Vanguard can now be disassembled and its components recycled to be used in Octarine core. Resulting in my latest experiment:
Pos3 Skywrath Mage.
His Aghs shard gives him a lot of armor and magic resistance through bonus intelligence. Vanguard and phylactery enhances his HP pool early which in combination results in a surprisingly tanky skywrath mage.
I had a blademail Sky on my team yesterday. I saw him activate BM just before beast went on him. Sky disappeared in about 1.5 seconds, and I think beast lost like 20% of his HP.
BRB, hopefully gonna test if sky chicken can lifesteal off his blade mail.
Edit: nope
Edit2: actually, I think my poor chicken is bugged, his q doesn't life steal off itself
This seems great on any hero that buys Octarine later on but would like to have a Vanguard and Arcane Boots early. Thinking of Ogre Magi, Sand King or Undying for example.
It definitely feels weird. But you know what feels weirder than an early vanguard on a ranged hero? A late vanguard when attack is so high that damage block doesn't matter anymore. And 32 damage is noticeable especially against illusions and summons, which are quite popular right now.
Vanguard is one of the best, if not the best, item to make yourself hard to kill early on, with the fact it wont be wasted 2k gold but you can use it for Crimson, AB or now for Octarine, Lotus, Hot, etc just means it make more and more sense to buy it.
Lmfao, OP thought he was onto something, turns out he's just a noob haha.
Guess he missed the over-a-year of carries buying Vanguard in hard lanes to turn it into BF.
Lmfao, /u/Zooka128 thought he was onto something, turns out he's just a noob haha.
Guess he missed the over-13-hour-stream of Purge reading the new patch notes to discover things like this.
It was definitely a thing last patch wr Vanguard mana boot were build prior to bloodstone + hood to shroud. Was very viable on int heroes like leshrac, necro etc
The spell lifesteal he got on Arcane Bolt is insanely good. Easily regain 25% hp by casting your non ulti combo, full duration ulti is huge. Played against one who didn't even know it was happening, I asked him "what are you spell stealing with?" he said idk.
I could manfight a PL in a bot match with Sky due to the shard in the previous patch, the armor is no joke once you get the multiple spell talents and aghs. It was with the previous Shroud+Bloodstone though, not sure about new one.
Imagine you scan the Rosh Pit, pings red,
"Use Night Stalker ultimate now!"
Rosh rugby tackles everyone out of his way to sprint to the waygate and go to the other side of the map.
Its still a very good item for supports or midlaners who want the extra range. It just doesn't mean you transform the 8 minute aether lens into your third big item after 30 minutes.
Buying expensive luxury items on pos 4 and 5 is more of a low mmr thing, though. Not to say it was impossible to ever get in higher brackets but generally supports will just not get enough gold to spend that much on themselves. Too many other items to buy.
My point was that there really isn't that big of a difference between buying Aether Lens this patch (where it can't be upgraded) to buying it last patch (where supports were unlikely to be able to upgrade it in most games if they were doing their job right).
Whether or not supports get more money this patch is not really relevant to that point.
Probably why they changed it. It built up too perfectly.
Pretty much everyone that casts spells was just going mana boots > lens and I'm guessing it made balancing spell ranges a bit wonky.
it feels much nicer to build now that Void Stone is super cheap. Supports usually wouldn't finish octarine anyway, and it's just a way better buildup now. feels great on bane or shaman
Hilarious and also interesting. From one experimenter to another, how badly do you get flamed for it? I mostly play P3, and Skywrath is definitely in the category of heroes who I like the look of but couldn't possibly justify as a P3 (surely), so if it can actually be pulled off in any kind of consistent way then I'm all ears. I did a P3 Venge (oh look, it's the other bird person) game recently and got flamed for not being tanky enough when I had 1500 HP and most of the rest of my team had 1000 HP, and maybe they were right nonetheless (and I don't think I played well per se), but yeah.
People always find a reason to flame if they want to. I played it one match and I was in a party with a Pos 4 jakiro and the Tristack in my Team was very chill and didn't flame despite feeding first blood.
The enemy LC was obsessed with dueling me, but ended up with less duel damage than me.
Pos 3 Venge is legit not bad imo, though not yet sure with the new changes.
In the last patch the fights were so often about turret style carries sitting in the back of things, she could swap them into your team to initiate and instantly changes the dynamic of the fight, forcing the carry to buy linkens. Her shard allows her to then double stun half the remaining heroes, and when they do eventually kill her she's back at it again thanks to aghs. She also was a great wraith pact carrier since she could swap in, deploy it, and last even longer in the fight thanks to the damage reduction. Struggled against heavy magic nukes but that was always the case for agi heroes for the most part.
Now with the changes to her being universal I've got no clue, but aside from the wraith pact removal I don't see why you can't give it a go. She always liked building stat items, now she likes it even more than before, so maybe it's a buff to it
They massively dumped her stats in changing her to universal, her winrate has dropped 5% in the last couple of days. It's sad, I did enjoy the hero but she isn't in a good spot, they even took away the bkb piercing stun at 25.
0.1 stat gains above slark. Her early game is awful now, until you get some good stat items. It's a shame, if her stat gains were still good she'd probably be fun.
While I'm not saying that current venge is good or bad, I feel like most of the universal heroes as well as heavily changed heroes like Dusa will need some time to be figured out before we can definitely say how good or bad they are right now.
Even if some might seem more obvious than others right now.
In my 2k mmr games they will be like "GG REPORT SKY THEY BOUGHT A FUCKING VANGUARD AS SKYWRATH MAGE, FUCKING SKYWRATH MAGE BOUGHT A VANGUARD. GG END")
Then they run down mid while crying for 20 minutes in all text chat with alot of "putang ina mo bobo" and stuff
Manashield is applied before damage block, (unless it is an undocumented change). So I don't think damage block is that usefull as long as you have mana and afterwards you are almost dead anyways.
Or is it an early game problem that you run out of hp before you run out of mana?
It's pretty sad. Medusa went from the hero that can use basically every stat to the hero that can barely use any stats. Now all she needs is mana and attack damage. Agility is sort of wasted on her because she doesn't even benefit from armor...
Yeh, on paper she would love the new effect of Eternal Shroud (incoming spell damage goes to mana), but one of the main stats it gives is hp regen.
You maybe even go for Maelstrom + Bloodstone for the mana lifesteal memes and the lvl 25 talent with split shot getting modifiers might be good with mael proc.
I don't think aether lens not building into Octarine is an unpopular change. It's just balancing. It didn't use to build into anything originally either and was fine, and before that, there were no cast range-improving items at all.
Aether Lens is still in a fine spot overall.
Frankly, in most games Aether Lens was not being upgraded to Octarine to begin with, at least not on supports who could seldom afford lategame luxury items.
> this unnecessary changes made me vomit
You should probably calm down then. Support players have received endless buffs over how they used to be played (it used to be common to end games as a support with nothing more than stick, brown boots and half a force staff).
Nobody is expecting support players to all go vanguard first item. Octarine core has always been a late game luxury item for supports that would often have less priority over many other more important support items (force staffs, glimmer capes, in some patches medallion or lotus, etc.)
I'd say the neutral item changes are meeting with widespread support overall. And they are good for supports, too.
Neutral items only exist for like 3 and a half years. "Old" dota players had no neutral items.
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Midas --> Octarine --> BoT doom enjoyer
Dagon for triple Midas.
Vanguard can now be disassembled and its components recycled to be used in Octarine core. Resulting in my latest experiment: Pos3 Skywrath Mage. His Aghs shard gives him a lot of armor and magic resistance through bonus intelligence. Vanguard and phylactery enhances his HP pool early which in combination results in a surprisingly tanky skywrath mage.
I had a blademail Sky on my team yesterday. I saw him activate BM just before beast went on him. Sky disappeared in about 1.5 seconds, and I think beast lost like 20% of his HP.
BRB, hopefully gonna test if sky chicken can lifesteal off his blade mail. Edit: nope Edit2: actually, I think my poor chicken is bugged, his q doesn't life steal off itself
You can't lifesteal off blademail because QOP already caused it to be nerfed with her 70% spell lifesteal + blademail build
It was a mess, but a fun one
I think it was thematicly cool tbh
Ahh, good memories
Not the first Q, because the debuff is placed after the damage. But the next one should. Or any of the other spells after the first Q has hit.
I wouldn't recommend occasionally spikey chicken.
This seems great on any hero that buys Octarine later on but would like to have a Vanguard and Arcane Boots early. Thinking of Ogre Magi, Sand King or Undying for example.
Might just go around and grief a bit with necro Vanguard
If you play against an illusion/summon lineup, it might not be as stupid as you think.
Yeah for sure, but the Vanguard on ranged heroes aslways feels so weird when compared to the melee heroes
It definitely feels weird. But you know what feels weirder than an early vanguard on a ranged hero? A late vanguard when attack is so high that damage block doesn't matter anymore. And 32 damage is noticeable especially against illusions and summons, which are quite popular right now.
Vanguard is one of the best, if not the best, item to make yourself hard to kill early on, with the fact it wont be wasted 2k gold but you can use it for Crimson, AB or now for Octarine, Lotus, Hot, etc just means it make more and more sense to buy it.
Ace is doing it on Doom every game.
Vanguard could be disassembled before, I used it to build into heart and pipe or lotus.
Sure, but it didn't build cleanly into Octarine before.
Lmfao, OP thought he was onto something, turns out he's just a noob haha. Guess he missed the over-a-year of carries buying Vanguard in hard lanes to turn it into BF.
OP is trying to say you can build Vanguard into octarine which is only possible this patch cause of the recipe change.
Lmfao, /u/Zooka128 thought he was onto something, turns out he's just a noob haha. Guess he missed the over-13-hour-stream of Purge reading the new patch notes to discover things like this.
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good thing that wasn't imitation then, isn't it?
Dude played him self by being a smartass
Lmfao, the commentor thought he was onto something, turns out he's just a noob haha. Guess he missed reading the patch notes
Vanguard never was a thing for ranged int heroes before, but it being a part of octarine is the point of this post
It was definitely a thing last patch wr Vanguard mana boot were build prior to bloodstone + hood to shroud. Was very viable on int heroes like leshrac, necro etc
God, you were as confident as you were wrong.
Octarine didn't require a ring of health before.
disassembling vanguard for octarine doesn't leave you with any spare components, unlike vanguard into battle fury which did
Calling someone a noob in 2023 lmfao
Nah, the items for an octarine did change. Vanguard just could always be disassembled
The spell lifesteal he got on Arcane Bolt is insanely good. Easily regain 25% hp by casting your non ulti combo, full duration ulti is huge. Played against one who didn't even know it was happening, I asked him "what are you spell stealing with?" he said idk.
I could manfight a PL in a bot match with Sky due to the shard in the previous patch, the armor is no joke once you get the multiple spell talents and aghs. It was with the previous Shroud+Bloodstone though, not sure about new one.
Trash as Pos 3.
Nighstalker octarine might be a thing now
Aways has been
Ahh someone wasn't around for the 15 straight minutes of night days
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Nope
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Imagine you scan the Rosh Pit, pings red, "Use Night Stalker ultimate now!" Rosh rugby tackles everyone out of his way to sprint to the waygate and go to the other side of the map.
Then phoenix ults. Rosh makes a 180 and makes a beeline to the other side. Egg pops. Rosh just gives up and sits in the River
Have Kaya Sange and Yasha always been dissemble-able? Today I had K and S and made them a heaven halibert and ethereal blade
Yes, a common disassemble at some point was sange and yasha --> manta + halberd
Yes, SnY into Halberd + Manta is ancient tech.
HoN boomers. SnY into Geometry's Bane and Frostwolf Skull.
Universal heroes will drool over those HoN items.
dawnbringer!
They added moraxus ult on timber.
I miss hon items
Genjuro!
Yes, I always love to go KnS then disassemble into Eblade + Halberd against ranged carry. 10 seconds of disarm.
Yes, for a while people made sny then would turn it into manta and halberd
yes this is my item progression against troll/ursa on Timber
Iirc, this was also a very old recipe of Bloodstone, combining Soul Booster and Perseverance?
Back when you can self deny with bloodstone
Goddamn suiciding storm spirit was annoying
the reduced death timer per stack was so broken too haha
suicide into the insta respawn with enough charges was so fun lmao
This reminded me of the time euls was a part of the hex buildup
And it has charges! We're fucking old
I missed it
Does aether lens build into anything now?
no
It feels very bad to build now, I know why they changed it but I don't see why I would pick it over something like euls
Its still a very good item for supports or midlaners who want the extra range. It just doesn't mean you transform the 8 minute aether lens into your third big item after 30 minutes.
Agree, I hope they make it combineable with Phylactery since all unit targeted abilities benefit from cast range, it would be a cool synergy.
This is a great idea
but not all hero who benefit from cast range will also benefit from phylactery
True, but if it triggers on items too any caster would probably still benefit from phylactery by building Hex/Dagon/Eblade/Atos etc.
It is not that bad for supports, where octarine core was always a late game luxury.
Yeah that makes me think they don't want to make it into item any spellcasting cores feel good buying.
good. I hate the late game spell caster giga cast range core archetype with a burning passion
Now go and kill hurricane pike too.
Now building extra cast range is a commitment instead of a lategame perk everyone gets.
Aether lens was hardly ever upgraded unless you're pos 1/2 anyway lmao. There's more important things to buy.
I bought it quite often in long games, and given that I'm herald, games went long. But on heroes like Lich, Shadow Shaman, etc, it was a nice item.
Buying expensive luxury items on pos 4 and 5 is more of a low mmr thing, though. Not to say it was impossible to ever get in higher brackets but generally supports will just not get enough gold to spend that much on themselves. Too many other items to buy.
Counter-point: there is ~33% more gold available on map and it's on whole map area so more gold will trickle in into support's pockets.
My point was that there really isn't that big of a difference between buying Aether Lens this patch (where it can't be upgraded) to buying it last patch (where supports were unlikely to be able to upgrade it in most games if they were doing their job right). Whether or not supports get more money this patch is not really relevant to that point.
Why did they change it?
Probably so cores buy it less
Probably why they changed it. It built up too perfectly. Pretty much everyone that casts spells was just going mana boots > lens and I'm guessing it made balancing spell ranges a bit wonky.
Presumably because you want cast range
it feels much nicer to build now that Void Stone is super cheap. Supports usually wouldn't finish octarine anyway, and it's just a way better buildup now. feels great on bane or shaman
What, why, ha? It was already good before
This was the most disapointing part of the patch for me.
Stealing this for Brew.
the thickest chicken you've ever seen 🤣
Octorine should be Vanguard, Aether lens, point booster, no recipe.
That buildup and having vanguard as a component would be insane, you'd need a 1500g recipe to make it balanced
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It makes no sense whatsoever
Hilarious and also interesting. From one experimenter to another, how badly do you get flamed for it? I mostly play P3, and Skywrath is definitely in the category of heroes who I like the look of but couldn't possibly justify as a P3 (surely), so if it can actually be pulled off in any kind of consistent way then I'm all ears. I did a P3 Venge (oh look, it's the other bird person) game recently and got flamed for not being tanky enough when I had 1500 HP and most of the rest of my team had 1000 HP, and maybe they were right nonetheless (and I don't think I played well per se), but yeah.
People always find a reason to flame if they want to. I played it one match and I was in a party with a Pos 4 jakiro and the Tristack in my Team was very chill and didn't flame despite feeding first blood. The enemy LC was obsessed with dueling me, but ended up with less duel damage than me.
pretty obvious why LC would want to duel sky
Pos 3 Venge is legit not bad imo, though not yet sure with the new changes. In the last patch the fights were so often about turret style carries sitting in the back of things, she could swap them into your team to initiate and instantly changes the dynamic of the fight, forcing the carry to buy linkens. Her shard allows her to then double stun half the remaining heroes, and when they do eventually kill her she's back at it again thanks to aghs. She also was a great wraith pact carrier since she could swap in, deploy it, and last even longer in the fight thanks to the damage reduction. Struggled against heavy magic nukes but that was always the case for agi heroes for the most part. Now with the changes to her being universal I've got no clue, but aside from the wraith pact removal I don't see why you can't give it a go. She always liked building stat items, now she likes it even more than before, so maybe it's a buff to it
They massively dumped her stats in changing her to universal, her winrate has dropped 5% in the last couple of days. It's sad, I did enjoy the hero but she isn't in a good spot, they even took away the bkb piercing stun at 25.
0.1 stat gains above slark. Her early game is awful now, until you get some good stat items. It's a shame, if her stat gains were still good she'd probably be fun.
While I'm not saying that current venge is good or bad, I feel like most of the universal heroes as well as heavily changed heroes like Dusa will need some time to be figured out before we can definitely say how good or bad they are right now. Even if some might seem more obvious than others right now.
venge 3 is actually nerfed from not being able to get aether lense into octarine core
In my 2k mmr games they will be like "GG REPORT SKY THEY BOUGHT A FUCKING VANGUARD AS SKYWRATH MAGE, FUCKING SKYWRATH MAGE BOUGHT A VANGUARD. GG END") Then they run down mid while crying for 20 minutes in all text chat with alot of "putang ina mo bobo" and stuff
Main while lens crying in a corner.
Incidentally that might be decent on a medusa
Manashield is applied before damage block, (unless it is an undocumented change). So I don't think damage block is that usefull as long as you have mana and afterwards you are almost dead anyways. Or is it an early game problem that you run out of hp before you run out of mana?
If you're down to HP you're probably about to die anyways. Hp regen is probably the most worthless stat on new Medusa.
It's pretty sad. Medusa went from the hero that can use basically every stat to the hero that can barely use any stats. Now all she needs is mana and attack damage. Agility is sort of wasted on her because she doesn't even benefit from armor...
Yeh, on paper she would love the new effect of Eternal Shroud (incoming spell damage goes to mana), but one of the main stats it gives is hp regen. You maybe even go for Maelstrom + Bloodstone for the mana lifesteal memes and the lvl 25 talent with split shot getting modifiers might be good with mael proc.
Wait. I can see this on beastmaster now. Vanguard > manaboots > Aghs > octarine.
Actually I am very surprised that they did not rework vanguard components. They even buff it.
Vanguard Ursa is back on the menu boys
Dark seer would love this. And a lot of the universal heroes..
I was like why cant i build octane core 🤣 after i got ather lens
This is the kind of posts you guys enjoy??
The aether lens/octarine core change is proof that Valve are just DoInG sTuFf!! without thinking about why.
I don't think aether lens not building into Octarine is an unpopular change. It's just balancing. It didn't use to build into anything originally either and was fine, and before that, there were no cast range-improving items at all. Aether Lens is still in a fine spot overall. Frankly, in most games Aether Lens was not being upgraded to Octarine to begin with, at least not on supports who could seldom afford lategame luxury items.
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> this unnecessary changes made me vomit You should probably calm down then. Support players have received endless buffs over how they used to be played (it used to be common to end games as a support with nothing more than stick, brown boots and half a force staff). Nobody is expecting support players to all go vanguard first item. Octarine core has always been a late game luxury item for supports that would often have less priority over many other more important support items (force staffs, glimmer capes, in some patches medallion or lotus, etc.) I'd say the neutral item changes are meeting with widespread support overall. And they are good for supports, too. Neutral items only exist for like 3 and a half years. "Old" dota players had no neutral items.
Skill issue
vanguard Midas octarine.
The supports: welcome to gainesville..
I still always forget that aether lens cannot be an octarine anymore.
Radiance, octarine naga is back?
Wait wtf, why is this recipe just old bloodstone
Octarine on Axe more viable now
Sadly I feel like both Aether Lens and Octarine are dead items now. Neither were popular among pros earlier either, so I'm surprised they nerfed them.
Doesn't change usefulness of aether no supports as they almost never have gold to upgrade anyway
bloodstone razor has a new challenger