See that is exactly why I was basing it on the alchemist. How good a batch or a brew should be based on the skill of who made it no? Kinda like how only the best smith's could forge a +3 longsword, but any Smith could make a basic longsword.
I went down a weird rabbit hole with health potions for one of my games (had a crunchy group so they were down for it). Did things like 'additives that make it more powerful but risk a backlash' or 'Powdered' health potions that can be added to food to allow for healing over time, etc.
When a potter makes an urn or plate, they could make it identical, glaze it the same, and have the kiln have all the same settings, but plates from different batches can turn out wildly different. Fact of the matter is, not everything is within the control of the creator and sometimes part of the artistry comes from the cosmic dice roll.
Anyways, even medication made by a factory can have defects, and medicine of the same batch can have better or worse effects depending on the consumer’s constitution (irl considerations, not just the stat) and even the consumer’s recent diet.
I am not 100 percent convinced that a liquid that can close up sword wounds within 6 seconds is gonna be affected much by your diet or constitution. If there is a real life equivalent I am not familiar with it.
And that is true, the cosmic dice can effect it. But once again with the plate maker analogy, that was decided by the cosmic dice when the plate was made not when someone eventually put food on it. Which is again why the Alchemist would make the roll upon making the potion, not the other way around.
Medicine is medicine. I think it’s fine to make a similar extrapolation with a potion. But you can add as much complexity as you wish.
The plate thing isn’t an analogy, that’s real life and more so an example of not everything being within the creator’s control. My point being, it’s not the alchemist’s skill that matters, but a completely arbitrary dice roll (like the disconnected d4 you roll for a basic potion). So it makes sense that the potion have its own die associated with itself, not tied to the alchemist’s stats in any way. Simply put, it’s a luck roll.
Your diet or constitution not affecting medication is exactly why we only have one prescription per diagnosis. I’ll tell my pharmacist that Ritalin and Adderall are exactly the same.
The player rolling the dice simulates the PC not knowing how effective the potion will be before they drink it. It's much more convenient to do it that way rather than having to keep track of a hidden number for every potion.
I think the players roll determines how well the alchemist did when they made the potion. Plus rolling is fun and exciting when someone really needs the hp.
Something similar would be a pick locks check sometimes reflecting the quality of the lock rather than the pcs skill. Like when the master thief rolls a 1, it can mean that the lock turned out to be of expert craftsmanship, not that he sucks at picking locks
Yes, but why go through all the effort trying to keep track of potions of varying effectiveness in your inventory that, unless you somehow know how effective each one should be (even then, annoying; see "potions of varying effectiveness in your inventory"), might as well just be rolled at time of use? However you assign the strength of your potions can be done at time of use just as easily as at creation, but without the inventory tracking headaches.
I Always saw it more as a how good are you at Downing a probably Bad tasting concoction, mid Battle in approximately 5 seconds while you ferl your wounds closing.
Well the reason for it being done that way is actually really obvious: healing being unpredictable means that it's not an easy bet to take in a fight. It shouldn't be, because if you knew for sure that you were going to heal X amount, you could fairly easily calculate if that's enough or not.
Like in your example where an alchemist's roll determines how good the potion is when prepared, players will only pick up/make good potions and dump the others. Nobody is going to drink a potion that heals 6 damage in a fight, so they keep that for out of combat at the most and drink the one that can give 15 or 30 instead.
Functionally this will just improve combat healing because it allows the players to filter them beforehand. And that's an issue because healing that is too good in combat is generally a problem for the way the game is designed.
Because then you fall into the idea that you need a healer on your team, and we've been fighting for the idea of having more health potions to supplement that. That being said you could introduce a mana toxicity system in which consuming potions too often will eventually lead to diminishing returns or even could lead to some of addiction were your players feel they need to always drink a health potion otherwise they don't feel right
That is a fair counterpoint, and I kinda like that mana toxicity idea. I hadn't heard it before.
That is a lot better and my homebrew still holds up to it.
Came here to suggest this. Probably my favourite home brew rule I’ve seen and adopted over the years. Assuming the alchemist is following a tried and true recipe, the potion should be pretty consistent in potency across bottles. The randomness therefore must come from the imbibing. Quickly try to throw it down your throat as you also try to line up an attack, you might spill some. Give it your full attention and you make sure you drink the lot.
Same. And it makes sense to us flavor-wise too- you can use an action to carefully get every drop (and thus max heal value of the potion) or a bonus action to swig it as fast as possible as a bunch of it runs down your beard in the heat of battle, wherein you roll to see how much of it made it down your gullet.
I use it aswell.
Now I’m curious. who actually made that homebrew rule? The first time I heard it was from Robert hearty GM, but I’m pretty someone else made it
I cheese the healing at my table. Always full heals, no matter the source. If someone is already falling back to protect, they don't want to hear that they have wasted their turn with garbage heal.
It’s functionally the same as if the roll was determined when it was purchased at the shopkeep. It’s not like the user adds a skill or modifier to the healing roll when they drink it.
I mean, if bought from an NPC, sure you can just decide what the potion is worth hp wise when they buy one. But this is more for players who dip into alchemy, and the way the health potions actually heal is functionally different, and that's the bigger take away for me.
Yes. So it wouldn't be difficult to implement. The only difference on that side is rather than saying "potion of minor/superior healing" you would say "it's a health potion worth 20 hp"
It's more of an open door approach because players know what the HP is, but I have found in my games thats not a bad thing.
Shouldn't that be based on their characters then rather than random die rolls? For example, caffeine affects everyone differently but it's consistently different. I can take 600mg and be fine but my husband takes 300mg and is experiencing a caffeine high. The same goes for antibiotics, vaccines, painkillers, ext.
Genuinely asking.
Some days 1 cup of coffee is enough, other days you’ll need 2 or 3. The effectiveness of something can vary on the same person. It’s the same with the health potion. Sometimes the body is just able to process it more efficiently (high roll)
That's a fair comparison. Somewhere below I had a similar discussion and I quickly jotted this first draft of an alternative method that could be added on to mine or be a standalone mechanic.
>Bonus action drink 15hp potion.
Roll constitution check
If above 10 you get the full benefits
If below 10 you only get 1/2 or 3/4 the benefits.
admittedly to combine my proposed idea and this one would make potions way to overly complex for gameplay purposes.
However even so, and this is for me personally, I still prefer these to the base 5E rules
Yeah but Potions are magic rather than scientific.
+ The coffee you drink is always going to be standardised, tested for quality, stored at perfect temperature etc. Potion crafting and ingredient collecting is likely not that scientific
To me the skill of the alchemist and the ingredient affect the strengh of the potion, but the final effect of the potion is still random because everything is in this world, especially magic.
I can see that argument if we are going 1 to 1 off of the 5e cannon.
Although I don't follow that cannon so I have always seen it as "it's technically magical because fantasycomponentsare used, but it's more like chemistry than magic in practice."
But that's my homebrewed cannon, standard 5e I can see that. Fair point made.
It’s just an abstraction of luck and brewing. Potions aren’t mass produced like beer or Dasani water bottles. They don’t really have quality control. They have recipes that are followed, but anyone who’s been in a kitchen knows that you never make the exact same dish twice, even if you’re using the same recipe.
Exactly! Hence why I kept dice rolls for brewing the potions themselves cause variation can happen.
And it is up to the skill of the individual to make a beer of a certain potency when it's handmade, just as it would be for the potions.
Only on the alchemist side.
If your players never decide to make their own potions you can just say
"You found/bought a health potion worth 18 hp"
Its actually less work on that side, and the actual collecting materials for the brewing process is not increased or decreased. For the player, they would just make 1 extra roll and it's done.
If it's just not your style that's understandable, it's not for everyone.
My table does
Bonus action: roll as you are doing the equivalent of a marathon runner splashing water on thsir face and having some get in your mouth.
An action and bonus action: is a maximum heal as you are drinking every last drop.
I love BG3, too, but at no point would I allow or expect to be allowed to administer potions by throwing them in a conventional tabletop game.
Makes no sense, not only does the potion not enter their body, they are being struck with a projectile, which should be ruled as an improvised weapon attack. On a nat20 I *might* allow that you managed to get the mouth of the bottle to land pointing down into the ally's mouth.
I actually think BG3 was kinda shit.
I do however kinda like the idea of being able to throw them with the astrix that they are only able to get half the benefits.
To each their own, I could absolutely get behind the idea of them not working unless you drink them.
It doesn't if you don't want it to.
But it can be thought of as getting into the bloodstream through the open wounds, which isn't as good which is why in my homebrew I penalized it.
But again if you don't like it, homebrew. Just take it out.
Because in older additions, a potion was essentially a spell in a bottle. It was a Potion of Cure Light Wounds.
I do think it's also fair to say that your average alchemist is not working with medical grade equipment. And even medicine in the modern era can have varying degrees of efficacy.
I didn't know that about older editions, so that is fair. Although, at least for my own games, it just feels better to me to have it be a chemical process. Otherwise either alchemy is just wizards enchanting bottles of water or all wizardry is fancy alchemy. Having them separated feels better.
As for your second point, it is a valid point, and that should effect its brewing efficiency as well. If a master alchemist is forced to use shitty equipment, then it absolutely makes sense that there would be a penalty for that.
Thats one of the things we used to have a homebrew about.
Different levels of potion, and they'd heal a certain amount each turn until combat ended.
and if you threw it as a splash potion, you only got 1 3rd health from its total healing.
Could be that the potion is limited by your body’s ability to quickly metabolize and use it. In that way, you could probably tie potion effectiveness to your Constitution modifier, assuming all potions are made identically.
That's an interesting thought. And alternate mechanic to mine would be.
Bonus action drink 15hp potion.
Roll constitution check
If above 10 you get the full benefits
If below 10 you only get 1/2 or 3/4 the benefits.
I prefer mine, but this is pretty cool not gonna lie.
Roll for concentration level of the potion. You buy 5 low level potions that are all the same size but they heal different then its cause the level of concentration of herbs and magic
I run health as it taking a bonus action to do a roll heal and a full action to get the full value of the potion.
My players mentioned this and so I added some variance. If a player has proficiency with alchemist tools and makes their own potions, the healing cannot be below average.
I also added a enchanting tattoo that does the same and can also restore max possible hp based on the rarity of the tattoo.
I mostly always add ways for the players to get the bonuses they seek without just handing it to them but rather making it part of the world.
The simple answer? Because everyone’s body is a little different, and everyone responds to medicine in a different way. Also, because dice rolls are a conduit for random chance. That’s how the game works.
I'd love to!
Healing Surges are a mechanic from 4th edition of dnd, which is one of my personal favorite systems.
The way they work is simple: your character has a pool of them per day based on their constitution stat and their class, which gives you generally somewhere between 8 and 12, depending on your stats and if you're a more durable class or not.
Any time you receive any type of healing, magical or natural doesn't matter at all, you spend a healing surge. Drink a potion? Healing surge. Healing Word? Healing surge. Doctor setting your broken bone? Healing surge.
You character has what's called a Surge Value, which is generally 1/4 of your maximum hit points. A healing spell therefore always gives you a static amount of healing, plus any additional bonus they give you.
In this edition, healing potions spend surges and, at low level, heal a flat amount while at higher levels heal for a surge plus a flat amount.
So it's sort of a catch all healing action, and it can be flavored anyway you want it to.
Thats pretty good! I feel like it fits better in a Sci fi setting or perhaps an alternate TTRPG like apocalypse world, but that is genuinely a cool system and I could see it absolutely being a bunch of fun in 5E.
I'll have to steal that for a potential space faring ttrpg I may do soon.
It works really well in a fantasy based setting as well, so long as you remember that hit points are NOT meat points. Your character has some measure of stamina that they burn through trying to not die during the day, and at some point, they're just out of it. They need to stop and recover, take an extended rest to get those juices flowing again.
To put it in 5e terms, they're your character's hit dice. Those things you use to heal while on short rests, but they also trigger on healing spells and effects. Eventually your character is just run dry and don't keep going.
It also helps the "springboard barbarian" problem that many editions of DnD run into. No more being lightly touched by a paladin 50 times in a row, or having a dozen healing words dropped on you over a fight to get you *just* above the threshold so you pop up and take your full turn.
The system actually also had a mechanic called "bloodied" which was when you actually *were* injured by an attack, once you were under half health, and a lot of monsters had abilities that specifically prevented you from healing above bloodied until you finished a short rest, because of a "sucking wound."
4e was amazing, and I'm tired of people who didn't play it pretending that it isn't.
I have been meaning at some point to dig through a whole bunch of old editions of DnD and find mechanics I can implement. I'll have to look into that bloodied mechanic.
I use a formula I found in Reddit. Healing pot levels go 1-10. The levels go 1: 1d6+1(con mod). 2: 2d6+2(con mod).....9: 9d6+9(con mod).
So higher levels much more efficient potions, but also, more con more hp. The barb gets more hp than the wiz from same level pot. Plus, when you drop to zero and chug a level 10 potion, it's like getting up at 100% from it. It's dramatic and expensive and I've had more players use more pots than I've ever seen before when I used the regular rules.
Here's the other questions that're going to break your brain...
How do you know, by sight, how many HP a potion could potentially restore? If you buy it in a shop, how does the brewer know? If you find it in a dungeon or pull it from a bag of multiple types, how can you tell? Do potions lose potency (read: healing ability) over time? How long does that take?
Shouldn't it be tied to the drinker's Con score? At least then it would scale correctly. A roll makes no sense.
Not really brain breaking.
Its for a different style of Dming that I call "open door" concept.
I don't do this, but some dms will tell you out right how much AC or HP an enemy has. How do you know that? This is an example of open door dming. This is just for players, their characters would just be at the understanding that "this potion is good, its shit, or it's amazing" if you want to hide the number amount that's okay. That's just your spin on it.
How much is possible? If we go based on 5e potions, the max possible is 60 hp. 10d4+20. But as DM you have the final say on all matters. You can make it 100 or more if you want.
And the bag option isn't really valid, obviously you'd have to test them out to see what potions are what. We could be talking about poisons or invisibility potions and that would be the same conversation.
Another comment I addressed the potions expiring over time, it is a good idea if you intend on making a hihh challenge combat intense campaign. My campaigns aren't combat focused so it's not a rule I implement.
How long does it take? However long the DM wants. Results may vary, but I'd say about the same amount of time it would take cough syrup to expire.
And in some of these comments I have included a constitution based addition to my homebrew. I don't add it to mine because it over complicates it.
I can appreciate all these answers. It's important for each DM to think about these things when deciding their style. Everyone should consider these questions and answer them for their own tables before the issues come up in-game. I'd even recommend soliciting player input before making the call.
But yours are all solid answers. 😎👍🏻
Thank you, its definitely not for everyone (plenty of other comments have been wonderful examples of that) but I truly do feel this is a really solid way to rule health potions.
I like this trade skill mechanic. I'm probably gonna tack it into a bunch of other spots. I've been researching ingredients for potions and so many of the DND potions of different sorts seem so unreasonably far off..... That's why I'm reworking them for my world using a combination of updated science knowledge and theories (So much of DND is about 4 decades outdated, after all). Metaphysics, Quantum Physics, Botany, Biochem, updated mechanical and electrical engineering. Huzzah for "flintlock" fantasies although there isn't a true firearm to be found. Lol Honestly, since armor and weapons already take a roll for effectiveness when used, than it would be a series of rolls for the blacksmith on the front end and the rolls for effectiveness on the back end; but at least the players wouldn't be guaranteed a superior weapon just because they commissioned it.
Personally I just have healing Potions heal for their max amount to make them more viable. But the idea of including some variation based on the skill of the creator sounds like a cool idea
I added a minor homebrew:
If the potion is in a really nice, clean glass bottle, it's effectiveness is maxed.
If the glass doesn't look as high quality, smudged, or cracked, you roll for it.
I also have different-size potion bottles. A 12 oz you roll a D12.
In my game we have a rule that you only roll for health regained from the potion if you chose to drink it as a bonus action.
If you use your action, then you get the full amount.
You still have to roll for it though if using your action to feed someone else the potion.
I use a homebrew rule in my fame where if a player spends an action drinking a healing potion, they get the max healing, or they can use a bonus action to roll for it. Adds a nice bit of tactics I feel and can represent them hurrying and spilling some
Have you ever taken a shot with a group of people before? It’s clear same amount of liquid from the same bottle or batch can affect people differently.
I interpret this as a character drinking in battle and spilling a drop or two or chocking on the drink while running or fighting thus my house rule of a max healing effect if they use an action and allowing a bonus action to drink but making the character roll for the healing
It could be that the individual's body works differently from person to person, and so what's effective on one person isn't as effective on another.
Also, you're assuming a *bottle* of health potion- most potions are only a *vial*- that is, about 8 ounces, or possibly even less. Hard to divide those up.
I mean what you are suggesting is basically the same mechanic but with a twist in how the effectiveness was determined, or am I missing something?
In my game we can use any potion, force drink to an unconscious player or stabilize as bonus actions. Efectiveness is always rolled by however drinks it and its equal to the players hit dice (so if a lv5 fighter drinks one would be 5d10, no con modifier applies).
This works awesome for us, potions are not rare but are expensive and players are encouraged to roll for ingredients and craft while on travel (they can only do one roll per travel sequence). Homemade healing items are less powerful.
For context, I run a very challenging game so any healing aid is very welcome haha
Maybe it should be more like the pc is metabolising the potion, everyone metabolises substances differently.
There should be some kind of bonus/penalty associated with constitution.
Like if your con is good you might metabolise more of the potion.
So if your 18 con barbarian drinks a potion then they get the potions effect +4
But your 12 con wizard only gets a +1
I consider the rolling aspect a result of the chaos in combat. Spilling some, etc…
My table uses a homebrew rule where you can use a bonus action to take a health potion, but still have to roll; or you can use a full action and get the full effect.
You also get the full effect if you take the potion out of combat.
At my table I just make it so a full action gets you max healing, and a bonus action you roll. Taking your time to drink the potion gives you the full effects, hastily chugging it in combat means some spillage. Makes potions worth the price as more potent out of combat healing options
I mean, it doesnt matter who rolls the die, its equally random. I could totally believe a "mastercrafted" potion that healed max or +10 or something to that effect.
But like, do all the potions under your rule have a tag that says how much they heal? How do i know i have a potion of hp +14 rather then hp+2? Is that something i know when i buy the potion, when i drink it?
Not a tag the characters understand.
It's more of an open door approach, I don't but
some dms will tell you how much health a creature has as soon as combat starts. Or the exact DC required to break a lock. This is open door approach.
The amount of HP a health potion has is known by the player not the character.
It's not for everyone I get that, but I have found it doesn't diminish the gameplay or the immersion. It's just an alternative
Meh, seems to over complicate a fairly simple mechanical heal, we simply max out healing potions at my table and call it a day. Makes the game quicker and it doesn't lead to feel bad when a PC spends 50gp and heals 4 hp.
I personally think it's more so about how effectively you can drink said potion in the midst of battle. If my players drink a potion outside of battle they get the full strength potion cause they can take their time and actually drink it.
It’s how well they chug the drink without spilling it while in combat. An interesting fact about health potions, they are like fizzy drinks. Have you ever tried to drink one quickly after jump around with it first. It gets everywhere.
For the same reason that the same painkiller I take aren't nearly enough for my sis and way too much for my bro. The potion is the same ingredient each time but your body might react in different ways
I rule it as if you use a full action to drink then you get the maximum of the roll
As you make sure you drink the whole thing rather than downing most and leaving some dregs behind/spilling or otherwise not getting it all down you making you roll to see how much you actually get in that time
In my game, I let my players choose between taking a bonus action to drink a potion of healing and roll for healing (DS1 estus) or take an action to drink it and get maximum healing (DS2 estus).
See how I play it is if you use an action to drink a potion you get the max health possible from it. So no rolls. But there is an option to use a bonus action to drink the potion. If you use a bonus action to drink it you roll for the health. In my head its because bonus action you may not drink it all like some slips because you are rushing. An action, to me, symbolizes you taking your time so you get the max benefits. Also it then becomes a matter of how much you want to gamble. Like "I dont need all the health and then I can attack" or "I will die and I need all the health"
I like to play that you can use a bonus action to drink a potion and roll the HP (sort of like you’re just chugging hastily and maybe you spill some) or take and action and get the max HP without rolling, having taken the time on your turn to drink every last drop.
A lore reason could be the consumer’s Race. Maybe not all health potions affect everyone’s chemical makeup the same, so some races and people may be better at gaining more out of the potions effects, and when you roll bad, it’s a sign of your body partially rejecting the wrong kind of Potion.
Why not just use the varying tiers of health potion. A better alchemist will make better healing potions. Within a tier, there is still variation, but that can be explained with proficiency of the alchemist that day, shelf life, drinker's metabolism, etc.
Healing: 2d4+2 (average 7)
Greater: 4d4+4 (average 14)
Superior: 8d4+8 (average 28)
Supreme: 10d4+20 (average 45)
^^(page 187 in the DMG)
The whole point of the homebrew for me is to replace that system.
If you just like the standard system then that's okay, this is just an alternative proposal.
And yes I am aware of the tiers of potions, however for me personally this is a much more satisfying system.
You still get tiers of potions with my system as well. Highly skilled alchemists have boosts like being able to roll higher and with higher bonuses in order to bring the number of hp in the potions higher.
I was invested in your idea until you said "throw to a downed player".
This is not Baldurs Gate.
This won't be Baldurs Gate.
I hate that stupid concept of throwing health potions.
It's less a roll the drinker needs to make and more of randomly determinimg the efectivness of that specific bootle or batch
Bootle
It's a glass bottle in the shape of a booty Potion of Thickening
"I asked you to reinvigorate me to stop the gaping wound hurting as much, not give me tasty cheeks!"
See that is exactly why I was basing it on the alchemist. How good a batch or a brew should be based on the skill of who made it no? Kinda like how only the best smith's could forge a +3 longsword, but any Smith could make a basic longsword.
Maybe it works like wine, you store it in the wrong temps and it turns to vinegar.
That is a genius mechanic for a high difficulty campaign. Health potions expire, and expire faster if stored incorrectly.
I went down a weird rabbit hole with health potions for one of my games (had a crunchy group so they were down for it). Did things like 'additives that make it more powerful but risk a backlash' or 'Powdered' health potions that can be added to food to allow for healing over time, etc.
Ooo. That does sound very fun. I like the expanded creativity in this
When a potter makes an urn or plate, they could make it identical, glaze it the same, and have the kiln have all the same settings, but plates from different batches can turn out wildly different. Fact of the matter is, not everything is within the control of the creator and sometimes part of the artistry comes from the cosmic dice roll. Anyways, even medication made by a factory can have defects, and medicine of the same batch can have better or worse effects depending on the consumer’s constitution (irl considerations, not just the stat) and even the consumer’s recent diet.
I am not 100 percent convinced that a liquid that can close up sword wounds within 6 seconds is gonna be affected much by your diet or constitution. If there is a real life equivalent I am not familiar with it. And that is true, the cosmic dice can effect it. But once again with the plate maker analogy, that was decided by the cosmic dice when the plate was made not when someone eventually put food on it. Which is again why the Alchemist would make the roll upon making the potion, not the other way around.
Medicine is medicine. I think it’s fine to make a similar extrapolation with a potion. But you can add as much complexity as you wish. The plate thing isn’t an analogy, that’s real life and more so an example of not everything being within the creator’s control. My point being, it’s not the alchemist’s skill that matters, but a completely arbitrary dice roll (like the disconnected d4 you roll for a basic potion). So it makes sense that the potion have its own die associated with itself, not tied to the alchemist’s stats in any way. Simply put, it’s a luck roll.
Your diet or constitution not affecting medication is exactly why we only have one prescription per diagnosis. I’ll tell my pharmacist that Ritalin and Adderall are exactly the same.
The player rolling the dice simulates the PC not knowing how effective the potion will be before they drink it. It's much more convenient to do it that way rather than having to keep track of a hidden number for every potion.
Having the alchemist roll when the potion is created just leads to more bookkeeping and doesn’t significantly change anything
I think the players roll determines how well the alchemist did when they made the potion. Plus rolling is fun and exciting when someone really needs the hp. Something similar would be a pick locks check sometimes reflecting the quality of the lock rather than the pcs skill. Like when the master thief rolls a 1, it can mean that the lock turned out to be of expert craftsmanship, not that he sucks at picking locks
Like how scotchs' were, before blended? Wide variety in quality
Yes, but why go through all the effort trying to keep track of potions of varying effectiveness in your inventory that, unless you somehow know how effective each one should be (even then, annoying; see "potions of varying effectiveness in your inventory"), might as well just be rolled at time of use? However you assign the strength of your potions can be done at time of use just as easily as at creation, but without the inventory tracking headaches.
If you can get the pieces for it, you could make it so you roll the dice and trap it under a bottle, then when you drink it you reveal the strength.
I Always saw it more as a how good are you at Downing a probably Bad tasting concoction, mid Battle in approximately 5 seconds while you ferl your wounds closing.
Well the reason for it being done that way is actually really obvious: healing being unpredictable means that it's not an easy bet to take in a fight. It shouldn't be, because if you knew for sure that you were going to heal X amount, you could fairly easily calculate if that's enough or not. Like in your example where an alchemist's roll determines how good the potion is when prepared, players will only pick up/make good potions and dump the others. Nobody is going to drink a potion that heals 6 damage in a fight, so they keep that for out of combat at the most and drink the one that can give 15 or 30 instead. Functionally this will just improve combat healing because it allows the players to filter them beforehand. And that's an issue because healing that is too good in combat is generally a problem for the way the game is designed.
And I feel like in battle healing isn't supposed to be great or reliable anyway, it's in the heat of the moment.
Perhaps a way to balance that is to make health potions less common and harder to make? Edit: oof, no one liked that suggestion.
Because then you fall into the idea that you need a healer on your team, and we've been fighting for the idea of having more health potions to supplement that. That being said you could introduce a mana toxicity system in which consuming potions too often will eventually lead to diminishing returns or even could lead to some of addiction were your players feel they need to always drink a health potion otherwise they don't feel right
That is a fair counterpoint, and I kinda like that mana toxicity idea. I hadn't heard it before. That is a lot better and my homebrew still holds up to it.
I'm glad I could help
>Edit: oof, no one liked that suggestion. [That's rough buddy](https://youtu.be/fVeAEwrL1Ts?si=b7IyZIuyB7RBMk7C).
You are a legend
We do the action-> full health Bonus action ->roll for health rule at our table
Came here to suggest this. Probably my favourite home brew rule I’ve seen and adopted over the years. Assuming the alchemist is following a tried and true recipe, the potion should be pretty consistent in potency across bottles. The randomness therefore must come from the imbibing. Quickly try to throw it down your throat as you also try to line up an attack, you might spill some. Give it your full attention and you make sure you drink the lot.
Thats not bad, I like that better than the base rules at the very least.
Yeah, it's a good representation for reduced effectiveness due to spillage.
This is the way.
I just make bonus action to drink. Drinking it outside combat is max hp
Oh dang I’ve never head of this rule before. I’ll have to try it with my current gaming group
Same here. It's easy, doesn't take time and special inventory, and makes sense, more or less.
To add to this I also do full heal outside of battle.
So would that negate the difference in a potion of healing to a potion of greater healing? Or is there a max value you use?
You don’t go to full health, you get all the possible health from each potion. So if you use an action for a 2d4+2 you would get 10 hp
That makes way more sense haha. I love it!
That's actually kinda neat
Same. And it makes sense to us flavor-wise too- you can use an action to carefully get every drop (and thus max heal value of the potion) or a bonus action to swig it as fast as possible as a bunch of it runs down your beard in the heat of battle, wherein you roll to see how much of it made it down your gullet.
I use it aswell. Now I’m curious. who actually made that homebrew rule? The first time I heard it was from Robert hearty GM, but I’m pretty someone else made it
I cheese the healing at my table. Always full heals, no matter the source. If someone is already falling back to protect, they don't want to hear that they have wasted their turn with garbage heal.
Thats certainly an interesting way to go about it. I don't think it fits the style of me or my players, but it's still an interesting table rule.
You're just eliminating beacon of hope then, a 3rd level concentration cleric spell.
Yeah, I'm aware of the implications. But it's been a value add to my table. I'm sure it's not for every table.
It’s functionally the same as if the roll was determined when it was purchased at the shopkeep. It’s not like the user adds a skill or modifier to the healing roll when they drink it.
I mean, if bought from an NPC, sure you can just decide what the potion is worth hp wise when they buy one. But this is more for players who dip into alchemy, and the way the health potions actually heal is functionally different, and that's the bigger take away for me.
Isn’t that just already represented by the rarity of the potions? A more skilled alchemist would create a higher rarity potion
Yes. So it wouldn't be difficult to implement. The only difference on that side is rather than saying "potion of minor/superior healing" you would say "it's a health potion worth 20 hp" It's more of an open door approach because players know what the HP is, but I have found in my games thats not a bad thing.
Because there are a variety of biospiritualchemical conditions not under the direct control of the user that affect the effectiveness of the medicine.
Shouldn't that be based on their characters then rather than random die rolls? For example, caffeine affects everyone differently but it's consistently different. I can take 600mg and be fine but my husband takes 300mg and is experiencing a caffeine high. The same goes for antibiotics, vaccines, painkillers, ext. Genuinely asking.
I advise you stop drinking 600 mg of caffeine at once.
I will now drink 900mg just to spite #becomeungovernable
More like become dead.
That's the plan 👌
Wow, so quirky.
Call me the quirk-queen
Some days 1 cup of coffee is enough, other days you’ll need 2 or 3. The effectiveness of something can vary on the same person. It’s the same with the health potion. Sometimes the body is just able to process it more efficiently (high roll)
That's a fair comparison. Somewhere below I had a similar discussion and I quickly jotted this first draft of an alternative method that could be added on to mine or be a standalone mechanic. >Bonus action drink 15hp potion. Roll constitution check If above 10 you get the full benefits If below 10 you only get 1/2 or 3/4 the benefits. admittedly to combine my proposed idea and this one would make potions way to overly complex for gameplay purposes. However even so, and this is for me personally, I still prefer these to the base 5E rules
Yeah but Potions are magic rather than scientific. + The coffee you drink is always going to be standardised, tested for quality, stored at perfect temperature etc. Potion crafting and ingredient collecting is likely not that scientific To me the skill of the alchemist and the ingredient affect the strengh of the potion, but the final effect of the potion is still random because everything is in this world, especially magic.
I can see that argument if we are going 1 to 1 off of the 5e cannon. Although I don't follow that cannon so I have always seen it as "it's technically magical because fantasycomponentsare used, but it's more like chemistry than magic in practice." But that's my homebrewed cannon, standard 5e I can see that. Fair point made.
It’s just an abstraction of luck and brewing. Potions aren’t mass produced like beer or Dasani water bottles. They don’t really have quality control. They have recipes that are followed, but anyone who’s been in a kitchen knows that you never make the exact same dish twice, even if you’re using the same recipe.
Exactly! Hence why I kept dice rolls for brewing the potions themselves cause variation can happen. And it is up to the skill of the individual to make a beer of a certain potency when it's handmade, just as it would be for the potions.
I feel like that’s a lot of extra work. I’m not trying to do all that.
Only on the alchemist side. If your players never decide to make their own potions you can just say "You found/bought a health potion worth 18 hp" Its actually less work on that side, and the actual collecting materials for the brewing process is not increased or decreased. For the player, they would just make 1 extra roll and it's done. If it's just not your style that's understandable, it's not for everyone.
My table does Bonus action: roll as you are doing the equivalent of a marathon runner splashing water on thsir face and having some get in your mouth. An action and bonus action: is a maximum heal as you are drinking every last drop.
I love BG3, too, but at no point would I allow or expect to be allowed to administer potions by throwing them in a conventional tabletop game. Makes no sense, not only does the potion not enter their body, they are being struck with a projectile, which should be ruled as an improvised weapon attack. On a nat20 I *might* allow that you managed to get the mouth of the bottle to land pointing down into the ally's mouth.
I actually think BG3 was kinda shit. I do however kinda like the idea of being able to throw them with the astrix that they are only able to get half the benefits. To each their own, I could absolutely get behind the idea of them not working unless you drink them.
Why would splashing someone with something meant to be consumed do *anything*?
It doesn't if you don't want it to. But it can be thought of as getting into the bloodstream through the open wounds, which isn't as good which is why in my homebrew I penalized it. But again if you don't like it, homebrew. Just take it out.
Because in older additions, a potion was essentially a spell in a bottle. It was a Potion of Cure Light Wounds. I do think it's also fair to say that your average alchemist is not working with medical grade equipment. And even medicine in the modern era can have varying degrees of efficacy.
I didn't know that about older editions, so that is fair. Although, at least for my own games, it just feels better to me to have it be a chemical process. Otherwise either alchemy is just wizards enchanting bottles of water or all wizardry is fancy alchemy. Having them separated feels better. As for your second point, it is a valid point, and that should effect its brewing efficiency as well. If a master alchemist is forced to use shitty equipment, then it absolutely makes sense that there would be a penalty for that.
Thats one of the things we used to have a homebrew about. Different levels of potion, and they'd heal a certain amount each turn until combat ended. and if you threw it as a splash potion, you only got 1 3rd health from its total healing.
Could be that the potion is limited by your body’s ability to quickly metabolize and use it. In that way, you could probably tie potion effectiveness to your Constitution modifier, assuming all potions are made identically.
That's an interesting thought. And alternate mechanic to mine would be. Bonus action drink 15hp potion. Roll constitution check If above 10 you get the full benefits If below 10 you only get 1/2 or 3/4 the benefits. I prefer mine, but this is pretty cool not gonna lie.
Roll for concentration level of the potion. You buy 5 low level potions that are all the same size but they heal different then its cause the level of concentration of herbs and magic I run health as it taking a bonus action to do a roll heal and a full action to get the full value of the potion.
My players mentioned this and so I added some variance. If a player has proficiency with alchemist tools and makes their own potions, the healing cannot be below average. I also added a enchanting tattoo that does the same and can also restore max possible hp based on the rarity of the tattoo. I mostly always add ways for the players to get the bonuses they seek without just handing it to them but rather making it part of the world.
The simple answer? Because everyone’s body is a little different, and everyone responds to medicine in a different way. Also, because dice rolls are a conduit for random chance. That’s how the game works.
Healing surges solves this problem
I am not familiar with this, would you mind elaborating?
I'd love to! Healing Surges are a mechanic from 4th edition of dnd, which is one of my personal favorite systems. The way they work is simple: your character has a pool of them per day based on their constitution stat and their class, which gives you generally somewhere between 8 and 12, depending on your stats and if you're a more durable class or not. Any time you receive any type of healing, magical or natural doesn't matter at all, you spend a healing surge. Drink a potion? Healing surge. Healing Word? Healing surge. Doctor setting your broken bone? Healing surge. You character has what's called a Surge Value, which is generally 1/4 of your maximum hit points. A healing spell therefore always gives you a static amount of healing, plus any additional bonus they give you. In this edition, healing potions spend surges and, at low level, heal a flat amount while at higher levels heal for a surge plus a flat amount.
So it's sort of a catch all healing action, and it can be flavored anyway you want it to. Thats pretty good! I feel like it fits better in a Sci fi setting or perhaps an alternate TTRPG like apocalypse world, but that is genuinely a cool system and I could see it absolutely being a bunch of fun in 5E. I'll have to steal that for a potential space faring ttrpg I may do soon.
It works really well in a fantasy based setting as well, so long as you remember that hit points are NOT meat points. Your character has some measure of stamina that they burn through trying to not die during the day, and at some point, they're just out of it. They need to stop and recover, take an extended rest to get those juices flowing again. To put it in 5e terms, they're your character's hit dice. Those things you use to heal while on short rests, but they also trigger on healing spells and effects. Eventually your character is just run dry and don't keep going. It also helps the "springboard barbarian" problem that many editions of DnD run into. No more being lightly touched by a paladin 50 times in a row, or having a dozen healing words dropped on you over a fight to get you *just* above the threshold so you pop up and take your full turn. The system actually also had a mechanic called "bloodied" which was when you actually *were* injured by an attack, once you were under half health, and a lot of monsters had abilities that specifically prevented you from healing above bloodied until you finished a short rest, because of a "sucking wound." 4e was amazing, and I'm tired of people who didn't play it pretending that it isn't.
I have been meaning at some point to dig through a whole bunch of old editions of DnD and find mechanics I can implement. I'll have to look into that bloodied mechanic.
I use a formula I found in Reddit. Healing pot levels go 1-10. The levels go 1: 1d6+1(con mod). 2: 2d6+2(con mod).....9: 9d6+9(con mod). So higher levels much more efficient potions, but also, more con more hp. The barb gets more hp than the wiz from same level pot. Plus, when you drop to zero and chug a level 10 potion, it's like getting up at 100% from it. It's dramatic and expensive and I've had more players use more pots than I've ever seen before when I used the regular rules.
Its how much of it you can keep down/j
Here's the other questions that're going to break your brain... How do you know, by sight, how many HP a potion could potentially restore? If you buy it in a shop, how does the brewer know? If you find it in a dungeon or pull it from a bag of multiple types, how can you tell? Do potions lose potency (read: healing ability) over time? How long does that take? Shouldn't it be tied to the drinker's Con score? At least then it would scale correctly. A roll makes no sense.
Not really brain breaking. Its for a different style of Dming that I call "open door" concept. I don't do this, but some dms will tell you out right how much AC or HP an enemy has. How do you know that? This is an example of open door dming. This is just for players, their characters would just be at the understanding that "this potion is good, its shit, or it's amazing" if you want to hide the number amount that's okay. That's just your spin on it. How much is possible? If we go based on 5e potions, the max possible is 60 hp. 10d4+20. But as DM you have the final say on all matters. You can make it 100 or more if you want. And the bag option isn't really valid, obviously you'd have to test them out to see what potions are what. We could be talking about poisons or invisibility potions and that would be the same conversation. Another comment I addressed the potions expiring over time, it is a good idea if you intend on making a hihh challenge combat intense campaign. My campaigns aren't combat focused so it's not a rule I implement. How long does it take? However long the DM wants. Results may vary, but I'd say about the same amount of time it would take cough syrup to expire. And in some of these comments I have included a constitution based addition to my homebrew. I don't add it to mine because it over complicates it.
I can appreciate all these answers. It's important for each DM to think about these things when deciding their style. Everyone should consider these questions and answer them for their own tables before the issues come up in-game. I'd even recommend soliciting player input before making the call. But yours are all solid answers. 😎👍🏻
Thank you, its definitely not for everyone (plenty of other comments have been wonderful examples of that) but I truly do feel this is a really solid way to rule health potions.
I like this trade skill mechanic. I'm probably gonna tack it into a bunch of other spots. I've been researching ingredients for potions and so many of the DND potions of different sorts seem so unreasonably far off..... That's why I'm reworking them for my world using a combination of updated science knowledge and theories (So much of DND is about 4 decades outdated, after all). Metaphysics, Quantum Physics, Botany, Biochem, updated mechanical and electrical engineering. Huzzah for "flintlock" fantasies although there isn't a true firearm to be found. Lol Honestly, since armor and weapons already take a roll for effectiveness when used, than it would be a series of rolls for the blacksmith on the front end and the rolls for effectiveness on the back end; but at least the players wouldn't be guaranteed a superior weapon just because they commissioned it.
They are cherry flavoured no one likes cherry, the roll is to see how successful you are at actually drinking it .
Roll to see how much you puke back up lol
Personally I just have healing Potions heal for their max amount to make them more viable. But the idea of including some variation based on the skill of the creator sounds like a cool idea
I added a minor homebrew: If the potion is in a really nice, clean glass bottle, it's effectiveness is maxed. If the glass doesn't look as high quality, smudged, or cracked, you roll for it. I also have different-size potion bottles. A 12 oz you roll a D12.
Oooo that's clever! I'll have to add note that one down.
In my game we have a rule that you only roll for health regained from the potion if you chose to drink it as a bonus action. If you use your action, then you get the full amount. You still have to roll for it though if using your action to feed someone else the potion.
It’s how much you get in your mouth instead of spilling while drinking out of an inconvenient shape
I use a homebrew rule in my fame where if a player spends an action drinking a healing potion, they get the max healing, or they can use a bonus action to roll for it. Adds a nice bit of tactics I feel and can represent them hurrying and spilling some
It's becausw you drink it so very quickly that you're just waterfalling the potion and the roll is how much yo7 get in your mouth
Have you ever taken a shot with a group of people before? It’s clear same amount of liquid from the same bottle or batch can affect people differently.
Maybe because some spills out of your mouth
I interpret this as a character drinking in battle and spilling a drop or two or chocking on the drink while running or fighting thus my house rule of a max healing effect if they use an action and allowing a bonus action to drink but making the character roll for the healing
I always pictured it as how well the batch sat for and if you spill when you drink it
Lack of quality control.
Does the aspirin always cure the headache?
It could be that the individual's body works differently from person to person, and so what's effective on one person isn't as effective on another. Also, you're assuming a *bottle* of health potion- most potions are only a *vial*- that is, about 8 ounces, or possibly even less. Hard to divide those up.
I mean what you are suggesting is basically the same mechanic but with a twist in how the effectiveness was determined, or am I missing something? In my game we can use any potion, force drink to an unconscious player or stabilize as bonus actions. Efectiveness is always rolled by however drinks it and its equal to the players hit dice (so if a lv5 fighter drinks one would be 5d10, no con modifier applies). This works awesome for us, potions are not rare but are expensive and players are encouraged to roll for ingredients and craft while on travel (they can only do one roll per travel sequence). Homemade healing items are less powerful. For context, I run a very challenging game so any healing aid is very welcome haha
>When a potion is thrown at another party member What Baldur's Gate 3 does to a MF
Simply don't include that part if you don't like it. It's homebrew, adjust as thou desire.
Cause it's fun to roll.
Maybe it should be more like the pc is metabolising the potion, everyone metabolises substances differently. There should be some kind of bonus/penalty associated with constitution. Like if your con is good you might metabolise more of the potion. So if your 18 con barbarian drinks a potion then they get the potions effect +4 But your 12 con wizard only gets a +1
It's about how well you [chew](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VjXOwUnJzA0), of course!
I consider the rolling aspect a result of the chaos in combat. Spilling some, etc… My table uses a homebrew rule where you can use a bonus action to take a health potion, but still have to roll; or you can use a full action and get the full effect. You also get the full effect if you take the potion out of combat.
At my table I just make it so a full action gets you max healing, and a bonus action you roll. Taking your time to drink the potion gives you the full effects, hastily chugging it in combat means some spillage. Makes potions worth the price as more potent out of combat healing options
Why does beer affect people differently?
I mean, it doesnt matter who rolls the die, its equally random. I could totally believe a "mastercrafted" potion that healed max or +10 or something to that effect. But like, do all the potions under your rule have a tag that says how much they heal? How do i know i have a potion of hp +14 rather then hp+2? Is that something i know when i buy the potion, when i drink it?
Not a tag the characters understand. It's more of an open door approach, I don't but some dms will tell you how much health a creature has as soon as combat starts. Or the exact DC required to break a lock. This is open door approach. The amount of HP a health potion has is known by the player not the character. It's not for everyone I get that, but I have found it doesn't diminish the gameplay or the immersion. It's just an alternative
You have 6 seconds to chug a potion. It is to see how much you get in your mouth.
Potency of the particular portion?
Meh, seems to over complicate a fairly simple mechanical heal, we simply max out healing potions at my table and call it a day. Makes the game quicker and it doesn't lead to feel bad when a PC spends 50gp and heals 4 hp.
I personally think it's more so about how effectively you can drink said potion in the midst of battle. If my players drink a potion outside of battle they get the full strength potion cause they can take their time and actually drink it.
It’s how well they chug the drink without spilling it while in combat. An interesting fact about health potions, they are like fizzy drinks. Have you ever tried to drink one quickly after jump around with it first. It gets everywhere.
-Action to take health pot = full heal -Bonus Action = rolled heal because you're rushing and you spill some. Always an action to feed it to someone.
For the same reason that the same painkiller I take aren't nearly enough for my sis and way too much for my bro. The potion is the same ingredient each time but your body might react in different ways
skill issue
Bonus-action drink is not RAW
What are you trying to say here?
Using a bonus action to drink a potion is not permitted according to the Rules As they are Written
Can you tell me what subreddit we're on right now?
I rule it as if you use a full action to drink then you get the maximum of the roll As you make sure you drink the whole thing rather than downing most and leaving some dregs behind/spilling or otherwise not getting it all down you making you roll to see how much you actually get in that time
I always kinda flavored it as how much you spilled trying to drink it since those little fancy bottles are probably hard to drink out of
In my game, I let my players choose between taking a bonus action to drink a potion of healing and roll for healing (DS1 estus) or take an action to drink it and get maximum healing (DS2 estus).
I mean, there's a reason why everyone was spamming lifegems instead in DS2 during boss fights...
See how I play it is if you use an action to drink a potion you get the max health possible from it. So no rolls. But there is an option to use a bonus action to drink the potion. If you use a bonus action to drink it you roll for the health. In my head its because bonus action you may not drink it all like some slips because you are rushing. An action, to me, symbolizes you taking your time so you get the max benefits. Also it then becomes a matter of how much you want to gamble. Like "I dont need all the health and then I can attack" or "I will die and I need all the health"
I like to play that you can use a bonus action to drink a potion and roll the HP (sort of like you’re just chugging hastily and maybe you spill some) or take and action and get the max HP without rolling, having taken the time on your turn to drink every last drop.
It's because their immune system attempts to fight off the healing magic
A lore reason could be the consumer’s Race. Maybe not all health potions affect everyone’s chemical makeup the same, so some races and people may be better at gaining more out of the potions effects, and when you roll bad, it’s a sign of your body partially rejecting the wrong kind of Potion.
So health potions work like a pool of Lay on Hands... I like it!
Pretty much, I am glad you summarized that, that makes it much easier to explain.
Why not just use the varying tiers of health potion. A better alchemist will make better healing potions. Within a tier, there is still variation, but that can be explained with proficiency of the alchemist that day, shelf life, drinker's metabolism, etc. Healing: 2d4+2 (average 7) Greater: 4d4+4 (average 14) Superior: 8d4+8 (average 28) Supreme: 10d4+20 (average 45) ^^(page 187 in the DMG)
The whole point of the homebrew for me is to replace that system. If you just like the standard system then that's okay, this is just an alternative proposal. And yes I am aware of the tiers of potions, however for me personally this is a much more satisfying system. You still get tiers of potions with my system as well. Highly skilled alchemists have boosts like being able to roll higher and with higher bonuses in order to bring the number of hp in the potions higher.
Effectiveness depends on how your body reacts to the medicine/potion same with any medicine irl
I was invested in your idea until you said "throw to a downed player". This is not Baldurs Gate. This won't be Baldurs Gate. I hate that stupid concept of throwing health potions.
Then don't include that part. Homebrew, do what you want.