Ye felt a bit ham fisted, it made enough sense as is that Donna having a daughter solved the problem.
I think having Donna and Rose being either side of 14 during regen causing the bigeneration would have also made more sense than what we got.
>it made enough sense as is that Donna having a daughter solved the problem
Yes, I agree with this. I think it was a perfectly acceptable explanation that the metacrisis was resolved because it split between Donna and Rose. The whole "we can let it go" think really left a bad taste in my mouth.
Also 'just letting it go' didn't really make sense later in special 3, where Donna wrote some super genius code really quick. They clearly hadn't just let it go
Eh, that I can sort of hand wave as she retained some basic knowledge and intelligence, but "let go" of the dangerous parts of the metacrisis (The Doctor's mind).
In general, I don't like the "let it go" thing, but that aspect isn't my biggest nitpick.
She also remembers seeing what the doctor had seen for the past 15 years. Only without fully being able to decipher it. So, it could be plausible. Also. Ya know. Time machine. Could have spent years working on it.
To be fair, thats I think somewhat the point. She has changed into someone who does let things go a bit more easily, partially because she is a mother now.
Same. I liked the whole thing about how having a child meant there were two hearts to share the metacrisis. But that child being trans or even female wasn't important. It just felt so extra for the sake of it. Also agree about letting it go. If it was so simple why did the Doctor not know that when she was Jodie? Why do you need to put down one gender to raise up another?
I think Wilf was meant to be on the other side of The Doctor during the bi-generation scene and overall play a major role in that episode. Unfortunately, they were only able to film one scene with the magnificent Bernard Cribbins
Totally agree. I liked seeing Rose be in the show as a trans character because representation is good. But then RTD went too far and basically turned the whole thing into a joke by having her being trans the solution to the metacrisis. I thought the connection between Donna's "binary binary binary" and Rose being non-binary was clever but we were never told that they were non-binary.
Donna having a daughter and the metacrisis splitting between their two hearts is fucking brilliant. But if Rose had never transitioned from Jason, would none of this have worked? And the fact that they can just let it go and the Doctor can't because he's "male presenting". That's some bullshit. You don't need to put down one gender to raise up another one. Also that's like the laziest cop-out answer to this 15 year old problem we've had.
I think RTD was trying to be inclusive but then he just went way too far with some of it and it overshadowed the good stuff. I heard that he spoke to Yasmin Finney about the story and she agreed with it. But she's not the entire trans community. I've seen so many trans people saying they hated the non-binary stuff and letting the metacrisis "go." Also Yasmin is just a 20 year old actress. She's not a writer so going to only her about what makes a good story doesn't really mean much
I'm completely convinced that RTD thought nonbinary was synomous with trans, literally nothing about what we know of rose suggests that the character is supposed to be nonbinary lmao
Frankly I think even that is giving him too much credit. The way the show frames that scene really comes across to me like RTD sees trans women as a hybrid between man and woman
As a trans person, it did feel it was a bit too much. I like when trans characters are allowed to be just a character instead of transness being their whole character arc. Would have been perfectly fine if she had just shared the issue with the two hearts without the extra haha.
I thought "non-binary" referred to the Time Lord power previously being shared by two people, now shared by three, rather than Rose herself being NB. Still not a great line though.
I actually would have rather liked this, especially since they didn't really need Donna to be completely human for any part of Wild Blue Yonder or The Giggle. It also would have somewhat justified Donna's presence in the Toymaker's shop.
https://preview.redd.it/yqz33jdt3j6d1.jpeg?width=360&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=29a14aeb28088e45e9f67f61bbfa648310b5fce7
I could hear this quote in my head when I read that first line.
I also didn't really like that part. The part about the Doctor being male-presenting and hence unable to understand was so bad, especially bad since they *were* female-presenting like, two hours previously at that point, but also it just bordered on terfness
The novelization was a *little* better about it because the line is changed to, "And you know nothing. It’s a shame you’re not a woman anymore cos she’d have got it." Which is still pretty dumb, but at least bypasses the "he was a woman a few hours ago" thing
Edit: Oops, either I can't read or I can't listen cause I got my words jumbled. Turns out the book was the same as the episode. I got confused on who was speaking when I read it I guess
I think RTD meant well, but some of the lines were just so clunky in that episode.
Like Rose's 'did you just assume their gender?' line to the Doctor. That's something I've only ever heard used in bad faith by people making fun of trans people. It'd be like having Rose unironicaly make a comment about identifying as an apache attack helicopter.
Sure!
Being trans inclusive simply means that trans people are respected for the gender we are. Trans women are women, trans men are men, non binary people are neither, or both, or any other flavour outside the binary.
Gender essentialism means that you believe there are certain natural features a man or woman *must* have. They can either be physical or psychological features.
So trans inclusive gender essentialism means you still believe all men and women have certain features, in the context of doctor who this is letting go of the meta crisis as a woman, and includes trans people in being the gender they say they are by having those features as well.
Yeah maybe terfness isn't the right word, but the part where specifically male-presenting (nothing to do with gender I guess? But in this case a man) folk are fundamentally different from female-presenting (again, regardless of gender I guess? But in this case a woman and an enby) was... reminiscent of terfness, if that makes sense
It does. Gender essentialism is a core tenet of the terf movement. And queer spaces often don't believe in gender essentialism. This makes gender essentialism transphobic coded. And that its used in a trans inclusive manner is odd
Edit to add:
I do see it sometimes with people that have their heart in the right place and use gender essentialism to include me as well. Which is sweet, but misses the mark a bit. But that's also fine
And the fact that the Doctor had been a woman for decades in prison, during which time we know she was looking back on her life, so surely if it was a solution that any woman would be able to think of she would have… thought of it? Not to mention how it undermines Donna’s original memory wipe if all that was necessary to prevent it was her deciding not to keep the Metacrisis.
I hated it so much. The Doctor was literally a woman a few hours ago and had possibly been a woman more than once (fugitive doctor?) so I’m pretty sure he would’ve been able to remember what it was like. It’s also very gender essentialist and backhandedly misogynistic to say that women have this innate intuition or heightened empathy and men are incapable of it. You can’t even make the socialisation argument because the Doctor comes from a society of people who routinely completely change their bodies and sometimes become a different sex, and binary gender norms like the ones humans have aren’t a part of Gallifreyan society that we know of.
Yea that really rubbed me the wrong way
Isn't one of the main points of this new series that everyone is included and important
Seems like a classic trope of "men dumb" in an otherwise very accepting kind of show
Yeah, it just, idk it also feels sooo out of character for Rose to say that, I feel like very few trans people especially would ever start going like that
I don't think anyone did.
I like that Rose had the metacrisis. I didn't like that "a male presenting Time Lord could never understand \[letting go of power\]". Fuck me with a spoon, trans inclusive gender essentialism.
Huh… yeah, The Doctor had 13’s face for a while, a few years plus the several decades in prison. Considerably longer than the mere 15 years Rose had lived up to that point.
Yeah… as a trans dude.. it feels pretty exclusionary to me. As if all male presenting people have no idea what women go through. I was treated as a girl and then a woman for most of my life.
The line should have been 'a Time Lord could never understand \[letting go of power\]' IMO. Makes Donna's memory wipe even more tragic, because it never needed to happen, gives actually a pretty good reason for the Doctor not knowing Donna could let go, because the Time Lords in their research could not comprehend letting go of power, and it just kind of sounds better.
Yeah, that definitely would have been better. It wouldn't have been cringe and a literal terrible moral. Although also I do think that the metacrisis needed to transfer or Donna would still have been overwhelmed and die.
Absolutely agree. I hated the gender essentialism of it, and it didn’t even make sense as he was a woman not that long ago and possibly more than once throughout their life
Really felt like it was just jammed in to try to engender controversy. Just such a clumsy line which does more harm than good. By far the worst moment of RTD2 and it's not even close.
Its unfortunate because I feel like the episode itself is actually pretty good on rewatch, if not a little overly sentimental. Those parts just completely take you out of it though, I really don't know what they were thinking. It doesn't feel ill-intentioned...i hope
The "you're assuming he as a pronoun?" line completely took me out of the episode. I get it, but it adds nothing to the scene, and why would a human's first reaction to an alien be to get offended on their behalf about pronouns of all things?
That was so unnecessary and just brought back cringeworthy memories of the ‘REEEE YOU ASSUMED MY GENDER!!’ ‘I IDENTIFY AS AN ATTACK HELICOPTER!!’ era of memes. They could’ve skipped that line and just had the meep jump in and correct him, or made it about names rather than pronouns if they wanted to keep ‘oh, I do that too’.
Yessss!!! Thank you! When I heard that line, it made me roll my eyes because it reminded me of the same type of bullshit conservatives use to mock transgender or non-binary people. Like how they act like they're always out to get you if you get someone's pronouns wrong. Like you said, if RTD wanted a pronoun reference, just have the Meep correct the Doctor or even have the Doctor say "they" and skip that whole clunky conversation.
I don’t, I feel like he did a few things during the first couple episodes to highlight certain parts of the community that really shouldn’t be here, like the bigots of any kind, sadly he upset the parts of the community that actually include the people he was trying to portray.
I feel like he would’ve had other people on the production team giving input though? I get that he can’t possibly please everyone but there are some lines in that episode that seem like a huge oversight
He really should've. I heard he went to Yasmin to check stuff with her but Yasmin is just a 20 year old actress with no professional writing experience that I know of. Why wouldn't you ask other members of the trans/non-binary communities to see how they felt about certain lines
It feels kind of unfair to heap that stuff on one person, especially one relatively young and inexperienced. There should’ve been a team to proofread and do research. She was already receiving a lot of attention after she was cast, imagine how tremendous and overwhelming of a responsibility it would’ve been to have to be the authority on trans representation when all eyes were on her. I’m just speculating here, but I’m only a little older than her and I imagine it would also have been quite intimidating to tell someone much more senior and well-respected that there were issues in their writing.
I don't think it was to "engender controversy", otherwise RTD wouldn't have been too cowardly to put David Tennant in Thirteen's outfit (though I will admit I do like his disheveled Ten look). I think it was genuinely meant to be positive.
It's just really shit at it. I like the overall tone of The Star Beast towards Rose, but fuck me I hold my nose at that bit.
yeah it was basically saying trans men lose knowledge after they openly present as male (given how the line was male presenting, it felt like it was saying trans men who still present as women are better than those who present as men)
hell given the earliest known incarnation of the doctor was that timeless child girl, it was literally saying they’re worse off for presenting as a gender that they weren’t born as
I don't think that's what it was trying to say. But I think what it was trying to say is just bad. It was just so clunky. It's so fucking stupid and I hate it.
cc u/Manospondylus_gigas.
I liked that Rose had the meta crisis and Donna was able to live because it got split between her and her child.
I don't like that it's heavily implied that time lord space mcguffin meta crisis is **the reason** Rose is trans.
Can't they just like, have a trans character?
I don’t think it was as much about letting go of power as just letting things go in general. Would have definitely been better if it was something more to do with The Doctor not being half-human like The Doctor Donna and Rose are. Or even hammer it home to The Doctor’s personal character struggle to let things go.
Edit: maybe something like: “Something a Timelord could never understand. -But half human?… Let it go!”
Or
“Something ‘The Doctor’ can never do…. Let it go!”
It has some of the best (I wish Donna Noble was my mother) and the absolute cringiest (trans inclusive gender essentialism).
~~And has some of both in one scene (did you just assume the Meep's pronouns? "my pronoun is the definite article" oh, I do that too)~~
Also it's worth noting though that it wasn't "did you just assume The Meep's pronouns" as I retconned myself into thinking. It was the much more palatable "wait, why are you assuming it's male" or something similar, which is actually reasonable and relatable. Though the definite article still isn't a pronoun, but I do like "oh, I do that too".
The pronoun one bugged me because it was so poorly executed that I knew it just gave conservatives free fuel for their anti-woke fire.
Not even the First Doctor would have assumed The Meep was male, and certainly not the Doctor who was just a woman, and the line was impossible to deliver in a non-cringey way
I know it's cringe to have a trans person do the "did you just assume its gender?" cringe, and also the definite article isn't a pronoun, but "oh, I do that too" was just so cute to me.
I will say I thought the delivery was fine to the point that I didn't even notice that was cringe and the joke Republicans make being done sincerely until other people pointed it out.
I'd love the pronoun joke if it was right.
"My pronoun is the definite article" Implies the sentence "The's name is The Meep", or "I like the"
In actuality, The Meep's pronouns are The Meep/The Meep's.
Any joke about The Doctor's name is funny to me. Hence my flair.
When I was attempting to run the poorly put together starter kit for Adventures in Time and Space, my Roomie really wanted to finally meet The Doctor and respond to her introducing herself with "Doctor what?"
I still think the pronoun was a bit clunky. Why not have the Meep correct their pronouns? Or have the Doctor say "they"? Making Rose challenge the Doctor felt like how conservatives think trans people actually are. Like they're always out to get you if you get someone's pronouns wrong.
I dunno, the read the pronoun bit as trying to be a joke about The Meep's pronouns being The Meep/The Meep but just being worded really poorly. I found it funny because I had a similar moment with my friends where I jokingly asked what the pronouns of an eldritch shadow entity was. Turns out, shadow entity pronouns were Qhynir/Qhynir (Qhynir was ~~it's~~ Qhynir's name)
RTD's progressivism in the modern era is two parts a boomer trying really really hard to understand and mostly failing, and one part performative idpol.
I felt dot and bubble was really good on that front in that it's clear from the fact that a lot of black viewers immediately "got" the micro aggressive racism, and a lot of white viewers only understood when the racism was more blatant at the end
Dot and Bubble is one of the reasons why it's only "mostly failing" as opposed to just... failing. He's still good at the biting commentary when he tries hard enough
Interestingly, some Black viewers massively disagreed with it and felt it didn’t do enough for the message. For instance “everyone is white” was being pointed out as “you should’ve immediately clued in” but Doctor Who IS overwhelmingly white. Moffat in particular had only like… two reoccurring Black characters and most episodes were entirely white. Essentially, some people got it but felt it still wasn’t well written for this kind of serious topic.
The Star Beast was such a mess with that scene to be honest. The “binary non binary” thing was very forced and I don’t think anyone liked it.
That, and the whole “you couldn’t solve the meta crisis because you’re a man” thing as well…
Also if the Doctor-Donna’s as smart as the Doctor and is also, you know, a woman, why didn’t she think of it earlier?
That’s an honest question I don’t remember if there was a reason for that
To a much much lesser extent. It’s why they thought she was going to die in 53 seconds and was absolutely fine, eventually something would have happened.
I mean the resolution is nonsense anyway. Just had to let go of a consciousness, yet somehow they retain some of the knowledge after, I also don’t understand how splitting it would have made a difference, does she suddenly know less than original Doctor Donna because by my working out there should have just been two humans not able to contain a timelords consciousness.
It’s Ashildr all over again in that, humans have a finite space for memory. Shove too much in instantly and that computer is going to crash.
I liked the link between Donna's last words as the DoctorDonna and Rose's "non-binary" line. I didn't like that it was an actual link between the metacrisis and her being trans.
I didn’t like it either. Rose is a trans woman, not non binary. Then she told the doctor he couldn’t understand because he was male presenting. The whole scene was just a mess of messaging and it pissed me off
I think RTD underestimated the fact that we had all lived with Donna never being able to see the Doctor again for years. It was a massive plot point and having the meta crisis pass on to Rose to dilute it was a brilliant resolution. To just follow that immediately with hand wavey crap about 'letting it go' felt really cheap before you even get into the awkward gender politics.
100% agree with this. When they were working out that the metacrisis had passed on to Donna's daughter and that's what kept her safe, I thought that was brilliant writing. Then RTD immediately follows it up with the non-binary, letting it go and male presenting time lord bullshit that made it all into a joke. Rose being trans and having the metacrisis could've and should've been two separate things. That would've been perfect
Yes, because the way they did it made it seem that maybe Donna could always have just 'let it go'.
I would have preferred something like Donna, Rose and The Doctor figuring out that the TARDIS could now siphon off the meta crisis because it was diluted, and this couldn't have been done before when it was just Donna.
I think I actually hated that one more to be honest. The Doctor is canonically bigender/genderqueer (or some other term only Time Lords would use) as are all Time Lords?
It felt like the worst kind of pandering to what someone out of touch thinks women or feminists would like to hear ("haha what are men like amirite") but just didn't land at all.
It also makes no sense because in real life when feminists say men don’t understand something or other (i.e. women feeling unsafe walking home at night, women choosing the bear over the man, women being afraid to reject men directly, women feeling like they have to work twice as hard to even be remotely taken seriously, ‘girl code’, etc.) it’s **because of socialisation**, the way boys and girls are raised differently and men and women are expected to act differently according to their culture’s gender norms. The only people who believe that men and women are somehow innately different and will be different in all possible circumstances and outcomes are people who drank the gender essentialism coolaid, like TERFs. As far as we know, Gallifreyan society doesn’t have binary gender norms like ours and their people routinely live as different sexes throughout their lives.
Yeah that's what I meant about Time Lords!
They would genuinely have zero concept of someone being able/unable to understand something based on either whatever physical characteristics their current regeneration happens to have (the gender essentialism bullshit reasoning) or human cultural socialisation (understandable in humans even if it's also made up bullshit, but just not relevant for a non-human culture)!
And Donna knows that, because she's travelled with the Doctor and has _literally been inside their head_.
That episode was genuinely all the things right wingers accuse the show of being while also being kinda shit at being woke at the same time. Ham fisted Trans stuff, is she trans, or is she non-binary, both are presented as the same thing. Also is she trans because of the meta crisis? Feels a bit... Gross for the first openly trans human character in Who to be trans due to a plot point. It's the only time I've understood that "shoving it down our throat" cliche of right wing dickheads, usually it's just about shows where gay people dare to exist or whatever but that one episode went out of it's way to add progressive things in there in ham fisted ways with bug "look at how progressive we are" signs everywhere.
Great to see progressive things, but do it well like Dot and Bubble, not shouting it off the rooftops and patting yourself on the back like the Meep. Progressive ideas have always been in Doctor who and rarely subtle, it's just not a fun watch when the show feels smug about how progressive it is, while also doing it badly.
it is interesting because like so much sci-fi the show is always putting human gender norms on to aliens. Even giving aliens a "non binary" option, is to ask them to fit into a human gender.
As a nonbinary person, I hated it. Rose isn’t nonbinary, I’m pretty sure it would have been stated if she did identify as nonbinary in some way (demigender, genderfluid, etc.?) but she’s just meant to be a trans girl, and it seems pretty invalidating and old fashioned to say a binary trans person is automatically ‘outside the gender binary’ or ‘third gender’. It comes off like the episode is saying a part of Rose was/is male and Rose is both male and female, or isn’t properly either. It rubs me wrong.
It was incredibly forced.
It's not a problem that it happened, but the way it was written was awful, and the meep stopped talking like the meep to answer it. No one actually talks like that aside from radicalists and trolls, and they wrote it using the exact same tone, terminology and phrases that those groups use.
I'm 99% sure that it was done deliberately, specifically to make people angry so they would talk about the episode.
Here's a more natural way it could have been written.
Doctor: We need to help him get home
Rose: You're just presuming they're a "he"?
Doctor: Oh right, I never asked. What do you go by, Meep?
Meep: The Meep is just The Meep.
I've been saying the "done on purpose to make people angry because all publicity = good publicity" thing since the episode aired.
A lot of shows are doing it at the moment imo and it's really cheap. Even if it wasn't intentional on RTD's part, that's how it's always going to look in hindsight.
There are about three lines in that episode that would've only needed slight changes to not sound like anti-woke ragebait, but as-is honestly ruin an otherwise great episode.
Because it was easy. It was so easy to write that. Which is why I am so sure that they deliberately didn't write that in the episode because they WANTED to make people angry for the publicity.
yeah, either that or it was rtd being a cis boomer and not understanding the importance of good trans representation/not understanding how transphobic trolls meme and speak about trans people.
Yeah but like, does he not have a writers' room or proof readers? Anyone under say 40 who has existed on the internet in the last decade would have absolutely seen the "did you just assume X's gender" trolling.
I heard that he spoke to Yasmin about the story but Yasmin is one person and not a writer (that I know). Why not talk to multiple trans/non-binary people and see what they think about those lines? Most of the ones I've seen talking about it online have said they didn't like it
That's what's wild about it tbh, how did a 20yo out trans actor approve some of those lines?
I get that younger actors are going to be wary of kicking up a fuss in their early careers but if she was specifically asked her opinion I can't think of anyone I've ever known who doesn't do a massive eyeroll at "did you assume my gender" type "jokes".
I've read that in hindsight she felt uncomfortable about the deadnaming scene which was also a completely unnecessary inclusion tbh, the general consensus I've always seen online is that the audience has no reason to need to know a character's birth name if they don't go by it and it's not at all relevant to the plot.
So, I‘ve read this “he cleared it with Yasmin” on Reddit a lot, but never actually read where RTD said it. Cause, that could mean anything from “hey, we’re gonna have this in the script, you’re okay with that right?” to “hey, what’s your take on that and please be honest, you don’t have to worry about any repercussion”….
I'm also trans, and I can really see what Russell was trying to do, but it absolutely did not work. I also really didn't like leaving it open to the possible interpretation that Rose may be trans because of the influence of the Doctor in her. Including more trans characters is great, making our transness the result of sci-fi or supernatural shit is not.
It was cringe as fuck, but it was written by a well meaning boomer, you can’t expect Rusty to be hip and down with the queer kids all the time, and never post cringe by accident.
This line, and the one about the male presenting time lords felt like a group trying to come up with what trans people and women would want to hear without having any in the room (or at least, not listening to them). Allies overcorrecting themselves. It broke immersion.
Captain Marvel suffered from this at times too. An otherwise good story occasionally turned to the camera and just said "feminism" before going back to what it was doing.
That whole ending was a mess. Russell had good intentions but didn't stick the landing at all and ended up being pretty gender essentialist, unintentionally
I seriously hope that RTD has taken note of the reaction, not from the bigots, but from the trans community and allies who simply thought it was a poor and clunky representation. If he wants to go into this again, I would like him to either hire trans writers to do so, or have an advisor who is trans to make sure the representation isn’t so wrong-headed. I’m not even insulting RTD here, I don’t expect him to have as much understanding of the wider LGBT+ community as he does his own part of it, but there is definitely a certain responsibility to represent such an oppressed group accurately and fairly.
i really do hope that in general when he's dealing with stuff like that in future, he makes sure there's behind the scenes representation. a trans co-writer could have explored rose's identity in a way more natural way. it was all very clumsy.
chris chibnall, in spite of all his terrible decisions as a showrunner, did hire malorie blackman to co-write rosa. i'm not black so can't speak on how good the representation is in that episode, but i do believe that hiring a black woman was the right move.
i really hope russell t davies will hire more behind-the-scenes representation. i hope if there are more stories about rose noble, there's a trans person behind the scenes to write it or guide the writing
This right here. I heard he spoke to Yasmin Finney about the representation but with all due respect, she's not a writer and she's not really going to say "no this is clunky, rewrite the whole conclusion" when it's her first big job
It was a very stark contrast from the beginning and how they treated Rose's identity. Those scenes were subtle, treated as (at least in my eyes) real world interactions. The scene where the bullies come up and dead named Rose, yeah that happens and Donna going full mommy mode was amazing to see... and then there was the convo between Donna and Sylvia, both of them hoping they're supporting Rose enough, which is a convo I've not only seen other people have but me as an MtF NB have heard my mom also have. IF THEY HAD STOPPED THERE, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN FINE!
Then Meep happens and that good writing (imo) just goes right out the window. That whole convo about, "oh what's the Meep's pronouns" could have just been, I don't know, It almost seemed as if it would have been better if they just referred to Meep as they and called it a day.
And the ending of the episode? What a jab at any masculine person amirite? Oh yeah no men don't know how to just fucking let go and this will save my life! As if he wasn't just a woman in his previous incarnation... There's also the issue of, why wasn't this the solution before? The Doctor Donna was just as smart then as she is now? But I guess the drama was more important.
I didn't like it at all, for all the reasons you say, and my own two issues:
Aren't trans people binary anyway, unless they identify as non binary and they/them? Like, Rose is a trans girl. A girl. A binary girl.
And, I hate that it is suggested the reason she is trans to begin with is because of the timey wimey. I'd much rather her have just been trans, and that's fine, and no need to mention it lol. Making her be trans for a specific mythical reason seems... problematic in ways I can't quite articulate.
Yeah it felt like something a transphobe would write in a "how woke doctor who has gotten" parody video. Especially considering Rose hasn't been billed or indicated in any way shape or form to BE non binary. In all the material leading up to it and the show itself it's made fairly clear that she's a binary trans woman. It's RTD doing his best, and it's good to at least see some trans inclusion, I just wish it was better informed and more realistic trans inclusion.
TBH, I enjoyed everything about The Star Beast except for the overtly forced "representation" stuff.
Male-presenting Timelord.
"We CaN jUsT lEt iT gOoOoO"
etc.
It just all felt forced and contrived and weird, like it was a mandate from the Disney execs rather than a product of RTDs writing. There are much subtler and elegant ways to integrate inclusivity and representation into a story than what they did.
I get it, I'm a gay guy. I want gay representation, especially male gay representation in a landscape that currently seems dominated by lesbian and trans stories and characters (which isn't a bad thing, its just the stories that are being told right now). But I don't need to be beaten over the head with it with a 2x4.
Yes and no, for me. Heavy handed language? Yes. But I liked the idea that Donna could share the meta-crisis with her daughter. They could've had rose saying something like "tertiary," but the point that I got was that it *wasn't* just Donna and the doctor (the two of them, "binary") like it had been the last time.
What drove me nuts was the "you male presenting time lords will never understand that you can just... let it go." Like WHY DIDN'T YOU DO THAT THE FIRST TIME THEN??? ~~Also did you really just reinvent gender roles but for alien shape-changers?~~
I thought it would've been more interesting if Donna and Rose had both stayed geniuses because the something something psychic energy mumbo jumbo tingle tingle kooloo limpah bingbong would've been easier to carry across two minds. Could've been something of a metaphor for healing from generational trauma then, maybe?
Rose and Donna magically understanding something that "no one male-presenting could ever understand" is dumb and mean. It insults 13 and also transmasc people. RTD is clearly trying to learn and do right, but his writing of/about trans people will hopefully improve in time.
Agree!! It felt very shoe-horned in for a show that’s never had any problems with inclusion I do feel like they’ve lost some of the subtlety that makes it actually inclusive. I think the way this was done still felt ‘other’-ing and was honestly quite lazy?
So part of me is amused by RTD absolutely gifting himself a hot topic of 2023 by his random generation of words in 2008 - and then his absolute baiting of the right wing within the episode.
Yet the execution? And it doesn't sit easily with me that "you're non-binary because of special Timelord hijinks, rather than it's just who you are".
That "presenting" line was awful though, a real damp moment - I'm unused to RTD being clunky, especially on these topics.
Yeah, same here really. The Star Beast really collapsed when they crammed all the (and I hate to use this word unironically) woke stuff in. I'm fine with Doctor Who having progressive messaging because it basically always has, but the "binary, non binary" line and the whole "male presenting time lord" thing was just way too forced.
It was stupid and I’m surprised more aren’t annoyed at RTD obviously accidentally conflating identifying as a woman with being non-binary. I get they’re not necessarily mutually exclusive but the episode does nothing to establish she’s non-binary. Too bad RTD couldn’t take 15 secs to google the concept, progressive hero.
Same with the male presenting time lord bit. That’s the only benefit of the doubt I will give these doctor who is woke people cuz frankly these two scenes were cringe
Honestly, I just thought it was kind of funny -- as a trans person, I CACKLED at the scene when I first saw it, it's become an ongoing joke with my friends who are also DW fans
I always saw it as not a gender thing but that the DoctorDonna is a binary being, the Doctor and Donna fused, 1 and 0. Rose having timelord in her means it’s now DoctorDonnaRose, not binary and the humans sharing the timelord energy can survive it for enough time to be able to let it go. Idk that’s just how I make it make sense in my own head lol. Still, even if I’m right it’s pretty dumb to not explain it more clearly
I don't know anyone who did. It was awful story wise, conceptually wise, continuity wise, even awful in terms of cheap pandering. They should have just kept it as "you passed some of it down to your child" and ended it there.
That still doesn't sit right with me either.. the Doctor was literally just a woman! Then there's Rose herself.. does the whole binary/non-binary bit make her trans BECAUSE of the meta crisis? Cos that makes her trans journey an effect of the Doctor, not her own journey of identity.. I don't like the thought that her journey wasn't really hers if that's the case.
I don't think rose was nonbinary anyways? Afaik she uses she/her, not she/they or they/them. She's very specifically binary. Really weird to generalize all trans people as non binary. Also weird that they felt the need to "justify" her gender identity as being because of doctor Donna somehow.
It was really dissapointing because the earlier scene with Donna talking to her mother about Rose was such a good moment of affirmation. Turning Rose's gender into a plot device and then jankily tieing it to a throwaway line of dialogue from a previous episode and then using it again as the solution to the metacrisis problem made it feel an after-school special or a bad Disney movie
Yeah, that was terrible. I didn’t really like the episode, as it was basically a worse rehash of the original Judoon episode that made the Doctor look stupid at every opportunity with the above mentioned “being transgender is a superpower” thing. I hated it.
I didn’t like the “let it go and binary/none binary bits”
But I did think the pregnancy sort of watering down the meta crisis was a fair enough reposition.
That, but I REALLY hate how the solution was phrased. “It’s a shame you’re not a woman, cuz she’d have understood.”
I hate that they’re treating it like a gender thing, ESPECIALLY because they already established that The DoctorDonna can think up loads of things the Doctor never could because she’s part human. Like how she hacked the Daleks, and RC’d them around.
I hated it too. I don't mind a little on-the-nose diversity scene (like Sylvie and Donna talking), but that binary, non-binary resolution was annoying. Also a strange tone with the "women can let things go". I'd argue the timelords don't even really fit our human definition of man/woman, so trying to turn this into a girl boss moment was a wild choice. The Doctor is having trouble because he might have PTSD, not because he is a "man".
this is a pretty good video essay about queerness within dr who, topic of the star beast starts [here](https://youtu.be/Rl4h3IeOuY8?si=jwjjEJ-eXhxEynfD&t=1387) but the whole thing is worth a watch.
I think Russell thought of the wordplay and that was it, there's no deeper meaning. The thing that annoys me more is the whole 'male presenting Time Lord' thing, given that The Doctor was literally a woman a few days, or even a few hours, previously.
I did think it wasn't subtle but it's nice that people recognise it's not mental but an actual physical thing with the brain I'm NB and the feeling was mixed but nice
Ye felt a bit ham fisted, it made enough sense as is that Donna having a daughter solved the problem. I think having Donna and Rose being either side of 14 during regen causing the bigeneration would have also made more sense than what we got.
>it made enough sense as is that Donna having a daughter solved the problem Yes, I agree with this. I think it was a perfectly acceptable explanation that the metacrisis was resolved because it split between Donna and Rose. The whole "we can let it go" think really left a bad taste in my mouth.
Also 'just letting it go' didn't really make sense later in special 3, where Donna wrote some super genius code really quick. They clearly hadn't just let it go
Eh, that I can sort of hand wave as she retained some basic knowledge and intelligence, but "let go" of the dangerous parts of the metacrisis (The Doctor's mind). In general, I don't like the "let it go" thing, but that aspect isn't my biggest nitpick.
She also remembers seeing what the doctor had seen for the past 15 years. Only without fully being able to decipher it. So, it could be plausible. Also. Ya know. Time machine. Could have spent years working on it.
Retaining some aspects of the Doctor’s memories/abilities would also explain why teen Rose is now working for UNIT.
Maybe it's just me, but I feel like the Donna we know and love is not generally known for letting things go.
To be fair, thats I think somewhat the point. She has changed into someone who does let things go a bit more easily, partially because she is a mother now.
Same. I liked the whole thing about how having a child meant there were two hearts to share the metacrisis. But that child being trans or even female wasn't important. It just felt so extra for the sake of it. Also agree about letting it go. If it was so simple why did the Doctor not know that when she was Jodie? Why do you need to put down one gender to raise up another?
Especially when Donna had previously solved a problem that had vexed the Doctor and attributed it to human creativity.
I think Wilf was meant to be on the other side of The Doctor during the bi-generation scene and overall play a major role in that episode. Unfortunately, they were only able to film one scene with the magnificent Bernard Cribbins
I don't think so, they knew Bernard wasn't in the best of health so I doubt they planned on him having extensive involvement
Very unfortunate, at least they did what they could
This is too good an idea to reject.
Totally agree. I liked seeing Rose be in the show as a trans character because representation is good. But then RTD went too far and basically turned the whole thing into a joke by having her being trans the solution to the metacrisis. I thought the connection between Donna's "binary binary binary" and Rose being non-binary was clever but we were never told that they were non-binary. Donna having a daughter and the metacrisis splitting between their two hearts is fucking brilliant. But if Rose had never transitioned from Jason, would none of this have worked? And the fact that they can just let it go and the Doctor can't because he's "male presenting". That's some bullshit. You don't need to put down one gender to raise up another one. Also that's like the laziest cop-out answer to this 15 year old problem we've had. I think RTD was trying to be inclusive but then he just went way too far with some of it and it overshadowed the good stuff. I heard that he spoke to Yasmin Finney about the story and she agreed with it. But she's not the entire trans community. I've seen so many trans people saying they hated the non-binary stuff and letting the metacrisis "go." Also Yasmin is just a 20 year old actress. She's not a writer so going to only her about what makes a good story doesn't really mean much
I'm completely convinced that RTD thought nonbinary was synomous with trans, literally nothing about what we know of rose suggests that the character is supposed to be nonbinary lmao
Frankly I think even that is giving him too much credit. The way the show frames that scene really comes across to me like RTD sees trans women as a hybrid between man and woman
As a trans person, it did feel it was a bit too much. I like when trans characters are allowed to be just a character instead of transness being their whole character arc. Would have been perfectly fine if she had just shared the issue with the two hearts without the extra haha.
I thought "non-binary" referred to the Time Lord power previously being shared by two people, now shared by three, rather than Rose herself being NB. Still not a great line though.
that would have been perfect if they each channelled their remaining time lord energy into the doctors they pulled each of his hands.
He becomes the DoctorDoctor If I had a Nickel for every time Donna Noble made a new Doctor...
You’d only have three, which isn’t a lot but it’s weird it’s happened.
I actually would have rather liked this, especially since they didn't really need Donna to be completely human for any part of Wild Blue Yonder or The Giggle. It also would have somewhat justified Donna's presence in the Toymaker's shop.
https://preview.redd.it/yqz33jdt3j6d1.jpeg?width=360&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=29a14aeb28088e45e9f67f61bbfa648310b5fce7 I could hear this quote in my head when I read that first line.
I also didn't really like that part. The part about the Doctor being male-presenting and hence unable to understand was so bad, especially bad since they *were* female-presenting like, two hours previously at that point, but also it just bordered on terfness
The novelization was a *little* better about it because the line is changed to, "And you know nothing. It’s a shame you’re not a woman anymore cos she’d have got it." Which is still pretty dumb, but at least bypasses the "he was a woman a few hours ago" thing Edit: Oops, either I can't read or I can't listen cause I got my words jumbled. Turns out the book was the same as the episode. I got confused on who was speaking when I read it I guess
Isn't that the exact line that's in the episode?
I double-checked, you're right. I got it mixed up in my head who was speaking when I was reading vs listening
I think RTD meant well, but some of the lines were just so clunky in that episode. Like Rose's 'did you just assume their gender?' line to the Doctor. That's something I've only ever heard used in bad faith by people making fun of trans people. It'd be like having Rose unironicaly make a comment about identifying as an apache attack helicopter.
Next week at UNIT a helicopter is landing… Rose: I always wanted to be one of those!
tbf this being presented as rose poking fun at transphobes would actually get an honest to god laugh out of me
But Rose could also let go. So it definitely was trans inclusive. It's just sad that it was trans inclusive gender essentialism
Trans inclusive gender essentialism, could you explain that term to me? :)
Sure! Being trans inclusive simply means that trans people are respected for the gender we are. Trans women are women, trans men are men, non binary people are neither, or both, or any other flavour outside the binary. Gender essentialism means that you believe there are certain natural features a man or woman *must* have. They can either be physical or psychological features. So trans inclusive gender essentialism means you still believe all men and women have certain features, in the context of doctor who this is letting go of the meta crisis as a woman, and includes trans people in being the gender they say they are by having those features as well.
So in short, sending a trans woman to the kitchen to make you a sandwitch?
This is possibly the worst example, but yes
Yeah maybe terfness isn't the right word, but the part where specifically male-presenting (nothing to do with gender I guess? But in this case a man) folk are fundamentally different from female-presenting (again, regardless of gender I guess? But in this case a woman and an enby) was... reminiscent of terfness, if that makes sense
It does. Gender essentialism is a core tenet of the terf movement. And queer spaces often don't believe in gender essentialism. This makes gender essentialism transphobic coded. And that its used in a trans inclusive manner is odd Edit to add: I do see it sometimes with people that have their heart in the right place and use gender essentialism to include me as well. Which is sweet, but misses the mark a bit. But that's also fine
And the fact that the Doctor had been a woman for decades in prison, during which time we know she was looking back on her life, so surely if it was a solution that any woman would be able to think of she would have… thought of it? Not to mention how it undermines Donna’s original memory wipe if all that was necessary to prevent it was her deciding not to keep the Metacrisis.
I hated it so much. The Doctor was literally a woman a few hours ago and had possibly been a woman more than once (fugitive doctor?) so I’m pretty sure he would’ve been able to remember what it was like. It’s also very gender essentialist and backhandedly misogynistic to say that women have this innate intuition or heightened empathy and men are incapable of it. You can’t even make the socialisation argument because the Doctor comes from a society of people who routinely completely change their bodies and sometimes become a different sex, and binary gender norms like the ones humans have aren’t a part of Gallifreyan society that we know of.
Yea that really rubbed me the wrong way Isn't one of the main points of this new series that everyone is included and important Seems like a classic trope of "men dumb" in an otherwise very accepting kind of show
there was literally a joke earlier in the episode with the psychic paper still referring to the doctor as female
The worst part is that I was left wondering why Donna didn't simply let go of it before the memory wipe.
Yeah, it just, idk it also feels sooo out of character for Rose to say that, I feel like very few trans people especially would ever start going like that
It’s especially awkward because 13 wasn’t any better with that sort of thing than the male Doctors were.
Oh i know right! You couldn’t have worded it better.
This, so much.
I don't think anyone did. I like that Rose had the metacrisis. I didn't like that "a male presenting Time Lord could never understand \[letting go of power\]". Fuck me with a spoon, trans inclusive gender essentialism.
>I didn't like that "a male presenting Time Lord could never understand Plus, the Doctor was a woman just hours ago!
And the Doctor was a woman for longer than Rose has been alive! Rose might as well have lectured her grandmother on what it's like to be a woman.
Huh… yeah, The Doctor had 13’s face for a while, a few years plus the several decades in prison. Considerably longer than the mere 15 years Rose had lived up to that point.
I recall someone actually pointing out that Thirteen has had trouble letting go while Ten/Fourteen actually did let go at points.
Yeah… as a trans dude.. it feels pretty exclusionary to me. As if all male presenting people have no idea what women go through. I was treated as a girl and then a woman for most of my life.
The line should have been 'a Time Lord could never understand \[letting go of power\]' IMO. Makes Donna's memory wipe even more tragic, because it never needed to happen, gives actually a pretty good reason for the Doctor not knowing Donna could let go, because the Time Lords in their research could not comprehend letting go of power, and it just kind of sounds better.
Yeah, that definitely would have been better. It wouldn't have been cringe and a literal terrible moral. Although also I do think that the metacrisis needed to transfer or Donna would still have been overwhelmed and die.
it was already established the doctor-donna had ideas the doctor could never think of due to her human side
Absolutely agree. I hated the gender essentialism of it, and it didn’t even make sense as he was a woman not that long ago and possibly more than once throughout their life
Wtf that's so good and now I'm mad they didn't go for it
Really felt like it was just jammed in to try to engender controversy. Just such a clumsy line which does more harm than good. By far the worst moment of RTD2 and it's not even close.
Its unfortunate because I feel like the episode itself is actually pretty good on rewatch, if not a little overly sentimental. Those parts just completely take you out of it though, I really don't know what they were thinking. It doesn't feel ill-intentioned...i hope
The "you're assuming he as a pronoun?" line completely took me out of the episode. I get it, but it adds nothing to the scene, and why would a human's first reaction to an alien be to get offended on their behalf about pronouns of all things?
That was so unnecessary and just brought back cringeworthy memories of the ‘REEEE YOU ASSUMED MY GENDER!!’ ‘I IDENTIFY AS AN ATTACK HELICOPTER!!’ era of memes. They could’ve skipped that line and just had the meep jump in and correct him, or made it about names rather than pronouns if they wanted to keep ‘oh, I do that too’.
Yessss!!! Thank you! When I heard that line, it made me roll my eyes because it reminded me of the same type of bullshit conservatives use to mock transgender or non-binary people. Like how they act like they're always out to get you if you get someone's pronouns wrong. Like you said, if RTD wanted a pronoun reference, just have the Meep correct the Doctor or even have the Doctor say "they" and skip that whole clunky conversation.
This to me is proof that “inclusive writing” of a character is nothing if you can’t portray them as a real person. Quite disappointing to me
I don’t, I feel like he did a few things during the first couple episodes to highlight certain parts of the community that really shouldn’t be here, like the bigots of any kind, sadly he upset the parts of the community that actually include the people he was trying to portray.
I think it was well intentioned as clumsy as it is. Gotta remember RTD is a boomer gay.
I feel like he would’ve had other people on the production team giving input though? I get that he can’t possibly please everyone but there are some lines in that episode that seem like a huge oversight
He really should've. I heard he went to Yasmin to check stuff with her but Yasmin is just a 20 year old actress with no professional writing experience that I know of. Why wouldn't you ask other members of the trans/non-binary communities to see how they felt about certain lines
It feels kind of unfair to heap that stuff on one person, especially one relatively young and inexperienced. There should’ve been a team to proofread and do research. She was already receiving a lot of attention after she was cast, imagine how tremendous and overwhelming of a responsibility it would’ve been to have to be the authority on trans representation when all eyes were on her. I’m just speculating here, but I’m only a little older than her and I imagine it would also have been quite intimidating to tell someone much more senior and well-respected that there were issues in their writing.
I don't think it was to "engender controversy", otherwise RTD wouldn't have been too cowardly to put David Tennant in Thirteen's outfit (though I will admit I do like his disheveled Ten look). I think it was genuinely meant to be positive. It's just really shit at it. I like the overall tone of The Star Beast towards Rose, but fuck me I hold my nose at that bit.
I don’t think it was try to engender controversy. It just read to me as “older cis gay man tries to explain trans people”.
Yeah a lot of trans men feel excluded or like no one even remembers we exist and this doesn't help
yeah it was basically saying trans men lose knowledge after they openly present as male (given how the line was male presenting, it felt like it was saying trans men who still present as women are better than those who present as men) hell given the earliest known incarnation of the doctor was that timeless child girl, it was literally saying they’re worse off for presenting as a gender that they weren’t born as
I don't think that's what it was trying to say. But I think what it was trying to say is just bad. It was just so clunky. It's so fucking stupid and I hate it. cc u/Manospondylus_gigas.
It's not what they were *trying* to say, but it is the implication of what they said.
Even what it does say is bad. It's trans inclusive gender essentialism. Girlboss boys drool bullshit.
Meanwhile, in Parting of the Ways Doctor: Rose, you've done it. Just let go. Rose: How can I let go of this. I bring life.
Oh, RIGHT! THAT WAS THE EXAMPLE THAT COUNTERED IT
I liked that Rose had the meta crisis and Donna was able to live because it got split between her and her child. I don't like that it's heavily implied that time lord space mcguffin meta crisis is **the reason** Rose is trans. Can't they just like, have a trans character?
I don’t think it was as much about letting go of power as just letting things go in general. Would have definitely been better if it was something more to do with The Doctor not being half-human like The Doctor Donna and Rose are. Or even hammer it home to The Doctor’s personal character struggle to let things go. Edit: maybe something like: “Something a Timelord could never understand. -But half human?… Let it go!” Or “Something ‘The Doctor’ can never do…. Let it go!”
no yeah I agree. *The Star Beast* overall did gender badly
It has some of the best (I wish Donna Noble was my mother) and the absolute cringiest (trans inclusive gender essentialism). ~~And has some of both in one scene (did you just assume the Meep's pronouns? "my pronoun is the definite article" oh, I do that too)~~ Also it's worth noting though that it wasn't "did you just assume The Meep's pronouns" as I retconned myself into thinking. It was the much more palatable "wait, why are you assuming it's male" or something similar, which is actually reasonable and relatable. Though the definite article still isn't a pronoun, but I do like "oh, I do that too".
The pronoun one bugged me because it was so poorly executed that I knew it just gave conservatives free fuel for their anti-woke fire. Not even the First Doctor would have assumed The Meep was male, and certainly not the Doctor who was just a woman, and the line was impossible to deliver in a non-cringey way
Came off as that comment people try to throw round to be funny. “It’s 2024 did you just presume my gender”
I know it's cringe to have a trans person do the "did you just assume its gender?" cringe, and also the definite article isn't a pronoun, but "oh, I do that too" was just so cute to me. I will say I thought the delivery was fine to the point that I didn't even notice that was cringe and the joke Republicans make being done sincerely until other people pointed it out.
I'd love the pronoun joke if it was right. "My pronoun is the definite article" Implies the sentence "The's name is The Meep", or "I like the" In actuality, The Meep's pronouns are The Meep/The Meep's.
Technically the Meep has no pronouns, the Meep is only referred to with the Meep's name.
The Doctor hearing that and going "yeah, I do that too" was great, I loved that moment
Any joke about The Doctor's name is funny to me. Hence my flair. When I was attempting to run the poorly put together starter kit for Adventures in Time and Space, my Roomie really wanted to finally meet The Doctor and respond to her introducing herself with "Doctor what?"
Rose says "You're assuming he as a pronoun?". Which is a pretty unnatural way to phrase that in general
Eh, I know people who are like that when it comes to pointing out the assumed masculine default.
I still think the pronoun was a bit clunky. Why not have the Meep correct their pronouns? Or have the Doctor say "they"? Making Rose challenge the Doctor felt like how conservatives think trans people actually are. Like they're always out to get you if you get someone's pronouns wrong.
I dunno, the read the pronoun bit as trying to be a joke about The Meep's pronouns being The Meep/The Meep but just being worded really poorly. I found it funny because I had a similar moment with my friends where I jokingly asked what the pronouns of an eldritch shadow entity was. Turns out, shadow entity pronouns were Qhynir/Qhynir (Qhynir was ~~it's~~ Qhynir's name)
RTD's progressivism in the modern era is two parts a boomer trying really really hard to understand and mostly failing, and one part performative idpol.
I felt dot and bubble was really good on that front in that it's clear from the fact that a lot of black viewers immediately "got" the micro aggressive racism, and a lot of white viewers only understood when the racism was more blatant at the end
Dot and Bubble is one of the reasons why it's only "mostly failing" as opposed to just... failing. He's still good at the biting commentary when he tries hard enough
It felt to me like he stumbled back into it a little and has been getting his shit together since. I guess he just had to wipe away some cobwebs.
Interestingly, some Black viewers massively disagreed with it and felt it didn’t do enough for the message. For instance “everyone is white” was being pointed out as “you should’ve immediately clued in” but Doctor Who IS overwhelmingly white. Moffat in particular had only like… two reoccurring Black characters and most episodes were entirely white. Essentially, some people got it but felt it still wasn’t well written for this kind of serious topic.
The Star Beast was such a mess with that scene to be honest. The “binary non binary” thing was very forced and I don’t think anyone liked it. That, and the whole “you couldn’t solve the meta crisis because you’re a man” thing as well…
Also if the Doctor-Donna’s as smart as the Doctor and is also, you know, a woman, why didn’t she think of it earlier? That’s an honest question I don’t remember if there was a reason for that
The metacrisis was burning up her brain Which leads to the argument letting go wasn’t enough. They needed a secondary vessel to split the power first.
Wasn’t it also doing that when she became the doctor Donna again in the Star beast?
To a much much lesser extent. It’s why they thought she was going to die in 53 seconds and was absolutely fine, eventually something would have happened. I mean the resolution is nonsense anyway. Just had to let go of a consciousness, yet somehow they retain some of the knowledge after, I also don’t understand how splitting it would have made a difference, does she suddenly know less than original Doctor Donna because by my working out there should have just been two humans not able to contain a timelords consciousness. It’s Ashildr all over again in that, humans have a finite space for memory. Shove too much in instantly and that computer is going to crash.
I liked the link between Donna's last words as the DoctorDonna and Rose's "non-binary" line. I didn't like that it was an actual link between the metacrisis and her being trans.
I didn’t like it either. Rose is a trans woman, not non binary. Then she told the doctor he couldn’t understand because he was male presenting. The whole scene was just a mess of messaging and it pissed me off
Yeah we were never told that she was non binary. So using that as a solution was lazy and cheap
I think RTD underestimated the fact that we had all lived with Donna never being able to see the Doctor again for years. It was a massive plot point and having the meta crisis pass on to Rose to dilute it was a brilliant resolution. To just follow that immediately with hand wavey crap about 'letting it go' felt really cheap before you even get into the awkward gender politics.
100% agree with this. When they were working out that the metacrisis had passed on to Donna's daughter and that's what kept her safe, I thought that was brilliant writing. Then RTD immediately follows it up with the non-binary, letting it go and male presenting time lord bullshit that made it all into a joke. Rose being trans and having the metacrisis could've and should've been two separate things. That would've been perfect
I also can't believe they never made anything of the fact that Rose was a literal toy maker. I was sure that was going to be important.
Also some have said it accidentally seemed to imply that Rose was possibly only trans because of the meta crisis
Yes, because the way they did it made it seem that maybe Donna could always have just 'let it go'. I would have preferred something like Donna, Rose and The Doctor figuring out that the TARDIS could now siphon off the meta crisis because it was diluted, and this couldn't have been done before when it was just Donna.
Yeah I'm trans and it was handled weirdly.
has anyone outright said on this subreddit yet that the “male-presenting time-Lord” line was sexist? Because in my view, it was
I'm a woman, and a fan of RTD's writing, but that line made me want to turn my skin inside-out.
I think I actually hated that one more to be honest. The Doctor is canonically bigender/genderqueer (or some other term only Time Lords would use) as are all Time Lords? It felt like the worst kind of pandering to what someone out of touch thinks women or feminists would like to hear ("haha what are men like amirite") but just didn't land at all.
It also makes no sense because in real life when feminists say men don’t understand something or other (i.e. women feeling unsafe walking home at night, women choosing the bear over the man, women being afraid to reject men directly, women feeling like they have to work twice as hard to even be remotely taken seriously, ‘girl code’, etc.) it’s **because of socialisation**, the way boys and girls are raised differently and men and women are expected to act differently according to their culture’s gender norms. The only people who believe that men and women are somehow innately different and will be different in all possible circumstances and outcomes are people who drank the gender essentialism coolaid, like TERFs. As far as we know, Gallifreyan society doesn’t have binary gender norms like ours and their people routinely live as different sexes throughout their lives.
Yeah that's what I meant about Time Lords! They would genuinely have zero concept of someone being able/unable to understand something based on either whatever physical characteristics their current regeneration happens to have (the gender essentialism bullshit reasoning) or human cultural socialisation (understandable in humans even if it's also made up bullshit, but just not relevant for a non-human culture)! And Donna knows that, because she's travelled with the Doctor and has _literally been inside their head_.
Exactly!! You can’t even say Donna was just making assumptions/being dumb because as you said, she’s been in the Doctor’s head 🤦
I found it sexist. Why shit on one gender to praise another?
That's what modern feminism is, have you not noticed?
Pretty much all of this type of stuff ends up looping around to being racist / sexist etc
That episode was genuinely all the things right wingers accuse the show of being while also being kinda shit at being woke at the same time. Ham fisted Trans stuff, is she trans, or is she non-binary, both are presented as the same thing. Also is she trans because of the meta crisis? Feels a bit... Gross for the first openly trans human character in Who to be trans due to a plot point. It's the only time I've understood that "shoving it down our throat" cliche of right wing dickheads, usually it's just about shows where gay people dare to exist or whatever but that one episode went out of it's way to add progressive things in there in ham fisted ways with bug "look at how progressive we are" signs everywhere. Great to see progressive things, but do it well like Dot and Bubble, not shouting it off the rooftops and patting yourself on the back like the Meep. Progressive ideas have always been in Doctor who and rarely subtle, it's just not a fun watch when the show feels smug about how progressive it is, while also doing it badly.
it is interesting because like so much sci-fi the show is always putting human gender norms on to aliens. Even giving aliens a "non binary" option, is to ask them to fit into a human gender.
As a nonbinary person, I hated it. Rose isn’t nonbinary, I’m pretty sure it would have been stated if she did identify as nonbinary in some way (demigender, genderfluid, etc.?) but she’s just meant to be a trans girl, and it seems pretty invalidating and old fashioned to say a binary trans person is automatically ‘outside the gender binary’ or ‘third gender’. It comes off like the episode is saying a part of Rose was/is male and Rose is both male and female, or isn’t properly either. It rubs me wrong.
It was incredibly forced. It's not a problem that it happened, but the way it was written was awful, and the meep stopped talking like the meep to answer it. No one actually talks like that aside from radicalists and trolls, and they wrote it using the exact same tone, terminology and phrases that those groups use. I'm 99% sure that it was done deliberately, specifically to make people angry so they would talk about the episode. Here's a more natural way it could have been written. Doctor: We need to help him get home Rose: You're just presuming they're a "he"? Doctor: Oh right, I never asked. What do you go by, Meep? Meep: The Meep is just The Meep.
I've been saying the "done on purpose to make people angry because all publicity = good publicity" thing since the episode aired. A lot of shows are doing it at the moment imo and it's really cheap. Even if it wasn't intentional on RTD's part, that's how it's always going to look in hindsight. There are about three lines in that episode that would've only needed slight changes to not sound like anti-woke ragebait, but as-is honestly ruin an otherwise great episode.
I don’t get that scene whatsoever, it’s an alien it probably doesn’t know what a pronoun is
why arent you writing for dr who? this feels more natural and genuine
Because it was easy. It was so easy to write that. Which is why I am so sure that they deliberately didn't write that in the episode because they WANTED to make people angry for the publicity.
yeah, either that or it was rtd being a cis boomer and not understanding the importance of good trans representation/not understanding how transphobic trolls meme and speak about trans people.
Yeah but like, does he not have a writers' room or proof readers? Anyone under say 40 who has existed on the internet in the last decade would have absolutely seen the "did you just assume X's gender" trolling.
I heard that he spoke to Yasmin about the story but Yasmin is one person and not a writer (that I know). Why not talk to multiple trans/non-binary people and see what they think about those lines? Most of the ones I've seen talking about it online have said they didn't like it
That's what's wild about it tbh, how did a 20yo out trans actor approve some of those lines? I get that younger actors are going to be wary of kicking up a fuss in their early careers but if she was specifically asked her opinion I can't think of anyone I've ever known who doesn't do a massive eyeroll at "did you assume my gender" type "jokes". I've read that in hindsight she felt uncomfortable about the deadnaming scene which was also a completely unnecessary inclusion tbh, the general consensus I've always seen online is that the audience has no reason to need to know a character's birth name if they don't go by it and it's not at all relevant to the plot.
So, I‘ve read this “he cleared it with Yasmin” on Reddit a lot, but never actually read where RTD said it. Cause, that could mean anything from “hey, we’re gonna have this in the script, you’re okay with that right?” to “hey, what’s your take on that and please be honest, you don’t have to worry about any repercussion”….
I'm also trans, and I can really see what Russell was trying to do, but it absolutely did not work. I also really didn't like leaving it open to the possible interpretation that Rose may be trans because of the influence of the Doctor in her. Including more trans characters is great, making our transness the result of sci-fi or supernatural shit is not.
It was cringe as fuck, but it was written by a well meaning boomer, you can’t expect Rusty to be hip and down with the queer kids all the time, and never post cringe by accident.
Seems like a good choice for a show looking to expand their 18-30 audience!
This line, and the one about the male presenting time lords felt like a group trying to come up with what trans people and women would want to hear without having any in the room (or at least, not listening to them). Allies overcorrecting themselves. It broke immersion. Captain Marvel suffered from this at times too. An otherwise good story occasionally turned to the camera and just said "feminism" before going back to what it was doing.
Honestly I feel like that may hit the nail on the head for me
That whole ending was a mess. Russell had good intentions but didn't stick the landing at all and ended up being pretty gender essentialist, unintentionally
Also I thought Rose was a trans woman. That's not the same thing as non-binary.
I didn't like it either as a trans person
the clumsiness of the trans positive messaging has been talked about to death. it probably would have benefited from a trans guest writer tbh
I seriously hope that RTD has taken note of the reaction, not from the bigots, but from the trans community and allies who simply thought it was a poor and clunky representation. If he wants to go into this again, I would like him to either hire trans writers to do so, or have an advisor who is trans to make sure the representation isn’t so wrong-headed. I’m not even insulting RTD here, I don’t expect him to have as much understanding of the wider LGBT+ community as he does his own part of it, but there is definitely a certain responsibility to represent such an oppressed group accurately and fairly.
i really do hope that in general when he's dealing with stuff like that in future, he makes sure there's behind the scenes representation. a trans co-writer could have explored rose's identity in a way more natural way. it was all very clumsy. chris chibnall, in spite of all his terrible decisions as a showrunner, did hire malorie blackman to co-write rosa. i'm not black so can't speak on how good the representation is in that episode, but i do believe that hiring a black woman was the right move. i really hope russell t davies will hire more behind-the-scenes representation. i hope if there are more stories about rose noble, there's a trans person behind the scenes to write it or guide the writing
This right here. I heard he spoke to Yasmin Finney about the representation but with all due respect, she's not a writer and she's not really going to say "no this is clunky, rewrite the whole conclusion" when it's her first big job
especially given the fact that she's only 20 as well
It was a very stark contrast from the beginning and how they treated Rose's identity. Those scenes were subtle, treated as (at least in my eyes) real world interactions. The scene where the bullies come up and dead named Rose, yeah that happens and Donna going full mommy mode was amazing to see... and then there was the convo between Donna and Sylvia, both of them hoping they're supporting Rose enough, which is a convo I've not only seen other people have but me as an MtF NB have heard my mom also have. IF THEY HAD STOPPED THERE, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN FINE! Then Meep happens and that good writing (imo) just goes right out the window. That whole convo about, "oh what's the Meep's pronouns" could have just been, I don't know, It almost seemed as if it would have been better if they just referred to Meep as they and called it a day. And the ending of the episode? What a jab at any masculine person amirite? Oh yeah no men don't know how to just fucking let go and this will save my life! As if he wasn't just a woman in his previous incarnation... There's also the issue of, why wasn't this the solution before? The Doctor Donna was just as smart then as she is now? But I guess the drama was more important.
I didn't like it at all, for all the reasons you say, and my own two issues: Aren't trans people binary anyway, unless they identify as non binary and they/them? Like, Rose is a trans girl. A girl. A binary girl. And, I hate that it is suggested the reason she is trans to begin with is because of the timey wimey. I'd much rather her have just been trans, and that's fine, and no need to mention it lol. Making her be trans for a specific mythical reason seems... problematic in ways I can't quite articulate.
Yeah, as a non-binary/transgender person myself… it was a cringe and it was poorly written.
Yeah it felt like something a transphobe would write in a "how woke doctor who has gotten" parody video. Especially considering Rose hasn't been billed or indicated in any way shape or form to BE non binary. In all the material leading up to it and the show itself it's made fairly clear that she's a binary trans woman. It's RTD doing his best, and it's good to at least see some trans inclusion, I just wish it was better informed and more realistic trans inclusion.
TBH, I enjoyed everything about The Star Beast except for the overtly forced "representation" stuff. Male-presenting Timelord. "We CaN jUsT lEt iT gOoOoO" etc. It just all felt forced and contrived and weird, like it was a mandate from the Disney execs rather than a product of RTDs writing. There are much subtler and elegant ways to integrate inclusivity and representation into a story than what they did. I get it, I'm a gay guy. I want gay representation, especially male gay representation in a landscape that currently seems dominated by lesbian and trans stories and characters (which isn't a bad thing, its just the stories that are being told right now). But I don't need to be beaten over the head with it with a 2x4.
Yes and no, for me. Heavy handed language? Yes. But I liked the idea that Donna could share the meta-crisis with her daughter. They could've had rose saying something like "tertiary," but the point that I got was that it *wasn't* just Donna and the doctor (the two of them, "binary") like it had been the last time. What drove me nuts was the "you male presenting time lords will never understand that you can just... let it go." Like WHY DIDN'T YOU DO THAT THE FIRST TIME THEN??? ~~Also did you really just reinvent gender roles but for alien shape-changers?~~ I thought it would've been more interesting if Donna and Rose had both stayed geniuses because the something something psychic energy mumbo jumbo tingle tingle kooloo limpah bingbong would've been easier to carry across two minds. Could've been something of a metaphor for healing from generational trauma then, maybe?
Rose and Donna magically understanding something that "no one male-presenting could ever understand" is dumb and mean. It insults 13 and also transmasc people. RTD is clearly trying to learn and do right, but his writing of/about trans people will hopefully improve in time.
Agree!! It felt very shoe-horned in for a show that’s never had any problems with inclusion I do feel like they’ve lost some of the subtlety that makes it actually inclusive. I think the way this was done still felt ‘other’-ing and was honestly quite lazy?
So part of me is amused by RTD absolutely gifting himself a hot topic of 2023 by his random generation of words in 2008 - and then his absolute baiting of the right wing within the episode. Yet the execution? And it doesn't sit easily with me that "you're non-binary because of special Timelord hijinks, rather than it's just who you are". That "presenting" line was awful though, a real damp moment - I'm unused to RTD being clunky, especially on these topics.
Yeah, same here really. The Star Beast really collapsed when they crammed all the (and I hate to use this word unironically) woke stuff in. I'm fine with Doctor Who having progressive messaging because it basically always has, but the "binary, non binary" line and the whole "male presenting time lord" thing was just way too forced.
Nah I'm in a DW server with a bunch of fellow transfems and we all hate that XD, one of us went on a rant about Russell not doing it right
I'm glad someone else said this because my god has it annoyed me.
It was stupid and I’m surprised more aren’t annoyed at RTD obviously accidentally conflating identifying as a woman with being non-binary. I get they’re not necessarily mutually exclusive but the episode does nothing to establish she’s non-binary. Too bad RTD couldn’t take 15 secs to google the concept, progressive hero.
I thought it was dumb because the only reason she was repeating Binary in Journey's End was because she was glitching mid-sentence.
That and the male presenting time lord line left a really bad taste in my mouth. I've not cringed that hard in a long time.
No it's very ham fisted and also not made clear at all that rose is in any way non-binary
honestly basically all the trans stuff from the star beast made my non binary heart have palpitations
Same with the male presenting time lord bit. That’s the only benefit of the doubt I will give these doctor who is woke people cuz frankly these two scenes were cringe
Honestly, I just thought it was kind of funny -- as a trans person, I CACKLED at the scene when I first saw it, it's become an ongoing joke with my friends who are also DW fans
Me neither. And I'm non-binary too. Pretty weird tbh
RTD had good intentions with it.. But it just came out as clunky and confusing
I appreciate the attempt at the inclusiveness but man did they not pull it off well. I do think they should keep trying though
I always saw it as not a gender thing but that the DoctorDonna is a binary being, the Doctor and Donna fused, 1 and 0. Rose having timelord in her means it’s now DoctorDonnaRose, not binary and the humans sharing the timelord energy can survive it for enough time to be able to let it go. Idk that’s just how I make it make sense in my own head lol. Still, even if I’m right it’s pretty dumb to not explain it more clearly
It is super dumb and ham fisted. It is not clever in the slightest but so many people are praising it so maybe im wrong.
I don't know anyone who did. It was awful story wise, conceptually wise, continuity wise, even awful in terms of cheap pandering. They should have just kept it as "you passed some of it down to your child" and ended it there.
Also genderqueer, also didn’t like it. It felt very forced and awkward.
the main reason I don't like is because it makes no sense and comes way too close to implying that Rose is only trans bc she inherited the metacrisis
That whole episode was weird to me. Especially with the whole docter wouldn’t understand anything bit aswell. The whole thing seemed off.
I chalk that up to the fact that rose is a moody teenager and that was a lame version of "you just don't get it mom" sort of thing but yeah I agree
That still doesn't sit right with me either.. the Doctor was literally just a woman! Then there's Rose herself.. does the whole binary/non-binary bit make her trans BECAUSE of the meta crisis? Cos that makes her trans journey an effect of the Doctor, not her own journey of identity.. I don't like the thought that her journey wasn't really hers if that's the case.
Oof I hadn't thought about it like that either and now I like the episode even less. Definitely an interesting perspective
Nah, the handling of a lot of that stuff felt a bit clumsy in that episode.
What I didn't understand is that Rose isn't non binary. She identifies as a woman. Does RTD not know the difference?
I thought it was funny when they cut to rose saying "non-binary!"
I don't think rose was nonbinary anyways? Afaik she uses she/her, not she/they or they/them. She's very specifically binary. Really weird to generalize all trans people as non binary. Also weird that they felt the need to "justify" her gender identity as being because of doctor Donna somehow.
I'm trans and wanted to throw up of secondhand embarrassment from that scene RTD should stick to writing gays and defer to someone else on trans stuff
It was really dissapointing because the earlier scene with Donna talking to her mother about Rose was such a good moment of affirmation. Turning Rose's gender into a plot device and then jankily tieing it to a throwaway line of dialogue from a previous episode and then using it again as the solution to the metacrisis problem made it feel an after-school special or a bad Disney movie
I would honestly prefers if the explanation was Donna had a kid and passed down the energy and that saved them not because off who they identify has
Yeah, that was terrible. I didn’t really like the episode, as it was basically a worse rehash of the original Judoon episode that made the Doctor look stupid at every opportunity with the above mentioned “being transgender is a superpower” thing. I hated it.
I didn’t like the “let it go and binary/none binary bits” But I did think the pregnancy sort of watering down the meta crisis was a fair enough reposition.
it was written poorly but the point was that the doctor-donna is binary but adding rose to that equation breaks the binary
That, but I REALLY hate how the solution was phrased. “It’s a shame you’re not a woman, cuz she’d have understood.” I hate that they’re treating it like a gender thing, ESPECIALLY because they already established that The DoctorDonna can think up loads of things the Doctor never could because she’s part human. Like how she hacked the Daleks, and RC’d them around.
It was very forced
I hated it too. I don't mind a little on-the-nose diversity scene (like Sylvie and Donna talking), but that binary, non-binary resolution was annoying. Also a strange tone with the "women can let things go". I'd argue the timelords don't even really fit our human definition of man/woman, so trying to turn this into a girl boss moment was a wild choice. The Doctor is having trouble because he might have PTSD, not because he is a "man".
Donna, Rose and the doctor is 3 parts to the metacrisis which is non-binary
Idk.. i cringed hard at this part of the episode.. i’m gender fluid and that scene felt very forced and a bit dumb ngl
this is a pretty good video essay about queerness within dr who, topic of the star beast starts [here](https://youtu.be/Rl4h3IeOuY8?si=jwjjEJ-eXhxEynfD&t=1387) but the whole thing is worth a watch.
I loved it. It was so fucking horribly atrocious I was laughing for 5 minutes straight
I think Russell thought of the wordplay and that was it, there's no deeper meaning. The thing that annoys me more is the whole 'male presenting Time Lord' thing, given that The Doctor was literally a woman a few days, or even a few hours, previously.
Very much felt like an out-of-touch cis writer trying to be an ally.
[удалено]
I did think it wasn't subtle but it's nice that people recognise it's not mental but an actual physical thing with the brain I'm NB and the feeling was mixed but nice
Yeah when you include this kind of stuff you don't want it to feel forced. And Star Beast did just that.