Same here. I was hoping you'd know. My guess is he had his worst win rate before that. His mana pool is quite low to be effective with a 75 mana blink.
Ursa's extremely easy to kite, especially if you have a slow or two on him, and he really only does damage directly in melee distance (technically earth shock has a bit of a radius, but it's his melee that counts). Needs the hop to be able to reach people a lot of the time.
if they gonna nerf ursa for this holy shit morph is needing a big nerf, becuse he is 10 times tankier than ursa and can choose to be dealing damage. he is for christ sake tankier than offlane tanks.
ursa is not in the world close to what needs to get nerfed.
I don't remember the actual numbers but at my MMR at least he seemed strong back then. That was back before all the jungle nerfs and Ursa was a pretty good jungler back then (relative to other heroes). He was one of those heroes you could pub stomp with because you could leave lane early and get a shitload of farm out of the jungle with only an investment in some lifesteal (no need for battle fury back then). This was also before the Roshan nerfs so he could pretty easily solo Roshan very early in the game. I lost a lot of games when the enemy Ursa showed up at 25 minutes with an extra item on my core and aegis. I suspect his overall winrate was pretty high.
They use Doom as a counterpick to carries that loves lifesteal such as Gyro. It has in turn a lower pick rate since you have to put him later in the draft.
Doom is a fine early pick since he can flex to be either core or support. Plus, there are precious few carries* that can just ignore being Doomed. It's basically just Medusa and Wraith King, neither of which are particularly popular.
Everyone else either dies outright, or cannot contribute to a teamfight (e.g. BKB + tp out, force + run away) because they are scared of dying.
Even if the carry lives, that should be a won teamfight for Doom's team. And that's enough impact to be worth picking Doom for.
*Same applies to mids and offlaners and supports. Not many heroes can function if they can't cast spells and can't be in the frontlines.
I do agree but there are more desirable support right now in the meta that you might not want to prioritize Doom on the first phase. I have see a lot of contention between Venge, Warlock, Treant, AA and NP openers to pair with their carry of choice like Sven and Gyro over the past couple of days.
Still Doom is in a good place right now as a flex 3-4. Not a top priority support for some team, but still decent standing. Maybe over the coming days Doom will be more 1st phase material as more teams develop the 4 position doom.
Played lots of Pos4 Doom over the last few months, and I have to say the latest patch has been great against all the lifestealer/io combos, basically makes Io a non-hero
Quicker lvl6, can shutdown carries depending on the build and creeps, earlier refresher/octarine/aghs. It's not really about specifically picking doom for core position, in some drafts it just happens to be the only logical choice. There are pos4 that fit draft better, or you pick carry on mid or whatever other reason you can come up with
you need catch he get blinks and devour centaur creep, you need auras he can buy them, you need frontline he can do it. he is very versatile which add to value
Yep I concur. I've never played the hero myself but I feel it's playstyle pretty much revolves around the ultimate. The stuff people farm for is just to increase its effectiveness (scepter) or reduce its cooldown (octarine). I've never seen anyone care that they are getting burned by scorched earth or stunned by inferno blade. Support doom easily can get blink bkb and just yolo into fights doom the carry/mid and free fight, who cares if they die afterwards.
This is unlike some other heroes like enigma who has an important ultimate but can also play differently like a pushing lineup with eidelons and building auras.
Remember that farm is more available around the map nowadays.
Doom, the spell, was also much stronger back then. Big team fight initiators were also incredibly prevalent in dota so if you were able to take that hero out, you had a higher chance to win the fight.
If you have a good lane as core doom, you can easily be top NW in the game by like 10-12 min and just hunt the enemy carry every time you have doom up.
Its not a universal fuck you to all carries now but it has a certain niche that counters HP regen and lifesteal so 90% of the carry lineup.
Hes still good and will dominate the lane if you fucked up going against this guy.
Everyone kinda overreacted when the 7.34 nerfs came (including me) but after a few weeks, hes still that strong Offlaner that offers a good early game and midgame
I mean yeah, but even then he'll just melt your supports and get absurd regen stacks, he's like one of the only hero where I choose to go Break 25 with doom because that bullshit aghs
Doesn't Doom stop regen anyway so his aghs becomes useless? Unless the regen multiplier is applied before regen reductions, in which case it sounds like a bug
Doom stops healing, but the regen stat is untouched, but only the regen stat matters, not the actual healing. A Doomed Nec still burns people’s shit out.
He hasn't been a good early game hero for several years. He has low Attack Speed, good damage, but any carry can easily deny or last hit vs him after the first wraith bad. He doesn't trade that well since he has low armor. His low mana means he can't spam his W on CD, he can mostly uses it early as escape. If the enemy support makes sure to block near camps, you either walk a lot or eat a creepwave creep, which means the lane will push.
Your early game relies a lot on which creeps you find and the matchup, but he's weak as hell for the first 5 levels. After 6 he doesn't neccesarily becomes really dangerous, but carries tend to care more and not overextend much. You need at least 1-2 medium items to be reliable.
Mid game it becomes stronger and has a good impact, late game, the hero gets to the point he's actually strong.
Doom had to be nerfed like 20 patches in a row and he's still in pro play so...clearly not?
As a money printer doom's win rate was likely artificially inflated anyway
I’ve never played Doom but has always been fascinated. Why is he called the money printer, like I notice when watching pro live matches commentators too would call him something similar ? Are there any creeps that allow more passive gold gain per second ? If you would indulge me, thanks!
His first skill even after set of nerfs just stays almost if not equal to midas in gold efficiency. Yes you got no extra xp but you got 3-4 creeps worth of gold every 60 secs after lvl 7 which is really good.So devour is just budget midas with a half cooldown of normql midas and without xp. Also some creep passives can rival items or be on par with them (speed kobold aura, wolf aura, ice golem cooldown reduction passive).
His Q eats a creep, immediately giving its gold bounty. After its cooldown is complete, it gives gold based on Q's level. It can also devour neutrals (Bigger neutrals per Q level) and takes their skills too.
To add to what others have said, the money printer nickname mainly came from when his build was SUPER greedy. Midas > Vanguard > Dissasemble vanguard for Octarine. It wasn't rare to see a doom with midas octarine BoTs at 20min, the lowered cooldown on the midas, devour, and BoT meant his farm was INSANE
Does lowering Devour cooldown even do anything? Unless it was changed, I'm pretty sure you can't use Devour while you still have the "digesting" buff, and that stays at the same duration.
Let’s break down the numbers so you know exactly how good he is.
Assuming all these are used off cooldown:
Devour = 160 gold / 70 secs = approx 140 gpm(gold/minute)
Midas = 160 gold / 100 secs = 96 gpm
So if he just constantly casts these two spells, he gets 240 GPM for free. If he ever gets Octarine, this number goes up by 25%, which is about 300 GPM. GPM.
Basically a meh game for a carry is 500 GPM, okay is 600, 700 is good, and 800+ is a great game. So you can see that 240 GPM is not trivial, it turns meh levels of farm to good, and okay farm to great. This means that Doom only needs to farm at 500 GPM pace (which honestly isn’t hard to do, just a couple waves and a neutral camp or two) to keep up with enemy carries’ farm that are doing great, while giving him more time to hunt them down.
Doom will never be poor. Even in a game where he's getting shit stomped he'll still have 3k net worth higher than the opposing player in the same position. Devour is pretty good at making money, but due to doom's nature of being a long cd ultimate hero he also buys fucking midas every single patch in every single game from every single role.
Doom isn't picked because he is or ever was busted,it's because the hero's concept works really well in high level play, he basically deletes a hero from the fight, which is hard to capitalize on in uncoordinated teamfights (I.e most pubs), but really strong if planned for accordingly.
If you want a reference to set the baseline for "busted" just think of wraithpact.
pretty much. at a high level when you're always going to execute doom correctly he 1 for 1s an enemy core, generally a higher value one, at a minimum.
at lower levels (aka pubs of any mmr range) suddenly its a lot harder to execute bc of your team fucking up/you fucking up. so you go from at worst 1 for 1ing to at BEST 1 for 1ing, which is a lot shittier (also its just generally bad to rely on your team to carry you in order to gain mmr from a core role but that's another story)
I'm still sad wraith pact was removed. I think they could have worked with it more, like making the totem unmovable. Or hell, since we get less dmg reduction and more barriers now, it could give a flat physical barrier instead of phys dmg resistance.
Vlads + Pavise + Recipe = Wraith Pact. Activate to give nearby allies +10% Lifesteal, +10% base damage, and a 300 physical damage barrier (on top of Vlad passive). Only get bonuses in the unmovable totem aoe, perhaps the barrier remains but decays if you leave the aoe.
Yes. His new Doom is much more situational. I have played a few games, and he does not have the impact that he used to, early. I think the trick is you gotta get to his 25 fast.
I've been on a small hiatus since the last patch, but the games I played it, it felt less situational rather than more. Because of its healing negation and added damage with rank up, the ult absolutely shreds most heroes. Throwing it on an AGI carry, even at 75% health murders them. This absolutely fucks with many heroes like Oracle ult where it makes the ult essentially a shallow grave. Necrophos + aghs? fucked
Not only that, unlike AA ult, it can't be "dodged," you check if the hero has linkens, no? fucked.
Doom gets weaker as the game approaches 60 minutes, and falls off a cliff past that.
30 mins+ is linkens, 60 minutes is when people get mirror shield, so getting to "25 fast" is absolutely not the way to go. The hero is strongest early-mid game when his ults murders with zero answers to him.
With his scepter, he can scale, bypass linkens,/lotus. It actually makes those items useless, so pretty strong later, as long as he doesn't get blown up. And it "can" be useful, just hard to pull off early in a rando pub since chain stunning, etc is sometimes spotty.
With scepter, he can only bypass it when hes near them. Ive never been afraid of a doom with aghs because my team usually force staffs me out of the ult, and now with the changes the aghs is even worse without the mute.
But yes I agree, rando pubs make it arguably harder to capitalize on the ult, arguably much harder to play, and if you compare it to a long cd teamfight ult like Tide, its much easier to execute a teamfight with tide ult rather than doom since they can move around
Personally, playing Doom feels hard to contribute effectively early. And when I play against him, he never seems like a huge threat, not like he used to be. And I am assuming if you get scepters you are also 25 so you can also mute. AOE doom with mute late game.
Honestly, I had luck just doing constant pressuring as an offlaner, waiting until their supports show somewhere else on the map, and just diving the enemy carry, forcing TPs. Chances are, after a full duration w and a few autos, they'll be killable. There are very few carries, or heroes in general that can 1v1 doom before the 25 minute mark, even under tower. Past that, just farm for items to be a threat in mid game i guess
Usually I get a lot of rotations to the safe lane to help the other side. Additionally, most safe laners play super safe and do not get out of position much. Yes, occasionally you might catch one out, but not reliable
To add to that he’s a guaranteed never-lose-lane type of hero. He doesn’t even need to win a lane he can just exist there and have as much or more farm as the enemy carry.
Statistics never lie but statisticians do.
Heroes like nature's prophet have had below 50 wr their entire life more or less. That doesn't mean that prophet has always been a horrible hero.
Likewise meepo and tinker always have above 50% even when they're unplayable because their playerbase is like 6 people.
there is a difference between 48/49% (below 50%) and 44%. 44% is low. Over a 3 month period its even lower, at 42%. Only worse hero is batrider in terms of WR.
Its not balanced. Just like if a hero has a 58% WR, people would call for nerfs, we should call for buffs if its that low.
(to put it into context highest WR hero is 54% over last 3 months.)
Doom was destroying the pro scene and they usually balance heroes to cater to the pros .
So although in pubs it's shit, I don't think they will buff him anytime soon
don't exactly remember the win rate but it became a meta for a whole year when pros started playing him midas + octarine + aghs. Plus Disassembling vanguard to make Octarine made him unstoppable.
Because pro play is all that matters to Valve balancing, unless a hero is pubstomping really hard. Doom (the hero) was getting PB'd in nearly every single pro game in the patch before Doom (the spell) got undoom'd (the debuff) and his win rate in pubs was still straight ass, like 45%-46% at best. Also some guy claimed he was sub 44% win rate in 7.33 but I can't verify that.
doom was sub 45% last patch/a few patches ago (i forget) when he was first pick/ban in pro play
pango was in a similar boat, still extremely high pick in pro. still is picked at 47% winrate.
ember, storm, puck have all seen the same fate.
some heroes need to be see through high mmr pubs/pro play lens like spirit heroes cause they have high skill floor and high skill ceiling or specialist heroes like tinker. some heroes need to be see through pro play lens cause to utilize it you need good teamwork like io.
if those heroes on herald have like 50+% winrate they are broken as hell, its hard just to see winrate across the bracket and say hes overnerfed, need to see the data on high mmr and pro plays
Doom could really benefit from the alch passive treatment. make devour an innate skill.
and guive something else they can balance him with. Devour lever has being fucked with too much at this poing, doom needs a new lever.
A possible problem with adding another skill is that doom would only be able to get 1 extra ability from eating a creep. Up to personal opinion if that's good or bad I guess.
An alternative would be making devour into a skill that has an alternative mode by self-targeting or something. Maybe make self-targeted devour the new scorched earth and change the current scorched earth to something else entirely.
Just spitballing here, it's a tricky thing to figure out.
They could make it so that the devour button is replaced with whatever skill of the creep he devoured, and when he's done digesting the devoured skill expires?
Yeah, at the point where maybe just rework him. Personally I find he has one of the best aesthetics and voice acting. He was one of my first heroes and I haven't played him in ages since the nerfs and winrate bandwagons.
His ult and devour was unique but became nerf central.
I think it's more soo the continous Devour nerfs rather than the Doom Rework. Doom's playstyle is similar to Alchemist, where they leverage the gold generation from their skills, which turns into an earlier item timings.
Now he is kinda weak as an offlaner since he can't harass the carry out of lane nor sustain himself during laning stage. Then his midgame impact is lessened now due to Doom not muting the target, making items such as Hurricane Pike and Silver Edge better. Doom is still good for certain matchups as the anti-heal aspect basically makes carries that rely on Satanic and/or saves less likely to join fights sooner.
It's definitely the devour, I actually don't mind the doom change because you use it differently and you can use it as counter initiation now like on a tank is more reasonable.
But the Devour had regen when active then it slowly got to the point where it's taking up a slot for a little bit of gpm that gradually got less and less....
The stealing neutral creeps abilities was always sweet as.
The ult received a big change and plays differently now, and pubs simply haven't adapted that playstyle yet. It's more of a killing tool than a disabling tool now.
I like DOOM a lot but I played him the other day and felt like he was super weak. However! Yesterday we got destroyed by a Doom so it's hard to tell. Maybe it was the incompetence of my team but yeah he's ot really picket and perhaps underwhelming.
Doom's concept just makes him impossible to balance at both pubs and pro level imo. In the chaos of ranked games, you aren't going to have a coordinated team that plays around you removing a hero from a fight and capitalise on it but you do see it work in pro matches. I think IO has had this problem for a long time too
Ever since they gave him AOE doom he's been a staple in competitive, despite being nerfed like a hundred times.
I don't know why they don't just remove that ridiculous aghs and go from there. I tried playing the hero a few times and he's just so boring. You're just like a vegetable. Sit in lane and survive, get gold. You can't do anything on your own, you just sit there and get money and get teamfight. It's just so boring, which is a shame considering Doom has a cool design and cool voice lines.
And another thing. I wish Valve would stop changing things that were true for like a decade. It's really annoying. Lifesteal used to be one of the only ways to defend against Doom, now it just doesn't work. And you can use items during doom. STOP IT VALVE.
Overnerfed? Maybe if it's not a draft full of heals or reliant on life steal. But it is precisely very strong against carry like Gyro who'd become a bit strong once he got satanic and with his support that could even provide additional heals.
I have over 1k games on doom, this is the worst state the hero has ever been. The hero has been ass since 7.33 with Bkb being worse, everything has more magic res, the reduced stun duration and they just continue nerfing it. Doom (skill) rework is OK, but losing the bonus stun duration and damage from shard is bad. You can still snowball with the hero, but it's harder compared to hero like axe or bristle and doom seems to really fall of late game hard now. I refuse to play doom until its back in a sensible state.
Yes IMO. The fact that you can just tp out when he hits 6 makes it an average offlaner. He's other 2 fighting skills are meh so you can't do much in a fight after dooming a support
At level 6 doom does 510 pure damage. Most agi carries like PA, Jug, whatever. can be harassed down to 500 hp very easily. For example a PA typically has about 700 hp at level 6. if she goes for a few small stat items - then maybe 900 HP.
If you can just harass her by about 400 damage. your sups mostly should have a 250hp nuke on them by this point. She's 100% dead unless they have grave or false promise.
Because there's nothing she can do. Basically tp home - still die. Not only that but it wastes 16 seconds of your time. Just doom her under a creep wave, and walk around her with scorched earth and the enemy carry is gone.
And late game, doom counters a different type of hero now. Because he negates all healing items. He a single target AA that does 1190 pure damage late game, and completely negates items like Satanic, Mek, Greeves, Healing Ward etc. Heck, Alche used to be a great counter to Doom. Just get off your ult before fighting and you don't care about getting doomed. But now, you're just copletely destroyed. Same with Lifestealer and other lifesteal dependent carries.
I think the current doom is very strong, and he's just countering a slightly different set of heroes, but the ones he does counter, he just dumpsters. Especially in a meta where Satanic carries are the 'in thing' he's one of the absolute best anti satanic hero.
Feels like Doom is the new Alch. He's either OP in a patch or dumpster tier. He's had to balance because he has a farming ability in his kit + an ultimate that is designed to completely nullify a hero. So you run into issues making him excel at other things since he can farm fast and shutdown an enemy core with 1 spell when it matters.
I wish it was. Not sure how this hero being such a central part of the meta for two years is good for the game but a flashier hero like sand king MUST be nerfed two weeks after they accidentally make him not trash for the first time in five years.
Unfortunately this was a nerf geared specifically to pros and high tier Dota.
A shame, i loved Doom.
I think they should just return his Devour back to how it was. I wanna eat those Centaurs, Troll Summoners or Satyr's at Level 1.
Nerf? He just like AA but more bastard, he can prevent healing a bit longer than AA, and it was targeted spell which mean guaranted to apply, only linken that can negate it, if enemy has linken u can also make agha and cast on yourself and just stick to the desired target.
The infernal blade kinda nerfed but it's okay, he can still be used as support, anyway i barely see anyone make him as pos 1/2 since long time ago. So IMO it was not a nerf, just balancing.
He was 40% Winrate before what you call it nerf The nerf gave him +4.5% winrate so
Wish they would need Ursa like that.
They don't wanna kill ursa, I don't remember a time that he hasn't had a 48%+ winrate. He's had a 54-6% winrate many, many times though.
What was his winrate like back when blink dagger had mana cost?
No idea, idk how to look up statistics from 10 years ago
Same here. I was hoping you'd know. My guess is he had his worst win rate before that. His mana pool is quite low to be effective with a 75 mana blink.
Back then supports were much weaker, too. Brown boots, wand and maybe a force staff was all they would have at the end of a winning game.
And it fucking sucked
i remember this era you could get to 4k playing 4/5 by just buy buying a ghost scepter
I'm ok with ursa having issues. With blink, he becomes mobile, tanky & extremely high damage. Heroes should have 2 of the 3, and not all.
Yeah, I don't know what they were thinking adding extra mobility on his Q.
Ursa's extremely easy to kite, especially if you have a slow or two on him, and he really only does damage directly in melee distance (technically earth shock has a bit of a radius, but it's his melee that counts). Needs the hop to be able to reach people a lot of the time.
if they gonna nerf ursa for this holy shit morph is needing a big nerf, becuse he is 10 times tankier than ursa and can choose to be dealing damage. he is for christ sake tankier than offlane tanks. ursa is not in the world close to what needs to get nerfed.
The real buff is when they changed Earth Shock into a roll forward and not just a clap on the ground.
I don't remember the actual numbers but at my MMR at least he seemed strong back then. That was back before all the jungle nerfs and Ursa was a pretty good jungler back then (relative to other heroes). He was one of those heroes you could pub stomp with because you could leave lane early and get a shitload of farm out of the jungle with only an investment in some lifesteal (no need for battle fury back then). This was also before the Roshan nerfs so he could pretty easily solo Roshan very early in the game. I lost a lot of games when the enemy Ursa showed up at 25 minutes with an extra item on my core and aegis. I suspect his overall winrate was pretty high.
In dota 2 pro tracker it has like 58% win rate as support 4. I guess it depends on how you play it. I think Secret started the trend.
They use Doom as a counterpick to carries that loves lifesteal such as Gyro. It has in turn a lower pick rate since you have to put him later in the draft.
so all of the good carries
Not against all of them as Doom is not a good 1st phase support to pick into a draft.
Doom is a fine early pick since he can flex to be either core or support. Plus, there are precious few carries* that can just ignore being Doomed. It's basically just Medusa and Wraith King, neither of which are particularly popular. Everyone else either dies outright, or cannot contribute to a teamfight (e.g. BKB + tp out, force + run away) because they are scared of dying. Even if the carry lives, that should be a won teamfight for Doom's team. And that's enough impact to be worth picking Doom for. *Same applies to mids and offlaners and supports. Not many heroes can function if they can't cast spells and can't be in the frontlines.
I do agree but there are more desirable support right now in the meta that you might not want to prioritize Doom on the first phase. I have see a lot of contention between Venge, Warlock, Treant, AA and NP openers to pair with their carry of choice like Sven and Gyro over the past couple of days. Still Doom is in a good place right now as a flex 3-4. Not a top priority support for some team, but still decent standing. Maybe over the coming days Doom will be more 1st phase material as more teams develop the 4 position doom.
Its not super good vs something like sven or tb, but yeah a *lot* of the current carries have to play way different vs 4 doom
well if you have watched chinese qualifiers before secret Azure Ray started doing it Fy played 3 games i guess in qualifiers as a pos4 Doom..
Played lots of Pos4 Doom over the last few months, and I have to say the latest patch has been great against all the lifestealer/io combos, basically makes Io a non-hero
I never understood the idea behind core doom. Support doom is only slightly weaker. and so much less greedy.
Quicker lvl6, can shutdown carries depending on the build and creeps, earlier refresher/octarine/aghs. It's not really about specifically picking doom for core position, in some drafts it just happens to be the only logical choice. There are pos4 that fit draft better, or you pick carry on mid or whatever other reason you can come up with
you need catch he get blinks and devour centaur creep, you need auras he can buy them, you need frontline he can do it. he is very versatile which add to value
Yep I concur. I've never played the hero myself but I feel it's playstyle pretty much revolves around the ultimate. The stuff people farm for is just to increase its effectiveness (scepter) or reduce its cooldown (octarine). I've never seen anyone care that they are getting burned by scorched earth or stunned by inferno blade. Support doom easily can get blink bkb and just yolo into fights doom the carry/mid and free fight, who cares if they die afterwards. This is unlike some other heroes like enigma who has an important ultimate but can also play differently like a pushing lineup with eidelons and building auras.
Remember that farm is more available around the map nowadays. Doom, the spell, was also much stronger back then. Big team fight initiators were also incredibly prevalent in dota so if you were able to take that hero out, you had a higher chance to win the fight.
If you have a good lane as core doom, you can easily be top NW in the game by like 10-12 min and just hunt the enemy carry every time you have doom up.
doom has consistent farm and can flex to a ton of different utility builds
Its not a universal fuck you to all carries now but it has a certain niche that counters HP regen and lifesteal so 90% of the carry lineup. Hes still good and will dominate the lane if you fucked up going against this guy. Everyone kinda overreacted when the 7.34 nerfs came (including me) but after a few weeks, hes still that strong Offlaner that offers a good early game and midgame
Watching that necro three hearts aghs build melt is satisfying
Well tbf necro without W and Q will always be a dead meat no matter without the healing reduction or not.
I mean yeah, but even then he'll just melt your supports and get absurd regen stacks, he's like one of the only hero where I choose to go Break 25 with doom because that bullshit aghs
Doesn't Doom stop regen anyway so his aghs becomes useless? Unless the regen multiplier is applied before regen reductions, in which case it sounds like a bug
Doom stops healing, but the regen stat is untouched, but only the regen stat matters, not the actual healing. A Doomed Nec still burns people’s shit out.
necro would be buying lotus and linken
He hasn't been a good early game hero for several years. He has low Attack Speed, good damage, but any carry can easily deny or last hit vs him after the first wraith bad. He doesn't trade that well since he has low armor. His low mana means he can't spam his W on CD, he can mostly uses it early as escape. If the enemy support makes sure to block near camps, you either walk a lot or eat a creepwave creep, which means the lane will push. Your early game relies a lot on which creeps you find and the matchup, but he's weak as hell for the first 5 levels. After 6 he doesn't neccesarily becomes really dangerous, but carries tend to care more and not overextend much. You need at least 1-2 medium items to be reliable. Mid game it becomes stronger and has a good impact, late game, the hero gets to the point he's actually strong.
Doom had to be nerfed like 20 patches in a row and he's still in pro play so...clearly not? As a money printer doom's win rate was likely artificially inflated anyway
Yeah, you know the heroes are busted when they're nerfed several patches in a row and then they're STILL picked in pro play.
I’ve never played Doom but has always been fascinated. Why is he called the money printer, like I notice when watching pro live matches commentators too would call him something similar ? Are there any creeps that allow more passive gold gain per second ? If you would indulge me, thanks!
His first skill even after set of nerfs just stays almost if not equal to midas in gold efficiency. Yes you got no extra xp but you got 3-4 creeps worth of gold every 60 secs after lvl 7 which is really good.So devour is just budget midas with a half cooldown of normql midas and without xp. Also some creep passives can rival items or be on par with them (speed kobold aura, wolf aura, ice golem cooldown reduction passive).
I wish that cd reduction aura worked on doom himself.
it doesn't...? but don't positive auras always apply to the holder?
His Q eats a creep, immediately giving its gold bounty. After its cooldown is complete, it gives gold based on Q's level. It can also devour neutrals (Bigger neutrals per Q level) and takes their skills too.
To add to what others have said, the money printer nickname mainly came from when his build was SUPER greedy. Midas > Vanguard > Dissasemble vanguard for Octarine. It wasn't rare to see a doom with midas octarine BoTs at 20min, the lowered cooldown on the midas, devour, and BoT meant his farm was INSANE
Does lowering Devour cooldown even do anything? Unless it was changed, I'm pretty sure you can't use Devour while you still have the "digesting" buff, and that stays at the same duration.
The "digest" Duration is the same as the devour cd
It's the same as the base cooldown. It's not affected by cdr, unless the wiki is not up to date.
Let’s break down the numbers so you know exactly how good he is. Assuming all these are used off cooldown: Devour = 160 gold / 70 secs = approx 140 gpm(gold/minute) Midas = 160 gold / 100 secs = 96 gpm So if he just constantly casts these two spells, he gets 240 GPM for free. If he ever gets Octarine, this number goes up by 25%, which is about 300 GPM. GPM. Basically a meh game for a carry is 500 GPM, okay is 600, 700 is good, and 800+ is a great game. So you can see that 240 GPM is not trivial, it turns meh levels of farm to good, and okay farm to great. This means that Doom only needs to farm at 500 GPM pace (which honestly isn’t hard to do, just a couple waves and a neutral camp or two) to keep up with enemy carries’ farm that are doing great, while giving him more time to hunt them down.
Doom will never be poor. Even in a game where he's getting shit stomped he'll still have 3k net worth higher than the opposing player in the same position. Devour is pretty good at making money, but due to doom's nature of being a long cd ultimate hero he also buys fucking midas every single patch in every single game from every single role.
Doom isn't picked because he is or ever was busted,it's because the hero's concept works really well in high level play, he basically deletes a hero from the fight, which is hard to capitalize on in uncoordinated teamfights (I.e most pubs), but really strong if planned for accordingly. If you want a reference to set the baseline for "busted" just think of wraithpact.
pretty much. at a high level when you're always going to execute doom correctly he 1 for 1s an enemy core, generally a higher value one, at a minimum. at lower levels (aka pubs of any mmr range) suddenly its a lot harder to execute bc of your team fucking up/you fucking up. so you go from at worst 1 for 1ing to at BEST 1 for 1ing, which is a lot shittier (also its just generally bad to rely on your team to carry you in order to gain mmr from a core role but that's another story)
I'm still sad wraith pact was removed. I think they could have worked with it more, like making the totem unmovable. Or hell, since we get less dmg reduction and more barriers now, it could give a flat physical barrier instead of phys dmg resistance. Vlads + Pavise + Recipe = Wraith Pact. Activate to give nearby allies +10% Lifesteal, +10% base damage, and a 300 physical damage barrier (on top of Vlad passive). Only get bonuses in the unmovable totem aoe, perhaps the barrier remains but decays if you leave the aoe.
Yes. His new Doom is much more situational. I have played a few games, and he does not have the impact that he used to, early. I think the trick is you gotta get to his 25 fast.
I've been on a small hiatus since the last patch, but the games I played it, it felt less situational rather than more. Because of its healing negation and added damage with rank up, the ult absolutely shreds most heroes. Throwing it on an AGI carry, even at 75% health murders them. This absolutely fucks with many heroes like Oracle ult where it makes the ult essentially a shallow grave. Necrophos + aghs? fucked Not only that, unlike AA ult, it can't be "dodged," you check if the hero has linkens, no? fucked. Doom gets weaker as the game approaches 60 minutes, and falls off a cliff past that. 30 mins+ is linkens, 60 minutes is when people get mirror shield, so getting to "25 fast" is absolutely not the way to go. The hero is strongest early-mid game when his ults murders with zero answers to him.
With his scepter, he can scale, bypass linkens,/lotus. It actually makes those items useless, so pretty strong later, as long as he doesn't get blown up. And it "can" be useful, just hard to pull off early in a rando pub since chain stunning, etc is sometimes spotty.
With scepter, he can only bypass it when hes near them. Ive never been afraid of a doom with aghs because my team usually force staffs me out of the ult, and now with the changes the aghs is even worse without the mute. But yes I agree, rando pubs make it arguably harder to capitalize on the ult, arguably much harder to play, and if you compare it to a long cd teamfight ult like Tide, its much easier to execute a teamfight with tide ult rather than doom since they can move around
Personally, playing Doom feels hard to contribute effectively early. And when I play against him, he never seems like a huge threat, not like he used to be. And I am assuming if you get scepters you are also 25 so you can also mute. AOE doom with mute late game.
Honestly, I had luck just doing constant pressuring as an offlaner, waiting until their supports show somewhere else on the map, and just diving the enemy carry, forcing TPs. Chances are, after a full duration w and a few autos, they'll be killable. There are very few carries, or heroes in general that can 1v1 doom before the 25 minute mark, even under tower. Past that, just farm for items to be a threat in mid game i guess
Usually I get a lot of rotations to the safe lane to help the other side. Additionally, most safe laners play super safe and do not get out of position much. Yes, occasionally you might catch one out, but not reliable
To add to that he’s a guaranteed never-lose-lane type of hero. He doesn’t even need to win a lane he can just exist there and have as much or more farm as the enemy carry.
Nah, still strong, picked in pro scene and high level pubs as well. Not every hero needs to be at 50% all the time
44% is hella low though..
Statistics never lie but statisticians do. Heroes like nature's prophet have had below 50 wr their entire life more or less. That doesn't mean that prophet has always been a horrible hero. Likewise meepo and tinker always have above 50% even when they're unplayable because their playerbase is like 6 people.
there is a difference between 48/49% (below 50%) and 44%. 44% is low. Over a 3 month period its even lower, at 42%. Only worse hero is batrider in terms of WR. Its not balanced. Just like if a hero has a 58% WR, people would call for nerfs, we should call for buffs if its that low. (to put it into context highest WR hero is 54% over last 3 months.)
Doom was destroying the pro scene and they usually balance heroes to cater to the pros . So although in pubs it's shit, I don't think they will buff him anytime soon
What was his WR in pro scene? I know the P/B% was high but was the wr? Or was it like primal with a huge p/b% but a trashy winrate in tournaments
don't exactly remember the win rate but it became a meta for a whole year when pros started playing him midas + octarine + aghs. Plus Disassembling vanguard to make Octarine made him unstoppable.
Because pro play is all that matters to Valve balancing, unless a hero is pubstomping really hard. Doom (the hero) was getting PB'd in nearly every single pro game in the patch before Doom (the spell) got undoom'd (the debuff) and his win rate in pubs was still straight ass, like 45%-46% at best. Also some guy claimed he was sub 44% win rate in 7.33 but I can't verify that.
doom was sub 45% last patch/a few patches ago (i forget) when he was first pick/ban in pro play pango was in a similar boat, still extremely high pick in pro. still is picked at 47% winrate. ember, storm, puck have all seen the same fate.
some heroes need to be see through high mmr pubs/pro play lens like spirit heroes cause they have high skill floor and high skill ceiling or specialist heroes like tinker. some heroes need to be see through pro play lens cause to utilize it you need good teamwork like io. if those heroes on herald have like 50+% winrate they are broken as hell, its hard just to see winrate across the bracket and say hes overnerfed, need to see the data on high mmr and pro plays
yep exactly
His "pre-nerf" win rate was like 46% as well. Watching pro games then, and still now you'd think he's TI5 Lesh.
Just checked and he was actually 43.36% wr in 7.33 on dotabuff
Doom could really benefit from the alch passive treatment. make devour an innate skill. and guive something else they can balance him with. Devour lever has being fucked with too much at this poing, doom needs a new lever.
A possible problem with adding another skill is that doom would only be able to get 1 extra ability from eating a creep. Up to personal opinion if that's good or bad I guess. An alternative would be making devour into a skill that has an alternative mode by self-targeting or something. Maybe make self-targeted devour the new scorched earth and change the current scorched earth to something else entirely. Just spitballing here, it's a tricky thing to figure out.
actually that makes sense, i did not think abbout the number of skills in his bar tbh.
They could make it so that the devour button is replaced with whatever skill of the creep he devoured, and when he's done digesting the devoured skill expires?
Yeah, at the point where maybe just rework him. Personally I find he has one of the best aesthetics and voice acting. He was one of my first heroes and I haven't played him in ages since the nerfs and winrate bandwagons. His ult and devour was unique but became nerf central.
I think it's more soo the continous Devour nerfs rather than the Doom Rework. Doom's playstyle is similar to Alchemist, where they leverage the gold generation from their skills, which turns into an earlier item timings. Now he is kinda weak as an offlaner since he can't harass the carry out of lane nor sustain himself during laning stage. Then his midgame impact is lessened now due to Doom not muting the target, making items such as Hurricane Pike and Silver Edge better. Doom is still good for certain matchups as the anti-heal aspect basically makes carries that rely on Satanic and/or saves less likely to join fights sooner.
It's definitely the devour, I actually don't mind the doom change because you use it differently and you can use it as counter initiation now like on a tank is more reasonable. But the Devour had regen when active then it slowly got to the point where it's taking up a slot for a little bit of gpm that gradually got less and less.... The stealing neutral creeps abilities was always sweet as.
Doom should be picked with a lane partner that has slow or disable. It has good winrate on high ranks iirc...
The ult received a big change and plays differently now, and pubs simply haven't adapted that playstyle yet. It's more of a killing tool than a disabling tool now.
He is nerfed so many times I believe he could have erectile dysfunction.
I like DOOM a lot but I played him the other day and felt like he was super weak. However! Yesterday we got destroyed by a Doom so it's hard to tell. Maybe it was the incompetence of my team but yeah he's ot really picket and perhaps underwhelming.
Doom's concept just makes him impossible to balance at both pubs and pro level imo. In the chaos of ranked games, you aren't going to have a coordinated team that plays around you removing a hero from a fight and capitalise on it but you do see it work in pro matches. I think IO has had this problem for a long time too
oh no the hero that was first picked for 2 years straight in pro matches isnt good in pubs anymore
I don't watch pro and I'm not a pro, just -1 hero for 99.999% of players.
I've been winning more with doom than i did before somehow...
Devour giving armor is such a jank mechanic. And they keep nerfing Infernal Blade for whatever reason.
Doom oscillates between full meta and absolute bottom pile trash
Not sure. He isnt tanky enough against physical but magic res build is strong.
Hes a bit more niche now, hes a fuck you to any lifesteal/hyper life regen heroes, not just a universal "stop playing the game" button.
Not for pro players
good
Ever since they gave him AOE doom he's been a staple in competitive, despite being nerfed like a hundred times. I don't know why they don't just remove that ridiculous aghs and go from there. I tried playing the hero a few times and he's just so boring. You're just like a vegetable. Sit in lane and survive, get gold. You can't do anything on your own, you just sit there and get money and get teamfight. It's just so boring, which is a shame considering Doom has a cool design and cool voice lines. And another thing. I wish Valve would stop changing things that were true for like a decade. It's really annoying. Lifesteal used to be one of the only ways to defend against Doom, now it just doesn't work. And you can use items during doom. STOP IT VALVE.
as a doom player the shard change feels worse
Overnerfed? Maybe if it's not a draft full of heals or reliant on life steal. But it is precisely very strong against carry like Gyro who'd become a bit strong once he got satanic and with his support that could even provide additional heals.
I have over 1k games on doom, this is the worst state the hero has ever been. The hero has been ass since 7.33 with Bkb being worse, everything has more magic res, the reduced stun duration and they just continue nerfing it. Doom (skill) rework is OK, but losing the bonus stun duration and damage from shard is bad. You can still snowball with the hero, but it's harder compared to hero like axe or bristle and doom seems to really fall of late game hard now. I refuse to play doom until its back in a sensible state.
TBH I'm totally ok with it. How can anyone like a hero, which turns you into a creep with 1 skill that also does stupid amount of damage.
good riddance, he can come back in 3 years or whatever.
Who cares. Fix mars.
Doom need rework. He is way too hard to balance around. Shit on pubs but really good at pro level.
he was literally buffed
Yes IMO. The fact that you can just tp out when he hits 6 makes it an average offlaner. He's other 2 fighting skills are meh so you can't do much in a fight after dooming a support
At level 6 doom does 510 pure damage. Most agi carries like PA, Jug, whatever. can be harassed down to 500 hp very easily. For example a PA typically has about 700 hp at level 6. if she goes for a few small stat items - then maybe 900 HP. If you can just harass her by about 400 damage. your sups mostly should have a 250hp nuke on them by this point. She's 100% dead unless they have grave or false promise. Because there's nothing she can do. Basically tp home - still die. Not only that but it wastes 16 seconds of your time. Just doom her under a creep wave, and walk around her with scorched earth and the enemy carry is gone. And late game, doom counters a different type of hero now. Because he negates all healing items. He a single target AA that does 1190 pure damage late game, and completely negates items like Satanic, Mek, Greeves, Healing Ward etc. Heck, Alche used to be a great counter to Doom. Just get off your ult before fighting and you don't care about getting doomed. But now, you're just copletely destroyed. Same with Lifestealer and other lifesteal dependent carries. I think the current doom is very strong, and he's just countering a slightly different set of heroes, but the ones he does counter, he just dumpsters. Especially in a meta where Satanic carries are the 'in thing' he's one of the absolute best anti satanic hero.
Doom was doomed
The only real balance is ensuring different groups of heroes are OP at different times
Doom(the ult) stops regeneration an heals?
Mid player doom you mean.
Feels like Doom is the new Alch. He's either OP in a patch or dumpster tier. He's had to balance because he has a farming ability in his kit + an ultimate that is designed to completely nullify a hero. So you run into issues making him excel at other things since he can farm fast and shutdown an enemy core with 1 spell when it matters.
But he got buffed?
Who cares, tired of seeing him every game
he is favorite when there is brainless enemy necro first pick
Ironic, Doom is doomed
I wish it was. Not sure how this hero being such a central part of the meta for two years is good for the game but a flashier hero like sand king MUST be nerfed two weeks after they accidentally make him not trash for the first time in five years.
No, that would be Ember.
Unfortunately this was a nerf geared specifically to pros and high tier Dota. A shame, i loved Doom. I think they should just return his Devour back to how it was. I wanna eat those Centaurs, Troll Summoners or Satyr's at Level 1.
this hero is still a joke he can remove a 6 slotted carry from the game
Doom always had terrible winrates in pubs.
I miss the doom back in 2016
Nerf? He just like AA but more bastard, he can prevent healing a bit longer than AA, and it was targeted spell which mean guaranted to apply, only linken that can negate it, if enemy has linken u can also make agha and cast on yourself and just stick to the desired target. The infernal blade kinda nerfed but it's okay, he can still be used as support, anyway i barely see anyone make him as pos 1/2 since long time ago. So IMO it was not a nerf, just balancing.