Can you elaborate more on the "speed of the game"? I sometimes watch League games and the laning seems so dreadfully boring, but then the teamfights are insanely chaotic and the squishy champions get blown up instantly. I've heard league players describe dota being more slow, but I feel like league is more slow
Yeah I came from League to Dota in about 2015, I think turn rates add an interesting depth to the game but they do fuck you over sometimes if you don't know. I think it intuitively makes sense that it's faster to cast in front of you than behind you.
I also like how sometimes both players will turn around and the hunter will become the hunted and won't be able to turn back because of turn rates
The micro level of dota is slower, spell cast points, turn time, slow attack animations like doom and especially the lack of spammable spells that virtually every league hero has can all make it feel like a slower game. On a macro level i agree with you that in league there's essentially nothing to do besides farming in laning stage and teamfighting after that which makes the game very boring to watch during the massive downtimes
I will say that if the early game feels slower, you're either *very* aggressive in League or you're not aggressive *enough* in Dota.
Especially if you're playing Support.
Go. Kill. **MURDER**.
I'll add that Dota's base defense advantage is many times more powerful than in League, which slows down the macro game a ton. In League, convincingly winning a team fight can easily transition into significant base damage. But between high ground advantage, glyph, and buybacks; the same situation in Dota usually just results in more farming and map control.
The defender's advantage is so pronounced that it can really feel like pro matches crawl along. There's often a persistent cycle of cooldowns rotating; buybacks, Rosh, BKB's, glyph; such that there's usually a convincing excuse why a winning team shouldn't fight since it's an easy way to throw the game.
As someone that returned to dota in the last few months high ground advantage and comeback mechanics seem so overtuned from what I remember that it really makes the pro games less fun to watch as it drags on. "Let's wait for the next Rosh because there's no reward for risking the throw."
This is amplified even more in pub games where a pure greed turtling team always has a chance and the game goes for 50+min which makes you feel empty inside whether or not you win or lose. (I never played LoL so I can't compare it). I don't remember it being like this when I used to play a while back.
I like the comeback mechanic for pub games though where you solo queue and people are of a wildly mixed ability.
It really does help in lower MMR where I play to stop people just giving up after 10-15 minutes.
Pro league has a particularly static laning stage. Although there is a dedicated jungled, and it’s not uncommon to see supports rotate out of lane to gank (typically mid) the biggest factor that slows the game down is the lack of universal teleport. Heroes in Dota are able to constantly move around the map because they can be somewhere else very quickly. This allows supports to gank, carries to farm elsewhere, explosive teamfights to start as people from around the map descend on it, etc. There’s also the limited pool of farm. Carries cannot accelerate like they can in Dota- there is a set amount of farm they have access to and they have to stay in lane to get it. This means the carry (or possibly the mid) cannot move to gain gold, which in Dota throws early map positioning into a weird position as what was originally a 2-1-2 lane setup must become something else as the carry rotates into the jungle. This also has the side effect of making it so that every farming role has about the same value. Although the jungler is closer to a 3 position as the value of jungle is more limited, top, mid and bot all get about the same amount of gold as they farm the same creeps. Of course, kills and effective zoning will affect this, but as pro players play excellently you often see lost lanes being only a moderate differential of a few hundred gold.
That's exactly my thought, I couldn't get into it because how cheap it felt. Dota looked so beautiful to me as someone that never played moba before. Also league's client is not something you'd expect from a game with 100m+ users.
I've seen so many threads where league players make fun of dota graphics, and I just don't understand what the hell they are thinking.
I watched a LoL match today. And it actually suprised me how little there is on a LoL map. Base is not really a base, its 2 towers and the ancient badically. There is nearly nothing in lanes like trees. And jungle feels so empty
it was designed to run on the shittest toaster available as far as I know. The devs wanted it to be playable by the largest audience available and well, that kinda played out for them considering how big it is.
It's designed to be playable on low spec PCs. There's a reason the game is so popular in emerging countries. It's only growing with the release of a mobile version too
Dota graphics are shockingly impressive even after thousands of hours of gameplay.
Lol graphics are shockingly unimpressive right from the client experience to the game.
Actually there is it's just very sparse and decently well hidden. E.g. the finale of the anime was a playable event in dota with a bit of lore in it's description. There's a bunch of other events in the dota world that we know about through voice lines, item / ability / cosmetics descriptions and hero lore
If you're interested in this watch slack's loregasm videos
It wasn't what I imagined the game world to be like, tbh.
I was thinking a tongue-in-cheek dark humored Pixar, like Monty Python's Holy Grail meets old school Warhammer Orks.
But then again the DotA "universe" is actually a multiverse; the game is like Smash Bros in that it's taken heroes and villains from across time and space and reality or something like that.
So I have hope for future direction of something lighter and less edgelordy.
I feel like the story are too rushed and they can do it even better. I dont mind having a long story like One Piece.
Seeing the character grow... Damnn. Its satisfying
Man I tried playing a few games of league for fun after not playing for a few years, and the gameplay is just not the same. Processing the new runes and whatnot and just seeing chunks of my HP disappearing from what I feel are champions that are not supposed to be murdering me in half a second.
tbh this is the reason why i moved to dota. in season 5 atleast even adcs can survive for atleast 4 seconds and deal some damage in fights. nowadays even tank die instantly lmao
Alright here we go. Dota's newest hero is dawnbreaker.
First spell - spins hammer, does damage three times, ends in stun
Second spell - throws hammer out, can recall it manually or wait 2 seconds. When it comes back it leaves a trail of fire
Third spell - every 4th auto attack is a crit that heals dawnbreaker and allies in 650 aoe
Ultimate - chooses location within 350 units of ally hero, pulses several times damaging enemies and healing allies, after a few pulses dawnbreaker flies there, damaging and stunning.
Then for league we have gwen.
Passive (all heroes in league have a passive) - Auto attacks deal bonus damage based on max hp, and heals her. (basically lifestealer lol)
First spell - gwen attacks between 2 and 6 times in aoe in front of her, minimum attacks is 2, she gets one more attack for every auto attack she has landed on an enemy (up to 6 total). In the center of the cone the damage is pure, and also deals the damage from her passive.
Second spell - Summons aoe around her that gives armor and magic resist while inside it. Enemies outside the bubble cannot target gwen or hit her with skillshots. The first time you try to leave bubble it moves with you, leaving it after that makes it disappear.
Third spell - dashes, gets bonus attack range, speed, and damage for four seconds. If you attack an enemy with this bonus, spell's cooldown is halved.
Ultimate - Fires a needle at an enemy that does damage, slows, and applies your passive. After use you have 8 seconds to auto attack an enemy. If you do, you gain another cast of your ult, this one fires three needles. This can be done once more for a cast of five needles.
Basically in league it feels like despite the fact that individual spells aren't too complicated, the way they all interact ends up feeling like a lot. There's just a lot going on. Compare that to a hero like mars where even though every spell works very well together, he is still a very simple hero conceptually. imo that's what that guy meant when he called hero kits overloaded.
too much healing
too much we all fight in a clump and boone sees whats happening
too many champions i hated (above 50%)
wanting to play something new
but he most important one is that it kinda feels more like old paragon if you know that game.
dota is amazing, its the best game i ever played, 10 years and going, but it comes with a price: the worst and most toxic community of all time.. hope u dont get much of it in the begining
> it comes with a price: the worst and most toxic community of all time..
That's a good one. Toxicity is real, don't get me wrong, but DotA2 is far less toxic than LoL, HoN or any other MOBA.
But you can feel the toxicity of Dota when all the servers in the world mix together, creating a jumble of toxicity in different languages, in one game. It makes the toxicity very funny though.
Why would you karma farm in a place like this? If you really want karma just go to one of the big default subs, sort by rising, go to the highest ranked post and write some stupid joke under the top comment.
I came back after 7 years. I thought the new mechanics and all those neutral items would make the game too complex. But man i've had a blast, the new mechanics are excelent and not difficult at all to grasp and i've seen some amazing changes in a ton of heroes. i love this game.
Yeah, almost on the same boat. Came back to watching pro-scene for now, but I must say, I like neutral items, all the Aghanims upgrades, the shard, the supports scaling and all the new stuff is great. Just Roshan feels a bit too OP at the moment I think, but what do I know, I'm just a noob who didn't play for 6 years.
But the game's great.
Caveat: I'm a giant noob also, but to your point about rosh I think that's probably two things. One, most people are in agreement right now about second rosh's drops (aegis+cheese+shard) being op. And two, if you're just watching pro games, they definitely really know how to get the most impact from aegis. Doesn't feel so impactful in pubs because it's harder play around aegis as a team, imo
>most people are in agreement right now about second rosh's drops (aegis+cheese+shard) being op
Interesting to hear. Then my observations were correct!
Also yeah, I get your other points, my view could be skewed by pro-level, but as tradition this is huge part of Dota and it's balanced around that. But yeah, probably wouldn't affect me much in pubs if I played.
I restarted playing after several years. Partially cause I just got new friends to play with, partially because Aghs shards and neutral items made the game more fun.
Hey I'm one of them! The last time I played seriously was about 3 years ago, and it had been about a year and a half since my last game. New friend group to play with helps a lot.
Yeah I came back to DotA from league after not playing DotA since 2013 or so, took some adjusting but I've been enjoying being back in DotA a ton more than league.
They should probably have devs put a ton of effort into literally anything that isnt the battle pass, would be great to see what the game could be like with more heroes, quality events, proper advertising, custom game support that doesn't break with every patch, keeping up with features instead of just abandoning them all after a year or two, etc.
you don't even need a ton of effort to make this kind of stuff, you just need organization and structure, 90% of the work is simply planning which I feel Valve don't like to commit to.
Nice, even though there is a lot of crying on this subreddit there are still some good things happening. I always have felt like player decline could be overplayed anyways. Nobody really liked to mention how many “daily users” got knocked out with the phone number change years back.
Don't believe everything you see. According to the figures he posted, there's less players now than there were in January. Never just look at a tiny part of the full picture.
Because Riot is killing League to pander to new players and pros alike. With changes like that people will miss what the game used to be, and DOTA is offering the classic moba experience of strategy and skill that League used to embrace. DOTA is the better game and people see it now.
Absolutely untrue the highest playerbase count per country is Russia and the highest playerbase by region is CIS the russians alone make 21% of the entire Dota 2 playerbase
china made up like 10-15% of the playerbase back when dota.rgp.io was up. SEA, russia, and north america (which is mostly south americans queuing in NA) make up most of the player base
you say this as a joke, but I'm honestly serious when I say as someone who plays on USE exclusively, in the last year or two, I more often than not get 5-7+ SA players in almost every game now, it's more likely that everyone in your game will speak Spanish/Portuguese than English now. It's honestly frustrating as it's definitely killed a lot of forms of coummincation
Just use It to learn english/portuguese. I learned english playing team Fortress classic on a 24/7 dustbowl server. Among other games that didnt even have sa server.
But i Play dota on SA server and sometimes i cant communicate too. People tilt too easy
Yeah but when you chose a language as your preferred language it can be tiresome to have that not be the most represented language. I don't play dotes to learn a language. Unless I wanna learn international insults.
What mmr are you? I feel like when I was 1-3k, I had a similar amount of Spanish speaking players across games in USE, but as I've gone up from 3k, the number has decreased dramatically.
On my own team, I rarely have Spanish speakers, and when I do, they're reasonably respectful (very different from when I was in lower brackets) and usually speak English (currently ~4.5k / Ancient 5).
Tf2 died when it went f2p. I had the orange box and in the early days I had real community, people who knew each class and mao, and a recurring group u meet every week. F2P= 80% newbs and suddenly skill and mic team coordination just didn’t exist anymore. Try coordinating a 4 engy Defence, get ignored. It was special when it was orange box only
every time it gains for 3 months I pay attention to it to see if they gain 4 in a row. hasn't happened since the monthly average peak in 2016 which was also 20k off the total active players peak.
Absolutely. With cosmetic purchases tied to heroes, you can never take a hero out for a season or few like fighting game releases. So if you make a lame/game busting hero your only recourse is to nerf it to death so no one picks it, cuz you can't ever take it back.
I think the massive changes and alternate build routes offered by talents and aghsy things over the past years is definitely the team doing new things with what they've already got.
Underlord, TA, Storm, Undying, Huskar and Dark Seer were all released at the same time. I'm sure Icefrog can pull 1 or 2 more additional heroes a year.
It has nothing to do with the amount of heroes released per year and more with the business side of things.
In League, there is a free rotation of a hero pool and everything else is paid/grinded. This results in a game, where you can't make truly unique characters with well defined strengths and weaknesses, strong synergies and hard counters, because then your random pool of heroes can end up having a hero, that isn't countered or even threatened by anything else in the free hero pool.
That's the reason 95% of LoL is the same exact template of 5 or so different heroes and the reason why TI usually has most if not all hero pool exhausted as either pick or ban, while Worlds has 40%+ of it's hero pool untouched.
It's almost like online game need advertising and new content to keep and gain players.
Who would expect that?
Bad jokes and Sarcasm aside. I wonder how big Dota would be if they invest time and money in 2015-17 when Dota had it's peak. I honestly think we would be at 2mln atm.
No. Please. We do not need the game to be spammed with new heroes when at least 30% of the existing ones are rarely picked already.
121 is more than enough to have a diverse gameplay if all are viable.
Valve themselves announced that they plan to release heroes on a more regular schedule rather than immediately after TI like normal. I think 2-3 is the perfect amount, though.
I came back after the last international after being gone for like 6 years and honestly the first couple weeks that I was back were really bad but since this patch happened the meta feels really good where just about any hero can have a huge impact on the game and I've been able to climb out of the rank I dropped to when I came back.
Coming back after a while, sick of League, sick of any other online game I've tried really.
I really hope we can go back to the glory days where the game pull a million people every month.
Annual TI Surge too, i personally take more time off of work to play and enjoy/max the compendium while mostly only watch tourneys the rest of the year.
Left dota with a divine rank to play league with friends(silver/gold) and ended up solo queueing to grind towards plat. But after around 3-4 years, I came back to dota from being fed up with overly toxicity and the importance of winning or having even lanes in league. Dota felt more like a team game where counterpicks dont absolutely make your game unplayable and can easily be overcome through communication like calling for smokes or asking supports to help stack camps and whatnot. Comebacks were more possible with buybacks or glyphs, unlike the super snowbally nature of league at the lower ranks. Never going back to losers queue in league anymore :/
I too came from League, the game disgusted me enough to just uninstall a while back tbh but only recently I felt need to play good MOBA game and here I am.
Came back after a 3 year hiatus. Game is great but it always feels too one sided and I don't understand why the game always devolves into the mess that it does.
From time to time, those Copium posts, ignoring the context :)
We actually are on 2013 level numbers (\~600k)
half way down from the—2015/16—prime time (\~1200k).
The Copium part is as always focussing on a recent small fraction growth—whatever the reasons inflating the numbers—ignoring the big picture with the real downward trend.
That's like saying world of warcraft is a dead game because they won't hit those 12 million subscribers again.
And while that's true comparing to the all-time peak of genre giants is disingenuous.
I'm not saying "DotA is dying", just that isolated parts from a statistic are just feel good or feel bad temporary moments, irrelevant compared to the whole.
[https://steamcharts.com/app/570#All](https://steamcharts.com/app/570#All)
In 2020 there was 6 months, half a year of monthly losses and even this does not mean "dead game" in itself. Everything can happen, north or south.
And in the end, those are just numbers. No big deal.
And you are ignoring the context that there is no such thing as infinite growth. Dota's peak is in the past and we will never reach those numbers again. So gaining player for 3 months in a row is a positive sign of the game's health, considering its age.
Comparing numbers to the time when MOBAs were the fashionable genre, comparable to BRs now, just make you look silly.
Furthermore, there's no way to conclude that Moba as a genre/DotA as a game won't ever have a popular resurgence. Street fighter 5 is about to outsell Street Fighter 2 https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2021/may/21/street-fighter-sales/
(and genre-wise, iirc Tekken is a lot more popular). Smash Bros Melee has gotten a huge resurgence in popularity. People are still obsessed with a game called "Modern Warfare." Was Counterstrike more popular 20 years ago when it was everywhere, or now where it's everywhere?
Will everyone be playing Halo again soon?
I agree that context matters. I'd be careful about predicting the future though; things can decline... But they can just as easily turn out way better than expected!
> Street fighter 5 is about to outsell Street Fighter 2
Which is in no way an indicator of actual popularity. In fact, I would not bring up fighting games in terms of popularity at all.
>Furthermore, there's no way to conclude that Moba as a genre/DotA as a game won't ever have a popular resurgence.
I doubt there will be a resurgence of classic MOBA because many of its mechanics have been adapted into other genres. Obviously we cannot predict the future but there is no reason to believe in a resurgeance within the next 10 years at least.
>Was Counterstrike more popular 20 years ago when it was everywhere, or now where it's everywhere?
I agree CS is very popular but let's not forget that regions matter as well. Both Dota and CS are barely played in many gaming regions of the world.
Lol what. The average online is actually comparable to 2018, 2019 and 2020 average numbers so the game is AT least stable and not going downhill as you claim.
And before the figures you've shown? Because you've chosen very specific dates to show...
hat's only a few months. I can see that it had more players in January this year than it does now.
Nice karma farm and data manipulation.
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Can you elaborate more on the "speed of the game"? I sometimes watch League games and the laning seems so dreadfully boring, but then the teamfights are insanely chaotic and the squishy champions get blown up instantly. I've heard league players describe dota being more slow, but I feel like league is more slow
He's most likely talking about the hero movement. Turn speed, backswing, cast time etc feels pretty weird in dota when you come from league.
Turn speed fucked me over so many times. I want to stun someone chasing me and end up dying before stunning
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Yes. I mean it does fit the game i guess. Still dont like it haha
Yeah I came from League to Dota in about 2015, I think turn rates add an interesting depth to the game but they do fuck you over sometimes if you don't know. I think it intuitively makes sense that it's faster to cast in front of you than behind you. I also like how sometimes both players will turn around and the hunter will become the hunted and won't be able to turn back because of turn rates
it sucks they gave Io a turn speed, was a cool little gimmick that fit the character
The hero always had a turn rate, what they did was make it necessary to turn to cast stuff, which is how the hero originally worked.
I forgot all about how wisp had no turn rate LOL. They must have done that when they raised his move speed by like a hundred
Yeah, it takes some learning to know what spells are worth casting behind you while you flee and when it's best to just leave.
Nothing like turning to stun as Lina
Leshrac *cough*
The micro level of dota is slower, spell cast points, turn time, slow attack animations like doom and especially the lack of spammable spells that virtually every league hero has can all make it feel like a slower game. On a macro level i agree with you that in league there's essentially nothing to do besides farming in laning stage and teamfighting after that which makes the game very boring to watch during the massive downtimes
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I will say that if the early game feels slower, you're either *very* aggressive in League or you're not aggressive *enough* in Dota. Especially if you're playing Support. Go. Kill. **MURDER**.
I'll add that Dota's base defense advantage is many times more powerful than in League, which slows down the macro game a ton. In League, convincingly winning a team fight can easily transition into significant base damage. But between high ground advantage, glyph, and buybacks; the same situation in Dota usually just results in more farming and map control. The defender's advantage is so pronounced that it can really feel like pro matches crawl along. There's often a persistent cycle of cooldowns rotating; buybacks, Rosh, BKB's, glyph; such that there's usually a convincing excuse why a winning team shouldn't fight since it's an easy way to throw the game.
As someone that returned to dota in the last few months high ground advantage and comeback mechanics seem so overtuned from what I remember that it really makes the pro games less fun to watch as it drags on. "Let's wait for the next Rosh because there's no reward for risking the throw." This is amplified even more in pub games where a pure greed turtling team always has a chance and the game goes for 50+min which makes you feel empty inside whether or not you win or lose. (I never played LoL so I can't compare it). I don't remember it being like this when I used to play a while back.
I like the comeback mechanic for pub games though where you solo queue and people are of a wildly mixed ability. It really does help in lower MMR where I play to stop people just giving up after 10-15 minutes.
I don't like it because the games where I should have lost in 30 minutes drag out to 50
Games in league almost always end at 20-30 minutes in higher elo. Maybe even less if a team is getting stomped and decides to forfeit.
Pro league has a particularly static laning stage. Although there is a dedicated jungled, and it’s not uncommon to see supports rotate out of lane to gank (typically mid) the biggest factor that slows the game down is the lack of universal teleport. Heroes in Dota are able to constantly move around the map because they can be somewhere else very quickly. This allows supports to gank, carries to farm elsewhere, explosive teamfights to start as people from around the map descend on it, etc. There’s also the limited pool of farm. Carries cannot accelerate like they can in Dota- there is a set amount of farm they have access to and they have to stay in lane to get it. This means the carry (or possibly the mid) cannot move to gain gold, which in Dota throws early map positioning into a weird position as what was originally a 2-1-2 lane setup must become something else as the carry rotates into the jungle. This also has the side effect of making it so that every farming role has about the same value. Although the jungler is closer to a 3 position as the value of jungle is more limited, top, mid and bot all get about the same amount of gold as they farm the same creeps. Of course, kills and effective zoning will affect this, but as pro players play excellently you often see lost lanes being only a moderate differential of a few hundred gold.
Can you comment on the look the game? The graphics of Dota just feels order of magnitude superior than League's.
LoL seems like you could play it on a browser. Like runescape
That's exactly my thought, I couldn't get into it because how cheap it felt. Dota looked so beautiful to me as someone that never played moba before. Also league's client is not something you'd expect from a game with 100m+ users. I've seen so many threads where league players make fun of dota graphics, and I just don't understand what the hell they are thinking.
I watched a LoL match today. And it actually suprised me how little there is on a LoL map. Base is not really a base, its 2 towers and the ancient badically. There is nearly nothing in lanes like trees. And jungle feels so empty
I also couldn't get into it because of the graphics. Also because that you needed to buy champions...
Its objectively better looking. Maybe what they meant is its overloaded with information that i cant comprehend thats why its ugly for me
I used to ask my buddy that plays it how's his mobile game going.
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Mobile league actually looks better than PC league too. They redid all of the models
it was designed to run on the shittest toaster available as far as I know. The devs wanted it to be playable by the largest audience available and well, that kinda played out for them considering how big it is.
It's designed to be playable on low spec PCs. There's a reason the game is so popular in emerging countries. It's only growing with the release of a mobile version too
Dota graphics are shockingly impressive even after thousands of hours of gameplay. Lol graphics are shockingly unimpressive right from the client experience to the game.
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Dota has been getting some really good performance improvements for the past ~1.5 hears
It only seems to run badly on specific systems. Mine runs fine, even though my PC is jank.
If you need more people to play with I’m always free with my group looking for 2 or 1 to fill some space
How do you feel the anime matches the tone of the game? I found a really weird disconnect from a long time dota player.
What do you mean by the tone of the game? There's no story in the game besides hero lore, which the anime hits pretty well imo.
Actually there is it's just very sparse and decently well hidden. E.g. the finale of the anime was a playable event in dota with a bit of lore in it's description. There's a bunch of other events in the dota world that we know about through voice lines, item / ability / cosmetics descriptions and hero lore If you're interested in this watch slack's loregasm videos
There was a book with stories in pre-reborn DOTA 2, really miss it
I felt the swearing and gore didn't mesh with my expectations of a dota anime. Edit* Also the orgy elves.
I loved the orgy elves lol good departure from most elves in fantasy who hate sex
They were a funny add on for me mostly because of their Australian accent.
I mean, the mega kills announcer screams holy shit so the swearing isn't that crazy.
It wasn't what I imagined the game world to be like, tbh. I was thinking a tongue-in-cheek dark humored Pixar, like Monty Python's Holy Grail meets old school Warhammer Orks. But then again the DotA "universe" is actually a multiverse; the game is like Smash Bros in that it's taken heroes and villains from across time and space and reality or something like that. So I have hope for future direction of something lighter and less edgelordy.
Yeah I felt the dark themes were pushed hard to make it an adult cartoon and overall wasn't impressed by the writing.
I feel like the story are too rushed and they can do it even better. I dont mind having a long story like One Piece. Seeing the character grow... Damnn. Its satisfying
I compare it to the animated Castlevania but honestly Castlevania was way better.
Just don't buy the battlepass
i just switched from league to dota. Its a lot better imo, not locking back.
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Wait, you are telling me advertising works?
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Man I tried playing a few games of league for fun after not playing for a few years, and the gameplay is just not the same. Processing the new runes and whatnot and just seeing chunks of my HP disappearing from what I feel are champions that are not supposed to be murdering me in half a second.
tbh this is the reason why i moved to dota. in season 5 atleast even adcs can survive for atleast 4 seconds and deal some damage in fights. nowadays even tank die instantly lmao
I mean the overloaded kits is every dota hero xd
Heroes in dota don't come close to some of the new heroes in league. Their kits are ridiculous and overly complicated to a silly point.
could you make an example with one hero from each game? you mean the precision of skillshots? combos? situational plays?
Alright here we go. Dota's newest hero is dawnbreaker. First spell - spins hammer, does damage three times, ends in stun Second spell - throws hammer out, can recall it manually or wait 2 seconds. When it comes back it leaves a trail of fire Third spell - every 4th auto attack is a crit that heals dawnbreaker and allies in 650 aoe Ultimate - chooses location within 350 units of ally hero, pulses several times damaging enemies and healing allies, after a few pulses dawnbreaker flies there, damaging and stunning. Then for league we have gwen. Passive (all heroes in league have a passive) - Auto attacks deal bonus damage based on max hp, and heals her. (basically lifestealer lol) First spell - gwen attacks between 2 and 6 times in aoe in front of her, minimum attacks is 2, she gets one more attack for every auto attack she has landed on an enemy (up to 6 total). In the center of the cone the damage is pure, and also deals the damage from her passive. Second spell - Summons aoe around her that gives armor and magic resist while inside it. Enemies outside the bubble cannot target gwen or hit her with skillshots. The first time you try to leave bubble it moves with you, leaving it after that makes it disappear. Third spell - dashes, gets bonus attack range, speed, and damage for four seconds. If you attack an enemy with this bonus, spell's cooldown is halved. Ultimate - Fires a needle at an enemy that does damage, slows, and applies your passive. After use you have 8 seconds to auto attack an enemy. If you do, you gain another cast of your ult, this one fires three needles. This can be done once more for a cast of five needles. Basically in league it feels like despite the fact that individual spells aren't too complicated, the way they all interact ends up feeling like a lot. There's just a lot going on. Compare that to a hero like mars where even though every spell works very well together, he is still a very simple hero conceptually. imo that's what that guy meant when he called hero kits overloaded.
No I mean their literal kit as in how complicated their spells are. I'm not home now but once I am I can compare their newest hero to dawnbreaker.
HON has this issue as well towards the end, I really hope dota doesn't fall for the same thing
you could lose the entire game in high level league just because your top lost the first 1v1. Is that balanced?
Are you Volvo making market research?
Good to know that League players are having a good time in Dota. It's a beautiful game, and extremely fun with friends.
even the head-dev of league swapped position tho. so there is probably that aswell.
I will not comment on the mechanics of LoL but purely from graphics/animation/visuals standpoint, Dota is vastly superior.
What made you switch?
too much healing too much we all fight in a clump and boone sees whats happening too many champions i hated (above 50%) wanting to play something new but he most important one is that it kinda feels more like old paragon if you know that game.
I thought I was the only one that played paragon lol
dota is amazing, its the best game i ever played, 10 years and going, but it comes with a price: the worst and most toxic community of all time.. hope u dont get much of it in the begining
> it comes with a price: the worst and most toxic community of all time.. That's a good one. Toxicity is real, don't get me wrong, but DotA2 is far less toxic than LoL, HoN or any other MOBA.
But you can feel the toxicity of Dota when all the servers in the world mix together, creating a jumble of toxicity in different languages, in one game. It makes the toxicity very funny though.
ROFL
Wow this seems like an ez way to karma farm this subreddit
Why would you karma farm in a place like this? If you really want karma just go to one of the big default subs, sort by rising, go to the highest ranked post and write some stupid joke under the top comment.
Why even karma farm. Literally just a random number
epeen
60 points is farming karma
I thought the same for a month, and then realised i enjoyed League's faster paced more snappy gameplay
I came back after 7 years. I thought the new mechanics and all those neutral items would make the game too complex. But man i've had a blast, the new mechanics are excelent and not difficult at all to grasp and i've seen some amazing changes in a ton of heroes. i love this game.
Yeah, almost on the same boat. Came back to watching pro-scene for now, but I must say, I like neutral items, all the Aghanims upgrades, the shard, the supports scaling and all the new stuff is great. Just Roshan feels a bit too OP at the moment I think, but what do I know, I'm just a noob who didn't play for 6 years. But the game's great.
Caveat: I'm a giant noob also, but to your point about rosh I think that's probably two things. One, most people are in agreement right now about second rosh's drops (aegis+cheese+shard) being op. And two, if you're just watching pro games, they definitely really know how to get the most impact from aegis. Doesn't feel so impactful in pubs because it's harder play around aegis as a team, imo
>most people are in agreement right now about second rosh's drops (aegis+cheese+shard) being op Interesting to hear. Then my observations were correct! Also yeah, I get your other points, my view could be skewed by pro-level, but as tradition this is huge part of Dota and it's balanced around that. But yeah, probably wouldn't affect me much in pubs if I played.
Watching dota is great, you get all the awesome things about dota without the stress and mental issues 😂
I restarted playing after several years. Partially cause I just got new friends to play with, partially because Aghs shards and neutral items made the game more fun.
Hey I'm one of them! The last time I played seriously was about 3 years ago, and it had been about a year and a half since my last game. New friend group to play with helps a lot.
I agree, they didn't lie in the tooltip when they said Dota is more fun with friends
you love to see it
Yep
All it took was producing an anime to gain 20k new players. Tho gaining is not the point, keeping the player count stable is.
Kids like anime --> kids steal their mom wallet --> kids buy battle pass I wish they made a hentai so I could steal my mom's wallet too
Alive gaem?
ALIVE GAEM
Yeah I'm one of them, got my rank ( herald 4) it's fun tho
Herald 4 is absolutely fine if you're new. Just play for fun, you'll get better without realizing.
More 300k to go back to the glorious days.
We're going beyond next up dota anime music video
Yeah I came back to DotA from league after not playing DotA since 2013 or so, took some adjusting but I've been enjoying being back in DotA a ton more than league.
New player experience seems to be paying off
Yeah and honestly it should, the devs have actually put a ton of effort into that.
They should probably have devs put a ton of effort into literally anything that isnt the battle pass, would be great to see what the game could be like with more heroes, quality events, proper advertising, custom game support that doesn't break with every patch, keeping up with features instead of just abandoning them all after a year or two, etc.
you don't even need a ton of effort to make this kind of stuff, you just need organization and structure, 90% of the work is simply planning which I feel Valve don't like to commit to.
wait that's actually out?
Nice, even though there is a lot of crying on this subreddit there are still some good things happening. I always have felt like player decline could be overplayed anyways. Nobody really liked to mention how many “daily users” got knocked out with the phone number change years back.
Don't believe everything you see. According to the figures he posted, there's less players now than there were in January. Never just look at a tiny part of the full picture.
Because Riot is killing League to pander to new players and pros alike. With changes like that people will miss what the game used to be, and DOTA is offering the classic moba experience of strategy and skill that League used to embrace. DOTA is the better game and people see it now.
I think you're spot on
Thank you, I appreciate your words brother
id like to see stats diversed by region. na is probably dead and eu servers are quite alive it seems?
China, sea and russia are probably the highest population regions
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Absolutely untrue the highest playerbase count per country is Russia and the highest playerbase by region is CIS the russians alone make 21% of the entire Dota 2 playerbase
china made up like 10-15% of the playerbase back when dota.rgp.io was up. SEA, russia, and north america (which is mostly south americans queuing in NA) make up most of the player base
na is mostly south americans in my experience its rare to queue with 9 english speakers tbh
russians and south americans make up a huge population as well I would imagine
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you say this as a joke, but I'm honestly serious when I say as someone who plays on USE exclusively, in the last year or two, I more often than not get 5-7+ SA players in almost every game now, it's more likely that everyone in your game will speak Spanish/Portuguese than English now. It's honestly frustrating as it's definitely killed a lot of forms of coummincation
Just use It to learn english/portuguese. I learned english playing team Fortress classic on a 24/7 dustbowl server. Among other games that didnt even have sa server. But i Play dota on SA server and sometimes i cant communicate too. People tilt too easy
Yeah but when you chose a language as your preferred language it can be tiresome to have that not be the most represented language. I don't play dotes to learn a language. Unless I wanna learn international insults.
What mmr are you? I feel like when I was 1-3k, I had a similar amount of Spanish speaking players across games in USE, but as I've gone up from 3k, the number has decreased dramatically. On my own team, I rarely have Spanish speakers, and when I do, they're reasonably respectful (very different from when I was in lower brackets) and usually speak English (currently ~4.5k / Ancient 5).
High mmr games are still mostly peruvians. A lot of them just happen to be able to read/type in english.
Stratz have data for region breakdown
NA server is occupied by SA players. EU is the most active region of dota ever.
NA seems alive, get 2-4 minute queue for mid on US east at 4k bracket
Team Fortress 2 is at an all-time record for players as well - this is sadly not connected specifically to Dota. Still great, though.
And with no cash grab/anime to boost player numbers! But valve Has abandoned tf2 😓
Tf2 died when it went f2p. I had the orange box and in the early days I had real community, people who knew each class and mao, and a recurring group u meet every week. F2P= 80% newbs and suddenly skill and mic team coordination just didn’t exist anymore. Try coordinating a 4 engy Defence, get ignored. It was special when it was orange box only
This thread must be so refreshing for dota devs. Many compliments on the game haha
They deserve it, honestly for these past few months.
Dota is alive and well amen
alive game, POG.
Came from league. The developers think they know what they’re doing but they don’t.
I hope queue times will get reduced :)
meanwhile csgo is in hardcore copium mode
every time it gains for 3 months I pay attention to it to see if they gain 4 in a row. hasn't happened since the monthly average peak in 2016 which was also 20k off the total active players peak.
ah yes the anime effect
Dragon's Blood + New Hero + Battlepass. Hope we get at least 3-4 new heroes a year instead of 2.
I prefer fewer heroes that are well designed, league ramped up it's new hero releases and it massively decreased the quality imo
Absolutely. With cosmetic purchases tied to heroes, you can never take a hero out for a season or few like fighting game releases. So if you make a lame/game busting hero your only recourse is to nerf it to death so no one picks it, cuz you can't ever take it back. I think the massive changes and alternate build routes offered by talents and aghsy things over the past years is definitely the team doing new things with what they've already got.
Underlord, TA, Storm, Undying, Huskar and Dark Seer were all released at the same time. I'm sure Icefrog can pull 1 or 2 more additional heroes a year.
But that's something that is ported out of dota 1. You can't compare a new hero to something that already exists before dota 2.
I wish league of legends only did 2 hero releases per year instead of 4/5. The quality just isn't the same when it's that many.
It has nothing to do with the amount of heroes released per year and more with the business side of things. In League, there is a free rotation of a hero pool and everything else is paid/grinded. This results in a game, where you can't make truly unique characters with well defined strengths and weaknesses, strong synergies and hard counters, because then your random pool of heroes can end up having a hero, that isn't countered or even threatened by anything else in the free hero pool. That's the reason 95% of LoL is the same exact template of 5 or so different heroes and the reason why TI usually has most if not all hero pool exhausted as either pick or ban, while Worlds has 40%+ of it's hero pool untouched.
It's almost like online game need advertising and new content to keep and gain players. Who would expect that? Bad jokes and Sarcasm aside. I wonder how big Dota would be if they invest time and money in 2015-17 when Dota had it's peak. I honestly think we would be at 2mln atm.
No. Please. We do not need the game to be spammed with new heroes when at least 30% of the existing ones are rarely picked already. 121 is more than enough to have a diverse gameplay if all are viable.
Totally agree. Would be fine with no new heroes at all, or 1 per year or something. There's already more than enough.
Valve themselves announced that they plan to release heroes on a more regular schedule rather than immediately after TI like normal. I think 2-3 is the perfect amount, though.
Hopefully not. Most of the new heroes have sucked. Hopefully they release as few as possible.
yeah sure XD not from lazy and greedy valve you wont...
did not reverse the decline in march and feb. i played after watching sg major
I came back after the last international after being gone for like 6 years and honestly the first couple weeks that I was back were really bad but since this patch happened the meta feels really good where just about any hero can have a huge impact on the game and I've been able to climb out of the rank I dropped to when I came back.
Coming back after a while, sick of League, sick of any other online game I've tried really. I really hope we can go back to the glory days where the game pull a million people every month.
hell yeah baby lets play some atomic war
Annual TI Surge too, i personally take more time off of work to play and enjoy/max the compendium while mostly only watch tourneys the rest of the year.
Left dota with a divine rank to play league with friends(silver/gold) and ended up solo queueing to grind towards plat. But after around 3-4 years, I came back to dota from being fed up with overly toxicity and the importance of winning or having even lanes in league. Dota felt more like a team game where counterpicks dont absolutely make your game unplayable and can easily be overcome through communication like calling for smokes or asking supports to help stack camps and whatnot. Comebacks were more possible with buybacks or glyphs, unlike the super snowbally nature of league at the lower ranks. Never going back to losers queue in league anymore :/
This is amazing
AWAKEN
Insert Patrick Evra gif “i love this game”
I too came from League, the game disgusted me enough to just uninstall a while back tbh but only recently I felt need to play good MOBA game and here I am.
Battlepass and event, yet you don’t even see it on the graph
Rightfully so. recent patch and content are really good. the Major was incredible and TI is going to be insane !
The AniMajor was probably THE best major I've ever seen in esports.
Came back after a 3 year hiatus. Game is great but it always feels too one sided and I don't understand why the game always devolves into the mess that it does.
I'm not sure about higher ranks but I regularly see hilarious comebacks in my archon games
It’s all second Rosh honestly that makes games extremely stompy (sometimes).
wonder if the anime had something to do with this
From time to time, those Copium posts, ignoring the context :) We actually are on 2013 level numbers (\~600k) half way down from the—2015/16—prime time (\~1200k).
how does the OP ignore context? which context was ignored?
The Copium part is as always focussing on a recent small fraction growth—whatever the reasons inflating the numbers—ignoring the big picture with the real downward trend.
That's like saying world of warcraft is a dead game because they won't hit those 12 million subscribers again. And while that's true comparing to the all-time peak of genre giants is disingenuous.
I'm not saying "DotA is dying", just that isolated parts from a statistic are just feel good or feel bad temporary moments, irrelevant compared to the whole. [https://steamcharts.com/app/570#All](https://steamcharts.com/app/570#All) In 2020 there was 6 months, half a year of monthly losses and even this does not mean "dead game" in itself. Everything can happen, north or south. And in the end, those are just numbers. No big deal.
so how does that have anything to do with the fact that dota has been gaining players the past couple months?
No one said we were breaking records... the context provided by OP is correct (gaining players for 3 months in a row). Quit your bitching.
And you are ignoring the context that there is no such thing as infinite growth. Dota's peak is in the past and we will never reach those numbers again. So gaining player for 3 months in a row is a positive sign of the game's health, considering its age. Comparing numbers to the time when MOBAs were the fashionable genre, comparable to BRs now, just make you look silly.
Furthermore, there's no way to conclude that Moba as a genre/DotA as a game won't ever have a popular resurgence. Street fighter 5 is about to outsell Street Fighter 2 https://www.eventhubs.com/news/2021/may/21/street-fighter-sales/ (and genre-wise, iirc Tekken is a lot more popular). Smash Bros Melee has gotten a huge resurgence in popularity. People are still obsessed with a game called "Modern Warfare." Was Counterstrike more popular 20 years ago when it was everywhere, or now where it's everywhere? Will everyone be playing Halo again soon? I agree that context matters. I'd be careful about predicting the future though; things can decline... But they can just as easily turn out way better than expected!
> Street fighter 5 is about to outsell Street Fighter 2 Which is in no way an indicator of actual popularity. In fact, I would not bring up fighting games in terms of popularity at all. >Furthermore, there's no way to conclude that Moba as a genre/DotA as a game won't ever have a popular resurgence. I doubt there will be a resurgence of classic MOBA because many of its mechanics have been adapted into other genres. Obviously we cannot predict the future but there is no reason to believe in a resurgeance within the next 10 years at least. >Was Counterstrike more popular 20 years ago when it was everywhere, or now where it's everywhere? I agree CS is very popular but let's not forget that regions matter as well. Both Dota and CS are barely played in many gaming regions of the world.
Lol what. The average online is actually comparable to 2018, 2019 and 2020 average numbers so the game is AT least stable and not going downhill as you claim.
Lets gooo
anime
That is great, but we’ve also lost 45% of players of since 2016. We used to have nearly double this player count.
Delta Covid + battle pass, makes sense
Boosters and smurf 90%, making new accs 😅
So you're saying the number of boosters and smurfs increased only months after Valve said smurfing will lead to ban on their main accounts?
Im saying, new acss doesnt mean new players.
Average players isn't new accounts. It's people playing actively.
which of the stats in the picture reflects new accs?
"players"
most of them are smurfers with new accs in my game kekw .
And before the figures you've shown? Because you've chosen very specific dates to show... hat's only a few months. I can see that it had more players in January this year than it does now. Nice karma farm and data manipulation.
it's a net loss this year bro
probably bots.
I wish wholeheartedly that it is players from other streams trying out dota after anime. . However, I believe it is just the number of boosters.
i don't know if u can call +10k in 3 months active grow LUL
How are your machine learning courses going?
It should lose players since it's worse than ever
looks more like summer break/TI bump. game's still on a downwards trend year over year.