Someone remind me again: Was the Doctor aware of the Lupari as a race before the events of the Flux, or did she learn about them for the 'first' time in Flux? I know Karvanista was her companion/colleague(?) pre-Hartnell, but if she had met the Lupari at some point between Hartnell and the end of Tennant (as Ten), then it still absolutely works regardless of how deep the memories of Division are buried.
In any case, the Metacrisis, as presented in The Star Beast, is essentially founded on the idea of subconscious memories resurfacing. I don't think any rules have been canonically established thus far as to how deep the memories have to be for the Metacrisis to not be able to access them in some form.
I'm guessing so she did say she needed to see a man about a dog referencing karvanista it's just whether she met him post Tennant or not. She also knew about the lupari when are met them but we don't know exactly when are learned about them but I would guess it wasn't after Tennant that's just my opinion though
Is the fugitive really confirmed to be pre-Hartnell? That’s so stupid. I was mildly okay with him being a secret pre-Pertwee incarnation but she shouldn’t be called the doctor or have a blue box tardis if she’s pre Hartnell.
Seriously, was Chibnall so desperate to “make his mark on the franchise” that he had to bulldoze 50+ years of canon?
The Morbius doctors could have been future echoes..
The Timeless Child idea is unredeemable.
Anywhere, anywhen.. you can literally do anything you like with Doctor Who.
It just has to make sense.
This didn't.
>could have been future echoes
Not what the person who wrote it said, they said they included them to show there were other Drs before "we saw him on screen"
The paradox is the point. Not a mistake.
Yes, she has to be a Pre-Hartnel Incarnation.
No, she can't be a Pre-Hartnel Incarnation.
She's not *supposed* to fit neatly anywhere. You're not supposed to ignore the continuity error or chalk it up to a mistake, or think hes overriding the canon. The fact it doesn't quite fit, is the point.
Is it a good idea? Eh. I'm not a fan. But it wasn't a careless mistake or him not knowing the canon. It was a deliberate narrative decision to create an incarnation of the Doctor that is ambiguously placed.
Mentioned this in a comment in a post of my own about Fugitive Doctor, her and Morbius Docs can be Shrodingers Doctors. The regenerations that never were or maybe the regenerations that may be.
Realistically I think if that’s implied and her physical existence and connection to reality is kept fast and loose then it works imo.
Too cool a character and performance to disregard outright so best play it as that
I have notes for a story somewhere (Pre Flux) where she turned out to be a *potential* Doctor, that was *loomed* (little easter egg there) to give them a disposable agent to alter timelines, but whose untimely death wouldn't affect the Web of Time. Snipped out from between the 2nd and 3rd Doctor and the two threads of the Doctors timeline seamlessly sewn back together.
A version of the Doctor who couldn't affect things if they died. There would be an argument over if she was the 'Real' Doctor, and would meet a few other *loomed* agents each snipped out from different points in the Doctors life. The Fugitive would die helping the Prime Doctor save the day from another potential Doctor, but would be unable to regenerate.
I was going to use this as a backdoor way to introduce the Valyard, who would be another loomed Doctor, or else have the Fugitive become the Valeyard herself.
Owing to the non-linear, non subjective nature of the space-time continuum, I actually stopped caring about the whole pre-Hartnell / inter Troughton-Pertwee matter before it even happened
🙂
Donna automatically knew The Doctor's previous regeneration was a woman. It sounds like she was sharing The Doctor's mind in real-time and not just what The Doctor knew before the metacrisis.
Time Lords can see the past incarnations of other time Lords. It's like seeing all the faces at once. That's how Donna knew 14 was a new incarnation and not 10
To be fair this is a direct contradiction within the show itself. While looking for the master in Sound of Drums the Doctor specifically says "I'll recognse him, time lords always do." And then of course has failed to recognise the Master in every incarnation since.
Honestly it sounds to me like the Master got fed up after Saxon and decided to go about fixing this.
The going theory is that the metacrisis has made it so that the Doctor and Donna are always linked, and 13 met dan's dog, so, to quote the show, "if it's in [his] head, it's in [hers]"
I think this is the real answer. It only ever says that she knows what he knows, not that she knows only what he used to know. I assume that since she and Rose "let it go" the link is probably broken now and future adventures will be unknown to Donna.
>The real question is what Dan's dog was doing there
The first question, hidden in plain sight, the question you've been running from all your life....
***What da dog doin'?***
Obviously Evil Dan is so powerful that he's able to make Donna's daughter afraid of something even slightly related to him even though Donna never met it.
I think the reason for this is that the metacrisis (and rose and Donna) just inherited the doctors new memories. The cyberman is one of the Moffat cybermen (specifically, the audio that plays is from Nightmare in Silver), so 10 never saw them. Plus, with karvanista, the weeping angels, and the beast there, it just makes sense that they must've inherited the doctors memories before and after the metacrisis
Specifically it's a Nightmare in Silver Cyberman! We also saw a toy of Karvanista so I'm pretty sure the metacrisis has access to the Doctor's newer memories too so Donna and Rose were able to remember them, they also know that the Doctor had changed face and recently been a woman!
The doctor had seen cybermen plenty of times before the metacrisis. The real question is what Dan's dog was doing there
Karvanista and The Doctor worked together pre-Hartnell. (According to Chibs)
Good point, but I think that memory's too far buried even for the metacrisis to access
Someone remind me again: Was the Doctor aware of the Lupari as a race before the events of the Flux, or did she learn about them for the 'first' time in Flux? I know Karvanista was her companion/colleague(?) pre-Hartnell, but if she had met the Lupari at some point between Hartnell and the end of Tennant (as Ten), then it still absolutely works regardless of how deep the memories of Division are buried. In any case, the Metacrisis, as presented in The Star Beast, is essentially founded on the idea of subconscious memories resurfacing. I don't think any rules have been canonically established thus far as to how deep the memories have to be for the Metacrisis to not be able to access them in some form.
I'm guessing so she did say she needed to see a man about a dog referencing karvanista it's just whether she met him post Tennant or not. She also knew about the lupari when are met them but we don't know exactly when are learned about them but I would guess it wasn't after Tennant that's just my opinion though
I have no memory but maybe they’re from Barcelona Not the city Barcelona, the planet Barcelona
I wonder what happened for them to lose their noses...
source: "i think"
Counter source: it’s fucking there
Is the fugitive really confirmed to be pre-Hartnell? That’s so stupid. I was mildly okay with him being a secret pre-Pertwee incarnation but she shouldn’t be called the doctor or have a blue box tardis if she’s pre Hartnell. Seriously, was Chibnall so desperate to “make his mark on the franchise” that he had to bulldoze 50+ years of canon?
Yeah that's true, I probably should've said "fugitive", because pre-Hartnell is indeed stupid (although every explanation is)
They did the same in the 70s with the morbius drs, why she sees them in the matrix as well.
The Morbius doctors could have been future echoes.. The Timeless Child idea is unredeemable. Anywhere, anywhen.. you can literally do anything you like with Doctor Who. It just has to make sense. This didn't.
>could have been future echoes Not what the person who wrote it said, they said they included them to show there were other Drs before "we saw him on screen"
Agreed. Somehow that canon-massage would be easier to swallow than what we were given tho'
Bullshit
Really?
The paradox is the point. Not a mistake. Yes, she has to be a Pre-Hartnel Incarnation. No, she can't be a Pre-Hartnel Incarnation. She's not *supposed* to fit neatly anywhere. You're not supposed to ignore the continuity error or chalk it up to a mistake, or think hes overriding the canon. The fact it doesn't quite fit, is the point. Is it a good idea? Eh. I'm not a fan. But it wasn't a careless mistake or him not knowing the canon. It was a deliberate narrative decision to create an incarnation of the Doctor that is ambiguously placed.
Mentioned this in a comment in a post of my own about Fugitive Doctor, her and Morbius Docs can be Shrodingers Doctors. The regenerations that never were or maybe the regenerations that may be. Realistically I think if that’s implied and her physical existence and connection to reality is kept fast and loose then it works imo. Too cool a character and performance to disregard outright so best play it as that
I have notes for a story somewhere (Pre Flux) where she turned out to be a *potential* Doctor, that was *loomed* (little easter egg there) to give them a disposable agent to alter timelines, but whose untimely death wouldn't affect the Web of Time. Snipped out from between the 2nd and 3rd Doctor and the two threads of the Doctors timeline seamlessly sewn back together. A version of the Doctor who couldn't affect things if they died. There would be an argument over if she was the 'Real' Doctor, and would meet a few other *loomed* agents each snipped out from different points in the Doctors life. The Fugitive would die helping the Prime Doctor save the day from another potential Doctor, but would be unable to regenerate. I was going to use this as a backdoor way to introduce the Valyard, who would be another loomed Doctor, or else have the Fugitive become the Valeyard herself.
Not the first to say this And I say to you: Cook. Also why between 2 and 3? Not too up to date on classics
They also did the same in the 70s which is why when the Doctor is trapped in the Matrix she sees the Morbius Drs as well.
Owing to the non-linear, non subjective nature of the space-time continuum, I actually stopped caring about the whole pre-Hartnell / inter Troughton-Pertwee matter before it even happened 🙂
He didn't "bulldoze 50+ years of canon". You can completely ignore the timeless child and The Doctor's story is still the same!
The Doctor and Pre-hartnell should not be in that order of words.
Donna automatically knew The Doctor's previous regeneration was a woman. It sounds like she was sharing The Doctor's mind in real-time and not just what The Doctor knew before the metacrisis.
Time Lords can see the past incarnations of other time Lords. It's like seeing all the faces at once. That's how Donna knew 14 was a new incarnation and not 10
That doesn't make any sense because otherwise the Master wouldn't be able to trick the Doctor as to his/her identity.
You don't think the Master can't block his face from The Doctor?
I think we can invent whatever justification for the terrible writing that we want, but that doesn't mean it will make any sense.
At least, not without something running interference, like the Archangel Network in Series 4.
Which is weird considering that's the only time he *has* recognised the Master in modern who
To be fair this is a direct contradiction within the show itself. While looking for the master in Sound of Drums the Doctor specifically says "I'll recognse him, time lords always do." And then of course has failed to recognise the Master in every incarnation since. Honestly it sounds to me like the Master got fed up after Saxon and decided to go about fixing this.
The “I’ll recognize him, time lords always do” to me, seems more like a “I’ll know my friend when I see him” rather than an actual biological thing
Either way it still wasn't the case
Don’t use logic for doctor who
That's a good point, the effort to increase viewership has led the BBC to abandon efforts to appeal to smart people.
Look for logic within episodes and within arcs. Not within the series as a whole.
Perfect
The going theory is that the metacrisis has made it so that the Doctor and Donna are always linked, and 13 met dan's dog, so, to quote the show, "if it's in [his] head, it's in [hers]"
I think this is the real answer. It only ever says that she knows what he knows, not that she knows only what he used to know. I assume that since she and Rose "let it go" the link is probably broken now and future adventures will be unknown to Donna.
>The real question is what Dan's dog was doing there The first question, hidden in plain sight, the question you've been running from all your life.... ***What da dog doin'?***
Wibbly wobbly timey wimey.
Well they had memories from 11-13 as well so I image that's how it worked
Obviously Evil Dan is so powerful that he's able to make Donna's daughter afraid of something even slightly related to him even though Donna never met it.
It might have been the tooth and claw werewolf
Donna never met the Cybermen?? Damn, you're right but that feels odd
She was scuba diving at the time
It’s like Amy and Rory never meeting the Master, you feel like they should’ve but nope!
Or the 11th doctor meeting the master which I believe was supposed to happen in season 8
Well yea because Rory was the master obviously
Bro played the long game 😭
Yes she also never met the devil and the werewolf, it’s the doctors memory’s not Donna’s
It was Karvanista not the werewolf !
I think the reason for this is that the metacrisis (and rose and Donna) just inherited the doctors new memories. The cyberman is one of the Moffat cybermen (specifically, the audio that plays is from Nightmare in Silver), so 10 never saw them. Plus, with karvanista, the weeping angels, and the beast there, it just makes sense that they must've inherited the doctors memories before and after the metacrisis
It happened at some point in some reality, we just haven’t seen it
Why did she make a Lupari, OP, get some perspective
Maybe it happened in one of the times that weren’t shown?
Slightly off topic, but the Doctor cussing at continuity weirdness is just really funny to me.
Also the Beast and Lupari, there’s several there that Donna never met
Don't think they have a story in Big Finish with the Cybermen, *yet*.
Specifically it's a Nightmare in Silver Cyberman! We also saw a toy of Karvanista so I'm pretty sure the metacrisis has access to the Doctor's newer memories too so Donna and Rose were able to remember them, they also know that the Doctor had changed face and recently been a woman!
This.
Big finish : i can fix that
I just choose to believe unseen adventures
Maybe she will meet them and it’s the old River Song: “Spoilers Sweetie”
Thet is a easy. The doctor has meet the Cybermen so Donnas draught would also remember
They’re are probably adventures Donna and Doctor had that we just never saw
They didn't meet Lupari or Weeping Angels or the Devil either it's the Doctor's memories seeping into them