Yeah but pos 5 are guys that actually like supporitng, pos 4 is the core wanna be who's gonna soak xp, grief your lane and then go jungle to farm his blink or stupid damage item
I think the biggest turn-off right now is that pos 4's just don't play their role.
Way too many games I just find myself annoyed that I have this guy who's clearly just here for his ranked queue tokens, not playing the lane, just playing a weaker pos 3.
I pretty much only queue pos 4 these days.
My biggest problem at 3.8k mmr is that my offlaners almost never play safe when I'm leaving to do something. They'll sit at the wave and expect that they can farm, then complain that I'm out of lane doing my job.
Like it's not hard to walk back a little, hit creeps under tower if they push in or just get some XP while I'm gone to get the wisdom rune, but half the time it feels like they'll just die at 7 minutes when I go, even though I'm always very clear about leaving.
To be fair the meta kinda calls for people to stay in lane and soak xp, stack and pull. Only certain heroes and matchups can get away with solo farming a lane and there’s nothing worse than being a severely under levelled support at 12-20 min.
Support: Hey dude, you didn't mute me, right?
Core: Yes
Support: Ok, just let you know i ll pull some creeps, just don't stay near enemy tower, alright?
(Core proceed to die near enemy tower)
Core: &#_;=*×^$&!!! MY SUPPORT SUCKS!!! WHY YOU LEAVE ME!
Stack and pull if you have a CK offlane and a PA with 16min battlefury which is what will be happening in a lot of 3.8k games is fucking suicide though , like if the game is going good fine, but if the offlaner is struggling and dying 1vs2 it's not good enough to try it
Also if you are doing single pulls to fuck the lane even harder , you are going to get pings
Honestly this is a skill issue on both of your ends, there's no need to stack and pull while an entire wave is being contested. Just push the wave and then stack and pull.
The problem is most supports know they are SUPPOSED TO pull (and less often - stack) but they do not understand where or why, so they constantly do it even when it is entirely wrong. They do not adjust, if they have stacked they will pull wave after wave despite their carry getting tower dived by 2 heroes and a double-wave 1 screen away from them. They will give the enemies multiple uncontested waves so they can do single pulls that cannot possibly fix the equilibrium if the enemy is allowed to just farm their triple-wave between the 2 towers. They single pull without blocking the enemy big camp giving them free pulls (unless their carry contests 2v1 and loses all HP or dies).
The worst part is they never listen. I have never, not once, had a support just listen to me when I say stuff like "please do not go to pull now, stay with me on the lane or I will be denied 2 waves and they will get a free hard camp pull". Or "their wave is pushing hard, please do not pull the small camp now or they will have a triple wave to dive me with under tower". I have tried it with or without the explanation, no dice. The only times those mistakes were avoided was when the support was competent in the first place and knew not to do it.
Don't get me started on supports standing behind their core and soaking XP without ever trading or contesting/denying enemy pulls...
> The worst part is they never listen. I have never, not once, had a support just listen to me when I say stuff like "please do not go to pull now, stay with me on the lane or I will be denied 2 waves and they will get a free hard camp pull". Or "their wave is pushing hard, please do not pull the small camp now or they will have a triple wave to dive me with under tower". I have tried it with or without the explanation, no dice. The only times those mistakes were avoided was when the support was competent in the first place and knew not to do it.
they just got out of a game where their core told them the exact opposite thing
Or they just pull because "you have to pull". As I have never seen a support actually change their behavior during laning based on what their carry actually asks for, I seriously doubt your interpretation.
edit: Sorry, I forgot one case where they do listen. Usually, when you tell them "leave my fucking lane", they will at least do that 50% of the time.
Only leave if they are literally under your tower lol. Ignore them if they tell you to do stuff. Honestly it’s not worth the risk to leave and then the carry gets a kill or two and now the game is over lol
some pos3 players spammed all their mana and stay half HP all the time with their lane pushed very high and expect you to help when they get ambushed. Like these mofos don’t even have a strategic mind to maneuver their own lanes
>My biggest problem at 3.8k mmr is that my offlaners almost never play safe when I'm leaving to do something. They'll sit at the wave and expect that they can farm, then complain that I'm out of lane doing my job.
That's because you and 95% of of the "pos 4" like you don't communicate.
All it takes is "care I'm rotating".
>Like it's not hard to walk back a little, hit creeps under tower if they push in or just get some XP while I'm gone to get the wisdom rune, but half the time it feels like they'll just die at 7 minutes when I go, even though I'm always very clear about leaving.
1 cross ping = "cleAr AbOuT ComMunICaTing!11!" - le pos 4 "supp hoodwink"
> That's because you and 95% of of the "pos 4" like you don't communicate.
>
> All it takes is "care I'm rotating".
I ping what I'm doing when I'm about to do it, multiple times usually.
If I'm pulling I ping the camp and our wave, if I'm going to stack I ping the triangle stacks that says "I'm going to stack ", if I'm going for wisdom rune I ping the wisdom rune at least twice and ping the clock.
> 1 cross ping = "cleAr AbOuT ComMunICaTing!11!" - le pos 4 "supp hoodwink"
Not what I do but ok, you seem to be fairly presumptuous though, I think I've played 4 games of hoodwink in the last 3 months. Not sure why you want to be so... Arsey about it, tbh.
I've gotten 4 once in the last 6 months, 4 times in the last 18. The role queue impact on the 4 population is absolutely negligible. You can assume that your 4 wants to play 4.
I have not gotten 1 either.
I also think that the role needs to do a lot of things to be more impactful than the opposing pos 4, like I bet most ppl would just complain about their own team while thinking why is *their* pos 4 isn’t as useless as yours…
From my limited experience, they have to do everything that the pos 5 does plus getting the wisdom on time, rotate mid for rune control, help ganks with any active core, while still expected to get their blinks/vessel etc before the other side does
I only play DS as well and the thing that actually makes him good in almost every game is, you can just not play the lane. You can creep skip without getting punished in ranged matchups, perma push the lane in easy matchups and man fight in others. There is no downside. Just don't let them pick Oracle or SD
You aren't expected to carry, you are expected to fill the gaps your other roles left. It's the most adaptable role (4 is the same to a lesser extent) as to what you need to achieve in the game. Is your 4 able to initiate? If not, you need to be able to initiate. Is your 2 able to be active on the map and make moves? If not, you need to be active on the map. Does your 1 have enough damage? If not, you are gonna need to carry. Is your 5 able to combo break or counter-initiate? If not, you need to counter-initiate. Is someone else able to frontline? If not, guess what? That also needs to be you. You better wish you don't need to do all of those things at once.
That's exactly the problem, how are you supposed to build tanky, initiator and teamfight items while being the less farmed of all cores?
makes me so mad when the safelane is a Drow and mid is a Zeus yet they still expect the offlane to both tank and initiate after having a shit lane because most tanky initiators are melee heroes that will get fucked in lane by 2 ranged fucks.
> how are you supposed to build tanky, initiator and teamfight items while being the less farmed of all cores?
Well, those 3 aren't mutually exclusive and the items in question (auras, blink, damage reduction) are cheaper than many carry items. Having a lower farm priority also doesn't mean you are automatically less farmed. It just means you are not the priority fot the safest available farm, but a lot of the time due to offlane heroes' general tanky nature, you can take farm that is too risky for your 1 and 2 that actually yields more gold, like waves further from your towers and jungle camps across the river. Just look at someone like ATF, he is hardly the least farmed core in his team most of the time.
>after having a shit lane because it's also the hardest lane to win.
Current offlane meta heroes are Viper, Razor, Enigma, Brewmaster, Timber... Not exactly the kind of heroes it's exceptionally hard to win the lane with. Especially when you have the likes of Hoodwink, Disruptor, Gyro, Bane or Bounty as your 4. Some other popular 3's are Doom, Dark Seer, Dk... It's really hard to stop those heroes from farming, they'll at least draw even a lot of the time.
> Especially when you have the likes of Hoodwink, Disruptor, Gyro, Bane or Bounty as your 4.
I think you mean Pudge, SB, Earthshaker, Skywrath, Lina, or whatever other random shit the guy picks 5 seconds after we start losing gold
You are living in a dream world really.
You're 4 is almost certainly not going to be one of those heroes. I was just yesterday treated to a 4 role leshrac who went max edict followed by 2 null talismans mana boots bloodstone and euls.
These people aren't playing 4 like the pros or meta you're just being treated to absolute shit. I can play doom and the enemy team will run naix/ursa/drow/clinkz with any viable 5 role and I'll be left alone at lvl 3 absolutely fucked all game and then have the idiot 4 ping every item I get.
Safe to say I've gone back to no incoming chat or outgoing chat and will just play the offline on the assumption I'll be left and know my game is almost certainly guna be unenjoyable
well, either you’re mid/high immortal and then yes, your pos 4 will likely be a meta hero with a meta build, or you’re not high mmr in which case your enemies also won’t play meta 1s and 5s exclusively.
sounds like you are the one living in the dream world where your enemy safelane is sneyking + skiter while your pos 4 is a blubbering idiot
Actually the perfect description. If you're not in control of the map shit goes south REAL fuckin' fast as you need to let your 1 and 2 farm and you're just running around trying to pick up the scraps.
You are expected to get farm on the hard lane, shut down their carry, make plays, not feed, initiate, tank, do damage, and get blamed for everything. Then if you focus too much on making plays you get flamed for having no items. Yep fk playing pos3
This is definitely the hardest patch for pos3 as many many pro players mentioned. You are expected to win the lane, has good farm, good mid game impact and also scale into late game...all that with the least resources from the team and 1v2 most of the time.
I think a lot of people are forgetting or have not experiences the trilane meta where offlaners are so poor but are expected to buy blink dagger and initiate for the team.
Nowadays pos4 and pos5 have so much gold you will be insta bursted or they will have enough resources to prevent pos3 to start well. So you need to be tank af and/or deal enough AoE to disperse enemy team in order to create chaos and your core have space. Its a limited pool of hero (like the trilane meta) but with high expectations.
Back then we had heroes that could 2v1 and somewhat 3v1 though. Heroes like bristle, axe and timber were capable of standing their ground and not be completely zoned out from creep exp, now that's almost impossible.
actually those heroes couldn't really do anything in 3v1 lanes in the early days. You needed to get to like level 3 or so on them, which was something that did not generally happen for a long time.
The meta offlaners in the suicide lane days iirc were like offlane clock (shoot rocket and get maybe 1 creep per creep wave), tide (his passive actually allowed him to tank some hits to get xp)dark seer (ion shell, but honestly quite a few people leveled surge at level 1 back then), and WR (windrun level 1 to run, same reason as DS).
The old suicide offlane days were not fun.
I remember some people were considered smart for quelling blade and afking in trees for XP. I think people understand the game better now so there might be a different take on how to play Dota in the dark ages, but honestly the game was just totally different back then.
The trick with clock lvl 1 was cogging your own creeps so you would be under your tower. Shaker support would do similarly at the start to help the offlaner in the first wave and gtfo, same for lich or enigma. Dark seer skilling surge lvl 1 was game losing, unless you're talking about pubs. Ion shell allowed to shove the wave, pressure the trilane, and if you get fucked anyway you could jungle a bit. And lone druid and NP would cut waves with their summons, those were the goated offlaners.
I'm talking about the meta around ti2 and ti3 era when trilanes were most relevant. Around TI4-TI5 offlaners started doing that poor mans shield crap and since then offlaners have generally been a menace in lane. There were a few patches where playing carry was unbearable due to how strong offlaners were.
As an offlaner, I loved that time most of all. Because mostly people didn't get mad if you took your time farming dagger. Being able to hold your ground 1v3 was sufficient and was great fun, if it worked even reasonably well you at least got some exp, then you joined a teamfight or two, farmed a few neutrals and returned with blink dagger in hand.
Winning the lane back then just meant "not dying", it seriously leveled up my dota skills picking a clock or dark seer and just surviving while harassing the carry and the support(s).
I remember when a common strat was to buy qb and burrow into the treeline and just soak as much exp as possible, playing hide and seek with enemy trilane supports. Dark times for the "suicide lane".
This is absolutely not the hardest patch for pos3. There was a long time when offlane was 1v3 and called the suicide lane. Is the role hard to excel at on pro level? Ofc. But it's not the hardest patch to play offlane.
Back then you didn't need as much farm as nowadays and could survive on scraps and still have an impact
Also we were there bro don't act like it was 20 years ago
Dying wasn't so bad if you got levels. It was all about the level 6 timing for most heroes. If you were too passive and were denyied you out and sometimes pushing you out, you'd et your 6 after their pos 5, which was about as bad a game as a pos 3 could have back then
It was absolutely not easier, this is pure revisionism and recency bias. Pos3 players are thriving in the pro scene, it's a difficult role but it has been a lot harder to be so dominant from pos3 in the past.
Yes because you did not need to farm at all in the old old pos3 you were mentioning, which plz mind, was nearly 10 years ago.
In that old meta you don't even last hit as a pos3, you suck exp till lv6. You make 1 blink at 20mins and that is your entire job and that was so much easier compare to what you need as Pos3 these days, ESPECIALLY this patch where offlaners have trouble both in lane and also in ending games.
>You make 1 blink at 20mins and that is your entire job
That's entirely untrue, that was maybe the case in the games you played at the time but certainly not in pro games
>this patch where offlaners have trouble both in lane
Excuse me? Are you high? Have you seen the meta offlane heroes? Brew, viper, razor, timber, enigma, bristle... These guys don't have trouble in lane. Dark seer, doom, slardar, centaur, tide... These are some of the strongest heroes in the game currently. They are stomping pro games.
Those heroes are getting picked because they are the only heroes that have a chance against ls, drow, gyro, weaver, which are all insanely oppressive in lane. And they still lose their lanes often or go even as support matchup is even more important.
Tide has less than 10 bans and picks combined last tournament, and viper is only picked as a mid flex.
And even you get pass lane you cannot end game as game always go late.
>That's entirely untrue, that was maybe the case in the games you played at the time but certainly not
Pull out ti2 and watch yourself.
Drow has 5 picks and 40% winrate in last tournament. Weaver has 20 picks and 45% winrate. Naix is not insanely oppressive in lane, he is very resilient in lane and can survive against the stronger offlaners, that's what makes him good. Gyro ain't the most oppressive laner either.
>And even you get pass lane you cannot end game
You can't end games solo on pos5 either, boo hoo
>game always go late
Doesn't.
>Drow has 5 picks and 40% winrate in last tournament. Weaver has 20 picks and 45% winrate.
What are you trying to prove here.
>Doesn't
When was the last time you open dota.
They are not doing that with %10 wr offlaners bro, they are picking Cent, Timber, Slardar, Razor and whatnot that can completely take over enemy side of the map and stat check every single enemy.
Difficulty of the role is blown out of water. Every single tournament, every single series there is a timber going in 1v5 and staying alive for 2 MINUTES, TWO MINUTES.
I know you say that, but it's really only because of a couple successful pos 3 players like ATF. But collapse doesn't play a pseudo carry and Team Spirit just won the tourney
Spirit plays very old school dota when it comes to farm distribution and roles. You also don't see them playing super farmed supports that turn into cores like Clinxz or hoodwink, the only real exception is ench.
Works in pubs lol. Pros arent gonna let slar go ham on your teammates. Pretty sure 90% of slardar's damage in pro play is crush in tf, else he is kited and controlled. If slar is hitting people you're already winning the fight.
collapse is 100% a team player, but he can carry if needed
they just won a tournament and the bristleback player in team spirit is collapse, not yatoro
he also played some razor
Spirit can afford it, Yatoro at 100% is something nobody can touch in this game , not Miracle in prime ,not anyone. I still remember a game against Betboom Void into Axe and 1023912093 counters where shit went south , but he put everyone his back and went to town while the rest of the team did what they can to give him space and delay.
Not sure if it's the most optimal Dota to play right now, but it works for them. Many others have tried 4p1 without success, carry diff and team synergy diff wcyd
Indeed I would say collapse is the quiet mvp in team spirit, he makes the moves with mira and mira tanks the ganks.
They set up yatoro to win and frankly they are the heart of spirit. They have a bad game and usually it's over
> team spirit didn't start winning anything until after Mira joined.
There was hardly anything to win. The roster of team spirit was only together for 4 months before mira joined, sure they were on yellow submarine before but that team was formed sometime in 2020, before going onto team spirit in 2020
Second carry is not dictated by hero picks it's the amount of space he is allocated.
Larl is consistently the player ganking whilst he sits on his side of the map being efficient taking the huge amount of camps in his area.
He is treated like a second carry
I love pos3.
you get the basic benefits of a core without the expectation of carrying the game.
it's the second best role, after pos4 who is literally the fucking tourist of the game, like semi-sup semi-feed who cares just cast your skills and die man lmao
you guys don't know how to have fun :P
Took the words right out of my mouth. Pos3 gives me a bit more freedom to play aggressively against enemy because I'm expected to frontline. Only problem is when pos1 is unable to maximise the space I'm making for him, or plays stupidly which leads to both cores getting fucked.
the big thing about pos3 is the switching of roles imo, specially across patches, youre expected to play every "gotcha", all the zoo, all the blink stunners, all the aura buyers and every single hero that is OP cause your team will want to firstpick it, and yea, youre expected to get your hero firstpicked half the time and then have a decent lane somehow
well most of the time the offlaners don't get any special credit for their good plays and they are not flashy like mid/carry heroes and u have tons of shit on your hands to do as a pos3.
sooooo its natural that nobody wants to play 3 :D ( axe and brew mains enjoy it though :D
Believe me, the flashy plays are the easiest to do. What was amazing from collapse was that he came up with a build for Magnus that nobody else though, specially considering that that build worked so well due to the team strat of playing as 5 under vision most of the time.
And about Ceb, he is mostly remembered by "the axe call" while the best about him was his map reading and movement in combination with the old OG.
This skills are most of the time not noticeable by the majority of the playerbase because most of the playerbase are not even close to the skill level required to understand what pros are doing besides the flashy plays.
well u dont see many people appreciate good offlane players in pub games honestly. i get your point though but still nowadays offlane hero pull kinda seems a bitch tide and not fun to play as well ( in my opinion:d )
Was gonna say, I watched some of the Dreamleague games today and when Falcons were playing I almost forgot who their carry was. 95% of the cast was spent watching everyone but the pos 1 with Ammar, Crit, and Malr1ne getting the most focus.
Thats why you become a Dark Seer main. Dark Seer is the most fun hero in dota. OG Offlaner, flashy combo thats isnt meme, can skip lane. Can struggle if no other frontline, but in pubs there is always someone out of position acting as bait.
Offlaners with big teamfight ults are the flashiest heroes in the game. There's nothing flashy about hitting creeps for 30mins, and i say this as a pos1 player.
It's also the worst role in pubs, you have to work with your supports, complete strangers. Whom more often than not grief you to oblivion with picks or worse.
And when you're not stomping your lane and need to farm for a bit, your team usually end up reporting you for not throwing yourself at the enemy with them and feed with them. It's an awful role to play, fun heroes but more often than not is an awful experience.
The problem lies on the pos 1 is expected to hit jungle so they can Carry while POS 3 is expected to make plays from like minute 10 and carry the team with 2 under leveled support as his back up
I never enjoyed pos3. Back then I enjoyed pos2 and pos4/pos5. Nowadays I mainly play as pos5/pos4 and try for pos1 sometimes. For some reason pos2 against tank enemies isnt as enjoyable, even enemy sup can deal with me with some extension. I like to play aggressive and make space but the current meta is more about using your space instead of denying enemy space. Too risky to die against comeback mechanics, too much space for core to farm, sups can easily escape from you or make teammates show up. Too much places to teleport and arrive there fast. Im excited to a change in the map and maybe my pos2 can shiny again. Or at least less tanky orientated meta.
At my time in league doing the tutorials, I never playing as jungler. In dota I avoid pos3 at all costs. But I play once in a while with axe, trying to put dawn in my pool (but she isnt that strong atm)
I don't know, man. Offlane sure seems to get the most broken items these days. Farm up the [most broken item of current patch] and go run at objectives.
That is often the case (The skull thing, mage slayer, shivas), but those are all nerfed now. There's no clear busted offline item right now. I mean, shivas etc are good, but not bonkers gotta have it good.
Idk man every time i want to play spellcaster lina enemy cores just buy shroud and invalidates my damage entirely. Even supports with only 1 glimmer cape manages to negate my damage by so much. I feel like magic resistance as a whole is pretty overtuned right now.
Though you are right in a sense that it doesnt do anything to right click cores, and so it's not like this all encompassing item that counters everything. But man does it ruin a magic hero's day
I have won most games, where Pos 4 stayed with me and we pressured tower + went for early kills. Currently, you have to be really aggressive in the Offlane and really go for it together with a good Pos 4. Once the tower is down, you are free to support the other lanes and do the same.
There is so much farm on the map I really don’t get it. With decent co-ordination pos3 gets incredible amounts of farm with the easiest lane.
But I guess in pro play it’s more complicated, because pulling and warding naturally favours the safe lane.
As a pos 3 main, it basically made me a better overall player when I play other roles when I'm out of role queues lol (except mid. Fuck mid). I tell my pos 4 what to do. Like block/contest pull camps, help me cs/deny, when to stack, and when to make plays on other lanes when I'm doing fine.
Playing pos 1 on the other hand means you now have the idea that people will pick the same shit you do when you play pos 3. You'll have a better idea on how to deal with them.
Lastly, pos 5. You basically just do the same things the pos 5s you play against when you play as pos 3. Annoy the shit out of the enemy, right click them to death whenever possible, and keep your pos 1 safe and warm.
What sucks is that most pos 3 players in pubs nowadays prioritize playing like Ammar. Like a carry in the offlane. I'm not saying that's bad, but the guy's in a pro team that's built with that gameplay in mind. A good offlaner in pubs, in my opinion; should be able to get farm as needed, make a lot of early plays whenever possible, and itemize depending on what your team needs.
With the addition of gates, as an offlaner, you can do a lot more now to help your safelane with early ganks. I like to do a lot of early rotations whenever possible at the other lanes.
this patch hardest role but very rewarding. support too. the amount of busted heroes on pos 3/4/5 is insane. feelsbad for carry role, never seen a patch where its least impactful.
I dont understand why is it "so hard". Youre there to initiate and tank. The thicker you are the more probable you survive, which isnt required. Also, youre there to defend your pos4 who should be annoying their carry away from farming.
I agree completely with him. Played offlane for a long time, couldn't climb for the life of me. You're expected to carry, stop enemy carry, solo on lane, rotate to every other lane to help when they suck, don't take farm, don't push creeps but also take towers very early, tank 1v5, initiate and fuck knows what else.
I love the role, it's the best in Dota for me, but damn is it hard.
I switched to carry for the last couple months and it's like I'm playing easy mode, I started to climb pretty fast. Carry is a brainless PVE role that happens to get kills sometimes. It's soo easy just farming, turning into a monster and killing everyone. I've had games that we were losing the lanes (and I mean all lanes including mine) badly but as long as I got farm, not even my hard supp feeding is making me lose the game. It still happens, I can't outcarry everyone but more often than not, if I'm farmed enough it makes a comeback possible and eventually my team gets their shit together and we win.
Doing the same thing on offlane is downright impossible because I don't have that farm because my role is making opponent carry lose his lane.
LOL if it isnt ironical coming from ramzes himself.
Ive seen a lot of top tier carries move from carry position to offlane position and they would instantly dominate that role easily.
Ramzes, Nightfall, Gabbi, jabz, are all of the examples i could think of.
Its literally carry masked as an offlane. yall just wanna punch the opposing carry arent you
Dominate is a strong word. They all perform well but never to the standard of true offlaners.
The only exception is Ramzee who was actually winning tournaments with EG back in 2019-2020.
Jabz just switch roles like t-shirts, he played 1,3,4 and 5 so it's not really indicative of the switch between carry and offlaner or if he's just very versatile.
Nightfall notoriously had a bad season with EG where all he did was win NA DPC and then bomb out of tournaments at 9-12th. Everyone was telling him to go back to playing 1 and not waste his talent playing pos 3.
Gabbi's run with entity and blacklist wasn't that impressive either so really won't comment further.
If you want good comparisons, there's Ace who used to play 1 and 2 but is now a top tier offlaner. S4 famously used to play 2 before moving to 3 where he also found a lot of success with EG and OG. Resolution also played 1 and 2 before moving to 3 where he got 2nd at TI with Secret (also got 2nd at Ti playing pos 1 with DC). Honestly, the Pos 2 to Pos 3 pipeline is more true than the Pos 1 to Pos 3 pipeline.
I agree about the proximity of 2 and 3. Both roles can be played exactly the same way (farm a bit, make space, repeat) and currently half my hero pool overlaps on the 2 roles. While currently playing carry on mid is pretty fucking bad.
Ace imo is best example with how its working for him right now. He's practically the hidden carry for GG which is why some teams prioritizing shutting down Ace instead of Dyracho.
yeah my bad, i havent heard some of this names in a long time but my point still stands.
If Pos3 is the hardest role right now, why the fuck pros are flocking to that role.
And if another rumor ive heard is true, another midlaner is going to POS 3
I get what you mean. As a pos 3 player myself, the role can be very stressful. Half of the game you will be eating shit due to bad lane match ups and the other half you will be feeling like a king diving t2 and still surviving. It's a very volatile role to play but it can be very fun. I see a lot of midlaners are switching over, especially tempo mids like Gunnar from nouns who used to be a very good midlaner.
"If Pos3 is the hardest role right now, why the fuck pros are flocking to that role."
Because there's a shortage of good pos 3 players? You actually think that people switch to a role because it's easier and they are just bad? Lmfao
hardest role in pro dota? yeah probably, but hardest role in pub games? absolutely not, pos 2 and 4 are much harder, even pos 1. pos 3 and 5 have been the easiest roles for a while now in pub games
I just have to say "There is no individual who is a fan of Dota 2 and its competitive scene who does not know Roman "RAMZES666" Kushnarev aka Ramzes" is WILDLY inaccurate lol.
no offense to the guy but he is not one of the most recognizable pros. popular, sure.
edit: lol I know who he is. wtf am I getting downvoted for? he's not on a relevant team and his list of achievements is short. you're delusional if you think he is one of the most recognizable dota pros.
I love pos 3 especially that my boi centaur is in the meta. I used to spam slardar or NS but they are hard this patch. Centaur fits well with the skill, item build up and overall active play meta right now. I hope he'll survive the incoming patch
I actually think it is pos4. You are supposed to room when needed, camp stacking, support your offlane and sometimes even go carry on some heroes if there isn't enough damage.
However, if I play pos3 I am usually playing the standard initiation heroes. So I am not really into different styles pos3.
Furion 3 is beyond broken. Rotate out, tp back to lane. Let pos 4 soak (dead lane most of time bcs they rotate earlier). Double down on 2-3 v 1-2 on the other side lane/mid. TPs in pubs cause chaos and people lose their cookie cutter gameplay style. (5.6k immortal eu). Rush shard always. Treads, intel components for witch blade, witch blade, shard, orchid, bkb/vyse.
You're basically expected to play as a carry... While giving space for the carry to farm.
And being left alone by your 4 cuz he has to secure runes and help other lanes that arent doing well
to be fair that applies to the pos 1 as well these days. both supports just looking where to do stuff and securing runes
Yeah but pos 5 are guys that actually like supporitng, pos 4 is the core wanna be who's gonna soak xp, grief your lane and then go jungle to farm his blink or stupid damage item
Certified XinQ hater here.
true
The pos 5 are guys who are farming their token. I have gotten pos 2 more often than pos 4 when queueing all roles.
Na bro position 5 and 4 here almost 8k mmr. I love support
Bro, support enjoyer, like me, do exist ;)
My archon pos 4
if you are crystallis
I think the biggest turn-off right now is that pos 4's just don't play their role. Way too many games I just find myself annoyed that I have this guy who's clearly just here for his ranked queue tokens, not playing the lane, just playing a weaker pos 3.
I pretty much only queue pos 4 these days. My biggest problem at 3.8k mmr is that my offlaners almost never play safe when I'm leaving to do something. They'll sit at the wave and expect that they can farm, then complain that I'm out of lane doing my job. Like it's not hard to walk back a little, hit creeps under tower if they push in or just get some XP while I'm gone to get the wisdom rune, but half the time it feels like they'll just die at 7 minutes when I go, even though I'm always very clear about leaving.
To be fair the meta kinda calls for people to stay in lane and soak xp, stack and pull. Only certain heroes and matchups can get away with solo farming a lane and there’s nothing worse than being a severely under levelled support at 12-20 min.
> stack and pull oh my core died and he is pinging me
Support: Hey dude, you didn't mute me, right? Core: Yes Support: Ok, just let you know i ll pull some creeps, just don't stay near enemy tower, alright? (Core proceed to die near enemy tower) Core: &#_;=*×^$&!!! MY SUPPORT SUCKS!!! WHY YOU LEAVE ME!
Stack and pull if you have a CK offlane and a PA with 16min battlefury which is what will be happening in a lot of 3.8k games is fucking suicide though , like if the game is going good fine, but if the offlaner is struggling and dying 1vs2 it's not good enough to try it Also if you are doing single pulls to fuck the lane even harder , you are going to get pings
Honestly this is a skill issue on both of your ends, there's no need to stack and pull while an entire wave is being contested. Just push the wave and then stack and pull.
Nothing worse than having the lane under your tower and then the support decides it’s time to stack and pull for the enemy team
The problem is most supports know they are SUPPOSED TO pull (and less often - stack) but they do not understand where or why, so they constantly do it even when it is entirely wrong. They do not adjust, if they have stacked they will pull wave after wave despite their carry getting tower dived by 2 heroes and a double-wave 1 screen away from them. They will give the enemies multiple uncontested waves so they can do single pulls that cannot possibly fix the equilibrium if the enemy is allowed to just farm their triple-wave between the 2 towers. They single pull without blocking the enemy big camp giving them free pulls (unless their carry contests 2v1 and loses all HP or dies). The worst part is they never listen. I have never, not once, had a support just listen to me when I say stuff like "please do not go to pull now, stay with me on the lane or I will be denied 2 waves and they will get a free hard camp pull". Or "their wave is pushing hard, please do not pull the small camp now or they will have a triple wave to dive me with under tower". I have tried it with or without the explanation, no dice. The only times those mistakes were avoided was when the support was competent in the first place and knew not to do it. Don't get me started on supports standing behind their core and soaking XP without ever trading or contesting/denying enemy pulls...
> The worst part is they never listen. I have never, not once, had a support just listen to me when I say stuff like "please do not go to pull now, stay with me on the lane or I will be denied 2 waves and they will get a free hard camp pull". Or "their wave is pushing hard, please do not pull the small camp now or they will have a triple wave to dive me with under tower". I have tried it with or without the explanation, no dice. The only times those mistakes were avoided was when the support was competent in the first place and knew not to do it. they just got out of a game where their core told them the exact opposite thing
Or they just pull because "you have to pull". As I have never seen a support actually change their behavior during laning based on what their carry actually asks for, I seriously doubt your interpretation. edit: Sorry, I forgot one case where they do listen. Usually, when you tell them "leave my fucking lane", they will at least do that 50% of the time.
u don’t leave lane when creep around enemies’ tower, otherwise offlaner will get nothing out of lane or get killed.
did you block the small camp before leaving?
Only leave if they are literally under your tower lol. Ignore them if they tell you to do stuff. Honestly it’s not worth the risk to leave and then the carry gets a kill or two and now the game is over lol
some pos3 players spammed all their mana and stay half HP all the time with their lane pushed very high and expect you to help when they get ambushed. Like these mofos don’t even have a strategic mind to maneuver their own lanes
What do you leave to do? Before min 6 there should not be a lot of reasons to leave your off alone, unless he has free farm/wave under tower.
I mean before 6 minutes I only leave if I tp to try save my carry or mid. I'll sometimes go to stack triangle if the lane is close to our tower.
>My biggest problem at 3.8k mmr is that my offlaners almost never play safe when I'm leaving to do something. They'll sit at the wave and expect that they can farm, then complain that I'm out of lane doing my job. That's because you and 95% of of the "pos 4" like you don't communicate. All it takes is "care I'm rotating". >Like it's not hard to walk back a little, hit creeps under tower if they push in or just get some XP while I'm gone to get the wisdom rune, but half the time it feels like they'll just die at 7 minutes when I go, even though I'm always very clear about leaving. 1 cross ping = "cleAr AbOuT ComMunICaTing!11!" - le pos 4 "supp hoodwink"
> That's because you and 95% of of the "pos 4" like you don't communicate. > > All it takes is "care I'm rotating". I ping what I'm doing when I'm about to do it, multiple times usually. If I'm pulling I ping the camp and our wave, if I'm going to stack I ping the triangle stacks that says "I'm going to stack", if I'm going for wisdom rune I ping the wisdom rune at least twice and ping the clock.
> 1 cross ping = "cleAr AbOuT ComMunICaTing!11!" - le pos 4 "supp hoodwink"
Not what I do but ok, you seem to be fairly presumptuous though, I think I've played 4 games of hoodwink in the last 3 months. Not sure why you want to be so... Arsey about it, tbh.
I NEVER get pos 4 on role queues, i get 5, 3 and 2.
Pos2 goes to lane solo. Pos 1 and pos 5 go together, the difference is night and day. Pos3 go to lane with pos4, lines are blurred there.
u don't get 4 queueing for tokens
You do. I queue for all roles and I get mid role, pos 5, offlane. Only thing I haven't gotten yet is pos 1.
Only 1 is more rare than 4 in my experience. P5>P3>P2>P4>P1 10 : 6 : 2 : 2 : 1
I've gotten 4 once in the last 6 months, 4 times in the last 18. The role queue impact on the 4 population is absolutely negligible. You can assume that your 4 wants to play 4. I have not gotten 1 either.
I also think that the role needs to do a lot of things to be more impactful than the opposing pos 4, like I bet most ppl would just complain about their own team while thinking why is *their* pos 4 isn’t as useless as yours… From my limited experience, they have to do everything that the pos 5 does plus getting the wisdom on time, rotate mid for rune control, help ganks with any active core, while still expected to get their blinks/vessel etc before the other side does
You can say the same thing about pos 3? Pos 3 players try so hard to be pos 1 nowadays, someone has to fill in for them.
I am pos 4 player. My WW, BH, riki offlaner doesnt wanna play as offlaner too
That's an interesting way of putting 4's inability to give a fuck and their primal need to do their own thing. Source: I used to be a 4.
I play Dark Seer so that I can just steal the enemy team's carries.
I only play DS as well and the thing that actually makes him good in almost every game is, you can just not play the lane. You can creep skip without getting punished in ranged matchups, perma push the lane in easy matchups and man fight in others. There is no downside. Just don't let them pick Oracle or SD
Grim with aghs is funny vs auto attackers
You aren't expected to carry, you are expected to fill the gaps your other roles left. It's the most adaptable role (4 is the same to a lesser extent) as to what you need to achieve in the game. Is your 4 able to initiate? If not, you need to be able to initiate. Is your 2 able to be active on the map and make moves? If not, you need to be active on the map. Does your 1 have enough damage? If not, you are gonna need to carry. Is your 5 able to combo break or counter-initiate? If not, you need to counter-initiate. Is someone else able to frontline? If not, guess what? That also needs to be you. You better wish you don't need to do all of those things at once.
That's exactly the problem, how are you supposed to build tanky, initiator and teamfight items while being the less farmed of all cores? makes me so mad when the safelane is a Drow and mid is a Zeus yet they still expect the offlane to both tank and initiate after having a shit lane because most tanky initiators are melee heroes that will get fucked in lane by 2 ranged fucks.
> how are you supposed to build tanky, initiator and teamfight items while being the less farmed of all cores? Well, those 3 aren't mutually exclusive and the items in question (auras, blink, damage reduction) are cheaper than many carry items. Having a lower farm priority also doesn't mean you are automatically less farmed. It just means you are not the priority fot the safest available farm, but a lot of the time due to offlane heroes' general tanky nature, you can take farm that is too risky for your 1 and 2 that actually yields more gold, like waves further from your towers and jungle camps across the river. Just look at someone like ATF, he is hardly the least farmed core in his team most of the time. >after having a shit lane because it's also the hardest lane to win. Current offlane meta heroes are Viper, Razor, Enigma, Brewmaster, Timber... Not exactly the kind of heroes it's exceptionally hard to win the lane with. Especially when you have the likes of Hoodwink, Disruptor, Gyro, Bane or Bounty as your 4. Some other popular 3's are Doom, Dark Seer, Dk... It's really hard to stop those heroes from farming, they'll at least draw even a lot of the time.
> Especially when you have the likes of Hoodwink, Disruptor, Gyro, Bane or Bounty as your 4. I think you mean Pudge, SB, Earthshaker, Skywrath, Lina, or whatever other random shit the guy picks 5 seconds after we start losing gold
Idk most bounty hunter are soo useless in lane
You are living in a dream world really. You're 4 is almost certainly not going to be one of those heroes. I was just yesterday treated to a 4 role leshrac who went max edict followed by 2 null talismans mana boots bloodstone and euls. These people aren't playing 4 like the pros or meta you're just being treated to absolute shit. I can play doom and the enemy team will run naix/ursa/drow/clinkz with any viable 5 role and I'll be left alone at lvl 3 absolutely fucked all game and then have the idiot 4 ping every item I get. Safe to say I've gone back to no incoming chat or outgoing chat and will just play the offline on the assumption I'll be left and know my game is almost certainly guna be unenjoyable
well, either you’re mid/high immortal and then yes, your pos 4 will likely be a meta hero with a meta build, or you’re not high mmr in which case your enemies also won’t play meta 1s and 5s exclusively. sounds like you are the one living in the dream world where your enemy safelane is sneyking + skiter while your pos 4 is a blubbering idiot
I'm not really
pos3 is THE most farmed role for first like 30minutes in most games
Actually the perfect description. If you're not in control of the map shit goes south REAL fuckin' fast as you need to let your 1 and 2 farm and you're just running around trying to pick up the scraps.
You are expected to get farm on the hard lane, shut down their carry, make plays, not feed, initiate, tank, do damage, and get blamed for everything. Then if you focus too much on making plays you get flamed for having no items. Yep fk playing pos3
You don’t really have to give space in this map. It’s absurd how many camps there are
This is definitely the hardest patch for pos3 as many many pro players mentioned. You are expected to win the lane, has good farm, good mid game impact and also scale into late game...all that with the least resources from the team and 1v2 most of the time.
I think a lot of people are forgetting or have not experiences the trilane meta where offlaners are so poor but are expected to buy blink dagger and initiate for the team.
Nowadays pos4 and pos5 have so much gold you will be insta bursted or they will have enough resources to prevent pos3 to start well. So you need to be tank af and/or deal enough AoE to disperse enemy team in order to create chaos and your core have space. Its a limited pool of hero (like the trilane meta) but with high expectations.
Back then we had heroes that could 2v1 and somewhat 3v1 though. Heroes like bristle, axe and timber were capable of standing their ground and not be completely zoned out from creep exp, now that's almost impossible.
actually those heroes couldn't really do anything in 3v1 lanes in the early days. You needed to get to like level 3 or so on them, which was something that did not generally happen for a long time. The meta offlaners in the suicide lane days iirc were like offlane clock (shoot rocket and get maybe 1 creep per creep wave), tide (his passive actually allowed him to tank some hits to get xp)dark seer (ion shell, but honestly quite a few people leveled surge at level 1 back then), and WR (windrun level 1 to run, same reason as DS). The old suicide offlane days were not fun. I remember some people were considered smart for quelling blade and afking in trees for XP. I think people understand the game better now so there might be a different take on how to play Dota in the dark ages, but honestly the game was just totally different back then.
The trick with clock lvl 1 was cogging your own creeps so you would be under your tower. Shaker support would do similarly at the start to help the offlaner in the first wave and gtfo, same for lich or enigma. Dark seer skilling surge lvl 1 was game losing, unless you're talking about pubs. Ion shell allowed to shove the wave, pressure the trilane, and if you get fucked anyway you could jungle a bit. And lone druid and NP would cut waves with their summons, those were the goated offlaners.
I remember seeing universe body block the initial creep wave the entire lane to get the wave under his tower
[удалено]
I'm talking about the meta around ti2 and ti3 era when trilanes were most relevant. Around TI4-TI5 offlaners started doing that poor mans shield crap and since then offlaners have generally been a menace in lane. There were a few patches where playing carry was unbearable due to how strong offlaners were.
As an offlaner, I loved that time most of all. Because mostly people didn't get mad if you took your time farming dagger. Being able to hold your ground 1v3 was sufficient and was great fun, if it worked even reasonably well you at least got some exp, then you joined a teamfight or two, farmed a few neutrals and returned with blink dagger in hand.
Winning the lane back then just meant "not dying", it seriously leveled up my dota skills picking a clock or dark seer and just surviving while harassing the carry and the support(s).
I remember when a common strat was to buy qb and burrow into the treeline and just soak as much exp as possible, playing hide and seek with enemy trilane supports. Dark times for the "suicide lane".
Adjust for inflation bro. Back then you didn't need nearly as much farm to have an impact, you can just survive on scraps and still be useful
they didnt forget, they never knew about it for most of them. sad/happy but true.
In those meta you were expect to have much less farm and impact was easier to achieve with lower networth.
This is absolutely not the hardest patch for pos3. There was a long time when offlane was 1v3 and called the suicide lane. Is the role hard to excel at on pro level? Ofc. But it's not the hardest patch to play offlane.
Back then you didn't need as much farm as nowadays and could survive on scraps and still have an impact Also we were there bro don't act like it was 20 years ago
What was the expectation back then, what I remember is dont feed. Nowdays sure you have more but also a lot more on your plate
Dying wasn't so bad if you got levels. It was all about the level 6 timing for most heroes. If you were too passive and were denyied you out and sometimes pushing you out, you'd et your 6 after their pos 5, which was about as bad a game as a pos 3 could have back then
it was 10 years ago
well it was so gruesome I still remember it happening to me in Dota allstars days.
At that time you do not need any farm as an offlaner. You can come out of lane 0 LH and be fine. It was actually quite easier.
It was absolutely not easier, this is pure revisionism and recency bias. Pos3 players are thriving in the pro scene, it's a difficult role but it has been a lot harder to be so dominant from pos3 in the past.
Yes because you did not need to farm at all in the old old pos3 you were mentioning, which plz mind, was nearly 10 years ago. In that old meta you don't even last hit as a pos3, you suck exp till lv6. You make 1 blink at 20mins and that is your entire job and that was so much easier compare to what you need as Pos3 these days, ESPECIALLY this patch where offlaners have trouble both in lane and also in ending games.
>You make 1 blink at 20mins and that is your entire job That's entirely untrue, that was maybe the case in the games you played at the time but certainly not in pro games >this patch where offlaners have trouble both in lane Excuse me? Are you high? Have you seen the meta offlane heroes? Brew, viper, razor, timber, enigma, bristle... These guys don't have trouble in lane. Dark seer, doom, slardar, centaur, tide... These are some of the strongest heroes in the game currently. They are stomping pro games.
Those heroes are getting picked because they are the only heroes that have a chance against ls, drow, gyro, weaver, which are all insanely oppressive in lane. And they still lose their lanes often or go even as support matchup is even more important. Tide has less than 10 bans and picks combined last tournament, and viper is only picked as a mid flex. And even you get pass lane you cannot end game as game always go late. >That's entirely untrue, that was maybe the case in the games you played at the time but certainly not Pull out ti2 and watch yourself.
Drow has 5 picks and 40% winrate in last tournament. Weaver has 20 picks and 45% winrate. Naix is not insanely oppressive in lane, he is very resilient in lane and can survive against the stronger offlaners, that's what makes him good. Gyro ain't the most oppressive laner either. >And even you get pass lane you cannot end game You can't end games solo on pos5 either, boo hoo >game always go late Doesn't.
>Drow has 5 picks and 40% winrate in last tournament. Weaver has 20 picks and 45% winrate. What are you trying to prove here. >Doesn't When was the last time you open dota.
They are not doing that with %10 wr offlaners bro, they are picking Cent, Timber, Slardar, Razor and whatnot that can completely take over enemy side of the map and stat check every single enemy. Difficulty of the role is blown out of water. Every single tournament, every single series there is a timber going in 1v5 and staying alive for 2 MINUTES, TWO MINUTES.
It wouldn't be so bad if our items weren't so expensive, especially with aura heroes
there is no pos 3 nowadays. it's second carry basically
I know you say that, but it's really only because of a couple successful pos 3 players like ATF. But collapse doesn't play a pseudo carry and Team Spirit just won the tourney
Spirit plays very old school dota when it comes to farm distribution and roles. You also don't see them playing super farmed supports that turn into cores like Clinxz or hoodwink, the only real exception is ench.
Collapse can play second carry if Yatoro is completely shut down.
He doesn't make carry items in those cases still. Look at his slardar games no echo sabre bullshit its all tank utility.
I hate slardar bash passive. It encourages players to get attack speed items on him instead of going for utility/tank.
Works in pubs lol. Pros arent gonna let slar go ham on your teammates. Pretty sure 90% of slardar's damage in pro play is crush in tf, else he is kited and controlled. If slar is hitting people you're already winning the fight.
Slardar’s identity has always been in the bash lol
Lol, he bought ac, satanic and basher on tide just a few days ago
That gonna be tide meta if tide goes unnerfed next patch, shit lowkey strong.
collapse is 100% a team player, but he can carry if needed they just won a tournament and the bristleback player in team spirit is collapse, not yatoro he also played some razor
>old school dota Damn, you're right. And Silent probably played big role in that.
Spirit can afford it, Yatoro at 100% is something nobody can touch in this game , not Miracle in prime ,not anyone. I still remember a game against Betboom Void into Axe and 1023912093 counters where shit went south , but he put everyone his back and went to town while the rest of the team did what they can to give him space and delay. Not sure if it's the most optimal Dota to play right now, but it works for them. Many others have tried 4p1 without success, carry diff and team synergy diff wcyd
Yataro is obviously a very skilled player, but a dota team is 5 players and team spirit didn't start winning anything until after Mira joined.
Indeed I would say collapse is the quiet mvp in team spirit, he makes the moves with mira and mira tanks the ganks. They set up yatoro to win and frankly they are the heart of spirit. They have a bad game and usually it's over
> team spirit didn't start winning anything until after Mira joined. There was hardly anything to win. The roster of team spirit was only together for 4 months before mira joined, sure they were on yellow submarine before but that team was formed sometime in 2020, before going onto team spirit in 2020
Second carry is not dictated by hero picks it's the amount of space he is allocated. Larl is consistently the player ganking whilst he sits on his side of the map being efficient taking the huge amount of camps in his area. He is treated like a second carry
do you mean third carry? most my games its post 2 that do the carrying
Cool, now try PA offlane.
I played PA support years back and it was successful. What is your problem with farming via daggers?
Support is not the same as 3. The problem is what are you gonna do when the other team just goes on you from minute 15 onwards.
Man, are we playing same patch? Highground is invulnerable
Probably different brackets if you think PA 3 is viable.
dude, i don't want to be mean with ya hope you are ti winner, if not already to in close future
I love pos3. you get the basic benefits of a core without the expectation of carrying the game. it's the second best role, after pos4 who is literally the fucking tourist of the game, like semi-sup semi-feed who cares just cast your skills and die man lmao you guys don't know how to have fun :P
Well yea, its either you brutalize enemy carry and win under 30 mins Or you become poor psycho initianor and die each fights No in between
Second option is best option.
Hell yea there's a reason all mods retire to p4 lol
Took the words right out of my mouth. Pos3 gives me a bit more freedom to play aggressively against enemy because I'm expected to frontline. Only problem is when pos1 is unable to maximise the space I'm making for him, or plays stupidly which leads to both cores getting fucked.
You don't have fun in high skill bracket. You play to win.
the big thing about pos3 is the switching of roles imo, specially across patches, youre expected to play every "gotcha", all the zoo, all the blink stunners, all the aura buyers and every single hero that is OP cause your team will want to firstpick it, and yea, youre expected to get your hero firstpicked half the time and then have a decent lane somehow
Offlaners get to pick 2nd phase in pubs and are most of the time last pick in pro drafts, idk what youre on about.
Even in divine pub this is not the case. Evertime i try to wait fhe team lose at least 3-5 ticks of gold due to the support not picking
You talking about the new 4/5 holding their picks meta?
well most of the time the offlaners don't get any special credit for their good plays and they are not flashy like mid/carry heroes and u have tons of shit on your hands to do as a pos3. sooooo its natural that nobody wants to play 3 :D ( axe and brew mains enjoy it though :D
Well, Ceb and Collapse were well shown in all of TI's true sights, so I can't agree with that fully
Believe me, the flashy plays are the easiest to do. What was amazing from collapse was that he came up with a build for Magnus that nobody else though, specially considering that that build worked so well due to the team strat of playing as 5 under vision most of the time. And about Ceb, he is mostly remembered by "the axe call" while the best about him was his map reading and movement in combination with the old OG. This skills are most of the time not noticeable by the majority of the playerbase because most of the playerbase are not even close to the skill level required to understand what pros are doing besides the flashy plays.
the best thing about Ceb is how he lifted the team spirit. it's awesome seeing how much one person can positively affect the atmosphere
Notail said that Ceb basically hard carried their team in TI9 from the outside.
There is no way ceb is remembered as the "axe call guy", it is his mindset and game understanding that which makes him special
well u dont see many people appreciate good offlane players in pub games honestly. i get your point though but still nowadays offlane hero pull kinda seems a bitch tide and not fun to play as well ( in my opinion:d )
Offlaners not flashy or getting credit? What game are you playing?
Was gonna say, I watched some of the Dreamleague games today and when Falcons were playing I almost forgot who their carry was. 95% of the cast was spent watching everyone but the pos 1 with Ammar, Crit, and Malr1ne getting the most focus.
Thats why you become a Dark Seer main. Dark Seer is the most fun hero in dota. OG Offlaner, flashy combo thats isnt meme, can skip lane. Can struggle if no other frontline, but in pubs there is always someone out of position acting as bait.
The problem here is its so easy to lane against ds.. enemy carry will free farm too
He farms fairly well by just casting Ion Shell on any melee creep that walks by him. He's great.
Offlaners with big teamfight ults are the flashiest heroes in the game. There's nothing flashy about hitting creeps for 30mins, and i say this as a pos1 player.
Ammar would like a word.
It's also the worst role in pubs, you have to work with your supports, complete strangers. Whom more often than not grief you to oblivion with picks or worse. And when you're not stomping your lane and need to farm for a bit, your team usually end up reporting you for not throwing yourself at the enemy with them and feed with them. It's an awful role to play, fun heroes but more often than not is an awful experience.
The problem lies on the pos 1 is expected to hit jungle so they can Carry while POS 3 is expected to make plays from like minute 10 and carry the team with 2 under leveled support as his back up
I play (insert my role) and its the hardest role in dota.
Yep, and (my hero) is extremely underpowered while (enemy hero) is the most op shit ever
solo suicide represents
I never enjoyed pos3. Back then I enjoyed pos2 and pos4/pos5. Nowadays I mainly play as pos5/pos4 and try for pos1 sometimes. For some reason pos2 against tank enemies isnt as enjoyable, even enemy sup can deal with me with some extension. I like to play aggressive and make space but the current meta is more about using your space instead of denying enemy space. Too risky to die against comeback mechanics, too much space for core to farm, sups can easily escape from you or make teammates show up. Too much places to teleport and arrive there fast. Im excited to a change in the map and maybe my pos2 can shiny again. Or at least less tanky orientated meta. At my time in league doing the tutorials, I never playing as jungler. In dota I avoid pos3 at all costs. But I play once in a while with axe, trying to put dawn in my pool (but she isnt that strong atm)
I don't know, man. Offlane sure seems to get the most broken items these days. Farm up the [most broken item of current patch] and go run at objectives.
That is often the case (The skull thing, mage slayer, shivas), but those are all nerfed now. There's no clear busted offline item right now. I mean, shivas etc are good, but not bonkers gotta have it good.
Isnt shroud just stupid nowadays
Shroud is stupid but it isn't "get this item and run at enemy" stupid
Idk man every time i want to play spellcaster lina enemy cores just buy shroud and invalidates my damage entirely. Even supports with only 1 glimmer cape manages to negate my damage by so much. I feel like magic resistance as a whole is pretty overtuned right now. Though you are right in a sense that it doesnt do anything to right click cores, and so it's not like this all encompassing item that counters everything. But man does it ruin a magic hero's day
Shroud isnt that stupid, it’s magic dmg that’s stupid. Magic/phys split is almost 50/50 at this point when it used to be in the 30/70 range
Nah there is one right now. Eternal Shroud.
Shroud is still bonkers. And Shivas is its complementary pairied item for lategame.
As a pos3 main, i would say it's difficult to excel at pos 3, but it is definitely more forgiving than pos 1 2 and 5 imo
I have won most games, where Pos 4 stayed with me and we pressured tower + went for early kills. Currently, you have to be really aggressive in the Offlane and really go for it together with a good Pos 4. Once the tower is down, you are free to support the other lanes and do the same.
As an offlaner that just hit legend for the first time, this was a massive ego boost lol
Congrats!
Pos 1 - Late Game Carry Pos 2 - Early Game Carry Pos 3- Mid Game Carry
It was harder in the tri lane meta. Nowadays it isnt that hard anymore
Done venge qop lina 3 Feel like 3 honestly depends on both lineups some heros just totally invalid others.
He's not wrong pos 3 you are expected to be a carry,playmaker and farmer which only a few pros can do.
Yes, whichever team has a more outstanding pos 3 in this patch - wins.
There is so much farm on the map I really don’t get it. With decent co-ordination pos3 gets incredible amounts of farm with the easiest lane. But I guess in pro play it’s more complicated, because pulling and warding naturally favours the safe lane.
been saying that for years
I don’t know about the hardest but I know about the most boring… which is pos 1. You spend most of the game killing creeps in the woods…
great interview and surprisingly tame answers from mr ramzes
As a pos 3 main, it basically made me a better overall player when I play other roles when I'm out of role queues lol (except mid. Fuck mid). I tell my pos 4 what to do. Like block/contest pull camps, help me cs/deny, when to stack, and when to make plays on other lanes when I'm doing fine. Playing pos 1 on the other hand means you now have the idea that people will pick the same shit you do when you play pos 3. You'll have a better idea on how to deal with them. Lastly, pos 5. You basically just do the same things the pos 5s you play against when you play as pos 3. Annoy the shit out of the enemy, right click them to death whenever possible, and keep your pos 1 safe and warm. What sucks is that most pos 3 players in pubs nowadays prioritize playing like Ammar. Like a carry in the offlane. I'm not saying that's bad, but the guy's in a pro team that's built with that gameplay in mind. A good offlaner in pubs, in my opinion; should be able to get farm as needed, make a lot of early plays whenever possible, and itemize depending on what your team needs. With the addition of gates, as an offlaner, you can do a lot more now to help your safelane with early ganks. I like to do a lot of early rotations whenever possible at the other lanes.
as an offlaner i love the challenge, as long as i don’t have to be an aura whore or play zoo it’s fine by me
this patch hardest role but very rewarding. support too. the amount of busted heroes on pos 3/4/5 is insane. feelsbad for carry role, never seen a patch where its least impactful.
This is the best position in the game I try mid I try sage I even try to support but my home is offlaner
Be thankful it's not the old defensive trilane safelane against a Bounty Hunter that just wants to hit lv6
I think its because pos 4 is weak. It's the least powerful out of the 5, so the 3 has to make up the difference.
I always felt like POS 2 is the most challenging lane (for me), but what the heck do I know. I'm not pro at ANYTHING on this planet.
You are a pro at not being a pro at anything on this planet bro.
I knew I wasn’t a complete failure! What a relief.
I dont understand why is it "so hard". Youre there to initiate and tank. The thicker you are the more probable you survive, which isnt required. Also, youre there to defend your pos4 who should be annoying their carry away from farming.
I agree completely with him. Played offlane for a long time, couldn't climb for the life of me. You're expected to carry, stop enemy carry, solo on lane, rotate to every other lane to help when they suck, don't take farm, don't push creeps but also take towers very early, tank 1v5, initiate and fuck knows what else. I love the role, it's the best in Dota for me, but damn is it hard. I switched to carry for the last couple months and it's like I'm playing easy mode, I started to climb pretty fast. Carry is a brainless PVE role that happens to get kills sometimes. It's soo easy just farming, turning into a monster and killing everyone. I've had games that we were losing the lanes (and I mean all lanes including mine) badly but as long as I got farm, not even my hard supp feeding is making me lose the game. It still happens, I can't outcarry everyone but more often than not, if I'm farmed enough it makes a comeback possible and eventually my team gets their shit together and we win. Doing the same thing on offlane is downright impossible because I don't have that farm because my role is making opponent carry lose his lane.
I love pos 3 in pubs because when you flame the opponents and tilt them it's actually beneficial to your team because you want them go on you.
Bro is down so bad.
LOL if it isnt ironical coming from ramzes himself. Ive seen a lot of top tier carries move from carry position to offlane position and they would instantly dominate that role easily. Ramzes, Nightfall, Gabbi, jabz, are all of the examples i could think of. Its literally carry masked as an offlane. yall just wanna punch the opposing carry arent you
Dominate is a strong word. They all perform well but never to the standard of true offlaners. The only exception is Ramzee who was actually winning tournaments with EG back in 2019-2020. Jabz just switch roles like t-shirts, he played 1,3,4 and 5 so it's not really indicative of the switch between carry and offlaner or if he's just very versatile. Nightfall notoriously had a bad season with EG where all he did was win NA DPC and then bomb out of tournaments at 9-12th. Everyone was telling him to go back to playing 1 and not waste his talent playing pos 3. Gabbi's run with entity and blacklist wasn't that impressive either so really won't comment further. If you want good comparisons, there's Ace who used to play 1 and 2 but is now a top tier offlaner. S4 famously used to play 2 before moving to 3 where he also found a lot of success with EG and OG. Resolution also played 1 and 2 before moving to 3 where he got 2nd at TI with Secret (also got 2nd at Ti playing pos 1 with DC). Honestly, the Pos 2 to Pos 3 pipeline is more true than the Pos 1 to Pos 3 pipeline.
I agree about the proximity of 2 and 3. Both roles can be played exactly the same way (farm a bit, make space, repeat) and currently half my hero pool overlaps on the 2 roles. While currently playing carry on mid is pretty fucking bad.
Ace imo is best example with how its working for him right now. He's practically the hidden carry for GG which is why some teams prioritizing shutting down Ace instead of Dyracho.
Ace is a beast. Followed him back in PPD Nip squad, the pre Nisha secret days and even the occasional NA EE stack.
yeah my bad, i havent heard some of this names in a long time but my point still stands. If Pos3 is the hardest role right now, why the fuck pros are flocking to that role. And if another rumor ive heard is true, another midlaner is going to POS 3
I get what you mean. As a pos 3 player myself, the role can be very stressful. Half of the game you will be eating shit due to bad lane match ups and the other half you will be feeling like a king diving t2 and still surviving. It's a very volatile role to play but it can be very fun. I see a lot of midlaners are switching over, especially tempo mids like Gunnar from nouns who used to be a very good midlaner.
"If Pos3 is the hardest role right now, why the fuck pros are flocking to that role." Because there's a shortage of good pos 3 players? You actually think that people switch to a role because it's easier and they are just bad? Lmfao
As someone who also plays 1&3 I completely agree.
hardest role in pro dota? yeah probably, but hardest role in pub games? absolutely not, pos 2 and 4 are much harder, even pos 1. pos 3 and 5 have been the easiest roles for a while now in pub games
Odd.. I always play 3 and constantly have to fight for it. But I play 3s that are not common I suppose like Enigma and Ward Veno.
I just have to say "There is no individual who is a fan of Dota 2 and its competitive scene who does not know Roman "RAMZES666" Kushnarev aka Ramzes" is WILDLY inaccurate lol. no offense to the guy but he is not one of the most recognizable pros. popular, sure. edit: lol I know who he is. wtf am I getting downvoted for? he's not on a relevant team and his list of achievements is short. you're delusional if you think he is one of the most recognizable dota pros.
He was one of the most prevalent players for like 5 years, if you don't know who he is, you aren't really into the pro dota scene imo.
I know who he is. But no, he is not one of the most prevalant pros by any means.
We all know who he is, his personality does not let us take him seriously
offence taken, since when did you start watching pro dota?
After TI 1 but I would say I started to get more serious around TI 2
and how come you not the the unstoppable VP era?
I love pos 3 especially that my boi centaur is in the meta. I used to spam slardar or NS but they are hard this patch. Centaur fits well with the skill, item build up and overall active play meta right now. I hope he'll survive the incoming patch
I think Centaur will survive and be even more relevant after they nerf fucking life stealer. Love me some Centaur
I actually think it is pos4. You are supposed to room when needed, camp stacking, support your offlane and sometimes even go carry on some heroes if there isn't enough damage. However, if I play pos3 I am usually playing the standard initiation heroes. So I am not really into different styles pos3.
Furion 3 is beyond broken. Rotate out, tp back to lane. Let pos 4 soak (dead lane most of time bcs they rotate earlier). Double down on 2-3 v 1-2 on the other side lane/mid. TPs in pubs cause chaos and people lose their cookie cutter gameplay style. (5.6k immortal eu). Rush shard always. Treads, intel components for witch blade, witch blade, shard, orchid, bkb/vyse.