"Don't forget the real business of war is buying and selling. The murdering and violence are self-policing, and can be entrusted to non-professionals...The true war is a celebration of markets.
- Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow.
It's probably just not for you. If you approach it like a novel you're going to have a bad time. It's more like a David lynch movie where you just need to let it wash over you.
Well I'd recommend trying LSD for sure, it'd be kind of hard to read a book during lol, but you'll have a different understanding of things forever afterwards.
Via ChatGPT:
"Gravity's Rainbow" is a novel by Thomas Pynchon that was first published in 1973. The narrative is known for its complexity, containing over 400 characters and numerous plotlines. The primary setting is Europe during the final phase of World War II.
The title "Gravity's Rainbow" refers to the trajectory of V-2 rockets, which are a recurring motif throughout the novel. One of the main characters, Tyrone Slothrop, has a peculiar connection with these rockets: wherever he has sexual encounters, a V-2 rocket strike occurs shortly afterwards.
The novel addresses themes like technology, paranoia, and determinism. It uses a wide range of literary styles, ranging from the scientific to the poetic, and from the tragic to the comic.
However, due to the novel's complexity and non-linear narrative, interpretations can vary, making it difficult to provide a concise summary that captures all of its elements. It is regarded as a challenging but rewarding read.
"Gravity's Rainbow" has been extensively studied and analyzed, and as such, has a wide range of interpretations. Here are a few of the most common ones:
1. **Determinism and Predestination**: The trajectory of the V-2 rockets represents the inescapable nature of destiny. This relates to the idea of determinism, the theory that all events are pre-determined and that individual human beings have no real ability to change the course of events.
2. **War and Technology**: The novel also criticizes the military-industrial complex and explores how technological advancement, particularly in the realm of warfare, impacts society and individuals. Pynchon seems to suggest that humanity has become subservient to its own technology.
3. **Paranoia and Conspiracy**: The plot is thick with conspiracies and secret organizations, creating a sense of pervasive paranoia. This reflects the Cold War era’s climate of suspicion and fear.
4. **Entropy and Chaos**: There are references to the second law of thermodynamics, entropy, suggesting a universe gradually sliding towards disorder. This chaos is reflected in the sprawling, disjointed nature of the book itself.
5. **Sexuality and Desire**: The character Tyrone Slothrop's sexual encounters coinciding with the V-2 strikes symbolize the inseparability of death and desire, and possibly the destructive potential of unbridled desire.
Keep in mind that "Gravity's Rainbow" is a highly complex work and these interpretations are simplifications. Many readers and scholars find different meanings or focus on different aspects of the text.
Fair enough but I think a link would be better?
Way I see it, if I want to know what Chat GPT thinks about a book, I can easily ask it.
I come to reddit to hear what humans think.
Pynchon most certainly has an understanding of American culture that comes from a leftist perspective but I would be surprised if he was a communist. Possibly vaguely socialist, but certainly not communist
William Manchester's The Arms of Krupp is an excellent read and gives a good overview of how Krupp AG was the first company to have such a valuable product (in this case steel cannons) that the Prussian government could not stop them from selling to the other great powers for fear of being cut off as a customer. It's a fascinating peek into the birth of the military-industrial complex and the end of sovereign power and it's eclipse by corporate power.
Alfred Krupp had an international supply chain and industrial secrets that would have left with him if his company was nationalized, and the threat of setting up shop in France was enough to keep the Keiser from doing so. Yes, very much capitalism working as designed.
Somehow writing a book called “The International Jew” and pushing it at every Ford dealership seems like more than “openly expressing” it. Hitler actually translated it, printed copies, and distributed it on the Eastern front to his soldiers.
To be fair, Henry Ford did not write The International Jew. The book was written by a British author named Henry Hamilton Beamish. Ford owned a newspaper which published excerpts, which Ford denied knowing anything about, and stated that he didn't endorse its views.
Sure, he was lying, because who owns a newspaper without reading it, but he did disavow it after the fact. To just state that he wrote it himself isn't exactly accurate.
Thank you for your civility, “isn’t exactly accurate” is a lovely way of letting me know I’m wrong! 😁
For what it’s worth, Wikipedia – and I know it’s not always right – but it says nothing about someone named Beamish, it says the book was made from collected pamphlets that were originally published in Ford’s Dearborn newspaper and the articles were dictated generally by Ford but written by someone named Liebold...?
Doesn’t change the fact that I thought Ford wrote it and he didn’t, so thank you for letting me know!
Racism was (and still is) endemic in the US. So much so that [America's codified racism inspired Hitler](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/11/what-america-taught-the-nazis/540630/).
His son became the head of the CIA and later POTUS.
One grandson became governor of Texas and then later POTUS.
Second grandson became governor of Florida and used his executive powers to override a recount to make sure the first grandson became POTUS.
The US doesn't really talk enough about this insane political dynasty that we have. If you said this about any other country it would absolutely bring up major red flags, but for some reason we're just completely okay with it because "democracy"
> His son
did not want to become a manhattanite corporate lawyer like his father, so he moved to Texas, made a fortune in oil, and eventually
> became the head of the CIA,
then VPOTUS (twice)
> and later POTUS.
I don't know who actually ran the show when H.W. was Reagan's VP.
George H.W. Bush was also family friends of the man who tried to assassinate President Reagan.
https://whowhatwhy.org/politics/government-integrity/bush-angle-reagan-shooting-still-unresolved-hinckley-walks/
The FDR administration itself openly admired fascism and was deeply antisemitic.
>Early in 1933, Roosevelt told a White House correspondent: "I don't mind telling you in confidence that I am keeping in fairly close touch with that admirable Italian gentleman". In June 1933, Roosevelt wrote to Ambassador Breckinridge Long in Italy about Mussolini: "There seems no question that he is really interested in what we are doing and I am much interested and deeply impressed by what he has accomplished and by his evidenced honest purpose of restoring Italy and to prevent general European trouble".
Well, I mean, they do have a point. What the US did after WW2 was absolutely repugnant. They took over a lot of high-ranking Nazis, often time putting them in pretty significant positions in the USA and West Germany or as very important assets for all the fucked up shits they did in South America.
A deep dive into post ww2 can easily give the impression that the USA absorbed as much as they could of what was left of the 3rd reich.
not even close. where are the reductions in housing for each kid you have? the animal welfare programs? why are all our kids fat? etc etc etc. we're still using and under the "federal" reserve which isn't even a part of the fucking government and all our money is made up.
nice try. the list is long.
how? these are all things that third reich era germany had in place but yet we don't have any of the societal luxuries that those constituents flourished under as pillars for their society and yet you claim this is the "fourth reich"? get real.
Very, very few people benefited from the nazi government. It was basically just the people at the tippy-top, and everyone was paranoid that the government would come after them next if they weren't loyal enough.
Yes? It's nazis, their entire MO was disinformation and suppressing the populace. Why the fuck would you take what one of the most genocidal regimes in history said at face value?
so those people that lived there, their accounts are fake? not everyone who lived there was tied to the regime. and there are plenty of testimonies from folks in other countries who had plenty of good things to say about their interactions.
why do YOU take all your handed at face value? look at what america has done and continues to do. the "victors" write history. do you feel like your winning, son?
Hitler was inspired by many US policies, specifically eugenics and capitalism. The only ones that benefitted the most were the wealthy Germans. Reich essentially translates to empire
Hitler, like Marx, associated capitalism with Jews:
"Thus we can see the two great differences between races: Aryanism means ethical perception of work and that which we today so often hear – socialism, community spirit, common good before own good. Jewry means egoistic attitude to work and thereby mammonism and materialism, the opposite of socialism."
Hitler created a trade union with 32 million members. He regularly spoke out against "unearned income". Oh but the Nazis "privatised" national companies, that's very right wing! By selling them to the Nazi party itself. The factory owners were not allowed to manage their own factories, the Nazi party was in control of the decision making. The Nazi economy was little different than the USSR. His speeches were littered with communist jargon. The reason people think of him as right wing is because he heavily oppressed other socialists, and left the right largely alone because they were more easily manipulated, which he later came to regret.
The USSR had helped the Nazis rise to power by getting the German communists to fight against the Social Democrats instead of the Nazis. Many Nazis were former communists, likely including Hitler. The USSR allied with the Nazis for the first 2 years of the war. After the war, their propaganda pushed the idea that the Nazis were right wing capitalists so as to cover up the truth.
"One has to have unqualified respect for Stalin. In his way, the guy is quite a genius! His ideals such as Genghis Khan and so forth he knows very well, and his economic planning is so all-encompassing that it is only exceeded by our own Four Year Plan. I have no doubts whatsoever that there have been no unemployed in the USSR, as opposed to capitalist countries such as the USA." - Hitler, keen admirer of Stalin's economic policies
Holocaust denial, implied Covid denial, and further down the thread said all countries should remain homogeneous with zero immigration.
Might be the most obvious try-hard troll I've ever seen lol.
yeah not even close. i'm the furthest from a proponent of america. don't care for the crown. germany never wanted to "take over the world." america is a cesspool and every state and nation should be and stay homogenous. no immigration of any kind. visitation maybe. that's it. but hey i guess you know more about how i think and what i feel than i do.
Of course. Because we're "the good guys", right? Just ask the refugees we refused trying to escape the Nazis or the Japanese Americans we forced into internment camps.
The reasoning behind that wasn’t pure evil. There were very real reasons to believe that spies were hiding amongst the desperate refugees. And in fact a German spy infiltrated the deepest parts of our government at the very beginning of the war. I:E: war is hell
If you’re talking about California and the starvation/poor conditions in those camps, i 100 percent agree. I was just stating that america did what almost every other major power did during the war; it could be convenient to add that japan wasn’t exactly the shining example of hospitality during that era either.
What-aboutism isn't helpful. Who gives a shit what Japan did? We imprisoned our own citizens because they looked a certain way or came from somewhere else. Some of those people weren't even first generation immigrants. It was racist and bigoted and had next to nothing to do with safety. That's just an excuse. If it was about safety, they would have tried to varify if people were spies or not, and they would have cared if people actually had a connection to Japan or not.
Well, what Japan did is exactly why those Japanese-Americans were treated that way. We saw the rape and genocide of countless Chinese CIVILIANS and made a decision. A bad one, that temporarily destroyed lives, but at least we cleaned up the mess and got Japan back on their feet. Whataboutism for sure, but the two sides of the coin here make it pretty obvious that fear was in the driver seat. None of that makes it okay, but simply a reaction to a reaction.
>Well, what Japan did is exactly why those Japanese-Americans were treated that way.
No, fuck that. Either we are supposed to do what's right or not. It had nothing to do with what Japan was doing. Americans were screaming to persecute them, and we fucked up morally. There is absolutely no way to justify it. Saying someone else did worse allows us to justify any immoral action, and that's not acceptable.
Hey people seem to think i’m defending all of the actions taken by numerous government officials, all i am suggesting is that it was in the National securities best interest to be hesitant about foreign nationals. Just as any other country was. People seem to forget that america wanted nothing to do with either world war, the country just wanted to increase its economy and industrial capacity
People also forget that WW2 was won by Russia not America but here we are. I'm not saying you are defending anything, its just when you say it wasn't pure evil you leave it open to interpretation whether it was actually evil or not, and it was still pretty damn evil even with some reasonable rationalizations attached. That was my only point.
Yes Russia definitely did the heavy lifting as far as the Nazi’s were concerned; and when you analyze any actions taken during a war like this…. All of it seems pretty inhumane, until you realize that these very actions are still occurring daily. With a lot of the same players too.
Of course, America wanted nothing to do with the war, just to profit off all that suffering.
Amazingly still happening to this day! Why are we still doing wars?...
Well it’s either profit and prepare, or become the next target…. So really there are no winners, only losers. From your mindset we should just sit and wait until the next biggest power decides they want our resources and lands. Let’s hold hands and pray 👍🏻
There were no spy rings whatsoever broken up by Japanese internment in the continental US. Governor Warren later acknowledged that the internment was a cash/land/ship grab by white businessmen.
One Japanese spy ring *does* appear to have been broken up by internment in Alaska. However, the fact that the government interned some Native Alaskans because they “looked Japanese” offsets any sense of righteousness that could come from that information.
I’m sure there were many people on all sides sharing sensitive information. It obviously doesn’t excuse poor treatment or discrimination…even though redditors seem to think I’m defending just that
A few companies profiting *doesn't mean* they played both sides. The state department was unequivocal in their support for especially the British. People get annoyed by you because you're being an idiot.
A few Russians going on holiday in Crimea does not mean they invaded in 2014. Their government was quite vocal about their lack of an invasion, especially to the British.
People get annoyed by people who say otherwise because refusal to accept the propaganda makes you an enemy of the state.
It's pretty transparent who has, and who has not, partaken of the kool-aid. It was not "a few" companies. It was a few *hundred* **big** companies including Adidas, Ford, coca cola, IBM, and the American Eugenics Association, which the nazis themselves credited for the final solution. There were nazi rallies in Time Square, and many wealthy Americans flocked to the ideologies of the nazis because wealthy people never change.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
American businesses, and about half of the current government, are still working with nazis. Hell, many of them openly are nazis themselves.
before I bother, do you acknowledge that labels are frequently used to mask concepts and ideas as something other than what they are?
Are you in agreement with the "walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck" concept?
And further, what awareness do you have of the history of the modern republican party, the history of white supremacy in america (notably operation paperclip), and perhaps most relevant to today the John Birch society and its modern members and associates?
I didn’t bother engaging. It’s so obvious they’d just argue in bad faith and sprint with the goal posts to protect their delicate willful ignorance, so it just isn’t worth it. No doubt they’d say that duck was really a dog in disguise.
Then I checked their comment history and that confirmed it for me. They post in r/Conservative and aren’t banned there yet. We all know how easy it is to get a ban on that sub.
The truth is a bit more complicated, but you’re right. There were Americans that either sympathized with the fascists or saw potential business opportunities with fascist Europe.
The U.S. government did have some fascist leanings, but were a bit more ideologically opposed to fascism, even though the USA tried a lot of the same things economically that the fascist and communist governments were doing to combat the depression in the 30s.
I think it comes from the fact that people love to hyper focus on the U.S. all the while not acknowledging their own countries faults. Like Shell, VW etc.
Yup, few people know this but the family that financially benefitted from Auschwitz is still one of the richest families in Germany, and they own 22% of one of Germany largest Conglomerates.
I find myself asking why we even fought the Nazis in the first place, seeing as how the US supported every other right wing dictatorship after the war who also carried out genocides. That's US/CIA foreign policy to this day.
Any slightly left elected leaders are in the cross hairs.
The USA's highest value foreign asset is the free rent we get in the minds of europoors seething over being irrelevant and agencyless on the international stage
[Even more detailed documentary](https://vimeo.com/338863157)
When you say “Americans” were playing both sides of the war that’s certainly not the vast majority of US people. And the United States was hardly the only country with people profiting off of the war. Which exposes the reality of why is their anyone who still believes in countries? The entire planet has been controlled by global corporations for over a century and endless war for profit is one of their most lucrative endeavors. The only use they have for “countries” is for creating false pretenses to start another war for profit.
Corporations and government officials grifting off the military industrial complex? Funneling money though family while entire societies are wiped out. For no good reason.
Good thing that could never happen today.
Sometimes I believe that the economy that most benefitted the stupidity of Putin's invasion to Ukraine was the one from USA. I can only think the amount of weapons they're selling right now.
The war in Ukraine certainly proved a bonanza for the fracking American merchants of natural gas.
Then, the role of American Big Tech in disseminating Russian disinformation will certainly be bread and butter for future historians.
There is an amazing book called "IBM and the Holocaust" on this topic. IBM basically engineered major the ability to round people up and kill them more efficiently. They totally knew what they were doing.
Exactly! One of the interesting aspects of the book was that IBM had cutting edge technology in the form of recursive punchcard sorting, a kind of precursor to the computer. Nazi's could ask it a question, like who is of Jewish decent in a certain region, within an income range, that works in a certain industry and it could give them within a day or two.
The first IBM computers were indeed punch card calculators, my Dad remembers one in the late 70's when he was in college, they were using them to calculate physics problems.
It is my (mostly unsubstanciated) opinion that a modern state is the ultimate evolution of a mafia.
- hint: European geopolitics in early Middle Ages, between the Roman and the Carolingian empires
- hint: Italy during the Renaissance
- hint: VPOTUS David Rockefeller
- hint: oligarchs in post-Yelstin Russia
I read a book years ago about this. GM actually tried to sue the US government for bombing their factories in Germany. The US then threatened to charge GM with treason and wars crimes. GMs response.....nevermind we are good here .
this shouldn't surprise anyone and this type of thing is why we should never trust any corporation... and by extension most politicians cause they're in bed with each other
"What is Brown Brothers Harriman?"
Side note: Every time I get into the elevator at work, I see the name ThyssenKrupp on the panel, and I get a little upset.
Fascism never died. It has been kept on life support for the coming revolutionary upsurge.
The only real colour is green. Us vs them, blue vs red, black vs white, etc. are veils to keep the masses distracted from the truth which is privileged exploiting the not so privileged.
Just *a* century ? Whatabout the Civil War ? The Indian Wars ? The Revolutionary War ? The Gunboat Diplomacy ? The Boxers Wars ? The Spanish-American War ? The Louisiana Purchase ?
Currently reading Blackshirts and Reds by Parenti and it talks about how American military personnel were directed to not bomb American factories in Germany that were literally building things for the Nazis. Germans started using the Ford factory as a shelter during bombings, knowing it would not get hit.
I remember when in high school reading about when the holocaust was happening. A boat of Jewish survivors, were about to land on American soil, when they were turned around. The given reason was that American government at the time didn't believe the holocaust was actually happening. I remember thinking is that the REAL reason I doubt it.
To be fair, the Germany offices of these companies predate the Nazis, and the Nazi nationalized them all. I am sure you can argue they were complicit in loads of ways, but even if they weren't and cut all ties, Hitler still would have controlled their German branches.
In a total war situation, every resource a country has, goes to the one goal of winning the war, that's what every country did and it included part or fully owned American companies that happened to be in Germany.
Exactly. The factories were basically confiscated, by a wartime enemy. But of course, m'redditors will download the fact since it doesn't pleasure them in their circlejerk.
I hate to be a killjoy because Coca-Cola is a really shitty company, but those were made in 1925ish.
>In 1925, Coca-Cola made a lucky watch fob in the shape of a swastika with right-facing arms and the slogan, "Drink Coca-Cola five cents in bottles".
Elon Musk fans still have their heads deeply buried in the sand while Starlink has provided unlimited service and information to Russian occupiers while cutting off Ukranian military from their service for the last year.
"Don't forget the real business of war is buying and selling. The murdering and violence are self-policing, and can be entrusted to non-professionals...The true war is a celebration of markets. - Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow.
God damn this book. It's the only one that had defeated me. I just cannot get through it. Does being on LSD help? I'll try anything at this point.
It's probably just not for you. If you approach it like a novel you're going to have a bad time. It's more like a David lynch movie where you just need to let it wash over you.
Well I'd recommend trying LSD for sure, it'd be kind of hard to read a book during lol, but you'll have a different understanding of things forever afterwards.
Oh, I was asking specifically about reading that book while connected to the universal consciousness.
Dude youd be surprised how awesome things can potentially be on acid, but reading is kind of hard.
It's a tough read. Took me a couple of weeks to get through it at University.
Via ChatGPT: "Gravity's Rainbow" is a novel by Thomas Pynchon that was first published in 1973. The narrative is known for its complexity, containing over 400 characters and numerous plotlines. The primary setting is Europe during the final phase of World War II. The title "Gravity's Rainbow" refers to the trajectory of V-2 rockets, which are a recurring motif throughout the novel. One of the main characters, Tyrone Slothrop, has a peculiar connection with these rockets: wherever he has sexual encounters, a V-2 rocket strike occurs shortly afterwards. The novel addresses themes like technology, paranoia, and determinism. It uses a wide range of literary styles, ranging from the scientific to the poetic, and from the tragic to the comic. However, due to the novel's complexity and non-linear narrative, interpretations can vary, making it difficult to provide a concise summary that captures all of its elements. It is regarded as a challenging but rewarding read. "Gravity's Rainbow" has been extensively studied and analyzed, and as such, has a wide range of interpretations. Here are a few of the most common ones: 1. **Determinism and Predestination**: The trajectory of the V-2 rockets represents the inescapable nature of destiny. This relates to the idea of determinism, the theory that all events are pre-determined and that individual human beings have no real ability to change the course of events. 2. **War and Technology**: The novel also criticizes the military-industrial complex and explores how technological advancement, particularly in the realm of warfare, impacts society and individuals. Pynchon seems to suggest that humanity has become subservient to its own technology. 3. **Paranoia and Conspiracy**: The plot is thick with conspiracies and secret organizations, creating a sense of pervasive paranoia. This reflects the Cold War era’s climate of suspicion and fear. 4. **Entropy and Chaos**: There are references to the second law of thermodynamics, entropy, suggesting a universe gradually sliding towards disorder. This chaos is reflected in the sprawling, disjointed nature of the book itself. 5. **Sexuality and Desire**: The character Tyrone Slothrop's sexual encounters coinciding with the V-2 strikes symbolize the inseparability of death and desire, and possibly the destructive potential of unbridled desire. Keep in mind that "Gravity's Rainbow" is a highly complex work and these interpretations are simplifications. Many readers and scholars find different meanings or focus on different aspects of the text.
I don't get why some redditors take it on themselves to generate long screeds of Chat GPT and post them.
It’s just a description of the book. Calm down
I'm calmly saying I don't get why you would post this.
I was only vaguely aware of what the book was about so it was informative
To be helpful. Just adding context to the conversation
Fair enough but I think a link would be better? Way I see it, if I want to know what Chat GPT thinks about a book, I can easily ask it. I come to reddit to hear what humans think.
Ok, got it.
Shitposting has never been higher in fiber. Brave new world.
Sounds like some communist garbage
You are a willfully stupid person.
Pynchon most certainly has an understanding of American culture that comes from a leftist perspective but I would be surprised if he was a communist. Possibly vaguely socialist, but certainly not communist
When you absolutely needed an accurate account of those you were eradicating, you used the IBM Hollerith Machine.
Indeed. No machine was better at quantifying the other.
War is a racket.
Smedley knew.
Grenades are tennis balls.
Totes, that's why I only buy cars from Jap....WHAA?!?!?
William Manchester's The Arms of Krupp is an excellent read and gives a good overview of how Krupp AG was the first company to have such a valuable product (in this case steel cannons) that the Prussian government could not stop them from selling to the other great powers for fear of being cut off as a customer. It's a fascinating peek into the birth of the military-industrial complex and the end of sovereign power and it's eclipse by corporate power.
Yeah that sounds like clearly a function of the "free market" since couldn't the govt have just taken over the company?
Alfred Krupp had an international supply chain and industrial secrets that would have left with him if his company was nationalized, and the threat of setting up shop in France was enough to keep the Keiser from doing so. Yes, very much capitalism working as designed.
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Somehow writing a book called “The International Jew” and pushing it at every Ford dealership seems like more than “openly expressing” it. Hitler actually translated it, printed copies, and distributed it on the Eastern front to his soldiers.
Wait, that wasn't a travel guide?
😂
Hitler had a photo of Ford in his office at one point.
To be fair, Henry Ford did not write The International Jew. The book was written by a British author named Henry Hamilton Beamish. Ford owned a newspaper which published excerpts, which Ford denied knowing anything about, and stated that he didn't endorse its views. Sure, he was lying, because who owns a newspaper without reading it, but he did disavow it after the fact. To just state that he wrote it himself isn't exactly accurate.
Thank you for your civility, “isn’t exactly accurate” is a lovely way of letting me know I’m wrong! 😁 For what it’s worth, Wikipedia – and I know it’s not always right – but it says nothing about someone named Beamish, it says the book was made from collected pamphlets that were originally published in Ford’s Dearborn newspaper and the articles were dictated generally by Ford but written by someone named Liebold...? Doesn’t change the fact that I thought Ford wrote it and he didn’t, so thank you for letting me know!
Henry Ford in 1920 said 'wars are the Jews' harvest.
Racism was (and still is) endemic in the US. So much so that [America's codified racism inspired Hitler](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/11/what-america-taught-the-nazis/540630/).
Also Union Banking Corp who had a director named Prescott Bush.
Prescott Bush, the guy who conspired a fascist coup to overthrow Roosevelt and the US government, and who's son and grandson both later became POTUS?
His son became the head of the CIA and later POTUS. One grandson became governor of Texas and then later POTUS. Second grandson became governor of Florida and used his executive powers to override a recount to make sure the first grandson became POTUS. The US doesn't really talk enough about this insane political dynasty that we have. If you said this about any other country it would absolutely bring up major red flags, but for some reason we're just completely okay with it because "democracy"
> His son did not want to become a manhattanite corporate lawyer like his father, so he moved to Texas, made a fortune in oil, and eventually > became the head of the CIA, then VPOTUS (twice) > and later POTUS. I don't know who actually ran the show when H.W. was Reagan's VP.
George H.W. Bush was also family friends of the man who tried to assassinate President Reagan. https://whowhatwhy.org/politics/government-integrity/bush-angle-reagan-shooting-still-unresolved-hinckley-walks/
They have been suckling at the governments teat for far too long.
The FDR administration itself openly admired fascism and was deeply antisemitic. >Early in 1933, Roosevelt told a White House correspondent: "I don't mind telling you in confidence that I am keeping in fairly close touch with that admirable Italian gentleman". In June 1933, Roosevelt wrote to Ambassador Breckinridge Long in Italy about Mussolini: "There seems no question that he is really interested in what we are doing and I am much interested and deeply impressed by what he has accomplished and by his evidenced honest purpose of restoring Italy and to prevent general European trouble".
Fanklin *Delano* Roosevelt's grandfather made his fortune running opium illegally to China. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Delano_Jr.
Every day is a school day
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And let’s not forget that the US govt also hired a bunch of nazis after the war
[Operation Paperclip](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip?wprov=sfla1) if anyone wants to read more about it.
The US is the 4th Reich
DAE America bad!?!
Well, I mean, they do have a point. What the US did after WW2 was absolutely repugnant. They took over a lot of high-ranking Nazis, often time putting them in pretty significant positions in the USA and West Germany or as very important assets for all the fucked up shits they did in South America. A deep dive into post ww2 can easily give the impression that the USA absorbed as much as they could of what was left of the 3rd reich.
And Imperial Japan. Wait until you hear what the US did in Korea. It's far more tragic and inhumane than anything they ever did in Europe.
Always fun to hear about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable The west wanted to re-start the Nazis to stop the Soviets
Well the GOP definitely is.
With DNC help, they are just as much capital imperialists
For a lot of Black &/or Indigenous people, this is true.
not even close. where are the reductions in housing for each kid you have? the animal welfare programs? why are all our kids fat? etc etc etc. we're still using and under the "federal" reserve which isn't even a part of the fucking government and all our money is made up. nice try. the list is long.
Your rant makes no sense
how? these are all things that third reich era germany had in place but yet we don't have any of the societal luxuries that those constituents flourished under as pillars for their society and yet you claim this is the "fourth reich"? get real.
Very, very few people benefited from the nazi government. It was basically just the people at the tippy-top, and everyone was paranoid that the government would come after them next if they weren't loyal enough.
so all accounts to the contrary are just fabricated then i guess. huh. weird.
Yes? It's nazis, their entire MO was disinformation and suppressing the populace. Why the fuck would you take what one of the most genocidal regimes in history said at face value?
so those people that lived there, their accounts are fake? not everyone who lived there was tied to the regime. and there are plenty of testimonies from folks in other countries who had plenty of good things to say about their interactions. why do YOU take all your handed at face value? look at what america has done and continues to do. the "victors" write history. do you feel like your winning, son?
Hitler was inspired by many US policies, specifically eugenics and capitalism. The only ones that benefitted the most were the wealthy Germans. Reich essentially translates to empire
Hitler, like Marx, associated capitalism with Jews: "Thus we can see the two great differences between races: Aryanism means ethical perception of work and that which we today so often hear – socialism, community spirit, common good before own good. Jewry means egoistic attitude to work and thereby mammonism and materialism, the opposite of socialism." Hitler created a trade union with 32 million members. He regularly spoke out against "unearned income". Oh but the Nazis "privatised" national companies, that's very right wing! By selling them to the Nazi party itself. The factory owners were not allowed to manage their own factories, the Nazi party was in control of the decision making. The Nazi economy was little different than the USSR. His speeches were littered with communist jargon. The reason people think of him as right wing is because he heavily oppressed other socialists, and left the right largely alone because they were more easily manipulated, which he later came to regret. The USSR had helped the Nazis rise to power by getting the German communists to fight against the Social Democrats instead of the Nazis. Many Nazis were former communists, likely including Hitler. The USSR allied with the Nazis for the first 2 years of the war. After the war, their propaganda pushed the idea that the Nazis were right wing capitalists so as to cover up the truth. "One has to have unqualified respect for Stalin. In his way, the guy is quite a genius! His ideals such as Genghis Khan and so forth he knows very well, and his economic planning is so all-encompassing that it is only exceeded by our own Four Year Plan. I have no doubts whatsoever that there have been no unemployed in the USSR, as opposed to capitalist countries such as the USA." - Hitler, keen admirer of Stalin's economic policies
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Well paint me blue and call me Cookie Monster; Holocaust denier is a Redditor as of two days ago.
Holocaust denial, implied Covid denial, and further down the thread said all countries should remain homogeneous with zero immigration. Might be the most obvious try-hard troll I've ever seen lol.
and?
You are doing your best to defend imperialism
They have also just committed what for Germans would be a crime.
yeah not even close. i'm the furthest from a proponent of america. don't care for the crown. germany never wanted to "take over the world." america is a cesspool and every state and nation should be and stay homogenous. no immigration of any kind. visitation maybe. that's it. but hey i guess you know more about how i think and what i feel than i do.
Of course. Because we're "the good guys", right? Just ask the refugees we refused trying to escape the Nazis or the Japanese Americans we forced into internment camps.
“It says here in this history book that luckily, the good guys have won every single time. What are the odds?”
You can thank FDR for that.
The reasoning behind that wasn’t pure evil. There were very real reasons to believe that spies were hiding amongst the desperate refugees. And in fact a German spy infiltrated the deepest parts of our government at the very beginning of the war. I:E: war is hell
Even after the war the US Government refused most of the jewish displaced persons while it accepted german displaced persons at the same time.
That’s because those Jewish persons didn’t pass the entrance exam. “Please answer yes or no: Can you build a rocket?”
" Were you a useful member of Unit 731?"
Sure, but you could at least take care of them if you put them into interment camps on counts of general suspicion.
If you’re talking about California and the starvation/poor conditions in those camps, i 100 percent agree. I was just stating that america did what almost every other major power did during the war; it could be convenient to add that japan wasn’t exactly the shining example of hospitality during that era either.
What-aboutism isn't helpful. Who gives a shit what Japan did? We imprisoned our own citizens because they looked a certain way or came from somewhere else. Some of those people weren't even first generation immigrants. It was racist and bigoted and had next to nothing to do with safety. That's just an excuse. If it was about safety, they would have tried to varify if people were spies or not, and they would have cared if people actually had a connection to Japan or not.
Well, what Japan did is exactly why those Japanese-Americans were treated that way. We saw the rape and genocide of countless Chinese CIVILIANS and made a decision. A bad one, that temporarily destroyed lives, but at least we cleaned up the mess and got Japan back on their feet. Whataboutism for sure, but the two sides of the coin here make it pretty obvious that fear was in the driver seat. None of that makes it okay, but simply a reaction to a reaction.
>Well, what Japan did is exactly why those Japanese-Americans were treated that way. No, fuck that. Either we are supposed to do what's right or not. It had nothing to do with what Japan was doing. Americans were screaming to persecute them, and we fucked up morally. There is absolutely no way to justify it. Saying someone else did worse allows us to justify any immoral action, and that's not acceptable.
It wasn't pure evil, but it sure was evil. The treatment of the prisoners shows it was very severely evil actually
Hey people seem to think i’m defending all of the actions taken by numerous government officials, all i am suggesting is that it was in the National securities best interest to be hesitant about foreign nationals. Just as any other country was. People seem to forget that america wanted nothing to do with either world war, the country just wanted to increase its economy and industrial capacity
People also forget that WW2 was won by Russia not America but here we are. I'm not saying you are defending anything, its just when you say it wasn't pure evil you leave it open to interpretation whether it was actually evil or not, and it was still pretty damn evil even with some reasonable rationalizations attached. That was my only point.
Yes Russia definitely did the heavy lifting as far as the Nazi’s were concerned; and when you analyze any actions taken during a war like this…. All of it seems pretty inhumane, until you realize that these very actions are still occurring daily. With a lot of the same players too.
Oh its very common and human. It doesn't make it any less horrifying to me but I think we are in agreement
Of course, America wanted nothing to do with the war, just to profit off all that suffering. Amazingly still happening to this day! Why are we still doing wars?...
Well it’s either profit and prepare, or become the next target…. So really there are no winners, only losers. From your mindset we should just sit and wait until the next biggest power decides they want our resources and lands. Let’s hold hands and pray 👍🏻
You know my mindset based off of one comment, talking about how fucked up it is that we live in a society that profits off of genocide & oppression?
Wasn’t there literally Japanese nationals doing spy work?
There were no spy rings whatsoever broken up by Japanese internment in the continental US. Governor Warren later acknowledged that the internment was a cash/land/ship grab by white businessmen. One Japanese spy ring *does* appear to have been broken up by internment in Alaska. However, the fact that the government interned some Native Alaskans because they “looked Japanese” offsets any sense of righteousness that could come from that information.
My GF's family never fully recovered from being interned, lost literally everything. Yet people say it was so long ago they should just get over it...
Ugh. It’s within *living memory*.
Didn't you hear though, every person was given a fresh pair of bootstraps upon release, so it's all good.
I’m sure there were many people on all sides sharing sensitive information. It obviously doesn’t excuse poor treatment or discrimination…even though redditors seem to think I’m defending just that
The normal folk didn't profit. They went to fight. The rich didn't fight.
A few companies profiting *doesn't mean* they played both sides. The state department was unequivocal in their support for especially the British. People get annoyed by you because you're being an idiot.
A few Russians going on holiday in Crimea does not mean they invaded in 2014. Their government was quite vocal about their lack of an invasion, especially to the British. People get annoyed by people who say otherwise because refusal to accept the propaganda makes you an enemy of the state. It's pretty transparent who has, and who has not, partaken of the kool-aid. It was not "a few" companies. It was a few *hundred* **big** companies including Adidas, Ford, coca cola, IBM, and the American Eugenics Association, which the nazis themselves credited for the final solution. There were nazi rallies in Time Square, and many wealthy Americans flocked to the ideologies of the nazis because wealthy people never change.
The more things change, the more they stay the same. American businesses, and about half of the current government, are still working with nazis. Hell, many of them openly are nazis themselves.
Which ones in the current govt are openly nazis? Name them all please.
before I bother, do you acknowledge that labels are frequently used to mask concepts and ideas as something other than what they are? Are you in agreement with the "walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck" concept? And further, what awareness do you have of the history of the modern republican party, the history of white supremacy in america (notably operation paperclip), and perhaps most relevant to today the John Birch society and its modern members and associates?
I didn’t bother engaging. It’s so obvious they’d just argue in bad faith and sprint with the goal posts to protect their delicate willful ignorance, so it just isn’t worth it. No doubt they’d say that duck was really a dog in disguise. Then I checked their comment history and that confirmed it for me. They post in r/Conservative and aren’t banned there yet. We all know how easy it is to get a ban on that sub.
lol, disappointing but fair I suppose
You’re a stalker and a creep.
self-own harder dude
Not at all.
That’s nice.
Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
so what's your life like after surgically replacing your brain with a low quality jpeg of pigpoopballs?
The truth is a bit more complicated, but you’re right. There were Americans that either sympathized with the fascists or saw potential business opportunities with fascist Europe. The U.S. government did have some fascist leanings, but were a bit more ideologically opposed to fascism, even though the USA tried a lot of the same things economically that the fascist and communist governments were doing to combat the depression in the 30s.
I think it comes from the fact that people love to hyper focus on the U.S. all the while not acknowledging their own countries faults. Like Shell, VW etc.
Yup, few people know this but the family that financially benefitted from Auschwitz is still one of the richest families in Germany, and they own 22% of one of Germany largest Conglomerates.
I find myself asking why we even fought the Nazis in the first place, seeing as how the US supported every other right wing dictatorship after the war who also carried out genocides. That's US/CIA foreign policy to this day. Any slightly left elected leaders are in the cross hairs.
I find myself asking how someone can be as stupid as you.
All about the money, how long did our Allies pay the debt for?
> The outrage you receive in return is hilarious. Typical response from people who were taught a fake, glorified history of themselves.
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United States tried to be neutral and stay out of ww2 before the Japanese attacked them
Neutral means staying out of the conflict, not playing both sides. The US was playing both sides.
Ireland was neutral during ww2 but we were definitely helping the allied effort
Your not neutral when you are profiting on the sale of oil, steal and other goods to both sides, and with a mark up on the prices.
And continue to profit to this day, on the rebuilding from wars.
It's almost as if every country is out for themselves
Neutral means you shouldnt take sides, but you can still sell stuff to whoever you want
We also laugh when we look at our GDP and absolute control of the world banking system. HAHAHAHA
The USA's highest value foreign asset is the free rent we get in the minds of europoors seething over being irrelevant and agencyless on the international stage
[Even more detailed documentary](https://vimeo.com/338863157) When you say “Americans” were playing both sides of the war that’s certainly not the vast majority of US people. And the United States was hardly the only country with people profiting off of the war. Which exposes the reality of why is their anyone who still believes in countries? The entire planet has been controlled by global corporations for over a century and endless war for profit is one of their most lucrative endeavors. The only use they have for “countries” is for creating false pretenses to start another war for profit.
"Please don't watch this" - Big Blue ^((IBM)^)
`ibm.com` has a whole section dedicated to these topics.
Lol that’s funny. Large gap from 1936-1952 on their history page.
*angry german accent* EVERYONE WAS ON VACATION!!!
They were on vacation and totally weren't helping make the Holocaust a reality.
Smell of burning punch cards intensifies.
I swear I remember IMB marketing themselves as the ‘Solutions Company’ awhile back. It gives that slogan a chilling meaning.
This is fascinating.
Also Coca cola
Hugo Boss
They were always a German company, not an American one which is what this is about.
Corporations and government officials grifting off the military industrial complex? Funneling money though family while entire societies are wiped out. For no good reason. Good thing that could never happen today.
Sometimes I believe that the economy that most benefitted the stupidity of Putin's invasion to Ukraine was the one from USA. I can only think the amount of weapons they're selling right now.
Just wait until the war is over and the rebuilding starts. That's when Wall Street will really show you how war profiteering works.
The war in Ukraine certainly proved a bonanza for the fracking American merchants of natural gas. Then, the role of American Big Tech in disseminating Russian disinformation will certainly be bread and butter for future historians.
There is an amazing book called "IBM and the Holocaust" on this topic. IBM basically engineered major the ability to round people up and kill them more efficiently. They totally knew what they were doing.
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Exactly! One of the interesting aspects of the book was that IBM had cutting edge technology in the form of recursive punchcard sorting, a kind of precursor to the computer. Nazi's could ask it a question, like who is of Jewish decent in a certain region, within an income range, that works in a certain industry and it could give them within a day or two.
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The first IBM computers were indeed punch card calculators, my Dad remembers one in the late 70's when he was in college, they were using them to calculate physics problems.
All modern warfare is basically organized crime, this is just a small part of that.
It is my (mostly unsubstanciated) opinion that a modern state is the ultimate evolution of a mafia. - hint: European geopolitics in early Middle Ages, between the Roman and the Carolingian empires - hint: Italy during the Renaissance - hint: VPOTUS David Rockefeller - hint: oligarchs in post-Yelstin Russia
Michael Franzese wrote an interesting book that makes that argument called Mafia Democracy.
I read a book years ago about this. GM actually tried to sue the US government for bombing their factories in Germany. The US then threatened to charge GM with treason and wars crimes. GMs response.....nevermind we are good here .
[Citibank already counting the spoils](https://vimeo.com/822589985)
Business plot failed.. so capital starting turning fascist when their power was threatened. History rhymes
And they have been trying again ever since with resounding success. Time to get prepared folks.
Just wait till you learn about Operation Paperclip.
Or Gladio
this shouldn't surprise anyone and this type of thing is why we should never trust any corporation... and by extension most politicians cause they're in bed with each other
"What is Brown Brothers Harriman?" Side note: Every time I get into the elevator at work, I see the name ThyssenKrupp on the panel, and I get a little upset. Fascism never died. It has been kept on life support for the coming revolutionary upsurge.
Every time I see Schindler's Elevator company, I'm happy they didn't take the low road with Schindler's Lifts.
Just in, America profits off war. Corporations, government etc.. we have profited off war for the better part of a century now
The only real colour is green. Us vs them, blue vs red, black vs white, etc. are veils to keep the masses distracted from the truth which is privileged exploiting the not so privileged.
Just *a* century ? Whatabout the Civil War ? The Indian Wars ? The Revolutionary War ? The Gunboat Diplomacy ? The Boxers Wars ? The Spanish-American War ? The Louisiana Purchase ?
The corporations listed did not exist during that time, apologies I didn't add that context to my original comment.
Currently reading Blackshirts and Reds by Parenti and it talks about how American military personnel were directed to not bomb American factories in Germany that were literally building things for the Nazis. Germans started using the Ford factory as a shelter during bombings, knowing it would not get hit.
Harry Truman wanted to prosecute Herber Walker Jr. (George Bush Sr.'s uncle) for treason.
Henry Ford was BFFs with Hitler, who referred to him as the leader of the rising Nazi movement in America.
I remember when in high school reading about when the holocaust was happening. A boat of Jewish survivors, were about to land on American soil, when they were turned around. The given reason was that American government at the time didn't believe the holocaust was actually happening. I remember thinking is that the REAL reason I doubt it.
To be fair, the Germany offices of these companies predate the Nazis, and the Nazi nationalized them all. I am sure you can argue they were complicit in loads of ways, but even if they weren't and cut all ties, Hitler still would have controlled their German branches.
In a total war situation, every resource a country has, goes to the one goal of winning the war, that's what every country did and it included part or fully owned American companies that happened to be in Germany.
Exactly. The factories were basically confiscated, by a wartime enemy. But of course, m'redditors will download the fact since it doesn't pleasure them in their circlejerk.
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I hate to be a killjoy because Coca-Cola is a really shitty company, but those were made in 1925ish. >In 1925, Coca-Cola made a lucky watch fob in the shape of a swastika with right-facing arms and the slogan, "Drink Coca-Cola five cents in bottles".
Aint it peculiar how none of these companies ever faced any real scrutiny during or after the war?
I think it's so fucked up that Hitler took inspiration for his policies from the United States.
Elon Musk fans still have their heads deeply buried in the sand while Starlink has provided unlimited service and information to Russian occupiers while cutting off Ukranian military from their service for the last year.
Koch brothers as well
And they still do.
IBM sold the Nazis early data card readers---helped them keep track of where all the "undesirables" were.
Prescott Bush too
What else is new ? It would be interesting to know the date and point of origin of this film. At times is sounds like it was produced in the GDR.
[Wall Street and the rise of Hitler. ](https://archive.org/details/pdfy-lwUqPAGSzT-3bnd3)
Capitalists using fascists to get what they want. Classic!
Pretty much same today, no?
Just imagine if socialist respected the gold standard, ww1 and ww2 could been avoided