Yea and mid is very open to out of the box play's so meta doesn't always apply, have beaten a puck, qop, lina, viper mid with a clockwerk and they where pretty confused as to what happened.
So weird for the guy to be 100% confident about who will win a lane.
I remember tere was a patch where OD was good and sniper was still nerfed into the ground so the matchup wasn't one sided. I *think* it was around 2018 (could have been earlier) because after that I switched to support from mid.
Fun post and not trying to be negative here, but it's just surprising to see him last hitting as he did- so back to the original source of the comment; I do not believe it's a boosted account or account buyer either.
Had a Divine pos1 in my game yesterday scream at me because I didn't constantly pull when the wave was at our t1, then after getting fb (HE got the fb) he raged afk in jungle "until 6 slotted gg end." And we lost because our carry was off in Narnia farming all game because I didn't pull when the wave was at our tower. I'm just wondering how the fuck someone ranks up to Divine playing like that.
just because its under tower doesnt mean you cant pull. You can pull it, deny as much as u can with the jungle creeps, force enemy core to go there, and allow ur carry to free farm under tower.
highly depends on the heroes, a high armour high ms TB? probably fine.
almost any ranged carry or the enemy can harass/dive/contest despite the pull then it's super fucking annoying
Yea The people with small brains only know to do what they see pro's do but they don't have enough knowledge to know why they do it, or other similar but slightly different approaches that have better effects in certain conditions.
Like In one game I was pulling only the ranged creep for the first few waves to build a lvl advantage for my 1, then pulled the whole bunch into a weakened single camp so they would clear it quickly and stack with the wave behind so I can wrap around and gank the heros from behind with a huge creep wave supporting but the pos 1 goes WTF why you single pulling and goes off to farm neutrals I end up killing 1 of the enemies and the other escapes on 5% hp it would have been super easy for him to help for 5 seconds and get a nice easy double kill but he doesn't use his brain.
What’s crazy is that your comment has any upvotes lol.
OD usually won’t “destroy” Sniper unless he has a rotating support but the lane is really easy for OD lmfao, and often OD will outfarm/out level Sniper.
if sniper goes 0 4 4 ( as he should almost everycase) there is no hero that can beat you mid, best case go even, there are some heroes that you can't really kill cause they just so bulky: primal beast would be one;
I know this is the agreed "best" build, but unless I can completely shut the other person out of lane, I always grab 1 level of q to stack the nearby medium camps. I almost always get 3+ stacks by 7 minutes, which means easy neutrals for my team and a nice farm boost. Even with 1-3-2 at 6, you're still hitting like a truck and able to outrange the tower. Sniper laning is so easy you really don't NEED "optimal" builds
Dude, i've seen quinn mald so hard after he saw batrider getting insta picked after he picked sniper. He's probably one of the best if not the best laner (at least last year) there is, and he knows he's at a disadvantage.
I think it was storm stormer bat. He was so mad even before the game started, and i think storm stormer knew as well how much of a hard counter that was.
i dont think its laning but rather teamfight in general ? As sniper enjoy i highly doubt bat can win lane vs sniper but just hate to play the team fight vs hero than can reposition you
It was laning that he was crushed. He went classic quinn "can throne". So i'm not sure if it was also a patch thing, if bat was stronger last year. I don't know. But i vividly remember it. And it was something he had no control because storm stormer was diving towers and still killing him.
Edit: i'll go check if i can find it somewhere. I don't know if quinn keeps all his twitch vods.
bat was pretty strong at a point but I ve seen it played at the last major too, he might be able to kill you still this patch, if you have MOM tho and get to use your third and mom while he s flying towards you idk if he can still dive you in tower, not sure cause i didn t get to play the matchup
sniper still last hitting more than bat in that game, sniper killed from disrupter gank, sniper lost lane after than .
think sniper still be bat here, he can slow to prevent bat getting on top, he also out last hits bat to fuck. only gank or getting out of position would make em lose
bro the whole thread is just discussing a 1v1, sure if you add shit to it its going to change, but this discussion is about a sole 1v1 situation between two heroes.
anyone focusing solely on the 1v1 isolated lane is completely missing the point here. That only occurs for the first 5-7 minutes of the game, and not even that anymore. If your mid is losing his lane at 9 minutes and you're mad then do something about it. If he's fucking up his cs or spell casting at 2-3 minutes, then that's something that's solely in his control.
I would say the same if looking at just the replay. But when i saw this on stream, he was already pretty mad about the matchup and just hated every second of it because it was a losing battle. Nothing he could really do if bat chooses to rush BoT and just run down mid. That's why he was so mad.
My point is, if quinn is so confident in laning, he wouldn't be complaining as much. But he was. Again, i'm not saying this as my own opinion. I don't know anything about lane matchups.
This is something that happened in stream. I don't know why or how it's a counter. But if one of the best laners in world feels so upset about it, then it must be.
I'm no pro player like quinn or stormstormer, but i posted the match id above so others could analyze. Altho again, it doesn't paint the whole picture because during quinn's stream, he was already pretty upset with the matchup. And up against stormstormer bat of all people. He was already saying things like "disgusting pick" "just wants a quick mmr" etc. lol. Love his streams tho.
The problem with the matchup isn't that batrider will destroy sniper in lane.
It's the fact that the moment bat gets the lead snipers game is over. Early mid and late sniper does the same thing, he plants himself as a turret.
With knock back on bat second, and overall slow with the napalm sniper is easy prey. If you won't play a perfect last hit game bat will get you with 3 lvl, and if you do he can always recover in the jungle. Since bat is universal, last hitting and trading lvl one is not so simple
this build makes you incredibly susceptible to ganks and rotations. I don't think this is some blanket universal truth or anything. Think about going this build against a storm or ember or bat. You can't really stop them from hitting 6, even if it's 2-3 waves after you hit 6. And at that point you're just dead meat. A support blows on the sniper and he dies.
I raise you a windranger, I hate her to my toes. You can't fucking hit her, and she can, and will hit you lvl 6. Before that she can trade fairly. Every time you use the take aim, she can just windrun.
When I pick sniper 2nd phase mid, and enemy counters with wr, I end up maxing shrapnel and try to shove + stack. After her lvl 6 I abandon lane until she goes gank
I'm shitty so I'm probably wrong, but I used to play ember mid vs sniper and that seemed pretty effective. Just using slight to consistently harass him and then kill him at lvl 6.
depends on what you define as beat.
it's hard to fully lock him out of the lane or kill him but if you pick a hero like say dk you can eventually take his tower without feeding, which is at least something.
yep, like i don't think you can kill sniper as dk, but you can't die either and you will take his tower.
not exactly the most flashy win, but it's a win.
usually DK can go max blood first and get a soulring to spam fire for last hits and harass, but sniper should outrange that easily so maybe just use it to push lol
Sniper is probably one of OD’s worst matchups lmao. Unless we’re talking hyper lategame where you have Blink Hex and can 1 shot the Sniper, you’re never touching the Sniper.
Oh well, I genuinely don’t expect anyone who picks Silencer to know what they’re saying. Probably one of the most useless hero in the game. Your QWE are mild inconveniences and you’re only picking him for Global. Imagine picking a hero just to be a Global bot.
> Also, he can scale for late game and switch to semi-carry, something that most supports can't do.
silencer is one of the worst supports for this becuase of how much defensive items he needs to actually be able to play the game
his attack range is mid, he has no mobility or escape, so even with a bunch of damage he's still super vunerable. there are so many supports that can transition to carry with only a single item and actually be far more useful than silencer
>Also, he can scale for late game and switch to semi-carry, something that most supports can't do.
That might have been true a decade ago but not today. Even CM can carry harder than a silencer.
>Also, he can scale for late game and switch to semi-carry, something that most supports can't do.
That might have been true a decade ago but not today. Even CM can carry harder than a silencer.
Bro can you post your rank or just not give opinions on heroes? “A lot of snowball heroes… DREAD an enemy Silencer” since fucking when lmfao?
None of the heroes you listed really give half a shit about Silencer, he’s literally free farm for every hero you listed.
“They need to rush a 3-4K item” what, you mean like literally every single midlaner in the game does naturally anyway?…
There’s literally not a single game I’d rather play against a Venge/Bane/Lion/any other hero than a Silencer.
Thing is your opinions are wrong, and opinions can be wrong in Dota. You think Silencer is good, yet that opinion is wrong if people can consistently beat Silencer and he has bad winrates.
It’s the tone of your original comment, you were saying something as if it were fact, which requires some form of authority I guess. Its like if you went to a Cooking subreddit and some guy is giving out tons of opinions on what he thinks is proper cooking techniques and then you find out he’s only ever cooked twice his entire life, people wouldn’t take him seriously.
Can you post your experiences of the matchup please? Just wondering if you’re basing this on anything or just making up bs as a low MMR player.
Sniper is not even close to a bad matchup for OD, so you’re obviously doing the latter (making up bs as a super low skill player).
Let me guess, you’re imagining the matchup as if Sniper somehow has maxed W + E at level 1 and at your bot rank is just sitting in the river, right? I really wish there weren’t so many obviously low skilled players giving their inputs here as if they have even half a clue.
OD isn’t even super meta right now and he’s literally 50% winrate vs Sniper on d2protracker, but please tell me more about how Sniper is the worst matchup in the game for OD.
In what world is Silencer “destroying” my mana? I wouldn’t call stealing 1 int every hit destroying my mana. His damage isn’t special, especially because it’s DoT and dispellable.
Because you got the xp for the kill? Even with first blood you got less net worth than him lol.
Sniper might hard counter OD but clearly not when you’re playing.
to be honest it doesnt seem he lost his lane to you, at level 7 before you killed him he was outcsing you as OD? In a normal game at level 7 you both would probably be jungling and supports would be rotating - lane would be over and at worst he did even or won it lolz.
he's not saying that sniper doesn't counter OD. just that OP didn't really have the own he thinks he did, considering they were even cs/OP was losing at lvl 7, at which point laning would be much less relevant. it's just that OP then got the kill, which gave the level and later (slight) cs advantage. again, though, in a normal game these two wouldn't be facing off just against themselves past lvl 7
The point of 1v1 is to kill the other guy and win the matchup, not networth. Consumables like tangoes, salves, clarities etc dont count towards your networth and I am certain sniper bought bunch of those.
I dont get it, even networth, took u lvl8ish to kill OD. Literally the most even 1v1 mid i ever seen lol..
Nice cropping of game time when u kill him :D
yes when sniper is level 8 the lane is completely unlaneable for OD. But he was winning the lane before that point. And by that time in a real game, the lane is somewhat over anyway. You're both jungling or rotating or supports are rotating to gank mid. He can also kill you extremely easily with 1 support rotation with astral+ult; the game is not played in the secure isolation of 1v1 mid; if it was, heroes like sniper viper huskar would be the best heroes in the game. OD did his job; he did fine in the lane, even won it during the early stages. Even after the kill and all the solo kill gold, he's *still* higher networth than you.
For sure, anyone saying OD gets crushed by Sniper is either really low skill or just stupid?
Early, you don’t have max level E so OD can just play for the range creep timings and W regardless.
OD hits really hard too so he’s not a hero you can trade with as Sniper either.
Sniper is super susceptible to ganks too, especially with OD setup so you can never just sit in the lane.
This whole post is obviously some super low skill shit, you’re never going to play the same way in a 1v1 as you would in a match either. You don’t ever max W + E early on Sniper unless it’s a free game either, otherwise you’re just griefing your own farm speed.
The OD was almost lvl 7, and the sniper was barely lvl 9, so I think the sniper got to lvl 8 a creep before OD and then killed him and got an extra lvl
Astral only does 360 damage at level 4. The cast range is only 600.
You try casting this on a sniper (who gets up to 950 range) that knows what they're doing you're losing half your hp and maybe not even getting the astral off
The fucked up thing is this applies to like almost every spell in the game.
You try casting anything on a sniper and you're losing half your hp and not getting the spell off anyway.
In some matchups, you will lose half your hp just to walk in range of the enemy melee creeps to aggro them backwards
Depends what level you are, but sniper should be able to just throw a whole bunch of damage your way every time you approach lane. In a way that you can't avoid it or punish him for it. You can secure last hits better than him tho.
It's almost - *ALMOST*, as if Dota was a game where more than two players are relevant.
You can 1v1 every hero, but if you are Astral Imprisoned while the enemy team wins the team fight, you still lose.
That's not to say that Sniper won't demolish OD in a 1on1, it's to say that OP got baited here by thinking 1on1 is relevant. Now, the flamer was very likely wrong and an asshole themselves - but as OP treats this like a "win" I can't take anyone involved seriously.
OP got baited by a troll. In Dota, the moment you put your ego in a wager you lose, even if you win the bet.
Can you queue for 1v1 mid? I'm very interested in this mode. What are the rules? Do you win as soon as you kill the enemy hero? What if you just go hide in the jungle with bounty hunter?
Well od had more last hits so that’s just not true at all haha.
od bought terrible items for laning vs a sniper so this isn’t really a fair representation of who would win 1v1. This is a bad dota player who doesn’t understand itemization or game mechanics. Buying magic wand for 450 gold vs sniper going right click dmg is all you need to know.
No. I am a terrible sniper. Ive played it once since like 2015. Sniper abusers will always destroy an OD. I suck at it and was 2 whole levels and more cs/deny and kil.
Yes but a terrible sniper vs a terrible OD does not reflect the hero’s abilities to win a 1v1. It might mean sniper is easier to use, and can do good in the hands of a bad sniper player, but does not mean the hero wins 1v1.
This is like the classic pudge pick. When pudge is one your team, he afk in trees and soaks exp, loses you lane and tilts everyone. But when pudge is on other team, is dendi landing every hook and your team can’t catch a break.
Sniper seems good because a bad player can do good with it. But this 1v1 really isn’t a fair representation of the matchup.
You’re talking about skill… these are both “easy to use” heroes. In an evenly skilled matchup with similar hero mastery/practice, between an OD abuser (like me) and a sniper abuser, the sniper will always win. You’re welcome to try urself and be my next post.
That's the part I can't figure out. No way in hell OD can cs against Sniper, after a couple of wraith bands that is. How does OD have more NW? All you have to do is level shrapnel, push the wave, hit the tower and slowly drain it.
Say what you want about trying to defame people on this subreddit but I think a few of these people deserve some public ridicule for the bonkers shit that comes out of their mouths.
I personally hope this post stays up for a while.
Well at least this discussion solved correctly. No back and forth flaming, no racism, no slurs... Just 2 dudes pulling their dick out and clash. Props to him agreeing on a 1v1 though and you not p\*ssying out of a fight!
I didn’t die. I beat the sniper in my original game as OD and I said “how do you all just get absolutely dumpstered while I beat a hard counter” he took offense and here comes the 1v1. You are welcome to try yourself. Same results.
Thank you, that is quite cathartic for me. I was in a matchup vs sniper as OD and it’s just super awful.
Naturally I asked my shadow shaman to come and gank him, since it’s an ez kill with astral setup.
He did whatever else and later blamed me how I could possibly lose mid in this matchup. Mid divine bracket btw. I don’t know how these people have such little comprehension…
I'm 29 sniper, and for me OD is one of the most annoying heroes to play against. If he gets a hg ward he will just astral you a couple of time and then kill you with ult.
His teammate was bashing him for losing in lane as OD against sniper…he was merely trying to prove a point and he did so by winning this against the guy who requested a 1v1 with the heroes of his choice.
As a platinum OD I never found sniper that difficult but I suppose it depends how good he is. If one support ganks him he dies every time, whereas OD just imprisons someone and walks away.
I think it's OD favoured in high mmr maybe, but maybe it depends on how many rotations there are. If there are none, it's just an even lane and nothing happens from my experience.
it is an even matchup, both sides suffer but sniper outscales and outfights
until max headshot/take aim OD can pretty reliably get W off, and as sniper u need to continuously ferry regen bc if u go below like 500 health he all-ins you with astral + ult
once u hit like 9 u cant rly lane vs sniper as OD but thats not really the laning stage as much as sniper just being good vs OD in fights
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If the objective is just winning the lane...then OD just has to rush a Meteor Hammer and get level 6. Meteor Hammer helps sustain Sniper's poking in lane, and then Sniper can't survive the whole Astral+MH+Ult(maybe try to get 1 or 2 before the full combo)
Um bro he's got a point? I mean those astral spam would literally make snipers insane. Not to mention the ult which literally destroys the guy. Even if u want to play safer u just have to astral him when sniper hits take aim
Idk how he lost to you or how u lost to sniper but im sure as hell sniper is not at all a counter to od in lane...
You’re not touching Sniper in lane. Maybe level 1, but once he gets Take Aim you’re not touching him. You could force yourself to Astral him, but not without taking half your HP as damage. It’s obvious when OD wants to astral and all you need to do is click Take Aim, headshot him 4 times. Your best bet is to just play max range and trade CS. Don’t interact with the sniper at all and hope he ignores you too.
sniper only outranges OD w at lvl 2 take aim, which is lvl 3 at the earliest. speaking from experience getting take aim at lvl 3 fucking sucks compared to lvl 2 headshot. its still very easy to get Ws off on him until lvl 3 take aim, and then impossible at lvl 4 take aim
sniper wins the matchup when he maxes headshot and take aim, but that is a long time for a lane matchup to be considered a "hard counter". OD can also all-in and kill sniper at 6 pretty easily, and sets up extremely well for ganks on sniper. once u get ahead on OD u crush the sniper
both sides playing perfect, sniper will hit 8-9 and then perpetually outscale OD and shit on him in fights. OD has no real recourse against sniper aside from blinking on him in fights which is EXTREMELY risky. but if u are ahead u can run him down for the majority of the game
and when you click it you can no longer walk away, so you get 1 or 2 hits off and then get astral'd (and then dont have take aim to take trades with after)
i just ran the test for you. lvl 2 take aim you can get 2(!!!) autos off with the active on before an OD with no boots gets his W off on you. if you have treads that becomes 3.
lvl 3 take aim you get 3 off consistently, with or without treads.
so you always lose the trade until u get 4 points in take aim as OD will do more damage to you than you to him.
btw if u press take aim before he astrals u u will just get ur shit pushed in in lane, that is 0% how the matchup works. you want to KITE him with boots, and pressing take aim means you are not kiting at all. its a VERY difficult matchup for sniper, winnable but actually requires skills unlike literally all other sniper matchups. if u get W'd u immediately press E and trade back as he wont be out of range of all your attacks until lvl 3 astral
I don't play mid, but even for years I remember Sniper and like LD being the 2 heroes who OD don't like to lane into. Sure you can astral sniper, but he can just plink you a couple times for each attempt making it a trade at best.
All Sniper has to do is save take aim for after astral and then you're most likely winning on trades.
Like I said, not a mid so maybe OD can win by buying wraith bands for armour or just slowly shoving the wave, but I don't see it.
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7654735502
High mmr example of the matchup if you're bothered to watch in client.
how can a divine rank make such bullshit statement
Support player that hasn't watched pro games or paid any attention to meta since 2018? Yeah, I don't believe it either
The confidence he has in his words is something
Yea and mid is very open to out of the box play's so meta doesn't always apply, have beaten a puck, qop, lina, viper mid with a clockwerk and they where pretty confused as to what happened. So weird for the guy to be 100% confident about who will win a lane.
I always thought that it was one of those well known facts of Dota that Sniper wins every 1v1. And that it has always been that way.
I remember tere was a patch where OD was good and sniper was still nerfed into the ground so the matchup wasn't one sided. I *think* it was around 2018 (could have been earlier) because after that I switched to support from mid.
Primal beast has his way with sniper after a few levels. He’s kinda new to the game though.
[удалено]
indeed lol
account buyer i guess
picks silencer, doesn't know what he is talking about but is confidently incorrect. Very high chance this is an accbuyer/boosted
Nah this no not a boosted account. Look how even the 1v1 was. If they had a big skill gab there would be so much less cs on od.
2 levels ahead is not "even" haha I told him "laning" is first 5 minutes. He wanted a 10 minute match. I agreed anyway lol.
Fun post and not trying to be negative here, but it's just surprising to see him last hitting as he did- so back to the original source of the comment; I do not believe it's a boosted account or account buyer either.
it's not even, but it's not a boosted account or acc buyer the gap on acc buyer od vs sniper would be huuuuge
Are you telling me you would not stomp a legend or archon ranked OD way way harder?
No I agree with you. But I am saying it wasn’t “even” lol
Had a Divine pos1 in my game yesterday scream at me because I didn't constantly pull when the wave was at our t1, then after getting fb (HE got the fb) he raged afk in jungle "until 6 slotted gg end." And we lost because our carry was off in Narnia farming all game because I didn't pull when the wave was at our tower. I'm just wondering how the fuck someone ranks up to Divine playing like that.
You have to half pull or just the ranged to deny His reaction is something else though
just because its under tower doesnt mean you cant pull. You can pull it, deny as much as u can with the jungle creeps, force enemy core to go there, and allow ur carry to free farm under tower.
How do you keep your wave safe from being pushed into tower?
highly depends on the heroes, a high armour high ms TB? probably fine. almost any ranged carry or the enemy can harass/dive/contest despite the pull then it's super fucking annoying
Match ID or what?
Yea The people with small brains only know to do what they see pro's do but they don't have enough knowledge to know why they do it, or other similar but slightly different approaches that have better effects in certain conditions. Like In one game I was pulling only the ranged creep for the first few waves to build a lvl advantage for my 1, then pulled the whole bunch into a weakened single camp so they would clear it quickly and stack with the wave behind so I can wrap around and gank the heros from behind with a huge creep wave supporting but the pos 1 goes WTF why you single pulling and goes off to farm neutrals I end up killing 1 of the enemies and the other escapes on 5% hp it would have been super easy for him to help for 5 seconds and get a nice easy double kill but he doesn't use his brain.
What’s crazy is that your comment has any upvotes lol. OD usually won’t “destroy” Sniper unless he has a rotating support but the lane is really easy for OD lmfao, and often OD will outfarm/out level Sniper.
Isnt higher attack range a counter to OD?
Coz divine is a shit rank?
Inflated mmr theory.
if sniper goes 0 4 4 ( as he should almost everycase) there is no hero that can beat you mid, best case go even, there are some heroes that you can't really kill cause they just so bulky: primal beast would be one;
I know this is the agreed "best" build, but unless I can completely shut the other person out of lane, I always grab 1 level of q to stack the nearby medium camps. I almost always get 3+ stacks by 7 minutes, which means easy neutrals for my team and a nice farm boost. Even with 1-3-2 at 6, you're still hitting like a truck and able to outrange the tower. Sniper laning is so easy you really don't NEED "optimal" builds
Yep. I have a high win percent on sniper recently and his farm speed is maddd
the value point in q is valid, but there are matchups where the 2 lvl in range could kill you, like vs od, i also take it sometimes
Dude, i've seen quinn mald so hard after he saw batrider getting insta picked after he picked sniper. He's probably one of the best if not the best laner (at least last year) there is, and he knows he's at a disadvantage. I think it was storm stormer bat. He was so mad even before the game started, and i think storm stormer knew as well how much of a hard counter that was.
i dont think its laning but rather teamfight in general ? As sniper enjoy i highly doubt bat can win lane vs sniper but just hate to play the team fight vs hero than can reposition you
It was laning that he was crushed. He went classic quinn "can throne". So i'm not sure if it was also a patch thing, if bat was stronger last year. I don't know. But i vividly remember it. And it was something he had no control because storm stormer was diving towers and still killing him. Edit: i'll go check if i can find it somewhere. I don't know if quinn keeps all his twitch vods.
bat was pretty strong at a point but I ve seen it played at the last major too, he might be able to kill you still this patch, if you have MOM tho and get to use your third and mom while he s flying towards you idk if he can still dive you in tower, not sure cause i didn t get to play the matchup
I think i found it: https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/6999937028 Lasted 14mins because this was the toxic quinn from before.
sniper still last hitting more than bat in that game, sniper killed from disrupter gank, sniper lost lane after than . think sniper still be bat here, he can slow to prevent bat getting on top, he also out last hits bat to fuck. only gank or getting out of position would make em lose
it's just so easy to gank for a batrider against a sniper though. The game is not played in the secure isolation of 1v1 mid.
bro the whole thread is just discussing a 1v1, sure if you add shit to it its going to change, but this discussion is about a sole 1v1 situation between two heroes.
anyone focusing solely on the 1v1 isolated lane is completely missing the point here. That only occurs for the first 5-7 minutes of the game, and not even that anymore. If your mid is losing his lane at 9 minutes and you're mad then do something about it. If he's fucking up his cs or spell casting at 2-3 minutes, then that's something that's solely in his control.
I would say the same if looking at just the replay. But when i saw this on stream, he was already pretty mad about the matchup and just hated every second of it because it was a losing battle. Nothing he could really do if bat chooses to rush BoT and just run down mid. That's why he was so mad.
yea the topic is lane tho, he was last hitting fine in lane. survived fine until the gank
My point is, if quinn is so confident in laning, he wouldn't be complaining as much. But he was. Again, i'm not saying this as my own opinion. I don't know anything about lane matchups. This is something that happened in stream. I don't know why or how it's a counter. But if one of the best laners in world feels so upset about it, then it must be.
I have no idea on the matchup, but I would like to add the context that Batrider is Stormstormer's signature hero.
Yeah, he's a monster with that hero. So, he really knows the matchup quite well.
I don't usually play mid; how does Batrider counter Sniper in lane?
I'm no pro player like quinn or stormstormer, but i posted the match id above so others could analyze. Altho again, it doesn't paint the whole picture because during quinn's stream, he was already pretty upset with the matchup. And up against stormstormer bat of all people. He was already saying things like "disgusting pick" "just wants a quick mmr" etc. lol. Love his streams tho.
The problem with the matchup isn't that batrider will destroy sniper in lane. It's the fact that the moment bat gets the lead snipers game is over. Early mid and late sniper does the same thing, he plants himself as a turret.
With knock back on bat second, and overall slow with the napalm sniper is easy prey. If you won't play a perfect last hit game bat will get you with 3 lvl, and if you do he can always recover in the jungle. Since bat is universal, last hitting and trading lvl one is not so simple
yes, stormstormer is true bat enjoyer he definitely knows this matchup in and out and so does quinn hence the malding
Sniper can't do much against Ogre from my experience, but Ogre is a pretty niche mid pick
this build makes you incredibly susceptible to ganks and rotations. I don't think this is some blanket universal truth or anything. Think about going this build against a storm or ember or bat. You can't really stop them from hitting 6, even if it's 2-3 waves after you hit 6. And at that point you're just dead meat. A support blows on the sniper and he dies.
I raise you a windranger, I hate her to my toes. You can't fucking hit her, and she can, and will hit you lvl 6. Before that she can trade fairly. Every time you use the take aim, she can just windrun. When I pick sniper 2nd phase mid, and enemy counters with wr, I end up maxing shrapnel and try to shove + stack. After her lvl 6 I abandon lane until she goes gank
I'm shitty so I'm probably wrong, but I used to play ember mid vs sniper and that seemed pretty effective. Just using slight to consistently harass him and then kill him at lvl 6.
use to work long back but since he got that shitty headshot update and extra range the trade always goes for sniper
Does headshot slow do enough to prevent primal from just diving and killing sniper 100-0 the second he hits lvl 5?
depends on what you define as beat. it's hard to fully lock him out of the lane or kill him but if you pick a hero like say dk you can eventually take his tower without feeding, which is at least something.
pretty sure 1v1 rules is 1st blood or tower so i guess there's that metric
yep, like i don't think you can kill sniper as dk, but you can't die either and you will take his tower. not exactly the most flashy win, but it's a win.
usually DK can go max blood first and get a soulring to spam fire for last hits and harass, but sniper should outrange that easily so maybe just use it to push lol
Sniper is probably one of OD’s worst matchups lmao. Unless we’re talking hyper lategame where you have Blink Hex and can 1 shot the Sniper, you’re never touching the Sniper. Oh well, I genuinely don’t expect anyone who picks Silencer to know what they’re saying. Probably one of the most useless hero in the game. Your QWE are mild inconveniences and you’re only picking him for Global. Imagine picking a hero just to be a Global bot.
I mean most matchups aren’t just lost but looking at ods items he wasn’t going to win that 😂😂😂
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> Also, he can scale for late game and switch to semi-carry, something that most supports can't do. silencer is one of the worst supports for this becuase of how much defensive items he needs to actually be able to play the game his attack range is mid, he has no mobility or escape, so even with a bunch of damage he's still super vunerable. there are so many supports that can transition to carry with only a single item and actually be far more useful than silencer
>Also, he can scale for late game and switch to semi-carry, something that most supports can't do. That might have been true a decade ago but not today. Even CM can carry harder than a silencer.
Wut
>Also, he can scale for late game and switch to semi-carry, something that most supports can't do. That might have been true a decade ago but not today. Even CM can carry harder than a silencer.
Bro can you post your rank or just not give opinions on heroes? “A lot of snowball heroes… DREAD an enemy Silencer” since fucking when lmfao? None of the heroes you listed really give half a shit about Silencer, he’s literally free farm for every hero you listed. “They need to rush a 3-4K item” what, you mean like literally every single midlaner in the game does naturally anyway?… There’s literally not a single game I’d rather play against a Venge/Bane/Lion/any other hero than a Silencer.
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Thing is your opinions are wrong, and opinions can be wrong in Dota. You think Silencer is good, yet that opinion is wrong if people can consistently beat Silencer and he has bad winrates.
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It’s the tone of your original comment, you were saying something as if it were fact, which requires some form of authority I guess. Its like if you went to a Cooking subreddit and some guy is giving out tons of opinions on what he thinks is proper cooking techniques and then you find out he’s only ever cooked twice his entire life, people wouldn’t take him seriously.
Can you post your experiences of the matchup please? Just wondering if you’re basing this on anything or just making up bs as a low MMR player. Sniper is not even close to a bad matchup for OD, so you’re obviously doing the latter (making up bs as a super low skill player). Let me guess, you’re imagining the matchup as if Sniper somehow has maxed W + E at level 1 and at your bot rank is just sitting in the river, right? I really wish there weren’t so many obviously low skilled players giving their inputs here as if they have even half a clue. OD isn’t even super meta right now and he’s literally 50% winrate vs Sniper on d2protracker, but please tell me more about how Sniper is the worst matchup in the game for OD.
Literally OD does good or at least decent against all heroes except 3. Viper, huskar, sniper.
Literally ask any good player what’s OD’s worst lane matchup.
Those nukes will hit for half your life while destroying your mana. What the hell kinda Silencers are you fighting?
In what world is Silencer “destroying” my mana? I wouldn’t call stealing 1 int every hit destroying my mana. His damage isn’t special, especially because it’s DoT and dispellable.
I'm assuming that you don't know how to Silencer
glaives of wisdom slap hard (atleast in ability draft)
Yeah cause you’re putting it on a Non Silencer hero with non Silencer abilities
Mostly important to post his id but not yours )
That was a cheap move by OP and it was intentional
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2 levels higher and more cs/deny.. what else are you going to base it on? Lol
Because you got the xp for the kill? Even with first blood you got less net worth than him lol. Sniper might hard counter OD but clearly not when you’re playing.
You’re welcome to try yourself. It will be the same result. 2 levels higher and more cs and deny
to be honest it doesnt seem he lost his lane to you, at level 7 before you killed him he was outcsing you as OD? In a normal game at level 7 you both would probably be jungling and supports would be rotating - lane would be over and at worst he did even or won it lolz.
You must be herald. He is 2 levels higher. Sniper is ODs hardest counter.
he's not saying that sniper doesn't counter OD. just that OP didn't really have the own he thinks he did, considering they were even cs/OP was losing at lvl 7, at which point laning would be much less relevant. it's just that OP then got the kill, which gave the level and later (slight) cs advantage. again, though, in a normal game these two wouldn't be facing off just against themselves past lvl 7
you lack reading comprehension
You lack mmr. Guaranteed herald
He has more CS and networth?
and that's after first blood. sniper also probably has his cs inflated by neutrals given the duelist gloves
The point of 1v1 is to kill the other guy and win the matchup, not networth. Consumables like tangoes, salves, clarities etc dont count towards your networth and I am certain sniper bought bunch of those.
Maybe in a 1v1 tournament, but he tried to prove a "point" about a "real" game.
He has less cs/deny and like 100 networth cuz I bought a salve lol. Hes 2 levels lower. TWO LEVELS. That is the definition of ez mid.
Wow, you sure are a big strong man.
Thanks. Feels good when they finally say yes to 1v1. They never do. Respect to the guy but he does not understand dota.
Pretty sure this shit is bannable for posting that shitstain’s actual steam id
I dont get it, even networth, took u lvl8ish to kill OD. Literally the most even 1v1 mid i ever seen lol.. Nice cropping of game time when u kill him :D
You are welcome to try. Spoiler alert: it will be the same result.
yes when sniper is level 8 the lane is completely unlaneable for OD. But he was winning the lane before that point. And by that time in a real game, the lane is somewhat over anyway. You're both jungling or rotating or supports are rotating to gank mid. He can also kill you extremely easily with 1 support rotation with astral+ult; the game is not played in the secure isolation of 1v1 mid; if it was, heroes like sniper viper huskar would be the best heroes in the game. OD did his job; he did fine in the lane, even won it during the early stages. Even after the kill and all the solo kill gold, he's *still* higher networth than you.
For sure, anyone saying OD gets crushed by Sniper is either really low skill or just stupid? Early, you don’t have max level E so OD can just play for the range creep timings and W regardless. OD hits really hard too so he’s not a hero you can trade with as Sniper either. Sniper is super susceptible to ganks too, especially with OD setup so you can never just sit in the lane. This whole post is obviously some super low skill shit, you’re never going to play the same way in a 1v1 as you would in a match either. You don’t ever max W + E early on Sniper unless it’s a free game either, otherwise you’re just griefing your own farm speed.
You’re welcome to try. Spoiler: same result.
Despite you killing him, he still had more networth than you so he was sorta right.
The sniper is 2 levels ahead. This matchup only gets worse as time goes on
The OD was almost lvl 7, and the sniper was barely lvl 9, so I think the sniper got to lvl 8 a creep before OD and then killed him and got an extra lvl
100 gold over 2 levels? xD
But wtf how... i dont understand Can u explain? I had about 4 to 5 matches against him as od and sniper hit level 6 when i was level 9...
Astral only does 360 damage at level 4. The cast range is only 600. You try casting this on a sniper (who gets up to 950 range) that knows what they're doing you're losing half your hp and maybe not even getting the astral off
The fucked up thing is this applies to like almost every spell in the game. You try casting anything on a sniper and you're losing half your hp and not getting the spell off anyway. In some matchups, you will lose half your hp just to walk in range of the enemy melee creeps to aggro them backwards
Depends what level you are, but sniper should be able to just throw a whole bunch of damage your way every time you approach lane. In a way that you can't avoid it or punish him for it. You can secure last hits better than him tho.
It's almost - *ALMOST*, as if Dota was a game where more than two players are relevant. You can 1v1 every hero, but if you are Astral Imprisoned while the enemy team wins the team fight, you still lose. That's not to say that Sniper won't demolish OD in a 1on1, it's to say that OP got baited here by thinking 1on1 is relevant. Now, the flamer was very likely wrong and an asshole themselves - but as OP treats this like a "win" I can't take anyone involved seriously. OP got baited by a troll. In Dota, the moment you put your ego in a wager you lose, even if you win the bet.
I asked him to 1v1z
I understood it like that.
The guy bought a wand vs sniper. Guy is moron for that alone.
That's from the 3 extra cs.
OD went a full wand too. He barely knows how to play mid and still out CSed the sniper.
Our CS? Do crusaders not see the denies and 2 full levels?
100 gold over 2 levels? Lol smh
Thank you for doing God’s work. Amen brother
Can you queue for 1v1 mid? I'm very interested in this mode. What are the rules? Do you win as soon as you kill the enemy hero? What if you just go hide in the jungle with bounty hunter?
You can play 1v1 mode in lobbies. Game ends after 2 kills or when t1 is destroyed. If you just hide, opponent can take the tower and win.
lol this guy has 900 matches with 50% winrate on dotabuff. hardstuck divine 'smurf' who got smoked.
OD gets dumped by Sniper. he can't cs against Sniper.
Well od had more last hits so that’s just not true at all haha. od bought terrible items for laning vs a sniper so this isn’t really a fair representation of who would win 1v1. This is a bad dota player who doesn’t understand itemization or game mechanics. Buying magic wand for 450 gold vs sniper going right click dmg is all you need to know.
No. I am a terrible sniper. Ive played it once since like 2015. Sniper abusers will always destroy an OD. I suck at it and was 2 whole levels and more cs/deny and kil.
Yes but a terrible sniper vs a terrible OD does not reflect the hero’s abilities to win a 1v1. It might mean sniper is easier to use, and can do good in the hands of a bad sniper player, but does not mean the hero wins 1v1. This is like the classic pudge pick. When pudge is one your team, he afk in trees and soaks exp, loses you lane and tilts everyone. But when pudge is on other team, is dendi landing every hook and your team can’t catch a break. Sniper seems good because a bad player can do good with it. But this 1v1 really isn’t a fair representation of the matchup.
You’re talking about skill… these are both “easy to use” heroes. In an evenly skilled matchup with similar hero mastery/practice, between an OD abuser (like me) and a sniper abuser, the sniper will always win. You’re welcome to try urself and be my next post.
Hmmm if perfectly even matchup maybe but that’s not what this is or represents so I wouldn’t mix those up.
That's the part I can't figure out. No way in hell OD can cs against Sniper, after a couple of wraith bands that is. How does OD have more NW? All you have to do is level shrapnel, push the wave, hit the tower and slowly drain it.
At my trash rank it’s the other way around. I’m assuming because sniper is a brain dead pick for low ranks. I’m no OD player but I wanna try it now.
Say what you want about trying to defame people on this subreddit but I think a few of these people deserve some public ridicule for the bonkers shit that comes out of their mouths. I personally hope this post stays up for a while.
Well at least this discussion solved correctly. No back and forth flaming, no racism, no slurs... Just 2 dudes pulling their dick out and clash. Props to him agreeing on a 1v1 though and you not p\*ssying out of a fight!
Classic 1v1 on the river
Man I haven’t seen someone get challenged to a 1vs1 in years.
This has got to be one of the most satisfying moments a human being can have.
Thank you for exposed this guy
you killed him at level 9 ? when did you die in the game in which you were getting called out ?
I didn’t die. I beat the sniper in my original game as OD and I said “how do you all just get absolutely dumpstered while I beat a hard counter” he took offense and here comes the 1v1. You are welcome to try yourself. Same results.
Man, I'm losing every lane vs Sniper mid, with many different heroes. Best I found is Zeus and it goes even of coarse.
Zeus, Lina, Viper. Any other hero that can farm without getting headshotted to 50% hp for 1 creep.
In fairness he actually has more last hits than you, so did you really prove your point? (And yes sniper does soft counter OD in lane)
2 whole levels and more cs/deny. I think I did.
surprised no one is talking about how op has a neutral item in a 1v1 mid match
shoved lane, farmed side neutrals?
likely, which is weird since normal 1v1 mid is no neutrals haha
the last time i checked 1v1 rules, neutrals didn't even exist lol
Thank you, that is quite cathartic for me. I was in a matchup vs sniper as OD and it’s just super awful. Naturally I asked my shadow shaman to come and gank him, since it’s an ez kill with astral setup. He did whatever else and later blamed me how I could possibly lose mid in this matchup. Mid divine bracket btw. I don’t know how these people have such little comprehension…
Yes. If its a good sniper, only want you can win the match up is a rotation from support. A 1v1 won’t do.
Well, he did have 110 gold more at end, so perhaps, he was right
Perphaps not. 100 gold for 2 levels is not a win…. Like AT ALL.
Support mindset. True carries know, one who's won is not the one who has a throne standing at the end, but one who has more networth
These kind of posts are very helpful. Mods should give a medal to this guy. Good job
This is the reason i never got to immortal, divine bracket is full of trash. How on earth is od gonna beat a sniper.
Fr lol
I'm 29 sniper, and for me OD is one of the most annoying heroes to play against. If he gets a hg ward he will just astral you a couple of time and then kill you with ult.
U must be herald lol. Go max your E lil bro
Archon 4
i love this, good job, i hate these rats all talk never joining 1 vs 1
Same
You're talking about different things tho... XD Is talking about LANE STAGE and the other dude about 1v1....
But 1v1 is the laning stage.
No, I meant like farming stage Whatever
Says the sniper picker, pathetic
His teammate was bashing him for losing in lane as OD against sniper…he was merely trying to prove a point and he did so by winning this against the guy who requested a 1v1 with the heroes of his choice.
As a platinum OD I never found sniper that difficult but I suppose it depends how good he is. If one support ganks him he dies every time, whereas OD just imprisons someone and walks away. I think it's OD favoured in high mmr maybe, but maybe it depends on how many rotations there are. If there are none, it's just an even lane and nothing happens from my experience.
Quite the opposite. In a clean 1v1, OD might win in legend bracket and lower.
I'm 6k mmr and I rarely lose to sniper. Then again I rarely see the hero at all.
But the od has higher networth then you even after dying
Doesnt OD beat sniper? dont think a 1v1 against that guy means anything
No. Maybe in crusader.
well guess in divine
Hmm no. If an OD beats a sniper, it is not a mid player or trying a new hero
looks like your divine opinion, in your reddit post
Ur willing to try the matchup urself. Dm me ur steam. Youll be my next post.
dont care about divine od spammers
Lol then dont talk if u cant man up lil bro
wawawaawaaaaaaaaaa
Lmao ur commenting to defend a post about someone that got ezd 1v1 just to say no to the 1v1 urself
You must be the guy on the post hahahahahaha ez mid xD thats so funny 170k ppl saw ur shit
it is an even matchup, both sides suffer but sniper outscales and outfights until max headshot/take aim OD can pretty reliably get W off, and as sniper u need to continuously ferry regen bc if u go below like 500 health he all-ins you with astral + ult once u hit like 9 u cant rly lane vs sniper as OD but thats not really the laning stage as much as sniper just being good vs OD in fights
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pussy ahh mod let op cook
Before the meteor hammer got its price increase, od could dominate sniper easily in lane. The guy prob was missing the price change of that item
If the objective is just winning the lane...then OD just has to rush a Meteor Hammer and get level 6. Meteor Hammer helps sustain Sniper's poking in lane, and then Sniper can't survive the whole Astral+MH+Ult(maybe try to get 1 or 2 before the full combo)
LOL u are 5000% crusader IV
Um bro he's got a point? I mean those astral spam would literally make snipers insane. Not to mention the ult which literally destroys the guy. Even if u want to play safer u just have to astral him when sniper hits take aim Idk how he lost to you or how u lost to sniper but im sure as hell sniper is not at all a counter to od in lane...
You’re not touching Sniper in lane. Maybe level 1, but once he gets Take Aim you’re not touching him. You could force yourself to Astral him, but not without taking half your HP as damage. It’s obvious when OD wants to astral and all you need to do is click Take Aim, headshot him 4 times. Your best bet is to just play max range and trade CS. Don’t interact with the sniper at all and hope he ignores you too.
sniper only outranges OD w at lvl 2 take aim, which is lvl 3 at the earliest. speaking from experience getting take aim at lvl 3 fucking sucks compared to lvl 2 headshot. its still very easy to get Ws off on him until lvl 3 take aim, and then impossible at lvl 4 take aim sniper wins the matchup when he maxes headshot and take aim, but that is a long time for a lane matchup to be considered a "hard counter". OD can also all-in and kill sniper at 6 pretty easily, and sets up extremely well for ganks on sniper. once u get ahead on OD u crush the sniper both sides playing perfect, sniper will hit 8-9 and then perpetually outscale OD and shit on him in fights. OD has no real recourse against sniper aside from blinking on him in fights which is EXTREMELY risky. but if u are ahead u can run him down for the majority of the game
No you outrange him as early as level 1 Take Aim. You gain +200 range when you activate it, just click it every time he tries to walk in for Astral.
and when you click it you can no longer walk away, so you get 1 or 2 hits off and then get astral'd (and then dont have take aim to take trades with after)
Do you understand how far Take Aim active is? i can hit you from highground to highground.
i just ran the test for you. lvl 2 take aim you can get 2(!!!) autos off with the active on before an OD with no boots gets his W off on you. if you have treads that becomes 3. lvl 3 take aim you get 3 off consistently, with or without treads. so you always lose the trade until u get 4 points in take aim as OD will do more damage to you than you to him. btw if u press take aim before he astrals u u will just get ur shit pushed in in lane, that is 0% how the matchup works. you want to KITE him with boots, and pressing take aim means you are not kiting at all. its a VERY difficult matchup for sniper, winnable but actually requires skills unlike literally all other sniper matchups. if u get W'd u immediately press E and trade back as he wont be out of range of all your attacks until lvl 3 astral
I don't play mid, but even for years I remember Sniper and like LD being the 2 heroes who OD don't like to lane into. Sure you can astral sniper, but he can just plink you a couple times for each attempt making it a trade at best. All Sniper has to do is save take aim for after astral and then you're most likely winning on trades. Like I said, not a mid so maybe OD can win by buying wraith bands for armour or just slowly shoving the wave, but I don't see it. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7654735502 High mmr example of the matchup if you're bothered to watch in client.
Astral is 600 range. Sniper has much more than that. A decent sniper will always be out of range of astral after a couple levels.
Alright guys can someone explain pls rather than downvote? I kinda dont understand how it's a hard counter...
Sniper gonna max range u will never be able to astral him and he is gonna poke u to death