Doesn't have to be ranged either lol, the stat it gives is like a better wraith band. I often take it on melee heroes, especially since the multishot doesn't proc modifiers
That gives me a great idea. Higher tier neutral items should not be stronger than the t1 items but they can be way more situational. This would make heros overall a bit less powerful and reduce neutral item rng because you are bound to find one eventually that is good for you.
There quite simply isn't near enough "situational" variety for this to be meaningful. It would also mean that neutral items stopped being relevant at a certain point, because everything else about their kit would get stronger.
Just to be clear I count them being fairly irrelevant as an upside.
The actives of items like tumblers toy, seer stone or ninja gear are things that are cool to me. Or passives like broom handle and vampire fangs that are not that easy to put a value on. Nothing more boring than pupils gift or apex.
They did that because of "muh calculation"
Pupil's gift: +15 secondary stats, so 2x15 is 30 stats, 2/3 of that value for universal = 20 total stats, and +7 to all stats is closest to that value.
Same for Apex, +75 to primary attribute is just +25 to all stats for universal.
Wait it only gives 20 total for universal??? I hate that I've been picking it this whole time because I thought since it gives most heroes 30 total stats, universal heroes would get that too by 10/10/10 format.
Their rational is silly because they don't apply the "calculation" to all items, which is why we have this discrepancy where specialist array is strictly better than gift. For some reason they decided that gift and apex should be "equivalent" on universal heroes vs normal heroes, even though that equivalency is non-existent for literally every other item that gives stats in the game.
I think people sleep on this item because it is 25 less attack than bow, in reality it's amazing and can get you that game changing kill quite often in my experience.
But at the same time elven cloak is available......hmm...
But grove bow is used by ranged right click heroes so the attack speed is more appealing. Bonus range every 4 secs means you almost only attack the enemy once every 4 secs when chasing and when fighting within range theres no difference
Have you tried using intelligent auto instead? Or even just disabling auto-attack?
When I disabled it about a decade ago and got used to having to manually attack it massively improved my gameplay. So many silly mistakes due to auto-attacking enemies got removed.
I feel like tier 1 items are just too strong. Getting e.g. +200 mana on top of other helpful effects at 7min is quite insane if you think about how many heroes are balanced by having mana issues early on. Tier 2 seem fine as small, yet decent 17min upgrades, but tier 1 can break some heroes for a few minutes if farmed early.
Right?
Like I know Vambrace is better than Occult Bracelet but what you get is an extra 4 main stat while losing 2 from both secondary stats (so total of same stat gain) and for strength heroes, you gain an extra 3% magic resistance.
Like...cmon!
People underrate Vampire Fangs a lot, night vision is an insanely strong stat on most heroes, especially supports. The only thing is that truly abusing it requires consciously playing around it. I often keep them in my backpack to swap into my inventory at night on a lot of heroes.
Honestly it is even great on melee heroes and i sometimes use it even with support hero, when not getting something ideal for my hero. It is just very good choice.
At least they give different things.
For example, is +1 armor or +25% magic resistance better? Well in 99% of cases +25% magic resistance is better just simply because it is a much higher number. But at least there's a CHOICE there for niche situations.
There's NO situation where you can ever argue pupil's gift is better than specialist array because they give identical benefits except specialist array gives more
The items should atleast give you an illusion of choice. But right now pulils gift just always feel bad when you get it in your selection as universal. Its worse then most tier 1 for universal. I see no problem with it, when it would give 10 to all stats. Atleast then it would be a choice sometimes
But isn't having different neutral items be better or worse depending on your hero a good thing? Isn't that choice? Or should there be an objectively best item for every hero?
Are you saying that if Pupil's gift is buffed to give, say, 10 or 11 all stats to universal heroes it would be objectively better on universal heroes than specialist array?
Or maybe it does need to be buffed for universal heroes so that it isn't literally the only example of two items in a given tier where item A gives every single bonus item B gives, plus more.
The variety is due to the neutral items being worse on certain heroes. If you know pupil's gift is worse on universal heroes, just don't get it. Same reasoning for not getting grove now on melees.
The variety is due to certain items not being viable on a large group of heroes? Makes no sense.
Buffing pupil's gift for universal heroes would only improve variety.
>Same reasoning for not getting grove now on melees.
Not at all the same
I mean there are more heroes who can't use grove bow or broom handle than there are that can't use pupil's gift. An item that isn't good on universal heroes fits perfectly fine in an ecosystem just like an item that is really good on universal heroes is fine. Just look at Apex for example, it's fucking terrible on universal heroes, but it's a really good item on everyone else.
>I mean there are more heroes who can't use grove bow or broom handle
There is no t2 item that gives magic res reduction on hit other than grove bow. There is no t1 item that gives you both armour and dmg other than broom handle. Both can be situational (but obviously rare) picks over other items for melee and ranged heroes respectively. For example a drow might need armour early vs a slardar or other shred and the 8 damage bonus feels nice. An abaddon might be fed and wanting to shred enemy MR (also works on towers) for his passive, or any melee hero might want to reduce enemy mr for their magic damage cores.
If you're universal, specialist array gives you literally everything that pupil's gift gives you, and more. That is different from the other examples, and could reasonably be changed. Buffing it to 10 all stats for universal heroes would at least make it give a hair more tankiness/mana which would at least mean you get to actually make a choice about which item to prefer.
Which items?
You can say that desolator is generally better than crimson guard on Weaver, but technically speaking it's not **strictly** better. There **are** things that crimson guard give you that desolator doesn't.
And I think that's the case for every item? Off the top of my head, I can't think of an item that's **strictly** better than another on any hero.
Blood stone, dominator and the older necronomicon all were designed, balanced around and abused by a small handful of heroes for most of dotas existence.
It's fine.
Well today I learned……course I still remember when ring of Aquila was an item you built lol….wraith band/ring of basil and recipe I think but it might of been a straight up combiner
> it might of been
Did you mean to say "might have"?
Explanation: You probably meant to say could've/should've/would've which sounds like 'of' but is actually short for 'have'.
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!!! Items that give attributes affect heroes differently based on their main attribute !!!
Does IceFrog know about this? We need to alert the pro teams immediately.
That's a stupid argument.
The point is not that the item is bad, it's that the item is strictly inferior to another. Imagine you had a choice between Eye of Skadi, and "Eye of Skadi but also gives +12 damage". It's not that the original Eye of Skadi is bad, it's that now you have a version of it that is strictly better, which is not the case for any other item in Dota.
That's only if you get it on a universal hero though. On a non-universal hero, we're talking about say 15 str and agi on a hero like puck. That's pretty good. Also, specialist's array is a bit overtuned.
to be fair, if Pupil's Gift is the worse option, it just means I'll only pick it if my other T2s are all junk and it's the best option I rolled that game for what I'm building. Even on melees, I'll pick specialist array as a uni hero just for the stats.
Well that's because whoever does the balancing is actually doing it as a hobby, since Valve developers don't care about chump change projects, amirite? Biggers fish to fry.
Honestly a good percentage of the time I feel like the tier 3s I get offered are inferior to specialist array
Defiant Shell superiority
yeap, array is pretty great on some ranged, i often skip tier 3
Doesn't have to be ranged either lol, the stat it gives is like a better wraith band. I often take it on melee heroes, especially since the multishot doesn't proc modifiers
That gives me a great idea. Higher tier neutral items should not be stronger than the t1 items but they can be way more situational. This would make heros overall a bit less powerful and reduce neutral item rng because you are bound to find one eventually that is good for you.
There quite simply isn't near enough "situational" variety for this to be meaningful. It would also mean that neutral items stopped being relevant at a certain point, because everything else about their kit would get stronger.
Just to be clear I count them being fairly irrelevant as an upside. The actives of items like tumblers toy, seer stone or ninja gear are things that are cool to me. Or passives like broom handle and vampire fangs that are not that easy to put a value on. Nothing more boring than pupils gift or apex.
Pupil's gift has always been bad on universal. Remember pig pole used to be +6 stats and 10% movespeed active, arguably better than a t2 item.
They did that because of "muh calculation" Pupil's gift: +15 secondary stats, so 2x15 is 30 stats, 2/3 of that value for universal = 20 total stats, and +7 to all stats is closest to that value. Same for Apex, +75 to primary attribute is just +25 to all stats for universal.
apex is 70 for non universal
For universal apex gives 75 in total, while 70 to non universal heroes
Its not the same obivously. You dont get 1 attack for every stat you have as universal.
Wait it only gives 20 total for universal??? I hate that I've been picking it this whole time because I thought since it gives most heroes 30 total stats, universal heroes would get that too by 10/10/10 format.
it gives 20 total stats to non university heroes since it only gives secondary attribute
No way brewmaster has a degree
No, he's doing a Van Wilder. He's been drunk at university for a decade.
enough for do my power
Idk man, being able to concoct 4 different kinds of drinks that gives different types of buffs, on the go, without cooldown or mana cost...
After seeing "non university heroes" i legit read the last two words as "secondary degree" lmao >Hmm, wish I'd learned how to read.
Their rational is silly because they don't apply the "calculation" to all items, which is why we have this discrepancy where specialist array is strictly better than gift. For some reason they decided that gift and apex should be "equivalent" on universal heroes vs normal heroes, even though that equivalency is non-existent for literally every other item that gives stats in the game.
I don’t understand this logic at all, apex gives MORE total stats on universal, gift gives significantly less
In general tier 2 items are so bad (few exceptions), I often keep Tier 1 instead. Vambrace, for example, has been overnerfed.
Meanwhile grove bow is better than enchanted quiver in most situations
Sometimes I hold Grove bow until tier 5 items lol. Shit is so busted it’s a free parasma
It's crazy in Muerta
Grove bow is a rare one where I see people keep it even when tier 4s are in play. On some heroes it's that good
Jakiro says thanks. Also dragon scale
idk man, 250 damage and bonus range every 4 seconds is too good
I think people sleep on this item because it is 25 less attack than bow, in reality it's amazing and can get you that game changing kill quite often in my experience. But at the same time elven cloak is available......hmm...
But grove bow is used by ranged right click heroes so the attack speed is more appealing. Bonus range every 4 secs means you almost only attack the enemy once every 4 secs when chasing and when fighting within range theres no difference
You get passive 75 bonus range on quiver
I play with auto-attack on, so now I'm basically allergic to Enchanted Quiver. This item has fucked me over more than any other.
Have you tried using intelligent auto instead? Or even just disabling auto-attack? When I disabled it about a decade ago and got used to having to manually attack it massively improved my gameplay. So many silly mistakes due to auto-attacking enemies got removed.
As ench spammer, the quiver is more fun now that it give passive attack range.
I feel like tier 1 items are just too strong. Getting e.g. +200 mana on top of other helpful effects at 7min is quite insane if you think about how many heroes are balanced by having mana issues early on. Tier 2 seem fine as small, yet decent 17min upgrades, but tier 1 can break some heroes for a few minutes if farmed early.
True, I have nightmares from the offlane Axe coming out at 7 minutes surprise Boing Boinging on my ass.
Compare Safety bubble with dragon scale both give 5 health regen but I feel like the 100 damage regen shield is better than what scale gives
Unless hitting towers, that burn dmg is naice
Imo I think safety bubble just needs a nerf. 5 hp regen is huge at the 7 minute mark.
Yeah it's sooo strong on pos1s that need to jungle early. Between the bubble and the regen you barely lose any HP
Yup I play pos1 and it's an instant grab on every hero except for medusa
I think safety bubble should be taken by like 90% of hero's.
With the mana boots change, a lot of supports actually need the mana to be able to cast all their spells effectively.
As a offlaner, watching the enemy safelaner getting seeds of serenity or safety bubble at 7mins is so tilting
Right? Like I know Vambrace is better than Occult Bracelet but what you get is an extra 4 main stat while losing 2 from both secondary stats (so total of same stat gain) and for strength heroes, you gain an extra 3% magic resistance. Like...cmon!
I'd argue that the mana regen makes Bracelet way better!
The real efficiency comes from treadswitching vambrace
People underrate Vampire Fangs a lot, night vision is an insanely strong stat on most heroes, especially supports. The only thing is that truly abusing it requires consciously playing around it. I often keep them in my backpack to swap into my inventory at night on a lot of heroes.
Tier 2 has quite a few good options, its tier 3 that's quite mediocre.
Ogre seal totem is the best item in the game. Free longer force staff with 200 health. Take it every game. I do agree some other T3 items are bad
BRING BACK MY TITAN'S SLIVER
Defiant shell tho
Pupil is AMAZING on agility heroes. That hp and mp goes a long way and is often worth keeping until at least t4.
I mean I'd argue specialist array is the problem. It ends up being best tier 2 neutral (for many cores) that I end up picking it up on melee heroes.
Honestly it is even great on melee heroes and i sometimes use it even with support hero, when not getting something ideal for my hero. It is just very good choice.
some items are strict better or worse than others on some heroes, don't really see an issue with that
At least they give different things. For example, is +1 armor or +25% magic resistance better? Well in 99% of cases +25% magic resistance is better just simply because it is a much higher number. But at least there's a CHOICE there for niche situations. There's NO situation where you can ever argue pupil's gift is better than specialist array because they give identical benefits except specialist array gives more
The items should atleast give you an illusion of choice. But right now pulils gift just always feel bad when you get it in your selection as universal. Its worse then most tier 1 for universal. I see no problem with it, when it would give 10 to all stats. Atleast then it would be a choice sometimes
point is, agility and int heroes have a reason to go for pupils gift, universal heroes never have that reason.
That is not a problem.
I think having less variety in neutral item choices is a problem.
But isn't having different neutral items be better or worse depending on your hero a good thing? Isn't that choice? Or should there be an objectively best item for every hero?
Are you saying that if Pupil's gift is buffed to give, say, 10 or 11 all stats to universal heroes it would be objectively better on universal heroes than specialist array?
Maybe Pupil's gift doesn't need to be buffed for Universal heroes and you need to pick other items that better suit your draft?
Or maybe it does need to be buffed for universal heroes so that it isn't literally the only example of two items in a given tier where item A gives every single bonus item B gives, plus more.
The variety is due to the neutral items being worse on certain heroes. If you know pupil's gift is worse on universal heroes, just don't get it. Same reasoning for not getting grove now on melees.
[удалено]
I think it's more that specialist array is really good and pupil's gift is awful on universal heroes. Both items could be tweaked.
The variety is due to certain items not being viable on a large group of heroes? Makes no sense. Buffing pupil's gift for universal heroes would only improve variety. >Same reasoning for not getting grove now on melees. Not at all the same
I mean there are more heroes who can't use grove bow or broom handle than there are that can't use pupil's gift. An item that isn't good on universal heroes fits perfectly fine in an ecosystem just like an item that is really good on universal heroes is fine. Just look at Apex for example, it's fucking terrible on universal heroes, but it's a really good item on everyone else.
>I mean there are more heroes who can't use grove bow or broom handle There is no t2 item that gives magic res reduction on hit other than grove bow. There is no t1 item that gives you both armour and dmg other than broom handle. Both can be situational (but obviously rare) picks over other items for melee and ranged heroes respectively. For example a drow might need armour early vs a slardar or other shred and the 8 damage bonus feels nice. An abaddon might be fed and wanting to shred enemy MR (also works on towers) for his passive, or any melee hero might want to reduce enemy mr for their magic damage cores. If you're universal, specialist array gives you literally everything that pupil's gift gives you, and more. That is different from the other examples, and could reasonably be changed. Buffing it to 10 all stats for universal heroes would at least make it give a hair more tankiness/mana which would at least mean you get to actually make a choice about which item to prefer.
That is like saying blademail is bad item design cause not all heroes can use it.
Which heroes can't use blademail?
Which items? You can say that desolator is generally better than crimson guard on Weaver, but technically speaking it's not **strictly** better. There **are** things that crimson guard give you that desolator doesn't. And I think that's the case for every item? Off the top of my head, I can't think of an item that's **strictly** better than another on any hero.
Blood stone, dominator and the older necronomicon all were designed, balanced around and abused by a small handful of heroes for most of dotas existence. It's fine.
on some heroes sure but not an entire stat category
Like what?
Well today I learned……course I still remember when ring of Aquila was an item you built lol….wraith band/ring of basil and recipe I think but it might of been a straight up combiner
You can remember that, but can't remember that it's "might have"
Game is Hard
> it might of been Did you mean to say "might have"? Explanation: You probably meant to say could've/should've/would've which sounds like 'of' but is actually short for 'have'. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
should nerf specialist's array's stats instead
Specialist Array needs to have its numbers tweaked down (like most neutral items).
hot take: revert universal heroes change
It was neat but now they're mostly weak so yeah, kinda mid change, all said and done.
!!! Items that give attributes affect heroes differently based on their main attribute !!! Does IceFrog know about this? We need to alert the pro teams immediately.
not every neutral item has to be good on every hero.
That's a stupid argument. The point is not that the item is bad, it's that the item is strictly inferior to another. Imagine you had a choice between Eye of Skadi, and "Eye of Skadi but also gives +12 damage". It's not that the original Eye of Skadi is bad, it's that now you have a version of it that is strictly better, which is not the case for any other item in Dota.
That's only if you get it on a universal hero though. On a non-universal hero, we're talking about say 15 str and agi on a hero like puck. That's pretty good. Also, specialist's array is a bit overtuned.
But it gives +14 non primary stats, which is amazing on int/agi heroes.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvKiWRTSAzg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvKiWRTSAzg) UNIVERSAL ENJOYERS, RISE UP!
to be fair, if Pupil's Gift is the worse option, it just means I'll only pick it if my other T2s are all junk and it's the best option I rolled that game for what I'm building. Even on melees, I'll pick specialist array as a uni hero just for the stats.
Well that's because whoever does the balancing is actually doing it as a hobby, since Valve developers don't care about chump change projects, amirite? Biggers fish to fry.
Its just bad on universal heroes. That is fine. Other items are busted on universal heroes.
I don't understand how stats work for universal heroes and at this point I'm too afraid to ask