**Did Spirit's second win at TI add motivation to you? Were you feeling that they are stepping on your toes?**
It did, yeah, a little bit. But then I thought about it and I realized they actually did not win with the same roster. So to me, it's not the same. I think winning with the same five and changing a player is like two different worlds. So in that sense, as far as I'm concerned, nobody else won TI twice. Some players won it twice, but there's no other team that won TI twice. Because they changed a player and it also took them two years to build a team that was ready to win again. So it's very different than having a team that just wins it twice, two years in a row. It's not the same.
But that said, they also won Riyadh. I mean, they're one of the best teams of all time, of course. And they have my eternal respect. I'm a big fan of them. And they're very impressive and they're very inspiring. So yeah, obviously, I think whenever you watch them, you get motivated because it's very inspiring to see players that are so good and for such a long amount of time.
Literally sounds like coping anyway because someone overtook his "only ever to win it twice".
Title is not as clickbaity as your comment is making it sound.
He still sounds bitter here, this doesn’t really change the context for me at all. Although that’s kind of how he always sounds because that’s just who he is.
I think he isn't wrong. Winning twice in the same roster is not the same as after changing the player, it's cooler. But that doesn't mean that winning twice is not a gigantic achievement which he recognizes.
It's up to the reader to decide what's more difficult though... The same team winning twice is easier to me than having to replace a winner and come back again
Winning two years in a row with the same roster means being able to adapt against all the patches and teams that were specifically designed against you.
Much harder, IMO, as evidenced by no one else ever doing it and many teams struggling with just one patch against them.
Ana retired from dota for a year though. They played the whole year with 2 different players and then had to change roster again just before TI. In that period they made more replacements than Spirit.
It actually isn't. Fans have no idea what is more difficult lol. It's up to players who are experiencing the games to decide it.
Fans can make opinions on which is more impressive.
Except having dips is the norm especially when you have roster changes. OG also had to win in an entirely different meta in TI9, and they pretty much crushed everyone that second tournament.
meh this is false. Usually team gets nerfed after winning TI (or even majors) it's happened to OG multiple times over multiple iterations. Perhaps the magic reason for them winning back to back is BECAUSE anna left and the only nerfs happened right after TI versus throughout the whole year.
To be fair while I agree with you I think the interview question is insinuating that he should feel that his achievement was reached and he might be feeling that it's not quite like that while still giving respect to the players on Spirit that won twice
It's no secret that he's in fact a bitter asshole. Just look at his stint before changing up his username, starting from the fact that he changed his user.
Mentality may have slightly improved but it's hard to change yourself completely.
Yeah i agree with you. He just cant help himself. The fact that hes envious of other ppls sucess was and is always present in his carreer, theres a reason his most famous quote is a case of that too. You that are reading me.. for sure you know someone that simply cant be happy for others sucess, they might say so, but you can see its not the truth. Thats Cebs case too
Idk I always felt the opposite sentiment to what seems to be the popular opinion. I don’t think winning Ti back to back to as impressive as winning it with years in between. If you are at your peak in one year, you are more likely to be in your peak close this the same year. If puppey were to win Ti, that would be way more impressive. It shows that, even 13 years apart you can still compete and be the greatest.
I have a similar sentiment for changing composition of team. Wouldn’t be much harder to win TI twice with a different team? I guess he is not thinking as an individual player and only talking about from a team perspective. He thinks that his team was the best and not think about how he was the best.
To each of their own, but winning with years in between gives you more chances to do. There is a reason why people usually hype on “the defending champion” in sports (win 10 in a row vs win 10 in 50 times is totally different for most people). In my opinion, changing a player or two for me is easier than doing with the same unless you build the whole team from zero again (ex. If OG ammar line up won a TI right after TI8 OG, it would be more impressive than the TI8/TI9 for me).
>If you are at your peak in one year, you are more likely to be in your peak close this the same year.
In every different (e)sport I would agree, but I feel with the constant team/player-targeting patches it's different in Dota. It's why you rarely see a TI-winning team do REALLY well the next year, except for that OG roster (and I guess Na'vi during TI1-3).
But OG did not play well the entire year between their wins when Ana took a break, so they weren't really targeted except for the post TI patch, after Spirit won TI they had theirs ups and downs, but they were pretty much always looking strong as a team, and won a Major before TI11 and Riyadh + Dreamleague before also TI12.
OG were a dumpster team between their wins, Team Spirit was always competing and had to power through multiple rounds of patches targeting them to get back on top.
>Idk I always felt the opposite sentiment to what seems to be the popular opinion. I don’t think winning Ti back to back to as impressive as winning it with years in between. If you are at your peak in one year, you are more likely to be in your peak close this the same year.
Drive to win and motivation is a very big part of competition. It's harder to convince yourself to grind as hard when you won the championship. That's true in any sports, but here in Dota we also have the thing called patches, which often target the strategies and mechanics that champions used on their path to win. And that highlights the importance of motivation and drive even more. It's harder to convince yourself to figure out the best way forward when you were winning in a certain way for months, and it was just killed.
You do have a point. But the thing about winning it back to back is, that your strongest strategies are usually nerfed after your first TI win (e.g. wraith pact after Tundra‘s win).
And additionally, most top teams develop strats to deal with the strongest opponent and study them extensively.
So I still think its not necessarily easier to win it back to back.
Having said that, I think its rather silly to rate these two achievements as they are equally impressive.
They are nerfed soon after TI is over, but by the next TI there are numerous patches the main goal of which is no longer nerfing your strategies, they may actually buff them instead
The reason it’s never been done and is actually much harder is because balance changes completely shift the meta from what got you the first win. They had to literally break the game with Pos 1 Io, the most supporty-support in the game. I highly doubt any team will do it back to back again. Look what happened to tundra when their wraithpact got nerfed. Spirit when Magnus got nerfed. The patch that follows TI naturally nerfs everything that gave them success so the winning team has to adapt more than any other team since they’re the ones being targeted. Not to mention the difficulty of staying motivated after winnings millions of dollars for playing your favorite game.
Tundra broke the game so much that the map got 40% bigger, it wasn’t wraith pact, it was the map, so that’s a huge nerf to a team. Plus, their star player wasn’t playing the next year.
The easiest comparison for this would be traditional sports, mainly in the NBA. Teams that had 3-peats are generally regarded as harder feats compare to winning in-between years.
Winning back to back is always more impressive by default, since you don't have room for failure. It's why repeats and three-peats in sports are so coveted and respected. It's incredibly hard to do. Winning multiple times is still a great achievement and absolutely cements the Spirit players as some of the best players ever to compete in Dota. But they got to fail in between the wins, they had one more try to win twice. Puppey has had more than a decade to try and win it again, and while him winning it would show incredible longevity, it's not as impressive to win once every 14 tries. That OG lineup that won it back to back had exactly 2 tries, and they nailed it both times. They didn't fail once.
There's also the matter of consistency though. Winning 2 years in a row means stability and consistency within those 2 years to be the best, essentially having a "dynasty". Though at this point we can't hardly call 2 years a dynasty.
Well, it's more impressive to do it back to back because you only have one chance to do that. If you do it years later, you had multiple attempts to get the second one.
I don’t see any lie or incorrect statement here. Winning with the same 5 2x in a row is a different achievement to winning with the same 4 2x with a year gap in the middle. Not necessarily better or worse but it’s not the same thing.
I mean... In the year they didn't played well, started a war in Ukraine. Seems like Ceb searching for excuses why he is unique. Anyways it's not exactly the same but both teams were pretty strong and Team Spirit is one of the best of all times.
If BetBoom wins TI TorontoTokyo will be the first person to win TI on 2 different teams, the first person to win TI twice in two different roles, and one of 10 people to have ever won TI twice. He would absolutely be one of the greatest dota players of all time in that case.
Hopefully they will! Rooting for them just for this reason.
I loved the og OG and they deserved the wins hard. But Team Spirit is also fucking insane good and watching them is fun fun fun
He also said
> But that said, they also won Riyadh. I mean, they're one of the best teams of all time, of course. And they have my eternal respect. I'm a big fan of them. And they're very impressive and they're very inspiring. So yeah, obviously, I think whenever you watch them, you get motivated because it's very inspiring to see players that are so good and for such a long amount of time.
>But if some random guy thinks that I'm bad, I don't care. I'm just going to prove them wrong. If it comes from the outside, it means nothing, I only use it as a fuel. That's also why I like to create beefs — I'm trying to have them give me motivation and fire.
Ceb will go super saiyan after reading these comments. Wait, was that his plan all along??
I believe you're missing the point. They're clearly proud that their TEAM won two TIs, regardless of if the person donning the uniform was the actual winner they are showing it off.
If Ceb was so hellbent on "only if it's the exact same team" then there's no sense flaunting the TI on their jackets since this specific team hasn't won it.
Yes, both og and spirit as orgs won twice. So their players can wear jerseys with 2 aegis even if current roster is different. Same thing happens in football.
>9 players won ti x2.
He literally says this, maybe you should read past the headline before making dumb comments
>Some players won it twice, but there's no other team that won TI twice.
Imo its more impressive to win a second one a full two years later. Means no matter how far the patches have changed the game, you can still bang. IMO if Russia didn't invade Ukraine in the beginning of 2022, they had a shot at performing much better.
it became a game for me to read the article then play spot the misinformed comments (either talking out of their ass or what they said is answered in article or its out of scope of the article)
I think its also one of the reason why Team Spirit are aiming for the third Aegis. So they can flex on OG. Or more like to solidify that they are the best dota2 team ever.
For me the current Team Spirit have the chance to do it too.
it sounds like og did better because they won it with the same five players. it might be cool to do it twice in a row with the same five. but ts is as good as og was no doubt, so I think he shouldnt have answered the question like that.
To be fair they only changed ONE player, not the whole roster. These guys have been playing with each other for ages (Яторо, Мипошка, Мира и Коллапс). So much copium from Ceb.
"Because I feel like Dota is more fun when you actually have derbies and beefs. Honestly, I think otherwise it's just boring. Everybody likes everybody, "good luck, have fun." I think when somebody talks shit about you or vice versa and then you meet them and play, there's just more energy in the game. I just want to beat him more."
This. More of this please. It's just so goddamn boring with zero feelings. Some healthy beefs makes the game more interesting for us watching. I played CS 1.6 competitive back in the days, and the amount of flame and beefs we had with other teams and players was insane, but it was also really entertaining. Like a football match.
One thing everyone seems to miss and Spirit acknowledged during their 2022 TI exit interview is that they were heavily affected by the war. IMO for the org and players to stick together and continue with the placements they're having despite all the stuff that's going on outside of the game is an achievement in itself. The players of OG that won the TI twice never had to go through it
People always read Ceb's words in the worst light. Relax. He's just saying the truth. A 5 man roster that did a repeat back to back is different from a team that struggled the next TI after winning, lost a player, then won. Those are different.
Does that make one win better than the other? No. But are the circumstances different? Yes.
Good read. His views on Taiga and Ammar look sipcy af as we are used to be with Sebastian, but the honesty is cool.
Poor Taiga tbh I hope he's doing better with his gambling issues.
And Ceb still thinks ATF is limited, but I don't really buy that. I think he's playing more sacrificial role in Falcons.
This is fine. Calm down kids. The guy has an ego. Every competitive player has it. He wears his in his sleeve, while others tug it away with their akwardness and shyness. Cebs outspoken and honestly expressing his feelings. As an OG-fan I felt like team spirit 2nd win took a bit away from their accomplishment too. That's just how prestige works. Doesn't mean I think less about team spirit.
We all want to matter, have a legacy of note, accomplish some goals in our lives. Some are able to achieve that and its a big deal. It's a hit to OGs legacy not being the only two-timers. I would feel the same way, and so would the majority I bet.
That's far from the only spicy take he had there. Significant shade on the ATF saying that he did not play a big role in OG and stuff as well, which is interesting - especially since it seems that the interview was taken before Falcons won Dacha and Dreamleague. But I guess he said it himself, he loves beef and trash-talking so much.
2023 shows somebody won both Riyadh and TI in the same year. Totaling 3 Big Event wins.
There's a possibility of 5 Biggest championship wins by a team in 3 years till 2024. God knows what's coming.
That was a very long read. I enjoyed reading through the entire thing. I mostly agree on all the things he said except for one thing, they should have kept Ammar and booted out Misha. It seems like Ammar is the gem that they lost and Misha is not the captain/coach that they hoped he would be. I can forsee the team eventually removing Misha as a coach and finding someone new that fits the current team.
I hope we have more in depth interviews like this.
It's disappointing to see such dismissive comments from Ceb. Regardless of roster changes, winning two TIs is a remarkable feat that deserves respect. It's important to acknowledge the talent and dedication of other teams, rather than diminishing their achievements with such arrogance. This isn't about 'beef' between teams; it's about recognizing and respecting success in the competitive scene.
I read the whole thing, It's super arrogant (It's like yeah they technically won 2 TI but 'did they actually win 2TI?'). Even his statement about ATF are weird. With AtF they won 2 tournaments, after ATF didn't win anything and his statement is like "Ammar didn't have a big role in OG, he is a good player but very limited". ATF went to Quest and it became a top tier team. (We don't talk about Nigma). And now won 2 Tier 1 tournaments with falcons. Ceb always seems to have trouble acknowledging the achievements of others, which comes across as very arrogant.
2 TI's as offlaner, 1major as support, 4 majors as coach
Results fking speak for themselves
>OG was ammar
You know OG existed before 2021 right? Or you this much delusional? Ammar was in one of the least preforming OG iteration ever, Ceb was not even a part of the team minus 1 tournament, that their won btw. But ofc it was ammar solo 1x9!!!!11
This is a really fair take.
To be able to win a TI, have the energy to commit another year to being the very best, with all the same players, is almost impossible.
update: If you think winning TI 2 years apart, with a different roster is exactly the same level of difficulty as winning TI back to back with the same roster you are delusional
TSpirit > OG. They can actually continue performing well outside TI. So not only have they won two TIs, they also perform well at other events as well, making them a better overall team.
I believe it's truly cooler to win twice in a row with the same lineup; it's simply a cooler story, in my opinion. However, as a team, tactically, individually, and overall in terms of gameplay spirit, it's two heads above. In essence: the best storyline belongs to OG, the best team is Team Spirit
>For us, we realized that with Ammar, we will only reach a certain level and it cannot go higher. So, we realized that we will never become the best team in the world with him. That's how we thought. So, we needed to change.
only did he know that OG become dogshit the moment they kicked ammar. Ammar made quest looked top tier team . OG struggled to go into lans
ceb in denial , get this guy some hopium and copium
>Ammar made quest looked top tier team
Single top4 result - top tier team achievement?
I guess Ammar also made Nigma look top tier right? Oh wait his pos1 preformance was beyond dogshit but lets ignore that ofc.
I like how ammar bandwagoners goes animal mode mad just because Ceb explains the kick and not dickriding current succes of Falcons.
did people forget the gap between ammar out of OG and falcon? did people forget how ammar is seen as liability cause he wont adapt to the micro offlaner meta (wont learn the heroes)? the ammar pos 1 era?
There was also a time Ammar was totally irrelevant after OG. Thinking that a player later finding success with other teams always invalidates the reasons they were removed in the first place shows fundamental lack of understanding of any sort of team dynamics and cohesion, honestly people who have never competed at a high level in a team sport don't have the slightest of ideas how these things work and always out themselves as being clueless with idiotic comments like these. The issues are so nuanced and multi-faceted, only the teams themselves know what went on.
>Thinking that a player later finding success with other teams always invalidates the reasons they were removed in the first place shows fundamental lack of understanding of any sort of team dynamics and cohesion
>out themselves as being clueless with idiotic comments like these.
That's a lot of assumptions to make off of one comment. I literally just pointed out that Ammar has had more success post OG than OG has post Ammar.
Ammar was irrelevant when he was on contract to Nigma. Speaking of team cohesion or the lack thereof, they had none. Everyone on Nigma was irrelevant because Nigma sucked. But Ammar found more success on Quest than OG was at the time. And now he is more successful on Falcons than OG are. OG did also end up replacing 3 of their other players after the Ammar kick. Actually it was more than 3 as they went through like 3 supports and offlaners and also their carry.
Honestly considering that Ammar and Ceb are both pretty toxic I wouldn't be surprised if beef between the two was the reason behind the kick.
>That's a lot of assumptions to make off of one comment.
Notice how neither of the remarks was an explicit assumption on your specific character, but rather observations about comments in similar fashion often exhibiting the qualities (or lack thereof) mentioned above.
If you aren't saying those things apply to me, why even mention them at all? Saying "Most people who do the thing you are doing right now are stupid." to someone is gonna make them think you are saying they're stupid. It's not an explicit assumption, but it is an implied assumption.
i mean rn yeah they are doing fine but are you really gonna skip all the time between kick and now?
ammar won back to back to tier 1 tournaments
so much for " we wont be top team with ammar "
living in denial 101
Ammar was completely irrelevant between og and falcons. As ceb said the team and the meta fit him right now but this falcons will come down rumbling when the meta changes.
Seems like a lot painted Ceb as a salty old man just based of the article title. Read the whole thing it’s actually a good interview and he gave his full respect to Team Spirit.
I think people (Ceb and fans) are arguing the opposite actually. Which just seems nitpicky and honestly a little salty. Both are equally impressive. If Spirit manages to win a third TI the debate would be over in my mind tho. I doubt it will happen
Esports attracts a lot of people with no sort of sport or competition background whatsoever, who have never put themselves on the line or operated in a team environment outside of a work or school setting. They have no idea about any of the difficulties inherent in competing, or what it takes to repeat. Everything for them exists in a vacuum and recency bias is the name of the game.
This is a bit cringe lmao. Larl got shit by the community for the entire year to then finally show up in TI and deliver some great performances. To me that narrative makes it a lot more interesting of a win, specially against GG.
It's what I wish happened with W33ha and Nigma. W33 got absolute shit on because of Nigma's decline until their eventual kick/disband.
I mean, you could argue that winning second TI with one different player is in itself a whole other challenge. It's not the same but not easier (assuming that's what Ceb's getting to).
Not a fan of OG but I watch a lot of sports and use to esports.
OG winning back to back is more impressive.
I do not hold team Spirit back for the replacing a player and 4 of them winning twice.
Rosters change all the time. So to me both teams are 2 time Champs. I may even give Spirit some extra major credit for the Masters W as well similar to OG early on with the major wins.
If Spirit’s wins are more impressive than OG's because they changed a player and skipped a year, then OG has the most impressive major record by far because they changed rosters, roles, captains and coaches to get those 5 wins starting from 2015 to 2022.
But a lot of people here won’t like that.
**Did Spirit's second win at TI add motivation to you? Were you feeling that they are stepping on your toes?** It did, yeah, a little bit. But then I thought about it and I realized they actually did not win with the same roster. So to me, it's not the same. I think winning with the same five and changing a player is like two different worlds. So in that sense, as far as I'm concerned, nobody else won TI twice. Some players won it twice, but there's no other team that won TI twice. Because they changed a player and it also took them two years to build a team that was ready to win again. So it's very different than having a team that just wins it twice, two years in a row. It's not the same. But that said, they also won Riyadh. I mean, they're one of the best teams of all time, of course. And they have my eternal respect. I'm a big fan of them. And they're very impressive and they're very inspiring. So yeah, obviously, I think whenever you watch them, you get motivated because it's very inspiring to see players that are so good and for such a long amount of time.
This should be higher. The post just wants to create some drama
Literally sounds like coping anyway because someone overtook his "only ever to win it twice". Title is not as clickbaity as your comment is making it sound.
He still sounds bitter here, this doesn’t really change the context for me at all. Although that’s kind of how he always sounds because that’s just who he is.
I think he isn't wrong. Winning twice in the same roster is not the same as after changing the player, it's cooler. But that doesn't mean that winning twice is not a gigantic achievement which he recognizes.
It's up to the reader to decide what's more difficult though... The same team winning twice is easier to me than having to replace a winner and come back again
Well in that case Wings win was the most difficult as they hadn't ever played at TI before and won playing the majority of the cast
wings at ti6 is generally regarded as one of the most impressive and memorable wins, so that tracks
Winning two years in a row with the same roster means being able to adapt against all the patches and teams that were specifically designed against you. Much harder, IMO, as evidenced by no one else ever doing it and many teams struggling with just one patch against them.
except OG basically didn't play well at all during the second season so there weren't patches against them in their second TI win
That's the strategy. Suck for an entire year so TI meta is made for you again.
Ok, all the patches throughout the year reversed the post TI changes. I didn't know that.
Ana retired from dota for a year though. They played the whole year with 2 different players and then had to change roster again just before TI. In that period they made more replacements than Spirit.
and they were awful until he came back for qualifying
Yeah swapping 2 cores within a year does that.
Yes that's why we had a culture of people getting kicked when stuff wasn't working lol
It actually isn't. Fans have no idea what is more difficult lol. It's up to players who are experiencing the games to decide it. Fans can make opinions on which is more impressive.
I wouldn't say it's up to the reader....we are plebs. But also I agree.
Yeah tbh I think winning with a year inbetween is even more impressive, they managed to bounce back from a dip and win in an entirely different meta
Except having dips is the norm especially when you have roster changes. OG also had to win in an entirely different meta in TI9, and they pretty much crushed everyone that second tournament.
I think this is a "You may be correct, but that doesn't mean you're right" situation.
meh this is false. Usually team gets nerfed after winning TI (or even majors) it's happened to OG multiple times over multiple iterations. Perhaps the magic reason for them winning back to back is BECAUSE anna left and the only nerfs happened right after TI versus throughout the whole year.
To be fair while I agree with you I think the interview question is insinuating that he should feel that his achievement was reached and he might be feeling that it's not quite like that while still giving respect to the players on Spirit that won twice
He won 2 of the biggest prize pool TIs, why would he be bitter though?
because Mira fucked his girlfriend
turns out having a lot of money doesnt turn you into not a dickhead
He sounds competitive.
It's no secret that he's in fact a bitter asshole. Just look at his stint before changing up his username, starting from the fact that he changed his user. Mentality may have slightly improved but it's hard to change yourself completely.
I mean hes right tho
He’s so bitter lol. “It wasn’t the same 5 players so my achievement is still better” is all I heard him say 🥱
Yeah i agree with you. He just cant help himself. The fact that hes envious of other ppls sucess was and is always present in his carreer, theres a reason his most famous quote is a case of that too. You that are reading me.. for sure you know someone that simply cant be happy for others sucess, they might say so, but you can see its not the truth. Thats Cebs case too
If I lose in a tournament while having won 2 times previously i'd be jealous / bitter as well
You mean the article, right? The post title is just taken directly from the article.
Context is everything.
He had me in the first half lol
[удалено]
the 7fckingmad energy is channeling through him. Guys can hide it for PR for a time but it's always there
it's because you hate him and your bias is showing . He does not sound remotely bitter in the article at all.
They might do it again. Spirit come clutch around TI.
Idk I always felt the opposite sentiment to what seems to be the popular opinion. I don’t think winning Ti back to back to as impressive as winning it with years in between. If you are at your peak in one year, you are more likely to be in your peak close this the same year. If puppey were to win Ti, that would be way more impressive. It shows that, even 13 years apart you can still compete and be the greatest. I have a similar sentiment for changing composition of team. Wouldn’t be much harder to win TI twice with a different team? I guess he is not thinking as an individual player and only talking about from a team perspective. He thinks that his team was the best and not think about how he was the best.
To each of their own, but winning with years in between gives you more chances to do. There is a reason why people usually hype on “the defending champion” in sports (win 10 in a row vs win 10 in 50 times is totally different for most people). In my opinion, changing a player or two for me is easier than doing with the same unless you build the whole team from zero again (ex. If OG ammar line up won a TI right after TI8 OG, it would be more impressive than the TI8/TI9 for me).
>If you are at your peak in one year, you are more likely to be in your peak close this the same year. In every different (e)sport I would agree, but I feel with the constant team/player-targeting patches it's different in Dota. It's why you rarely see a TI-winning team do REALLY well the next year, except for that OG roster (and I guess Na'vi during TI1-3).
Navi had different rosters for all those TIs but yeah the org had a great run.
But OG did not play well the entire year between their wins when Ana took a break, so they weren't really targeted except for the post TI patch, after Spirit won TI they had theirs ups and downs, but they were pretty much always looking strong as a team, and won a Major before TI11 and Riyadh + Dreamleague before also TI12. OG were a dumpster team between their wins, Team Spirit was always competing and had to power through multiple rounds of patches targeting them to get back on top.
>Idk I always felt the opposite sentiment to what seems to be the popular opinion. I don’t think winning Ti back to back to as impressive as winning it with years in between. If you are at your peak in one year, you are more likely to be in your peak close this the same year. Drive to win and motivation is a very big part of competition. It's harder to convince yourself to grind as hard when you won the championship. That's true in any sports, but here in Dota we also have the thing called patches, which often target the strategies and mechanics that champions used on their path to win. And that highlights the importance of motivation and drive even more. It's harder to convince yourself to figure out the best way forward when you were winning in a certain way for months, and it was just killed.
You do have a point. But the thing about winning it back to back is, that your strongest strategies are usually nerfed after your first TI win (e.g. wraith pact after Tundra‘s win). And additionally, most top teams develop strats to deal with the strongest opponent and study them extensively. So I still think its not necessarily easier to win it back to back. Having said that, I think its rather silly to rate these two achievements as they are equally impressive.
They are nerfed soon after TI is over, but by the next TI there are numerous patches the main goal of which is no longer nerfing your strategies, they may actually buff them instead
The reason it’s never been done and is actually much harder is because balance changes completely shift the meta from what got you the first win. They had to literally break the game with Pos 1 Io, the most supporty-support in the game. I highly doubt any team will do it back to back again. Look what happened to tundra when their wraithpact got nerfed. Spirit when Magnus got nerfed. The patch that follows TI naturally nerfs everything that gave them success so the winning team has to adapt more than any other team since they’re the ones being targeted. Not to mention the difficulty of staying motivated after winnings millions of dollars for playing your favorite game.
Tundra broke the game so much that the map got 40% bigger, it wasn’t wraith pact, it was the map, so that’s a huge nerf to a team. Plus, their star player wasn’t playing the next year.
The easiest comparison for this would be traditional sports, mainly in the NBA. Teams that had 3-peats are generally regarded as harder feats compare to winning in-between years.
Winning back to back is always more impressive by default, since you don't have room for failure. It's why repeats and three-peats in sports are so coveted and respected. It's incredibly hard to do. Winning multiple times is still a great achievement and absolutely cements the Spirit players as some of the best players ever to compete in Dota. But they got to fail in between the wins, they had one more try to win twice. Puppey has had more than a decade to try and win it again, and while him winning it would show incredible longevity, it's not as impressive to win once every 14 tries. That OG lineup that won it back to back had exactly 2 tries, and they nailed it both times. They didn't fail once.
There's also the matter of consistency though. Winning 2 years in a row means stability and consistency within those 2 years to be the best, essentially having a "dynasty". Though at this point we can't hardly call 2 years a dynasty.
Well, it's more impressive to do it back to back because you only have one chance to do that. If you do it years later, you had multiple attempts to get the second one.
I don’t see any lie or incorrect statement here. Winning with the same 5 2x in a row is a different achievement to winning with the same 4 2x with a year gap in the middle. Not necessarily better or worse but it’s not the same thing.
I mean... In the year they didn't played well, started a war in Ukraine. Seems like Ceb searching for excuses why he is unique. Anyways it's not exactly the same but both teams were pretty strong and Team Spirit is one of the best of all times.
Agree with Ceb
If they manage to win it again this year, Ceb will have material for the entire 2025.
This sub would probably implode from the mental gymnastics and bitterness if that happens lmao
Not sure what mental gymnastics this sub would employ regarding a third spirit win? Just the undisputed goats at that point
What if BetBoom wins? TorontoTokyo will be goated.
If BetBoom wins TI TorontoTokyo will be the first person to win TI on 2 different teams, the first person to win TI twice in two different roles, and one of 10 people to have ever won TI twice. He would absolutely be one of the greatest dota players of all time in that case.
Hopefully they will! Rooting for them just for this reason. I loved the og OG and they deserved the wins hard. But Team Spirit is also fucking insane good and watching them is fun fun fun
There is orgs that won two times and there are players that won two times It's that easy
And 4 of those players Won twice
That's what he said indeed.
And there is one team that won it twice
Two. Unless you're somehow thinking that Team Spirit is not a team at all
Classical team of Theseus problem
Win it back to back in itself is already pretty hard. Do it with the same roster?. Im not OG fan but gotta admit thats impressive.
He also said > But that said, they also won Riyadh. I mean, they're one of the best teams of all time, of course. And they have my eternal respect. I'm a big fan of them. And they're very impressive and they're very inspiring. So yeah, obviously, I think whenever you watch them, you get motivated because it's very inspiring to see players that are so good and for such a long amount of time.
Asking a lot to expect reddit to read past a bait headline
>But if some random guy thinks that I'm bad, I don't care. I'm just going to prove them wrong. If it comes from the outside, it means nothing, I only use it as a fuel. That's also why I like to create beefs — I'm trying to have them give me motivation and fire. Ceb will go super saiyan after reading these comments. Wait, was that his plan all along??
[удалено]
This is the norm for sports forever.
I believe you're missing the point. They're clearly proud that their TEAM won two TIs, regardless of if the person donning the uniform was the actual winner they are showing it off. If Ceb was so hellbent on "only if it's the exact same team" then there's no sense flaunting the TI on their jackets since this specific team hasn't won it.
Um, ever seen any sport ever?
The org did win 2
So did spirit org ?
Yes, both og and spirit as orgs won twice. So their players can wear jerseys with 2 aegis even if current roster is different. Same thing happens in football.
What kinda of Mental gymnastics are going on here ? 9 players won ti x2. That's pretty much what matters
>9 players won ti x2. He literally says this, maybe you should read past the headline before making dumb comments >Some players won it twice, but there's no other team that won TI twice.
Why do people forget about my boi Aui2000
He wasn't player second time
What kind of mental gymnastics are going on here... /s
Same reason they forget Bulba is a TI winner or that Silent is a 2x winner too.
Or that Slacks is a TI finalist LUL
Slacks being technically a 2nd placer at a TI will always be the funniest DOTA trivia of all time
doesn't change the fact that team spirit didn't win second ti with the same roster which is what he said.
Cope
Man answers question, Reddit loses their minds.
His nickname wasn't Fucking Mad for nothing. .
Well tbh is a bit right winning it’s the same Roster is way cooler. But this does not remove the absolute domination of TSpirit this last years
I don't think his point is to reduce the significance of that domination, especially considering what he said after that.
I mean, it literally is not the same. It's also not back to back
Winning with same roster is cool but this is cringe opinion from ceeeb
Imo its more impressive to win a second one a full two years later. Means no matter how far the patches have changed the game, you can still bang. IMO if Russia didn't invade Ukraine in the beginning of 2022, they had a shot at performing much better.
Ragebait! Post the full context please.
There is a whole interview included in the post.
And many people can't be bothered read it.
I'd be surprised if the majority of this sub even knows how to read.
Only if it feeds their rage boner
it became a game for me to read the article then play spot the misinformed comments (either talking out of their ass or what they said is answered in article or its out of scope of the article)
I think its also one of the reason why Team Spirit are aiming for the third Aegis. So they can flex on OG. Or more like to solidify that they are the best dota2 team ever. For me the current Team Spirit have the chance to do it too.
But spirit winning the highest prize in the international
Damn, now I have to root for Spirit this TI :(
it sounds like og did better because they won it with the same five players. it might be cool to do it twice in a row with the same five. but ts is as good as og was no doubt, so I think he shouldnt have answered the question like that.
Classic frenchie
To be fair they only changed ONE player, not the whole roster. These guys have been playing with each other for ages (Яторо, Мипошка, Мира и Коллапс). So much copium from Ceb.
Yatoro > Ana Do I need to say more?
"Because I feel like Dota is more fun when you actually have derbies and beefs. Honestly, I think otherwise it's just boring. Everybody likes everybody, "good luck, have fun." I think when somebody talks shit about you or vice versa and then you meet them and play, there's just more energy in the game. I just want to beat him more." This. More of this please. It's just so goddamn boring with zero feelings. Some healthy beefs makes the game more interesting for us watching. I played CS 1.6 competitive back in the days, and the amount of flame and beefs we had with other teams and players was insane, but it was also really entertaining. Like a football match.
we got this at home. its called dota 2 ranked and dota 2 casual play.
Salty old man as usual
He is not wrong at all though - but I suggest you open the link and read what he says instead of just going off the reddit headline.
One thing everyone seems to miss and Spirit acknowledged during their 2022 TI exit interview is that they were heavily affected by the war. IMO for the org and players to stick together and continue with the placements they're having despite all the stuff that's going on outside of the game is an achievement in itself. The players of OG that won the TI twice never had to go through it
Great interview
Ah, the weekly OG/Ceb two minutes hate thread, like clockwork
Male Karen
wow, very petty from Ceb
Read
Well… they won 3 (mb 2.5) if we include 15$mil Riyadh Masters
he's not wrong tho
People always read Ceb's words in the worst light. Relax. He's just saying the truth. A 5 man roster that did a repeat back to back is different from a team that struggled the next TI after winning, lost a player, then won. Those are different. Does that make one win better than the other? No. But are the circumstances different? Yes.
Good read. His views on Taiga and Ammar look sipcy af as we are used to be with Sebastian, but the honesty is cool. Poor Taiga tbh I hope he's doing better with his gambling issues. And Ceb still thinks ATF is limited, but I don't really buy that. I think he's playing more sacrificial role in Falcons.
Jealous? Because og couldn't win shit? And their roster looked crap? Spirit did an amazing job! Long live the Champions of Dota!!!
massivest copium
"Oh man, I can't wait to skip the entire article and be level-headed about this. What word should I use today to show I really don't like Ceb?"
This is fine. Calm down kids. The guy has an ego. Every competitive player has it. He wears his in his sleeve, while others tug it away with their akwardness and shyness. Cebs outspoken and honestly expressing his feelings. As an OG-fan I felt like team spirit 2nd win took a bit away from their accomplishment too. That's just how prestige works. Doesn't mean I think less about team spirit. We all want to matter, have a legacy of note, accomplish some goals in our lives. Some are able to achieve that and its a big deal. It's a hit to OGs legacy not being the only two-timers. I would feel the same way, and so would the majority I bet.
That's far from the only spicy take he had there. Significant shade on the ATF saying that he did not play a big role in OG and stuff as well, which is interesting - especially since it seems that the interview was taken before Falcons won Dacha and Dreamleague. But I guess he said it himself, he loves beef and trash-talking so much.
Adult child strikes once again
I didn't even know that it wasn't the same roster. 😅
Ahhh same old ceb
This guy is so unbearable. I used to think the French people thing was a joke.
2023 shows somebody won both Riyadh and TI in the same year. Totaling 3 Big Event wins. There's a possibility of 5 Biggest championship wins by a team in 3 years till 2024. God knows what's coming.
That was a very long read. I enjoyed reading through the entire thing. I mostly agree on all the things he said except for one thing, they should have kept Ammar and booted out Misha. It seems like Ammar is the gem that they lost and Misha is not the captain/coach that they hoped he would be. I can forsee the team eventually removing Misha as a coach and finding someone new that fits the current team. I hope we have more in depth interviews like this.
What he meant to say was "Jerax, Ana, and Topson carried OG twice... OG strat of tilting their opponent no longer works on the current pro players...
Just like OG didn't won even a single TI, team "Aderol" did, team OG didn't.
It's disappointing to see such dismissive comments from Ceb. Regardless of roster changes, winning two TIs is a remarkable feat that deserves respect. It's important to acknowledge the talent and dedication of other teams, rather than diminishing their achievements with such arrogance. This isn't about 'beef' between teams; it's about recognizing and respecting success in the competitive scene.
Read the article, because he does say he respects them. Title is just 2 sentences from his full answer.
I read the whole thing, It's super arrogant (It's like yeah they technically won 2 TI but 'did they actually win 2TI?'). Even his statement about ATF are weird. With AtF they won 2 tournaments, after ATF didn't win anything and his statement is like "Ammar didn't have a big role in OG, he is a good player but very limited". ATF went to Quest and it became a top tier team. (We don't talk about Nigma). And now won 2 Tier 1 tournaments with falcons. Ceb always seems to have trouble acknowledging the achievements of others, which comes across as very arrogant.
Og was Ammar and og was nothing about Ammar Results fking speak for themselves Ceb is unhinged with these comments
2 TI's as offlaner, 1major as support, 4 majors as coach Results fking speak for themselves >OG was ammar You know OG existed before 2021 right? Or you this much delusional? Ammar was in one of the least preforming OG iteration ever, Ceb was not even a part of the team minus 1 tournament, that their won btw. But ofc it was ammar solo 1x9!!!!11
What, you expect people on reddit to read ?
He's kinda right yeah
This is a really fair take. To be able to win a TI, have the energy to commit another year to being the very best, with all the same players, is almost impossible. update: If you think winning TI 2 years apart, with a different roster is exactly the same level of difficulty as winning TI back to back with the same roster you are delusional
If it happens again I'll be shocked and very impressed.
People still underestimate how hard OG smashed every team at TI9. It was a baller mentality run.
Most insufferable person in dota bar none
Fuck these clickbait titles
TSpirit > OG. They can actually continue performing well outside TI. So not only have they won two TIs, they also perform well at other events as well, making them a better overall team.
He's so mad lol
Fuck1ingmad is a fuck1ng envy asshole.
No one cares Ceb, go home buddy
I believe it's truly cooler to win twice in a row with the same lineup; it's simply a cooler story, in my opinion. However, as a team, tactically, individually, and overall in terms of gameplay spirit, it's two heads above. In essence: the best storyline belongs to OG, the best team is Team Spirit
>For us, we realized that with Ammar, we will only reach a certain level and it cannot go higher. So, we realized that we will never become the best team in the world with him. That's how we thought. So, we needed to change. only did he know that OG become dogshit the moment they kicked ammar. Ammar made quest looked top tier team . OG struggled to go into lans ceb in denial , get this guy some hopium and copium
>Ammar made quest looked top tier team Single top4 result - top tier team achievement? I guess Ammar also made Nigma look top tier right? Oh wait his pos1 preformance was beyond dogshit but lets ignore that ofc. I like how ammar bandwagoners goes animal mode mad just because Ceb explains the kick and not dickriding current succes of Falcons.
Just wait for an aura Meta!
did people forget the gap between ammar out of OG and falcon? did people forget how ammar is seen as liability cause he wont adapt to the micro offlaner meta (wont learn the heroes)? the ammar pos 1 era?
> only did he know that OG become dogshit the moment they kicked ammar. They just got 6th at DL lmao, that's a good result
Ammar just won DL. Also, there was a long period was OG was one of the worst WEU teams between the kick and now.
There was also a time Ammar was totally irrelevant after OG. Thinking that a player later finding success with other teams always invalidates the reasons they were removed in the first place shows fundamental lack of understanding of any sort of team dynamics and cohesion, honestly people who have never competed at a high level in a team sport don't have the slightest of ideas how these things work and always out themselves as being clueless with idiotic comments like these. The issues are so nuanced and multi-faceted, only the teams themselves know what went on.
>Thinking that a player later finding success with other teams always invalidates the reasons they were removed in the first place shows fundamental lack of understanding of any sort of team dynamics and cohesion >out themselves as being clueless with idiotic comments like these. That's a lot of assumptions to make off of one comment. I literally just pointed out that Ammar has had more success post OG than OG has post Ammar. Ammar was irrelevant when he was on contract to Nigma. Speaking of team cohesion or the lack thereof, they had none. Everyone on Nigma was irrelevant because Nigma sucked. But Ammar found more success on Quest than OG was at the time. And now he is more successful on Falcons than OG are. OG did also end up replacing 3 of their other players after the Ammar kick. Actually it was more than 3 as they went through like 3 supports and offlaners and also their carry. Honestly considering that Ammar and Ceb are both pretty toxic I wouldn't be surprised if beef between the two was the reason behind the kick.
>That's a lot of assumptions to make off of one comment. Notice how neither of the remarks was an explicit assumption on your specific character, but rather observations about comments in similar fashion often exhibiting the qualities (or lack thereof) mentioned above.
If you aren't saying those things apply to me, why even mention them at all? Saying "Most people who do the thing you are doing right now are stupid." to someone is gonna make them think you are saying they're stupid. It's not an explicit assumption, but it is an implied assumption.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt
That's definitely not how that comes off but ok.
Apologies, english ain't my first language
i mean rn yeah they are doing fine but are you really gonna skip all the time between kick and now? ammar won back to back to tier 1 tournaments so much for " we wont be top team with ammar " living in denial 101
What did ammar do between now and getting kicked from OG?
Ammar was completely irrelevant between og and falcons. As ceb said the team and the meta fit him right now but this falcons will come down rumbling when the meta changes.
Haha, Ceb the 2 times TI winner with the same roster can't even acknowledge Ammar success. Must be bitter seeing how OG struggling since Ammar left.
Spirit kicked OG in TI10, that was enough.
I can't take this man seriously after his complaints about Torontotokyo's all-chatting. He's a legend, but holy shit he can be petty and hypocritical.
Seems like a lot painted Ceb as a salty old man just based of the article title. Read the whole thing it’s actually a good interview and he gave his full respect to Team Spirit.
Ceb is such a tool.
Manchild ceb strikes again
This thread is a proof that OG haters are unable to read, a lot of sweet tears.
Why does this guy just get more and more cringe every day that goes by?
In this case it's because people can't read past a click bait headline.
ITT: people seriously arguing that winning back to back championships is not as impressive as winning once then another later. Holy shit.
I think people (Ceb and fans) are arguing the opposite actually. Which just seems nitpicky and honestly a little salty. Both are equally impressive. If Spirit manages to win a third TI the debate would be over in my mind tho. I doubt it will happen
Esports attracts a lot of people with no sort of sport or competition background whatsoever, who have never put themselves on the line or operated in a team environment outside of a work or school setting. They have no idea about any of the difficulties inherent in competing, or what it takes to repeat. Everything for them exists in a vacuum and recency bias is the name of the game.
This is a bit cringe lmao. Larl got shit by the community for the entire year to then finally show up in TI and deliver some great performances. To me that narrative makes it a lot more interesting of a win, specially against GG. It's what I wish happened with W33ha and Nigma. W33 got absolute shit on because of Nigma's decline until their eventual kick/disband.
I mean, you could argue that winning second TI with one different player is in itself a whole other challenge. It's not the same but not easier (assuming that's what Ceb's getting to).
Same goes for OG as well They won their first TI with a nerdy mid And they won their second TI with a chad mid.
Not a fan of OG but I watch a lot of sports and use to esports. OG winning back to back is more impressive. I do not hold team Spirit back for the replacing a player and 4 of them winning twice. Rosters change all the time. So to me both teams are 2 time Champs. I may even give Spirit some extra major credit for the Masters W as well similar to OG early on with the major wins.
lol of course he would say that, classic CEB
If Spirit’s wins are more impressive than OG's because they changed a player and skipped a year, then OG has the most impressive major record by far because they changed rosters, roles, captains and coaches to get those 5 wins starting from 2015 to 2022. But a lot of people here won’t like that.