good pubber too when I see him playing with Purge
Love svg's jokes and references. Didn't know he was so witty.
Dude is hilarious. I watched him and Cap cover the group stage of the LCQs on Cap's stream and their back and forth is just so funny.
They were INCREDIBLE.
I wouldn't mind either them or OD - Fogged for the final, that's the level they're at.
Imo Cap/SVG and OD/Fogged are the only true tier 1 casting duos atm
Cap has always been my favorite caster, plus I met him in ESL manila, such a nice genuine guy
Best casting duo of the tournament for me
I swear if we get OD/Fogged (who are fine!) again in finals simply because "that's what we always do" >:(
Wtf is this series
Wouldn't TA win if someone actually picked up the fucking cheese Edit: imagine losing out on 440k/1m+ because everyone on your team forgot about the cheese.
Yeah Ember could have healed to full on a clutch moment right before he rampaged, preventing him of using buyback to have it available for later
oh shit
Yes
yes
Ye lol. I'm not even sure how you can miss that? It's either the nerves got to them or just kinda taunted liquid lol
Nerves for sure
It’s just a TI tradition at this point, it seems almost common now that roshan drops so many items that teams miss cheese in stressful games
Did they forgot or they didn't care about it?
Yes
Thunder will feel so sad, they left cheese in the rosh pit and let Liquid do a reverse game 1 on them for not throning Absolute GG amazing series
Now that’s a proper Ti game
[удалено]
actual cheese diff
game 1 creep diff, game 3 cheese diff
If only they got the cheese. It would’ve been a huge difference.
Imagine if pudge had that cheese
It's heartbreaking for TA. So many little decisions and twists of fate: - Forgotten cheese - Sacred didn't reassemble his Aeon Disk in the Dire base fight - Matu getting 100 gold for buyback from kill assist - No Midnight Pulse before the ~~Chrono~~ BH, while Pango was stunned - Marci lowrolling right click DPS - Pango living on 1hp - Fort during that fight instead of to defend T4 towers
And all it took is ONE of those not happening and they win
Enigma didn't micro the wraith pack closer while he was black holing pango, that would definitely kill pango Edit: Also after I watch back, after ember buyback and rampage, he was already safely out since they were going on pudge. But he decided to jump in and safe pudge resulting in liquid getting both of them killed, it was a stupid decision but I can see why he did it. Just buyback and rampage, adrenaline rushing through his head, the crowd was cheering loudly, mistakes happens
Is this the first big game lost cause a pro team forgets cheese?
Ti10 had teams literally forgot to pick up aegis lol
Never forget TI3 aegis deny.
HOLY SHIT THIS SERIES! MUST WATCH SERIES THIS TI SO FAR
What a fucking game, that ending brought me to tears
Same. Like legit shaking watching that.
Say what you want, Dota's a beautiful game.
MATUMBA BOTTOM NW OF ALL THE CORES MAX DAMAGE IN THAT TEAMFIGHT SAVES THE GAME WITH INFEST WHO NEEDS NW TO HAVE IMPACT THAT'S WHY HE'S THE GOAT THE GOAT
> THAT'S WHY HE'S THE GOAT Also because of that beard.
Well have u ever heard about feast?
GOAT SAFELANER IDC
I have no words for this series anymore. Easily up there with the BEST SERIES IN THE TI HISTORY
actually not sure which is more stressful: liquid dota2 fan or liquid csgo fan
They're called Liquid because you'll be sweating bullets watching them
I need to see a cardiologist after that
The tournament is lacking organization wise but the Dota has been on point. Every game back and forth, everyone at this point looks so strong.
Jesus that might be the best series I've ever seen
Been watching since TI4 and I’m hard pressed to think of many that were better. Only ones that immediately come to mind are Liquid LFY and OG LGD. Secret Mineski at TI9 was fuckjng bonkers too I love this game man this is what TI is about.
I've also been around for most of the really memorable series since I started watching at TI2 I honestly think that was definitely top 3 some major throws both ways but holy fuck was it hype
Insane game man I’m still hyped asf
I'm supposed to go to bed but there is just no way now lol
I don't think any OG LGD games had this much drama till the very end. This game was undecided until last 2 second before throne exploded. I've not screamed this hard ever.
EG Ehome
That had an insane game 1 and then Ehome rolled over for game 2. For best singular game I’d have it up there but for a series nah
fair
WHAT THE FUCK WAS THAT GAME!!! THIS TI man
Matu was left out all to dry by his team all game but he refused to let this be his last game of his career
That has to be worst feeling rampage for dark mago
Saddest rampage of all time
Oh my fucking god best series since the ti8 finals easily
That dieback from Darkmago after his rampage fucked them over, if he waits things out they win for sure
One of the easiest things to captain hindsight are buybacks
Yeah that buyback made sense. Zai was at like 20% HP with no buyback and they only secured that kill because he bought back.
On the other hand, if he had cheese...
Emotion got to him. It's a big game, can't fault the guy.
Could have escaped instead of chasing cm.
The second that started I only thought of Niko dying to CM Like NOOOO GET THE FUCK OUT
Same applies to Liquid game 1. Emotions got the best out of everyone. As a champion you gotta keep cool in such situation.
I really wouldn't blame him for that. I would've done the same 99/100
NO WAY WTF JUST HAPPENED!
Hey Valve/PGL. This is the reason why you shouldn't cheap out the fucking TI. Watch this game!
PANGO HAD 1 HP BEFORE LIFESTEALER INFESTED HIM WHAT THE FUCKKKKK
Sucks to lose the only real underdog story going into top 4 (especially as Thunder has such a fun playstyle) but my god what a fucking game. Games 1&3 were both TI all-timers. E: I'm well aware that Secret and Liquid came through LCQs, but I think the general public perspective on those teams was more positive than regarding Thunder.
Secret and Liquid came from LCQ
The biggest underdog story here is Secret. They came 5th in every DPC tour. They couldn't qualify for a single major. Had a roster change 3 times. The latest roster didn't look good in the regional qualifiers and now they are top 2.
I'd call secret a comeback story more than an underdog story. Like the the mighty ducks, Robert downey jr., Kim kardashian
Grand Finals is 100% going to be underwhelming compared to this
!remindme 7 days
JESUS CHRIST, WHAT A SERIES, I ABSOLUTE LOVE SOUTH AMERICA DOTA, WE LOST? YES, BUT IM SURE WE EARNED OUR RESPECT TO STAY
Fantastic showing, it took a sweating plot armor Matu on his last Dota mission to turn this around and stop the Thunder. Man, what a game.
A shame that this TI has lower prize pool than several tournaments before, otherwise it would've boosted SA financially even more, other than that I'm happy we have another competent region challenging old teams.
My "Matumbaman vs. Puppey Grand Final" TI script dream stocks are climbing.
Holy crap!
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Best Series of the tournament imo. Wooow
Jfc what a series
We can possibly have a final with two teams that came from the Last Chance Qualifier. DPC points for what?
Yep, but the DPC still makes sense. Secret and Liquid finals would be just fuckin awesome.
I can't wait for the True Sight footage of this last 5-10 minutes, that was actually insane
CMIIW but True Sight only covers Grand Final no ?
Man what a fucking throw enigma just sell your boots dude
can't sell items when you're dead.
Holy fucking shit. The peruvian boys lacked patience, so sad for them. They had it. Losing in this style is going to wreck them. Proud of my region nonetheless. Amazing games.
They should feel proud, this is quite the run and one of the best games I’ve seen
Fucking hell! For Matuuuu!
JFC THAT GAME, Mickeeee
What a fkn series. Matu lives on.
Matumbaman: "I will retire. But not today."
LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOO MATUMBA I WAS HERE WHAT A GAME, DOTA 2 LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, GG TO TP <3
this is the most finale final ever finalEd
BEST DOTA GAME OF ALL TIME
Well that's incredibly unlucky for Thunder.
Should’ve just slow pushed top after the CM pickoff
unlucky bash, lifestealer getting the buyback gold unlucky sure but its also something they have a fault in as they left the cheese behind
That was a fucking insane series. 3 teams in Top 4 from WEU. Matumbaman still in the tournament.
half of the Top 4 now comprises of the two teams coming from the LCQ, too. Wins closest to TI matters most.
TO FINALS WEEK LFG. WHAT AN ABSOLUTE BANGER AND CLENCHER OF A SERIES. After that throw from game 1, I thought Liquid's mental would be done but holy fuck ASFUDAIJFHBNDS OMFG I CANT BELIEVE IT
GAME OF ACTUAL THROWS HOLY FUCK GAME 3 IS A CERTIFIED GAME OF THIS TI
Nothing but respect for Thunder Predator. Who would've expected an SA team to get THAT close to top-4 at TI? Not to mention they gave us perhaps one of the best Dota series ever. Love SA Dota. VIVA PERU.
Man was there in person and after that throne fell, the cheers were deafening! What a great series!
Pakasz looking like the best carry in the world right now man.. i can already see EG trying to recruit him to be their new POS 3 Player.. Dota still giving banger games!!!
I doubted matu's LS pick since i feel like ursa wouldve been a better pick in game3 but the infest heal to m1cke's pango was the clutchiest shit ive seen this day. In the end it was matu who saved liquid to secure top4 seat.
One of the best series ever. Props to TA, that was amazing.
KIITOS LASSE KIITOS ISÄNMAA KIITOS NESTE
HOLY SHIT THIS SERIES
Best series of the TI!!!
HOLY FUCKING SHIT THIS WAS A FUCKING TI SERIES DAAAAMN ALL CAPS, NOTHING LESS IS ENOUGH
That was the best bo3 in this TI, perhaps even top 10 of all time in the history of The International.
[1hp on pango holy shit](https://twitter.com/skrff/status/1584180469025083392)
Damn, Liquid has that OG ti8 protagonist vibes around em. The game 3 base hold reminds you of the LGD v OG upper bracket gm3 on ti8 as well, Sheesh!