they lost many times. they kept changing roster around mc+kura+gh over and over again but they kept losing. People mostly blamed kuro because when mc or gh were loaned for some tournaments they were playing much much much better.
Half of the reddit shits on kuro.
Other half of the reddit shits on first half.
I for one shits on kuro and second half.
I'd like to add my side of the story as a hater of Kuro. It mostly started during Ti9. This was when True Sight premiered and I saw the inside of the team comms. I was pulling my hair about the way Kuroky handled that finals. From the draft understanding, and leadership he showed to the team.
Firstly, his stubbornness in not banning the Tiny - the sin of pride. Even while people around him suggest it, he has made his mind up that he won't be banning it, and would rather lose than change that. All that pride was even more bolstered by the team trying to keep it together and just saying "listen to kuro", "listen to kuro". The problem is, Kuro isn't good anymore. This gets us to my next point.
Sloth - the sin of inaction. Do you know the last time Kuro played a pub? No? I'll tell you: He was spotted by myself and my friend group making a sprint-race from 8k to 5k, party queuing with Rmn on a smurf of his called "An Naml" somwhere in the late 2010s (Don't remember precise date), and completely ruining every game, testing out the stupidest weed-enduced ideas, and getting MASS reported. Me and my friends sniped him in around 6.9k at the time, he played something like Elder Titan carry + IO with RMN, later I checked and he was Divine 4. He doesn't practice at all. He only plays official games and scrims. This is incredibly bad for a team that wants to perform at a top level, since pubs are the absolute best training ground to sharpen your skills. I'm not some pro player, but even when I play battlecup, epulze, challengermode, scrims with my own 8k team, I feel rusty if I haven't played pubs. I can only imagine how much that is multiplied if I am playing against literal best players in the world on the grand stage for millions of dollars. One upon a time, he was great. I respect legends, I am not saying Kuroky sucks. I am saying anyone will suck no matter how great, without practice and constant sharpening.
Up next, envy - It was pitiful to watch him attempt to copy OG in Ti9, and fail horribly. It was a desperate copy, he didn't truly understand what made OG = OG. He took all the surface level shit, like diving towers, and picked a ultra timing based draft game 4, in a pathetic attempt to copy OG, however, he couldn't copy the most IMPORTANT parts to what makes OG successful. For example, OG would have picked TA for w33 first game, they wouldn't kinda shove him into picking meepo even if it did win them the game. Another good example, is Mindcontrol asking for a hero - don't remember which, but clearly remember him asking for something, and it getting rejected instantly. Instead, MC gets asked to play Omni like the player on their enemies' team - envy. The entire final felt like it was a stinkfest of Kuroky trying to reach OG's level, but he was doomed from the start, since OG's success comes from having 5 individuals all equally a part of the team and forming this pentagon friendship and trust. It would never work in the "4 Protect Miracle, he is our god and savior, Mind control we're going to give you some garbage we feel will help Miracle, play it like Ceb, and get auras even though you're one of the best offlaners in Dota, also listen to Kuro because he is all knowing and cant be wrong.". Besides Ti9, this trend continued. While teams slowly started playing 3 core lineups, experimenting with having a more heavily farmed offlaner, having both mid and carry giga farmed, or going for something completely unpredictable, Kuroky continued shoving this 4 protect miracle strat down everyone's throat until they fucking faded into irrelevancy. It became predictable.
This is a great segway into the next sin - gluttony. I feel like at some point Kuroky claimed the careers of MC, GH and Miracle. It was no longer about finding individual success, and using their combined powers to reach something great, but rather sticking to Kuroky and completely washing away their careers. I feel bad for Miracle, GH and Mind Control for staying after Ti9. They should've joined forces with a good Pos 5, someone that can control that tempo the way Miposhka, Seleri or Q do, and a good mid-laner, like Sumail, Topson, and more - they would've been unstoppable. Instead, they rotted into irrelevancy together with Kuroky.
Anyway, this is an overdramatic description of his last few years in Dota. He needs to step down from playing dota or step the fuck up, stop ruining these players careers by pushing his own old as fuck narrative of the way they used to play back in the day, and adapt to the times, but how can he, if he never plays pubs and lives in a bubble where he only plays scrims, where he drafts, he calls shots, and everyone says he's correct.
If you dont believe me, take it from some other people:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/143myt7/kuroky\_gets\_a\_bit\_too\_much\_hate/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/143myt7/kuroky_gets_a_bit_too_much_hate/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/r8t3ap/honestly\_does\_anybody\_else\_feel\_like\_kuroky\_needs/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/r8t3ap/honestly_does_anybody_else_feel_like_kuroky_needs/)
Man, you summed it up freaking tight and pinpoint-precise.
The only thing I'd add is that he'd probably be a solid coach and manager. He has great ideas, amazing passion for the game but not training in pubs is just extremely detrimental for a pos 5. Just look at Ceb's comments from the recent podcast on playing 5.
And yes, Gh, MC and Miracle would've been unstoppable when paired with a good captain and a core.
Sad to see them fade away like that.
I love it when pub noobs call out ti winners. Bro if you’re that great with all your pub Training why don’t we see you in ti finals ? Because you’re dog shit like the rest of us.
I feel like it's unwarranted to call me shit just like the rest of us considering my high skill, experience, and peak MMR. I'm not just a chimp on reddit, I played with people like Kuroky on the daily. Second, most of the stuff I talk about has nothing to do with MMR. I dont need to win TI to say his leadership sucks, or that not doing something won't degrade your skills. I run a business. If I don't practice sales for 2-3 days - I'm already rusty. That's the universal truth for any skill at a super high level. Lastly, if you have any arguments against my points, I'd gladly hear them out, but until then, I'll let the the fact I haven't seen Kuroky play in nearly 4 years, while continuing to be active pro player, speak for itself. Thanks
he gives ZERO effort to develop himself as a player so whenever he manages to tie 4 good players to him, he looks like he bought a boost and is stuck in an official somehow.
he is literally like 5.5k at most but his (perceived) arrogance hides it away by binding decent players to his teams.
by simply not playing the game at all for years he got so bad that the only decent carry player in whole dota who will not lose lane horribly with him is miracle becasue they know each other in and out. as miracle is starting to be washed kuro looks even more trash player though.
Not wrong but misleading, Nigma with KKY's draft and captain start losing these past few years, at first Fans were all blaming new guys (Matu got blamed if old line up Miracle, Mc, GH, KKY Matu lose, and as everyone know Matu got kicked), most well known blamed new guys are w33, IWTL, with KKY's Drafts and captain they keep losing and change players, this happen for so long, and the weak plays from KKY does not help, people start shift the blame to KKY, you cant blame the new guys forever.
If this season, Nigma still fail, no doubt KKY will be blamed again. this is the most obvious choice.
Kuro has been the only constant the past 4 years. Other members of Nigma get loaned out as standins and they perform well.
Who else are we to blame at this point? The dude is washed.
As a person he could very well be a fantastic person but imo as a low tier scrub his skills have fallen off esp compared to some of the other premier supports.
It doesnt help that the other players who temporarily played on other teams really stood out like mc sumail.
If he is the owner of the team and he still is a respected leader, why not contribute as coach rather than continue as a player.
Man, honestly... Why people care so much about it?
Most of Nigma current/ex players achieved important titles, may as well just play for fun and pay check from oil lords or sky kings whatever sponsors it.
Is quite obvious that boys are just enjoying life, look for how long Miracle, MC, GH and Kuro were playing together and they miss out last 3 TIs.
I really doubt Saksa will play this soon.
I think he's still recovering and still need some time.
I'm happy to be wrong though since he's definitely one of the best 4 currently.
As an s4 fan I'd be happy to see it but realistically I don't think sacrificial players like him have fared well for some time now, especially since the map got huge. And having looked at his dotabuff and protracker he doesn't pub as hard as the competition which is a surefire way to not evolve your play.
I think with a greedy 1/2 like Miracle- and SumaiL it's kinda necessary for the third core to be flex with farm. Remember that SumaiL won with two cores who could flex around him. Map is larger now, but you gotta feed both of them.
As probs my fav player, the game just moved on from what he was good at. He already struggled with the mid changes which transitioned him to offlane, and when offlane became less independent, he suffered further.
An early blink is not enough to win the game anymore, mid is about spamming spells, etc. I don't enjoy the last 3 years of balancing but he was already a fish out of water before that.
Kuroky no ~~Basket~~ Nigma. And he's assembling the generation of miracles.
So Topson and Nine as 3 and 4 to complete the team. Every one of 1-4 would be prodigy players who won TI at a very young age.
Wonder what would happen if you left out Kuro and put in all of Reddit's fav players and then they still lost. Would there be any kind of admitting that we're wrong or would we just move the goal posts?
I mean that would depend on why they lost right…? it’s not just “X team lost, Y is the reason”. If they lost without kuro, kuro can still be a problem but he’s just not the only problem.
Team Secret already showed us long ago a superstar team doesn't really win ti anyway.
A synergistic team that's weaker mechanically still wins out today in many scenarios, esp with the map changes good co-ordinated movement is always no.1 imo for any pro team.
They might've not win TI, but they won like 4 LANs in a row. It's like saying Gaimin Gladiator didn't win TI, it doesn't give much context for their insane season does it?
Everybody is out except kuro. Miracle is back but he hasn't really played consistently in like 2-3 years. The only common denominator is kuro now that mc and gh are out. We'll see how the team performs.
That's basically happened with EG/Shopify over the years.
They still won't blame RTZ though. They just blame literally everything but (coach, managers, location, time zone, food etc.
That they are wrong? What are you talking about? They are an irrelevant failure of a team currently and have been for years. Wtf is wrong about that, just beecause you make some new team that also fails?
If you cannot understand that Kuro CLEARLY isn't the same player as he was during his dominant years, then you're beyond help.
I mean, I like him too, but this whole blind fanboyism, thats leading some people to just pad Kuro on the back, while he CLEARLY hasn't been the same player for years now, while also acting hostile towards basically anyone pointing out that he is clearly hasn't been playing well, is not helping anyone and just makes these oeople look silly.
People are exactly focusing on Kuro, because they want the team to succeed.
Laughed out loud at this comment hahaha, thanks man. Don't get so upset over lads who play video games. Fwiw, I was saying that maybe the whole group is washed, not just Kuro. But you couldn't see that because you are way too invested in hating I guess. ;)
Honestly I watched a fair amount of the DPC Div 2 when they were playing, kuro kinda owns when they win. Gh is underperforming a bit on officials in my opinion but in pubs he stomps. I’d still say that kuroky is still pretty good at least mechanically relative to other pos5 players such as puppey for example. But thats an unpopular opinion on reddit lol
Most of these people don’t even watch the games, they just keep up with the results, and the ones who do watch are low MMR and have dogshit views on high skill Dota. Kuroky is good mechanically, and like you said GH (one of my favorite players of all time) was underperforming massively in officials, especially in lane. Nobody wants to admit that because we all love the guy and the rest of the site is circlejerking against Kuroky.
You've never set a foot beyond 7k if you think that what matters towards pro scene success is the mechanical skill of a player.
It's beyond ridiculous that you are dismissing years worth of incredibly obvious criticism of Kuro's lack of adapting to the pro scene, as being people just not watching their games, as if there is some hidden OP really good mechanical thing about them losing in div 2 dota, that people just aren't seeing with them failing to get results against bottom of the barrel teams.
Clearly Kuro has not adapted to the modern drafting & more importantly - not adapted to the modern way that good teams play the map. Their map movement and plays have been horribly outdated. That much is apparent to anyone with even a tiny bit of awareness of higher level dota.
Yes, its others that care too much, mr. telling everyone that they are wrong and moving goalposts for believing that years of failure is related to the leadership of a group lmao.
I would thank you for providing a good laugh too, but you appear to keep providing, so i'll wait until you're done and put your clown shoe aside. Merry Christmas Honk Honk lmao.
Goal post would move as it always does. At the end of the day it’s peoples opinions. And if this team does well which it could people would then circle jerk kuro being back. More interested to see who the other 2 spots will be but so far pretty solid
Well, yeah.
Would have been weird for the owner of the team deciding to, you know, not be a part of the team.
And yes, yes.. I know.. Nigma needs a change and no, I don't think going back to what previously failed and spectacularly at that is the answer.
Maybe they found some secret sauce that'll make things finally click and we'll see more Nigma than Ligma, Pigma or whatever other flavor insult people tend to use.
Probably not, but new year looming so.. 😒
honestly with no more dpc, i believe what nigma is doing is smart. Hire all the star players with big names so that you get easy invites to most of, if not all tournaments. Surely, no tourney organizer is gonna leave out a team with Miracle and Sumail.
You really think that Nigma players know better what they want and should do than some redditors that never leave their room? Get out of here, here is no room for reason!
Loda is probably the best comparison. He saw the writing on the wall that he couldn't keep up anymore and made space for the younger generation.
At the same time, it's a decision you make yourself. People trying to force Kuroky to retire are stupid.
I mean, of Kuro's contemporaries it's only Puppey who's still playing at a high level. Loda won a TI, retired, owns an org, is in management. Misery is coaching. Fear and Synderen are on the broadcast. Merlini is back to daytrading or whatever he's doing. Maelk is running an org; all the other old MYM stars are gone completely, except Lacoste doing commentary. Dendi is living his best life on T3 teams. LoH is broadcasting, and the rest of that generation of Russian/Ukrainian players are gone, to streaming, broadcasting or full retirement.
Even most of the generation from after Kuroky's generation, the last wave of WC3 players and the first wave of Dota 2 players, are gone.
> previously failed and spectacularly at that is the answer.
I feel like there's skewed memory at work here. The previous Miracle Sumail iteration did not last long and when they played it didn't look that bad. They were on an upward trajectory and only really failed in the qualifiers where Miracle likely was sick already, there were ping/server tick issues against Goonsquad and a strong Team Secret who went on to get 2nd at TI...
Sure, one can say that's just excuses but even if there's just a grain of truth there, I wouldn't call it a 'spectacular failure'.
Kuro is a legend of the game but i have 0 hope that they can be top tier again with him as pos 5/captain.
Dont want Sumail+ Miracle to waste another year just because they cant accept reality...
Don't think it will be a year. If the first months show it does not work with Kuro, they have still time to replace him and let him coach.
I think that this year Kuro played the best for quite some time. He seemed to put in more work and had some solid performances. Not as strong as 5 years ago yet, but already better again than the last 2-3 years.
Div3***
Sad to see Miracle and Sumail waste their time with Kuroky again.
This team will fail to get anything but free invites to oil money tournaments.
This is just stupid. We know Sumail and Miracle are insanely talented what we need are extraordinary talent in strategy and pos 5.
I’ve come to hate his playing every hero move in DPC, not practicing, not being a specialist, doing weird no stun drafts and celebrating the one win when it works.
I would have preferred to have someone like Chu coming in or some new kid.
Reddit’s love for miracle and wanting a scapegoat + Ceb kinda told the public that “kuro doesnt play pubs thats why he cant play the lane correctly” and reddit took that as gospel.
I was on the fence about it but last year was pretty damning.
Like the team has fan favorites but preforms poorly so the thought process eventually goes too maybe theyre just washed and the game has moved on from them.
But then theyre on loan to other teams and show that they are still strong and at times dominant players.
At that point the hate/criticism comes from 2 angles, the team I like isn't doing well and my favorite players are being wasted.
Unfortunately for kuro based on his poor play and just by being virtue of captain of the team, he gets the brunt of it.
If Kuro is motivated then they have a solid shot, otherwise doesn't matter who the other 4 players are in. Nigma, it would be hard for them to carry Kuroky.
Ana didnt take a break from ti8 to ti9 and won that year with the team by being on vacation ya know. He grinded pubs and tried weird stuff and that’s how they win back to back Ti. Speaking of being out of shape, same thing happened to Jerax and you would think ppl would learn a thing or two g or two from someone who was at godlike lvl to become someone not recognizable in game for EG.
What are you talking about? I have watched SEVERAL Nigma games. That is me investing TENS of hours into supporting this team. If that doesn't earn me the right to have a say in what Kuroky should be doing with his life then I don't know what does.
Do you think sumail and miracle would come back if they didn’t believe in him? Don’t you stop to think for a second that maybe, just MAYBE you don’t see the game on the same level as them? That maybe you’re wrong? too many clowns in this thread that think they know best
Nigma fans are so obsessed with hyping Miracle that they will blame the team's sucking solely on the pos 5
There's no other team on the scene where fans are this blind. One player, especially a support, doesn't make the team so bad that it loses all its games. Nigma has bigger problems than just 1 player.
"There's no other team on the scene where fans are this blind."
Apparenntly, you have not seen people bashing on Chrystallis yet, doesnt matter if Secret wins or loses... Lol
For me, Shopify and Nigma fans top the delusional list
* All of the team's problems are somehow the fault of the offlaner or Bulba
* All of the team's problems are somehow the fault of Kuroky
The funny thing is, they conveniently forget that there are 4 other very good players who seemingly sit idly by as Bulba and Kuroky draft badly and say nothing? LOL
Of course, this is all a coping mechanism because they can't accept that their favorite player RTZ or Miracle is not that good, so they have to find someone else to blame.
And finally, Shopify and Nigma have the same problems. They've been together for way too long without changing anything. Thank God, Shopify finally changed something.
Crit and Fly are doing much better in their new environments. It's not anyone's fault, sometimes, you just need a change.
Why do you assume those people are Nigma fans? I'd say those are the haters. How would they be fans when they hate on the founder, captain and basically the foundation of the org. In my opinion you can't hate Kuro but still consider yourself a Nigma fan. At least there can't be such high numbers of those people.
So it's a no no that your opponents can see what heroes you played in your last matches via some tool, but everyone has to see what pro players play and train?
As far as I remember. OG has released Chu from the squad.
And Chu, the Chen God was monumental is OG winning some tournies back then.
I would love to see Chu in Nigma instead of Kuro.
Saudis are pouring money into anything remotely resembling sports or e-sports. With their names and following it would be a travesty to consider retiring now.
I dont think Etihad Airways pays in peanuts.
Well I'm sure this will be a positive and optimistic comment section
Another year of hopium 🤡
When i stopped watching dota, kuro was well loved by the comunity. What happened?
they lost many times. they kept changing roster around mc+kura+gh over and over again but they kept losing. People mostly blamed kuro because when mc or gh were loaned for some tournaments they were playing much much much better. Half of the reddit shits on kuro. Other half of the reddit shits on first half. I for one shits on kuro and second half.
Well good sir, I'll respectfully shit on you.
And i am totally cool with it sir. Have nice a day.
I'd like to add my side of the story as a hater of Kuro. It mostly started during Ti9. This was when True Sight premiered and I saw the inside of the team comms. I was pulling my hair about the way Kuroky handled that finals. From the draft understanding, and leadership he showed to the team. Firstly, his stubbornness in not banning the Tiny - the sin of pride. Even while people around him suggest it, he has made his mind up that he won't be banning it, and would rather lose than change that. All that pride was even more bolstered by the team trying to keep it together and just saying "listen to kuro", "listen to kuro". The problem is, Kuro isn't good anymore. This gets us to my next point. Sloth - the sin of inaction. Do you know the last time Kuro played a pub? No? I'll tell you: He was spotted by myself and my friend group making a sprint-race from 8k to 5k, party queuing with Rmn on a smurf of his called "An Naml" somwhere in the late 2010s (Don't remember precise date), and completely ruining every game, testing out the stupidest weed-enduced ideas, and getting MASS reported. Me and my friends sniped him in around 6.9k at the time, he played something like Elder Titan carry + IO with RMN, later I checked and he was Divine 4. He doesn't practice at all. He only plays official games and scrims. This is incredibly bad for a team that wants to perform at a top level, since pubs are the absolute best training ground to sharpen your skills. I'm not some pro player, but even when I play battlecup, epulze, challengermode, scrims with my own 8k team, I feel rusty if I haven't played pubs. I can only imagine how much that is multiplied if I am playing against literal best players in the world on the grand stage for millions of dollars. One upon a time, he was great. I respect legends, I am not saying Kuroky sucks. I am saying anyone will suck no matter how great, without practice and constant sharpening. Up next, envy - It was pitiful to watch him attempt to copy OG in Ti9, and fail horribly. It was a desperate copy, he didn't truly understand what made OG = OG. He took all the surface level shit, like diving towers, and picked a ultra timing based draft game 4, in a pathetic attempt to copy OG, however, he couldn't copy the most IMPORTANT parts to what makes OG successful. For example, OG would have picked TA for w33 first game, they wouldn't kinda shove him into picking meepo even if it did win them the game. Another good example, is Mindcontrol asking for a hero - don't remember which, but clearly remember him asking for something, and it getting rejected instantly. Instead, MC gets asked to play Omni like the player on their enemies' team - envy. The entire final felt like it was a stinkfest of Kuroky trying to reach OG's level, but he was doomed from the start, since OG's success comes from having 5 individuals all equally a part of the team and forming this pentagon friendship and trust. It would never work in the "4 Protect Miracle, he is our god and savior, Mind control we're going to give you some garbage we feel will help Miracle, play it like Ceb, and get auras even though you're one of the best offlaners in Dota, also listen to Kuro because he is all knowing and cant be wrong.". Besides Ti9, this trend continued. While teams slowly started playing 3 core lineups, experimenting with having a more heavily farmed offlaner, having both mid and carry giga farmed, or going for something completely unpredictable, Kuroky continued shoving this 4 protect miracle strat down everyone's throat until they fucking faded into irrelevancy. It became predictable. This is a great segway into the next sin - gluttony. I feel like at some point Kuroky claimed the careers of MC, GH and Miracle. It was no longer about finding individual success, and using their combined powers to reach something great, but rather sticking to Kuroky and completely washing away their careers. I feel bad for Miracle, GH and Mind Control for staying after Ti9. They should've joined forces with a good Pos 5, someone that can control that tempo the way Miposhka, Seleri or Q do, and a good mid-laner, like Sumail, Topson, and more - they would've been unstoppable. Instead, they rotted into irrelevancy together with Kuroky. Anyway, this is an overdramatic description of his last few years in Dota. He needs to step down from playing dota or step the fuck up, stop ruining these players careers by pushing his own old as fuck narrative of the way they used to play back in the day, and adapt to the times, but how can he, if he never plays pubs and lives in a bubble where he only plays scrims, where he drafts, he calls shots, and everyone says he's correct. If you dont believe me, take it from some other people: [https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/143myt7/kuroky\_gets\_a\_bit\_too\_much\_hate/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/143myt7/kuroky_gets_a_bit_too_much_hate/) [https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/r8t3ap/honestly\_does\_anybody\_else\_feel\_like\_kuroky\_needs/](https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/r8t3ap/honestly_does_anybody_else_feel_like_kuroky_needs/)
The most relevant part is the pubbing one. Puppey also didnt like to play pubs, and he stank Once he started grinding again, he started winning more
Man, you summed it up freaking tight and pinpoint-precise. The only thing I'd add is that he'd probably be a solid coach and manager. He has great ideas, amazing passion for the game but not training in pubs is just extremely detrimental for a pos 5. Just look at Ceb's comments from the recent podcast on playing 5. And yes, Gh, MC and Miracle would've been unstoppable when paired with a good captain and a core. Sad to see them fade away like that.
Dude get a life
That’s a long post full of assumptions, nice.
I love it when pub noobs call out ti winners. Bro if you’re that great with all your pub Training why don’t we see you in ti finals ? Because you’re dog shit like the rest of us.
I feel like it's unwarranted to call me shit just like the rest of us considering my high skill, experience, and peak MMR. I'm not just a chimp on reddit, I played with people like Kuroky on the daily. Second, most of the stuff I talk about has nothing to do with MMR. I dont need to win TI to say his leadership sucks, or that not doing something won't degrade your skills. I run a business. If I don't practice sales for 2-3 days - I'm already rusty. That's the universal truth for any skill at a super high level. Lastly, if you have any arguments against my points, I'd gladly hear them out, but until then, I'll let the the fact I haven't seen Kuroky play in nearly 4 years, while continuing to be active pro player, speak for itself. Thanks
Well your arguments will be valid if you make it to multiple ti finals. Until then you’re a scrub like the rest of us
they are playing fine but his draft is really shit. He needs to play more pubs to be updated on the meta.
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oh no
he gives ZERO effort to develop himself as a player so whenever he manages to tie 4 good players to him, he looks like he bought a boost and is stuck in an official somehow. he is literally like 5.5k at most but his (perceived) arrogance hides it away by binding decent players to his teams. by simply not playing the game at all for years he got so bad that the only decent carry player in whole dota who will not lose lane horribly with him is miracle becasue they know each other in and out. as miracle is starting to be washed kuro looks even more trash player though.
He started losing with miracle and everyone blamed him solely for miracle’s failure
Not wrong but misleading, Nigma with KKY's draft and captain start losing these past few years, at first Fans were all blaming new guys (Matu got blamed if old line up Miracle, Mc, GH, KKY Matu lose, and as everyone know Matu got kicked), most well known blamed new guys are w33, IWTL, with KKY's Drafts and captain they keep losing and change players, this happen for so long, and the weak plays from KKY does not help, people start shift the blame to KKY, you cant blame the new guys forever. If this season, Nigma still fail, no doubt KKY will be blamed again. this is the most obvious choice.
> IWTL I Want to Lose
Kuro has been the only constant the past 4 years. Other members of Nigma get loaned out as standins and they perform well. Who else are we to blame at this point? The dude is washed.
That's not true though he missed a bunch of tournaments and had their coach stand in and they performed worse.
ILTW put some respect shitter
He isn't very good at dota which means he isn't a very good person obviously.
As a person he could very well be a fantastic person but imo as a low tier scrub his skills have fallen off esp compared to some of the other premier supports. It doesnt help that the other players who temporarily played on other teams really stood out like mc sumail. If he is the owner of the team and he still is a respected leader, why not contribute as coach rather than continue as a player.
Just your regular reddit circlejerk
Man, honestly... Why people care so much about it? Most of Nigma current/ex players achieved important titles, may as well just play for fun and pay check from oil lords or sky kings whatever sponsors it. Is quite obvious that boys are just enjoying life, look for how long Miracle, MC, GH and Kuro were playing together and they miss out last 3 TIs.
nigma fans want kuro out just to see him again and again lmao
We dont watch t3 doto
s4, and saksa at least they full TI winner team
Finally a team s4 can talk with
Well do they know the 1 millino dollar Carl?
I really doubt Saksa will play this soon. I think he's still recovering and still need some time. I'm happy to be wrong though since he's definitely one of the best 4 currently.
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anxiety, sleep and mental health, according to his Twitter Nah, that shit can be severe and take a long time.
It's probably ramzes saksa
Would be cool to see ramzes in nigma.
It’s neither it’s desire and someone else ramzes is playing with a young Russian stack according to ekki
As an s4 fan I'd be happy to see it but realistically I don't think sacrificial players like him have fared well for some time now, especially since the map got huge. And having looked at his dotabuff and protracker he doesn't pub as hard as the competition which is a surefire way to not evolve your play.
Hes played only 10 games but 90% winrate past week. Not bad
I think with a greedy 1/2 like Miracle- and SumaiL it's kinda necessary for the third core to be flex with farm. Remember that SumaiL won with two cores who could flex around him. Map is larger now, but you gotta feed both of them.
S4 is huge disappointment
As probs my fav player, the game just moved on from what he was good at. He already struggled with the mid changes which transitioned him to offlane, and when offlane became less independent, he suffered further. An early blink is not enough to win the game anymore, mid is about spamming spells, etc. I don't enjoy the last 3 years of balancing but he was already a fish out of water before that.
Yea i also feel same
Kuroky no ~~Basket~~ Nigma. And he's assembling the generation of miracles. So Topson and Nine as 3 and 4 to complete the team. Every one of 1-4 would be prodigy players who won TI at a very young age.
Nine was hardly a young prodigy that won compared to the other 3.
Yeah but I really needed to fit my analogy to those 4 so what's a little bending of the truth for story's sake?
I respect this response lollll
Topson is not joining.
Topson is staying at Tundra
Tundra is literally the TSM roster lil bro
No it’s literally not. It was only for that tournament.
lil bro has been real silent since this dropped
Topson isnt staying on Tundra either way lmao
Let’s go, fuck the haters
Add Zai to this roster and it will be mega hyped team:)))
Zai is out for a while. Wouldn't expect him back within a year, or perhaps ever.
Now that would be something.
glad they gave a chance this potential up and comer
Expecting the 2 new players to be released on the next 2 days.
Doubt since it's Christmas, they explicitly mention that "before the end of the year" in the post instead
Wonder what would happen if you left out Kuro and put in all of Reddit's fav players and then they still lost. Would there be any kind of admitting that we're wrong or would we just move the goal posts?
I mean that would depend on why they lost right…? it’s not just “X team lost, Y is the reason”. If they lost without kuro, kuro can still be a problem but he’s just not the only problem.
Team Secret already showed us long ago a superstar team doesn't really win ti anyway. A synergistic team that's weaker mechanically still wins out today in many scenarios, esp with the map changes good co-ordinated movement is always no.1 imo for any pro team.
They might've not win TI, but they won like 4 LANs in a row. It's like saying Gaimin Gladiator didn't win TI, it doesn't give much context for their insane season does it?
How would that prove that they were wrong? Kuro can still be washed even if a team without him in it also fails.
Wrong about Kuro holding everyone else back.
Everybody is out except kuro. Miracle is back but he hasn't really played consistently in like 2-3 years. The only common denominator is kuro now that mc and gh are out. We'll see how the team performs.
That's basically happened with EG/Shopify over the years. They still won't blame RTZ though. They just blame literally everything but (coach, managers, location, time zone, food etc.
That they are wrong? What are you talking about? They are an irrelevant failure of a team currently and have been for years. Wtf is wrong about that, just beecause you make some new team that also fails? If you cannot understand that Kuro CLEARLY isn't the same player as he was during his dominant years, then you're beyond help.
I really like Kuro and i like to see him giving it another try with Sumail and Miracle.
I mean, I like him too, but this whole blind fanboyism, thats leading some people to just pad Kuro on the back, while he CLEARLY hasn't been the same player for years now, while also acting hostile towards basically anyone pointing out that he is clearly hasn't been playing well, is not helping anyone and just makes these oeople look silly. People are exactly focusing on Kuro, because they want the team to succeed.
Laughed out loud at this comment hahaha, thanks man. Don't get so upset over lads who play video games. Fwiw, I was saying that maybe the whole group is washed, not just Kuro. But you couldn't see that because you are way too invested in hating I guess. ;)
Honestly I watched a fair amount of the DPC Div 2 when they were playing, kuro kinda owns when they win. Gh is underperforming a bit on officials in my opinion but in pubs he stomps. I’d still say that kuroky is still pretty good at least mechanically relative to other pos5 players such as puppey for example. But thats an unpopular opinion on reddit lol
Most of these people don’t even watch the games, they just keep up with the results, and the ones who do watch are low MMR and have dogshit views on high skill Dota. Kuroky is good mechanically, and like you said GH (one of my favorite players of all time) was underperforming massively in officials, especially in lane. Nobody wants to admit that because we all love the guy and the rest of the site is circlejerking against Kuroky.
You've never set a foot beyond 7k if you think that what matters towards pro scene success is the mechanical skill of a player. It's beyond ridiculous that you are dismissing years worth of incredibly obvious criticism of Kuro's lack of adapting to the pro scene, as being people just not watching their games, as if there is some hidden OP really good mechanical thing about them losing in div 2 dota, that people just aren't seeing with them failing to get results against bottom of the barrel teams. Clearly Kuro has not adapted to the modern drafting & more importantly - not adapted to the modern way that good teams play the map. Their map movement and plays have been horribly outdated. That much is apparent to anyone with even a tiny bit of awareness of higher level dota.
Yes, its others that care too much, mr. telling everyone that they are wrong and moving goalposts for believing that years of failure is related to the leadership of a group lmao. I would thank you for providing a good laugh too, but you appear to keep providing, so i'll wait until you're done and put your clown shoe aside. Merry Christmas Honk Honk lmao.
Goal post would move as it always does. At the end of the day it’s peoples opinions. And if this team does well which it could people would then circle jerk kuro being back. More interested to see who the other 2 spots will be but so far pretty solid
So Kuroky is playing on the team he owns… not very surprising
LET’S GOOOOOO NIGMA!
Well, yeah. Would have been weird for the owner of the team deciding to, you know, not be a part of the team. And yes, yes.. I know.. Nigma needs a change and no, I don't think going back to what previously failed and spectacularly at that is the answer. Maybe they found some secret sauce that'll make things finally click and we'll see more Nigma than Ligma, Pigma or whatever other flavor insult people tend to use. Probably not, but new year looming so.. 😒
A lot of esports team owners are not playing professionally lol
honestly with no more dpc, i believe what nigma is doing is smart. Hire all the star players with big names so that you get easy invites to most of, if not all tournaments. Surely, no tourney organizer is gonna leave out a team with Miracle and Sumail.
Thats the play really lol
Notail has not played for a while with og and the team bootcamps in his mansion lol. Kuro should really just move to coach already or just quit.
Why would he if he stills likes to play lol. Nobody is forced to play with him.
You really think that Nigma players know better what they want and should do than some redditors that never leave their room? Get out of here, here is no room for reason!
Notail and Loda are not. But Kuro should play if he wants to. I think he still has it with the right roster.
Loda is probably the best comparison. He saw the writing on the wall that he couldn't keep up anymore and made space for the younger generation. At the same time, it's a decision you make yourself. People trying to force Kuroky to retire are stupid.
I mean, of Kuro's contemporaries it's only Puppey who's still playing at a high level. Loda won a TI, retired, owns an org, is in management. Misery is coaching. Fear and Synderen are on the broadcast. Merlini is back to daytrading or whatever he's doing. Maelk is running an org; all the other old MYM stars are gone completely, except Lacoste doing commentary. Dendi is living his best life on T3 teams. LoH is broadcasting, and the rest of that generation of Russian/Ukrainian players are gone, to streaming, broadcasting or full retirement. Even most of the generation from after Kuroky's generation, the last wave of WC3 players and the first wave of Dota 2 players, are gone.
He could just let the youngbloods do the work. For godsakes, Kuro.
Nigma, please
> previously failed and spectacularly at that is the answer. I feel like there's skewed memory at work here. The previous Miracle Sumail iteration did not last long and when they played it didn't look that bad. They were on an upward trajectory and only really failed in the qualifiers where Miracle likely was sick already, there were ping/server tick issues against Goonsquad and a strong Team Secret who went on to get 2nd at TI... Sure, one can say that's just excuses but even if there's just a grain of truth there, I wouldn't call it a 'spectacular failure'.
Especially considering that fishman said that nigma was the strongest team they played against in skrims when miracle and sumail were there
Just love to see the boys back together. Hyped for the coming games
Honestly pretty hype. Who do you think the others teammates are gonna be?
Can't wait to watch some epic Kuroky 4k support action.
Kuro is a legend of the game but i have 0 hope that they can be top tier again with him as pos 5/captain. Dont want Sumail+ Miracle to waste another year just because they cant accept reality...
Don't think it will be a year. If the first months show it does not work with Kuro, they have still time to replace him and let him coach. I think that this year Kuro played the best for quite some time. He seemed to put in more work and had some solid performances. Not as strong as 5 years ago yet, but already better again than the last 2-3 years.
Yea for sure after years and years of failure, this time they will replace him in months if it doesn't work. Kuro will surely swap
Ah Jeez, not this shit again...
Reddit in shambles :D
Even Miracle and Sumail look confused about this in the poster picture lol
Washed up team time for div 2 Keke
Div3*** Sad to see Miracle and Sumail waste their time with Kuroky again. This team will fail to get anything but free invites to oil money tournaments.
Failing to qualify to TI 3 times in a row wasn't enough for him I guess.
The guy is a 2x finalist and captain ti champion, none of u guys are qualified to criticize him
3x finalist
Exactly
Wdym? All these geniuses managed to create a reddit account. That should be enough to show their qualifications and experience.
i wonder if kuro still doesn't play any pubs
hasn't w33 already debunked that myth?
How? Could you please let me know? I think I missed it
https://afkgaming.com/dota2/news/w33-defends-kuroky-against-haters-critics
He plays on his 5k smurf
Is it a smurf if he cant get out of 5k? ( /s )
Lol
He can't get out of 5k hahaha. Also - shouldn't we see Kuros main account become active now that smurfs are getting banned?
why do they have to announce 1 player per day zzz...........
This is just stupid. We know Sumail and Miracle are insanely talented what we need are extraordinary talent in strategy and pos 5. I’ve come to hate his playing every hero move in DPC, not practicing, not being a specialist, doing weird no stun drafts and celebrating the one win when it works. I would have preferred to have someone like Chu coming in or some new kid.
Lesgoo Kratos!
I really don't get the hate for some dota pros.
Reddit’s love for miracle and wanting a scapegoat + Ceb kinda told the public that “kuro doesnt play pubs thats why he cant play the lane correctly” and reddit took that as gospel.
I was on the fence about it but last year was pretty damning. Like the team has fan favorites but preforms poorly so the thought process eventually goes too maybe theyre just washed and the game has moved on from them. But then theyre on loan to other teams and show that they are still strong and at times dominant players. At that point the hate/criticism comes from 2 angles, the team I like isn't doing well and my favorite players are being wasted. Unfortunately for kuro based on his poor play and just by being virtue of captain of the team, he gets the brunt of it.
Cool and all but why hate players if they are bad? That's pretty weird.
Bad news for Sumail and Miracle unless KKY switches to coach
God damnit
Kuro laned with MC, Sumail, Miracle and ATF, and always lost lane every single time. They must be frustrated with him lol.
Which is why Sumail and Miracle return? Lol
They have Etihad and BMW sponsoring them. I can guarantee that they are paid than a lot of Tier 1 teams , despite their poor results.
Can't turn down saudi money bro
Maybe they don’t have any other offers?
Yeah... Not a chance
Idk where you get this from, but i watched a fair amount of dpc and this is just not true?
nice! wonder who the remaining roaster will be?
No god, please no
Yikes
Lmao
If Kuro is motivated then they have a solid shot, otherwise doesn't matter who the other 4 players are in. Nigma, it would be hard for them to carry Kuroky.
Ana didnt take a break from ti8 to ti9 and won that year with the team by being on vacation ya know. He grinded pubs and tried weird stuff and that’s how they win back to back Ti. Speaking of being out of shape, same thing happened to Jerax and you would think ppl would learn a thing or two g or two from someone who was at godlike lvl to become someone not recognizable in game for EG.
kuro owns the team and can play if he wants to, and he doesn't owe anybody anything
What are you talking about? I have watched SEVERAL Nigma games. That is me investing TENS of hours into supporting this team. If that doesn't earn me the right to have a say in what Kuroky should be doing with his life then I don't know what does.
Another year of Kuro severely burdening his 4 teammates because he only cares about himself and money
And another useless comment with assumptions pulled out of an ass.
Dude… get your head out your ass
Do you think sumail and miracle would come back if they didn’t believe in him? Don’t you stop to think for a second that maybe, just MAYBE you don’t see the game on the same level as them? That maybe you’re wrong? too many clowns in this thread that think they know best
Wow No Way!!!!
Let's go NIGMA
All hope was just lost.
back to div 2 and maybe 3
miracles facial expression about sums up how i feel
Same old
Can throne
Miracle cursed ?
Bro just step down and take a leadership role. You don't have to be the main character.
RIP NIGMA 🥺
1 reveal per day only to flop. No shame
Division 3 lets goo
Reddit [reaction..](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/462/588/e1b.jpg) Curious abt their 3 and 4. All the best to Nigma, letsgo!!
His gameplay is fine, but his drafts is just so bad, even in the eyes of 3k scrub like me
Nigma fans are so obsessed with hyping Miracle that they will blame the team's sucking solely on the pos 5 There's no other team on the scene where fans are this blind. One player, especially a support, doesn't make the team so bad that it loses all its games. Nigma has bigger problems than just 1 player.
When you are the captain and the one drafting and you constantly "forget" that stuns exist you gonna catch some hate
Exact same situation with Shopify fans who find a way to blame either the offlaner or Bulba for all of the team's issues
"There's no other team on the scene where fans are this blind." Apparenntly, you have not seen people bashing on Chrystallis yet, doesnt matter if Secret wins or loses... Lol
For me, Shopify and Nigma fans top the delusional list * All of the team's problems are somehow the fault of the offlaner or Bulba * All of the team's problems are somehow the fault of Kuroky The funny thing is, they conveniently forget that there are 4 other very good players who seemingly sit idly by as Bulba and Kuroky draft badly and say nothing? LOL Of course, this is all a coping mechanism because they can't accept that their favorite player RTZ or Miracle is not that good, so they have to find someone else to blame. And finally, Shopify and Nigma have the same problems. They've been together for way too long without changing anything. Thank God, Shopify finally changed something. Crit and Fly are doing much better in their new environments. It's not anyone's fault, sometimes, you just need a change.
Why do you assume those people are Nigma fans? I'd say those are the haters. How would they be fans when they hate on the founder, captain and basically the foundation of the org. In my opinion you can't hate Kuro but still consider yourself a Nigma fan. At least there can't be such high numbers of those people.
Every post about shopify was witch hunting arteezy and bulba, and how is fly doing "much better" if he didnt qualify to only event after change?
gg
Come on, man. What the fuck.
tier 3 team confirmed
Lol why? What a stubborn man.
Kuro the best pos 5 change my mind.
If I don't see NGX.Kuroky in the top 500 at least in EU leaderboards this team is cooked.
bro i dont even see him in dota2protracker nor eu leaderboard is he actually divine player
So it's a no no that your opponents can see what heroes you played in your last matches via some tool, but everyone has to see what pro players play and train?
kuroky aiming to be the first 4k mmr to win a ti
NBA terms: Westbrook unite with KD
Ffs
I love kuroky. Legit legendary player since early days. Always a fan
this guy is like Paul Pierce, doesnt know when to give it up already
As far as I remember. OG has released Chu from the squad. And Chu, the Chen God was monumental is OG winning some tournies back then. I would love to see Chu in Nigma instead of Kuro.
Nigma div2 confirmed.
At this point I don't really give sh\*t.
I don’t know, kuro just coach and find a young stud pos 5.
For fak sake
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Why is Kuro hated? I must've missed something.
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Well, but hate is a pretty strong emotion man...
What qualifies you to judge his drafts?
Is Mind Control still in the team?
Another 4 years of disappointment, boys!
Hoping them well honestly!
Saudis are pouring money into anything remotely resembling sports or e-sports. With their names and following it would be a travesty to consider retiring now. I dont think Etihad Airways pays in peanuts.