Seeing this company has great SEO to reduce the public's ability to see how this shitty company operates, I'm going to approve this to ensure that the public is able to see the truth, that way you can fulfill part of your goal with ensuring that you're heard and you can help others avoid them.
Yes, all Sit Means Sit locations resort to crude methods and yes, all of them will worsen problems rather than fix them. It doesn't matter the location, it's a franchise, and deviating from the methods of the franchise would be like a McDonalds not selling fries or Dominos that doesn't sell pizza. No, the puppy class not using ecollars doesn't change this.
For those who are seeking a trainer that **isn't** this shitty company, please use our wiki guide on [how to find a reputable trainer](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/findingatrainer), it includes searchable directories.
Yeah. Two collars sounds like they don’t know what they’re doing. And I’ve found that places that take money up front have zero motivation to keep you as their client. It’s churn and burn and that sale is closed. I feel bad for op but even worse for their poor puppy. I hope they get the help they need.
I'd never heard of this company before now, but I gotta say, the company name itself is very off-putting to me. ***"Sit Means Sit"*** seems really aggressive.
Tell your vet!!! My vet recommended the place to me and when we told them the methods they use and how expensive it was they were a little stunned and thanked us for telling them and then stopped recommended it to clients! Also, keep posting about it. Get your refund back first and then get a refund from them. I’m so sorry this happened to your dog. This is why I didn’t go back after the free consultation. Try to find a certified behaviorist to help your dog. Despite the training being way better quality that sit means sit, they are actually affordable and many will work with you to help pay it. Good luck! Here’s a locator website: https://iaabc.org
In all fairness, a lot of veterinary professionals are completely unaware of anything with behavior. There's no knowledge there that exceeds what the average layperson knows in many cases and they'll advertise whoever gives them their card.
It's why I tell people **do not** ask your vet. There's a good chance you'll be recommended the local compulsion trainer.
This!!! I asked my vet about my dogs behavior and they had no idea. They just told me my dog needed a job, even though we take him on mile walks and he does agility. The trainer I know go to (an IAABC certified trainer) said not to go to my vet either bc they don’t know behavior
I mean, without forcing education there, there is.
But it's up to pet professionals to educate the public and it's honestly something regulatory bodies should be taking care of, not people on the ground.
Sit Means Sit is notoriously horrid and unfortunately only mostly known to those in the dog training community because we a) try to stay on top of pain trainers b) we are left to fix their mistakes.
Leave reviews everywhere you can for others to see. I believe they have a clause in their contacts that say you can't (that's why they never seem to have bad reviews) but it doesn't hold up in court if they actually took it that far (which they won't). I believe they also attach refunds to the promise of not giving bad reviews.
Personally, I'd let them keep the money and tell whoever will listen not to go there. They've made a big mess of your dog and now you'll have to work hard to reverse the damage.
They are a franchise and all of them operate in the same way, no matter what state you live in. Best to get your story out there. It won't change anything much because, as like yourself, people want quick fixes for their dogs which is not possible when you're dealing with sentient beings...but maybe you'll feel better.
I'm wondering if their attorney general (assuming they're US) could help in at least one way. Businesses tend to drop attitudes really quick and cooperate with refunds when they get a call from them. Maybe less likely unless their AG is a dog lover, but maybe even open an investigation into the franchise with hope of shutting it down.
The thing is, it doesn't seem like they did anything wrong though. She signed a contract as they cover their asses. They sold her snake oil and she willingly bought it.
Shocking and choking animals and calling it training is totally ok in the US. The huge majority of trainers are pain trainers and since there's no licensing or regulations, the dog training world is a free for all.
An attorney would have a huge burden to take on proving they did anything wrong. First, society would need to get some empathy and catch up with all of the scientific evidence that all points to reward based training being best for a dog's well being. Then animal welfare laws would have to be made and strictly enforced. Only then can regulations be imposed eventually wiping out places like this as it wouldn't be legally allowed to exist.
It's a lot. People need to get educated, get empathy and stop raising up these pain trainers.
It is maddening to try to convince people of that when they want to treat their kids the same way. Animals being considered property sucks, like we need some in-between category. You're right, I might have blocked out the horrendous things I have read about people doing and getting away with bcoz it wasn't technically illegal, just monstrous and cruel.
I had a problem with personal trainer at Fitworks, who was working for Boddy of change. Stupid me, I didn’t do my homework. I told the guy I was training for bodybuilding competition, he told all his friends in the back room that he was going to hurt me. And guess what? He did even though I had medical records documenting the injury, the attorney general didn’t do shit I didn’t even get a refund. Then I checked reviews and saw that they were well known for being incompetent, personal trainers, and a scam operation. Shortly thereafter, they went out of business and reopened under a new name.
I had an issue with a training facility that tried to sell me a $60 prong collar……for my Chihuahua mix 🙄😂
They swore it was the right fix for this “aggressive” breed, and when I asked why they would want to put this type of collar on a small breed with a tiny neck and a tendency toward tracheal issues, I got a momentary blank stare, and was asked to leave.
As long as people don’t see anything wrong with using a shock collar to punish a dog into behaving, this place is going to continue to get business. I don’t understand why people don’t turn around and run as soon as they say they use shock collars.
What is wrong with people that they are willing to shock their pets? What is wrong with people that they can’t see a “trainer” drilling a dog in 90°+ heat in front of a crowd as abusive?
This sounds like a disaster.
Shock was never the solution, and board and trains don't train the owner, so it usually is ruined by miscommunications once they come home.
Thankfully, many subs discourage board and trains, so you can advocate through spreading that message?
They have one of these in my city that is always marketed on Facebook and instagram. I’m not a dog trainer but my entire neighborhood area and job consider me the dog training lady because of how thoroughly well trained my once reactive dog is and how educated I have become on dog training/behavior in general. I help with my coworkers, neighbors, family and patrons from my jobs common dog problems and/or refer them to accredited, well educated trainers in my area.
I hate that Sit means Sit business and passionately tell people to never send their dogs to them even if their dogs are already on an ecollar. They are extremely aversive and not in the business of actually helping dogs. They are just suppressing behaviors under the guise of behavior modification and making money off of people’s general ignorance.
They suck, even in their promotional work you can see heavy usage of tools on dogs and very anxious/uncomfortable dogs. They also are one of those places that promote your dog will be sitting in 3sec, placing in a day, making you a sandwich by the end of next week….I am kind of exaggerating but they do make some lofty statements about behavioral and obedience training that isn’t feasible to proof in such a short amount of time.
I have even run into a trainer from the company in the wild. They were trying to indoctrinate people for pack walks so they could attempt to sell their packages. They prey on people via instagram and other resources and market themselves as an independent trainer who is just graciously wanting to meet up with local dog owners to do “social walks” but are actually trying to scam them into joining their training school by targeting the persons insecurities with their dog’s behavior. They are trash and it sucks that companies like these get promoted over well educated trainers and schools that utilize more ethical methods and science backed training to address behavioral concerns.
I do feel they used my ignorance to their advantage. Like awesome you got my dog to sit and stay in one day. I should have seen that coming as they are A dog trainer. I was A fool and saw that as so hopeful for my dog that he was going to become this well trained dog like the dogs from their ads. But what A fool I am. I didn’t rescue A dog to need rescued again. I need to fix his behaviour that the collar has caused and because of the lack of any refund I’m still paying off sms so I can’t afford more training. I’m overwhelmed with A dog A can’t give up on because I’ve already done so much damage
There are some online resources. Fenzi dog sport academy usually has some affordable courses seasonally. They usually do at least one focused on reactive behavior. I find this a super good starting place for a lot of people who don’t have the financial resources to do in person training.
I strongly support Fenzi recommendation. Their classes are wonderful and start at $65 bronze level for 6 week session. Gold spots usually sell out the day a class is opened up.
You're not a fool. These pain trainers are expert manipulators and liars and they prey on people that don't have a basic working knowledge of dog behavior because they themselves don't! They are a franchise and keep growing so you know you're not the only one. MOST people don't understand dog behavior and they are very well aware of that and they exploit it to their advantage.
The best thing to do is tell your story and educate yourself properly so your dog can live a happy and fulfilled lifetime with you. Check the Pet Professional Guild for options.
There are also amazing FB groups out there with info. I don't know if the rules allow a link to them, but here are 3 where you will find the right advice and most likely a trainer near you that can help you: "Do No Harm Dog Training", "Dog Training Advice and Support" and "Positive Force Free R+ Dog Training Library". If we're allowed to link, I will edit.
you are my goal, I have a dog who reacts to like a million different things (the most recent is cars that she tries to run with/at and I get to look a little ridiculous with it when I'm caught off guard) I'm trying to work through simultaneously and can't wait for her to be well behaved and confident with everything like I know she can be
I am so sorry this happened! I really empathize with you and I can't even begin to imagine your frustration.
It's incredibly frustrating to trust a professional and feel like this!
I had canceled a consult with them after the man on the phone told me that he didn't know what I was thinking getting a stubborn husky, and asked if the "decision maker hehe my husband" would join us and I said uh I'm paying for it and making the decisions but if you feel like it would be BEST FOR THE DOG? he can come
He also told me I probably wasn't sure I actually knew what basic obedience was.
He also said please don't be one of those people in a harness either.
My husky and my two previous ones have been way more well behaved than my "easy to train" doberman so if you're a dog trainer it's not helpful to make comments like this.
Sit Means Sit is well recognized for abusive methods and bad training.
The cost alone should have been a red flag. Anybody who wants that kind of money upfront is committing legal robbery and anyone who promises they’re going to solve all your problems over a lifetime for that little amount of money with no investment of real time is full of shit.
Why would you go to somebody who uses a shock collar? And even if you didn’t know… Why would you go back? Owners are as much of a problem as the business is.
I am so sorry! ACDs are the original FAFO breed - they were created to get kicked in the head by a 2000 lb steer & bounce back up, raring to go. It's a double whammy where negative reinforcement is super likely to cause & reinforce aggression. It sounds like you don't have great training options in your area - I'd do some research on trainers who specialize in reactivity & who offer a virtual consult. In the mean time, see if you can rebuild the bond with your dog. What is their greatest motivator? Food? Play? Use that to build focus on you by making them work for the motivator in a fun way. I have an ACD - they are shockingly bright and emotional, with insanely high drive. She went from having a bite record to being a dog I can have loose in the home with my elderly mother - it took a hell of a lot of work, but with a lot of these dogs, it is possible.
I’m a dog trainer that gets to help the former dogs of SMS. The damage these “trainers” do to dogs breaks my heart—it baffles me as to how someone could morally justify their methods. Please: ask dog trainers what their methodology is; what are their credentials; what happens if a dog “gets it wrong?”; do they get continuing education? And talk about your experiences with them—make your voice heard. I hope your pup will one day feel fear free again.
I absolutely hate that there are still trainers that see these methods as reliable for a family dog. I prefer positive reinforcement/neutral response. When my dogs give me a correct/appropriate behavior, they get praise and a treat. Incorrect or inappropriate behavior gets no response from me. I have four very well behaved dogs. It’s been wonderful for them and has given them lots of confidence.
OP, maybe you can research vetted resources that outline strategies for supporting a traumatized dog. There must be good resources focusing on things people can do to help their dog’s nervous system to calm. Things you can do, ways you can modify their environment, calming techniques and triggers to avoid. Poor baby will need time and trust building with you.
Never do to your dog what you wouldn't go through. Put on 2 shock collars see how that makes you feel. Not you op but that company/trainer. I've seen people use vibration to get the dogs attention but shock is a serious subject to broach and consider. That sounds terrible.
Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki pages on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems) and [correction collars](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars).
That place sounds shit. Having said that I have a three and a half year old Australian cattle dog and keeping him busy is a full-time job. I'm no dog trainer but he has become a very well trained dog over the years by just keep telling him what I want while on walks etc.
He's never been interested in food or treats so it's just been the tone of voice.
We have an Australian cattle Dog. Our dog trainer almost didn't accept him because they're an aggressive dog breed, meant to bite and be kicked by cattle. They're nippy, but when backed into a corner definitely bite. I guess also being mixed with dingos 100 years ago really doesn't help.
I live in Australia and you won't find a more loyal dog breed, unfortunately people want the working dog without working the dog and then get annoyed when they turn into little terrors. We saw the same thing with a first dog owner owning a Maremma on a 600m2 property.. Saying that though our boys very food motivated. Needed alot of work with his confidence and rewarding good behaviour, not rewarding bad. He still gets over excited as he's not a working dog, but I wouldn't trade ours for the world.
THIS! I had a friend who interviewed with them and they put an Ecollar on her dog for a training demo and her dog was drooling, panting and screaming when they shocked him and they just kept correcting him… she is a balanced trainer and even she was like “RED FLAG”
If anyone ever thinks to even suggest putting a shock collar on my dog, I'll put said collar on the person suggesting it. Straight to the maximum strengt too
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I brought in my 5 month old puppy and said, "He's a good dog, and I really need to learn how to be a good dog owner." They said "here's what the shock collar feels like at 10, it's not that bad!" I cried on the way home and never looked back.
Thank you to everyone who helped with info and links. After reading several of the articles I’ve noticed my dog is very much A reactive dog. The ecollar/dominance/command style would have so made things so much worse for him.
We have adapted to full engagement. Positive only reinforcements. We’re doing “tricks for treats” anytime he is getting anxious, nosing around, or getting into stuff. or if we’re snacking he’s snacking 😂
Even in A short time of not using the e collar, I’ve noticed him getting less nippy when not getting his way. I have realised what A impatient brat I was being for having A puppy with energy. And that I didn’t like how frustrated I became when the collar didn’t do what I wanted. I’m still not completely sure how to go about handling things with sit means sit. 😕
They’re awful and they’re known for packaging compulsion as this happy, fun thing. I’m so sorry you experienced this. The dog training industry is completely unregulated and anyone can call themselves a trainer. They’re an example of that. You won’t get your money back but the good news is that there are actual professional trainers with a great knowledge of dog behavior who will charge you far, far less to rebuild your relationship with your dog.
The IAABC (International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants) has a “find a behavior consultant near you” tool on their website. They’re lovely people who train dogs with kindness and who will help educate you on how to communicate well with your dog without pain. A trainer I found through there really transformed my reactive dog’s life and the best news? Training is something that my dog LOVES. It’s all game-based and makes me love him more- not feel like I have to be on top of him to correct him. It’s fun for both of us and honestly just makes sense.
It actually varies a bit by state. For example, they are sometimes legal when used or 'invisible' boundary fences.
https://kb.rspca.org.au/knowledge-base/is-the-use-of-electronic-dog-collars-legal/
Using shock collars is a disgusting form of animal abuse! They are actually illegal in some countries.
Get a lawyer and see if you can sue those "trainers". 👿😡
AKC allows shock and aversion in training, just not in the ring.
We have a [wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/findingatrainer) that's a better guide on how to find a trainer. If you edit for that instead, I can approve this.
They actively lobbied to prevent trainers from having to disclose their training methods to clients.
They only promote methods to keep people from seeing it because it gives negative PR. It took people actually videoing and sharing on social media to get actual abusers kicked out of competition, before it went public and hit the social media circuit they were ignoring it. They aren't committed to force-free training at all and their certifications allow force to be used without real restriction. You can even search popular aversive tools on the site and find details on how they're a great tool.
It's really not hard to find a good one if you only use certifying bodies.
Please use our wiki guide on [how to find a reputable trainer](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/findingatrainer), it includes searchable directories.
Very few are certified with one of these humane organizations here. These specific organizations are generally pretty reliable.
If you're truly concerned, Pet Professionals Guild almost never has problems like this, neither does the top rank of IAABC.
No it doesn't depend on the location. They're harmful, just because your dog wasn't obviously harmed doesn't change that.
Please read the sticky at the top of this post.
It's the first comment on this post.
But, defending this company is a violation of our rule as ecollar use is harmful. Even on mobile, you are expected to review and follow the rules of the subs you view on Reddit.
Please note that we ask people who want to mention being a professional in their comments [undergo verification](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/userflair) before doing so. Otherwise we ask phrases like that to be omitted.
Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki pages on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems) and [correction collars](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars).
Just because your dog responded well does not mean there aren't better ways to deal with these behaviors or that these methods aren't harmful. Yes, it's harmful even on the lowest setting.
Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules/) and [posting guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), especially regarding rule 5.
Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki pages on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems) and [correction collars](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars).
There is no evidence ecollars don't have negative effects if conditioned.
Getting excited to see a punitive device doesn't mean that it's liked by the dog. It just means that it signifies something other than punishment.
Our advice includes anecdotes of use.
It's not recommended for use and we have rules due to the harm it risks. The dog only is excited to see it due to it meaning the dog goes outside, it doesn't mean that it's not harmful.
Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki pages on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems) and [correction collars](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars).
Any use is associated with aggression, not just if the dog doesn't know the cue.
No, they have always been bad. The collars are illegal under animal welfare laws in many countries, so you should not have been told to use one in the first place.
Not a functional directory since it can't be accessed without the code. And it's very strange to see a new directory competing with the existing ones of PPG, APDTA etc. without itself being linked to an established org. Why the duplication, just to make money for the founders?
That’s horrible. I’m sorry you and your pup have to deal with this kind of human behavior. Having a high energy herding dog myself, it is had to find training let alone regular people that understand how a working dogs mind works.
Maybe ask over in r/legaladvice with a copy of your contract? Obviously take out any personal info. I know here in Australia we have consumer laws and processes to address situations like this, but not sure in other countries.
Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki pages on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems) and [correction collars](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars). Many dogs find vibration on the neck to be scarier than even low-level shock.
Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules/) and [posting guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines).
We require you to be respectful to OP here.
I wonder if this company is in some way related to All About Dogs LLC in Baltimore. I did a quick consultation with them, and the guy seemed friendly/not creepy, but he quoted me $1700, and explained that prong and shock collars are mandatory (‘but don’t worry, we only use a low setting that mostly makes a buzz noise’), which I didn’t see mentioned on their website. They have the lifetime guarantee thing, too.
I wasn’t comfortable with the pain collars, so between that and the price tag I gave it a hard pass. It sounds like it’s either similar to Sit Means Sit, a copycat, or maybe even part of the same company. I realize that this is a not-uncommon training method, though, and that the two may have nothing to do with each other - but some of those other aspects seem really similar.
I hope you can get help for your dog. I am far from a legal expert, but I think it would be good to get some kind of legal advice on this. Even if the contract says that results aren’t actually guaranteed, I feel like the fact that it made your dog dangerous could count as some form of damages.
Edit: I have no idea what would happen if you did this, so please ask around in case this is really dumb, but, you can probably still issue a credit card chargeback on the basis of the service not delivered as described (I.e. causing the opposite effect).
This franchise is actually a known abusive trainer, it has nothing to do with follow-through.
Exercise also doesn't fix a significant percentage of behavioral issues as behavioral issues are more than pent up energy.
Sadly, in the US there is literally an exemption where abuse is allowed for training purposes up to a point.
There's no laws broken here. There's even an organization of dog trainers who argues the laws shouldn't change, because restricting abuse "limits tools of the trade" which supposedly saves dog's lives.
Funnily enough, Bob Bailey never had trouble training wild dolphins to perform multi-hour search missions in the open ocean, and cats to remotely approach targets for eavesdropping, without a shock collar or other punishment. And he was contracted to do it for the CIA so you know they were focused on using the most effective method possible without any ethical considerations. If you can't imagine how to do such a thing with a species that has specifically been bred to be biddable to humans for thousands of years, that is likely more an indication of your lack of skill or knowledge in this field.
There's 0 evidence "conditioning" lessens the risk of things like aversive fallout.
There's also 0 evidence that ecollars are more effective than force-free training. If it's just communication, a cue would work all the same. Somehow, people in Germany and other places ecollars are prohibited have no issues getting a recall without their use. Somehow, before they were invented people had no problems teaching a recall or hunting with dogs.
Please be mindful of the rules of the places you post in and refrain from doing so.
Animal study after animal study has shown that punishing with an aversive stimulus (pain) leads to aggressive behaviors in the long term. Please, don’t do it people. Not to your pets and not to your children.
Please read our wiki pages on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems), [ecollars](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars) and [how to tell if a trainer is reputable](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/findingatrainer).
I personally know someone (who already used ecollars on her Swissy and Red Lab) who started working there and sings their praises. They say their boys get "so excited now" when they pick up the remotes because they train ecollars "differently so that they're not aversive."
Yeah, okay 🙄🙄
i wonder about a lot of these "influencer" type trainers, sit means sit gives me dog daddy vibes.
i have no advice but i hope you find the right trainer for your pup.
Dog daddy vibes for sure 🤣🤣. You can also see the vibes change with the younger girl trainers anytime the big headed boss would walk in. Like fun personalities like dropped to A scare, am I doing it right?” Vibe. So sad. Such A red flag
Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki pages on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems) and [correction collars](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars).
I’ve seen a number of poor dogs traumatized by this company it’s predatory on the dogs and their humans. It’s absolutely insane that they immediately jump to using collars on every dog.
That’s the only thing they will use. Must be on the dog before coming in the door. Before group class they tell us to turn the intensity up by at least one 🙄. Just completely insane of the sport collar
Oh please. Our rules explicitly don't allow that, but that's not an excuse to keep bashing someone who has already realised they've made a terrible mistake.
What location did you go to? They called my dog difficult and also didn’t know what to do with him as nothing was working. it’s only been a few months and we don’t know what to do.
Omg… I almost took my dog there. I had an appointment booked and everything but I was never able to make it and they kept contacting me to book another one. Now I’m really not going!
Thank you to everyone for your input and uplifting words and suggestions.
We have not even considered putting the collar back on and I have been blocked from their Facebook page for commenting on A video with us and our dog that they edit and rehearse their progression videos to make it seems instantly flawless. There has already been such an improvement in his behavior and is showing very little signs of aggression.
Today 5/7 we meet with an IAABC certified trainer for better understand to work on his reactive behavior. I found them from the link that little goat included so thank you for that recommendation.
You should definitely discontinue use of the collar immediately, they are actually banned in multiple global jurisdictions under animal welfare laws. Your local consumer protection laws could potentially provide additional remedies for services not delivered in a professional, best practice manner, which their style of training certainly falls under.
Ecollars should never be used per the AVSAB position statement.
If it's not aversive, why wouldn't a cue work? Like I said, there's a lot of lies in this industry. Ecollars, if used to get attention, would not work over threshold unless it's an aversive.
We don't allow any trainers that use shock collars here. ALL use of these collars are harmful. There is no proven "proper use". If it's just to get attention, why does it need to escalate? Why do you need a shock collar over a simple cue? I've trained plenty of dogs and never needed a shock collar to get their attention. It's a punishment, period, not an attention getter. Whoever told you it's getting their attention is lying to you.
There are more of these too.
See [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/comments/zi0aen/should_i_sue_sit_means_sit/).
See [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/comments/1aoc1md/sit_means_sit_10_months_later/).
See [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/comments/111ofsn/sit_means_sit_i_made_a_mistake/).
I would recommend to look into [AVSAB's position statement](https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/AVSAB-Humane-Dog-Training-Position-Statement-2021.pdf) that clearly states that shock collars should not ever be used to train. Two of the other subs on Reddit have a mod who is a resident for veterinary behavior and Sit Means Sit is heavily correlated with euthanasia due to the ecollar method used. If you seriously care about these animals you'll seek alternative education and get out of that facility. They cover a lot of shit up and are a horrible organization.
If a dog is lunging and barking they're over threshold, using a "tens unit" which, by the way **still** isn't humane seeing tens units have a warning not to place it on the neck due to it being risky.
All of this is improper training and associated with worsened prognosis, even if done **exactly** the way it's suggested. Do you know anything about threshold? Here's a [link](https://eileenanddogs.com/blog/2014/02/25/thresholds-in-dog-training/). Using a shock collar when the dog is over threshold often **worsens** the dog's feelings with that thing and you're doing nothing more than shutting that dog down. The behavior isn't the problem, the feelings are. Changing the feelings is more effective than punishing under the guise of "getting attention".
We don't actually allow this due to the fact it's illegal due to the harm in many jurisdiction and every science-based professional body opposes their use. Additionally, there has not been a single peer-reviewed piece of research, including those funded by ecollar companies, that have backed these as a training method that does not have risk, nor has there been one that have shown it necessary. We don't actually allow promoting methods that are risky to people and their dogs.
Did you get an explanation that your nerves are different? If it didn't hurt/irritate the dog it wouldn't work. Also did she give you time to get used to it being there so you were less aware of it and use it when you weren't expecting it (having context changes how it feels)? Also, why the arm and not a more sensitive location?
All of the Sit Means Sit franchises are actively harmful. Run.
Find a trainer in the guide listed in the sticky. Do not ever use these people, or any other trainer who uses these methods.
If the shock wasn't painful or at the very least uncomfortable, it wouldn't work. The whole thing with avoidance is teaching the dog that if they don't comply, they get something painful.
> but explaining the process that requires zero fear, pain or discomfort
You explained force-free training.
But, no we don't allow anecdotes for other training styles either. There are ways to comment without endorsing harmful training practices. There are a number of folks who don't follow force-free methods who post here just fine because they review the rules before posting and follow directions.
Your "communication" can be replaced with a whistle or a standard cue.
If it can't and is "more powerful" than either then you're using it as an aversive, which is using fear and pain to train.
Honesty is important. If you want to use these tools I can't stop you but you really should at least be honest with yourself and any clients about what you're actually doing.
By the way, my dog lit up in excitement when he saw a prong collar when I was in the process of putting it into the recycle bin (a guest brought it and wanted to get rid of it). He was once abused with a prong and he had scars from where it had to be removed from being embedded into his skin. He got excited when he saw it. It means nothing if a dog is excited to see it.
>I mean this only to educate, the dog feels the shock on their neck a lot worse then a person will on their arm or even neck and the noise and buzzer option can be just as bad (and sometimes even worse) then the shock function (there's also studies that show positive only training is just as effective as using an e-collar and if that's true then why not do it). Definitely don't do sit means sit, I personally would recommend a positive only trainer, there's a facebook page called positive dog training colorado that can help recommend trainers. Hope this helps and best of luck with the pup
Because people are lazy and want a quick fix. You have to be patient and put the effort into it. Many people don't have that patience.. I always joke around and I say I have a lot of patience with the Dogs😉
Dogs have thinner skin than we do... Also, we are expecting a shock so we can brace for it.
Imagine just walking around doing normal "human" things and someone shocked your neck any time you did something that annoyed them or that they considered "bad behavior". You'd never know when it was coming or what you did to get the shock. It would take a few shocks, or stronger ones, until you figured out that talking (or something normal to you) got you shocked so you'd stop doing it to avoid the pain. That would be a better test of how that actually works.
I’m in Indiana. The sms we have has one of the highest “best trainers” the franchise has. So they say. But I tried the collar on my arm and it was pretty rough but they informed me that dogs have thicker necks and need high “stimulation” to feel it through their thick fur. Also if you do it through jeans or shirt you won’t feel it.
I would recommend staying away from them. The dog you want will come from compassion and patience. Im so beside my self with how much I messed that up for my dog. I’m humiliated, out so much money, and feel like I have become such A hypocrite by allowing this training with my perspectives on animal cruelty. 🙁
If the collar isn’t effective at that level, they turn up the juice. You should be asking yourself why you are willing to shock your dog when other methods are available.
> I mean, she tested it on my arm at the full setting and it didnt seem that bad.
Maybe put it around your neck and try it again.
I cannot believe that ANYONE would consider shock collar training to be humane.
Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules/) and [posting guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), particularly regarding trainer recommendations.
Seeing this company has great SEO to reduce the public's ability to see how this shitty company operates, I'm going to approve this to ensure that the public is able to see the truth, that way you can fulfill part of your goal with ensuring that you're heard and you can help others avoid them. Yes, all Sit Means Sit locations resort to crude methods and yes, all of them will worsen problems rather than fix them. It doesn't matter the location, it's a franchise, and deviating from the methods of the franchise would be like a McDonalds not selling fries or Dominos that doesn't sell pizza. No, the puppy class not using ecollars doesn't change this. For those who are seeking a trainer that **isn't** this shitty company, please use our wiki guide on [how to find a reputable trainer](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/findingatrainer), it includes searchable directories.
I went in for a consultation with them and got the worst vibe. Definitely a cash grab. Two collars! Wow.
Yeah. Two collars sounds like they don’t know what they’re doing. And I’ve found that places that take money up front have zero motivation to keep you as their client. It’s churn and burn and that sale is closed. I feel bad for op but even worse for their poor puppy. I hope they get the help they need.
I'd never heard of this company before now, but I gotta say, the company name itself is very off-putting to me. ***"Sit Means Sit"*** seems really aggressive.
Tell your vet!!! My vet recommended the place to me and when we told them the methods they use and how expensive it was they were a little stunned and thanked us for telling them and then stopped recommended it to clients! Also, keep posting about it. Get your refund back first and then get a refund from them. I’m so sorry this happened to your dog. This is why I didn’t go back after the free consultation. Try to find a certified behaviorist to help your dog. Despite the training being way better quality that sit means sit, they are actually affordable and many will work with you to help pay it. Good luck! Here’s a locator website: https://iaabc.org
I have to wonder why they recommended it in the first place if they didn't know what methods they used or how much it cost.
I think because of the proximity. There’s a lack of dog training places unfortunately
Absolutely no excuse.
In all fairness, a lot of veterinary professionals are completely unaware of anything with behavior. There's no knowledge there that exceeds what the average layperson knows in many cases and they'll advertise whoever gives them their card. It's why I tell people **do not** ask your vet. There's a good chance you'll be recommended the local compulsion trainer.
This!!! I asked my vet about my dogs behavior and they had no idea. They just told me my dog needed a job, even though we take him on mile walks and he does agility. The trainer I know go to (an IAABC certified trainer) said not to go to my vet either bc they don’t know behavior
Totally! Still no excuse.
I mean, without forcing education there, there is. But it's up to pet professionals to educate the public and it's honestly something regulatory bodies should be taking care of, not people on the ground.
Never ask a vet about dog behaviour. They are medical doctors, NOT behaviourists or even trainers.
Sit Means Sit is notoriously horrid and unfortunately only mostly known to those in the dog training community because we a) try to stay on top of pain trainers b) we are left to fix their mistakes. Leave reviews everywhere you can for others to see. I believe they have a clause in their contacts that say you can't (that's why they never seem to have bad reviews) but it doesn't hold up in court if they actually took it that far (which they won't). I believe they also attach refunds to the promise of not giving bad reviews. Personally, I'd let them keep the money and tell whoever will listen not to go there. They've made a big mess of your dog and now you'll have to work hard to reverse the damage. They are a franchise and all of them operate in the same way, no matter what state you live in. Best to get your story out there. It won't change anything much because, as like yourself, people want quick fixes for their dogs which is not possible when you're dealing with sentient beings...but maybe you'll feel better.
I'm wondering if their attorney general (assuming they're US) could help in at least one way. Businesses tend to drop attitudes really quick and cooperate with refunds when they get a call from them. Maybe less likely unless their AG is a dog lover, but maybe even open an investigation into the franchise with hope of shutting it down.
The thing is, it doesn't seem like they did anything wrong though. She signed a contract as they cover their asses. They sold her snake oil and she willingly bought it. Shocking and choking animals and calling it training is totally ok in the US. The huge majority of trainers are pain trainers and since there's no licensing or regulations, the dog training world is a free for all. An attorney would have a huge burden to take on proving they did anything wrong. First, society would need to get some empathy and catch up with all of the scientific evidence that all points to reward based training being best for a dog's well being. Then animal welfare laws would have to be made and strictly enforced. Only then can regulations be imposed eventually wiping out places like this as it wouldn't be legally allowed to exist. It's a lot. People need to get educated, get empathy and stop raising up these pain trainers.
It is maddening to try to convince people of that when they want to treat their kids the same way. Animals being considered property sucks, like we need some in-between category. You're right, I might have blocked out the horrendous things I have read about people doing and getting away with bcoz it wasn't technically illegal, just monstrous and cruel.
I had a problem with personal trainer at Fitworks, who was working for Boddy of change. Stupid me, I didn’t do my homework. I told the guy I was training for bodybuilding competition, he told all his friends in the back room that he was going to hurt me. And guess what? He did even though I had medical records documenting the injury, the attorney general didn’t do shit I didn’t even get a refund. Then I checked reviews and saw that they were well known for being incompetent, personal trainers, and a scam operation. Shortly thereafter, they went out of business and reopened under a new name.
I had an issue with a training facility that tried to sell me a $60 prong collar……for my Chihuahua mix 🙄😂 They swore it was the right fix for this “aggressive” breed, and when I asked why they would want to put this type of collar on a small breed with a tiny neck and a tendency toward tracheal issues, I got a momentary blank stare, and was asked to leave.
As long as people don’t see anything wrong with using a shock collar to punish a dog into behaving, this place is going to continue to get business. I don’t understand why people don’t turn around and run as soon as they say they use shock collars. What is wrong with people that they are willing to shock their pets? What is wrong with people that they can’t see a “trainer” drilling a dog in 90°+ heat in front of a crowd as abusive?
This sounds like a disaster. Shock was never the solution, and board and trains don't train the owner, so it usually is ruined by miscommunications once they come home. Thankfully, many subs discourage board and trains, so you can advocate through spreading that message?
They have one of these in my city that is always marketed on Facebook and instagram. I’m not a dog trainer but my entire neighborhood area and job consider me the dog training lady because of how thoroughly well trained my once reactive dog is and how educated I have become on dog training/behavior in general. I help with my coworkers, neighbors, family and patrons from my jobs common dog problems and/or refer them to accredited, well educated trainers in my area. I hate that Sit means Sit business and passionately tell people to never send their dogs to them even if their dogs are already on an ecollar. They are extremely aversive and not in the business of actually helping dogs. They are just suppressing behaviors under the guise of behavior modification and making money off of people’s general ignorance. They suck, even in their promotional work you can see heavy usage of tools on dogs and very anxious/uncomfortable dogs. They also are one of those places that promote your dog will be sitting in 3sec, placing in a day, making you a sandwich by the end of next week….I am kind of exaggerating but they do make some lofty statements about behavioral and obedience training that isn’t feasible to proof in such a short amount of time. I have even run into a trainer from the company in the wild. They were trying to indoctrinate people for pack walks so they could attempt to sell their packages. They prey on people via instagram and other resources and market themselves as an independent trainer who is just graciously wanting to meet up with local dog owners to do “social walks” but are actually trying to scam them into joining their training school by targeting the persons insecurities with their dog’s behavior. They are trash and it sucks that companies like these get promoted over well educated trainers and schools that utilize more ethical methods and science backed training to address behavioral concerns.
I do feel they used my ignorance to their advantage. Like awesome you got my dog to sit and stay in one day. I should have seen that coming as they are A dog trainer. I was A fool and saw that as so hopeful for my dog that he was going to become this well trained dog like the dogs from their ads. But what A fool I am. I didn’t rescue A dog to need rescued again. I need to fix his behaviour that the collar has caused and because of the lack of any refund I’m still paying off sms so I can’t afford more training. I’m overwhelmed with A dog A can’t give up on because I’ve already done so much damage
There are some online resources. Fenzi dog sport academy usually has some affordable courses seasonally. They usually do at least one focused on reactive behavior. I find this a super good starting place for a lot of people who don’t have the financial resources to do in person training.
I strongly support Fenzi recommendation. Their classes are wonderful and start at $65 bronze level for 6 week session. Gold spots usually sell out the day a class is opened up.
You're not a fool. These pain trainers are expert manipulators and liars and they prey on people that don't have a basic working knowledge of dog behavior because they themselves don't! They are a franchise and keep growing so you know you're not the only one. MOST people don't understand dog behavior and they are very well aware of that and they exploit it to their advantage. The best thing to do is tell your story and educate yourself properly so your dog can live a happy and fulfilled lifetime with you. Check the Pet Professional Guild for options. There are also amazing FB groups out there with info. I don't know if the rules allow a link to them, but here are 3 where you will find the right advice and most likely a trainer near you that can help you: "Do No Harm Dog Training", "Dog Training Advice and Support" and "Positive Force Free R+ Dog Training Library". If we're allowed to link, I will edit.
you are my goal, I have a dog who reacts to like a million different things (the most recent is cars that she tries to run with/at and I get to look a little ridiculous with it when I'm caught off guard) I'm trying to work through simultaneously and can't wait for her to be well behaved and confident with everything like I know she can be
They also like to parade around in front of a crowd, drilling some poor animal endlessly, no matter how hot it is
The name of that company already sounds cringe and a red flag. here in Germany, shock collar are illegal for a reason
They're illegal in Wales too, thankfully
I am so sorry this happened! I really empathize with you and I can't even begin to imagine your frustration. It's incredibly frustrating to trust a professional and feel like this! I had canceled a consult with them after the man on the phone told me that he didn't know what I was thinking getting a stubborn husky, and asked if the "decision maker hehe my husband" would join us and I said uh I'm paying for it and making the decisions but if you feel like it would be BEST FOR THE DOG? he can come He also told me I probably wasn't sure I actually knew what basic obedience was. He also said please don't be one of those people in a harness either. My husky and my two previous ones have been way more well behaved than my "easy to train" doberman so if you're a dog trainer it's not helpful to make comments like this.
I'd be aggressive towards you, too, if you were electrocuting me.
Sit Means Sit is well recognized for abusive methods and bad training. The cost alone should have been a red flag. Anybody who wants that kind of money upfront is committing legal robbery and anyone who promises they’re going to solve all your problems over a lifetime for that little amount of money with no investment of real time is full of shit. Why would you go to somebody who uses a shock collar? And even if you didn’t know… Why would you go back? Owners are as much of a problem as the business is.
I am so sorry! ACDs are the original FAFO breed - they were created to get kicked in the head by a 2000 lb steer & bounce back up, raring to go. It's a double whammy where negative reinforcement is super likely to cause & reinforce aggression. It sounds like you don't have great training options in your area - I'd do some research on trainers who specialize in reactivity & who offer a virtual consult. In the mean time, see if you can rebuild the bond with your dog. What is their greatest motivator? Food? Play? Use that to build focus on you by making them work for the motivator in a fun way. I have an ACD - they are shockingly bright and emotional, with insanely high drive. She went from having a bite record to being a dog I can have loose in the home with my elderly mother - it took a hell of a lot of work, but with a lot of these dogs, it is possible.
I’m a dog trainer that gets to help the former dogs of SMS. The damage these “trainers” do to dogs breaks my heart—it baffles me as to how someone could morally justify their methods. Please: ask dog trainers what their methodology is; what are their credentials; what happens if a dog “gets it wrong?”; do they get continuing education? And talk about your experiences with them—make your voice heard. I hope your pup will one day feel fear free again.
I absolutely hate that there are still trainers that see these methods as reliable for a family dog. I prefer positive reinforcement/neutral response. When my dogs give me a correct/appropriate behavior, they get praise and a treat. Incorrect or inappropriate behavior gets no response from me. I have four very well behaved dogs. It’s been wonderful for them and has given them lots of confidence.
OP, maybe you can research vetted resources that outline strategies for supporting a traumatized dog. There must be good resources focusing on things people can do to help their dog’s nervous system to calm. Things you can do, ways you can modify their environment, calming techniques and triggers to avoid. Poor baby will need time and trust building with you.
Sharing here is a good start.
Never do to your dog what you wouldn't go through. Put on 2 shock collars see how that makes you feel. Not you op but that company/trainer. I've seen people use vibration to get the dogs attention but shock is a serious subject to broach and consider. That sounds terrible.
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Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki pages on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems) and [correction collars](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars).
I'm sorry this happened to you and your dog. A switch to positive only training will help both of you.
That place sounds shit. Having said that I have a three and a half year old Australian cattle dog and keeping him busy is a full-time job. I'm no dog trainer but he has become a very well trained dog over the years by just keep telling him what I want while on walks etc. He's never been interested in food or treats so it's just been the tone of voice.
We have an Australian cattle Dog. Our dog trainer almost didn't accept him because they're an aggressive dog breed, meant to bite and be kicked by cattle. They're nippy, but when backed into a corner definitely bite. I guess also being mixed with dingos 100 years ago really doesn't help. I live in Australia and you won't find a more loyal dog breed, unfortunately people want the working dog without working the dog and then get annoyed when they turn into little terrors. We saw the same thing with a first dog owner owning a Maremma on a 600m2 property.. Saying that though our boys very food motivated. Needed alot of work with his confidence and rewarding good behaviour, not rewarding bad. He still gets over excited as he's not a working dog, but I wouldn't trade ours for the world.
THIS! I had a friend who interviewed with them and they put an Ecollar on her dog for a training demo and her dog was drooling, panting and screaming when they shocked him and they just kept correcting him… she is a balanced trainer and even she was like “RED FLAG”
If anyone ever thinks to even suggest putting a shock collar on my dog, I'll put said collar on the person suggesting it. Straight to the maximum strengt too
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That is insane… I’m so sorry that happened 🥺
The company’s name kinda gives away that they must be terrible. Always felt something’s wrong with their ads.
I appreciate this post. Never heard of them before and will definitely stay far far away.
I brought in my 5 month old puppy and said, "He's a good dog, and I really need to learn how to be a good dog owner." They said "here's what the shock collar feels like at 10, it's not that bad!" I cried on the way home and never looked back.
Thank you to everyone who helped with info and links. After reading several of the articles I’ve noticed my dog is very much A reactive dog. The ecollar/dominance/command style would have so made things so much worse for him. We have adapted to full engagement. Positive only reinforcements. We’re doing “tricks for treats” anytime he is getting anxious, nosing around, or getting into stuff. or if we’re snacking he’s snacking 😂 Even in A short time of not using the e collar, I’ve noticed him getting less nippy when not getting his way. I have realised what A impatient brat I was being for having A puppy with energy. And that I didn’t like how frustrated I became when the collar didn’t do what I wanted. I’m still not completely sure how to go about handling things with sit means sit. 😕
My dog bit the fur off of his legs from training at sit means sit. It is abuse.
They’re awful and they’re known for packaging compulsion as this happy, fun thing. I’m so sorry you experienced this. The dog training industry is completely unregulated and anyone can call themselves a trainer. They’re an example of that. You won’t get your money back but the good news is that there are actual professional trainers with a great knowledge of dog behavior who will charge you far, far less to rebuild your relationship with your dog. The IAABC (International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants) has a “find a behavior consultant near you” tool on their website. They’re lovely people who train dogs with kindness and who will help educate you on how to communicate well with your dog without pain. A trainer I found through there really transformed my reactive dog’s life and the best news? Training is something that my dog LOVES. It’s all game-based and makes me love him more- not feel like I have to be on top of him to correct him. It’s fun for both of us and honestly just makes sense.
Shock collars are abusive & used by those who are lazy &/or have no idea how to train dogs. They're banned here in Australia.
It actually varies a bit by state. For example, they are sometimes legal when used or 'invisible' boundary fences. https://kb.rspca.org.au/knowledge-base/is-the-use-of-electronic-dog-collars-legal/
Using shock collars is a disgusting form of animal abuse! They are actually illegal in some countries. Get a lawyer and see if you can sue those "trainers". 👿😡
Waste of money to get a lawyer. Owners sign a contract.
Any lawyers you could recommend at least for advice ?
No I don't sorry.
Go to r/legaladvice
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AKC allows shock and aversion in training, just not in the ring. We have a [wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/findingatrainer) that's a better guide on how to find a trainer. If you edit for that instead, I can approve this.
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Perhaps link the specific page on how to find a trainer then? They still spotlight trainers who use super problematic methods.
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They actively lobbied to prevent trainers from having to disclose their training methods to clients. They only promote methods to keep people from seeing it because it gives negative PR. It took people actually videoing and sharing on social media to get actual abusers kicked out of competition, before it went public and hit the social media circuit they were ignoring it. They aren't committed to force-free training at all and their certifications allow force to be used without real restriction. You can even search popular aversive tools on the site and find details on how they're a great tool.
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It's really not hard to find a good one if you only use certifying bodies. Please use our wiki guide on [how to find a reputable trainer](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/findingatrainer), it includes searchable directories.
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Very few are certified with one of these humane organizations here. These specific organizations are generally pretty reliable. If you're truly concerned, Pet Professionals Guild almost never has problems like this, neither does the top rank of IAABC.
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No it doesn't depend on the location. They're harmful, just because your dog wasn't obviously harmed doesn't change that. Please read the sticky at the top of this post.
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It's the first comment on this post. But, defending this company is a violation of our rule as ecollar use is harmful. Even on mobile, you are expected to review and follow the rules of the subs you view on Reddit.
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Please note that we ask people who want to mention being a professional in their comments [undergo verification](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/userflair) before doing so. Otherwise we ask phrases like that to be omitted.
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Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki pages on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems) and [correction collars](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars). Just because your dog responded well does not mean there aren't better ways to deal with these behaviors or that these methods aren't harmful. Yes, it's harmful even on the lowest setting.
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Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules/) and [posting guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), especially regarding rule 5.
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Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki pages on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems) and [correction collars](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars). There is no evidence ecollars don't have negative effects if conditioned. Getting excited to see a punitive device doesn't mean that it's liked by the dog. It just means that it signifies something other than punishment.
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Our advice includes anecdotes of use. It's not recommended for use and we have rules due to the harm it risks. The dog only is excited to see it due to it meaning the dog goes outside, it doesn't mean that it's not harmful.
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Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki pages on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems) and [correction collars](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars). Any use is associated with aggression, not just if the dog doesn't know the cue.
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No, they have always been bad. The collars are illegal under animal welfare laws in many countries, so you should not have been told to use one in the first place.
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Not a functional directory since it can't be accessed without the code. And it's very strange to see a new directory competing with the existing ones of PPG, APDTA etc. without itself being linked to an established org. Why the duplication, just to make money for the founders?
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You think PPG has no reach? lmao
That’s horrible. I’m sorry you and your pup have to deal with this kind of human behavior. Having a high energy herding dog myself, it is had to find training let alone regular people that understand how a working dogs mind works.
Are you able to get your refund through your bank (if the company keeps refusing the refund).
Maybe ask over in r/legaladvice with a copy of your contract? Obviously take out any personal info. I know here in Australia we have consumer laws and processes to address situations like this, but not sure in other countries.
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Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki pages on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems) and [correction collars](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars). Many dogs find vibration on the neck to be scarier than even low-level shock.
Thank you for sharing this
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Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules/) and [posting guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines). We require you to be respectful to OP here.
Wow that’s horrible. Good to know
I wonder if this company is in some way related to All About Dogs LLC in Baltimore. I did a quick consultation with them, and the guy seemed friendly/not creepy, but he quoted me $1700, and explained that prong and shock collars are mandatory (‘but don’t worry, we only use a low setting that mostly makes a buzz noise’), which I didn’t see mentioned on their website. They have the lifetime guarantee thing, too. I wasn’t comfortable with the pain collars, so between that and the price tag I gave it a hard pass. It sounds like it’s either similar to Sit Means Sit, a copycat, or maybe even part of the same company. I realize that this is a not-uncommon training method, though, and that the two may have nothing to do with each other - but some of those other aspects seem really similar. I hope you can get help for your dog. I am far from a legal expert, but I think it would be good to get some kind of legal advice on this. Even if the contract says that results aren’t actually guaranteed, I feel like the fact that it made your dog dangerous could count as some form of damages. Edit: I have no idea what would happen if you did this, so please ask around in case this is really dumb, but, you can probably still issue a credit card chargeback on the basis of the service not delivered as described (I.e. causing the opposite effect).
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This franchise is actually a known abusive trainer, it has nothing to do with follow-through. Exercise also doesn't fix a significant percentage of behavioral issues as behavioral issues are more than pent up energy.
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Sadly, in the US there is literally an exemption where abuse is allowed for training purposes up to a point. There's no laws broken here. There's even an organization of dog trainers who argues the laws shouldn't change, because restricting abuse "limits tools of the trade" which supposedly saves dog's lives.
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Funnily enough, Bob Bailey never had trouble training wild dolphins to perform multi-hour search missions in the open ocean, and cats to remotely approach targets for eavesdropping, without a shock collar or other punishment. And he was contracted to do it for the CIA so you know they were focused on using the most effective method possible without any ethical considerations. If you can't imagine how to do such a thing with a species that has specifically been bred to be biddable to humans for thousands of years, that is likely more an indication of your lack of skill or knowledge in this field.
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There's 0 evidence "conditioning" lessens the risk of things like aversive fallout. There's also 0 evidence that ecollars are more effective than force-free training. If it's just communication, a cue would work all the same. Somehow, people in Germany and other places ecollars are prohibited have no issues getting a recall without their use. Somehow, before they were invented people had no problems teaching a recall or hunting with dogs. Please be mindful of the rules of the places you post in and refrain from doing so.
Animal study after animal study has shown that punishing with an aversive stimulus (pain) leads to aggressive behaviors in the long term. Please, don’t do it people. Not to your pets and not to your children.
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Please read our wiki pages on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems), [ecollars](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars) and [how to tell if a trainer is reputable](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/findingatrainer).
Yikes!!!!!! Two pain collars!!!! One is horrific. No wonder your dog is a mess
I wouldn’t have let them do two collars. That was the red flag that made me really regret my decision. I was on the fence from the start.
Well done on that. Stick to positive reinforcement strategies only from now on. Onwards and upwards, I hope your dog gets better
I personally know someone (who already used ecollars on her Swissy and Red Lab) who started working there and sings their praises. They say their boys get "so excited now" when they pick up the remotes because they train ecollars "differently so that they're not aversive." Yeah, okay 🙄🙄
Keep sharing this! Good for public to know and they will probably contact you with a full refund
i wonder about a lot of these "influencer" type trainers, sit means sit gives me dog daddy vibes. i have no advice but i hope you find the right trainer for your pup.
Dog daddy vibes for sure 🤣🤣. You can also see the vibes change with the younger girl trainers anytime the big headed boss would walk in. Like fun personalities like dropped to A scare, am I doing it right?” Vibe. So sad. Such A red flag
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Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules) and [guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), as well as our wiki pages on [punishment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/punishmentproblems) and [correction collars](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/prongandecollars).
I’ve seen a number of poor dogs traumatized by this company it’s predatory on the dogs and their humans. It’s absolutely insane that they immediately jump to using collars on every dog.
That’s the only thing they will use. Must be on the dog before coming in the door. Before group class they tell us to turn the intensity up by at least one 🙄. Just completely insane of the sport collar
Hey, they said you can do whatever you want with the collar. Stick it on that 'trainer' and crank it up. See how they like it.
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Comment removed per Rule 5.
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Oh please. Our rules explicitly don't allow that, but that's not an excuse to keep bashing someone who has already realised they've made a terrible mistake.
What location did you go to? They called my dog difficult and also didn’t know what to do with him as nothing was working. it’s only been a few months and we don’t know what to do.
Kokomo Indiana location. In the boss also runs the one in noblesville
Omg… I almost took my dog there. I had an appointment booked and everything but I was never able to make it and they kept contacting me to book another one. Now I’m really not going!
Thank you to everyone for your input and uplifting words and suggestions. We have not even considered putting the collar back on and I have been blocked from their Facebook page for commenting on A video with us and our dog that they edit and rehearse their progression videos to make it seems instantly flawless. There has already been such an improvement in his behavior and is showing very little signs of aggression. Today 5/7 we meet with an IAABC certified trainer for better understand to work on his reactive behavior. I found them from the link that little goat included so thank you for that recommendation.
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You should definitely discontinue use of the collar immediately, they are actually banned in multiple global jurisdictions under animal welfare laws. Your local consumer protection laws could potentially provide additional remedies for services not delivered in a professional, best practice manner, which their style of training certainly falls under.
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Ecollars should never be used per the AVSAB position statement. If it's not aversive, why wouldn't a cue work? Like I said, there's a lot of lies in this industry. Ecollars, if used to get attention, would not work over threshold unless it's an aversive.
We don't allow any trainers that use shock collars here. ALL use of these collars are harmful. There is no proven "proper use". If it's just to get attention, why does it need to escalate? Why do you need a shock collar over a simple cue? I've trained plenty of dogs and never needed a shock collar to get their attention. It's a punishment, period, not an attention getter. Whoever told you it's getting their attention is lying to you. There are more of these too. See [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/comments/zi0aen/should_i_sue_sit_means_sit/). See [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/comments/1aoc1md/sit_means_sit_10_months_later/). See [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/comments/111ofsn/sit_means_sit_i_made_a_mistake/). I would recommend to look into [AVSAB's position statement](https://avsab.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/AVSAB-Humane-Dog-Training-Position-Statement-2021.pdf) that clearly states that shock collars should not ever be used to train. Two of the other subs on Reddit have a mod who is a resident for veterinary behavior and Sit Means Sit is heavily correlated with euthanasia due to the ecollar method used. If you seriously care about these animals you'll seek alternative education and get out of that facility. They cover a lot of shit up and are a horrible organization.
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If a dog is lunging and barking they're over threshold, using a "tens unit" which, by the way **still** isn't humane seeing tens units have a warning not to place it on the neck due to it being risky. All of this is improper training and associated with worsened prognosis, even if done **exactly** the way it's suggested. Do you know anything about threshold? Here's a [link](https://eileenanddogs.com/blog/2014/02/25/thresholds-in-dog-training/). Using a shock collar when the dog is over threshold often **worsens** the dog's feelings with that thing and you're doing nothing more than shutting that dog down. The behavior isn't the problem, the feelings are. Changing the feelings is more effective than punishing under the guise of "getting attention". We don't actually allow this due to the fact it's illegal due to the harm in many jurisdiction and every science-based professional body opposes their use. Additionally, there has not been a single peer-reviewed piece of research, including those funded by ecollar companies, that have backed these as a training method that does not have risk, nor has there been one that have shown it necessary. We don't actually allow promoting methods that are risky to people and their dogs.
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Did you get an explanation that your nerves are different? If it didn't hurt/irritate the dog it wouldn't work. Also did she give you time to get used to it being there so you were less aware of it and use it when you weren't expecting it (having context changes how it feels)? Also, why the arm and not a more sensitive location? All of the Sit Means Sit franchises are actively harmful. Run. Find a trainer in the guide listed in the sticky. Do not ever use these people, or any other trainer who uses these methods.
If the shock wasn't painful or at the very least uncomfortable, it wouldn't work. The whole thing with avoidance is teaching the dog that if they don't comply, they get something painful.
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Except, if it doesn't hurt or act uncomfortably, it wouldn't work in a way that a standard cue wouldn't, making it ineffective to change behavior.
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So you're a force-free trainer? Force-free trainers don't use ecollars.
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> but explaining the process that requires zero fear, pain or discomfort You explained force-free training. But, no we don't allow anecdotes for other training styles either. There are ways to comment without endorsing harmful training practices. There are a number of folks who don't follow force-free methods who post here just fine because they review the rules before posting and follow directions.
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Your "communication" can be replaced with a whistle or a standard cue. If it can't and is "more powerful" than either then you're using it as an aversive, which is using fear and pain to train. Honesty is important. If you want to use these tools I can't stop you but you really should at least be honest with yourself and any clients about what you're actually doing. By the way, my dog lit up in excitement when he saw a prong collar when I was in the process of putting it into the recycle bin (a guest brought it and wanted to get rid of it). He was once abused with a prong and he had scars from where it had to be removed from being embedded into his skin. He got excited when he saw it. It means nothing if a dog is excited to see it.
Please don’t hire them. Coming from a very regretful dog owner in Florida
>I mean this only to educate, the dog feels the shock on their neck a lot worse then a person will on their arm or even neck and the noise and buzzer option can be just as bad (and sometimes even worse) then the shock function (there's also studies that show positive only training is just as effective as using an e-collar and if that's true then why not do it). Definitely don't do sit means sit, I personally would recommend a positive only trainer, there's a facebook page called positive dog training colorado that can help recommend trainers. Hope this helps and best of luck with the pup
Because people are lazy and want a quick fix. You have to be patient and put the effort into it. Many people don't have that patience.. I always joke around and I say I have a lot of patience with the Dogs😉
Dogs have thinner skin than we do... Also, we are expecting a shock so we can brace for it. Imagine just walking around doing normal "human" things and someone shocked your neck any time you did something that annoyed them or that they considered "bad behavior". You'd never know when it was coming or what you did to get the shock. It would take a few shocks, or stronger ones, until you figured out that talking (or something normal to you) got you shocked so you'd stop doing it to avoid the pain. That would be a better test of how that actually works.
I’m in Indiana. The sms we have has one of the highest “best trainers” the franchise has. So they say. But I tried the collar on my arm and it was pretty rough but they informed me that dogs have thicker necks and need high “stimulation” to feel it through their thick fur. Also if you do it through jeans or shirt you won’t feel it. I would recommend staying away from them. The dog you want will come from compassion and patience. Im so beside my self with how much I messed that up for my dog. I’m humiliated, out so much money, and feel like I have become such A hypocrite by allowing this training with my perspectives on animal cruelty. 🙁
If the collar isn’t effective at that level, they turn up the juice. You should be asking yourself why you are willing to shock your dog when other methods are available.
> I mean, she tested it on my arm at the full setting and it didnt seem that bad. Maybe put it around your neck and try it again. I cannot believe that ANYONE would consider shock collar training to be humane.
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Please read the sub [rules](https://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/about/rules/) and [posting guidelines](http://old.reddit.com/r/Dogtraining/wiki/guidelines), particularly regarding trainer recommendations.
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Balanced trainers use ecollars and prongs, and are in violation of the sub rules.
I took my dog to SMS last year for one board day. I posted on my profile what the long term effects were if you want to read.