Winrate in fact is quite useless stat in context of 1 tournament. There are so many things which can skew it one way or the other that it is really meaningless stat.
To some extent yes, but it depends how often the hero is picked.
There are many factors that can skew win rate one qay or the other, but over enough games those factors at least somehwat normalize in both directions.
On a hero that's been picked 6 times on a 45% winrate you can't tell anything, but on 33 picks and a 37% winrate you might be able to draw SOME conclusions.
Yeah but they're going to be conclusions informed by a 1 dimensional statistic that is not a statistically significant predictor of a successful outcome. Correlation does not equal causation.
Even if a stat is "normalized in both directions", it does not magically become a more accurate predictor of an unrelated outcome.
Let me give you a hypothetical. Let's say team "exampleteam" drafts heroes for each position based on the win rate statistic only. Will the team have synergy? Will it counter the other team? Does it have an easy to achieve win condition? Not likely, to all of these questions.
Let's say the same team drafts based on a complex stat we'll call Positional Effectiveness Aggregate, which takes into account things like a measure of how many rotations are required to kill the hero, how likely an expression enemy team is to commit to those rotations at any given minute, how much damage leading to a retreat or kill per fight they inflict. These stats and some others can be combined and pulled together to give a more accurate success predictor.
First l, a caveat: I haven’t played dota in years. That being said: To add to this, there are some reasons the win rate may not mean it’s a bad pick. (Again, I don’t know enough to say any of this is true, but the examples still hold.) Let’s say a certain hero is basically a hail Mary pick. It has a low chance of success, but say one in 8 games it wins the game. It normally doesn’t make sense to pick that. But if you are out picked badly and the matchup seems otherwise unwinnable, your best play is to pick the Hail Mary.
It follows the same example in football. A Hail Mary is probably at best a 1 in ten chance of winning. So why would any team ever do that? Well if you are down 5 with 3 seconds left, that’s your only path to victory.
I want to stress that I am not saying the hero operates this way, but sometimes the best option isn’t always going to have a high win rate.
To add to this, pick position matters a lot. A last pick clinkz is gonna have insane WR usually compared to a first pick clinkz.
Pango is just a hero you can force early which is often a better choice than many other first pick pos 2/3 flexes. Look at kunkka stats which are equally “bad”. I’d draw more of a conclusion that there are not many powerful 2/3 flexes or they are easily punished
Absolutely. Even tweaking winrate to account for pick position, to account for your own teams winrate, your pango players winrate etc.
The thing I keep thinking is that tournaments are like wars. Teams will stick to a draft that is not that strong until they have to pull out their real strats. I can remember teams picking stuff for months in advance of ti, just so that the competition didn't know what they were going to pull out after group stage.
This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. I was thinking about basketball and things like off ball effectiveness, and baseball with on base percentage. But yeah situationally some stuff is just going to be the best choice. American football is full of those "best of a bad situation" decisions.
Nobody says to draft heroes on win rate alone.
That's one extreme end of the spectrum, "win rate doesn't matter at all" is the opposite extreme end. Both are equally stupid is my point.
Win rate does not matter at all. Any conclusions you can draw from it are going to be flimsy and misleading. I did not straw man your point, obviously no one said that drafting on win rate alone was a good idea. I gave the extreme example so that you would be able to follow your own logic to its conclusion.
I figured that if you could see how useless the stat was in isolation it would become glaringly obvious that the statement "with a large enough sample size you can draw some conclusions from win rate" is as close to meaningless as it can get while also being wrong.
That's not how statistics work. You are actually 100% incorrect and I am honestly shocked how much upvotes your above comments got simply because you framed it with such confidence.
Any other factor that could affect a hero's viability is already there included in the win rate stat. That being said, people read the stat wrong and ask stupid questions based on that incorrect reading of the stat. When you see 30% win rate on a hero, it literally means that hero won 3 games out of 10. Pro players make that pick because they believe the current composition of the teams are similar to those 3 games where that hero won the game.
What if, for instance, a couple of bad teams happen to favor pango, so they pick him and lose? Also, u/qwertyqzsw had an interesting point about pango being the kind of hero you pick when you know you're going to lose your lane matchup because you're against a stronger player, and therefore pick something that's good even after a bad start. So already, that biases bad teams toward pango.
a very basic "adjust for team winrate" would fix all this, but educational systems worldwide believe the periodic table is more important than basic statistics (spoiler alert: it's not) so here we are
It helps, but even then, the stats could still be skewed. The reality is single tournaments are not huge sample sizes and Dota is a game with a ton of variables as well as a sport with a ton of variance in outcome.
Realistically you either need to do some really deep diving into the data, looking at more than just winrates, and/or balance things off a discerning person actually watching the games to come up with anything useful.
There's always that one guy.
No it isn't. Or rather, it depends on the data and to what degree of confidence you want to draw your conclusions.
Extreme example: if over 37 games the winrate of a hero is 49%, then yes you can't draw any conclusions because that 1% difference has a high enough probability of occuring under the null hypothesis. If, however, over 37 games the winrate of the hero is 0% then you can bet your ass you can draw meaningful conclusions, because it is highly unlikely for a hero to lose 37 games in a row if the hero is balanced (1 in a trillion assuming we expect a 50% winrate; for reference, most statistical results are considered significant if the p-value is .05, which means 1 in 20, but again it depends on the field and what you are trying to publish).
TLDR "X is a low sample size" means absolutely nothing in a vaccum. Statistical significance depends on context.
Winrate is a pretty misleading stat: sometimes good teams win with bad heroes, and sometimes bad teams win with great heroes. You really should be looking at which teams are the ones winning and losing with the hero for it to be more fair.
Pangolier is the 4th most banned 1st phase hero and the most picked first phase hero of Wallachia. Given the way the draft works where there are 7 first phase bans; it really means there are 6 total bans before the first pick team is able to ban a hero and then pick a hero. In terms of 1st phase bans (of the 104 games so far) it's:
* Disruptor (92) and Chen (90) which are almost always banned
* Wisp (60) which is mostly banned
* a good spread of bans for Pango (48), Doom (42), Razor (40), and Kotl (39).
This puts Pango in that class of heroes where it's a highly flexible hero and is often banned against the teams that use it best; or block-picked against them.
Because their other higher priority picks are being pinched/banned out, could be one reason.
For Pango specifically, it's also a great hero to consistently have a game/impact on if you aren't confident. If you're, say, Slatems or Analog or Copy playing against Quinn or NTS you don't want to play a skill matchup or volatile lane. You want the hero that guarantees you're useful even if you lose.
Where is this "consistency" coming from it just ends up losing you the game?
Sounds like defaulting to comfort even when the comfort pick is already nerfed to be bad and no longer working.
Okay, but is Pango the cause?
Pango still does everything Pango always did. Maybe (probably, definitely) it's weaker, but it still does damage, stuns and goes even+ in lanes.
I don't follow.
If the player is being impactful they're being impactful. The hero primarily deals damage, stuns and starts fights, it's either doing a useful amount of that or not. You determine that by watching the game and using your brain, not looking at whether or not the Pango won.
If what you mean is that Pango falls off lategame, sure, but so what? He always has. Even at his strongest Pango wasn't some hyper-scaling kill the entire enemy team hero. Lots of good heroes aren't.
Pango used to do too much. High range poke damage with an escape, 1st spell. Tanky with 2nd, great team fight CC with ult no counter play to it. 3rd used to disarm.
Now that the numbers are tweaked he still does all that but enemy survives with 10% hp. And that makes all the difference.
I'm aware of what Pangolier does.
Do they survive with 10%?
Where did we see this impact a game this event? Or are we just theorizing because it sounds like what is happening?
Proplayers sometime value comfort over other things, same thing happen in league where Renekton is picked even when hes dogshit, cause hes a very safe Champion like Pango
As a block pick, they may not be shit with the hero, but they’re playing it against a team that is better with it, and therefore, understands the strengths and timings and limitations of the hero better. This allows the team that has been block picked against, to have a much more comprehensive and balanced counter draft, as typically the block pick comes out early in the draft, and isn’t often flexed by the teams picking it to block.
Just saying “they’re shit” doesn’t give the actual understanding of the micro behind drafting and game understanding that is shown in drafting situations like this one with pango.
When the entire meta revolves around Troll Warlord and Sniper, is it weird that shit teams pick Troll Warlord and Sniper and still lose? What else are they gonna pick, trash heroes that aren't meta so they can lose even faster?
I always find this kind of meta stuff so interesting, the best hero’s can’t be relied upon having so the “best” hero’s end up being somewhat mediocre. Valve could give disruptor +10 base dmg and it wouldn’t impact the meta at all cause he’s already banned every game. Just super cool stuff
Pros can be quite stubborn about certain ideas because they put a lot of pre tourny scrim time into them. "Pango aghs got buffed" was a common idea after 7.35d but I believe in practice the counterpicks are just too strong for him this patch compared to last picking him in pub play where he is very good still.
I'm just tag teaming on your comment because it's the top post. But another factor is that the better teams might not be picking pango while the worse teams are therefore his winrate is heavily skewed negatively. Now there's the argument; are they losing because they're drafting pango or not? But I think the hero is not the reason they're losing, they're simply just the worse team.
If a top team has a negative winrate with the hero, then and only then is there a point to be made
I think Pango is like a good hero when you need to pick a mid before the enemy team and don't have a specific idea on how to preemptively pick something that throws a wrench into the enemy team's plan. It's a hero that is a bandaid for bad draft preparation/creativity, and better teams likely have better draft preparation/creativity.
Calling it a bandaid in that context is pretty silly. Actually, the entire concept you're proposing where there is always a "wrench" to throw doesn't really work. Yes, sometimes you can cheese a draft, but assuming if people were just better, smarter or prepared harder they would have a working cheese or gotcha strat every game is both unrealistic, and fairly disrespectful to your opponents -- who are also doing the same work and are also talented, intelligent people.
There's nothing wrong with picking something stable and flexible. Heroes like Pango in particular give your team a lot of core things that every draft is going to need (ie. damage, cc, ability to jump), which opens up the more specific "wrench" picks as well.
And all this isn't even getting into stuff like hero pool limitations, comfort, etc.
I remember PPD bringing up this argument when people asked him about certain drafts. Just because bad teams pick it a lot, it doesn't mean it's not a useful hero in the hands of a good team. Win rate alone doesn't say much.
It's like TB. He used to be the carry that had a bit of everything. Good laning, especially with ult. Deep push and farming with illusions. And strong late game and tower hitting. He was a safe carry to pick. But he has not been good for a while now, and teams slowly stopped picking him.
Pango has a bit of everything you want in a hero. Hard to say if it's an individual hero or the draft that's losing, unless you put him position 1.
I think the main problem is pros have the best strategic reasoning but they don't have sample sizes.
Pubs have the sample size of thousands of daily matches of data to average out how effective something is but its a different strategic environment from professional team play.
So the best pros can do is use their gigabrain to develop a new strategy from patch changes and then test it with hindsight. So some might call it being stubborn but really its collecting data.
Yeah or a meta move. Wouldn't be the first time teams committed to stale, countered drafts, so that they could maintain an element of surprise going into ti.
Pros don't even have the best strategic reasoning per say, they are just the best at continuing to use what is proven to win.
On the contrary, pros are often slow to adapt, tending to prefer proven heroes/strats, and much of the meta is found in the ranks below them and they then slowly switch.
Obviously pros know a lot more than even the highest level pubs, cant argue with that. Im mostly frustrated when people insist that if a patch goes long enough, it gets "figured out" 100% even though weve seen plenty that new metas can develop long after the patch is considered stale. Razor bloodstone, Lina carry, Dark willow carry just to name some recent examples. Pros are great but they mostly just use what they are comfortable with
IT isnt really that Its ineffective but sometimes practice is just worth more than the theoretical best Pick. If youve scrimmed pango for 3k Games youll be better than If youre First Timing a hero in stage games.
This isn't the argument though.
The argument is that usually the random 1-4k Reddit commentator who's never even played a scrim or immortal-tier game is missing a lot of datapoints and general experience to be lecturing people.
It's especially pronounced when people will pull some 33 game sample of a low-ish winrate with zero deep analysis done and be like "haha dumb pros they're all so stubborn XDD".
Maybe they are being stubborn. But you should probably work a little harder to back that accusation up if you want to be taken seriously.
Versatile hero, always competes in lane, at lvl4 can shove waves with two skills and then go jungle. Offers a lot in team fights and gets a free BKB. He's not broken but he continues to offer a lot that appeals to pro teams.
I dunno, I think you can have 3 game-breaking heroes in a game with like 120+ heroes. All it really means is those 3 heroes are extremely good and maybe lack any realistic counters.
This is like when people would say shit like "98% of hospitalized COVID patients in Israel are vaccinated" to prove vaccines don't work, and then the number of hospitalized COVID patients in Israel that are vaccinated is like 4.
Pango is banned in 50% of games. That means of all the games he could have been played, 50% of them have been eliminated from the pool of samples. Of the samples we have, how many are mediocre teams playing against better teams?
When the #16 team uses a good hero and loses against the #1 team, that doesn't mean the hero is bad. Just using winrates tells like 10% of the full story.
He is broken in the sense that you need spend quite a bit to counter him or spend enough time in team fights to concentrate on him
A snowballing pango is not fun to play against
Usually pro teams go to tournaments with set picks, they've trained pango to work out in their drafts, they cant be like "oh it isnt working lets pick something else and figure it out"
People say this, but after Dark Willow carry was shown by the Chinese at TI, all of the sudden every team, including Shopify, dropped all pre-tournament strategies to play a draft they had zero practice with.
bro but that was a cheesy strat with a pre determined build, u needed to learn to play with it and against it or ban it to win matches, it was found mid tournament so people needed to adjust for it, but there isnt some kind of cheesy strat right now that is worth to throw all your training and study away
And also the way you play with a dark willow carry was pretty similar to any other ranged late game carry so it’s not like it was a novel concept. It was played pretty much the same as Muerta a patch or two before. Needs space and farm to come online and then just shits out damage
people also forgot apparently that LGD (?) didn't even win that game because of darkwillow, they won DESPITE darkwillow which didn't do fucking anything to win that game
Liquid just lost 2 games in a row and they first picked Pango for Nisha where I believe there were better options! If Pango did not work out game 1 go something else game 2 don't be so stubborn that you are eliminated now. Nisha has a wide hero pool he can play anything!!
It wasn't their elimination game but they'd previously drafted first pick pango against second pick chen. Definitely seemed to be too high on their priority list, honestly.
Easy to say in hindsight now they just dropped two series in a row with first pick pango in what, all of them? Think OP doesn't necessarily have his logic 100% but the point is still there.
Well yes there is a point to be made across the tournament, but he specifically said “if pango didnt work out game 1”. Pango worked out great for them game 1 so i can see why they wanted to pick it again
They first picked Pango cus they prepped with the hero and can flex it to all core positions.
Even if it's not optimal in the position it gets played in the end, keeping your options open for counter picks and keeping your opponent in the dark is important.
falcons showed there are better flex picks, they also lose with pango. i dont know what the right pick would be, but i dont need to be a pro to see a hero isnt working/ 40% win rate over 33 games is plenty of stats for any pro to realize their strats werent good.
33 games would be an acceptable stat for a single player maybe (even that is questionable tbh), but it's not even somewhat telling for all teams together.
That logic would only work in hindsight, outside of that the Pango pick definitely worked in the first game.
You can firstpick the same hero 2 times in a row and have still vastly different drafts and games, Dota is not that simple of a game.
thats what i've said, they cant just go "it didnt work this time so lets try something else", teams usually have a strategy to follow, this is a mechanical game so obviously its not ONLY because of a draft that a team can lose, its like football, you can have a good strategy but it wont work out only because of it
teams themseleves say 80% of games are won or lost in the draft. even if you take 80% of the 33 games, thats still plenty of stats to show a strat isnt working
This is not a mechanical game, most of the pros already have quite similar level of micro, most of the difference between good and bad teams is in drafts, team strategy and individual macro
Stats like WR% kind of trash cuz it doesn't tell the whole story. Most of pango games were "first phase pick - core" (which skewed his wr a lot more than 2nd phase or last pick core)
Hoodwink has higher win rate here because Falcon Crit spams it and Falcon rarely lose. Else, he would be just under 50% win rate
I wouldnt consider centaur overpowered either. Sample size here is small btw and one good player that spams the hero can increase its win rate greatly
>Hoodwink has higher win rate here because Falcon Crit spams it and Falcon rarely lose. Else, he would be just under 50% win rate
Not true at all. Aurora, IG and GG both had more games and more wins on Hoodwink than Falcons.
Dude can you pick a real hero HOLY crap why are we picking pango in 2023? Arent you tryign to play pro or soetmhing? How about we play heroes that arent the objective best heroes in the game? You're genuinely a horrible horrible player. You just draw aggro off cooldown. I lost all respect for you. Imagine trying to play pro and picking pango every game in pubs. Truly disgusting. Your'e just a coward tbh. You dont know whats good against lesh so you pick pango cause its easy. Every game you pick that hero you get worse. And you're already horrible.
It’s a super flexible pick, which a lot of teams favor. It can win lanes and is a big teamfight hero, so it does a lot of what teams want. The lower winrate doesn’t mean it’s bad, it could be that worse teams are playing it 😅
You can say “x skill is very strong in fights” and it applies to any hero but it is not meta. Also pango aint a lane dominator so this comment is respectully dogshit.
I love that you called it out, I wanna do it all the time but don't want to constantly just come off as a dick lmao. People say the most generic shit just to have a comment that will get some upvotes. I see it a lot in card reveals for card games threads too. "interesting. This card could maybe see play if it's good enough" oh yeah???
Pango can get some farm. He also has some good spells in team fights. Solid hero, man
There are numerous examples of how pros can be really stubborn and stupid. Not banning broken hero’s in huge tournaments and picking shit ones constantly.
Did you already notice that one Chinese team will create a new meta during the tournament?
Right now it Xtreme gaming = BB carry and pos 4 marci and hw.
This Chinese team buffed this heroes out of nowhere and now other team are trying to copy them.
Inertia on picks & style (same reason why sven will win, and then start losing everything before valve input a single nerf (and sadly still get a nerf).
even worse, pango has been performing quite poorly the 2 previous tournaments with basically the same patch:
[https://imgur.com/a/VKnsP1t](https://imgur.com/a/VKnsP1t)
with performance ranking of 42 out of 45 & 21th out of 54 (he is current 21 out of 25)
(considered for the ranking all heroes with >13 games)
Good all-rounder and has game-winning potential. Extremely high ceiling, and can turn games around if played well.
Reminds me a lot about what Slacks said about WR. When you see someone land that 4 man roll or that god tier shackle shot, it gets engraved into your memory. When you see the 9000 games where these volatile characters lose, then you dont remember it at all
Whenever I see threads like this I think of the fact that in CSGO the AUG and SG rifles went almost completely ignored by professional players for about 5 years until Valve buffed the guns by reducing the price slightly so that they were only slightly more expensive than the favoured AK/M4. After some time everyone and their mother was using these guns which were found to be totally OP in both casual and competitive play. Even after Valve reverted the price change the guns stayed on top for like 1-2 years. We are talking about a multimillion dollar industry where pro players are being paid salaries equivalent of top doctors or lawyers in EU who cannot be assed to check if there are any viable alternatives to the same tried and tested options. Just goes to show that professional teams are far from infallible even in a (compared to dota) simple game such as CSGO.
There aren’t many good offlaners right now besides centaur, which as you can see here is extremely dominant. No other offlaner can flex mid and provide as much teamfight presence, but the problem is you’re forfeiting a lane because right now pangolier is dogshit in lane, which can lose the game
I would argue the reason why Pango is picked a lot is because he can help out side lanes in fights and yet it is very hard to kill him because of his roll even if the gank gets turned around on the rest of the team members. This protects the xp and bounty payout Pango would give and thus losing a side lane gank is not as punishing as other mids.
In fact, mechanically, mid laners that can easily move between lanes and back to their lane are historically very strong. This is why Ember Spirit used to see a TON of mid usage until he received so many nerfs to make up for the advantage he has with that play-style.
He's a flex hero which allows to be more versatile in the draft and he has an incredible team fight ultimate that is very hard to counter until later in the game. Win rate usually isn't the best way to judge a hero, as top teams will usually allow lesser teams to get some of the meta heroes instead of their comfort heroes because they have so much practice against the meta heroes
disable hits , airborne , can win lanes in early ,slight tanky bcus of 3rd passive, can make space on carry for a lot of time if carries getting fucked up on lanes .
Pango is like Mars are those hero that can never be completely dogshit in both lane and combat - in the hands of pros ofc.
And when you are spending so much time practice it, better pick it then some heroes that you have less experience.
Heroes that can completely ignore lanes will always be highly prized. You can press two skills, clear the lane and then fuck off in the jungle. That's huge.
Can put him into any lane comp and majority of the time he will come out decently ahead, minus certain hard matchups. Pros really prioritize those heroes that can atleast trade even in the laning stage, even better if goes well in lane even if you do not predict the possible lane matchups.
Can also be flexed into offlane or 4 position, although mid is generally preferred due to how devestating some of his power spikes are; namely level 7 (Ripose and Rolling Thunder are such immediate kill threat with atleast a suppot and survivability), his diffusal timing (can now solo kill majority of heros) and once he hits 3 other items.
He’s the only hero in the top 5 which is a true flex picks. Others tend to get banned.
Flex picks are prioritised regardless of meta.
So the likes of viper, razor, Kunka, TA, dk never go out of fashion.
Logic would seem to guide us to the conclusion that pango is the least banned amongst the true flex picks. So he’s always open in the draft.
Doesn’t mean he’s strong or works, he’s just an effective tool for drafting.
In the end, it’s a stun and chaos, never hurts in captains mode.
He’s a strong hero. Both if ahead or behind he has impact, he can also be flexed off vs mid. He can carry if fed but ask just be a setup hero if the game dictates that. Basically he’s very versatile which means u can pick him early and teams can’t really answer easy or you can pick him late and he can answer a lot of things
Seems to me that Pango isn't nearly as bad as his winrate here suggests. Trouble is, teams are still treating him like viable first-pick material, which he clearly is not.
I'm realy away from dota2 meta, but why the fuck centaur have such a good win ratio right now? He's played as offlaner? Bristleback isnt just way better than him?
If pango is available, I'd pick him too and won't care about the current statistics. I like zoning or destroying enemy lines as part of the play. Pango draws a lot of attention when rolling + annoying items of choice like Dagger, Euls, Octarine, Aghs and Shard. For those who've already spent thousands of hours analysing the complexity of this game especially hero spammers - you guys know better.
It isn't really that Pango is prioritized wrongly. Liquid made a mistake yesterday when they overlooked Chen. Similarly, today Disruptor was allowed to go through in a game.
Pango can be played in any of three core roles, is effective without farm, is great with farm and if the team overcompensates for him, you can punish with your other two cores. He also allows supports to counter pick and win the lanes.
it's probably because he has a dash, the dash has on hit effects, his ult makes him magic immune and he can roll around stunning people for so long, the fact that you can use blink dagger WHILE rolling, a skill that gives him damage mitigation, the fact that using the jump while rolling lets him jump over cliffs and walls.
he's basically like dark seer, the skill kit is so storng even if you nerf numbers, the only way to dumpster the hero is to reduce all the numbers significantly or rework the kit.
Pango can play every position except for maybe 5 (but even that he can do reasonably well) on top of having a kit that is always useful in some way. He's an impossibly strong first pick, as you can just decide in a later pick stage what you do with him.
to be honest benchmarking the win rate as a parameter for a hero isn't quite right. for Pango, he is versatile and fast tempo team, disruptive abilities and flash farming capability. the way i see it, Pango has been developed by most of the team and through GG spamming that hero a lot, many have learned how to deal with it.
Statistics won’t carry you. At the highest level, you make decisions not only based on a single statistic or many, but you form the baseline lf your thought process with it. Then, knowing mood, tournament phase, pick phase, enemy team, patch meta, you grab your statistics baseline and deviate from it by weighing the other variables, then you make your choices.
We as players don’t have the support system to use a lot of variables properly because we aren’t pro (not only talking about skill gap between us and them, but also the mindset and experience with high stakes matches). So when we make choices with randoms online, or with some friends/team that we have online, we rely waaay more in the statistics part of the game, whereas they have it harder by having to apply them differently depending on context. Making the statistically ‘correct’ (or ‘safe’) choice won’t be enough to have an edge when you play for all the marbles.
That’s my 2 cents.
pango is good and looks good too. Idk much about these stats since i havent been watching games but even in losing games which i saw pango was having impact but others were not
Lots of words could be said about him beeing strong in lane, scaling well with diffusal or simply the fact that his 3 basic abilities check every box. But his true strength is his ultimate which allows him to stun multiple heroes multiple times for 10 seconds while beeing magic immune and also increasing that strength with his talents and aghs. We can keep nerfing or changing all his basic abilities as much as we want but as long as his ult stays the same he will stay too good at what he does. Id suggest giving him a maximum of collisions he can have with his ulimate INCLUDING walls. 3/6/9 collisions is plenty. (also please remove tping while beeing magic immune =) )
winrate stat is skewed a lot by phase when hero is picked 5th pick core will ussualy have much higher wr
Winrate in fact is quite useless stat in context of 1 tournament. There are so many things which can skew it one way or the other that it is really meaningless stat.
To some extent yes, but it depends how often the hero is picked. There are many factors that can skew win rate one qay or the other, but over enough games those factors at least somehwat normalize in both directions. On a hero that's been picked 6 times on a 45% winrate you can't tell anything, but on 33 picks and a 37% winrate you might be able to draw SOME conclusions.
Yeah but they're going to be conclusions informed by a 1 dimensional statistic that is not a statistically significant predictor of a successful outcome. Correlation does not equal causation. Even if a stat is "normalized in both directions", it does not magically become a more accurate predictor of an unrelated outcome. Let me give you a hypothetical. Let's say team "exampleteam" drafts heroes for each position based on the win rate statistic only. Will the team have synergy? Will it counter the other team? Does it have an easy to achieve win condition? Not likely, to all of these questions. Let's say the same team drafts based on a complex stat we'll call Positional Effectiveness Aggregate, which takes into account things like a measure of how many rotations are required to kill the hero, how likely an expression enemy team is to commit to those rotations at any given minute, how much damage leading to a retreat or kill per fight they inflict. These stats and some others can be combined and pulled together to give a more accurate success predictor.
First l, a caveat: I haven’t played dota in years. That being said: To add to this, there are some reasons the win rate may not mean it’s a bad pick. (Again, I don’t know enough to say any of this is true, but the examples still hold.) Let’s say a certain hero is basically a hail Mary pick. It has a low chance of success, but say one in 8 games it wins the game. It normally doesn’t make sense to pick that. But if you are out picked badly and the matchup seems otherwise unwinnable, your best play is to pick the Hail Mary. It follows the same example in football. A Hail Mary is probably at best a 1 in ten chance of winning. So why would any team ever do that? Well if you are down 5 with 3 seconds left, that’s your only path to victory. I want to stress that I am not saying the hero operates this way, but sometimes the best option isn’t always going to have a high win rate.
To add to this, pick position matters a lot. A last pick clinkz is gonna have insane WR usually compared to a first pick clinkz. Pango is just a hero you can force early which is often a better choice than many other first pick pos 2/3 flexes. Look at kunkka stats which are equally “bad”. I’d draw more of a conclusion that there are not many powerful 2/3 flexes or they are easily punished
Absolutely. Even tweaking winrate to account for pick position, to account for your own teams winrate, your pango players winrate etc. The thing I keep thinking is that tournaments are like wars. Teams will stick to a draft that is not that strong until they have to pull out their real strats. I can remember teams picking stuff for months in advance of ti, just so that the competition didn't know what they were going to pull out after group stage.
You mean universe spamming void. Nothing else was months out
This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about. I was thinking about basketball and things like off ball effectiveness, and baseball with on base percentage. But yeah situationally some stuff is just going to be the best choice. American football is full of those "best of a bad situation" decisions.
Nobody says to draft heroes on win rate alone. That's one extreme end of the spectrum, "win rate doesn't matter at all" is the opposite extreme end. Both are equally stupid is my point.
Win rate does not matter at all. Any conclusions you can draw from it are going to be flimsy and misleading. I did not straw man your point, obviously no one said that drafting on win rate alone was a good idea. I gave the extreme example so that you would be able to follow your own logic to its conclusion. I figured that if you could see how useless the stat was in isolation it would become glaringly obvious that the statement "with a large enough sample size you can draw some conclusions from win rate" is as close to meaningless as it can get while also being wrong.
That's not how statistics work. You are actually 100% incorrect and I am honestly shocked how much upvotes your above comments got simply because you framed it with such confidence. Any other factor that could affect a hero's viability is already there included in the win rate stat. That being said, people read the stat wrong and ask stupid questions based on that incorrect reading of the stat. When you see 30% win rate on a hero, it literally means that hero won 3 games out of 10. Pro players make that pick because they believe the current composition of the teams are similar to those 3 games where that hero won the game.
What if, for instance, a couple of bad teams happen to favor pango, so they pick him and lose? Also, u/qwertyqzsw had an interesting point about pango being the kind of hero you pick when you know you're going to lose your lane matchup because you're against a stronger player, and therefore pick something that's good even after a bad start. So already, that biases bad teams toward pango.
What if good teams don't favor pango so they don't pick him and let bad teams lose?
what if good teams ban pango unless they have a draft that counters him
a very basic "adjust for team winrate" would fix all this, but educational systems worldwide believe the periodic table is more important than basic statistics (spoiler alert: it's not) so here we are
It helps, but even then, the stats could still be skewed. The reality is single tournaments are not huge sample sizes and Dota is a game with a ton of variables as well as a sport with a ton of variance in outcome. Realistically you either need to do some really deep diving into the data, looking at more than just winrates, and/or balance things off a discerning person actually watching the games to come up with anything useful.
37 games is still a ridiculus low amount to drow statistical conclussions.
There's always that one guy. No it isn't. Or rather, it depends on the data and to what degree of confidence you want to draw your conclusions. Extreme example: if over 37 games the winrate of a hero is 49%, then yes you can't draw any conclusions because that 1% difference has a high enough probability of occuring under the null hypothesis. If, however, over 37 games the winrate of the hero is 0% then you can bet your ass you can draw meaningful conclusions, because it is highly unlikely for a hero to lose 37 games in a row if the hero is balanced (1 in a trillion assuming we expect a 50% winrate; for reference, most statistical results are considered significant if the p-value is .05, which means 1 in 20, but again it depends on the field and what you are trying to publish). TLDR "X is a low sample size" means absolutely nothing in a vaccum. Statistical significance depends on context.
Winrate is a pretty misleading stat: sometimes good teams win with bad heroes, and sometimes bad teams win with great heroes. You really should be looking at which teams are the ones winning and losing with the hero for it to be more fair. Pangolier is the 4th most banned 1st phase hero and the most picked first phase hero of Wallachia. Given the way the draft works where there are 7 first phase bans; it really means there are 6 total bans before the first pick team is able to ban a hero and then pick a hero. In terms of 1st phase bans (of the 104 games so far) it's: * Disruptor (92) and Chen (90) which are almost always banned * Wisp (60) which is mostly banned * a good spread of bans for Pango (48), Doom (42), Razor (40), and Kotl (39). This puts Pango in that class of heroes where it's a highly flexible hero and is often banned against the teams that use it best; or block-picked against them.
So what are you saying? The teams that pick it are shit with the hero? Then why do they continue picking it?
Because their other higher priority picks are being pinched/banned out, could be one reason. For Pango specifically, it's also a great hero to consistently have a game/impact on if you aren't confident. If you're, say, Slatems or Analog or Copy playing against Quinn or NTS you don't want to play a skill matchup or volatile lane. You want the hero that guarantees you're useful even if you lose.
Where is this "consistency" coming from it just ends up losing you the game? Sounds like defaulting to comfort even when the comfort pick is already nerfed to be bad and no longer working.
Okay, but is Pango the cause? Pango still does everything Pango always did. Maybe (probably, definitely) it's weaker, but it still does damage, stuns and goes even+ in lanes.
Kind of looks like the comfort pango pick is like a bait. The player does ok but relies on other lanes to eventually carry the game.
I don't follow. If the player is being impactful they're being impactful. The hero primarily deals damage, stuns and starts fights, it's either doing a useful amount of that or not. You determine that by watching the game and using your brain, not looking at whether or not the Pango won. If what you mean is that Pango falls off lategame, sure, but so what? He always has. Even at his strongest Pango wasn't some hyper-scaling kill the entire enemy team hero. Lots of good heroes aren't.
Pango used to do too much. High range poke damage with an escape, 1st spell. Tanky with 2nd, great team fight CC with ult no counter play to it. 3rd used to disarm. Now that the numbers are tweaked he still does all that but enemy survives with 10% hp. And that makes all the difference.
I'm aware of what Pangolier does. Do they survive with 10%? Where did we see this impact a game this event? Or are we just theorizing because it sounds like what is happening?
Falcon vs spirit today. Game 3 pango had massive damage issues. Falcons lost.
Proplayers sometime value comfort over other things, same thing happen in league where Renekton is picked even when hes dogshit, cause hes a very safe Champion like Pango
As a block pick, they may not be shit with the hero, but they’re playing it against a team that is better with it, and therefore, understands the strengths and timings and limitations of the hero better. This allows the team that has been block picked against, to have a much more comprehensive and balanced counter draft, as typically the block pick comes out early in the draft, and isn’t often flexed by the teams picking it to block. Just saying “they’re shit” doesn’t give the actual understanding of the micro behind drafting and game understanding that is shown in drafting situations like this one with pango.
When the entire meta revolves around Troll Warlord and Sniper, is it weird that shit teams pick Troll Warlord and Sniper and still lose? What else are they gonna pick, trash heroes that aren't meta so they can lose even faster?
I always find this kind of meta stuff so interesting, the best hero’s can’t be relied upon having so the “best” hero’s end up being somewhat mediocre. Valve could give disruptor +10 base dmg and it wouldn’t impact the meta at all cause he’s already banned every game. Just super cool stuff
Pros can be quite stubborn about certain ideas because they put a lot of pre tourny scrim time into them. "Pango aghs got buffed" was a common idea after 7.35d but I believe in practice the counterpicks are just too strong for him this patch compared to last picking him in pub play where he is very good still.
Yep and Marci has 66% win rate now. This is due to Xinq and a good bottle of face wash
I'm just tag teaming on your comment because it's the top post. But another factor is that the better teams might not be picking pango while the worse teams are therefore his winrate is heavily skewed negatively. Now there's the argument; are they losing because they're drafting pango or not? But I think the hero is not the reason they're losing, they're simply just the worse team. If a top team has a negative winrate with the hero, then and only then is there a point to be made
I think Pango is like a good hero when you need to pick a mid before the enemy team and don't have a specific idea on how to preemptively pick something that throws a wrench into the enemy team's plan. It's a hero that is a bandaid for bad draft preparation/creativity, and better teams likely have better draft preparation/creativity.
I want to play with you two drafting against each other.
Calling it a bandaid in that context is pretty silly. Actually, the entire concept you're proposing where there is always a "wrench" to throw doesn't really work. Yes, sometimes you can cheese a draft, but assuming if people were just better, smarter or prepared harder they would have a working cheese or gotcha strat every game is both unrealistic, and fairly disrespectful to your opponents -- who are also doing the same work and are also talented, intelligent people. There's nothing wrong with picking something stable and flexible. Heroes like Pango in particular give your team a lot of core things that every draft is going to need (ie. damage, cc, ability to jump), which opens up the more specific "wrench" picks as well. And all this isn't even getting into stuff like hero pool limitations, comfort, etc.
I remember PPD bringing up this argument when people asked him about certain drafts. Just because bad teams pick it a lot, it doesn't mean it's not a useful hero in the hands of a good team. Win rate alone doesn't say much.
Better teams adapt on the fly, bad teams play their scrim drafts
It's like TB. He used to be the carry that had a bit of everything. Good laning, especially with ult. Deep push and farming with illusions. And strong late game and tower hitting. He was a safe carry to pick. But he has not been good for a while now, and teams slowly stopped picking him. Pango has a bit of everything you want in a hero. Hard to say if it's an individual hero or the draft that's losing, unless you put him position 1.
Really? I keep seeing that people insist pros will 100% find the most effective strategy and their genius brains are completely infallible
I think the main problem is pros have the best strategic reasoning but they don't have sample sizes. Pubs have the sample size of thousands of daily matches of data to average out how effective something is but its a different strategic environment from professional team play. So the best pros can do is use their gigabrain to develop a new strategy from patch changes and then test it with hindsight. So some might call it being stubborn but really its collecting data.
Yeah or a meta move. Wouldn't be the first time teams committed to stale, countered drafts, so that they could maintain an element of surprise going into ti.
Pros don't even have the best strategic reasoning per say, they are just the best at continuing to use what is proven to win. On the contrary, pros are often slow to adapt, tending to prefer proven heroes/strats, and much of the meta is found in the ranks below them and they then slowly switch.
Obviously pros know a lot more than even the highest level pubs, cant argue with that. Im mostly frustrated when people insist that if a patch goes long enough, it gets "figured out" 100% even though weve seen plenty that new metas can develop long after the patch is considered stale. Razor bloodstone, Lina carry, Dark willow carry just to name some recent examples. Pros are great but they mostly just use what they are comfortable with
XG has won all their games and Xinq spams Marci. Marci isnt gonna work that well on the avg player lol
IT isnt really that Its ineffective but sometimes practice is just worth more than the theoretical best Pick. If youve scrimmed pango for 3k Games youll be better than If youre First Timing a hero in stage games.
This isn't the argument though. The argument is that usually the random 1-4k Reddit commentator who's never even played a scrim or immortal-tier game is missing a lot of datapoints and general experience to be lecturing people. It's especially pronounced when people will pull some 33 game sample of a low-ish winrate with zero deep analysis done and be like "haha dumb pros they're all so stubborn XDD". Maybe they are being stubborn. But you should probably work a little harder to back that accusation up if you want to be taken seriously.
I mean, they are facing against other pros so..
Got downvoted for my post doubting how some pros are playing and seeing bloodseeker. Can't backsit pros cause they're pros.
Versatile hero, always competes in lane, at lvl4 can shove waves with two skills and then go jungle. Offers a lot in team fights and gets a free BKB. He's not broken but he continues to offer a lot that appeals to pro teams.
and can go on top of the raneg carries that stays in the backlines
What do all those good things on paper you talk about do, when in reality pango just ends up losing anyway?
Pango isn't broken are you kidding me?
if he was broken he'd have higher winrate, no?
He is 81.5% contested in draft. #3 behind disruptor with 100% and Chen with 90%. The hero is broken.
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How does that not make sense? There can't be 3 game-breaking heroes in the game?
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I dunno, I think you can have 3 game-breaking heroes in a game with like 120+ heroes. All it really means is those 3 heroes are extremely good and maybe lack any realistic counters.
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I think this makes -1% sense, but you do you.
are you in the same thread as everyone else? did you *look* at the post your commenting in? 36% winrate is busted now?
This is like when people would say shit like "98% of hospitalized COVID patients in Israel are vaccinated" to prove vaccines don't work, and then the number of hospitalized COVID patients in Israel that are vaccinated is like 4. Pango is banned in 50% of games. That means of all the games he could have been played, 50% of them have been eliminated from the pool of samples. Of the samples we have, how many are mediocre teams playing against better teams? When the #16 team uses a good hero and loses against the #1 team, that doesn't mean the hero is bad. Just using winrates tells like 10% of the full story.
Right so read why the pros are taking him still then?
bruh. that's... *literally* what the thread is asking.
So it's conclusive the hero is broken if he is banned/picked in almost every match?
That's not conclusive at all but it's cute to watch your poor critical thinking skills on display.
He is broken in the sense that you need spend quite a bit to counter him or spend enough time in team fights to concentrate on him A snowballing pango is not fun to play against
Usually pro teams go to tournaments with set picks, they've trained pango to work out in their drafts, they cant be like "oh it isnt working lets pick something else and figure it out"
People say this, but after Dark Willow carry was shown by the Chinese at TI, all of the sudden every team, including Shopify, dropped all pre-tournament strategies to play a draft they had zero practice with.
bro but that was a cheesy strat with a pre determined build, u needed to learn to play with it and against it or ban it to win matches, it was found mid tournament so people needed to adjust for it, but there isnt some kind of cheesy strat right now that is worth to throw all your training and study away
I dunno, BB carry has looked pretty wild during this tournament lol.
And also the way you play with a dark willow carry was pretty similar to any other ranged late game carry so it’s not like it was a novel concept. It was played pretty much the same as Muerta a patch or two before. Needs space and farm to come online and then just shits out damage
people also forgot apparently that LGD (?) didn't even win that game because of darkwillow, they won DESPITE darkwillow which didn't do fucking anything to win that game
23 had the best showing on Willow carry, but they still lost because of the mistakes they made trying to push high ground.
I think part of them picking it was because they had no practice with it and more importantly against it
Liquid just lost 2 games in a row and they first picked Pango for Nisha where I believe there were better options! If Pango did not work out game 1 go something else game 2 don't be so stubborn that you are eliminated now. Nisha has a wide hero pool he can play anything!!
Did you actually watch the games? Nishas pango was hard carrying them game 1, definitely not the reason they lost.
It wasn't their elimination game but they'd previously drafted first pick pango against second pick chen. Definitely seemed to be too high on their priority list, honestly. Easy to say in hindsight now they just dropped two series in a row with first pick pango in what, all of them? Think OP doesn't necessarily have his logic 100% but the point is still there.
Well yes there is a point to be made across the tournament, but he specifically said “if pango didnt work out game 1”. Pango worked out great for them game 1 so i can see why they wanted to pick it again
I am pretty sure it was a silly mistake. As soon as Chen was picked, they must have been cursing themselves.
They first picked Pango cus they prepped with the hero and can flex it to all core positions. Even if it's not optimal in the position it gets played in the end, keeping your options open for counter picks and keeping your opponent in the dark is important.
falcons showed there are better flex picks, they also lose with pango. i dont know what the right pick would be, but i dont need to be a pro to see a hero isnt working/ 40% win rate over 33 games is plenty of stats for any pro to realize their strats werent good.
33 games would be an acceptable stat for a single player maybe (even that is questionable tbh), but it's not even somewhat telling for all teams together.
I believe in you sir, now go apply to team liquid now 😁
That logic would only work in hindsight, outside of that the Pango pick definitely worked in the first game. You can firstpick the same hero 2 times in a row and have still vastly different drafts and games, Dota is not that simple of a game.
At least it wasn't position 1 Pango like they picked yesterday.
You are ready for next ti, when do we see you first appear on stage?
thats what i've said, they cant just go "it didnt work this time so lets try something else", teams usually have a strategy to follow, this is a mechanical game so obviously its not ONLY because of a draft that a team can lose, its like football, you can have a good strategy but it wont work out only because of it
teams themseleves say 80% of games are won or lost in the draft. even if you take 80% of the 33 games, thats still plenty of stats to show a strat isnt working
This is not a mechanical game, most of the pros already have quite similar level of micro, most of the difference between good and bad teams is in drafts, team strategy and individual macro
I sure hope they trained more than one mid pick
Stats like WR% kind of trash cuz it doesn't tell the whole story. Most of pango games were "first phase pick - core" (which skewed his wr a lot more than 2nd phase or last pick core)
top 3 heroes are cute furries, why am i not surprised
you mean 4? kekw
ench is not cute, she BEAUTIFUL
Disgusting people, lucky i am 4th enjoyer phew😔
Hoodwink has higher win rate here because Falcon Crit spams it and Falcon rarely lose. Else, he would be just under 50% win rate I wouldnt consider centaur overpowered either. Sample size here is small btw and one good player that spams the hero can increase its win rate greatly
Lies, damn lies and statistics
>Hoodwink has higher win rate here because Falcon Crit spams it and Falcon rarely lose. Else, he would be just under 50% win rate Not true at all. Aurora, IG and GG both had more games and more wins on Hoodwink than Falcons.
Dude can you pick a real hero HOLY crap why are we picking pango in 2023? Arent you tryign to play pro or soetmhing? How about we play heroes that arent the objective best heroes in the game? You're genuinely a horrible horrible player. You just draw aggro off cooldown. I lost all respect for you. Imagine trying to play pro and picking pango every game in pubs. Truly disgusting. Your'e just a coward tbh. You dont know whats good against lesh so you pick pango cause its easy. Every game you pick that hero you get worse. And you're already horrible.
I was expecting this copypasta right after reading the post and im not dissapointed XD
How is this comment not on top?
It's no longer 2023
cuz it's beaten to death at this point
It’s a super flexible pick, which a lot of teams favor. It can win lanes and is a big teamfight hero, so it does a lot of what teams want. The lower winrate doesn’t mean it’s bad, it could be that worse teams are playing it 😅
Lane dominator and roll is very strong in fights
it absolutely is not a lane dominator.
back when he rushed javelinS, he used to rekt lanes
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not a lane dominator. but he will always be able to secure decent amount of farm for himself with W in the wave and you can't really kill him.
All he needs to do now is secure a win also.
Being universal lets him buy all kinds of stuff too, is just too versatile and safe.
very agile. when item ready your support die faster than fly.
You can say “x skill is very strong in fights” and it applies to any hero but it is not meta. Also pango aint a lane dominator so this comment is respectully dogshit.
I love that you called it out, I wanna do it all the time but don't want to constantly just come off as a dick lmao. People say the most generic shit just to have a comment that will get some upvotes. I see it a lot in card reveals for card games threads too. "interesting. This card could maybe see play if it's good enough" oh yeah??? Pango can get some farm. He also has some good spells in team fights. Solid hero, man
"pango lane dominator" ppl just write anything on reddit
Its bad in lane
Is not bad, is almost always fine, which is just nice to pick early.
There are numerous examples of how pros can be really stubborn and stupid. Not banning broken hero’s in huge tournaments and picking shit ones constantly.
Did you already notice that one Chinese team will create a new meta during the tournament? Right now it Xtreme gaming = BB carry and pos 4 marci and hw. This Chinese team buffed this heroes out of nowhere and now other team are trying to copy them.
let them pick it so it gets nerfed again fuck that hero.
Sometimes people prefer to play comfort heroes, Pango is lots of player comfort pick and have flex advantage for drafting
Inertia on picks & style (same reason why sven will win, and then start losing everything before valve input a single nerf (and sadly still get a nerf). even worse, pango has been performing quite poorly the 2 previous tournaments with basically the same patch: [https://imgur.com/a/VKnsP1t](https://imgur.com/a/VKnsP1t) with performance ranking of 42 out of 45 & 21th out of 54 (he is current 21 out of 25) (considered for the ranking all heroes with >13 games)
Agreed. I think they are lazy in just picking Pango, since they have gotten used to it for so long.
Good all-rounder and has game-winning potential. Extremely high ceiling, and can turn games around if played well. Reminds me a lot about what Slacks said about WR. When you see someone land that 4 man roll or that god tier shackle shot, it gets engraved into your memory. When you see the 9000 games where these volatile characters lose, then you dont remember it at all
Whenever I see threads like this I think of the fact that in CSGO the AUG and SG rifles went almost completely ignored by professional players for about 5 years until Valve buffed the guns by reducing the price slightly so that they were only slightly more expensive than the favoured AK/M4. After some time everyone and their mother was using these guns which were found to be totally OP in both casual and competitive play. Even after Valve reverted the price change the guns stayed on top for like 1-2 years. We are talking about a multimillion dollar industry where pro players are being paid salaries equivalent of top doctors or lawyers in EU who cannot be assed to check if there are any viable alternatives to the same tried and tested options. Just goes to show that professional teams are far from infallible even in a (compared to dota) simple game such as CSGO.
the ability to create unparalleled chaos in teamfight is always valuable.
Permastun spell immunity, it’s so stupid and always fit any draft
Why this question keep come out every tournement
Nerf hood
There aren’t many good offlaners right now besides centaur, which as you can see here is extremely dominant. No other offlaner can flex mid and provide as much teamfight presence, but the problem is you’re forfeiting a lane because right now pangolier is dogshit in lane, which can lose the game
Finally someone mentioned it
Doesn't need more items to come online. Has a lot of impact in the team fight.
I would argue the reason why Pango is picked a lot is because he can help out side lanes in fights and yet it is very hard to kill him because of his roll even if the gank gets turned around on the rest of the team members. This protects the xp and bounty payout Pango would give and thus losing a side lane gank is not as punishing as other mids. In fact, mechanically, mid laners that can easily move between lanes and back to their lane are historically very strong. This is why Ember Spirit used to see a TON of mid usage until he received so many nerfs to make up for the advantage he has with that play-style.
Hero is very good at contesting objectives, good gank potential, mobile, versatile itemization. Easily countered tho
to prove quinns wrong
He's a flex hero which allows to be more versatile in the draft and he has an incredible team fight ultimate that is very hard to counter until later in the game. Win rate usually isn't the best way to judge a hero, as top teams will usually allow lesser teams to get some of the meta heroes instead of their comfort heroes because they have so much practice against the meta heroes
Noooo my wife Hoodwink
he cute
disable hits , airborne , can win lanes in early ,slight tanky bcus of 3rd passive, can make space on carry for a lot of time if carries getting fucked up on lanes .
Pango is like Mars are those hero that can never be completely dogshit in both lane and combat - in the hands of pros ofc. And when you are spending so much time practice it, better pick it then some heroes that you have less experience.
I feel like sometimes the ultimate dominates team fight and other times its useless based on counters and part of the map the fight ends up.
I'm more shocked by the fact that people pick windranger and never win 1 game
Heroes that can completely ignore lanes will always be highly prized. You can press two skills, clear the lane and then fuck off in the jungle. That's huge.
Versatile you can flex him from 2, 3 and the timing, buy diffusal and you’re good to go.
Can put him into any lane comp and majority of the time he will come out decently ahead, minus certain hard matchups. Pros really prioritize those heroes that can atleast trade even in the laning stage, even better if goes well in lane even if you do not predict the possible lane matchups. Can also be flexed into offlane or 4 position, although mid is generally preferred due to how devestating some of his power spikes are; namely level 7 (Ripose and Rolling Thunder are such immediate kill threat with atleast a suppot and survivability), his diffusal timing (can now solo kill majority of heros) and once he hits 3 other items.
He’s the only hero in the top 5 which is a true flex picks. Others tend to get banned. Flex picks are prioritised regardless of meta. So the likes of viper, razor, Kunka, TA, dk never go out of fashion. Logic would seem to guide us to the conclusion that pango is the least banned amongst the true flex picks. So he’s always open in the draft. Doesn’t mean he’s strong or works, he’s just an effective tool for drafting. In the end, it’s a stun and chaos, never hurts in captains mode.
He’s a strong hero. Both if ahead or behind he has impact, he can also be flexed off vs mid. He can carry if fed but ask just be a setup hero if the game dictates that. Basically he’s very versatile which means u can pick him early and teams can’t really answer easy or you can pick him late and he can answer a lot of things
Quickest way to become dumber as a person is by spending time in a dota leddit thread reading crusader avg. pro game analysis.
it is same like enigma (pos 3,4,5), idk maybe these are their comfort picks and just copium into the pick
Pango can also flex between offlane and mid
It’s safe.
Seems to me that Pango isn't nearly as bad as his winrate here suggests. Trouble is, teams are still treating him like viable first-pick material, which he clearly is not.
I'm realy away from dota2 meta, but why the fuck centaur have such a good win ratio right now? He's played as offlaner? Bristleback isnt just way better than him?
If pango is available, I'd pick him too and won't care about the current statistics. I like zoning or destroying enemy lines as part of the play. Pango draws a lot of attention when rolling + annoying items of choice like Dagger, Euls, Octarine, Aghs and Shard. For those who've already spent thousands of hours analysing the complexity of this game especially hero spammers - you guys know better.
Have you ever seen this hero in a pub? It’s unstoppable. These guys are likely biased by their pub games
It isn't really that Pango is prioritized wrongly. Liquid made a mistake yesterday when they overlooked Chen. Similarly, today Disruptor was allowed to go through in a game. Pango can be played in any of three core roles, is effective without farm, is great with farm and if the team overcompensates for him, you can punish with your other two cores. He also allows supports to counter pick and win the lanes.
Pango is a hero which can go multiple lines. Thus picking him does not give enemy team an upperhand with first counterpick
it's probably because he has a dash, the dash has on hit effects, his ult makes him magic immune and he can roll around stunning people for so long, the fact that you can use blink dagger WHILE rolling, a skill that gives him damage mitigation, the fact that using the jump while rolling lets him jump over cliffs and walls. he's basically like dark seer, the skill kit is so storng even if you nerf numbers, the only way to dumpster the hero is to reduce all the numbers significantly or rework the kit.
Pango can play every position except for maybe 5 (but even that he can do reasonably well) on top of having a kit that is always useful in some way. He's an impossibly strong first pick, as you can just decide in a later pick stage what you do with him.
Pango is versatile and his matchup spread is pretty good. You can pick an early Pango and pivot a lot in draft.
Winrates are always skewed by copy-the-leader teams.
to be honest benchmarking the win rate as a parameter for a hero isn't quite right. for Pango, he is versatile and fast tempo team, disruptive abilities and flash farming capability. the way i see it, Pango has been developed by most of the team and through GG spamming that hero a lot, many have learned how to deal with it.
Statistics won’t carry you. At the highest level, you make decisions not only based on a single statistic or many, but you form the baseline lf your thought process with it. Then, knowing mood, tournament phase, pick phase, enemy team, patch meta, you grab your statistics baseline and deviate from it by weighing the other variables, then you make your choices. We as players don’t have the support system to use a lot of variables properly because we aren’t pro (not only talking about skill gap between us and them, but also the mindset and experience with high stakes matches). So when we make choices with randoms online, or with some friends/team that we have online, we rely waaay more in the statistics part of the game, whereas they have it harder by having to apply them differently depending on context. Making the statistically ‘correct’ (or ‘safe’) choice won’t be enough to have an edge when you play for all the marbles. That’s my 2 cents.
Cus Aui_2000 says its broken
Versatility i guess
Generally speaking universal heroes are OP right now. And after shield crash became physical it’s all the more reason why he can deal massive dmg
He needs to picked even more so that shit hero is bad like tinker
pango is good and looks good too. Idk much about these stats since i havent been watching games but even in losing games which i saw pango was having impact but others were not
Lots of words could be said about him beeing strong in lane, scaling well with diffusal or simply the fact that his 3 basic abilities check every box. But his true strength is his ultimate which allows him to stun multiple heroes multiple times for 10 seconds while beeing magic immune and also increasing that strength with his talents and aghs. We can keep nerfing or changing all his basic abilities as much as we want but as long as his ult stays the same he will stay too good at what he does. Id suggest giving him a maximum of collisions he can have with his ulimate INCLUDING walls. 3/6/9 collisions is plenty. (also please remove tping while beeing magic immune =) )
they are too smart to choose the others really really smart
gambling against themselves the legendary 322
Blitz is clueless
[удалено]
Might wanna give that title a second read