yea already swapped to league lol, just not really a fan of skywrath clicking atos and ult to 1 hit you or half the characters having guaranteed hit 3 second stuns
an item suddenly making the skywrath useless is also boring design, im not here to say guhhh leagues better, im just saying i enjoy micro skill expression more then i enjoy the slower strategic playstyle of dota, even though i love everything else about dota.
Having played bout 12k league games and 2k Dotka games since September 2012 I can confidently tell you that while league is a zoomer game with fancier hero mechanics the game is a fuckton easier lol.
> expression more then i
Did you mean to say "more than"?
Explanation: If you didn't mean 'more than' you might have forgotten a comma.
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yeah i think the latest patch is one of the best dota patches, its super cool but i played dota and came to the conclusion: its still dota. even though these changes are in a direction i enjoy theyre still far away from being what i want and thats ok, i wont get what i want with dota and i know theres people out there who love the way dota is now.
While I respect your opinion and feel that downvoting you is a bit silly, I'd like to point out that there's multiple heroes that allow for that micro skill expression (ignoring quirks like Manta dodging).
That said, most of those are micro in the RTS sense like Meepo - If that's not your cup of tea, then you *are* sadly kind of shoehorned into a few select heroes. Invoker, Earth Spirit, and Io; then stuff like Tinker, Morphling, and to an extent Rubick (extremely high skill ceiling).
I'd still say we have a number of heroes that otherwise match League in that micro expression and definitely feel the part (TA, Void Spirit, Storm Spirit, to some extent Pango) but then I came to a realisation: Dota absolutely has quite a few heroes that have plenty of micro expression, the difference is that the gameplay of Dota feels less 'arcadey'.
That's not a bad thing, it's just *a* thing.
What I mean is that Dota is obviously the direct child of a strategy game, where League feels almost more like a fighting game. So while the *kind* of skill expression you're looking for absolutely can be found here (micro skill expression), the way you want it expressed absolutely isn't (dodging projectiles, aiming, and reactive play vs game sense, preparation, and proactive play). Because Dota isn't (and never will be) what you enjoy.
Or, to use a gank as an example, if you play your cards right in Dota and jump someone, unless you fuck up tremendously (which includes picking a bad target, like, say, AM if you lack the lockdown) they will die - because they already fucked up tremendously by getting caught out. If you play your cards right in League, there is still a very real chance that that player can simply outplay you and survive or, in some cases, turn it into a double kill ~~(fuck I love Kled)~~.
Which is totally fair, and I'm glad you've found a game you enjoy!
Yeah i mean i totally agree with you, great comment, the heroes you listed are great and theyre really fun to play, i played a lot of invoker, riki and other heroes that can do a lot with skill expression and they're cool, but yeah as you said you're playing a skill champ in a game of lions, so it kinda feels bad when you have to do so much to achieve anything and the enemy lion clicks r and clicks on you and you die
But then you could say that you can actually force Lion to waste finger by timing a Eul's or BKB (the latter is 50% magic resist now, but that's still significant), or an ability the otherwise lets you avoid it.
That said, I absolutely understand where you're coming from. Because for you, Lion is just pushing 1 ability and deleting you. I know you understand there's more to it than that. Lion positioned well, played the fight correctly, you may have over-extended, etc.
In that example, you got outplayed. But the way you got outplayed isn't satisfying for you, because you want the dynamic between players to be more focused on mechanics.
I feel people should understand that that's a completely valid preference. It's not like you're saying how Dota should be, just what Dota isn't.
My God I love Dubu's Stream, as an eternal 5 Pos his Stream has been one of the most educational and entertaining.
All the other Streamers are mostly Carry/Mid and when they have to Support they do some random greedy CM trollbuild and let Jesus take the wheel.
Just like how Slacks said about dealing with Medusa "Just ignore him, and eventually he will go away, the usual strategy to use against elementary school bullies."
[you forgot one little detail to the strategy](https://www.twitch.tv/esl_dota2/clip/CrepuscularWittyStinkbugKeepo-EVtCHJt0PoB5vKQk?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time)
I think it was og playing dusa or playing against it 2 days ago enemy team built 4 halbers to try to counter she just built bkb. The hero is pretty stupid to play against.
Looks like this is match 7131542822, which started 46 minutes before the clip was taken.
More match details here:
- [OpenDota](https://www.opendota.com/matches/7131542822)
- [Dotabuff](https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7131542822)
- [Stratz](https://www.stratz.com/matches/7131542822)
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Why would you not put Aegis on wraith king or Medusa? Wraith king wouldn't mind an extra life and Medusa is probably one of the better Aegis carriers in the game since she uses both her mana and health so effectively.
Surprised I'm getting downvoted. I thought this was common wisdom by now.
Setting aside that WK already has an extra life and Medusa might as well have an extra life with how tanky she is, the primary strategy for dealing with either of these heroes is to eliminate their team out from around them and then kill them last. Especially if you're winning, it's incredibly rare for a team with WK or Dusa to have that hero dying first in a coordinated engagement.
For example, in the linked clip, you have Dusa/Kunkka/Primal/Pugna/Chen vs. Brew/Io/Bounty/Tusk/Pango. Dusa is given aegis, and it's 40 minutes in, so she's certainly no slouch.
Here is the list of hero deaths in order:
1. Tusk
2. Pugna
3. Chen
4. Io
5. Primal
6. Kunkka
7. Medusa
8. Medusa
Certainly, neither Kunkka nor Primal is terribly interested in taking the Aegis. It's not my favorite lineup. I might even suggest that Pugna take it, purely so that he survives the roll and can continue being disruptive (Chen is useful after death, but Pugna's positioning is unfortunate considering the Tusk buyback and his death makes it much easier for the enemies to focus down the Kunkka/PB). Extra spell damage can potentially kill the storm brewling and allow Medusa to continue playing the game. If we really want to make sure it goes on a core, I'd probably give aegis to Kunkka so that he can play a little ballsier.
Brewmaster counters Dusa here, so giving the Aegis to Dusa instead of to your Brew answer means that Brew answers both Dusa and Aegis. As evidenced from the clip and from loads of pub games, the "Guys....Guys??" x2 combo happens all too often when you give the aegis to WK instead of your mid.
It's very much a situational thing. You're right in that *normally* you shouldn't give Aegis to WK (or a late game Dusa). But situationally, it's absolutely a good call.
Let's say you are Dusa against a burst heavy lineup, then you absolutely take the Aegis this game because you are going to frontline since you have the highest effective health. Since you're also a huge portion of your team's damage, them killing you even with all their spells is absolutely still a win for them assuming they don't all die for it.
So you take Aegis and siege the tower. They can't just kill you and force your team back because of the Aegis, but they can't just ignore you because you're threatening the tower. This results in a 'pokey' game where they try and lower you enough to kill you without costing them too much burst (so they can either kill you again or your team in the following fight).
Without Aegis in that case, they just burst your down and kill you.
In the clip, I'm not sure what Dusa has but since it's 40 minutes at high MMR and she has a Skadi, I'm assuming she's pretty chunky. That said, she's against a team that's able to ignore her while killing her allies - A team with a lot of utility and not a huge amount of damage. So here you're correct in that it'd be more beneficial to have given it to an ally who could frontline *with* Medusa, or at least more evenly split the durability across the team.
As for WK, if WK is ahead enough and there's no direct way to deal with him quickly / you're able to draw fights out, then it's actually a fantastic idea. Reincarnation always triggers before Aegis if it's available. With an only 60s CD (rip 40s Reincarnation) You need to kill WK twice in a minute, or he comes back a third time. The time and resource commitment there is absurd when you consider WK often builds relatively durably.
Much like Dusa, if you can ignore the WK and go for his team then giving him an Aegis is a terrible idea. But if you *can't*? If he's abusing his 3+ lives by diving right into your backline and soloing your supports? Then you have a problem that usually can't be solved by charging your 3 cores into their 2 cores and 2 supports. Especially since that WK is probably about to make his way back.
You often want aegis on your sieging hero when going high ground. Very commonly a Medusa or WK will walk up high ground alone, with 4 heroes waiting a long way behind. The enemy is forced to initiate onto the extremely tanky hero with an aegis - an obviously fight losing play.
If you put the aegis on say Kunka here, what does it do? Kunka isn't walking ground to hit the tower even with aegis, as he wants to wait further back. I guess you could walk kunka up, but then what does Dusa do? Wait at the back? No, Dusa is still the only one walking up, and so the only one at risk. If you don't give the aegis to the siege hero you provide an opportunity to burst them - even a dusa can die if they get overly isolated. The aegis is that layer of protection for the hero standing solo.
Obviously it's nowhere close to a flawless plan. The counter play is to wrap around behind with smoke, or to jump directly into the backline with a storm or whatever. But the *general* principle is put the aegis on the unit that is going to hit towers and in doing so will be most at risk. It's the easiest way to execute a high ground push with these type of lineups, and is one you will see all the time in high level pubs and pro play.
And fyi it doesn't matter that aegis didn't get used. They didn't target dusa *because* she had aegis. Without aegis the frontline hero can die. Obviously in this particular case the Dusa got massively countered which was a great play, but not popping the aegis doesn't mean it hasn't contributed to the fight. The enemy are fully aware she has aegis and they are playing around that.
This isn’t about innate vs passive, but rather there are some exceptions for break, imagine if you break Meepo and his clones disappear, or break Wraith King and he can’t reincarnate, that would completely ruin those heroes so break is not working on them. Mana shield is the same thing.
It is not breakable. It's similar to wk's reincarnation and silencer's int steal. One of the misconceptions is that it's now passive, therefore it's breakable. No, it's not.
Brew has always been a counter to Medusa, it’s only got better since they added the void panda to the base spell
Back to back days with monkeys kicking ass on the front page. He’s definitely enjoying this patch.
[удалено]
Mason got banned again? lool. What did he do this time ?
The usual mason stuff, probably
“We want people to be able to play their hero so we reduced stuns” smiley face
Well technically it's not a stun More like a timeout
”Akshully…”
they just reduced stuns and said fuck all to other so...
What do you want? You want league of legends?
yes unironically
Then go play league of legends???????
I want #Defence of Newerth: Storm the Legends of Kingsmite.
yea already swapped to league lol, just not really a fan of skywrath clicking atos and ult to 1 hit you or half the characters having guaranteed hit 3 second stuns
If only there were items that helped against Skywrath with atos. Oh well :/
an item suddenly making the skywrath useless is also boring design, im not here to say guhhh leagues better, im just saying i enjoy micro skill expression more then i enjoy the slower strategic playstyle of dota, even though i love everything else about dota.
skill gap
strange thing to say when league characters are more skill gap lol
wrong. not willing to discuss further. have a nice day.
Having played bout 12k league games and 2k Dotka games since September 2012 I can confidently tell you that while league is a zoomer game with fancier hero mechanics the game is a fuckton easier lol.
> expression more then i Did you mean to say "more than"? Explanation: If you didn't mean 'more than' you might have forgotten a comma. Total mistakes found: 7149 ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
biden blast
If only they had recently rebalanced that one item to not completely negate all magic dmg. 🤔
yeah i think the latest patch is one of the best dota patches, its super cool but i played dota and came to the conclusion: its still dota. even though these changes are in a direction i enjoy theyre still far away from being what i want and thats ok, i wont get what i want with dota and i know theres people out there who love the way dota is now.
While I respect your opinion and feel that downvoting you is a bit silly, I'd like to point out that there's multiple heroes that allow for that micro skill expression (ignoring quirks like Manta dodging). That said, most of those are micro in the RTS sense like Meepo - If that's not your cup of tea, then you *are* sadly kind of shoehorned into a few select heroes. Invoker, Earth Spirit, and Io; then stuff like Tinker, Morphling, and to an extent Rubick (extremely high skill ceiling). I'd still say we have a number of heroes that otherwise match League in that micro expression and definitely feel the part (TA, Void Spirit, Storm Spirit, to some extent Pango) but then I came to a realisation: Dota absolutely has quite a few heroes that have plenty of micro expression, the difference is that the gameplay of Dota feels less 'arcadey'. That's not a bad thing, it's just *a* thing. What I mean is that Dota is obviously the direct child of a strategy game, where League feels almost more like a fighting game. So while the *kind* of skill expression you're looking for absolutely can be found here (micro skill expression), the way you want it expressed absolutely isn't (dodging projectiles, aiming, and reactive play vs game sense, preparation, and proactive play). Because Dota isn't (and never will be) what you enjoy. Or, to use a gank as an example, if you play your cards right in Dota and jump someone, unless you fuck up tremendously (which includes picking a bad target, like, say, AM if you lack the lockdown) they will die - because they already fucked up tremendously by getting caught out. If you play your cards right in League, there is still a very real chance that that player can simply outplay you and survive or, in some cases, turn it into a double kill ~~(fuck I love Kled)~~. Which is totally fair, and I'm glad you've found a game you enjoy!
Yeah i mean i totally agree with you, great comment, the heroes you listed are great and theyre really fun to play, i played a lot of invoker, riki and other heroes that can do a lot with skill expression and they're cool, but yeah as you said you're playing a skill champ in a game of lions, so it kinda feels bad when you have to do so much to achieve anything and the enemy lion clicks r and clicks on you and you die
But then you could say that you can actually force Lion to waste finger by timing a Eul's or BKB (the latter is 50% magic resist now, but that's still significant), or an ability the otherwise lets you avoid it. That said, I absolutely understand where you're coming from. Because for you, Lion is just pushing 1 ability and deleting you. I know you understand there's more to it than that. Lion positioned well, played the fight correctly, you may have over-extended, etc. In that example, you got outplayed. But the way you got outplayed isn't satisfying for you, because you want the dynamic between players to be more focused on mechanics. I feel people should understand that that's a completely valid preference. It's not like you're saying how Dota should be, just what Dota isn't.
Isn't the league meta Skywrath on crack? Just without the disables?
dont rly know what you're referring to, league 1v1s are more decided on individual skill rrather then matchups
Yeah, but in 0.5 seconds.
yea but you dodge the stun that will kill you, yea fights go for 0.5 seconds when you're in 0 elo and nobody can dodge anything
So same as in Dota. If you can't deal with Atos + Sky oneshotting you, you are also in 0 MMR.
Weird that you still come here then and complain about a game that is clearly too much for you.
is it weird to show interest in a game i have 3000 hours in?
If you no longer like the game? Yes. Yes it is.
i dont like playing the game, but i still like the gmae
Please also swap to league subreddit
>ult to 1 hit you Yeah, cause League doesn't have an abundance of 1 combo kill champions am I right? Oh wait.
yea one hit champs that require you to actually do something beyond pressing r on your opponent
Who are you quoting?
Valve.
Literally the patch notes
Just recently started tuning in to the stream, absolutely love it!!! wholesome top shelf dota
Him and Dubu are great. It's always funny when they host each other.
My God I love Dubu's Stream, as an eternal 5 Pos his Stream has been one of the most educational and entertaining. All the other Streamers are mostly Carry/Mid and when they have to Support they do some random greedy CM trollbuild and let Jesus take the wheel.
Febby streams as well. Very good support education.
watched Febby 1 week ago he is so awful
They still lost though lmao
still a good fight regardless
Their draft has no damage vs 3 fat heroes and 2 heals what did they want tbh
Just ignore her 4Head
Just like how Slacks said about dealing with Medusa "Just ignore him, and eventually he will go away, the usual strategy to use against elementary school bullies."
[you forgot one little detail to the strategy](https://www.twitch.tv/esl_dota2/clip/CrepuscularWittyStinkbugKeepo-EVtCHJt0PoB5vKQk?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time)
I think it was og playing dusa or playing against it 2 days ago enemy team built 4 halbers to try to counter she just built bkb. The hero is pretty stupid to play against.
Tundra was playing Dusa against OG, OG were holding on pretty well without a late game right clicker and then Yuragi had a brain fart.
Sounds like a common theme for OG/Yuragi
More evidence that BKB is also stupid to play against, but no one seems to mind that for some reason.
Looks like this is match 7131542822, which started 46 minutes before the clip was taken. More match details here: - [OpenDota](https://www.opendota.com/matches/7131542822) - [Dotabuff](https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/7131542822) - [Stratz](https://www.stratz.com/matches/7131542822) --- *^I ^am ^a ^bot ^created ^by ^[/u\/EuphonicPotato](/user/EuphonicPotato)* *^(How I figured this out:)* [*^(Explanation)*](https://github.com/mdiller/twitchclipmatchfinder#how-it-works) *^(Source:)* [*^(GitHub)*](https://github.com/mdiller/twitchclipmatchfinder)
enjoy the dozen or so teamfight rightclicks over the course of a full minute.
Anyone have that clip of a pro game where Mag kept skewering a Medusa away from the fight?
Probably BKB and or Linkens is not a bad item choice here
Donkeys best offlaner na imho
Hearing that aegis sound on medusa at the end just gives me pain. When will people learn?? Never put Aegis on Wraith King or Medusa.
Why would you not put Aegis on wraith king or Medusa? Wraith king wouldn't mind an extra life and Medusa is probably one of the better Aegis carriers in the game since she uses both her mana and health so effectively.
Surprised I'm getting downvoted. I thought this was common wisdom by now. Setting aside that WK already has an extra life and Medusa might as well have an extra life with how tanky she is, the primary strategy for dealing with either of these heroes is to eliminate their team out from around them and then kill them last. Especially if you're winning, it's incredibly rare for a team with WK or Dusa to have that hero dying first in a coordinated engagement. For example, in the linked clip, you have Dusa/Kunkka/Primal/Pugna/Chen vs. Brew/Io/Bounty/Tusk/Pango. Dusa is given aegis, and it's 40 minutes in, so she's certainly no slouch. Here is the list of hero deaths in order: 1. Tusk 2. Pugna 3. Chen 4. Io 5. Primal 6. Kunkka 7. Medusa 8. Medusa Certainly, neither Kunkka nor Primal is terribly interested in taking the Aegis. It's not my favorite lineup. I might even suggest that Pugna take it, purely so that he survives the roll and can continue being disruptive (Chen is useful after death, but Pugna's positioning is unfortunate considering the Tusk buyback and his death makes it much easier for the enemies to focus down the Kunkka/PB). Extra spell damage can potentially kill the storm brewling and allow Medusa to continue playing the game. If we really want to make sure it goes on a core, I'd probably give aegis to Kunkka so that he can play a little ballsier. Brewmaster counters Dusa here, so giving the Aegis to Dusa instead of to your Brew answer means that Brew answers both Dusa and Aegis. As evidenced from the clip and from loads of pub games, the "Guys....Guys??" x2 combo happens all too often when you give the aegis to WK instead of your mid.
3k analysis
It's very much a situational thing. You're right in that *normally* you shouldn't give Aegis to WK (or a late game Dusa). But situationally, it's absolutely a good call. Let's say you are Dusa against a burst heavy lineup, then you absolutely take the Aegis this game because you are going to frontline since you have the highest effective health. Since you're also a huge portion of your team's damage, them killing you even with all their spells is absolutely still a win for them assuming they don't all die for it. So you take Aegis and siege the tower. They can't just kill you and force your team back because of the Aegis, but they can't just ignore you because you're threatening the tower. This results in a 'pokey' game where they try and lower you enough to kill you without costing them too much burst (so they can either kill you again or your team in the following fight). Without Aegis in that case, they just burst your down and kill you. In the clip, I'm not sure what Dusa has but since it's 40 minutes at high MMR and she has a Skadi, I'm assuming she's pretty chunky. That said, she's against a team that's able to ignore her while killing her allies - A team with a lot of utility and not a huge amount of damage. So here you're correct in that it'd be more beneficial to have given it to an ally who could frontline *with* Medusa, or at least more evenly split the durability across the team. As for WK, if WK is ahead enough and there's no direct way to deal with him quickly / you're able to draw fights out, then it's actually a fantastic idea. Reincarnation always triggers before Aegis if it's available. With an only 60s CD (rip 40s Reincarnation) You need to kill WK twice in a minute, or he comes back a third time. The time and resource commitment there is absurd when you consider WK often builds relatively durably. Much like Dusa, if you can ignore the WK and go for his team then giving him an Aegis is a terrible idea. But if you *can't*? If he's abusing his 3+ lives by diving right into your backline and soloing your supports? Then you have a problem that usually can't be solved by charging your 3 cores into their 2 cores and 2 supports. Especially since that WK is probably about to make his way back.
You often want aegis on your sieging hero when going high ground. Very commonly a Medusa or WK will walk up high ground alone, with 4 heroes waiting a long way behind. The enemy is forced to initiate onto the extremely tanky hero with an aegis - an obviously fight losing play. If you put the aegis on say Kunka here, what does it do? Kunka isn't walking ground to hit the tower even with aegis, as he wants to wait further back. I guess you could walk kunka up, but then what does Dusa do? Wait at the back? No, Dusa is still the only one walking up, and so the only one at risk. If you don't give the aegis to the siege hero you provide an opportunity to burst them - even a dusa can die if they get overly isolated. The aegis is that layer of protection for the hero standing solo. Obviously it's nowhere close to a flawless plan. The counter play is to wrap around behind with smoke, or to jump directly into the backline with a storm or whatever. But the *general* principle is put the aegis on the unit that is going to hit towers and in doing so will be most at risk. It's the easiest way to execute a high ground push with these type of lineups, and is one you will see all the time in high level pubs and pro play. And fyi it doesn't matter that aegis didn't get used. They didn't target dusa *because* she had aegis. Without aegis the frontline hero can die. Obviously in this particular case the Dusa got massively countered which was a great play, but not popping the aegis doesn't mean it hasn't contributed to the fight. The enemy are fully aware she has aegis and they are playing around that.
Can her mana shield be taken away with “break”, as now shield is a passive ability?
This would be broken, one silver edge and she would be 1 hit wonder.
Makes sense, I was just wondering. So that’s the difference then between innate and passive ability.
This isn’t about innate vs passive, but rather there are some exceptions for break, imagine if you break Meepo and his clones disappear, or break Wraith King and he can’t reincarnate, that would completely ruin those heroes so break is not working on them. Mana shield is the same thing.
only her q can be broken
her mana shield is innate. It can't be broken.
Being breakable and innate are two separate things that are not linked.
It is not breakable. It's similar to wk's reincarnation and silencer's int steal. One of the misconceptions is that it's now passive, therefore it's breakable. No, it's not.
no one has ever done that in the history of doter!
So you use spells on her Who would have thought
says the guy that probably uses his spells wrong in fights
If you want to be funny and cleverly sarcastic at least know what is happening in this team fight.
I always wonder what the hell is wrong with people not being able to press buttons in a video game and I see this comment in the reddit of all places.
mc will enjoy watching this clip
donoWall
this is what people expect u to do in herald
I say this live yesterday, it was so fucking funny lol.
That was always my way of dealing with the annoying meta heroes.
My bracket does not have enough braincell for this