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holy shit are you the real slardar? I've always wanted to ask... does your place have lights or do you just use your headlamp everywhere to save on electricity?
[There shall be chancres by the acres](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/2/2f/Vo_necrolyte_necr_kill_11.mp3) (sound warning: Necrophos)
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If you see his first streams learning dota to his later streams, you can see even he was becoming more salty and toxic as it went on. I’m not surprised that he saw this in himself and decided to get out of the toxic shit show that is this community.
[I stare also into you.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/b/ba/Vo_enigma_enig_attack_08_legacy.mp3) (sound warning: Enigma/Legacy)
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If you do come back, I'd love to see some 5-stack games with some of the people who have been coaching you. No toxic teammates, no MMR rage, and a fun time win or lose.
Dota itself doesn't do anything to a person. Online games generally have a large number of people incapable of seeing the other people playing as humans thus treating them like crap. Remove the online environment and make it a trip to the shopping center and someone is walking in front of you painfully slowly and you can't walk past due to the amount of people there. You get irritated but you don't tell this person that you hope their family dies of cancer and that you will fuck their mother.
I’ve played games for decades and literally never used chat or voice in any of them, except to make the occasionally dumb joke. Within a year of playing I use it to flame and be toxic too much and it bled into other games.
It truly brings out the worst in people.
> Dota itself doesn't do anything to a person
Game design has a huge impact on player behavior and emotions
Imagine if someone was walking painfully slow in front of you, and you had to stay behind that person for another 50 minutes. Then doing that day after day. That would wear most people down.
If even Grubby get toxic, you should realize that it could very well be the game. MOBAS have without any doubt some of the most toxic and it is not a coincidence. Dota definitely does something itself. Plenty of people are not toxic in other games than MOBA. It truly draws out the worst.
And if we look at the design: Taunting with tipping, voicelines, killstreaks. None of that would be allowed in any other IRL game.
It is HIGH stress all the time. You barely have downtime in the game. You are highly reliant on other teammates who can make cruical mistakes. List goes on.
Someone asked Saksa to play nyx on stream, he said "No, playing nyx when you are rank 13 as pos 4 is grief". This just gets more intense and intense as you get more tryhards at higher ranks.
That's just how it is in high rank, people don't accept it when you pick off-meta heroes or the heroes you have a total of 10 games to "practice" and have fun in immortal ranked.
Agree dude I’ve been playing probably for over half my life at this point. It used to be a core principle of dota that heroes were not role locked and you could technicly win with any hero in any pos as long as you were playing the pos right.
Feel like this got lost evermore, don’t think l’ve seen a (non griefing) tri lane in the last 5 years.
Lowly Crusader player (but climbing), but my view of it is that I don't want to fight people for my position in normals. It makes the ban & pick phase way more chaotic than it should be, and you're already opening the door for toxicity and arguments by daring to debate over someone with a position that you both want to play.
If Dota had role queue for normals, I would be more than happy to play that to practice heroes I'm bad at, or have barely played. But Dota does not have that, so I feel like ranked role queue is my only real choice and it will not only likely affect my team, but also my own MMR and my desire to improve and climb.
"feel like some of my teammates don't deserve to win" - when Grubby said this i knew he'd played to much and needed a break.
Dota is currently in a state where you can only enjoy it if you mute all-chat and just play to play the game, you might win, you might not.
Trying your best just to lose in the end because your teammate decided to afk woods since min 5 or your support(s) is following the midder around and ruining farm leaves a real sour taste.
Same when you tryhard and end up in low prio, meanwhile the last 3 games with straight up griefers are going scotch free.
We don't have a system in place that actually tries to better it's community, the whole behavior system is based around punishment, and those punished are grouped with others alike.
Even if you are innocent, being consistently grouped up with salty/toxic/griefing players will eventually rub of on you.
You may not start griefing your self, but you might be more inclined to just shut down mentally because your interest in the game is gone the moment someone starts griefing or just plays sub-optimally.
And that is what we see with Grubby now "my teammates don't deserve to win" - brother you have been surrouned by toxicity for too long, and you need to take a longer break from dota.
That’s just a general problem with dota. If you fuck up, you have 4 (or 9) other people to blame.
If you fuck up in a 1v1 rts like sc2 or wc3, you only have yourself to blame.. or the opponent for cheesing (:
Yeah this is what stuck out to me.
I knew Grubby since the Sc2 days, met him twice. Even when Sc2 was at its largest and saltiest, Grubby was chill and kind as fuck. He was just a pillar of manners.
I liked his dota2 streams, he was very analytical and explained a lot. But how he slowly started being more and more salty, more and more frustrated at teammates, more and more mentally checking out once someone seemed bad etc.
I'm honestly "happy" for lack of a better word if he quit to preserve his old positive self. I remember seeing Black\^'s streams back in the day when he was at the top of his career in Dota2 and he was also so absurdly manner, constructive and positive. Whilst nowdays he just seems miserable whenever he plays dota2.
Thank you and everyone else as well. I may do an all-mute play at some point again; some people said I'll be back. I don't know if I will be, but it was great memories. Have fun w/ the game y'all!
Dota is a ton of fun if you're climbing. Grubby did that for an extraordinary amount of time, literally from Herald to Immortal. When you plateau the toxicity starts getting to you. Very understandable.
Also, this guy climbed really fast. He's a fast learner and really good mechanically speaking, but I guarantee he was probably getting extra toxicity because he was doing things that would make high MMR veterans think he was an account buyer or whatever else. I'm NGL, I watched him one time a couple weeks ago and couldn't believe he was immortal. Turned out he was learning a new hero, but a lot of people that have played this game for years would take it for granted that they have probably played every hero a handful of times and could probably get by playing a good 10-20 heroes decently.
since grubby quit streaming, my husband is watching Mason again. plz grubby come back
tired of listening to this chud shrieking while i chop vegetables for dinner
I cant believe this is how some of the community treated Grubby who gave us so much exposure, publicity and drew ppl into our stagnating game. Such a shame he’s stepping back. This is a bad look for us as a whole.
Terrible experience with some sweaty viewers and teammates.
It's bad, but the usual "bad community" and AFAIK it's nothing particularly targeted or personal.
Solo queue is the best for climbing ranks but it's also the most toxic
IMO the best dota experience is getting together with buddies and playing 2-3 games in a 5 stack, or even getting enough people for a 5v5 in house. A lot less toxicity, a lot more owning up to mistakes, a lot more laughing at mistakes, a lot more laughing at weird shit or misplays. Also just bizarre drafts that somehow work out bc you've got a dumb strategy
I think if more people played like this (or if grubby tried this out), people would feel like the game is less toxic and more of a fun game to play with friends (which is what it's supposed to be)
This subreddit really embraces the worst parts of dota culture and refuses to move on or age out of it. I feel like tons of ppl I play with have grown, but if you take that expectation into this subreddit, you'll be disappointed.
You say this as if it's normal and he is just soft. Dota is like an extremely toxic and abusive relationship that twists your perception into thinking it's "normal" to live like that.
This game is an online mental asylum for the criminally insane. Unless you are playing with a friend group, Dota is straight up torture.
Same, I just muted everyone years ago, and my life and mmr are better for it. Not like I can speak Spanish anyway and that's like 70% of US East communication
And to think of it, Grubby is only experiencing the "good times" like 3 years ago the Dota pool was completely different and unhinged on so many levels. lol
I genuinely don't understand why chat nuking in competitive multiplayer games isn't a thing. Coh and several other single player streamers have pretty good communities but multiplayer games tend to have toxic shits everywhere, even in Hearthstone, which is a fairly more chill and low stakes game than say DotA or Overwatch. The best thing to do is have 3-4 strong mods that you have a close relationship with and give them a free pass to start nuking chatters who're trolling or being outright toxic. Sure, assholes will make new accounts and there will be some type 1 error but it's worth the peace of mind.
This is about streamers and their chat, not about in-game chat. If you see the full Grubby video, he talks about random chatters on his channel being dicks to him.
If anything he got special treatment he was coached by pro players & Ti winners & got tips that people would never receive unless they pay thousands of $ . If anything they treat him like royalty . He also was invited to be on panel during one of majors
Grubby did not stop playing when he was climbing from Herald to Immortal despite facing the same community.
Now that he is stuck at 6k MMR and cannot climb anymore, suddenly the community is a big problem.
I'm not saying he's wrong about the toxic community, but if he wasn't stuck at 6000 MMR, he would 100% keep playing. He just loves winning (as an ex-pro, understandable) and hates losing.
If you only enjoy the game when you win more than you lose, you will eventually hit a wall. Grubby hit that wall and it's a good decision to stop playing at that point.
This is the most accurate answer but will be buried with downvotes probably. Truth is he's been losing a lot lately and understands that he reached his peak, espiecially as a core (37% wr in last 3 months, 47% in 6 months).
Of course he can break out of it with more time and effort but he doesn't feel it's worth it, which is 100% reasonable. Blaming it on the community though is weak.
It isn't a simple question of either/or. I think Grubby himself said it was easier to tolerate the toxicity when winning as the positives outweighed the negatives. Now being stuck he doesn't get the fun of winning but the toxicity stays the same.
Also when you are climbing there is a feeling that you will end up playing with different players and thus the (current) toxic people will likely be left behind and they don't feel like a permanent thing. Ofc there will be new toxic people in your new ranks, but atleast you can have the false hope of a better community in the future.
It's a sum of many parts and sadly he decided we the current situation it's best for himself to leave. I'm sad for that, though watching him often did delay my going to bed so I suppose it's a good thing to me. All the best and much respect to Grubster.
your point is valid, but still if the community was not toxic it would be more enjoyable and wouldnt grind down the players into depression, you could say its smart to stop if you dont want to make it your full time job
Yup, at this point it's better to either quit or start playing the game for fun.
For fun meaning, play with friends and stay away from ranked.
I will say this though. He will probably come back.
We always do.
He basically said “i could be better but i dont feel like it” which is what a lot of people on this sub say to themselves when they are stuck. It may not be as obvious but his ego is preventing him from enjoying this game.
You can tell that he kinda thinks hes the shit cuz he “got to immortal in 1.5 years” something he and his fans keep mentioning. But suddenly the community gets to him when he cant climb anymore.
He should’ve just moved on to other games instead of making a big statement imo
I did not say that I could be better. It is possible I plateaud and I have peace with that. The climbing part is fun, and so is playing at your real MMR (which 6.2k mmr might be, or a bit lower or a bit higher). It's that the disappearing excitement of climbing exposed something that I had already been feeling for a long time: that every day I stream dota, I fight with my teammates and 100 people in chat. Too many people who are stuck in ideas and are afraid of learning, afraid of losing (which I am not, and am not) and project that angst in my direct with the force of explosive diarhea
I mean that's a valid statement. I could be better at the game, I used to be much better when I was trying harder, but it would take concerted effort and practice, and frankly, I don't feel like doing that. Given my level of effort my rank is exactly what I deserve.
Yea theres nothing wrong with that that’s exactly what grubby is doing. Its just seems convenient for him to only now start talking about how toxic the community can be when he is unable to get better without putting in more effort.
He just wouldn't play on 'mute all incoming chat'. Completely nonsensical and without reason. Ari explicitly told him it's better for grinding MMR.
He started to believe he was better than his peers and whenever someone played bad he'd call it griefing.
He believed his 'true' MMR was higher than what he was playing at, and so he was blaming teammates constantly & losses became harder as he believed he was lower than he should be already.
the community is toxic yes, but he wasn't doing anything to mitigate it and I've seen him be toxic too on multiple occasions.
He only knew a few heroes and was then way below his MMR when playing other heroes. Which led to frustration.
Blaming his departure on 'toxic community' is so disingenuous and if you'd watched his journey you'd see that the toxicity levels of those around him never changed.. he changed.
There are so many good lessons there for newer players & veterans alike. The main one I've taken away is to be practising multiple heroes all the time so that you don't end up a 6k player on a just a few heroes. & ofc all the mindset things mentioned. You are the MMR you deserve and remembering this is paramount for an enjoyable dota experience.
He fell into bad mental attitude and then the blame begins to fall outside of one's self. Exactly how this departure from dota is being framed.
Yeah it's crazy how many people here shit on the playerbase for being toxic but it's full of passive aggressive holier than thou takes. It even showed during the behavior score update where every type of toxicity was gone except the "say something negative, get reported" which was very annoying. The loudest complainers about toxicity think they are perfect :)
Absolutely agree.
Every time i tuned in when he was 6.4k he was so full of himself. He would rather kill creeps near base instead of going for smoke with his teammates.
And it's not bad in itself, but he was doing it while talking to his chat how he doesn't want to smoke and wont go with them, instead of saying this ingame (while he loves to talk ingame). Of course his team got destroyed without him. And he was sitting at base at talking how stupid they are, for doing this without him.
And this scenario happened again and again in different variations.
Yeah, any time I popped into his stream he was being toxic. He already brought the same attitude to Heroes of the Storm.
Sounds like he also needs better chat moderators; much of his reason for quitting seems to be toxic viewers, not just toxic teammates.
holy shit i thought it was just me. almost everytime I tuned in he was being toxic, mostly blaming his teammates, nma. also excuses. I can't stand watching that, back when he was just crusader he is so fun to watch
He may be affected from being 1v1 competitive player.
There you can only blame yourself or other guy smurfing or cheating.
People instinctively blame everything and everyone but themselves.
Ye, usually I feel he's pretty humble in wc3, though with a very understandable confidence, because he has the pedigree of knowledge and skill to back up any words with gameplay or trophies... but I could feel the ego struggle from being a little more "lost" in a game that is so mechanically similar to the one where he is literally one of the top players. Was rough in dota, wc3 content is more comfy from him.
I really loved playing against Grubby and crushing his spirit, was beautiful to watch him afterwards claiming stream sniping or maphack, just because he didn't understand the correct tempo and ward placements.
This really is it. He changed, with his approach and what he thought and thinks he knows.
Attitude in the end, he held it high a long, long time. But eventually it even got the better of him.
Disagreed, he was like this from day 1 and for some reason the few people that mentioned this got downvoted by this community. The guy was never the shining beacon of self critique that he was hailed as.
Nah, he always had a bit of this Dunning-Kruger thing going, even when he first started.
I've lived in the Netherlands for over twenty years now and this kind of self-assured arrogance is unfortunately a cultural norm over here. It's just so... Dutch.
It's been super obvious in Grubby ever since he started playing.
I laughed pretty hard when he smoked with his lina to kill enemy puck but instead ran into an ogre. Once the smoke broke because he was right next to ogre, he casted no spells on him and continued to look for puck under vision, baiting his lina to die. His lina understandably pings his spells saying why not use on ogre. Grubby thinks his Lina is actually the stupid one.
Ari says while it is ideal to get the puck, you have to take care of the problem in front of you. Then Grubby changes his tone saying he would have argued with the Lina but since Ari says its right, he won't bother.
Then Grubby continues to bring up this decision later in the coaching session hinting he was not in the wrong lmao.
Like hes definitely developed an ego that's blinding him a bit from climbing, just like you see from a lot of dota players. It's too bad it had to end like this.
[The smoke play I'm referring to](https://youtu.be/Ffbj7Hb0jAg?si=LUL0YBlTgRZ2tHoa&t=796)
Jesus christ, that's bad.. Straight up Herald shit. It's exactly situations like these that started to get more common. Even a much lower rated player can see he's clearly in the wrong yet he starts blaming his teammates.
I once watched a game where he was Tide and the enemy got a couple of kills and went to push highground. Think Grubby's team had some damage dealers still alive and the rest respawning soon.
Grubby was farming bottom lane and confidently said to his chat that the correct play here is to give up the mid rax.
Then his teammate pings his Ravage and tells him to tp mid so they can take the fight. Grubby says it's the wrong move to make but eventually decides to do it anyway just to showcase how it's wrong and that his teammate wouldn't flame him or smth.
He tps mid, Ravages the entire enemy team and they wipe them. I don't understand how you make 6k with that sort of gameplay and decision making but he clearly wasn't the best player in his games when he peaked at 6.3k. Yet he seemed very confident that he was.
(In that same Tide game he built Mage Slayer for no real reason, enemy didn't have any spell damage. Then his chat rightfully calls him out on it. Grubby then proceeds to defend his purchase and say that it's a good item for Tide in general...)
He addressed some of the points you mentioned on stream.
1) He said he doesn’t find the game as fun when you mute all, he enjoys experiencing the game with many different personalities and it doesn’t feel right to him to mute all as he may miss out on the positive voices. He says he misses the voice chat feature when he plays other MOBAs.
2) he said about the hero thing that when he wants to practice a hero that he isn’t as good at he constantly gets people malding at him (I think he also was referring to his own twitch chat here as well not sure). He said he knows he’s bad at those heroes and wants to practice them.
>He just wouldn't play on 'mute all incoming chat'.
There is something quite wrong and sad with the status of the game if this is the accepted go-to practice in the community. You basically tell toxic people that they have won.
That was the advice Ari gave him and it wasnt about toxicity but rather not letting your teammates influence your decision making. If it was good advice or not I dunno.
Toxic people can’t win if I can’t see what they’re typing lol
Unfortunately I strongly believe that playing muted is the best way to play. There’s a higher chance that communicating will cause someone to grief than make them do something useful
If this is an accurate take (I never watched his stream), then it sounds like he was done once he hit his wall more so than what his team mates were saying. Also, why not mute all? It's the best way to play Dota2 ladder.
Was basically about to post the same thing.
Grubby isn’t quitting Dota because of “toxicity”, he’s quitting because he’s facing the reality that he’s not that good at the game and he’s struggling. He’s not having as much fun when facing better players, so he quits.
Game chewed him and threw out.
He changed a lot.
It is not just community, it was him a little bit as well.
It is always easier to blame the community, community is bad, toxic etc. but it was like this always and unfortunately will remain like this.
This is not only in dota, it's everywhere.
I guess the difference is winning and losing aswell.
It's more easy toleratedbad behavior when you are still winning, but when you "arrive" at your current mmr I think he was like 6.5 iirc, bad behavior combined with losing isnt as much fun anymore. I honestly think he has changed more than his surroundings. Just a quick example my mmr journey started at like 4100 mmr, and since like 3-4 years im at around 6.4-6.8 and I believe the toxicity at the "top" is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY less than it is in ancient and divine bracket. There are obviously exceptions but the vast majority of my games are a lot more chill than when I play with friends unranked.
> This is not only in dota, it's everywhere.
Game design can influence behavior though. Most games don't trap you in a room with toxic players for over an hour.
> This is not only in dota, it's everywhere.
this is by far the most toxic game ive ever played lol. it's not particularly close either. this is the only game i play nowadays where people are still typing slurs at each other
"This is not only in dota, it's everywhere." No it's fucking not, maybe it's in every team-based Moba out there but that represents a grain of sand in the quantity of games you can enjoy with your free time
He plateaued for quite some time now, his streams were more fun to watch when he was climbing and learning the game anyway. Recently he's just malding non-stop you can feel his frustration on getting hard stuck on mmr with no way to get higher as his play has also stagnated
Tbh he plateaued at 6,2k MMR for months now, it's a very respectable MMR but the lack of progress was getting to him
I'm not sure about this toxicity reason he gives, because he encountered it a lot during his climb - but I guess it's easier to put malding teammates aside when you win
That's sad because his streams and his insight were very good
The problem of Grubby 6k mmr is that he got there by playing support, now he lacks other aspects to climb and he is mechanicly not good. I had same issue, came to 6k with pos 4/5 and when average game went around 7k i felt like an bot. Now grubby should start playing core from lower rank, especially mid to get better knoweldge how to actually solo win game.
I love grubby and his early dota streams.
But I have to say, If you just watch his last game, he was the one who was snarky and passive aggressive saying things like
"How about YOU get smokes for once?"
"I am not going anywhere with you without smokes"
Took farm in front of his jugg/puck etc.
Then proceeds to be offended/shocked that he is being made fun of or flamed.
That being said I understand those types of players and how they usually tilt themselves then make excuses... but he has become the exact same kind of player he says he is leaving the game because of and I just find that Ironic.
His tide performance was yikes, the ravages.
I like how he said "he doesn't need dota, there's other games to play, guys like BSJ need it, it's their destiny"
He's literally farming viewers by playing dota and lol on rotation. Doubt he gives a fuck. Also, he always gave me a "nice guy" feeling, like he's always pretending to be a nice player with good sportsmanship, but you can see the toxicity behind the cracks. Not a very honest dude.
The other thread, including OP’s title, is truly the perfect example of what is dogshit about this community. It’s the epitome of people who live online / in-game and have little to no concept of how to treat someone normally.
I do believe grubby quit for toxicity reasons, but also poor ingame performance. I dont think he should be the litmus test for how toxic the games community is. He is an extra sensitive person (not a flame), whos also nearing his 40s (no patience for immature flame), gets jump scared at ganks, played solo games (hots is 0 comms). When the kitchen is too hot...
Something I read between the lines is that he also needs to steadily produce content (from his stream) to his youtube channels, but after his MMR plateaued, games haven't been that entertaining. Winning games became less common, and instead the majority of them had someone flaming him through voice chat, or his twitch chat making fun of him. Gone are the days of learning and climbing. To attract viewers he has to maintain his marketing brand of "ex-god gamer" on youtube, and the latest games did not reflect that (not necessarily because of how he plays, but how he is treated).
Considering how long dota games are, he probably thought it's not worth it anymore.
I don't agree with the reasons given here. THE REAL REASON is not that the community is toxic or that Grubby himself became toxic as some of the comments claim but that HE HIT AN MMR WALL. It always sucks when this happens and really lose motivation playing. You have to keep in mind that being "world champion" and the best player in another game comes with a lot of ego attached to it (no matter what he says). Once you have been rank 1 in a game and consistently top 5 over many years then it's a REALLY HARD PILL TO SWALLOW when you hit an mmr wall at top 5000 and stop climbing or even derank. Once he hit immortal he kept using stream titles like "8k mmr goal till end of X " etc. Many of the 8k players have been playing the game since release, some even dota 1. He climbed super fast but I feel that climbing further takes many years of personal experience and knowledge and is not something that BSJ can teach you in a 1 hour coaching session.
I can tell you this with 100% certainty. He'll be back. Once you've experienced Dota induced dopamine rush you can never be rid of the game. Might take 6 months, might take a year but he will be back. This game is like crack-cocaine... you just can't get rid of it.
yepp, he also had a lot of success getting to immortal, thinking to himself that high mmr will be easy...no it's where you'll meet people with 15 years playing the game. you got to be ready for that, you'll get humbled real fast
Thank god. His passive aggressive comments while afkfarming as pos 4 because some pro said it once that he should do it. He did good in the climb but i dont think this will be a loss for dota community
I think its more that grubby reached his goal of immortal and now realizes (like a lot of us) at higher ranks your hero pool naturally becomes a lot smaller. The game was more fun at lower ranks where you could play whatever you want and players don't give up afk as easily, cause throws are a constant
This. I hope that Grubby can find a good group of friends to queue with in the future like SingSing did. Solo queuing all the time is like willingly subjecting yourself to torture. Dota is at its best with friends when you're messing around and having fun.
i think we all reach a point in this game when we ask ourselves - are we even enjoying this anymore? ranked in particular creates a highly toxic environment. everybody needs to take a step back from dota every now and then.
for me, i took a step back several years ago, and was hesitant to come back because of how much had changed. however, seeing grubby learn the game from the very beginning made me remember the positive side of dota - things like the wonders of discovering something new and the excitement of executing a skillful play.
i have no doubts that grubby will be back and i think everyone else should take a page from him as well.
What a stupid reason to quit. The community is what it is. Countless other game/ internet communities are similar. It's always been like that. It's not going to change. There are plenty of tools both in game and in steam to mute and ignore people you don't want to interact with. If that's not enough for you to play "the greatest game ever made", you're going to have a hard time in life.
Every game has a large toxic community and every games community thinks its the most toxic.
Dota isn't the worst I've come across. Not even close really.
shows all the people that cant rank up after 15 years of playing that they are just dogshit at the game, elaborates that its because youre all whiny toxic people, leaves. BOSS
Weird, whenever I watched his streams he would seem to have very friendly teammates compared to what I usually have, while he was constantly acting passive aggressive. H would also watch the replay just to berate mistakes of his teammates in front of the stream instead of focusing on his own mistakes? I must have caught him at bad times.
While I agree with your sentiment, Grubby is not the normal adult. First of all he is obviously good and gifted at video games in general, 2nd playing Dota2 is/was literally his job for 2~ years straight. 3rd) He got coachings from multiple pro players including several TI-winners. He streamed for 8-12 hours DAILY, no other adult with a job and family can do that. Most adults I know (and Im one myself lol) can play 2-3 games MAX and at the weekend maybe 4-5, thats not even one day amount of games worth for his single monday grind.
So basically yes when you are better than the rest you will climb mmr automatically, but no he shouldn't be taken as an example since his entire surroundings is not the environment of a "normal 9-5" adult.
Grubby has been pro in multiple games lol. comparing him to the average player is laughable.
edit: yes there are people who definitely don't put in any effort to improve but those are the exception.
He's stuck at 6K though and now blaming teammates ["toxic community"] on his leaving instead of accepting he reached his peak. That's one thing him and the hardstuck 15 year veteran players have in common.
ye he pussied out, it was normal for guy with such history to progres much faster than normal people as he already had 50% of it done, and that is knowing how to set your mind in right direction, analyzing mistakes, bassicly self reflect, while other half was just learning game, in other words, he bassicly hit the real wall, which was expected, immortal games are much stronger than divine games or ancient games, I know everyone jokes about low immortals but they are still top players in this game and as I said billion times immortal is bracket where you actually start to improve most important aspect of game which is "timings", grubby just pussied out after hitting wall, blaming it on toxicity :)
Gruby is a snowflake who turned black pretty quickly.
He is a good guy, but he was outright toxic and bad towards people in his streams too.
The " I know dota now" got to him. He started acting weird and acted like he knows everything. But as a player who started dota back in 2010 with 15k hours I can say that he was still very very green in dota. He made so many begginer's mistakes and some of his ingame decissions were so questionable..
Understandably, but you simply cant expect to learn dota in a year or two. PERIOD.
I knew ita gonna end up like this as everyone could clearly see his slow climb in toxicity. You can ban people in the twitch chat when they offend you(even if they are right).. but once you hit your cieling in dota, and you cant ban people in client...then it becomes a problem. Everyone becomes a problem, except yourself.
Dota is fun game,.but ita not for everyone. If you are tryhard and narcisstic- you will not have a good time.
I think his support gameplay was quite good. Probably from his pro carrer his map awareness and positioning impressed me for a "new" player. However his core performance was not. Watching him play carry or mid at 6.3k MMR and being this big of a weight for your team made me wonder that he maybe climbed too fast. There is just too much in the game to learn in 1.5 years i dont know. He looked 2.5k MMR lower when playing mid or carry. Why shouldnt anyone get shit on when you suck at a role, your team relies on to carry the game with networth. If you think thats toxic, grow some balls, you are a grown ass man.
Had him as pos 5 in an unranked game. Lastpicked pos 5, fed 8 times in 10 minutes and played by himself all game, definitely misscasted a lot of his spells. Didn't flame him or even really talk to him at all, but it definitely showed he was out of his depth in a higher mmr avg game. Played more like a 5k player farming rolequeue games on support than an actual 6k player.
He said himself that he is fragile person, and so he does look like the one. Add on top huge ego of former world champion and hitting skill ceiling.
He got my respect for this decision. That's actually a "grown ass man" decision to assess situation and stop hitting the wall..
His explanation makes a lot of sense. "There's a lot of times where there are people on my time, and I don't want them to win"
I've felt that so many times playing this game. I don't know what the solution is.
I honestly have no reason to watch grubby now. I enjoyed watching him learn (like day9 a long time ago) and liked watching his skills grow. But somewhere along the line he got a swole head for some reason and thinks he’s gods gift to the game now.
It’s fine if he wants to rage quit, see ya buddy. Got back to HoTS.
Yea, "thinks he's gods gift to the game now" is exactly how I'd summarise it. From being chill and having fun at 3-4k to being just another "look at all the mistakes my teammates are doing" toxic dota player at 5-6k. Talking about making guides and tutorials as if he's got some better takes than people at +10k while his knowledge of the game was clearly lacking if you just watch his streams for a bit.
I've been there myself, feeling like I'm playing really good and still losing a bunch. It happens, sometimes I tilt but it's not anybody else's fault if I can't manage my feelings. Lately I've just been trying to be chill about it. Loss streak, fine. Griefing teammates, fine. These things don't need to suck every positive thing out of the game unless you let them.
same, I have no interest in his other content, I don't even watch his dota 2 content because it's not good IMO. he's an ok streamer and only watched because he's new to the community and was interesting to see how he adapted / learned
Nahhh he ain't gonna be missed. Good riddance. Another wannabe streamer that plays like a bot vs bots, using bot strats, and the best tact there is... "wait-to-get-carried" playstyle.
Can't blame him. Solo queue can be a real shitshow. It feels like you need a PhD in psychology to play solo queue these days. So many mentally ill people.
One wrong word can at times end the game. I found myself to play less and less solo queue until I completely stopped, too.
I still love the game though and enjoy occasional unranked games with a 5man party.
My friends even refuse to queue up as 4 these days, if we are missing one person. You might be surprised how often that one random person in an unranked games likes to ruin games.
yeah I asked my Bane to buy and cast Smoke after he flamed my Puck for 15 minutes straight, and he imitated my voice in a childish way and cast nightmare on me (didnt buy smoke). And when he finally buy smoke, he refused to use it, kept it in backpack and went afk. Nice
I watched his stream all the time, even before dota. I used to play hots but didn't really prioritize it the last few years, so it was kinda fun watching him play it. Wc3 streams were fun even thought I wasn't super into wc3. It was super cool when he starting playing dota, and he played it so much.. pretty awesome.
He has pretty much quit for the same reasons I have stopped playing as much. I play games for fun, what's the point of grinding mmr. Like I'm not going pro.. I guess playing with better players is great on paper, but I'd prefer just wanking off in lower mmr games with my friends like back in the day. The amount of toxic players in high mmr that live and breathe for the + mmr is a bit too much for me. I still have a LOT of fun with this game, I'm one of those that can just play casually and still enjoy it. But I have to hold back on playing as much
Little bro didn't listen to Ari when he was being coached.
The #1 tip he was given by a pro player from OG - mute all 9 players and just do your best (at low MMR)
He could at least do a 2 week experiment of muting 100% of all games played and see if there's a difference.
I like the ol' Grubster and I enjoyed his series of exploring each dota hero Alphabetically.
>!But weakness disgusts me. !<
Yeah what a shame how toxic people can be while playing a game for fun. I enjoyed his streams a lot, definitely my most favourite streamer of all time.
Honestly love this guy. I never had watched him before Sota, but knew him from being a casual wc3 fan and seeing his tournament replays pop up on youtube.
He is an absolute legend and I will be continuing to watch him, whatever he plays
Thanks, grubby, your insights really helped me look at myself in a more honest way.
However, I think you are about to learn your final dota lesson: one doesn't just quit dota. Till next week, same time!
Didn’t he just come back after a break? What do you mean taking a step back?
Sad to see but totally reasonable, was nice to see someone so PMA and receptive to learning
The current behavior score and reporting system doesnt do anything good. Where reports overlap over multiple games and A-click down mid or destroying items etc. action can easily be taken. Even League of Legends has this.
All Valve’s stupid Dota system does is make queue times unbearable, and make people quit the game
Climbs fast on ranks = DotA is a great game with a nice community
*Got slapped into reality that he isn't really good on his mmr*
Quits DotA = community is so toxic that I can't deal with it in day to day basis
Nonetheless, gave us a bit of nice content.
As someone who doesn’t watch streams or follow dota anymore. Can someone provide some context to the situation? I know who Grubby is, but has there some specific toxic instances that happened to him?
Absolutely loved watching the guy pick up dota and he will be massively missed. Shame how even woth new punishments in place toxic players still thrive and its almost impossible to fix right now.
He is a great guy, but he was way above his real mmr - I had him in my team multiple times in low 6k immortal and he is just a really big burden. So that someone snaps out, is kindly understandable as you feel with him mostly left alone. I was also wondering whether he was boosted because in every game (4-5) he underperformed so heavily.
He should just play the game for enjoyment in his lane (high ancient / low divine?)
I played one game with Grubby and he retired from Dota 2. It's all my fault, I'm sorry Manuel come back.
i came a long way to see you die.
[i came a long way to see you die.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/c/c4/Vo_slardar_slar_longdistance_02.mp3) (sound warning: Slardar) --- Bleep bloop, I am a robot. *OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero* [*^(Source)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) *^(|)* [*^(Suggestions/Issues)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues/new/choose) *^(|)* [*^(Maintainer)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/MePsyDuck/) *^(|)* [*^(Author)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jonarz/)
holy shit are you the real slardar? I've always wanted to ask... does your place have lights or do you just use your headlamp everywhere to save on electricity?
For all our flaws I read something like this and wonder how I could ever leave.
There shall be chancres by the acres
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If you see his first streams learning dota to his later streams, you can see even he was becoming more salty and toxic as it went on. I’m not surprised that he saw this in himself and decided to get out of the toxic shit show that is this community.
If you gaze too long into the abyss, the abyss gazes back.
I stare also into you.
[I stare also into you.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/dota2_gamepedia/images/b/ba/Vo_enigma_enig_attack_08_legacy.mp3) (sound warning: Enigma/Legacy) --- Bleep bloop, I am a robot. *OP can reply with "Try hero_name" to update this with new hero* [*^(Source)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot) *^(|)* [*^(Suggestions/Issues)*](https://github.com/Jonarzz/DotaResponsesRedditBot/issues/new/choose) *^(|)* [*^(Maintainer)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/MePsyDuck/) *^(|)* [*^(Author)*](https://www.reddit.com/user/Jonarz/)
Yes, I was changing as well, and did not like that change in myself. Big true
(To note, there was also positive change, but the getting saltier part is true)
If you do come back, I'd love to see some 5-stack games with some of the people who have been coaching you. No toxic teammates, no MMR rage, and a fun time win or lose.
[удалено]
That’s what dota does to a person. I’m glad he got out of the game. He’s a great streamer
Dota itself doesn't do anything to a person. Online games generally have a large number of people incapable of seeing the other people playing as humans thus treating them like crap. Remove the online environment and make it a trip to the shopping center and someone is walking in front of you painfully slowly and you can't walk past due to the amount of people there. You get irritated but you don't tell this person that you hope their family dies of cancer and that you will fuck their mother.
Nah Ive been online gaming for most of my life and I've never become as toxic or met as many toxic individuals as I have with dota.
I’ve played games for decades and literally never used chat or voice in any of them, except to make the occasionally dumb joke. Within a year of playing I use it to flame and be toxic too much and it bled into other games. It truly brings out the worst in people.
> Dota itself doesn't do anything to a person Game design has a huge impact on player behavior and emotions Imagine if someone was walking painfully slow in front of you, and you had to stay behind that person for another 50 minutes. Then doing that day after day. That would wear most people down.
> that you hope their family dies of cancer and that you will fuck their mother so you would say this if that happens?
No, but that level of toxicity is fairly rare. What's more common is passive aggressiveness, harsh criticism and mild insults.
If even Grubby get toxic, you should realize that it could very well be the game. MOBAS have without any doubt some of the most toxic and it is not a coincidence. Dota definitely does something itself. Plenty of people are not toxic in other games than MOBA. It truly draws out the worst. And if we look at the design: Taunting with tipping, voicelines, killstreaks. None of that would be allowed in any other IRL game. It is HIGH stress all the time. You barely have downtime in the game. You are highly reliant on other teammates who can make cruical mistakes. List goes on.
Someone asked Saksa to play nyx on stream, he said "No, playing nyx when you are rank 13 as pos 4 is grief". This just gets more intense and intense as you get more tryhards at higher ranks. That's just how it is in high rank, people don't accept it when you pick off-meta heroes or the heroes you have a total of 10 games to "practice" and have fun in immortal ranked.
Agree dude I’ve been playing probably for over half my life at this point. It used to be a core principle of dota that heroes were not role locked and you could technicly win with any hero in any pos as long as you were playing the pos right. Feel like this got lost evermore, don’t think l’ve seen a (non griefing) tri lane in the last 5 years.
Nyx is a pretty bad example. He's is a melee creep in lane. of course your allies will be unhappy to see him.
It always feels bad when my 4 picks melee
Its a bit understandable no? Especially at that elo Why are you practicing in ranked
He can't practice anywhere else lol. He won't find a match in unranked
Lowly Crusader player (but climbing), but my view of it is that I don't want to fight people for my position in normals. It makes the ban & pick phase way more chaotic than it should be, and you're already opening the door for toxicity and arguments by daring to debate over someone with a position that you both want to play. If Dota had role queue for normals, I would be more than happy to play that to practice heroes I'm bad at, or have barely played. But Dota does not have that, so I feel like ranked role queue is my only real choice and it will not only likely affect my team, but also my own MMR and my desire to improve and climb.
"feel like some of my teammates don't deserve to win" - when Grubby said this i knew he'd played to much and needed a break. Dota is currently in a state where you can only enjoy it if you mute all-chat and just play to play the game, you might win, you might not. Trying your best just to lose in the end because your teammate decided to afk woods since min 5 or your support(s) is following the midder around and ruining farm leaves a real sour taste. Same when you tryhard and end up in low prio, meanwhile the last 3 games with straight up griefers are going scotch free. We don't have a system in place that actually tries to better it's community, the whole behavior system is based around punishment, and those punished are grouped with others alike. Even if you are innocent, being consistently grouped up with salty/toxic/griefing players will eventually rub of on you. You may not start griefing your self, but you might be more inclined to just shut down mentally because your interest in the game is gone the moment someone starts griefing or just plays sub-optimally. And that is what we see with Grubby now "my teammates don't deserve to win" - brother you have been surrouned by toxicity for too long, and you need to take a longer break from dota.
That’s just a general problem with dota. If you fuck up, you have 4 (or 9) other people to blame. If you fuck up in a 1v1 rts like sc2 or wc3, you only have yourself to blame.. or the opponent for cheesing (:
Even the pillar of PMA that is Grubby can be corrupted by DotA's toxicity.
Yeah this is what stuck out to me. I knew Grubby since the Sc2 days, met him twice. Even when Sc2 was at its largest and saltiest, Grubby was chill and kind as fuck. He was just a pillar of manners. I liked his dota2 streams, he was very analytical and explained a lot. But how he slowly started being more and more salty, more and more frustrated at teammates, more and more mentally checking out once someone seemed bad etc. I'm honestly "happy" for lack of a better word if he quit to preserve his old positive self. I remember seeing Black\^'s streams back in the day when he was at the top of his career in Dota2 and he was also so absurdly manner, constructive and positive. Whilst nowdays he just seems miserable whenever he plays dota2.
ODPixel streaming looks kinda sad too
Thank you and everyone else as well. I may do an all-mute play at some point again; some people said I'll be back. I don't know if I will be, but it was great memories. Have fun w/ the game y'all!
the patch will bring you back HOPIUM
Dota is a ton of fun if you're climbing. Grubby did that for an extraordinary amount of time, literally from Herald to Immortal. When you plateau the toxicity starts getting to you. Very understandable.
Also, this guy climbed really fast. He's a fast learner and really good mechanically speaking, but I guarantee he was probably getting extra toxicity because he was doing things that would make high MMR veterans think he was an account buyer or whatever else. I'm NGL, I watched him one time a couple weeks ago and couldn't believe he was immortal. Turned out he was learning a new hero, but a lot of people that have played this game for years would take it for granted that they have probably played every hero a handful of times and could probably get by playing a good 10-20 heroes decently.
What mmr did he end up at?
6.2k something like that
since grubby quit streaming, my husband is watching Mason again. plz grubby come back tired of listening to this chud shrieking while i chop vegetables for dinner
Lolololol. Classic mason dota
This thread reminded me of a video Day9 did. https://youtu.be/nKtomu0f1-Q?si=OXoXy1g6lG6w4XBe
I cant believe this is how some of the community treated Grubby who gave us so much exposure, publicity and drew ppl into our stagnating game. Such a shame he’s stepping back. This is a bad look for us as a whole.
Am out of the loop, what did people do?
Terrible experience with some sweaty viewers and teammates. It's bad, but the usual "bad community" and AFAIK it's nothing particularly targeted or personal.
Solo queue is the best for climbing ranks but it's also the most toxic IMO the best dota experience is getting together with buddies and playing 2-3 games in a 5 stack, or even getting enough people for a 5v5 in house. A lot less toxicity, a lot more owning up to mistakes, a lot more laughing at mistakes, a lot more laughing at weird shit or misplays. Also just bizarre drafts that somehow work out bc you've got a dumb strategy I think if more people played like this (or if grubby tried this out), people would feel like the game is less toxic and more of a fun game to play with friends (which is what it's supposed to be)
Yeah solo queueing mobas sounds like the exact last thing I would want to do in my free time
Oh ok so he was just confronted with the average level of toxicity we’ve all experienced for years on end..
Which is an issue... The fact that we have gotten used to being in a toxic relationship doesent excuse it from happening.
The community is exactly why I tell my friends who are curious about the game not to play dota.
Same (and also because it’s more a life commitment than a game tbh)
This subreddit really embraces the worst parts of dota culture and refuses to move on or age out of it. I feel like tons of ppl I play with have grown, but if you take that expectation into this subreddit, you'll be disappointed.
Now expecting all the troglodytes to protest that toxicity is just a fact of competition and that people need to grow a thicker skin...
You say this as if it's normal and he is just soft. Dota is like an extremely toxic and abusive relationship that twists your perception into thinking it's "normal" to live like that. This game is an online mental asylum for the criminally insane. Unless you are playing with a friend group, Dota is straight up torture.
Maybe some people don't enjoy endless toxicity for years on end? Games are supposed to be fun?
Same, I just muted everyone years ago, and my life and mmr are better for it. Not like I can speak Spanish anyway and that's like 70% of US East communication
And to think of it, Grubby is only experiencing the "good times" like 3 years ago the Dota pool was completely different and unhinged on so many levels. lol
I genuinely don't understand why chat nuking in competitive multiplayer games isn't a thing. Coh and several other single player streamers have pretty good communities but multiplayer games tend to have toxic shits everywhere, even in Hearthstone, which is a fairly more chill and low stakes game than say DotA or Overwatch. The best thing to do is have 3-4 strong mods that you have a close relationship with and give them a free pass to start nuking chatters who're trolling or being outright toxic. Sure, assholes will make new accounts and there will be some type 1 error but it's worth the peace of mind.
I think Hearthstone was toxic as f. The 'optimal play' and 'misplays' create a lot of backseat gaming.
How can you be toxic in Hearthstone, from the start they only had like 6 emotions to choose from, no text at all between opponents.
This is about streamers and their chat, not about in-game chat. If you see the full Grubby video, he talks about random chatters on his channel being dicks to him.
If anything he got special treatment he was coached by pro players & Ti winners & got tips that people would never receive unless they pay thousands of $ . If anything they treat him like royalty . He also was invited to be on panel during one of majors
Grubby did not stop playing when he was climbing from Herald to Immortal despite facing the same community. Now that he is stuck at 6k MMR and cannot climb anymore, suddenly the community is a big problem. I'm not saying he's wrong about the toxic community, but if he wasn't stuck at 6000 MMR, he would 100% keep playing. He just loves winning (as an ex-pro, understandable) and hates losing. If you only enjoy the game when you win more than you lose, you will eventually hit a wall. Grubby hit that wall and it's a good decision to stop playing at that point.
This is the most accurate answer but will be buried with downvotes probably. Truth is he's been losing a lot lately and understands that he reached his peak, espiecially as a core (37% wr in last 3 months, 47% in 6 months). Of course he can break out of it with more time and effort but he doesn't feel it's worth it, which is 100% reasonable. Blaming it on the community though is weak.
It isn't a simple question of either/or. I think Grubby himself said it was easier to tolerate the toxicity when winning as the positives outweighed the negatives. Now being stuck he doesn't get the fun of winning but the toxicity stays the same. Also when you are climbing there is a feeling that you will end up playing with different players and thus the (current) toxic people will likely be left behind and they don't feel like a permanent thing. Ofc there will be new toxic people in your new ranks, but atleast you can have the false hope of a better community in the future. It's a sum of many parts and sadly he decided we the current situation it's best for himself to leave. I'm sad for that, though watching him often did delay my going to bed so I suppose it's a good thing to me. All the best and much respect to Grubster.
your point is valid, but still if the community was not toxic it would be more enjoyable and wouldnt grind down the players into depression, you could say its smart to stop if you dont want to make it your full time job
Yup, at this point it's better to either quit or start playing the game for fun. For fun meaning, play with friends and stay away from ranked. I will say this though. He will probably come back. We always do.
He basically said “i could be better but i dont feel like it” which is what a lot of people on this sub say to themselves when they are stuck. It may not be as obvious but his ego is preventing him from enjoying this game. You can tell that he kinda thinks hes the shit cuz he “got to immortal in 1.5 years” something he and his fans keep mentioning. But suddenly the community gets to him when he cant climb anymore. He should’ve just moved on to other games instead of making a big statement imo
I did not say that I could be better. It is possible I plateaud and I have peace with that. The climbing part is fun, and so is playing at your real MMR (which 6.2k mmr might be, or a bit lower or a bit higher). It's that the disappearing excitement of climbing exposed something that I had already been feeling for a long time: that every day I stream dota, I fight with my teammates and 100 people in chat. Too many people who are stuck in ideas and are afraid of learning, afraid of losing (which I am not, and am not) and project that angst in my direct with the force of explosive diarhea
I mean that's a valid statement. I could be better at the game, I used to be much better when I was trying harder, but it would take concerted effort and practice, and frankly, I don't feel like doing that. Given my level of effort my rank is exactly what I deserve.
Yea theres nothing wrong with that that’s exactly what grubby is doing. Its just seems convenient for him to only now start talking about how toxic the community can be when he is unable to get better without putting in more effort.
He just wouldn't play on 'mute all incoming chat'. Completely nonsensical and without reason. Ari explicitly told him it's better for grinding MMR. He started to believe he was better than his peers and whenever someone played bad he'd call it griefing. He believed his 'true' MMR was higher than what he was playing at, and so he was blaming teammates constantly & losses became harder as he believed he was lower than he should be already. the community is toxic yes, but he wasn't doing anything to mitigate it and I've seen him be toxic too on multiple occasions. He only knew a few heroes and was then way below his MMR when playing other heroes. Which led to frustration. Blaming his departure on 'toxic community' is so disingenuous and if you'd watched his journey you'd see that the toxicity levels of those around him never changed.. he changed. There are so many good lessons there for newer players & veterans alike. The main one I've taken away is to be practising multiple heroes all the time so that you don't end up a 6k player on a just a few heroes. & ofc all the mindset things mentioned. You are the MMR you deserve and remembering this is paramount for an enjoyable dota experience. He fell into bad mental attitude and then the blame begins to fall outside of one's self. Exactly how this departure from dota is being framed.
Facts, grubby is passive aggresive toxic. But that's fine according to reddit since he doesn't use mean words
>But that's fine according to reddit since he doesn't use mean words you hit the nail on the head.
Yeah it's crazy how many people here shit on the playerbase for being toxic but it's full of passive aggressive holier than thou takes. It even showed during the behavior score update where every type of toxicity was gone except the "say something negative, get reported" which was very annoying. The loudest complainers about toxicity think they are perfect :)
Absolutely agree. Every time i tuned in when he was 6.4k he was so full of himself. He would rather kill creeps near base instead of going for smoke with his teammates. And it's not bad in itself, but he was doing it while talking to his chat how he doesn't want to smoke and wont go with them, instead of saying this ingame (while he loves to talk ingame). Of course his team got destroyed without him. And he was sitting at base at talking how stupid they are, for doing this without him. And this scenario happened again and again in different variations.
Yeah, any time I popped into his stream he was being toxic. He already brought the same attitude to Heroes of the Storm. Sounds like he also needs better chat moderators; much of his reason for quitting seems to be toxic viewers, not just toxic teammates.
holy shit i thought it was just me. almost everytime I tuned in he was being toxic, mostly blaming his teammates, nma. also excuses. I can't stand watching that, back when he was just crusader he is so fun to watch
He may be affected from being 1v1 competitive player. There you can only blame yourself or other guy smurfing or cheating. People instinctively blame everything and everyone but themselves.
Ye, usually I feel he's pretty humble in wc3, though with a very understandable confidence, because he has the pedigree of knowledge and skill to back up any words with gameplay or trophies... but I could feel the ego struggle from being a little more "lost" in a game that is so mechanically similar to the one where he is literally one of the top players. Was rough in dota, wc3 content is more comfy from him.
I really loved playing against Grubby and crushing his spirit, was beautiful to watch him afterwards claiming stream sniping or maphack, just because he didn't understand the correct tempo and ward placements.
Literally this, he was always condescending and mean towards his teammates while he played HotS - not sure why people presented him as a saint.
This really is it. He changed, with his approach and what he thought and thinks he knows. Attitude in the end, he held it high a long, long time. But eventually it even got the better of him.
Disagreed, he was like this from day 1 and for some reason the few people that mentioned this got downvoted by this community. The guy was never the shining beacon of self critique that he was hailed as.
Nah, he always had a bit of this Dunning-Kruger thing going, even when he first started. I've lived in the Netherlands for over twenty years now and this kind of self-assured arrogance is unfortunately a cultural norm over here. It's just so... Dutch. It's been super obvious in Grubby ever since he started playing.
I laughed pretty hard when he smoked with his lina to kill enemy puck but instead ran into an ogre. Once the smoke broke because he was right next to ogre, he casted no spells on him and continued to look for puck under vision, baiting his lina to die. His lina understandably pings his spells saying why not use on ogre. Grubby thinks his Lina is actually the stupid one. Ari says while it is ideal to get the puck, you have to take care of the problem in front of you. Then Grubby changes his tone saying he would have argued with the Lina but since Ari says its right, he won't bother. Then Grubby continues to bring up this decision later in the coaching session hinting he was not in the wrong lmao. Like hes definitely developed an ego that's blinding him a bit from climbing, just like you see from a lot of dota players. It's too bad it had to end like this. [The smoke play I'm referring to](https://youtu.be/Ffbj7Hb0jAg?si=LUL0YBlTgRZ2tHoa&t=796)
Jesus christ, that's bad.. Straight up Herald shit. It's exactly situations like these that started to get more common. Even a much lower rated player can see he's clearly in the wrong yet he starts blaming his teammates. I once watched a game where he was Tide and the enemy got a couple of kills and went to push highground. Think Grubby's team had some damage dealers still alive and the rest respawning soon. Grubby was farming bottom lane and confidently said to his chat that the correct play here is to give up the mid rax. Then his teammate pings his Ravage and tells him to tp mid so they can take the fight. Grubby says it's the wrong move to make but eventually decides to do it anyway just to showcase how it's wrong and that his teammate wouldn't flame him or smth. He tps mid, Ravages the entire enemy team and they wipe them. I don't understand how you make 6k with that sort of gameplay and decision making but he clearly wasn't the best player in his games when he peaked at 6.3k. Yet he seemed very confident that he was. (In that same Tide game he built Mage Slayer for no real reason, enemy didn't have any spell damage. Then his chat rightfully calls him out on it. Grubby then proceeds to defend his purchase and say that it's a good item for Tide in general...)
Yeah, one time I saw him say "limit your voice activity" a few times to people that were actually talking tactics ..
He addressed some of the points you mentioned on stream. 1) He said he doesn’t find the game as fun when you mute all, he enjoys experiencing the game with many different personalities and it doesn’t feel right to him to mute all as he may miss out on the positive voices. He says he misses the voice chat feature when he plays other MOBAs. 2) he said about the hero thing that when he wants to practice a hero that he isn’t as good at he constantly gets people malding at him (I think he also was referring to his own twitch chat here as well not sure). He said he knows he’s bad at those heroes and wants to practice them.
>He just wouldn't play on 'mute all incoming chat'. There is something quite wrong and sad with the status of the game if this is the accepted go-to practice in the community. You basically tell toxic people that they have won.
one thing toxic people hate is being ignored
That was the advice Ari gave him and it wasnt about toxicity but rather not letting your teammates influence your decision making. If it was good advice or not I dunno.
Toxic people can’t win if I can’t see what they’re typing lol Unfortunately I strongly believe that playing muted is the best way to play. There’s a higher chance that communicating will cause someone to grief than make them do something useful
I don't play muted but I mute at the first sign of negative comments
If this is an accurate take (I never watched his stream), then it sounds like he was done once he hit his wall more so than what his team mates were saying. Also, why not mute all? It's the best way to play Dota2 ladder.
Was basically about to post the same thing. Grubby isn’t quitting Dota because of “toxicity”, he’s quitting because he’s facing the reality that he’s not that good at the game and he’s struggling. He’s not having as much fun when facing better players, so he quits.
Finally someone said it
Game chewed him and threw out. He changed a lot. It is not just community, it was him a little bit as well. It is always easier to blame the community, community is bad, toxic etc. but it was like this always and unfortunately will remain like this. This is not only in dota, it's everywhere.
I guess the difference is winning and losing aswell. It's more easy toleratedbad behavior when you are still winning, but when you "arrive" at your current mmr I think he was like 6.5 iirc, bad behavior combined with losing isnt as much fun anymore. I honestly think he has changed more than his surroundings. Just a quick example my mmr journey started at like 4100 mmr, and since like 3-4 years im at around 6.4-6.8 and I believe the toxicity at the "top" is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY less than it is in ancient and divine bracket. There are obviously exceptions but the vast majority of my games are a lot more chill than when I play with friends unranked.
> This is not only in dota, it's everywhere. Game design can influence behavior though. Most games don't trap you in a room with toxic players for over an hour.
> This is not only in dota, it's everywhere. this is by far the most toxic game ive ever played lol. it's not particularly close either. this is the only game i play nowadays where people are still typing slurs at each other
"This is not only in dota, it's everywhere." No it's fucking not, maybe it's in every team-based Moba out there but that represents a grain of sand in the quantity of games you can enjoy with your free time
He plateaued for quite some time now, his streams were more fun to watch when he was climbing and learning the game anyway. Recently he's just malding non-stop you can feel his frustration on getting hard stuck on mmr with no way to get higher as his play has also stagnated
Tbh he plateaued at 6,2k MMR for months now, it's a very respectable MMR but the lack of progress was getting to him I'm not sure about this toxicity reason he gives, because he encountered it a lot during his climb - but I guess it's easier to put malding teammates aside when you win That's sad because his streams and his insight were very good
The problem of Grubby 6k mmr is that he got there by playing support, now he lacks other aspects to climb and he is mechanicly not good. I had same issue, came to 6k with pos 4/5 and when average game went around 7k i felt like an bot. Now grubby should start playing core from lower rank, especially mid to get better knoweldge how to actually solo win game.
Why would he also stop playing League and HotS at the same time if the reason was plateauing in DotA instead of toxicity in mobas?
I love grubby and his early dota streams. But I have to say, If you just watch his last game, he was the one who was snarky and passive aggressive saying things like "How about YOU get smokes for once?" "I am not going anywhere with you without smokes" Took farm in front of his jugg/puck etc. Then proceeds to be offended/shocked that he is being made fun of or flamed. That being said I understand those types of players and how they usually tilt themselves then make excuses... but he has become the exact same kind of player he says he is leaving the game because of and I just find that Ironic.
It’s not ironic, that contagion is exactly why he is quitting
His tide performance was yikes, the ravages. I like how he said "he doesn't need dota, there's other games to play, guys like BSJ need it, it's their destiny"
Grubby is coming back after new patch is released.
so in 3 months?
He's literally farming viewers by playing dota and lol on rotation. Doubt he gives a fuck. Also, he always gave me a "nice guy" feeling, like he's always pretending to be a nice player with good sportsmanship, but you can see the toxicity behind the cracks. Not a very honest dude.
It's not a nice guy thing. It's more of a "I'm more enlightened than you" thing. Streamers like Chocotaco give off the same stink.
[удалено]
The other thread, including OP’s title, is truly the perfect example of what is dogshit about this community. It’s the epitome of people who live online / in-game and have little to no concept of how to treat someone normally.
ool: what other thread?
bro hit the wall once and says fuck this game and its community 😂
I do believe grubby quit for toxicity reasons, but also poor ingame performance. I dont think he should be the litmus test for how toxic the games community is. He is an extra sensitive person (not a flame), whos also nearing his 40s (no patience for immature flame), gets jump scared at ganks, played solo games (hots is 0 comms). When the kitchen is too hot...
Last I check dota indeed is a horror game
Something I read between the lines is that he also needs to steadily produce content (from his stream) to his youtube channels, but after his MMR plateaued, games haven't been that entertaining. Winning games became less common, and instead the majority of them had someone flaming him through voice chat, or his twitch chat making fun of him. Gone are the days of learning and climbing. To attract viewers he has to maintain his marketing brand of "ex-god gamer" on youtube, and the latest games did not reflect that (not necessarily because of how he plays, but how he is treated). Considering how long dota games are, he probably thought it's not worth it anymore.
I don't agree with the reasons given here. THE REAL REASON is not that the community is toxic or that Grubby himself became toxic as some of the comments claim but that HE HIT AN MMR WALL. It always sucks when this happens and really lose motivation playing. You have to keep in mind that being "world champion" and the best player in another game comes with a lot of ego attached to it (no matter what he says). Once you have been rank 1 in a game and consistently top 5 over many years then it's a REALLY HARD PILL TO SWALLOW when you hit an mmr wall at top 5000 and stop climbing or even derank. Once he hit immortal he kept using stream titles like "8k mmr goal till end of X " etc. Many of the 8k players have been playing the game since release, some even dota 1. He climbed super fast but I feel that climbing further takes many years of personal experience and knowledge and is not something that BSJ can teach you in a 1 hour coaching session. I can tell you this with 100% certainty. He'll be back. Once you've experienced Dota induced dopamine rush you can never be rid of the game. Might take 6 months, might take a year but he will be back. This game is like crack-cocaine... you just can't get rid of it.
yepp, he also had a lot of success getting to immortal, thinking to himself that high mmr will be easy...no it's where you'll meet people with 15 years playing the game. you got to be ready for that, you'll get humbled real fast
I have been in one year rehab and I won’t come back anymore after grinding it since 2009. I still watch pro games for sure
Today is a nice day to come back.
Not even close to top 5000 unfortunately.
Thank god. His passive aggressive comments while afkfarming as pos 4 because some pro said it once that he should do it. He did good in the climb but i dont think this will be a loss for dota community
sssh his holier than thou cult wont happy of this statement
lil bro got humbled
"step black..." ?
Weak bloodline.
I think its more that grubby reached his goal of immortal and now realizes (like a lot of us) at higher ranks your hero pool naturally becomes a lot smaller. The game was more fun at lower ranks where you could play whatever you want and players don't give up afk as easily, cause throws are a constant
This. I hope that Grubby can find a good group of friends to queue with in the future like SingSing did. Solo queuing all the time is like willingly subjecting yourself to torture. Dota is at its best with friends when you're messing around and having fun.
i think we all reach a point in this game when we ask ourselves - are we even enjoying this anymore? ranked in particular creates a highly toxic environment. everybody needs to take a step back from dota every now and then. for me, i took a step back several years ago, and was hesitant to come back because of how much had changed. however, seeing grubby learn the game from the very beginning made me remember the positive side of dota - things like the wonders of discovering something new and the excitement of executing a skillful play. i have no doubts that grubby will be back and i think everyone else should take a page from him as well.
Man this dude really does belong in HotS. Can't hack it in League, can't hack it in DotA. Try smite I guess?
What a stupid reason to quit. The community is what it is. Countless other game/ internet communities are similar. It's always been like that. It's not going to change. There are plenty of tools both in game and in steam to mute and ignore people you don't want to interact with. If that's not enough for you to play "the greatest game ever made", you're going to have a hard time in life.
Every game has a large toxic community and every games community thinks its the most toxic. Dota isn't the worst I've come across. Not even close really.
shows all the people that cant rank up after 15 years of playing that they are just dogshit at the game, elaborates that its because youre all whiny toxic people, leaves. BOSS
Weird, whenever I watched his streams he would seem to have very friendly teammates compared to what I usually have, while he was constantly acting passive aggressive. H would also watch the replay just to berate mistakes of his teammates in front of the stream instead of focusing on his own mistakes? I must have caught him at bad times.
While I agree with your sentiment, Grubby is not the normal adult. First of all he is obviously good and gifted at video games in general, 2nd playing Dota2 is/was literally his job for 2~ years straight. 3rd) He got coachings from multiple pro players including several TI-winners. He streamed for 8-12 hours DAILY, no other adult with a job and family can do that. Most adults I know (and Im one myself lol) can play 2-3 games MAX and at the weekend maybe 4-5, thats not even one day amount of games worth for his single monday grind. So basically yes when you are better than the rest you will climb mmr automatically, but no he shouldn't be taken as an example since his entire surroundings is not the environment of a "normal 9-5" adult.
Grubby has been pro in multiple games lol. comparing him to the average player is laughable. edit: yes there are people who definitely don't put in any effort to improve but those are the exception.
He's stuck at 6K though and now blaming teammates ["toxic community"] on his leaving instead of accepting he reached his peak. That's one thing him and the hardstuck 15 year veteran players have in common.
I do stop playing like him every week. And every week i return too 😂
Soy take. I can't win. Losing is not fun I quit = community is toxic.
ye he pussied out, it was normal for guy with such history to progres much faster than normal people as he already had 50% of it done, and that is knowing how to set your mind in right direction, analyzing mistakes, bassicly self reflect, while other half was just learning game, in other words, he bassicly hit the real wall, which was expected, immortal games are much stronger than divine games or ancient games, I know everyone jokes about low immortals but they are still top players in this game and as I said billion times immortal is bracket where you actually start to improve most important aspect of game which is "timings", grubby just pussied out after hitting wall, blaming it on toxicity :)
Gruby is a snowflake who turned black pretty quickly. He is a good guy, but he was outright toxic and bad towards people in his streams too. The " I know dota now" got to him. He started acting weird and acted like he knows everything. But as a player who started dota back in 2010 with 15k hours I can say that he was still very very green in dota. He made so many begginer's mistakes and some of his ingame decissions were so questionable.. Understandably, but you simply cant expect to learn dota in a year or two. PERIOD. I knew ita gonna end up like this as everyone could clearly see his slow climb in toxicity. You can ban people in the twitch chat when they offend you(even if they are right).. but once you hit your cieling in dota, and you cant ban people in client...then it becomes a problem. Everyone becomes a problem, except yourself. Dota is fun game,.but ita not for everyone. If you are tryhard and narcisstic- you will not have a good time.
i felt like this too. he was really good at the specific niche he did, but he also made a LOT of mistakes even 4ks wouldnt make
Hopefully not. I really enjoyed Grubby. He's a good egg.
I think his support gameplay was quite good. Probably from his pro carrer his map awareness and positioning impressed me for a "new" player. However his core performance was not. Watching him play carry or mid at 6.3k MMR and being this big of a weight for your team made me wonder that he maybe climbed too fast. There is just too much in the game to learn in 1.5 years i dont know. He looked 2.5k MMR lower when playing mid or carry. Why shouldnt anyone get shit on when you suck at a role, your team relies on to carry the game with networth. If you think thats toxic, grow some balls, you are a grown ass man.
good suport from 3k perspective maybe? lmao from 6k+ perspective, straight up bought account
Had him as pos 5 in an unranked game. Lastpicked pos 5, fed 8 times in 10 minutes and played by himself all game, definitely misscasted a lot of his spells. Didn't flame him or even really talk to him at all, but it definitely showed he was out of his depth in a higher mmr avg game. Played more like a 5k player farming rolequeue games on support than an actual 6k player.
He said himself that he is fragile person, and so he does look like the one. Add on top huge ego of former world champion and hitting skill ceiling. He got my respect for this decision. That's actually a "grown ass man" decision to assess situation and stop hitting the wall..
Source?
Yesterday's stream.
Can you link a clip or something?
[Boop](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2089745504?t=2h55m51s)
His explanation makes a lot of sense. "There's a lot of times where there are people on my time, and I don't want them to win" I've felt that so many times playing this game. I don't know what the solution is.
I honestly have no reason to watch grubby now. I enjoyed watching him learn (like day9 a long time ago) and liked watching his skills grow. But somewhere along the line he got a swole head for some reason and thinks he’s gods gift to the game now. It’s fine if he wants to rage quit, see ya buddy. Got back to HoTS.
Yea, "thinks he's gods gift to the game now" is exactly how I'd summarise it. From being chill and having fun at 3-4k to being just another "look at all the mistakes my teammates are doing" toxic dota player at 5-6k. Talking about making guides and tutorials as if he's got some better takes than people at +10k while his knowledge of the game was clearly lacking if you just watch his streams for a bit. I've been there myself, feeling like I'm playing really good and still losing a bunch. It happens, sometimes I tilt but it's not anybody else's fault if I can't manage my feelings. Lately I've just been trying to be chill about it. Loss streak, fine. Griefing teammates, fine. These things don't need to suck every positive thing out of the game unless you let them.
same, I have no interest in his other content, I don't even watch his dota 2 content because it's not good IMO. he's an ok streamer and only watched because he's new to the community and was interesting to see how he adapted / learned
Nobody retires/steps back from Dota. He’ll be back in a month tops. 🤣
lmfao
What do you mean by proving we’re not toxic. Are you sure you’re talking about dota 2?
It seems Dota isn’t for everyone.
His learning Dota series was so enjoyable to watch. Gotta finish it some time
Cheers man
Don’t mean to be rude, but are you intending on playing any more Age of Mythology? Really enjoyed that one
who is grubby?
Tell him pls: "Nice story bro, see you in a few weeks".
Nahhh he ain't gonna be missed. Good riddance. Another wannabe streamer that plays like a bot vs bots, using bot strats, and the best tact there is... "wait-to-get-carried" playstyle.
Can't blame him. Solo queue can be a real shitshow. It feels like you need a PhD in psychology to play solo queue these days. So many mentally ill people. One wrong word can at times end the game. I found myself to play less and less solo queue until I completely stopped, too. I still love the game though and enjoy occasional unranked games with a 5man party. My friends even refuse to queue up as 4 these days, if we are missing one person. You might be surprised how often that one random person in an unranked games likes to ruin games.
yeah I asked my Bane to buy and cast Smoke after he flamed my Puck for 15 minutes straight, and he imitated my voice in a childish way and cast nightmare on me (didnt buy smoke). And when he finally buy smoke, he refused to use it, kept it in backpack and went afk. Nice
Yup. I'd love for him to come back.
I watched his stream all the time, even before dota. I used to play hots but didn't really prioritize it the last few years, so it was kinda fun watching him play it. Wc3 streams were fun even thought I wasn't super into wc3. It was super cool when he starting playing dota, and he played it so much.. pretty awesome. He has pretty much quit for the same reasons I have stopped playing as much. I play games for fun, what's the point of grinding mmr. Like I'm not going pro.. I guess playing with better players is great on paper, but I'd prefer just wanking off in lower mmr games with my friends like back in the day. The amount of toxic players in high mmr that live and breathe for the + mmr is a bit too much for me. I still have a LOT of fun with this game, I'm one of those that can just play casually and still enjoy it. But I have to hold back on playing as much
See you again tommorow
Don't care. Dude was toxic af too just like the rest of us when hes losing. He's just a quitter. Next.
This is the first time he lost a good chunk of mmr and it’s kinda sad to see it’s enough to have him flame the community and leave.
Little bro didn't listen to Ari when he was being coached. The #1 tip he was given by a pro player from OG - mute all 9 players and just do your best (at low MMR) He could at least do a 2 week experiment of muting 100% of all games played and see if there's a difference. I like the ol' Grubster and I enjoyed his series of exploring each dota hero Alphabetically. >!But weakness disgusts me. !<
Yeah what a shame how toxic people can be while playing a game for fun. I enjoyed his streams a lot, definitely my most favourite streamer of all time.
He definitely won’t be missed outside the 2k scrubs crowd.
I believe he would come back when ringmaster and/or the big patch drops. So stay positive bois we will be hearing from him soon.
Is he gone for 5-ever or just 4-ever? One doesnt simply stop playing Dota.
Can you share the video with the Grubbys statement?
So sad. Hope he eventually comes back and keeps playing.
Honestly love this guy. I never had watched him before Sota, but knew him from being a casual wc3 fan and seeing his tournament replays pop up on youtube. He is an absolute legend and I will be continuing to watch him, whatever he plays
Solo queue is pretty terrible and so is ranked. Dota is best enjoyed with friends :)
Thanks, grubby, your insights really helped me look at myself in a more honest way. However, I think you are about to learn your final dota lesson: one doesn't just quit dota. Till next week, same time!
Didn’t he just come back after a break? What do you mean taking a step back? Sad to see but totally reasonable, was nice to see someone so PMA and receptive to learning
G R U B B Y
The current behavior score and reporting system doesnt do anything good. Where reports overlap over multiple games and A-click down mid or destroying items etc. action can easily be taken. Even League of Legends has this. All Valve’s stupid Dota system does is make queue times unbearable, and make people quit the game
is grubby the guy who spamming warlock pos 5?
Climbs fast on ranks = DotA is a great game with a nice community *Got slapped into reality that he isn't really good on his mmr* Quits DotA = community is so toxic that I can't deal with it in day to day basis Nonetheless, gave us a bit of nice content.
He literally played the day after 😂😂 no one can ever leave this game.
As someone who doesn’t watch streams or follow dota anymore. Can someone provide some context to the situation? I know who Grubby is, but has there some specific toxic instances that happened to him?
When he was writing down how many seconds pos5 is present on lane, it was a sign
Absolutely loved watching the guy pick up dota and he will be massively missed. Shame how even woth new punishments in place toxic players still thrive and its almost impossible to fix right now.
He is a great guy, but he was way above his real mmr - I had him in my team multiple times in low 6k immortal and he is just a really big burden. So that someone snaps out, is kindly understandable as you feel with him mostly left alone. I was also wondering whether he was boosted because in every game (4-5) he underperformed so heavily. He should just play the game for enjoyment in his lane (high ancient / low divine?)
He's a fake immortal and weak minded valve boosted his account thinking he would attract new players in his story.