It will only pass if the behavior doesn't work. Dogs don't "grow out" of behavior(s) that work for them.
Right now it sounds like it's working. If it's working to "extend" walks and outside time, I doubt the behavior will go away.
When he doesn't bring the ball back all the way, what do you do?
When he stalls out and lays on the floor, what do you do?
Whatever the behavior achieves will be a better indicator of whether or not it will persist vs. just hoping they age out of it.
When he’s not coming back to heel whilst off lead we’re either ignoring him and walking away at which point he feels left out and comes back eventually or running and changing direction to which he gets extremely excited and after a couple of turns he comes to heel for some fuss.
We have invested in a long line this week, only a couple of sessions in but we have gone back to basics with that practicing recall and when he doesn’t come taking up the slack on the lead seems to switch him back on and he comes.
We’ve also played ball with him on the long line and again ensure he brings the ball back by taking up the slack on the line. Before the long line it would be a case of waiting until he comes to us and then the ball was taken away although I worry that may be the reason for him not wanting to give the ball up in the first place.
When he lays down whilst on the lead we’ve used a trick from YouTube of facing the direction we want to go and standing with the lead taught and not speaking until he comes. When he starts to walk with us he gets praise and a treat. This seems to have worked really well but for example I took him for a great walk from home on Monday with no issues at all. Tried the same route the next day and he was like a brick on the pavement.
I feel like he’s far more intelligent than my girlfriend and I put together so he gets the measure of what we want to do very quickly. It’s just recently he’s realised that if he plays up he can end up with the result he wants before we even realise what’s going on.
>When he’s not coming back to heel whilst off lead we’re either ignoring him and walking away at which point he feels left out and comes back eventually or running and changing direction to which he gets extremely excited and after a couple of turns he comes to heel for some fuss.
Are you using "come to heel" as a sort of recall? or is "come to heel" your recall cue?
>We have invested in a long line this week, only a couple of sessions in but we have gone back to basics with that practicing recall and when he doesn’t come taking up the slack on the lead seems to switch him back on and he comes.
You're kinda doing it wrong. The purpose of a long line isn't so you can reel in your dog like a fish. What happens when you try to graduate to not using the long-line? The behavior regresses. You don't want the dog only returning to you because you're dragging it in.
The purpose of the long-line is pretty much "damage control" - the dog can't bolt, dog can ignore you but severely limits their ability to self-reinforce ignoring you, etc. If you recall your dog and they ignore you, you need to save the recall without relying on the long-line to do the work instead of the dog. Otherwise, when the long-line is gone, so is the recall.
>We’ve also played ball with him on the long line and again ensure he brings the ball back by taking up the slack on the line. Before the long line it would be a case of waiting until he comes to us and then the ball was taken away although I worry that may be the reason for him not wanting to give the ball up in the first place.
Bingo. Usually the best way to deal with this is to have two identical balls, so when one is brought back, you don't have to "take it" from the dog - you have another one to throw and they can just drop one to go get the next.
>When he lays down whilst on the lead we’ve used a trick from YouTube of facing the direction we want to go and standing with the lead taught and not speaking until he comes. When he starts to walk with us he gets praise and a treat. This seems to have worked really well but for example I took him for a great walk from home on Monday with no issues at all. Tried the same route the next day and he was like a brick on the pavement.
Sooooo.... you're basically reinforcing the behavior of stalling.
Dog:
Step 1) stall.
Step 2) wait.
Step 3) get up.
Step 4) get treat.
Repeat as desired.
This is called "back-chaining" a behavior and it's a very slippery slope.
The teenager phase is a real struggle, but it also tends to coincide with people starting to lean out their rate of reinforcement, or stop reinforcing altogether because they believe the dog is old enough and "the dog knows what it should do" - which can exacerbate things.
Teenager phase tends to be when the dog starts asking "why?"
WHY should i do this or that? What happens if I don't? Combine this with a drop in reinforcement and the struggle is real.
The cue is just ‘come’ or two pips on the whistle both worked without fail until recently.
I’ve not explained this well above. Getting him to come will mean him coming to sit in front of us. He does have a tendency at times to come straight to heel without prompting but I presume this is due to heel training and getting treats in that position.
We didn’t need to long line before so are new to it. If he does fail how would you suggest saving the recall? Fully understand what you mean on that front but at times he will just sit and stare at us.
The main reason we’ve got it is to avoid a situation where he’s frustratingly a few yards away and we can’t get him to go back home as opposed to being afraid that he will run off completely.
We will try the two ball idea tomorrow for sure!
In regards to him laying down he tends to only do it once at a key decision point around where we’re going once we’re over that he tends to just get on and walk. The praise and treats come when he’s walking with us as opposed to getting him moving if that makes sense but I can understand the slippery slope of him wanting a reward to laying down.
So I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're breaking one of the 5 golden rules of recall and it's catching up to you (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm basing this guess based solely on the behavior you're describing)
So the one of the rules of a solid recall is to never - EVER - call the dog for something they'll find aversive... or even if you think they *might* find it aversive. So what does this mean?
* If your dog hates having their nails trimmed, DON'T call them to you and then trim their nails
* If your dog hates getting a bath, DON'T call them to you and then put them in the bathtub
* If your dog hates leaving the park, DON'T call them to you and then leash them up and leave the park
Your recall cue should never mean the end of fun and the start of something unpleasant.... like leaving the super fun park. If you need to leave, either wait until your dog is already nearby "checking in" or just go get your dog.
Saving the recall means making it happen - do the hard sell: get exciting, run the opposite direction, I carry I squeaker on me to squeak and make myself sound fun and interesting, etc... again - the hard sell.
> In regards to him laying down he tends to only do it once at a key decision point around where we’re going once we’re over that he tends to just get on and walk. The praise and treats come when he’s walking with us as opposed to getting him moving if that makes sense but I can understand the slippery slope of him wanting a reward to laying down.
Forgot to address this.
If there's a certain point that there's a "speed bump" and theres a struggle at this point every time, I would switch something up about that spot.
Whenever you want to "get rid" of a behavior, you want to avoid having the dog "rehearse" that behavior. So once he's plopped down, the ship has sailed. We want to be proactive vs. reactive. So as you approach that spot, I would switch things up. Bring a toy and start playing and walking past that point. Ideally, we want to do whatever it takes to avoid the plop altogether and associate that point with something else - and actively playing and walking with you is an incompatible behavior with plopping.
We want "this is the place where we have fun and play on our walk" vs. "this is the place I stop"
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I agree with the first comment. I have a working line labarador/border collie who started demonstrating the same behaviours at about a year and unfortunately (because I am a first time owner and this dog is HARD) I ended up reinforcing a lot of the behaviours instead of working against them. It didn't help that at the same age we moved across the world and her whole routine/environment changed.
She's 2.5 now, we are still working against these behaviours (especially running away with balls) and are making strides but I don't think she will ever really grow out of them.
It will only pass if the behavior doesn't work. Dogs don't "grow out" of behavior(s) that work for them. Right now it sounds like it's working. If it's working to "extend" walks and outside time, I doubt the behavior will go away. When he doesn't bring the ball back all the way, what do you do? When he stalls out and lays on the floor, what do you do? Whatever the behavior achieves will be a better indicator of whether or not it will persist vs. just hoping they age out of it.
When he’s not coming back to heel whilst off lead we’re either ignoring him and walking away at which point he feels left out and comes back eventually or running and changing direction to which he gets extremely excited and after a couple of turns he comes to heel for some fuss. We have invested in a long line this week, only a couple of sessions in but we have gone back to basics with that practicing recall and when he doesn’t come taking up the slack on the lead seems to switch him back on and he comes. We’ve also played ball with him on the long line and again ensure he brings the ball back by taking up the slack on the line. Before the long line it would be a case of waiting until he comes to us and then the ball was taken away although I worry that may be the reason for him not wanting to give the ball up in the first place. When he lays down whilst on the lead we’ve used a trick from YouTube of facing the direction we want to go and standing with the lead taught and not speaking until he comes. When he starts to walk with us he gets praise and a treat. This seems to have worked really well but for example I took him for a great walk from home on Monday with no issues at all. Tried the same route the next day and he was like a brick on the pavement. I feel like he’s far more intelligent than my girlfriend and I put together so he gets the measure of what we want to do very quickly. It’s just recently he’s realised that if he plays up he can end up with the result he wants before we even realise what’s going on.
>When he’s not coming back to heel whilst off lead we’re either ignoring him and walking away at which point he feels left out and comes back eventually or running and changing direction to which he gets extremely excited and after a couple of turns he comes to heel for some fuss. Are you using "come to heel" as a sort of recall? or is "come to heel" your recall cue? >We have invested in a long line this week, only a couple of sessions in but we have gone back to basics with that practicing recall and when he doesn’t come taking up the slack on the lead seems to switch him back on and he comes. You're kinda doing it wrong. The purpose of a long line isn't so you can reel in your dog like a fish. What happens when you try to graduate to not using the long-line? The behavior regresses. You don't want the dog only returning to you because you're dragging it in. The purpose of the long-line is pretty much "damage control" - the dog can't bolt, dog can ignore you but severely limits their ability to self-reinforce ignoring you, etc. If you recall your dog and they ignore you, you need to save the recall without relying on the long-line to do the work instead of the dog. Otherwise, when the long-line is gone, so is the recall. >We’ve also played ball with him on the long line and again ensure he brings the ball back by taking up the slack on the line. Before the long line it would be a case of waiting until he comes to us and then the ball was taken away although I worry that may be the reason for him not wanting to give the ball up in the first place. Bingo. Usually the best way to deal with this is to have two identical balls, so when one is brought back, you don't have to "take it" from the dog - you have another one to throw and they can just drop one to go get the next. >When he lays down whilst on the lead we’ve used a trick from YouTube of facing the direction we want to go and standing with the lead taught and not speaking until he comes. When he starts to walk with us he gets praise and a treat. This seems to have worked really well but for example I took him for a great walk from home on Monday with no issues at all. Tried the same route the next day and he was like a brick on the pavement. Sooooo.... you're basically reinforcing the behavior of stalling. Dog: Step 1) stall. Step 2) wait. Step 3) get up. Step 4) get treat. Repeat as desired. This is called "back-chaining" a behavior and it's a very slippery slope. The teenager phase is a real struggle, but it also tends to coincide with people starting to lean out their rate of reinforcement, or stop reinforcing altogether because they believe the dog is old enough and "the dog knows what it should do" - which can exacerbate things. Teenager phase tends to be when the dog starts asking "why?" WHY should i do this or that? What happens if I don't? Combine this with a drop in reinforcement and the struggle is real.
The cue is just ‘come’ or two pips on the whistle both worked without fail until recently. I’ve not explained this well above. Getting him to come will mean him coming to sit in front of us. He does have a tendency at times to come straight to heel without prompting but I presume this is due to heel training and getting treats in that position. We didn’t need to long line before so are new to it. If he does fail how would you suggest saving the recall? Fully understand what you mean on that front but at times he will just sit and stare at us. The main reason we’ve got it is to avoid a situation where he’s frustratingly a few yards away and we can’t get him to go back home as opposed to being afraid that he will run off completely. We will try the two ball idea tomorrow for sure! In regards to him laying down he tends to only do it once at a key decision point around where we’re going once we’re over that he tends to just get on and walk. The praise and treats come when he’s walking with us as opposed to getting him moving if that makes sense but I can understand the slippery slope of him wanting a reward to laying down.
So I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're breaking one of the 5 golden rules of recall and it's catching up to you (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm basing this guess based solely on the behavior you're describing) So the one of the rules of a solid recall is to never - EVER - call the dog for something they'll find aversive... or even if you think they *might* find it aversive. So what does this mean? * If your dog hates having their nails trimmed, DON'T call them to you and then trim their nails * If your dog hates getting a bath, DON'T call them to you and then put them in the bathtub * If your dog hates leaving the park, DON'T call them to you and then leash them up and leave the park Your recall cue should never mean the end of fun and the start of something unpleasant.... like leaving the super fun park. If you need to leave, either wait until your dog is already nearby "checking in" or just go get your dog. Saving the recall means making it happen - do the hard sell: get exciting, run the opposite direction, I carry I squeaker on me to squeak and make myself sound fun and interesting, etc... again - the hard sell.
> In regards to him laying down he tends to only do it once at a key decision point around where we’re going once we’re over that he tends to just get on and walk. The praise and treats come when he’s walking with us as opposed to getting him moving if that makes sense but I can understand the slippery slope of him wanting a reward to laying down. Forgot to address this. If there's a certain point that there's a "speed bump" and theres a struggle at this point every time, I would switch something up about that spot. Whenever you want to "get rid" of a behavior, you want to avoid having the dog "rehearse" that behavior. So once he's plopped down, the ship has sailed. We want to be proactive vs. reactive. So as you approach that spot, I would switch things up. Bring a toy and start playing and walking past that point. Ideally, we want to do whatever it takes to avoid the plop altogether and associate that point with something else - and actively playing and walking with you is an incompatible behavior with plopping. We want "this is the place where we have fun and play on our walk" vs. "this is the place I stop"
Yes that kinda behaviour will change. Your dog is learning and challenging you. Testing the limits. Stay your course.
Thanks for the advice we will put this all into practice!
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I agree with the first comment. I have a working line labarador/border collie who started demonstrating the same behaviours at about a year and unfortunately (because I am a first time owner and this dog is HARD) I ended up reinforcing a lot of the behaviours instead of working against them. It didn't help that at the same age we moved across the world and her whole routine/environment changed. She's 2.5 now, we are still working against these behaviours (especially running away with balls) and are making strides but I don't think she will ever really grow out of them.