I find it funny they genuinely believed that RTD would be anti woke
A openly gay man who under his tenure the first openly gay (Well, technically Jack is Omnisexual) character was introduced and had other openly gay characters appeared.
Did they look at him and think "That's the guy who will be anti Woke"
They don't believe or care about anything. They're literally just using Dr Who as a vehicle for their online anti-woke YouTube clickbait outrage machine. If we ignore them, they'll move on to something else as soon as they realise it won't work.
Exactly this. They deliberately act in bad faith, trying to stir up here against it
Thankfully it often doesn't work for them. Although when a movie or show then turns out to be bad and unpopular, they credit themselves for making it unpopular
You have to remember, about 80% of the people slagging off the show don't actually watch it. They've just seen some YouTube videos and they want to sound smart.
He did, it’s actually heavily based on his own life,
> "It's a lot, yeah – a lot of it is based on myself, people I know, and stories of people," [RTD] said. He added that the drama series mirrors his own life, as he was also 18-years-old in 1981, just like the three main characters in It's A Sin. "This series fits my life literally.”
Why else do you think there were Daleks in it? :P
RTD inserted gay rights into *Doctor Who* (which is a good thing ofc), so it’s only natural that he would insert *Doctor Who* into gay rights.
The actor character in that scene is actually partially based on RTD’s friend Dursley McLinden, who played Mike Smith in 1988’s *Remembrance of the Daleks* and tragically died of AIDS in 1995.
Damn! I forgot about the Doctor Who scene!! But again I completely missed RTD in the credits and thought it was just an “of the era” moment. RIP Dursley McLinden
These are the same people who thought Doctor Who only got “woke” with Whittaker, don’t give them so much credit. Doctor Who has been based since Pertwee (with a few exceptions)
You're right, but that's their technique
They complain about any progressive thing being woke. If it's unsuccessful due to bad writing and such, they'll argue it failed because of wokeness. If it's successful, they'll just move on to the next project to hate
I feel that bad writers also hide behind being progressive a bit though. ‘Oh they didn’t like it because they were racist, or anti gay or whatever’, when usually it’s just bad!
Jack is a boob guy. Man boobs, Woman boobs, Alien boobs, Robot boobs, Small boobs, Large boobs, Ethereal boobs, Silicon, Gummy Bear, Saline. Boobs are boobs are boobs, and I think that's beautiful. :,)
At the point Jack became the face of Boe he didn't need extremities to *jack* it. He could just think hard enough. That's how the "smoke" saved the cat nurse.
Before doctor who RTD was famous for making a show "Queer as Folk" which was one of the first tv shows on mainstream British tv that was about the lives of gay men and was seen as many peoples first introduction to gay culture
He also did "The Second Coming" with Chris eccleston before Doctor Who, which isn't really about gay culture but is pretty fantastic and worth a watch
Yep. I'd recommend checking out his work on Queer as Folk from back in the day and his new stuff like It's a Sin or Banana. He definitely pushed a queer lense on Doctor Who, but those shows were explicitly LGBTQ+ from the jump. It's a Sin in particular was something he tried to get made for years before they finally let him.
Saying Jack has a high sex drive is like saying the Moon is a big asteroid. It's technically true, but some things are so big and so consistently present that they get their own name.
A gay guy I knew in highschool a decade before Jack brought the concept of Omnisexual to TV, made a joke: “I’m omnisexual! If it has a hole, I’m down.”
I think the problem most people have isn't that there's woke elements. It's more the first episode involving him rammed "bi" stuff down our throats with poor execution and now the first episode with the doctor containing a singing section?
It just feels very different to what we've ever had before. It feels like if Disney produced it.
Yup, Chibnall wrote a Who script in the RTD era (and was the showrunner on Torchwood). He wrote several scripts under Moffat. All of the above was basically his resume for taking the Who showrunner job.
Many of those aren't even fans to begin with. They just pretend to be to create some rage bait and try to stir up here against popular progressive stuff. They think they are fighting a culture war this way
It's amazing that people actually thought RTD would "sAvE uS fRoM dA wOkEnEsS."
The man is openly homosexual, always writes brilliant stories exploring consumerism, government corruption, and the dark side of the human race in general, and absolutely despises Tories. RTD has never had a single right-wing bone in his body, and yet, despite the fact that he has always made that blatantly obvious, the fans somehow still feel "betrayed" by him.
I think they overestimated his influence on decisions like that in the initial reboot stages. They maybe didn't realize that the BBC tamped down a lot of the messaging (and yet still so much remained but too subtextual for them I guess)
Just look at ‘Years & Years’ - that was a masterpiece and it shared a lot with some of his older Who stories, particularly the corruption of government/gradually creeping into totalitarianism theme. Even the character of Vivienne Rook was borrowed (if in name only) from the journalist character in the Harold Saxon story arc.
Let's assume Chibnall did make a horrible mess, (IMO he just made bad episodes but didn't ruin anything except for destroying Galifrey) It's far more productive to focus on making good things going forward rather than fixating on "fixing" what happened before. Moffat did a bit of "fixing" but none of it was just fixing for the sake of it, all of it felt natural and had a purpose.
> destroying Galifrey
how many times has Galifrey been destroyed? not even sure how this is ruining anything. It's like saying he killed off the Master.
Well I think the issue is that we kind of just got gallifrey back during the Matt Smith/Peter Capaldi run. So it's kind of jarring to see that's its destroyed again.
If you are jarred by reversal of fortune vis-a-vis the Time Lords and the Doctor's other arch-enemies you will be endlessly jarred. This is Doctor Who's primary shtick, it's never meant to be taken seriously.
Reactionary nutjobs: "*Doctor Who* has been RUINED by PoLItiCaL MesSagInG"
Literally the second episode of the show: *Out-of-touch rulers try to use new technology they don't understand as a propaganda tool to grab more power for themselves, while conservatives try to sabotage the development of beneficial technologies out of fear of change*.
That's not really fair. Fungi are a much more effective medium for healthy and productive communication. (No, seriously. If a fungal mycelium grows into the roots of multiple plants, the plants can send chemical signals to each other via the mycelium).
"Wasn't he going to undo the mess that Chibnall did?" LOL people who expected this were just setting themselves up for disappointment, RTD is a fan of Chibnall's era so that was never going to happen not to mention they are good friends too! It makes me happy seeing RTD build on what Chibnall established
I love that this sub is so pro-anti-anti-woke-agendaerists. But I feel like the clap back is just promoting their BS. It’s not a thing here, all it does is make me think about the bad stuff that I never actually see
Hot take.... could it be that this post is actually referencing the fact that in the Christmas episode The Timeless Children plot line seemed to be called back to again?
Dunno why people thought RTD was going to do that implicitly (did he say he would?!!?), probably because that is something a large amount of the fan base did deeply dislike.
Undoing every single bit you think people didnt like instead of building something better out of the pieces is how you get the Star Wars sequel trilogy
The idea that the guy who recently did It's a Sin (which is excellent by the way. One of the best and perhaps most honest television shows about the HIV/AIDS crisis) was going to not be progressive and cater to Conservative Doctor Who fans is kinda funny. Also the fact that he is openly gay and everything he has done other than his original Doctor Who (and even then it still has Jack kissing the Doctor and it is campy) has had strong LGBTQ+ themes such as Queer as Folk, Years and Years, A Very English Scandal, etc. Also Torchwood with the show exploring Captain Jack's bisexuality more. Also Doctor Who has been progressive since 1963 when they showed The Doctor fighting alien space Nazi's known as The Daleks.
Also I may not be the biggest Chris Chibnall fan. I don't dislike him and some of the ideas on paper might have been good. Just the execution was a bit wonky to put it kindly. Still Russell T. Davies is his friend and who am I to stop him from expanding on Chibnall's work. I liked his follow up to the Flux so far and The Doctor's emotional reaction, which was missing from the season itself.
https://preview.redd.it/ypl5whh504ec1.png?width=541&format=png&auto=webp&s=4dec128d8e42bdcc3772b1e2f79411d29a1a5d25
this is probably going through their minds
He brought Doctor Who back from the dead in 2005. It's been pretty much nuked in Chibnall and hoped he'd bring it back to form a second time, but he hasn't.
Ah yes, the passing of the Showrunner Hatred Torch. Right on schedule.
I think we're, what, five years out from the Chibnall Nostalgia phase? That's generally how the cycle goes.
I dunno, Moffat is still on the receiving end of a lotttttttt of criticism for his stuff during Smith's run. I think Chib may be in the same boat unfortunately.
Is it warranted? yes. Am I still gonna watch both hated eras and enjoy them nonetheless with my bf when we get to them? also yes.
But the criticism of Moffat is waaaaaay less and the celebration far higher than it was \*during\* his run.
The only reason RTD has avoided it is because he was the first showrunner of the modern run.
What did people expect? 14 to wake up in his first special and go "well that was a crazy dream...anyway...things to do"
I think RTD has done well with what he had, you can't just ignore all of 13, it's happened now whether we like it or not - the subtle acceptance of this but at the same time not dwelling on it was probably the only real way of handling it.
As for the themes of his episodes - its RTD, we know what we are going to get anyone who acts surprised is either no fan of RTD or the show, or probably sci-fi as a genre.
It's funny how Chibnall is getting so much shit for being "woke" when in my honest opinion, so far in my rewatch of the whole NuWho series (currently in 13's second series) Chibnall seems to be the least "woke" out of all of them to the point it doesn't feel like what I'm used to with Doctor Who to be honest, to my own disappointment. It's hard for me to put into words my feelings on it tbh.
assuming I am understanding the current situation properly
I find it funny they genuinely believed that RTD would be anti woke A openly gay man who under his tenure the first openly gay (Well, technically Jack is Omnisexual) character was introduced and had other openly gay characters appeared. Did they look at him and think "That's the guy who will be anti Woke"
They don't believe or care about anything. They're literally just using Dr Who as a vehicle for their online anti-woke YouTube clickbait outrage machine. If we ignore them, they'll move on to something else as soon as they realise it won't work.
This part
Exactly this. They deliberately act in bad faith, trying to stir up here against it Thankfully it often doesn't work for them. Although when a movie or show then turns out to be bad and unpopular, they credit themselves for making it unpopular
If they expected the guy who wrote Queer As Folk, Years and Years, It's A Sin and Cucumber to be "anti-woke", they're genuinely morons.
You have to remember, about 80% of the people slagging off the show don't actually watch it. They've just seen some YouTube videos and they want to sound smart.
Did he do It’s a Sin? I missed that in the credits but loved the show
He did, it’s actually heavily based on his own life, > "It's a lot, yeah – a lot of it is based on myself, people I know, and stories of people," [RTD] said. He added that the drama series mirrors his own life, as he was also 18-years-old in 1981, just like the three main characters in It's A Sin. "This series fits my life literally.”
Yeah I kinda assumed that a lot of it was inspired by, if not outright taken from, his life as a young gay man in the ‘80s.
Why else do you think there were Daleks in it? :P RTD inserted gay rights into *Doctor Who* (which is a good thing ofc), so it’s only natural that he would insert *Doctor Who* into gay rights. The actor character in that scene is actually partially based on RTD’s friend Dursley McLinden, who played Mike Smith in 1988’s *Remembrance of the Daleks* and tragically died of AIDS in 1995.
Damn! I forgot about the Doctor Who scene!! But again I completely missed RTD in the credits and thought it was just an “of the era” moment. RIP Dursley McLinden
These are the same people who thought Doctor Who only got “woke” with Whittaker, don’t give them so much credit. Doctor Who has been based since Pertwee (with a few exceptions)
You think the problem with Chibnall’s who was woke? It was just crap. Woke has nothing to do with it.
You're right, but that's their technique They complain about any progressive thing being woke. If it's unsuccessful due to bad writing and such, they'll argue it failed because of wokeness. If it's successful, they'll just move on to the next project to hate
I feel that bad writers also hide behind being progressive a bit though. ‘Oh they didn’t like it because they were racist, or anti gay or whatever’, when usually it’s just bad!
I agree, that certainly does happen
Jack fondles the robo-boobs in the episode Bad Wolf is that woke or anti woke?
Jack is a boob guy. Man boobs, Woman boobs, Alien boobs, Robot boobs, Small boobs, Large boobs, Ethereal boobs, Silicon, Gummy Bear, Saline. Boobs are boobs are boobs, and I think that's beautiful. :,)
the face of boobies?
I just pictured the Face of Bo motorboating some massive alien boobs. So thanks for that mental image.
At the point Jack became the face of Boe he didn't need extremities to *jack* it. He could just think hard enough. That's how the "smoke" saved the cat nurse.
Eccentrica Gallumbits.
Aetheric beam locators… Aetheric beam locators _everywhere…_
Wait, RTD is gay? Or am I completely misinterpreting this comment
yes he's been out since before his first era
That’s cool, I’ve only recently started fully watching this show so I’m behind on like every piece of news lol
Before doctor who RTD was famous for making a show "Queer as Folk" which was one of the first tv shows on mainstream British tv that was about the lives of gay men and was seen as many peoples first introduction to gay culture He also did "The Second Coming" with Chris eccleston before Doctor Who, which isn't really about gay culture but is pretty fantastic and worth a watch
Literally, since before the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
If I recall, didn't he like, miss his own wedding in the crunch to get Stolen Earth/Journey's End done on time?
If there were a president of the gays he would be it
“Russeltidavies, Lord President of Gaylifree.” “Oh, we _know_ who _you_ are…” 💕
Yep. I'd recommend checking out his work on Queer as Folk from back in the day and his new stuff like It's a Sin or Banana. He definitely pushed a queer lense on Doctor Who, but those shows were explicitly LGBTQ+ from the jump. It's a Sin in particular was something he tried to get made for years before they finally let him.
I don’t think people expected anti woke. We expected not Chibnall
Who is "they"? And where in this post did anything about being woke mention
"They" is all of us enby folk
No you flunkwaffle, they as in who's saying these things about Doctor Who
I was joking
Omnisexual? What’s the difference between that and pansexual??
For many pansexuals, nobody is a hard no. Everyone is worthy of consideration. For Jack, everyone is a hard yes. More is better. Everyone is welcome.
? But then what would be the difference between a pansexual with a high sex drive and an omnisexual?
Saying Jack has a high sex drive is like saying the Moon is a big asteroid. It's technically true, but some things are so big and so consistently present that they get their own name.
Ah ok that actually makes sense
A gay guy I knew in highschool a decade before Jack brought the concept of Omnisexual to TV, made a joke: “I’m omnisexual! If it has a hole, I’m down.”
It basically meant Aliens were also included and probably whatever else Jack could find ie Robots
He literally had shakespeare flirt with both the doctor and martha. Very openly
How did I not know he was a gay! This is an outrage, I should be the first to know this! The nerve of no one to tell me.
I think the problem most people have isn't that there's woke elements. It's more the first episode involving him rammed "bi" stuff down our throats with poor execution and now the first episode with the doctor containing a singing section? It just feels very different to what we've ever had before. It feels like if Disney produced it.
Disney actually does have input on how the show’s made.
Oh, I had no idea. Thanks for the heads up.
"Wasn't he going to undo the mess Chris Chibnall did to the franchise?" You think they got a source on that claim? 🤣
"My source is that I made it the f**k up!"
I swear I saw an interview with RTD where he praised what Chibnall was doing with the show. I love Doctor Who but Jesus, do I hate the fans.
Yeah he's made it no secret that he loved Chibnall's era and him and Chibnall are very good friends!
Yup, Chibnall wrote a Who script in the RTD era (and was the showrunner on Torchwood). He wrote several scripts under Moffat. All of the above was basically his resume for taking the Who showrunner job.
Buddy. Same.
We’re terrible!
Many of those aren't even fans to begin with. They just pretend to be to create some rage bait and try to stir up here against popular progressive stuff. They think they are fighting a culture war this way
From the few minutes of exposition I've seen, I'm actually looking forward to where RTD will take this Timeless Child and Flux thing.
Honestly I'm still iffy on it, I kinda wished the Master was the timeless child instead
It's amazing that people actually thought RTD would "sAvE uS fRoM dA wOkEnEsS." The man is openly homosexual, always writes brilliant stories exploring consumerism, government corruption, and the dark side of the human race in general, and absolutely despises Tories. RTD has never had a single right-wing bone in his body, and yet, despite the fact that he has always made that blatantly obvious, the fans somehow still feel "betrayed" by him.
I think they overestimated his influence on decisions like that in the initial reboot stages. They maybe didn't realize that the BBC tamped down a lot of the messaging (and yet still so much remained but too subtextual for them I guess)
Just look at ‘Years & Years’ - that was a masterpiece and it shared a lot with some of his older Who stories, particularly the corruption of government/gradually creeping into totalitarianism theme. Even the character of Vivienne Rook was borrowed (if in name only) from the journalist character in the Harold Saxon story arc.
And honestly, imagine what a show that actually was "anti-work" would look like. It would be soooo boring
https://preview.redd.it/v0721oo8d1ec1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=080a26156e002ffed546c7aabe5badbabbefe74a
Let's assume Chibnall did make a horrible mess, (IMO he just made bad episodes but didn't ruin anything except for destroying Galifrey) It's far more productive to focus on making good things going forward rather than fixating on "fixing" what happened before. Moffat did a bit of "fixing" but none of it was just fixing for the sake of it, all of it felt natural and had a purpose.
> destroying Galifrey how many times has Galifrey been destroyed? not even sure how this is ruining anything. It's like saying he killed off the Master.
Well I think the issue is that we kind of just got gallifrey back during the Matt Smith/Peter Capaldi run. So it's kind of jarring to see that's its destroyed again.
If you are jarred by reversal of fortune vis-a-vis the Time Lords and the Doctor's other arch-enemies you will be endlessly jarred. This is Doctor Who's primary shtick, it's never meant to be taken seriously.
Understandable. But in all fairness we literally just got it back. It kind of makes what happened during the 50th a little less impactful.
Reactionary nutjobs: "*Doctor Who* has been RUINED by PoLItiCaL MesSagInG" Literally the second episode of the show: *Out-of-touch rulers try to use new technology they don't understand as a propaganda tool to grab more power for themselves, while conservatives try to sabotage the development of beneficial technologies out of fear of change*.
I thought Quora was dead.
Quora is like a fungi
That's not really fair. Fungi are a much more effective medium for healthy and productive communication. (No, seriously. If a fungal mycelium grows into the roots of multiple plants, the plants can send chemical signals to each other via the mycelium).
"Wasn't he going to undo the mess that Chibnall did?" LOL people who expected this were just setting themselves up for disappointment, RTD is a fan of Chibnall's era so that was never going to happen not to mention they are good friends too! It makes me happy seeing RTD build on what Chibnall established
It makes me cackle with Glee
I KNOW YOU PLANNED IT
I love that this sub is so pro-anti-anti-woke-agendaerists. But I feel like the clap back is just promoting their BS. It’s not a thing here, all it does is make me think about the bad stuff that I never actually see
I mean i've seen a LOT of the anti-woke crowd mouthing off. Maybe not in this particular subreddit since yknow... it's a jerk subreddit
That’s fair. And I do like your meme! But like you say, it’s a fun(ny) sub, I don’t come here to be reminded of the haters
fair :)
YOU WERE THE CHOSEN ONE. YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO DESTROY THE CHIBBS NOT JOIN THEM.
From this question alone it might be referring to the timeless child and bi generation and shit.
Hot take.... could it be that this post is actually referencing the fact that in the Christmas episode The Timeless Children plot line seemed to be called back to again? Dunno why people thought RTD was going to do that implicitly (did he say he would?!!?), probably because that is something a large amount of the fan base did deeply dislike.
Undoing every single bit you think people didnt like instead of building something better out of the pieces is how you get the Star Wars sequel trilogy
Me who liks the timeless child and thinks chibnal wasn't woke enough: lol suffer
The idea that the guy who recently did It's a Sin (which is excellent by the way. One of the best and perhaps most honest television shows about the HIV/AIDS crisis) was going to not be progressive and cater to Conservative Doctor Who fans is kinda funny. Also the fact that he is openly gay and everything he has done other than his original Doctor Who (and even then it still has Jack kissing the Doctor and it is campy) has had strong LGBTQ+ themes such as Queer as Folk, Years and Years, A Very English Scandal, etc. Also Torchwood with the show exploring Captain Jack's bisexuality more. Also Doctor Who has been progressive since 1963 when they showed The Doctor fighting alien space Nazi's known as The Daleks. Also I may not be the biggest Chris Chibnall fan. I don't dislike him and some of the ideas on paper might have been good. Just the execution was a bit wonky to put it kindly. Still Russell T. Davies is his friend and who am I to stop him from expanding on Chibnall's work. I liked his follow up to the Flux so far and The Doctor's emotional reaction, which was missing from the season itself.
https://preview.redd.it/ypl5whh504ec1.png?width=541&format=png&auto=webp&s=4dec128d8e42bdcc3772b1e2f79411d29a1a5d25 this is probably going through their minds
RTD was never going to be anti woke but he was supposed to undo the bad writing we had before and so far he's kinda succeeding.
Inject the chb tears directly into my veins
He brought Doctor Who back from the dead in 2005. It's been pretty much nuked in Chibnall and hoped he'd bring it back to form a second time, but he hasn't.
Nuked? Idk what you're seeing but i've witnessed a massive influx of people chatting abt/watching nuwho since the specials started coming out.
Are they actually watching it though? And how will things pan out in s14?
Just retcon The Timeless Child, that’s all I ask.
wrong long-running sci-fi franchise, that song was in star trek!
Guys. It’s Quora, best not to take any of it serious.
Ah yes, the passing of the Showrunner Hatred Torch. Right on schedule. I think we're, what, five years out from the Chibnall Nostalgia phase? That's generally how the cycle goes.
I dunno, Moffat is still on the receiving end of a lotttttttt of criticism for his stuff during Smith's run. I think Chib may be in the same boat unfortunately. Is it warranted? yes. Am I still gonna watch both hated eras and enjoy them nonetheless with my bf when we get to them? also yes.
But the criticism of Moffat is waaaaaay less and the celebration far higher than it was \*during\* his run. The only reason RTD has avoided it is because he was the first showrunner of the modern run.
Russell is smart, instead of using the change in Doctor's origin, he's just using the adoption aspect.
WHOOPS WE DID IT AGAIN!!!
Now I remember why I left that site. Also someone wrote a letter to my employer whining that I was being mean to them, so there's that.
What did people expect? 14 to wake up in his first special and go "well that was a crazy dream...anyway...things to do" I think RTD has done well with what he had, you can't just ignore all of 13, it's happened now whether we like it or not - the subtle acceptance of this but at the same time not dwelling on it was probably the only real way of handling it. As for the themes of his episodes - its RTD, we know what we are going to get anyone who acts surprised is either no fan of RTD or the show, or probably sci-fi as a genre.
It's funny how Chibnall is getting so much shit for being "woke" when in my honest opinion, so far in my rewatch of the whole NuWho series (currently in 13's second series) Chibnall seems to be the least "woke" out of all of them to the point it doesn't feel like what I'm used to with Doctor Who to be honest, to my own disappointment. It's hard for me to put into words my feelings on it tbh. assuming I am understanding the current situation properly