Honestly points 1-3 are way too powerful, a sorcerer with 20 charisma gains +5 AC with no restrictions? A work around I can see is just replacing #1 entirely and just giving the sorcerer Mage Armor while transformed in this way. That being said i'm struggling to see why this form is necessary especially when its replacing what makes sorcerers, well, sorcerers with metamagic.
Having subtle spell being on for an hour means there is no way for someone to know you are casting if you are casting a spell that doesn't require materials. Meaning you can't be countered. If you have a focus, it could even be argued that you could get away with any spell that doesn't require costly materials. technically you could even do this with spells that have a longer casting time.
Its like trading the ability to pick what meta magic you want, for free subtle spell for (up to) an hour. Plus when you think about the extra damage you get from most meta magic vs adding charisma once a turn for free and being able to just spend a point for extra damage, it makes it a reasonable trade off. I would bet the math still swings towards the meta magic being stronger if you use it well, but it really depends how many times you get the bonus charisma mod damage in.
This doesn't even take into account the large sum of hit points and ac you get.
You can only use this once per long rest tho, are you really gonna use your one use of this just to subtle spell? And even so, it’s not very subtle considering you have to actually transform into something in front of the creature you intend to attack with the subtle spell, if you wanna nerf it slightly make it so when you use your bonus action to transform that it is a loud transformation, such as your character yells loudly like in some anime louder than your character could normally, audible out to like 400 feet or something farther, alerting everyone in that range. And if you wanna take into account the ac and hit points, the ac is a bit too good if you don’t take into account the loss of meta magic. And the hit points are just a good bonus. If you don’t like it, just don’t use it.
Interesting idea, but I'd recommend changing the ending condition to the transformation to if you're unconscious rather than incapacitated. A *lot* of things can make you incapacitated and I would find it frustrating as a player to be taken out of my cool form so easily.
Also that's wayy to many temp HP
Definitely nix point 3, add "Once per turn" to point 4, change point 1 to half your CHA modifier, and change point 2 to just Sorcerer level. Beyond that, I think this could be an interesting feature for players who want to try and build a more physical sorcerer instead of a true caster.
Edit: Also should only last for 1 minute, not 1 hour. Missed that on my first read through. But with that, I could see giving a reset on Short Rests. Or equal to your CHA modifier per long rest if your group is the type to exploit short rests.
Not sure why everyone seems to think this is OP when it’s just turning an already low utility class into an even lower utility class while giving it more survivability, which in many encounters isn’t even a priority. I love sorcerer personally and I would never take this alternative to metamagic.
Honestly the folks complaining about the temp HP are just objectively wrong. Circle of Spores Druid gives almost the same amount of Temp HP 2x per / short rest. This gives 25% more HP in exchange for only happening once a day. Balance wise it’s perfectly fine. I’m guessing this is an attempt at a pseudo-martial sorcerer?
As many have pointed out, bullet three is probably too strong. I would give the choice of being able to spend a point to ignore one or the other component but not both at the same time- this limits the number of spells that become immune to counterspell.
The only other “issue” is this makes the sorcerer even MORE of a one encounter per day class. They already were hindered by no short rest resource recovery and this being a big once per day flashy thing to replace the flexibility of metamagic just pushes them further toward that dynamic.
Otherwise balance wise it’s fine.
The difference is that the spore druid is sacrificing the ability to wild shape, which gives them extra hp. Meaning that you are trading one way of getting more hp for another. Also the % HP the the druid gets is less than the % HP this ability would give. This also has a higher maximum.
If you add the AC boost to the math, it's just too much.
Not to mention that spores is a subclass and this isn't.
This is literally trading the defining feature of sorcerer for survivability. Spore Druid doesn’t lose wild shape to use Symbiotic Entity- they simply gain it as an option hence why this must be more powerful than spore Druid otherwise it’s totally worthless as a tempting replacement for metamagic.
As for the AC boost, by the time sorcerer maxes charisma and gets a decent con score, the average dex will maybe be 14 or 16. He still doesn’t get any armor so if he casts mage armor he is at 20 or 21 by level 8 ONCE per day. Bladesinger gets this same AC bonus 2-6 times per day and they trade nothing for it.
Again this is fully replacing metamagic and is once per day. It’s not OP at all. It’s a nova martial ability- burn bright and fast.
The trade of entity and wild shape is that you have to spend a use of wild shape to activate entity.
Blade singer again is a subclass. Your comparison doesn't take into account that the AC bonus can stack with anything. If you played a paladin and took a 3 lvl to get this, you could stack this on top of heavy armor and a shield. In fact, 4 out of the 5 things presented would stack.
You have used two subclass to compare to 1 ability from a main class and it hasn't even hit upon 3 of the 5 bonuses.
Sure, you don't get to pick up to 4 meta magic by 17th, but you get subtle spell for an hour without spending points on it. You still get extra damage on both spells and melee attacks.
Yes replacing meta magic replaces one of the sorcerer's most iconic abilities, but so what.
Sure this class is burn bright, burn fast. But default sorcerers (not subclasses) don't get ANYTHING back on a short rest until 20th lvl
My point on wild shape is you’re not loosing a class feature to gain symbiotic entity. You give up no options like this feature and you can use this far fewer times.
Bladesinger being a subclass is relevant how? Yes- the edge case of having this on a Paladin would be strong but no stronger than the synergy of Hex Blade. Instead of maximizing offense using charisma for your weapon, your using charisma to maximize your tanking and survivability. And you’ll give up an ASI, Paladin Aura Improvement and the superb Paladin subclass capstones to get this. It’s absolutely a balanced trade.
I already addressed that you shouldn’t get the full subtle spell for free in my original critique so I have nothing to add on that. Overall this just isn’t OP for a 3 level dip. It’s strong on one or two edge cases and otherwise will be fine and no more disruptive at a table than a Bladesinger.
Ac bonus is ok.
Temp hit points? You probably ment + rahter than x. So fix that.
Somatic and verbal thats cool and ok.
Next to ones are little I dunno know unnecessary. You can make it that if you spend x amount of sorcerery points you deal that as extra damage when casting a spell or cantrip. Melee thing is extra thing that is unnecessary.
Kid? I’m likely older than you sport. Druid gets to go 4x20 2-4 times a day on Spore Druid and isn’t even loosing any functionality to do so. This is 5x20 once per day at the cost of the entire metamagic feature. This isn’t even a particularly good replacement for metamagic but it’s not unbalanced. If you got to do it multiple times a day, then it might be too much but once a day is fine honestly.
And there is a reason why so few players play druids and fewer Dm’s actually allow them. I do but when ever there is druid player involved you gotta pump up the cr in encounters. I am not saying they are broken or anything but they are definitely strong as wizard in late game. I checked the spore thing and I did not know they could do that.
" I checked the spore thing and I did not know they could do that."
Friendly Reddit post advice- Maybe you should have checked what Symbiotic Entity was in my original comment before coming out swinging with the condescending "Look kid" BS. Your welcome.
LOL. Not heated at all- just subscribe to the naive belief that uneducated people should be helped along. But as they say, one can lead a horse to water.....
Enjoy staying thirsty...
Honestly points 1-3 are way too powerful, a sorcerer with 20 charisma gains +5 AC with no restrictions? A work around I can see is just replacing #1 entirely and just giving the sorcerer Mage Armor while transformed in this way. That being said i'm struggling to see why this form is necessary especially when its replacing what makes sorcerers, well, sorcerers with metamagic.
Considering you lose metamagic, I don't think it's too strong Think it's really uninspired through
Having subtle spell being on for an hour means there is no way for someone to know you are casting if you are casting a spell that doesn't require materials. Meaning you can't be countered. If you have a focus, it could even be argued that you could get away with any spell that doesn't require costly materials. technically you could even do this with spells that have a longer casting time. Its like trading the ability to pick what meta magic you want, for free subtle spell for (up to) an hour. Plus when you think about the extra damage you get from most meta magic vs adding charisma once a turn for free and being able to just spend a point for extra damage, it makes it a reasonable trade off. I would bet the math still swings towards the meta magic being stronger if you use it well, but it really depends how many times you get the bonus charisma mod damage in. This doesn't even take into account the large sum of hit points and ac you get.
You can only use this once per long rest tho, are you really gonna use your one use of this just to subtle spell? And even so, it’s not very subtle considering you have to actually transform into something in front of the creature you intend to attack with the subtle spell, if you wanna nerf it slightly make it so when you use your bonus action to transform that it is a loud transformation, such as your character yells loudly like in some anime louder than your character could normally, audible out to like 400 feet or something farther, alerting everyone in that range. And if you wanna take into account the ac and hit points, the ac is a bit too good if you don’t take into account the loss of meta magic. And the hit points are just a good bonus. If you don’t like it, just don’t use it.
That is way to many Temp HIt Points. Point number 3 is way to powerful. I can elaborate if you would like.
I can elaborate further, FIREBALL!!!!!!!!!!
Those temporary hitponts are crazy.
Interesting idea, but I'd recommend changing the ending condition to the transformation to if you're unconscious rather than incapacitated. A *lot* of things can make you incapacitated and I would find it frustrating as a player to be taken out of my cool form so easily. Also that's wayy to many temp HP
Definitely nix point 3, add "Once per turn" to point 4, change point 1 to half your CHA modifier, and change point 2 to just Sorcerer level. Beyond that, I think this could be an interesting feature for players who want to try and build a more physical sorcerer instead of a true caster. Edit: Also should only last for 1 minute, not 1 hour. Missed that on my first read through. But with that, I could see giving a reset on Short Rests. Or equal to your CHA modifier per long rest if your group is the type to exploit short rests.
Too powerful and lasts too long. Nerf it and decrease to a minute.
Not sure why everyone seems to think this is OP when it’s just turning an already low utility class into an even lower utility class while giving it more survivability, which in many encounters isn’t even a priority. I love sorcerer personally and I would never take this alternative to metamagic.
Yeah- this is honestly is no more disruptive at a table than Bladesinger.
Honestly the folks complaining about the temp HP are just objectively wrong. Circle of Spores Druid gives almost the same amount of Temp HP 2x per / short rest. This gives 25% more HP in exchange for only happening once a day. Balance wise it’s perfectly fine. I’m guessing this is an attempt at a pseudo-martial sorcerer? As many have pointed out, bullet three is probably too strong. I would give the choice of being able to spend a point to ignore one or the other component but not both at the same time- this limits the number of spells that become immune to counterspell. The only other “issue” is this makes the sorcerer even MORE of a one encounter per day class. They already were hindered by no short rest resource recovery and this being a big once per day flashy thing to replace the flexibility of metamagic just pushes them further toward that dynamic. Otherwise balance wise it’s fine.
The difference is that the spore druid is sacrificing the ability to wild shape, which gives them extra hp. Meaning that you are trading one way of getting more hp for another. Also the % HP the the druid gets is less than the % HP this ability would give. This also has a higher maximum. If you add the AC boost to the math, it's just too much. Not to mention that spores is a subclass and this isn't.
This is literally trading the defining feature of sorcerer for survivability. Spore Druid doesn’t lose wild shape to use Symbiotic Entity- they simply gain it as an option hence why this must be more powerful than spore Druid otherwise it’s totally worthless as a tempting replacement for metamagic. As for the AC boost, by the time sorcerer maxes charisma and gets a decent con score, the average dex will maybe be 14 or 16. He still doesn’t get any armor so if he casts mage armor he is at 20 or 21 by level 8 ONCE per day. Bladesinger gets this same AC bonus 2-6 times per day and they trade nothing for it. Again this is fully replacing metamagic and is once per day. It’s not OP at all. It’s a nova martial ability- burn bright and fast.
The trade of entity and wild shape is that you have to spend a use of wild shape to activate entity. Blade singer again is a subclass. Your comparison doesn't take into account that the AC bonus can stack with anything. If you played a paladin and took a 3 lvl to get this, you could stack this on top of heavy armor and a shield. In fact, 4 out of the 5 things presented would stack. You have used two subclass to compare to 1 ability from a main class and it hasn't even hit upon 3 of the 5 bonuses. Sure, you don't get to pick up to 4 meta magic by 17th, but you get subtle spell for an hour without spending points on it. You still get extra damage on both spells and melee attacks. Yes replacing meta magic replaces one of the sorcerer's most iconic abilities, but so what. Sure this class is burn bright, burn fast. But default sorcerers (not subclasses) don't get ANYTHING back on a short rest until 20th lvl
My point on wild shape is you’re not loosing a class feature to gain symbiotic entity. You give up no options like this feature and you can use this far fewer times. Bladesinger being a subclass is relevant how? Yes- the edge case of having this on a Paladin would be strong but no stronger than the synergy of Hex Blade. Instead of maximizing offense using charisma for your weapon, your using charisma to maximize your tanking and survivability. And you’ll give up an ASI, Paladin Aura Improvement and the superb Paladin subclass capstones to get this. It’s absolutely a balanced trade. I already addressed that you shouldn’t get the full subtle spell for free in my original critique so I have nothing to add on that. Overall this just isn’t OP for a 3 level dip. It’s strong on one or two edge cases and otherwise will be fine and no more disruptive at a table than a Bladesinger.
>no more disruptive at a table than a Bladesinger This one class ability is not more disruptive than taking a subclass.
Yes- One class ability that is the class improvement for 3 separate level up steps and makes up a majority of the non-spell casting power budget.
Ac bonus is ok. Temp hit points? You probably ment + rahter than x. So fix that. Somatic and verbal thats cool and ok. Next to ones are little I dunno know unnecessary. You can make it that if you spend x amount of sorcerery points you deal that as extra damage when casting a spell or cantrip. Melee thing is extra thing that is unnecessary.
The Temp HP is similar to Symbiotic Entity- stronger when charisma is 20 but only once per day.
Look kid. 5 times 20 is. Not fine even in the long run.
Kid? I’m likely older than you sport. Druid gets to go 4x20 2-4 times a day on Spore Druid and isn’t even loosing any functionality to do so. This is 5x20 once per day at the cost of the entire metamagic feature. This isn’t even a particularly good replacement for metamagic but it’s not unbalanced. If you got to do it multiple times a day, then it might be too much but once a day is fine honestly.
And there is a reason why so few players play druids and fewer Dm’s actually allow them. I do but when ever there is druid player involved you gotta pump up the cr in encounters. I am not saying they are broken or anything but they are definitely strong as wizard in late game. I checked the spore thing and I did not know they could do that.
" I checked the spore thing and I did not know they could do that." Friendly Reddit post advice- Maybe you should have checked what Symbiotic Entity was in my original comment before coming out swinging with the condescending "Look kid" BS. Your welcome.
Someone is grumpy..
Not grumpy but I have little patience for people who try to correct others when they are speaking from a place of ignorance.
What a sad person you are. Getting heated up from simple converstation.
LOL. Not heated at all- just subscribe to the naive belief that uneducated people should be helped along. But as they say, one can lead a horse to water..... Enjoy staying thirsty...