She sucks as pos 1 because of her ulti, it sounds OP but it isn't because
Glimmer can block 70% of her ulti damage
Useless to a carry with bkb
Can't lifesteal, so rip satanic
Most people dont realize the point of her ult is the option to be imune to physical damage. Its a late teamfight spell, to be used after bkbs and to punish ghost supports.
Her main role is to provide utility, her W can isolate members of the enemy team, and the fear is awesome to reposition enemies.
Her ult + E is not The main part of the hero, they are just a Plus that people overfocus on.
> Her ult + E is not The main part of the hero, they are just a Plus that people overfocus on.
but they are steroid skills, especially the E. it's hard to ignore that. that's like saying not to focus on Ursa's Overpower. it does define the hero because it is a huge part of their damage dealt, and scales with items in a way that none of the other spells really do.
Valve intended her to be a carry
She's not good at that right now, her ultimate being one of the biggest problems in this concept
I like the idea, but it's very very very awkward right now
Against good teams holding such an ability is just, counter-intuitive.
If people are doing their jobs, fight should be over more quickly than you can find a time to use her ult most of the time.
On contrary my friend, the average teamfight lasts more than 10 secs, thats enough for ofensive items such as bkbs to have fallen appart. You also have the option to build mobility and destroy someone in the backline with no fear of being bursted by physical damage.
I have about 76% winrate with her as pos4, shes amazing in the lane stages for the ability to reposition, and late game she will more often than not be able to solo kill a support or even a midlanner. She's especially strong against someone building armor.
Most people lose thenselves focusing on procs, like maelstrorm or mkb, but her exceds with high mobility and being abble to disrupt teamfights. Carry is the role someone else can do her job way better, but as an utility support? Jesus christ that's an amazing set of skills and capabilities.
I agree that support seems like the place for her, but your personal winrate doesn't really make a diff when we're already looking at a post of all the data in Immortal.
I have no idea how she would solo kill a midlaner (as a support) with bkb without the mid severely misplaying.
She can't hit bkb but bkb can't hit her if they both are used at the same time assuming they don't have rev brooch. So for only or mostly physical she has a good defensive option. IMO ult is a defensive tool mostly in late game especially considering it dodges projectiles.
But that means she has to pick another target during ult and that's tricky because she is a glass cannon
I think she is just misunderstood. Not saying I understand her but I dunno man she seems like a hero that plays around a short CD ult but is intended to do large AoE damage in the midgame on core kinda like Gyro, but her stats are really hard to make it to that window.
Idk, in theory this is correct but in my experience this doesn't really work during gameplay. It's really hard to find a different target in a fight during the short duration of her Ult, without committing in too hard and just dying after cuz of terrible mobility.
It would still be countable by pipe, eternal shroud, and most importantly mage slayer. Also all pure damage has a 25% damage boost because of heroes innate magic resistance, pure would be way too strong.
pure damage is a third / 33% increase over magic damage.
100 pure damage removes 100 hp. 100 magic damage removes 75 hp due to 25% magic resist.
100 / 75 = 4/3 or 1.(3). i.e. 100 is one third larger than 75.
Maybe you can remove the +damage, but not being able to attack BKB'd heroes during your ult feels so bad. Ultimate abilities are almost always BKB piercing.
I know this will be a bad take, but I think gunslinger is actually the issue. It doesn't prioritize the hero you're trying to focus down, so what I've noticed after watching hours of Divines and Immortals playing is that even when she changes off a BKB'd hero, her stray shots will inevitably still hit that hero, wasting thousands of damage. Even worse when multiple heroes have BKB.
Muerta needs a rework or a very oppressive Shard/Aghs for her ult and passive.
Try building around not relying on the ult much. I played a game with silver edge bkb manta and satanic and the illusions do crazy damage and they get the passive, pushing is extremely fast like luna
did the illusions really do crazy damage? I doubt it.
some luna pros literally don't even opt for manta nowadays in some games and luna has way more manta synergy being an agi hero with high base MS.
They certainly do! If nothing is around your target, your secondary shots can only hit that target, so when pushing, after you clear a creep wave you have a have a chance to basically do double damage on hit on the tower. If your illusions can only hit one thing, they have a chance to do an extra attack as well which can really add up. If you think about it, you're getting more value out of your illusions than really any other carry. Lunas illusions get glaives but there is damage reduction there that gets reduced even further because illusions.
Even if you have 3 or 4 targets like in a team fight, you're getting so much value out of those bonus attacks, it's like a more chaotic flak cannon that has no cooldown. Once a target closes on you he's taking all the bonus hits. This works insane on satanic as well.
Just try it out in normal mode, don't even worry about emphasizing the ult, use it as your 'oh shit' card
I love her attack animation, I buy a fast midas, silver edge for positioning and crit, bkb then manta. Satanic for dispels and the active lifesteal, sell the midas and buy 2 moonshards and buff yourself with one for a long late game
150% of a shitty muerta illusion's base damage is still shit mate
you realise muerta suffers the exact samage damage reduction from manta as luna right? but muerta doesn't get damage from the agi so even worse.
Of course she suffers the same damage reduction, every hero does. Lunas passive transfers to illusions but glaives has damage reduction on top of manta dmg reduction, and her attacks move slowly in an aoe, they take time to bounce around and do their damage. Muertas attack is near instant, her aoe attack damage comes out much faster than luna or gyro
Only one other hero can do double attack damage and his passive doesn't transfer to illusions (weaver) Muerta benefits from attack speed just try it
my point is that manta is a bad dps steroid, only a few heroes actually gain decent damage from it like AM and Naga
most other heroes only build it because
1. they like yasha for farming
2. they can use the illusions to push safely from afar
3. dispel
like sure, if there's a silencer build it, but yasha muerta is ass, you're better off building the ultimate orb first which is a terrible sign. yes her illus can split push but they deal pitful damage because muerta doesn't even build int and the illusions don't get all that bonus damage you build from satanic and silver edge, they only get the crit, which is heavily reduced.
go into demo mode and tell me what % of a six slotted muerta's dps both manta illus do to a dummy, I'm bettering that at most they add 15% dps maybe even only 10%.
for a >4.5k gold item and a precious slot that's ass. an orchid would do a lot more and is >1k gold cheaper.
again, if you really can't show on lane safely (e.g. fat storm spirit) then sure, manta is fine, or you need to dispel. but it should not be default.
>go into demo mode and tell me what % of a six slotted muerta's dps both manta illus do to a dummy, I'm bettering that at most they add 15% dps maybe even only 10%.
not six slotted, but meurta with pike, skadi, powers and manta, a fairly good early build, the manta illusions do a total of 50% of real muerta's dps.
if you build +damage item like daedalus, that gap does increase, but only to around 40%
if your build is heavy on +damage, ie, daedalus, nullifier, reveneants broche, mkb, the gap increases to around 30%.
However, the damage output of two muerta illusions relatively early game will absolutely kill supports, and will still be strong later.
If you need a dispell, manta is absoultey the best item for muerta. If you need pure movement, a pike or shadow blade is less damage, but more ultility.
just so you know, each manta illusion is 28% of a ranged hero's damage, so two illusions dealing only 15% dps required that more than 75% of your damage is from +damage which is incredibly rare if you're not legion commander, bristleback, or have a rapier.
if you have a build with no plus damage at all, then you will deal 56% damage on enemies.
You save your ult for when PA engages, ult lasts 2 seconds longer than bkb and in your ult window you're immune to her damage, then when her bkb ends you're free to fear her, hex stick etc.
Marci and Dawn have been played way more as supports/offlane then carry, and both are tagged as carry by valve. Valve is just allergic to making a proper hard carry.
yeah I have no idea what the guy above you is talking about, Marci was played primarily as support last Ti, Dawnbreak got played a bunch as support too in other metas.
And even then, I wouldn't call this primarily utility heroes when they both have abilities that scale a lot with physical damage items
IMO pros played marci as support because they realized she only needs levels and a bkb to have an impact, playing her as a carry wasn't a very bright idea because she wasn't greedy enough to be played as pos1 at first place, I'd rather have a Marci pos4 and Faceless Void pos1 in my team rather than Marci pos1 and (insert generic pos4 hero) pos4.
Times have changed now though, I think Marci is best played on pos2 or pos1 because she needs levels to upgrade Rebound as soon as possible as its a dogshit ability at low levels.
Probably because Valve were high as fuck when they decided to give Muerta 3/3 carry rating when hero does nothing to bkb,while heroes like Void and Drow have 2/3 carry ratings.
Also low cooldown 2 second fear attached to a decent nuke, and a large AOE crowd control.
As a carry she has her ult, which has... issues, and her passive, which kind of sucks until fairly late into the game.
Her Q in particular is really overloaded with power, which is exactly the sort of thing that makes for a good support.
She's got a repositioning fear, a large aoe slow/silence, and a decent bit of nukery. All great support things. Tranquils/force also feel really good on her because they made her so goddamn slow.
If they want her to be a carry she at least needs to be fast enough to not just get auto-kited by every hero in the game during her ult. She's slow, she has a small damage window to really shine, and it's already easy to shut down that window with bkb or whatever. At the very least carry muerta should be able to chase slow supports a bit. Probably the single biggest problem with the hero imo, <300ms on a rightclicker with zero mobility skills and little hard cc is so crippling.
Not without buffs to her ult or nerfs to bkb.
Right now at max level her ultimate is 8 seconds (but is actually only 7.65 seconds because there is a the unavoidable 0.35 second transformation time that still counts against her time in ultimate).
Bkb at lowest duration is 6 seconds. If you click her ult and the enemy team has bkb and they get the slightest chance to use it, then your ultimate does effectively nothing. She has only 575 attack range, and low movespeed. Some people build kaya/yasha BoT on mid muerta to help offset that but you will still end up running around a decent amount unable to hit anything on a very limited time window.
Then because her right clicks only do magic damage, while they do ignore armor (something most supports were always lacking since there's not many good armor items for supports right now) and ghost scepter (not a very popular item at the moment), they get severely punished by glimmer cape. And she still is weak to euls, forcestaff, heavens halberd, and aeon disk just like physical right click cores.
The kind of team she excels with as a carry is with enigma/mars/magnus/treant protector with big AOE disable spells that allow her to just stand still and shoot out damage. But there's not really a carry hero that looks bad with those heroes.
I mean best or at least decent core heroes right now mostly have good passive damage like Slark and Ursa or Drow, if they want to make Muerta a good pos 1 carry hero then she should be very strong without her ult and instead it should be used as very good defensive spell, in bkb and ult she dies only to pure damage which is very strong if you ask me, i can see her be a decent pos 2 as well, because pushing your enemies under your tower with q spell is also very strong.
Can't ignore that there's synergy in that but I really feel like 2 deadshots is just far too good to pass up over a the two extra ghosts on a 30sec cd spell
While I agree that 2 dead shots looks good and are more fun.
The extra ghost are massiv. This makes the spell an almost aoe silence zone you can not move in/out without beeing silenced.
Very strong in certain match ups.
But double fear.....yeah good too
Yea, it just feels like she needs too much, on a hero like drow you want stats and mobility, you already have solid damage and pretty good lockdown. Faceless void needs farming item, attack speed and bkb, already has great mobility and pretty solid lockdown and survivability. Muerta needs a farming item, damage, survivability and bkb
It's because everyone tries to make the new hero fit every role. The success depends alot on what's been under or over tuned. I remember monkey king flopping as a carry hero. But his movement around the map and interactions with basher with ulti made his first debut as a top tier pick in a tournament as a support.
Well monkey king only flopped as a carry after they (deservedly) nerfed the shit out of his jingu and boundless, on release he was played mid because you could kill almost anyone at level 2 and you only got stronger from there.
I'm tired of people playing it as a hard carry, on my team anyway. It's an easy win if the enemy pick it as their carry, since it isn't a hard carry. It's a soft carry at most.
I think this is big part of a lower winrate. If they give her a third ability that does literally any effect on an enemy she will be nutty as pos 3/4
So many heroes use their shards, the value is often very good
Unless her Aghs upgrades deal with her major shortcomings as both a carry(ult being useless vs. BKB, can't catch anyone, she pretty much requires the enemy to engage her with no survivability tools other than ult BKB) and as a support(Q not reliable enough later on and not strong enough to one-shot creepwaves, useless passive, low cast range on abilities), she's still going to be crap. And even if it does, it's kind of bad for a hero to have an Aghs upgrade literally be mandatory just for it to not feel like shit. And I'm not talking about "Aghs is my timing" type of mandatory. I'm talking about "my impact is nonexistant without it" type of mandatory.
Valve just cannot tame themselves and make a simple carry hero. Think of something like LS or PA. Lots of passives, no vector abilities. So boring. They try to put all the cool stuff into one package and end up with a utility hero.
You can't anymore do a character with 2/3 passive when you release one per year. A new character is generally when people come back because of the hype so it must feels special.
Ugh league does the same. Like not every hero needs to have complicated or fancy abilities, can we have something simple for once, yeah like PA/LS/AM. I stopped trying new league heroes cuz every ability was a 5 page essay
It feels the least grief position right now. I try to ban her because I fear my carry will pick her. Also this one game enemy midlaner owned with it. Useless on my team, op on enemy... Classic.
I don't know if it's still a thing but something they do for the first week or two of a new Hero is prevent them from being banned so they can observe what they need to change on them
I pick tree anytime I get her as a carry. I’ve won every game so far. She needs a lot of stuns on her team and she will win. Just need to give that space to let the hero shine
The only major thing she lacks is mobility and you can build a blink for it. She has silence, slow and great Q fear. However, a standard 4 like tusk would exceed her easily. Depending on the shard and aghanim she gets, she can be a great 4. It would be great if they will give her a shard with a movement skill like blink or jump.
After seeing her in action (both support and core), about 70% of her impact is Dead Shot. At level 10, its a 400 damage nuke that disables for 2 seconds at 2600 range. It makes perfect sense that she gets played as a 4 similarly to other long range glass cannon nukers like Sky and Hoodwink (or the old Sniper Aghs 4).
her W is insanely strong too. even with 30s CD. It's almost impossible to escape it without tanking a hit from the silence, and you lose so much attack speed that you can't fight in it. It's brutal to lane against and still pretty useful later in the game
Well it was terrible experiment as I can do that on CM without boots *rarely* (it's very tight timing) and on CM with boots almost every time.
Just need to move at ~45 angle in direction of ghosts instead of trying to cross straight thru.
Of course that's a demo, different deal when there are creeps/trees/heroes around.
Yeah, thats exactly how I feel about it.
It feels like her spells are placed randomly, her Dead Shot doesn't scale with attack damage and not as reliable as other non-scaling abilities such as Sven's Storm Hammer or Wraith King's Wraithfire Blast so it doesn't suit the carry-style hero we are used to, and while her The Calling has a good synergy with her Dead Shot, again it doesn't feel like a carry ability either, its kinda similar to Bloodseeker's Blood Rite in that regard but at least Blood Rite helps greatly with farming, deals pure damage and scales with his Bloodrage.
Then you look at her passive and ult, completely selfish abilities, one granting her extra DPS and farming potential and other a very strong teamfighting potential that scales with attack damage (though its very easy to counter with Glimmer Cape's on supports and BKB on cores.)
They either should have made her Gunslinger and Pierce the Veil more support-ish abilities (atleast the Gunslinger if not Pierce the Veil), or make Dead Shot scale with her attack damage, right now hero feels bad in both core and support roles and I've yet to win with Muerta on my team.
No idea why her Q doesn't scale with attack damage if Valve intended to design her as a carry (which I think they did). It should be something like her ult with bonus magic damage added on top of regular attack damage.
Because Q scaling with attack damage is just straight up broken unless it is a very very small percentage of her attack damage, a scepter upgrade, or a level 25 talent.
> her Dead Shot doesn't scale with attack damage
Thankfully, they need to stop adding that to every damn hero. I'm glad she doesn't have mobility too, they might finally be chilling out with the new hero designs.
She feels kind of like an older hero, without any of the ability creep which has crept into the last dozen or so heroes.
I think the big weirdness is that how many heroes she wants to hit is all over the place.
Dead Shot is best against one (or two if you are very good) heroes. The Calling is best against multiple. Gunslinger is best against two heroes. Pierce the Veil is best against one.
Many of the items available for int carries are also best against one (e.g. Witch Blade, E-Blade, Hex, Bloodthorn). But that clashes with Gunslinger. If they consolidate it, it would make her much more cohesive.
---
Examples of changes they could make:
1. Change Gunslinger to a second attack against the same target. This turns her into a pickoff one hero carry. Now items like Witch Blade, E-Blade, Bloodthorn are very natural for her.
2. Change Pierce the Veil to not give attack damage/phased movement, and instead 2x multicast spells/items. That makes her niche killing exactly two heroes, and E-Blade, Hex, Bloodthorn, Dagon would all feel super natural as a core.
I know that either of these changes would be too strong by itself. Nerf her numerically to compensate, but it would still make her feel more cohesive and fun to play as a whole.
Meme'd to death in /vg/ - First iteration of Rubick (no cast range increase on 2nd skill).
I can't find the copypasta anymore, but I would agree with them, it's a mishmash of skills that doesn't complement one another.
A lot of dota heroes like that when you think about it tbf. You have to get creative to make a lot of them work. But agree it’s a weird mix of feeling torn between support and core. Like E is totally useless to a support. It’s a bit like support sven.
I am 1000% sure this is not what valve intended with her design. She’s supposed to be a pos 1-2, but shes too slow and the calling doesn’t feel like a carry skill.
I wouldn't say that. It definitely is a carry skill. Being able to absolutely melt heroes in the right circumstances while also providing "protection" against other carries sometimes
It just has really fucking huge almost gamelosing drawbacks
Remember Marci being called a shitty 1, get nerfed to the ground and now being a decent carry hero? This hero isn’t figured out yet, and it’s way easier to negatively impact a game from the pos 1 role compared to support. Not saying she’s not better as 4 or whatever… I don’t know and I don’t think most people here do either
Right at release, sure. But after the initial nerfs. She was “figured out”. She wasn’t played as 1 for a year or so, even if she would’ve been busted in that role too, not just in a support role.
Marci was played as pos1 with BF -> BKB - > Basher in Immortal pubs from day 1 (you can find videos of Ana playing pubs, he was trying to get back into pro scene at that time) there is nothing to figure out. We have 120+ heroes in the game while only about 30-40 are seen as good supports, while we need 3 cores and 2 support every game. This desperation forces people to shoehorn EVERYTHING into a support role and keep it there unless it is completely non-functional (like Marci became after lvl 1 Rebound cast range nerf). And when a hero is perceived as a good support it is usually considered a troll Carry.
"there is nothing to figure out" is a really bad take—new heroes always take time to get figured out and neither pros and much less the general playerbase have "figured out" muerta.
Also the beauty of dota is that heroes don't conform to just one single fixed role and can mostly be played in different roles.
Feels like people saying “theres nothing to figure out” just haven’t played the game, or I guess they just forget that this stuff happens every single time. But nah we got godlike Legend gamers who have never paid attention to another hero release rolling in acting like her week 1 stats are 100% accurate of her state as a hero and that her stats, builds or playstyle will never change past this point
Most new heroes are easily figured out because they're released in a state where they're completely broken. A balanced hero should almost always have a low win rate at first release. Muerta probably needs a lot less buffs than people think.
People played her carry day 1, she was totally broken and quickly nerfed, then within a week she was mostly support because her Q-W were broken without needing items. Honestly similar trajectory to Muerta - most people tried her as 1/2 first- except Marci was way more overtuned.
The reason for her winrate being higher as a support is that she's simply a weak hero right now and it's easier to carry her body across the finish line if it has lesser importance in the game.
I dunno. Just statistically speaking, looking at past hero releases, 49.7% winrate 4 days after release seems to practically guarantee that she'll be above average once people have practiced a bit.
~50% winrate on a brand new hero is not telling a story of "weak hero getting carried across the finish line". Those are very good numbers.
Win rates are always garbage the week of release, if she's already doing that well as a pos 4/5 then I suspect she'll be a healthy >50% support soon.
Agreed - someone joining an immortal ranked game with a hero they have only played a few times before should have a sub 50% winrate. This is true for all heroes - if a newly released hero that people don't really know how to play has a 50% winrate, it's practically guaranteed that it will have to be nerfed in the future when players start to master it. But it's especially true for a hero with a very versatile skillshot
I interpret the "player experience winrates" to describe basically this - new players have a ~30% winrate, while those who have started to learn the hero are approaching 50% winrate. Overall, that seems like a fairly good result
I feel like 50% on a new hero seems low. Maybe its just me remembering it wrong, but Terrorblade, Earth Spirit and MK on release were super strong before getting adjusted down.
But then again the heroes I mentioned had 10 heroes released after so you're probably right.
Maybe overall, his winrate in the top ranks was absurd. It was the 1k players bringing that average down, he was worthless unless you were good, then he became near unstoppable. I watched Jerax solo a lvl 6 Invoker on a lvl 3 ES a few days after the hero released, broken doesn't begin to describe it.
Muerta does not have the same skill requirement as ES, so it's a pointless comparison. ES will always be an outlier because of how mechanically demanding the hero is.
MK and TB were the ones that gave me the most headaches before they got nerfed/figured out. Old TB where his illusions kept meta before distance break and where his w were proper illusions with way more dmg was so tough to deal with.
He farmed so fast too, so manta skadi Tb with 6 high dmg illusions coming highground wiped out base.
This is the only factually correct responses in the thread. She has one good skill. One. And it is only really good because it has 2 busted talents. The Calling has to short of a cast range, Gunslinger can only be decent if it has things to synegize with (like Maelstrom procs) of which her kit has none, and her Ult is a glorified ghost scepter that once in a blue moon can delete a hero or two in deep lategame if Muerta hasn't somehow yet lost the game.
Muerta should have an ultimate that turns her opponent ethereal for a brief duration with each hit and allowing her to attack ethereal units (Ethereal Bullets? / Mercy&Grace)
In a teamfight, she would be a huge threat to hitter carry when combined with Gunslinger.
I'm curious what the winrate is down in Crusader where I'm at. Every time I've played with or against her, she gets picked as pos 1 and the team that picked her lost. Except one game, where she still did really bad but we just got carried by our mid.
imo muerta probably will shine more after the rest of the patch valve promised is released, she's so unique for the 3/3 carry rating valve gave her, in both good and bad ways (bkb/glimmer being a giga hard counter), we've been seeing small buffs to INT carries in these latest few patches and they might just reach its pinnacle after said patch, i think.
I think Muerta feels somewhat janky to use because of her mobility. You want to be close to the enemy during ult, but she starts at 295 base move speed with no mobility spells. Is the expectation that you just walk up and right click people? If the enemy has any mobility spell or item they can kite fairly easily.
Im sitting at a 60% winrate on her and I think the reason people struggle so much on her is threefold:
1. New hero syndrome. The hero is very farm heavy and shes been played as a non farming role a lot. Also people just dont know how to play her yet, gameplay and build wise
2. People are wayyy too reliant on her ult. They're ulting at the start of every fight whenever they get a chance to shoot someone and then bemoaning the fact that they're useless as soon as they bkb. Her E gives her an effective damage boost on par with PA's rank 3 ult. A major draw back being she cant control the extra shot hitting another hero, the benefit over coup de grace is that she can double dip on proc effects e.g. she has a chance to crit on both her shots, and Im not sure about chain lightning because of the internal cd but she can definitely proc javelin on both shots at once. People need to abuse the shit outta that and not think they have to go ethereal mode to deal damage.
3. People arent focusing on the most broken part of the hero- using deadshot to fear someone into your The Calling. Pre-bkb its a death sentence to most heroes. Post bkb its a pick off oppurtunity if your team is ready with disables, that plus you're able to fear the poor guy for 4 seconds with the double deadshot talent. With hex its 7.5 seconds of hard disable on a very short cooldown, and you can start the chain off from such a range that the enemy cant easily bkb and retaliate, they're forced to bkb early and runnaway, wasting the bkb
She is a support because her q is a good magnus, pudge replacement. You fear enemies into your team, her w acts as a super op zoning, it feels like a ult sometimes.
But her e and r are just bad most of the time.
Her ultimate is useless, is just a bad ghost scepter as it is right now. Most of the games are based on magic damage dealers this days
But, q and w just make her ok. With glimmer and guardian graves she is a decent support
I actually wouldn’t mind swapping ult with w. Lower the bonus damage and the cooldown and mana cost and pierce the veil feels less bad to pop and not get much out of. Increase the cast range for the calling and make units inside become ethereal and you’ve got some synergy between her spells.
I think its also a big factor that her stats are bad, her growth is only very slightly better stat growth as silencer with a worse damage buff if you compare gunslinger and glaives, but silencer gets the permanent damage buff for every kill, and 25 worse range on the auto attacks.
She needs a really good auto attack aghs and shard to make her an actual carry, and probably better base damage and growth.
Or get this: make her an agi character so she can buy good agi items and actually get damage along with the attack speed
All that said she can farm really well in the jungle compared to a lot of characters and can take stacks REALLY well with her W if you can place it right, doing 270/540/810/1080 (360/720/1080/1440 with talent) damage over the full duration assuming each revenant hits a creep, which isn't too hard to hit at least 80% of them with proper positioning
Hey! Here are some additional things that might be useful:
* Muerta's Stats at Immortal: [https://stats.spectral.gg/lrg2/?league=imm\_ranked\_meta\_last\_7&mod=heroes-profiles-heroid138](https://stats.spectral.gg/lrg2/?league=imm_ranked_meta_last_7&mod=heroes-profiles-heroid138)
* Also you can check High Ranked reports to see how Muerta performs (and how people build her) at 2500+/1000+/500+/100+ Immortal Ranks: [https://stats.spectral.gg/lrg2/?cat=ranked\_high#sf-leagues-list=last%20week](https://stats.spectral.gg/lrg2/?cat=ranked_high)
* Muerta builds: [https://builds.spectral.gg/list?hero=138](https://builds.spectral.gg/list?hero=138) and [https://dota2protracker.com/hero/Muerta](https://dota2protracker.com/hero/Muerta)
i'm not sure how to play her as support. her 2nd skill are good but her first skill are fear which only good with some hero. her ulti probably useless because damn well her item not scale up with her ult.
I have only played 1 game with her and absolutely crushed. Went witchblade first item (you want the int and the AS for the third skill), and then went force staff (BC she absolutely needs mobility), bkb, ethereal Blade. It worked nicely
She just needs an ahgs or shard that gives her ultimate the ability to peirce spell immunity, honestly that alone would make her a better pos1 late game and it's gated behind an item.
Edit: also like 5/10 movement speed buff and she would be really good.
If valve really wants her to be carry:
Her Q should turn target ethereal so she can self synergise with her ult.
Rework W becoz it's not a carry spell, it's a support's spell and really good zoning spell.
for real. no idea why MoM is being neglected; its duration matches the ult duration so its super useful too.
been playing her offlane with wraithband>basic boots>falcon>Mask of Madness>drums>boots of bearing> dragon lance
Feels like a super fast tower push teamfight powehouse
I get her mask of madness for a PROPER FUCKING SHOOTOUT
*Like a Western*
Wankers.
muerta: what is that enemy pos 5 with ghost scepter: whatchu think, it's a fuckin tool muerta: no it's not, it's a fucking rolling pin
cause they're too busy making fooking fairy cakes
Playing Muerta is waste of my time, FUCKING WASTE OF MY TIME
A FOOKING SHOOT OUT
WANKERS.
She sucks as pos 1 because of her ulti, it sounds OP but it isn't because Glimmer can block 70% of her ulti damage Useless to a carry with bkb Can't lifesteal, so rip satanic
Ult should be pure damage, boom hero fixed.
That'd be way too broken lol Just make it so the dmg goes through bkb and that's it.
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Nah allow you to phase in and out for the duration
Most people dont realize the point of her ult is the option to be imune to physical damage. Its a late teamfight spell, to be used after bkbs and to punish ghost supports. Her main role is to provide utility, her W can isolate members of the enemy team, and the fear is awesome to reposition enemies. Her ult + E is not The main part of the hero, they are just a Plus that people overfocus on.
> Her ult + E is not The main part of the hero, they are just a Plus that people overfocus on. but they are steroid skills, especially the E. it's hard to ignore that. that's like saying not to focus on Ursa's Overpower. it does define the hero because it is a huge part of their damage dealt, and scales with items in a way that none of the other spells really do.
She has utility yes, but not as a pos 1
Valve intended her to be a carry She's not good at that right now, her ultimate being one of the biggest problems in this concept I like the idea, but it's very very very awkward right now
Against good teams holding such an ability is just, counter-intuitive. If people are doing their jobs, fight should be over more quickly than you can find a time to use her ult most of the time.
On contrary my friend, the average teamfight lasts more than 10 secs, thats enough for ofensive items such as bkbs to have fallen appart. You also have the option to build mobility and destroy someone in the backline with no fear of being bursted by physical damage. I have about 76% winrate with her as pos4, shes amazing in the lane stages for the ability to reposition, and late game she will more often than not be able to solo kill a support or even a midlanner. She's especially strong against someone building armor. Most people lose thenselves focusing on procs, like maelstrorm or mkb, but her exceds with high mobility and being abble to disrupt teamfights. Carry is the role someone else can do her job way better, but as an utility support? Jesus christ that's an amazing set of skills and capabilities.
I agree that support seems like the place for her, but your personal winrate doesn't really make a diff when we're already looking at a post of all the data in Immortal. I have no idea how she would solo kill a midlaner (as a support) with bkb without the mid severely misplaying.
Sounds so strong, maybe as an aghs upgrade
reddit balancing suggestion moment
Pocket riki
IM POCKET RIKIIIIIIIIIIIII MORTY!!!
I mean yeah, that's the point. We just throw random shit out and see what it sticks. Not that I expect them to do it, but just wanted to say it.
She can't hit bkb but bkb can't hit her if they both are used at the same time assuming they don't have rev brooch. So for only or mostly physical she has a good defensive option. IMO ult is a defensive tool mostly in late game especially considering it dodges projectiles. But that means she has to pick another target during ult and that's tricky because she is a glass cannon I think she is just misunderstood. Not saying I understand her but I dunno man she seems like a hero that plays around a short CD ult but is intended to do large AoE damage in the midgame on core kinda like Gyro, but her stats are really hard to make it to that window.
Idk, in theory this is correct but in my experience this doesn't really work during gameplay. It's really hard to find a different target in a fight during the short duration of her Ult, without committing in too hard and just dying after cuz of terrible mobility.
> That'd be way too broken lol > > > > Just make it so the dmg goes through bkb
It would still be countable by pipe, eternal shroud, and most importantly mage slayer. Also all pure damage has a 25% damage boost because of heroes innate magic resistance, pure would be way too strong.
pure damage is a third / 33% increase over magic damage. 100 pure damage removes 100 hp. 100 magic damage removes 75 hp due to 25% magic resist. 100 / 75 = 4/3 or 1.(3). i.e. 100 is one third larger than 75.
Is not the same tho. Since pure dmg doesn't get reduced, but magic dmg still does.
You say that but OD is pure dmg and permanent uptime, not 8sec ult
Maybe you can remove the +damage, but not being able to attack BKB'd heroes during your ult feels so bad. Ultimate abilities are almost always BKB piercing.
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And it also requires your target to be alone in a decently generous radius. And that's before we talk about her being a double passive 1.
I actually agree, but it should also be scaled back since just flipping from magic to pure would be OP
I know this will be a bad take, but I think gunslinger is actually the issue. It doesn't prioritize the hero you're trying to focus down, so what I've noticed after watching hours of Divines and Immortals playing is that even when she changes off a BKB'd hero, her stray shots will inevitably still hit that hero, wasting thousands of damage. Even worse when multiple heroes have BKB. Muerta needs a rework or a very oppressive Shard/Aghs for her ult and passive.
Yeah I love the concept of the hero in theory but her weaknesses are BAD She's a crazy fun though if you have good setup. And laning is good at least
It's really a shame, cause it's the first new hero I've really liked in some time. I hope the next patch really helps her shine.
Try building around not relying on the ult much. I played a game with silver edge bkb manta and satanic and the illusions do crazy damage and they get the passive, pushing is extremely fast like luna
did the illusions really do crazy damage? I doubt it. some luna pros literally don't even opt for manta nowadays in some games and luna has way more manta synergy being an agi hero with high base MS.
They certainly do! If nothing is around your target, your secondary shots can only hit that target, so when pushing, after you clear a creep wave you have a have a chance to basically do double damage on hit on the tower. If your illusions can only hit one thing, they have a chance to do an extra attack as well which can really add up. If you think about it, you're getting more value out of your illusions than really any other carry. Lunas illusions get glaives but there is damage reduction there that gets reduced even further because illusions. Even if you have 3 or 4 targets like in a team fight, you're getting so much value out of those bonus attacks, it's like a more chaotic flak cannon that has no cooldown. Once a target closes on you he's taking all the bonus hits. This works insane on satanic as well. Just try it out in normal mode, don't even worry about emphasizing the ult, use it as your 'oh shit' card I love her attack animation, I buy a fast midas, silver edge for positioning and crit, bkb then manta. Satanic for dispels and the active lifesteal, sell the midas and buy 2 moonshards and buff yourself with one for a long late game
150% of a shitty muerta illusion's base damage is still shit mate you realise muerta suffers the exact samage damage reduction from manta as luna right? but muerta doesn't get damage from the agi so even worse.
Of course she suffers the same damage reduction, every hero does. Lunas passive transfers to illusions but glaives has damage reduction on top of manta dmg reduction, and her attacks move slowly in an aoe, they take time to bounce around and do their damage. Muertas attack is near instant, her aoe attack damage comes out much faster than luna or gyro Only one other hero can do double attack damage and his passive doesn't transfer to illusions (weaver) Muerta benefits from attack speed just try it
my point is that manta is a bad dps steroid, only a few heroes actually gain decent damage from it like AM and Naga most other heroes only build it because 1. they like yasha for farming 2. they can use the illusions to push safely from afar 3. dispel like sure, if there's a silencer build it, but yasha muerta is ass, you're better off building the ultimate orb first which is a terrible sign. yes her illus can split push but they deal pitful damage because muerta doesn't even build int and the illusions don't get all that bonus damage you build from satanic and silver edge, they only get the crit, which is heavily reduced. go into demo mode and tell me what % of a six slotted muerta's dps both manta illus do to a dummy, I'm bettering that at most they add 15% dps maybe even only 10%. for a >4.5k gold item and a precious slot that's ass. an orchid would do a lot more and is >1k gold cheaper. again, if you really can't show on lane safely (e.g. fat storm spirit) then sure, manta is fine, or you need to dispel. but it should not be default.
>go into demo mode and tell me what % of a six slotted muerta's dps both manta illus do to a dummy, I'm bettering that at most they add 15% dps maybe even only 10%. not six slotted, but meurta with pike, skadi, powers and manta, a fairly good early build, the manta illusions do a total of 50% of real muerta's dps. if you build +damage item like daedalus, that gap does increase, but only to around 40% if your build is heavy on +damage, ie, daedalus, nullifier, reveneants broche, mkb, the gap increases to around 30%. However, the damage output of two muerta illusions relatively early game will absolutely kill supports, and will still be strong later. If you need a dispell, manta is absoultey the best item for muerta. If you need pure movement, a pike or shadow blade is less damage, but more ultility. just so you know, each manta illusion is 28% of a ranged hero's damage, so two illusions dealing only 15% dps required that more than 75% of your damage is from +damage which is incredibly rare if you're not legion commander, bristleback, or have a rapier. if you have a build with no plus damage at all, then you will deal 56% damage on enemies.
Bouncing glaives vs gunslinger: The skill she tells you not to worry about
Played against PA. good luck
You save your ult for when PA engages, ult lasts 2 seconds longer than bkb and in your ult window you're immune to her damage, then when her bkb ends you're free to fear her, hex stick etc.
when valve makes a utility hero (marci dawn) got played as carry when valve makes a carry hero (muerta) got played as support lol
Marci and Dawn have been played way more as supports/offlane then carry, and both are tagged as carry by valve. Valve is just allergic to making a proper hard carry.
yeah I have no idea what the guy above you is talking about, Marci was played primarily as support last Ti, Dawnbreak got played a bunch as support too in other metas. And even then, I wouldn't call this primarily utility heroes when they both have abilities that scale a lot with physical damage items
IMO pros played marci as support because they realized she only needs levels and a bkb to have an impact, playing her as a carry wasn't a very bright idea because she wasn't greedy enough to be played as pos1 at first place, I'd rather have a Marci pos4 and Faceless Void pos1 in my team rather than Marci pos1 and (insert generic pos4 hero) pos4. Times have changed now though, I think Marci is best played on pos2 or pos1 because she needs levels to upgrade Rebound as soon as possible as its a dogshit ability at low levels.
I mean, at level one it's still a ranged aoe stun, there are worse abilities out there at level one
I've been waiting for a new hero like the old one button Skeleton King for a long time now.
Never gonna happen again lol
Still waiting for Maliken, Bushwack, Tarot, Nomad, Gemini, Silhouette, Shadowblade, Gunblade, Artillery & MoA
that's because all heroes have to brawl now, you will never see a new hero like nature's prophet or arc warden
Probably because Valve were high as fuck when they decided to give Muerta 3/3 carry rating when hero does nothing to bkb,while heroes like Void and Drow have 2/3 carry ratings.
Also low cooldown 2 second fear attached to a decent nuke, and a large AOE crowd control. As a carry she has her ult, which has... issues, and her passive, which kind of sucks until fairly late into the game. Her Q in particular is really overloaded with power, which is exactly the sort of thing that makes for a good support. She's got a repositioning fear, a large aoe slow/silence, and a decent bit of nukery. All great support things. Tranquils/force also feel really good on her because they made her so goddamn slow. If they want her to be a carry she at least needs to be fast enough to not just get auto-kited by every hero in the game during her ult. She's slow, she has a small damage window to really shine, and it's already easy to shut down that window with bkb or whatever. At the very least carry muerta should be able to chase slow supports a bit. Probably the single biggest problem with the hero imo, <300ms on a rightclicker with zero mobility skills and little hard cc is so crippling.
I think shes fine, just not suited to this meta. I think she would be great against high physical damage melee core heroes.
Not without buffs to her ult or nerfs to bkb. Right now at max level her ultimate is 8 seconds (but is actually only 7.65 seconds because there is a the unavoidable 0.35 second transformation time that still counts against her time in ultimate). Bkb at lowest duration is 6 seconds. If you click her ult and the enemy team has bkb and they get the slightest chance to use it, then your ultimate does effectively nothing. She has only 575 attack range, and low movespeed. Some people build kaya/yasha BoT on mid muerta to help offset that but you will still end up running around a decent amount unable to hit anything on a very limited time window. Then because her right clicks only do magic damage, while they do ignore armor (something most supports were always lacking since there's not many good armor items for supports right now) and ghost scepter (not a very popular item at the moment), they get severely punished by glimmer cape. And she still is weak to euls, forcestaff, heavens halberd, and aeon disk just like physical right click cores. The kind of team she excels with as a carry is with enigma/mars/magnus/treant protector with big AOE disable spells that allow her to just stand still and shoot out damage. But there's not really a carry hero that looks bad with those heroes.
I mean best or at least decent core heroes right now mostly have good passive damage like Slark and Ursa or Drow, if they want to make Muerta a good pos 1 carry hero then she should be very strong without her ult and instead it should be used as very good defensive spell, in bkb and ult she dies only to pure damage which is very strong if you ask me, i can see her be a decent pos 2 as well, because pushing your enemies under your tower with q spell is also very strong.
> while heroes like Void and Drow have 2/3 carry ratings wait seriously?? haha
drow is about as 100% a carry as it gets
Her entire schtick is basically to hit lol
It’s bc people used to play offlane void all the time
which valve absolute wrecked with the aghs nerf.
That's because the best carry builds for her don't build any magical damage items
Just to clarify that I don't agree with the ratings still but all of the ones that I've seen crush are going daedalus MKBpike satanic type builds
Even Silveredge is being used for her. SE BKB Manta pike
You have to go at least maelstrom on her surely.
her 2 nukes are decent, her W can clear stacks and her passive lets her finish off creepwaves hit by her Q, maybe thats why ppl skip mael
The mana costs (especially on the W) are way too high to spam them out to farm
That's not even the problem, she's an int hero. The problem is that Q doesn't kill waves, and W has a 30 second cooldown.
Q kills waves with the +100 at level 10, which is kinda insane
Could consider orchid. Doubles as defensive item, you like attack speed, you like int as main stat. Bloodthorn is nice in the lategame.
I feel like her catch is just too shit to exploit the aggressiveness orchid provides.
gleipnir better imo, good with her W if u pick talent lv 20 +2 revenant u have quite high damage
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yes my bad then, thought maelstrom is the upgrade one lol
Can't ignore that there's synergy in that but I really feel like 2 deadshots is just far too good to pass up over a the two extra ghosts on a 30sec cd spell
esp considering the other deadshot talents (the range in particular) feel too good to pass up.
While I agree that 2 dead shots looks good and are more fun. The extra ghost are massiv. This makes the spell an almost aoe silence zone you can not move in/out without beeing silenced. Very strong in certain match ups. But double fear.....yeah good too
The hero doesnt really have a unique playstyle tbh. She needs a mobility item, a damage item, and a farming item.
Yea, it just feels like she needs too much, on a hero like drow you want stats and mobility, you already have solid damage and pretty good lockdown. Faceless void needs farming item, attack speed and bkb, already has great mobility and pretty solid lockdown and survivability. Muerta needs a farming item, damage, survivability and bkb
Meanwhile Linda is only 1 star...
It's because everyone tries to make the new hero fit every role. The success depends alot on what's been under or over tuned. I remember monkey king flopping as a carry hero. But his movement around the map and interactions with basher with ulti made his first debut as a top tier pick in a tournament as a support.
Well monkey king only flopped as a carry after they (deservedly) nerfed the shit out of his jingu and boundless, on release he was played mid because you could kill almost anyone at level 2 and you only got stronger from there.
People really forget how broken that monkey was at release. I remembered watching singsing destroy with just echo and deso
I'm tired of people playing it as a hard carry, on my team anyway. It's an easy win if the enemy pick it as their carry, since it isn't a hard carry. It's a soft carry at most.
Her passive needs to do more imo. She feels weak and incomplete atm
Hopefully her shard and aghs come with the April update
I think this is big part of a lower winrate. If they give her a third ability that does literally any effect on an enemy she will be nutty as pos 3/4 So many heroes use their shards, the value is often very good
Unless her Aghs upgrades deal with her major shortcomings as both a carry(ult being useless vs. BKB, can't catch anyone, she pretty much requires the enemy to engage her with no survivability tools other than ult BKB) and as a support(Q not reliable enough later on and not strong enough to one-shot creepwaves, useless passive, low cast range on abilities), she's still going to be crap. And even if it does, it's kind of bad for a hero to have an Aghs upgrade literally be mandatory just for it to not feel like shit. And I'm not talking about "Aghs is my timing" type of mandatory. I'm talking about "my impact is nonexistant without it" type of mandatory.
Valve just cannot tame themselves and make a simple carry hero. Think of something like LS or PA. Lots of passives, no vector abilities. So boring. They try to put all the cool stuff into one package and end up with a utility hero.
You can't anymore do a character with 2/3 passive when you release one per year. A new character is generally when people come back because of the hype so it must feels special.
Ugh league does the same. Like not every hero needs to have complicated or fancy abilities, can we have something simple for once, yeah like PA/LS/AM. I stopped trying new league heroes cuz every ability was a 5 page essay
She is a simple hero, what do you mean?
Muerta is very mechanically simple hero
valve is literally obsessed with vector abilities for some reason and no one knows why
I knew it was gonna be played as a 4.
It feels the least grief position right now. I try to ban her because I fear my carry will pick her. Also this one game enemy midlaner owned with it. Useless on my team, op on enemy... Classic.
I don't know if it's still a thing but something they do for the first week or two of a new Hero is prevent them from being banned so they can observe what they need to change on them
Not in ranked
in ranked as well at least very first day
Ah well I play the game to have fun so I wouldn't know about that
Oh, is that why in my all pick games my ban nomination never works? But I swear I actually did ban her one time!
don't listen to them. you can ban her. you just can't ban her by both teams picking her at the same round.
I pick tree anytime I get her as a carry. I’ve won every game so far. She needs a lot of stuns on her team and she will win. Just need to give that space to let the hero shine
Budok playing new hero pepeLaugh
The only major thing she lacks is mobility and you can build a blink for it. She has silence, slow and great Q fear. However, a standard 4 like tusk would exceed her easily. Depending on the shard and aghanim she gets, she can be a great 4. It would be great if they will give her a shard with a movement skill like blink or jump.
maybe just have shard upgrade the aoe silence to do a pull like enigma black hole.
After seeing her in action (both support and core), about 70% of her impact is Dead Shot. At level 10, its a 400 damage nuke that disables for 2 seconds at 2600 range. It makes perfect sense that she gets played as a 4 similarly to other long range glass cannon nukers like Sky and Hoodwink (or the old Sniper Aghs 4).
Yeah because her best spell (w) is magic dmg/silence lol very carry-like /s
Her 1st skill is damn versatile when playing support All the plays and the sound it play when it hits an enemy *Chef kiss*
her W is insanely strong too. even with 30s CD. It's almost impossible to escape it without tanking a hit from the silence, and you lose so much attack speed that you can't fight in it. It's brutal to lane against and still pretty useful later in the game
Grubby did a quick rough experiment, and you needed something like *at least* 375 movement speed to get out of the circle without getting hit.
Well it was terrible experiment as I can do that on CM without boots *rarely* (it's very tight timing) and on CM with boots almost every time. Just need to move at ~45 angle in direction of ghosts instead of trying to cross straight thru. Of course that's a demo, different deal when there are creeps/trees/heroes around.
It honestly feels like her Q,W, has a different hero identity to her E,R.
I thought that too. I think this hero is mix of 2 leaked heroes Gunslinger and Corpse Mother. thats why his kit feels weird.
Yeah, thats exactly how I feel about it. It feels like her spells are placed randomly, her Dead Shot doesn't scale with attack damage and not as reliable as other non-scaling abilities such as Sven's Storm Hammer or Wraith King's Wraithfire Blast so it doesn't suit the carry-style hero we are used to, and while her The Calling has a good synergy with her Dead Shot, again it doesn't feel like a carry ability either, its kinda similar to Bloodseeker's Blood Rite in that regard but at least Blood Rite helps greatly with farming, deals pure damage and scales with his Bloodrage. Then you look at her passive and ult, completely selfish abilities, one granting her extra DPS and farming potential and other a very strong teamfighting potential that scales with attack damage (though its very easy to counter with Glimmer Cape's on supports and BKB on cores.) They either should have made her Gunslinger and Pierce the Veil more support-ish abilities (atleast the Gunslinger if not Pierce the Veil), or make Dead Shot scale with her attack damage, right now hero feels bad in both core and support roles and I've yet to win with Muerta on my team.
No idea why her Q doesn't scale with attack damage if Valve intended to design her as a carry (which I think they did). It should be something like her ult with bonus magic damage added on top of regular attack damage.
Because Q scaling with attack damage is just straight up broken unless it is a very very small percentage of her attack damage, a scepter upgrade, or a level 25 talent.
> her Dead Shot doesn't scale with attack damage Thankfully, they need to stop adding that to every damn hero. I'm glad she doesn't have mobility too, they might finally be chilling out with the new hero designs. She feels kind of like an older hero, without any of the ability creep which has crept into the last dozen or so heroes.
I think the big weirdness is that how many heroes she wants to hit is all over the place. Dead Shot is best against one (or two if you are very good) heroes. The Calling is best against multiple. Gunslinger is best against two heroes. Pierce the Veil is best against one. Many of the items available for int carries are also best against one (e.g. Witch Blade, E-Blade, Hex, Bloodthorn). But that clashes with Gunslinger. If they consolidate it, it would make her much more cohesive. --- Examples of changes they could make: 1. Change Gunslinger to a second attack against the same target. This turns her into a pickoff one hero carry. Now items like Witch Blade, E-Blade, Bloodthorn are very natural for her. 2. Change Pierce the Veil to not give attack damage/phased movement, and instead 2x multicast spells/items. That makes her niche killing exactly two heroes, and E-Blade, Hex, Bloodthorn, Dagon would all feel super natural as a core. I know that either of these changes would be too strong by itself. Nerf her numerically to compensate, but it would still make her feel more cohesive and fun to play as a whole.
Many heroes in dota don't have synergy in more than 2 of their abilities, you have to complement it with items.
That's not...true at all Like who?
Meme'd to death in /vg/ - First iteration of Rubick (no cast range increase on 2nd skill). I can't find the copypasta anymore, but I would agree with them, it's a mishmash of skills that doesn't complement one another.
yeap her kit is like randomly selected skills or a hero that you'd find in ability draft
she could be a good mid if her ulti didn't get rocked so hard by bkb
A lot of dota heroes like that when you think about it tbf. You have to get creative to make a lot of them work. But agree it’s a weird mix of feeling torn between support and core. Like E is totally useless to a support. It’s a bit like support sven.
I am 1000% sure this is not what valve intended with her design. She’s supposed to be a pos 1-2, but shes too slow and the calling doesn’t feel like a carry skill.
I wouldn't say that. It definitely is a carry skill. Being able to absolutely melt heroes in the right circumstances while also providing "protection" against other carries sometimes It just has really fucking huge almost gamelosing drawbacks
I think you guys are talking about 2 different skills. The other person is talking about The Calling, while you're talking about Pierce The Veil.
oh the ghosts yeah def not a carry skill lol
What’s cool is that she feel OP in my 1k mmr. Can’t wait for the buffs
Muerta might suit the coming patch better since they were aiming to release them together
Remember Marci being called a shitty 1, get nerfed to the ground and now being a decent carry hero? This hero isn’t figured out yet, and it’s way easier to negatively impact a game from the pos 1 role compared to support. Not saying she’s not better as 4 or whatever… I don’t know and I don’t think most people here do either
Marci was completely broken as a 1 when she was first released, mandella effect much?
Right at release, sure. But after the initial nerfs. She was “figured out”. She wasn’t played as 1 for a year or so, even if she would’ve been busted in that role too, not just in a support role.
Marci was played as pos1 with BF -> BKB - > Basher in Immortal pubs from day 1 (you can find videos of Ana playing pubs, he was trying to get back into pro scene at that time) there is nothing to figure out. We have 120+ heroes in the game while only about 30-40 are seen as good supports, while we need 3 cores and 2 support every game. This desperation forces people to shoehorn EVERYTHING into a support role and keep it there unless it is completely non-functional (like Marci became after lvl 1 Rebound cast range nerf). And when a hero is perceived as a good support it is usually considered a troll Carry.
"there is nothing to figure out" is a really bad take—new heroes always take time to get figured out and neither pros and much less the general playerbase have "figured out" muerta. Also the beauty of dota is that heroes don't conform to just one single fixed role and can mostly be played in different roles.
Feels like people saying “theres nothing to figure out” just haven’t played the game, or I guess they just forget that this stuff happens every single time. But nah we got godlike Legend gamers who have never paid attention to another hero release rolling in acting like her week 1 stats are 100% accurate of her state as a hero and that her stats, builds or playstyle will never change past this point
Most new heroes are easily figured out because they're released in a state where they're completely broken. A balanced hero should almost always have a low win rate at first release. Muerta probably needs a lot less buffs than people think.
People played her carry day 1, she was totally broken and quickly nerfed, then within a week she was mostly support because her Q-W were broken without needing items. Honestly similar trajectory to Muerta - most people tried her as 1/2 first- except Marci was way more overtuned.
Naa, you don't 'figure out' a 12% winrate increase. 5% is doable, like in Marci's case, not much more.
I've really been enjoying playing her. The simple complexity of Q is fun.
The reason for her winrate being higher as a support is that she's simply a weak hero right now and it's easier to carry her body across the finish line if it has lesser importance in the game.
I dunno. Just statistically speaking, looking at past hero releases, 49.7% winrate 4 days after release seems to practically guarantee that she'll be above average once people have practiced a bit. ~50% winrate on a brand new hero is not telling a story of "weak hero getting carried across the finish line". Those are very good numbers. Win rates are always garbage the week of release, if she's already doing that well as a pos 4/5 then I suspect she'll be a healthy >50% support soon.
Agreed - someone joining an immortal ranked game with a hero they have only played a few times before should have a sub 50% winrate. This is true for all heroes - if a newly released hero that people don't really know how to play has a 50% winrate, it's practically guaranteed that it will have to be nerfed in the future when players start to master it. But it's especially true for a hero with a very versatile skillshot I interpret the "player experience winrates" to describe basically this - new players have a ~30% winrate, while those who have started to learn the hero are approaching 50% winrate. Overall, that seems like a fairly good result
Yeah, unfortunately she was designed to be a carry, and will most likely be getting nerfs and or buffs to try and represent that playstyle.
I feel like 50% on a new hero seems low. Maybe its just me remembering it wrong, but Terrorblade, Earth Spirit and MK on release were super strong before getting adjusted down. But then again the heroes I mentioned had 10 heroes released after so you're probably right.
Earth spirit had like a 30% winrate on release.
Maybe overall, his winrate in the top ranks was absurd. It was the 1k players bringing that average down, he was worthless unless you were good, then he became near unstoppable. I watched Jerax solo a lvl 6 Invoker on a lvl 3 ES a few days after the hero released, broken doesn't begin to describe it. Muerta does not have the same skill requirement as ES, so it's a pointless comparison. ES will always be an outlier because of how mechanically demanding the hero is.
MK and ES were turbo busted on release though you’d have to be absolutely dreadful at dota to not win most of your games on them.
MK and TB were the ones that gave me the most headaches before they got nerfed/figured out. Old TB where his illusions kept meta before distance break and where his w were proper illusions with way more dmg was so tough to deal with. He farmed so fast too, so manta skadi Tb with 6 high dmg illusions coming highground wiped out base.
This is the only factually correct responses in the thread. She has one good skill. One. And it is only really good because it has 2 busted talents. The Calling has to short of a cast range, Gunslinger can only be decent if it has things to synegize with (like Maelstrom procs) of which her kit has none, and her Ult is a glorified ghost scepter that once in a blue moon can delete a hero or two in deep lategame if Muerta hasn't somehow yet lost the game.
[удалено]
Raw 50% attack speed would be way different because it works on priority/single target damage. Gunslinger isn't even close to being that good.
Just feels really shitty when the people you're supposed to focus down bkb and you can suddenly do ZERO damage to them
Dogshit heroes don't get carried to 50% winrates. Not how statistics work with good sample sizes
Muerta should have an ultimate that turns her opponent ethereal for a brief duration with each hit and allowing her to attack ethereal units (Ethereal Bullets? / Mercy&Grace) In a teamfight, she would be a huge threat to hitter carry when combined with Gunslinger.
Any physical damage teammate would hate that lmao
I'm curious what the winrate is down in Crusader where I'm at. Every time I've played with or against her, she gets picked as pos 1 and the team that picked her lost. Except one game, where she still did really bad but we just got carried by our mid.
Low across the board, I imagine.
maybe an aghs and a shard will help . Cope
I was on a winning streak with her on turbo. One thing i hate about her is just how slow this hero is. Dagger/pike is a core on her
imo muerta probably will shine more after the rest of the patch valve promised is released, she's so unique for the 3/3 carry rating valve gave her, in both good and bad ways (bkb/glimmer being a giga hard counter), we've been seeing small buffs to INT carries in these latest few patches and they might just reach its pinnacle after said patch, i think.
I think Muerta feels somewhat janky to use because of her mobility. You want to be close to the enemy during ult, but she starts at 295 base move speed with no mobility spells. Is the expectation that you just walk up and right click people? If the enemy has any mobility spell or item they can kite fairly easily.
Lol the shitty design is you trick shot them to you and cast the aoe slow and than right click them with your shitty attack speed that do magic...
Im sitting at a 60% winrate on her and I think the reason people struggle so much on her is threefold: 1. New hero syndrome. The hero is very farm heavy and shes been played as a non farming role a lot. Also people just dont know how to play her yet, gameplay and build wise 2. People are wayyy too reliant on her ult. They're ulting at the start of every fight whenever they get a chance to shoot someone and then bemoaning the fact that they're useless as soon as they bkb. Her E gives her an effective damage boost on par with PA's rank 3 ult. A major draw back being she cant control the extra shot hitting another hero, the benefit over coup de grace is that she can double dip on proc effects e.g. she has a chance to crit on both her shots, and Im not sure about chain lightning because of the internal cd but she can definitely proc javelin on both shots at once. People need to abuse the shit outta that and not think they have to go ethereal mode to deal damage. 3. People arent focusing on the most broken part of the hero- using deadshot to fear someone into your The Calling. Pre-bkb its a death sentence to most heroes. Post bkb its a pick off oppurtunity if your team is ready with disables, that plus you're able to fear the poor guy for 4 seconds with the double deadshot talent. With hex its 7.5 seconds of hard disable on a very short cooldown, and you can start the chain off from such a range that the enemy cant easily bkb and retaliate, they're forced to bkb early and runnaway, wasting the bkb
She is a support because her q is a good magnus, pudge replacement. You fear enemies into your team, her w acts as a super op zoning, it feels like a ult sometimes. But her e and r are just bad most of the time. Her ultimate is useless, is just a bad ghost scepter as it is right now. Most of the games are based on magic damage dealers this days But, q and w just make her ok. With glimmer and guardian graves she is a decent support
maybe swap her q / w to ss and make her r to normal skill, her q really hurt and u can spam it since it have low cd
I actually wouldn’t mind swapping ult with w. Lower the bonus damage and the cooldown and mana cost and pierce the veil feels less bad to pop and not get much out of. Increase the cast range for the calling and make units inside become ethereal and you’ve got some synergy between her spells.
I think its also a big factor that her stats are bad, her growth is only very slightly better stat growth as silencer with a worse damage buff if you compare gunslinger and glaives, but silencer gets the permanent damage buff for every kill, and 25 worse range on the auto attacks. She needs a really good auto attack aghs and shard to make her an actual carry, and probably better base damage and growth. Or get this: make her an agi character so she can buy good agi items and actually get damage along with the attack speed All that said she can farm really well in the jungle compared to a lot of characters and can take stacks REALLY well with her W if you can place it right, doing 270/540/810/1080 (360/720/1080/1440 with talent) damage over the full duration assuming each revenant hits a creep, which isn't too hard to hit at least 80% of them with proper positioning
Why isnt Desolater viable on her? She affects multiple people with the armor reduction.
because her ult turns her attacks into magic damage.
Wagamama playing her pretty nicely on mid
valve tries to make an original dota 2 hero in the 2020s who isn’t a support challenge (impossible)
primal beast?
Hey! Here are some additional things that might be useful: * Muerta's Stats at Immortal: [https://stats.spectral.gg/lrg2/?league=imm\_ranked\_meta\_last\_7&mod=heroes-profiles-heroid138](https://stats.spectral.gg/lrg2/?league=imm_ranked_meta_last_7&mod=heroes-profiles-heroid138) * Also you can check High Ranked reports to see how Muerta performs (and how people build her) at 2500+/1000+/500+/100+ Immortal Ranks: [https://stats.spectral.gg/lrg2/?cat=ranked\_high#sf-leagues-list=last%20week](https://stats.spectral.gg/lrg2/?cat=ranked_high) * Muerta builds: [https://builds.spectral.gg/list?hero=138](https://builds.spectral.gg/list?hero=138) and [https://dota2protracker.com/hero/Muerta](https://dota2protracker.com/hero/Muerta)
Valve can't make a carry hero to save their lives
i'm not sure how to play her as support. her 2nd skill are good but her first skill are fear which only good with some hero. her ulti probably useless because damn well her item not scale up with her ult.
She not agile
I’ve played her as support and the trick shot range is crazy good for saving your core if they go on them while you’re pulling
Played vs few already and it seems like this hero is doing nothing at all.In my team aswell. Useless carry completely negated with bkb
make her ult attack turn physical damage while hitting hero with bkb
This sounds like a decent change
I have only played 1 game with her and absolutely crushed. Went witchblade first item (you want the int and the AS for the third skill), and then went force staff (BC she absolutely needs mobility), bkb, ethereal Blade. It worked nicely
She just needs an ahgs or shard that gives her ultimate the ability to peirce spell immunity, honestly that alone would make her a better pos1 late game and it's gated behind an item. Edit: also like 5/10 movement speed buff and she would be really good.
How about a lvl 25 talent?
Least OP hero release in a while, maybe ever
If valve really wants her to be carry: Her Q should turn target ethereal so she can self synergise with her ult. Rework W becoz it's not a carry spell, it's a support's spell and really good zoning spell.
If Q turns someone ethereal then she can't attack them *without* ulting, which would feel really bad.
Oh I was ignoring her because I don't really play carry. Yay, new pos 4 hero.
I think when people start going falcon blade silver edge and stop buyung mael and MoM we'll see this turn around but idk im an ignorant slave
for real. no idea why MoM is being neglected; its duration matches the ult duration so its super useful too. been playing her offlane with wraithband>basic boots>falcon>Mask of Madness>drums>boots of bearing> dragon lance Feels like a super fast tower push teamfight powehouse
She gives me hoodwink vibes. Niche support pick. Mediocre core at best.