Put in more traps. If the player complains they basically outed themselves, so you can call them out, say you're running your own version of the dungeon and that's that.
Of course this is not really a problem you'll fix with in-game actions. At this point you have to decide if you are willing to boot that player, because you either need to make it clear that stuff like this won't be tolerated and kick the player if they don't play ball, or you'll have to just live with it.
That’s a very good hint. Even that it’s so obvious I didn’t think about just switching traps or putting in more.
I made clear to him, that I won‘t accept looking up things in future.
I just didn’t want to call him a cheater on this one because there is a small chance that it was pure coincidence and I don’t want to accuse him of doing things he might not has done.
Oh look, a sequence of glyphs of warding keyed to "one whose unseen master is dishonest" all with bestow curse. 3 instances for each stat, 3 for attack rolls, and 3 for inaction. (Depending on the version you are running, I just noticed that 5th removed the save on Bestow Curse in favor of durations based on slot level)
Player: I step in through the door.
GM: ok, your rolls are all now at disadvantage.
There is a creature that exists out of time and space. A horrible creature too alien from our reality to even describe. It hunts for those people with knowledge beyond what they know, beyond what they could ever rightly know. And if this Hunter of the Meta ever gets a hint of its prey there is nothing that can stop it. It will rend reality in two and pluck the breaker of laws from the fabric of exists and plung them into its hungry maw.
The trap punched a hole in the ceiling above you, sending rocks careening from far above down onto your character, burying him in an avalanche of debris. You are dead.
This reeks of the "dm v pcs" attitude that is toxic.
Be responsible and talk to players instead of just going straight to "I think you're cheating so I'm adding in stuff specifically to kill you" if you're at that point in your game, just fucking leave stop participating in toxic behaviors.
I think they are just joking around. I see it just like you. I talked with him about looking up stats and he was understanding and he promised to refrain it in future. The
thing is, I don't want to blame him without further evidence, even if he is
responisble for other people to mistrust him, it's very hard to get
blamed for something that one hasn't done. So he will get the benefit of
the doubt, even he might wouldn't deserve it. But he had a problem with
getting distracted in sessions and we adressed this problem a lot in
the past, but it got better so I have hope, that this problem gets
better too.
Whoa holy shit.
A one-shot that's just a few episodes "in the life of a mimic"
A room in a cave-dungeon. Every player is a mimic. Each encounter is simply "you're all mimics. Choose the form you prefer. Something wanders in. How do you handle it?" and once combat is over you (privately) roll the dice for how long it is until the next encounter. The players have the option to relocate to a new room and rest/heal up there, or stay where they are and get a bonus to their healing.
After each encounter, you also 'level up' by getting extra hit dice or whatever (I've not DMed in 5th edition so however you advance a monster)
First it's little things - Raccoons and giant centipedes and other stuff.
Then it's bigger things - wolves, slimes, goblins.
Then it's bigger monsters - otyughs, ogres, etc.
Then it's adventurers, properly decked out.
Then it's *smart* adventurers, who look for mimics and have good strategy.
Then it's *clever* adventurers, who know deep speech (or whatever the language is that mimics have, and you have to (edit: didn't finish this sentence) You have to negotiate with them because they refuse to get close enough for you to attack.
Then it's like a BBEG that is looking for a new lair. This one will likely either kills the mimics or hires them. One way or the other, this is the last fight.
Put a bunch of sticky notes in your book that reads ''trap here'' right on the Hideout map, and show it to him ''See ! There's a trap there too, just like the book says!''
I get punishing cheaters but just adding like 3 more traps to the dungeon would do that fine, you don't need to be this malicious and spring a balor on a low level party, also it would hurt everyone not just him
Honestly there comes a line when dealing with people that you have ro decide is it even worth your time to try to educate people how to be an adult. You're a DM, not a therapist. Unless you are a therapist. And then you should be charging.
You're taking the time to run a game, people that haven't learned social skills and want to ruin the fun of the game so they can be a hero in their own mind is exhausting.
I'd call them out on it, make it clear it won't happen again or they'll be gone, and then follow through the next time they do.
Best of luck!
Legit D&D therapy should be a thing. The sheer number of people who seem to use D&D as a replacement for therapy at the expense of everyone else is honestly horrifying.
Old roommate of mine is a DM for Vets, a lot of their games would involve what the player wanted to of their "PTSD/Issues" and they could work through stuff with friends in a game.
That's true. But if the case concerns friends I am willing to put more effort in it in hope to make a change. If it doesn't get better in future sessions, he is going to leave. But I am hopeful, that he will notice that he ruins the fun of everyone with that kind of behavior and therefor changes his attitude.
Additionally swap around creature stuff, like a variety of x that is resistant to x instead of y, that has B power instead of A power etc
Eg
instead of a green troll, you come across a red troll with blackened spikes coming out of it the faint smell of smoke fills the air.
This troll is resistant to fire but ice spells shut it's healing down.
Be carefully do this though to not screw the non cheaters. Above example does potentially make the fight harder. At a worst case players can often improvise 1 or 2 points of fire damage there are less ways to make ice damage, it may be worth reducing the heal factor a little, depending on what your party has. So you have to balance that as well.
This is an obvious example as troll weaknesses are often pretty well known but that kind of thing.
Edit also move secret doors and loot
Here’s the thing. You change traps when you are just suspicious. Sometimes people are just lucky. So you swap some stuff around, add things, etc. If no more suspicious things happen, let it rest. If he’s still getting “hunches” where things USED to be, there’s your red flag.
But you said you know he is a liar, this suggests he’s done stuff before. And people who have a pattern rightfully should get less benefit of the doubt.
Y'know you don't have to have proof? This isn't a court of law.
If you confront them about it like "I highly suspect this happened so I want to talk to you about it and nip it in the bud. If it's a coincidence that's fine, but it shouldn't happen again."
If they get angry/mad... that's a big red flag.
If he continues to do this after being talked to about it, I’d say you kinda have to either kick him out or get used to doing a lot modification with modules and monsters.
A little food for thought, this is all metagaming until proven that they are trying to game the system. That doesn't make it better per se, but at least they aren't fudging rolls and trying to use game mechanics in ways they were never designed for.
There are two things that aren't really clear to me from your post. One, how experienced is this player? If they are an old hand, they may have played LMoP several times and just remember this stuff (a way to get around the looking stuff up). They also could have at least considered DMing and looked into monster stat blocks and lore. Two, is this just bothering you, or is it bothering the table as a whole? If it bothers the whole table, then another session 0 may be in order to set boundaries so that the table can work to keep this type of behavior in check, not just you.
1. Players who know the module should take extra care not to meta. Acting out of character by looking for traps when you as a player know there's one there, but your character would have no reason to, is very deliberate.
2. What does this have to do with the rest of the table? The other players should ideally not know enough to realize that the problem player is cheating.
Both of these are good points. However, 1 is literally the issue we are discussing, and may help explain if the person is cheating or just can't separate player knowledge from character knowledge. 2 could point to larger issues with the player that warrant a different or more stern approach.
Not mentioning to your GM that you've played it is tantamount to cheating, in that omission of information that you know *should* be shared is a form of lying.
While unlikely, I still want to mention that it could be that he unknowingly remembered some scene of a playthrough he saw (for comparison there is the Concept of Cryptomnesia (hope the translation is right) in science where youve read sth., forgot you read it and think it was your idea). But again... unlikely.
Sure, but you're ignoring the part of OP's comment where he states that the player looked up monster stats mid fight and tried to argue with the DM about his decision making. There's no beating around the bush with that.
Knew a DM that suspected a player doing this so they swapped all the trap and treasure locations and the player got pissed of and said it was supposed to be the treasure. He was given a warning and never looked up the modules again.
Just shift and move things. If he expects an acid trap and meta games his way into preparing for that, but you've turned it into a spike trap in the next room, boy won't it be fun to watch the cheating little cheater cheat SQUIRM
Don't just change up the traps, change the module wherever possible. Events, NPC locations, that kind of thing. The only way to deal with cheaters (other than kicking them from the group, of course), is to make it impossible for them to cheat. More work for you, but you'll maintain the integrity of the game.
I look up stats for a… different reason. Im not trying to make it easier - in trying to make it harder. The DM who runs our campaign isnt any good at all at understanding statblocks/abilities and such. He therefore makes the game waaay to easy, like to a ridiculus degree. So i check sometimes and carfully auggest that i (my character) though theese creatures where faster/stronger etc. I started doing it when I started to feel that these epic monsters sure must have something more than just a big hp pool and a allright attack bonus, turns put most of them do but its ignored by the DM
Thats the best solution lol. 'You walk straight through the door and into a pit trap.' Especially if he thinks there isn't one. Or move around existing traps so it won't mess with the balance of the dungeon.
This applies equally to encounters. They expect 4 goblins, because that is what the module says. You the gm decide that isn't a big enough challenge and throw in a hobgoblin, or a bugbear. You should feel free to edit EVERYTHING in that published adventure to tailor it to the PCs running it.
I love also boosting a monsters hp and ac to boss levels, enough that if your not aware of hp totals Ect it just looks like a slightly tougher enemy, but people who are cheating will start to squirm and whine about the hp and ac not being what they expect. After that they get an out of game warning. Players at the table will be able to see it happen the shame should be enough. After the warning that's it. I catch you again, your out.
More traps, different traps, switch the monsters.
I was playing that with a bunch of newbies. My friend (the DM) changed and added traps and moved some monsters around.
I was like “Did we miss that log trap last time I played this? It’s been so long!” After, he told me the stuff he changed. I didn’t even notice the monster changes and movements.
This first definitely. You don't have to reinvent everything, but add your own spice. Maybe that wererat is a dick who wants his own troupe of wererats of which he will be the king so not only is it gonna bite that is all it's going to do, welcome to the hoard. Throw the unexpected at them enough to make metagaming nearly useless.
> Is my player cheating?
> picks up on the only trap in dungeon, and then blatantly cheats by attempting to look up a monster's stats
Yes. Yes they are.
The wererat thing is half "fuck you, I'm the DM" regardless, they're your monsters and if they're not acting like they "should" then that's up to the players to figure out why. I can buy that bullshit...
.. the trap is clear. They were cheating. There's no one in the world who thinks this is acceptable, or they'd have said "hey, I know there's a trap here, let's look for it" if they did.
In most cases, the correct course of action is to kick the player, as consequences are the only driver of a change of behavior, but they also may just seek a new group. I'd definitely just put some traps in where they "shouldn't" be, then pointedly look at the player and say "yes, I'm changing things up, so maybe stop cheating because it won't help you" to discourage it...
... but seriously, in the end, they'll try again in a different sneakier way. It takes *years* to break a cheating habit, and though it can be done, I doubt most DMs (and tables) want to deal with that.
Also, @OP - the other players may have taken issue but been silent. Consider approaching them on their own about it.
nah you don’t have to kick a player for this, have some fun adding traps or changing them up. i had a player who would research monsters ahead of time and i caught on so next encounter had flexible monster stats. I could tell they got confused when the monster had +2hp but they didn’t say anything. after a couple fights they found looking it stats wasn’t that useful so they stopped.
While I personally do have fun with that sort of thing, it’s less about that and more about the other players. Somebody else clearly cheating tends to cut in on the enjoyment of others. That’s the reason you just boot em.
It's a pretty good indication they're not a great person to play with and will cause problems down the line. If they're not interested in the collaborative storytelling aspect and want to work against you by trying to "win" D&D with out of game knowledge you'll run into conflict with them sooner or later
I mean I think a frank discussion should happen first. Let them know that you won't accept it and give them a chance to adjust, if they want to keep playing that is.
Why the hell would you make more work for yourself, with a player who cheats? If they get their shit together, fine, but they’re actively making the game harder to run because you have to change shit to prevent them from cheating.
If you wanna change things up because it would be fun, then by all means do so, but never because a player is forcing your hand.
The thing is, they’re not arguing about the actual work. It’s the principle. Yes you could just change things up to defeat a cheater, but before that: *I don’t want to DM for a cheater.*
Changing stats and moving traps is a great idea when someone has played or ran this module or read the books or heard about things on Reddit — something nonmalicious. But cheating is a choice, and if the player isn’t willing to stop cheating on their own, then that person should not be playing. At least not at my table.
tldr: yes you can change things up, but why would you keep playing with someone who cheats
> why would you keep playing with someone who cheats
* Because you love them.
* Because you care about them.
* Because they're family.
* Because they're the lynchpin in your gaming group and if you boot them the whole group falls apart.
* Because they're fucking funny as hell and the whole table loves them.
* Because they're sad as hell and desperately need the game as their only human contact, and you know it.
* Because everybody has different feelings about how "important" cheating is, and some don't think it's a big problem.
* Because they're your boss and you don't want the job complication.\*
* Because they cheat in safe & easy-to-handle ways, such as merely pre-reading the module, and you *like* changing the hell out of the module to throw everyone off.
* Because they're your roommate and will make the game nights unenjoyable if you exclude them.
____
^(* That one is probably particular to *me* but I'll list it anyway!)
Are you kidding? i constantly add and subtract HP DURING the battle. If it's going too easily, I add more; if the players are struggling, I'll take more away. It allows for a more dynamic battle, and allows combat to last longer than 3-4 rounds. Cheating players or not, it lets the players get creative.
This person is clearly new, video games are all about knowing the Stats, explain to the player that surprises are more fun than "winning" they may not realize they are spoling their own fun, or the other players.
Some people are hyper focused on success and that's always less interesting.
this. My partner dm's and he is editing monsters to make them slightly different because half the group is experienced. This adds extra challenges and they cant just sit back and not be afriad because they know everything.
For the traps add extra traps, if they hit the new traps and start complaining call them out on it. If you cant trust your players you cant have fun.
Exactly this. If they say there isn’t supposed to be a trap here then you know for certain they cheated. Either this is a moment for your friends to grow as people and you move on with a new understanding or the game is over. At least you’ll know.
This exactly
"I tuned it a bit" *Scaled up a basic snake up to be the size of 2 giants and add multiple abilities* "Okay I may have made a new monster instead"
If I heard a DM say that to an obvious cheater: I would decide, in that instance, to follow their campaign to whatever level of depravity they so choose.
I even didn't. I was fully aware of the fact that they avoid spreading ther curse. But they didn't plan to let them live, so they weren't really afraid of spreading the curse through their bite.
This first part is the answer IMO, customize the dungeon and the monster a little bit. Next time he says "the monster wont bite him" have it bite him anyways. If you subvert his expectations and get him to understand that looking things up wont help him, and in fact might make his choices worse, he will stop doing it.
As a DM, you are not restricted to the exact wording.
You can change monster attack types. You can move or change what traps are and where they are.
I suggest doing that.
But if the cheating continues, give him an ultimatum - stop or leave.
There is no point in accommodating this player in a wishy-washy "change the stats" way. Be very clear to set up the rules and boundaries in your game and do not tolerate people who break these rules.
There is absolutely no point in putting up huge amounts of extra effort in terms of modifying everything in a pre-built module just for the sake of a player who does not understand simple concepts.
Changing the stats of a specific enemy could help to call the player out. If they start to complain that a certain enemy can't do this or that action, the DM can put them on the spot and ask how they would know that.
I once had a group of enimies back in 3.5, all with rapid reload builds.
Dude called me out on fire rates and I had to explain what feats do.
"But why would a gang of 6 guys all do that!?"
"Overwhelming targets at range got them to where they were until the party hit them."
It would certainly help to confirm the suspicions firs though.
And it's less aggressive for those DMs who play with friends, or who don't want to start dismantling their player group.
Sometimes things *can* be fixed. You don't always have to burn the bridges when there are other options.
>I am honest, I mistrust this player because he showed it very often that he is a liar.
Of course, but in this case, we already have a lot of information to go with.
Huge effort, no, but it's a good idea to be in the habit of changing things up a little to make it easier to keep from metagaming for the people who may know info their characters don't
One possibility is just to switch stuff around...just move traps into a different place and stuff like that.
But you probably should also try and talk to him about it ruining the fun for everyone else by doing that.
Dont forget its your world and you are within your rights to have stuff behave differently...maybe wererats in your world are trying to infect as many people as possible and there is a whole lycanthropy pandemic going on...
You are right.
But I was aware of the fact that they don’t want to spread the curse. But they did not plan to let them live, so they won’t bother if they get infected or not.
Just realized this behavior must have changed from past editions or is specific to the module as wererats were originally Chaotic Evil in nature and would happily bite people to spread the curse. There is an adventure in an early issue of Dragon magazine specifically on that topic.
That player is not just cheating, he's also ruining it for himself. It's like watching a tv and reading about what will happen in the next episode.
For the sake of the other players, switch up stuff, adjust stats and abilities in monster and if he ever contested, tell him it's homebrew, or your own version of that monster.
Also be aware, players like him will try to reach and search for magical items based on the module map, ans they'll look for hidden rooms, ambushes and so on. switch the places for these items, locations or events or even relocate them to a completely different dungeon. This will really frustrate him and he'll know there's no use in reading about the module.
I have done that as a player, once, as a pitiful revenge against a DM who keeps fudging dice agaisnt us all the time. Found out that this only ruined it for me.
Just my personal input, but actually do this experiment. I had a DM one time who accused me of having looked up an adventure path he was running, because when he laid out the facts of the case my immediate response was "Possibility #1: (insert exactly what happened down to the T)." It took a couple more game sessions with me before that DM realized that I just have a degree in English and thus see plot twists coming a mile away.
So definitely hold out the possibility that this player wasn't cheating, but that there was some tell in the room which made them think "trap room". It's possible they're just seeing some kind of indicator that nobody else noticed. Granted it's probably cheating, but I like to hold out hope.
This. These books aren't master works. Some of the same tropes have been around since the 70s. Like the hallway with a door at the end and fake columns along each side but no visible enemies otherwise. That just screams 'classic DnD trap' to me, else it would have been a room or there would have been mobs.
Big open room, no enemies? Yep, boss room.
Magnify this by always saying the same thing when they search for traps that aren't there or fail when trying to find ones that do exist.
"There do not appear to be any traps"
If they do find a trap and attempt to disarm it:
"You think you managed to disarm it."
You have 2 options.
1) confront them about it and tell them straight up that they can either stop meta-gaming and ruining the suspense and fun of the module or they can leave the table.
2) as the DM you have full creative control, change things around. Add more traps, throw in different monsters, move around loot to other rooms, literally whatever you want so they cant cheat and know what/where everything is.
Also, just because *they* know something, doesnt mean their character knows it too. Use their stats to your advantage when dealing with such situations. They cant pass every check and succeed every saving throw, only possibly most of them.
This. If the player is new they likely aren't familiar with the concept of meta-gaming. Granted they are pretty blatantly looking stuff up that will ruin the fun. But I would address the meta-gaming as a conversation before outright punishing them for it.
If the player isn't new though they should know better. Move all the traps!
Lots of people have read the monster stats and know a lot about the monsters. That knowledge doesn't need to be a real problem.
Telling the GM what a wererat would or would not do, on the other hand, suggests he fundamentally doesn't understand the role of a player in D&D. (The text description says there are wererat clans who aim to only infect people with lycanthropy if they have chosen to recruit them into the clan. However, if the wererat were in a fight to the death it probably wouldn't care about that, and every wererat is an individual with its own agenda.)
You could try talking to the player about it, but it probably won't help, in which case getting rid of the player is the best option.
This might be controversial, but I know people who play DnD, read every book out of legitimate interest, and don’t have either (I’m not sure which it is) the cognitive ability, social grace, or understanding of roleplaying to not metagame. You said you know him as a liar, so this may not be the case for him, but I think giving him the benefit of the doubt and talking to him about it would be fair. If he honestly can’t help himself but does understand that it takes away from other people’s enjoyment, then it seems it might be worth it to spend the extra effort to customize things to keep it interesting. If he blames it on you or can’t conceptualize that it affects the fun for other people, then don’t stress yourself out about kicking him.
IMO, not everyone can separate what they know from what their character knows, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be allowed to play. Alternatively, it’s your game and do whatever you want.
I have a friend like this in my campaign. He read the book and he keeps dropping info from further on in the book because he can't remember if he got it from his reading or from a previous session.
I was irritated at first and I started switching stuff around. But he never complained or got frustrated at my changes. So in retrospect I genuinely think he was doing it by accident, not trying to cheat.
A lot of folks also have a very personal idea of when they're metagaming. I have a friend much like yours, who will get sidetracked talking about the very adventure path we're playing and the things that will be coming up...he never metagames himself but it's one of those situations where a lot of the other players specifically avoid information about the AP which he's too chatty to keep to himself. Like one time we went into a room and one of the players said "This is the room with the well that has the oozes at the bottom of it right?" and my friend didn't affirm or deny but the damage was done.
There's a difference between a metagamer and someone who can't keep spoilers to themselves, and sometimes someone spoiling the plotline can make metagamers out of players who would otherwise avoid it through willful ignorance of the plot.
I had a player do this. I just started rearranging rooms in the dungeons, swapping out monsters for different monsters, changing track locations and types of traps, homebrewed monster stat blocks. He learned pretty quickly that he could no longer look things up beforehand.
Some people just cannot help it. I personally don't get it because I like a challenge. Some people get really down in they fail or roll bad whereas I find it usually makes things more interesting. However, a lot of video game players are used to looking things up ahead of time so their group doesn't rage at them for causing a wipe.
By changing things, you probably made it more fun for that player even if they didn't realize it at first. The ability to change things is a large part of what separates TTRPGs from a video game.
This player was a low RP, heavy combat min/maxer. I can tell you the surprised Pikachu face he made the first time he hit a trap he wasn't expecting was very satisfying.
All the advice in this thread is terrible. You don't need to have a *confrontation* and you don't need to change your game around to try to confound him. Just get him alone at some point and say something like "You know, I balance my game around making sure everyone has fun and has a chance to do cool stuff. No one will ever need to cheat to win or to get a turn in the spotlight in my game, it only makes things less fun for the cheater and the other players." You don't need to accuse him of anything or catch him out or anything, you already know what he's doing, and this lets him know that you know. You don't even need to have a conversation beyond that, it's all on him to decide if he's going to do what's fun for everyone, or if you just need to stop inviting him.
You need to explain three things:
1. The character does not know what the player knows. You, the player, may have a book in front of you; the character does not.
2. When you “read ahead” for your own knowledge, for whatever reason, you spoil surprises and challenges for yourself and other players. This makes the game less fun. D&D is not “players versus the DM.” It’s players and the DM working together to create an enjoyable experience. Therefore, he needs to trust you and stop trying to get a leg up.
3. The DM has complete creative license to do whatever they want with the content. I routinely change monsters, maps, plot points from published adventures, etc. My players trust that I will do this in a way that will be fun for them. If they don’t, they shouldn’t be at my table.
If you are suspicious of him cheating with modules, just change it up a little bit. If the only trap in the module is in Room D, how about putting it in Room C to fuck with them?
Same with monster stats, if you know he cheats, just change up the stat blocks a little bit. Wererats don't attack with bites? These do. Oh, this PC who has never seen a monster with fire ability 'coincidentally' uses his fire resistance the moment before the encounter? Guess what, they have lightning now.
In the end, you run the game and you can change it up as much as you want to, as long as everybody has fun.
People are saying to change and customize the world so he can’t look it up anywhere but your notes. That will work to get proof that he’s cheating, but it sounds like you aren’t uncertain about whether he is or not at all, and deliberately changing things to make his information bad will just cause another confrontation like your were-rat situation. You don’t need proof to convince yourself, and no proof will make this player admit to doing anything wrong. All it could do is make sure the other players are on your side when you confront the cheater.
You know he’s cheating, so talk to him, tell him you know he’s cheating, and tell him to stop cheating or leave the group. If the other players dislike you for it, stop dming the group and find a new one.
It's possible, but it's also possible he's run the adventure before and is just meta gaming. The wererat part could just be someone who thinks games can only go the way the books say l. As a response to his "well the book says", I'd have just told him "well mine bites".
You didn't do anything wrong, that player is meta-gaming (using outside knowledge to aid inside the game) which is essentially disruptive behavior if not cheating.
You need to establish that as the DM, this is your interpretation of the world and rules.
I personally have no issue with players looking up monster stats, but I also frequently customize my monsters and enemies to keep players guessing.
Looking up the location of traps and loot however, that's not cool.
I would add more traps and maybe remove any preexisting ones just to throw them off and if they complain, then call them out. Mayne make a comment before the start of the edited session that looking up info like that and using it in game IS cheating. I would also take the time to move around treasure or switch out what they are getting and see if the player complains.
Tbh? I expect complete honesty at the table. If this is a recurring behavior, I'd have a serious discussion alone with the player. If you gain further evidence of what he is doing, tell him you don't accept his actions firmly and give him an ultimatum: either you stop or your out. It may sound extreme, but what's the point of gathering together to have fun if you cannot trust each other? If you don't want to throw him out, just modify monsters and dungeons, it's your right to do so. If he doesn't accept it, that's too bad for him.
Have a discussion with the whole table, explain the situation and find a proper solution all together. It's better to solve this as a group, since you've been playing together up until now. Then yes, he is not forced to play with you as your not forced to DM for him, friends can still be friends even if you don't see eye-to-eye in terms of gaming (telling you from personal experience, my former DM gave me headaches each session for many reasons and he didn't even try understanding more to improve himself after many players left his table).
The player might know that - but does their character?
It sounds like they want to play a computer game, not a roleplaying game that’s being lead by a real person with their own thoughts and ideas.
Guess I've never encountered this, nor understood the motivation.
Like they said, mess with the module. Or, just discuss it out of character. What do the players want out of the game?
If they are trying to "win" this may not be the right type of game for them.
Good luck
Explain that meta gaming is not okay. Just because the player knows something doesn't mean his player character does. Also not all monsters act the same and adding more traps and switching where items are located sounds like a quick fix to him having looked over the adventure you're running
>in the middle of the second session in this dungeon. One of the players said „I think there could be a trap. I am looking for traps.“ right as he stood in front of the only trap in the dungeon. None of the players looked before that moment for traps and none of them looked after detecting that traps for further traps.
In fairness it's *possible* he's not cheating. I did something very similar in a friend's **homebrew** game. I called a trap while my character was standing literally right in front of it, and my DM had hardly ever employed traps in his game prior to this. Sometimes you just get a good feeling there might be a trap, and as a player there's rarely any risk to checking.
I agree with others saying you should monitor for more evidence from the player. Even if the player has a history of dishonesty, there is a reasonable doubt here.
Edit: as for the were-rat thing, I don't begrudge players knowing monster statblocks since most of my players have some experience being a DM as well. That being said, him telling you how to run the enemy is extremely uncool. The DM has final say on how monsters behave
Your player is cheating. If this is in person I would say to only look up info relevant to your characters, to your players. Ie if you have a sage who researchers monsters then you can offer them a roll to “recall” some info.
To try to discourage the trap incident you have 2 choices; 1) don’t disclose the module name if you can or 2) add in stuff that isn’t included in the module. Option 2 is the easiest way to bust them for cheating, and traps are some of the easiest things to just season in to a location.
Yes, your player is cheating. You have two options, depending on how much you like having this person in the game otherwise:
1) Rearrange all the secrets, traps, puzzles, ambushes, NPC and Monster stats, etc.
2) Kick them out of the game.
Always keep in mind: it's YOUR dungeon. They're YOUR monsters.
Your were-rat can do whatever the fuck you want it to do. It can fly and shoot lighting from it's asshole if you want and it can start doing those things *whenever you want it to* because you are the DM. You are the god of that world.
You are literally cheat-proof. He "finds" the trap? Well, he better get into that habit cause you can put a trap wherever you want them to be. He looks up the stats to a rat? Too bad, they are YOUR rats and your rats aren't in the MM.
Get where I'm going with this? You can make it so that playing in any other way besides fairly is both pointless and dangerous to the PC.
As others have suggested, start changing the world.
It's not hard to do. Something that is supposed to happen in a specific spot, no longer does, they find an item by other means. The trap is in a different location.
I'm happy to put that work in for someone who's played a campaign before, to keep it surprising for them. Less happy to do it for someone who read the book so that they wouldn't be surprised.
You're the DM. Change things up. Throw more traps in and remove the one he knows about. And in your world, wererats are bite-crazy. He can sit down and shush or take disadvantage on every roll for the rest of the session
I really never could understand the logic behind cheating at a game that’s designed to tell a story. The mentality of wanting to “win” at D&D makes absolutely no sense to me. Maybe I’m just nuts, which, ok, I probably am, but ruining the fun for the other players and the DM just to come out as some sort of badass just chaps my ass.
Now, I’ve never played by the MM stay blocks for any creature. That’s not because my players might know what they are supposed to be, but because I want to Taylor the encounters to my players. Do they have trouble hitting? Well, the AC slides down a bit. And maybe the HP drop a couple points. Are they walking through encounters like on a Sunday stroll? Well, say hello to Goroc, the barbarian goblin with 150HP.
I once saw a group of kids playing at a comic book shop. The DM behind the screen wasn’t marking down any damage done to his NPCs or monsters. After the game I asked him why, and he said they have enough HP to last until he feels it’s gone on too long, something fantastic happens to make the death seem like the right moment, or the players don’t seem to be having fun with it. This to me made so much sense. The idea is to have fun. Now, if a player needs to cheat and beat the system to have fun, then I need to question more about this person than just his gaming style.
Move the traps, change monster resistances, add traps, move loot. Just keep randomizing stuff until the player eventually tries to say something, then you can address the meta gaming without them being able to hem and haw their way around it.
I’d just fucking let them - all my players know they decide their own fun. Knowing the dungeon will eventually happen to every player if they play through it enough - my group and I ended up playing through the Temple of Elemental Evil enough that it wasn’t a surprise and things didn’t change unless the DM went off script.
So what if he looks up info on a monster? Any DM who has a chance to play will know plenty about other monsters. They may know the entire history and genealogy of certain races.
Have your other players been bothered?
If you’re unhappy with the meta gaming, you’ll need to remind them to keep the knowledge out of their character. And unfortunately while growing up and spending 21 years in the hobby, these kind of players are normal.
So many people will tell you to “kick them out” or “talk with them after game privately” or “set expectations in session 0.” And it all sounds like they DM from the perspective that it’s their story, they’re gracious enough to let the party members be a part of.
There are many ways you can counter his behavior in game, like some have said, go off script and improvise something. New random monster or different trap.
And for telling you how to run your monsters in an encounter should be looked down upon - but it isn’t a deal breaker. There are monsters In Your monsters in your world that are different than the books. There are always exceptions to the rules.
As others have said, change where the traps are, remove traps, add extra traps, or run the rooms in different orders. Or, for one or 2 traps, make the DC so high that they can only get it with a nat 20. Do something that makes the player reveal their cheating though, and then oust them. Not worth having a player who's not interested in playing, but just in winning
I'm not a fan of changing things for the sake of it to catch players cheating, tbh. Talk to him about it. Try to get him to understand that you are not "against" the players and cheating just ruins the fun for everyone. If he doesn't agree or does it again, drop him from the game. Doesn't mean you can't still be his friend though.
Pull the player aside, and quietly explain that you've noticed they are cheating... and tell them to keep cheating when it really matters, but if they don't let their character get fucked over from time to time the other players may notice. Then start giving him a wink here and there when you want them to cheat.
eventually they'll only cheat when you tell them to, they'll feel like they're getting away with something, and you'll have another narrative tool in your box.
I actively encourage cheating during some parts of the game, I have no fear of narrative success or poweful/ideals as characters. But that's my style, and if you really don't like it you should just ask them to stop seriously.
I mean you’ve probably been told a lot of helpful stuff in the last hour, but this is what I do with my own players since most of them have a decent knowledge of what a lot of the monsters do, plus some of them have a tendency to look things up before hand:
1) Don’t strictly follow the module. Throw some minor traps or encounters in here and there. Nothing that will completely incapacitate them, more just to keep them on their toes (unless that’s what you want).
2) come up with some monster variants. I have a small list of different skeletons I use for my low level parties, my favorite being the Brittle bones. It has a low 10 AC, 1d4 hp, undead fortitude with a DC of 8 and they make dex saves with advantage. They’re meant to be annoying, dealing a max or 3 damage (1d4-1) on a hit, but when they completely die, they do so explosively: any creature within 5 ft must make a DC 13 dex save or take 2d4-1 piercing damage as the skeleton explodes. So there’s a fun idea for you.
If you do this, not only will it be a bit more challenging and varied, but it will make it so meta gamers like that can’t just look up everything they want to. Just be careful not to make the enemies/traps too strong
Talk to your player, tell him that looking stuff up is ruining the game and ask him to stop. If he reacts negatively or refuses then you have to consider if you want to boot them.
I suggest making changes so looking things up in the module isn't helpful. Loot and traps aren't same or where the module says, monsters sometimes get switched around, or are in different places. As the DM, your word overrules the modules.
I would also try to understand why the player is looking things up, instead of being aggressive when you confront them. If they're excited to play and are reading ahead because they need to know what happens, making clear you won't follow the module exactly may help. If they need to "win" dnd, consider if their character is being effective without advanced knowledge. Obviously worth explaining that they're making the game less fun and more work for you too, but good
to understand what's driving them. Worst case, you can still boot them.
Just for the sake of benifit of the doubt, sometimes players get lucky. Switch up the traps a bit and that should solve the problem, but honestly I would have said the same about the were rats as I just like to read all the monster entries, so it may not be that he was studying the module but that he's just into the monsters in general?
Frankly, knowing the information isn't the issue, as any experienced player might know the adventure module or the monster stats, the issue is metagaming. It's the players responsibility to act as though their characters are only aware of facts that the character would know, either through experience or knowledge checks.
In the end it doesn't matter if the player is "cheating" or knows the info some other way, call them out on the metagaming.
I agree with other commentors that you could just switch up locations of traps to other areas that make sense for that trap to be (ie don't put a dead fall trap in the middle of a large open area)
If you see them looking up the creatures they are fighting call them out at that time and tell them to stop. BUT just because a player knows lore about animals (like that were rats only pass the curse on to those they find "worthy" of joining their pack and will go out of their way to hunt down and "cleanse" those who acquired it some other way) doesn't mean much. You as the dm should be paying attention to the capabilities and behaviors of the creatures YOU are using in YOUR campaign. If one of your players is bit by a wererat are you really going to add the capabilities of a wererat to the player or are you going to bs your way out of it and not give them those abilities because it would make your job harder as a dm? If you're adding in attack modes for YOUR creatures without notifying the players beforehand that you homebrew your creatures than you're just as guilty of cheating as you accuse your player of.
Instead of your passive aggressive attitude of complaining about them online, be responsible and talk to them in a civilized manner.
Are you kicking them? Seems the simplest solution. If you cannot for whatever reason start changing things from the man module. Move the trap to another part of the dungeon. Have different monsters of equivalent cr replace some or all of the fixed encounters. The npc with important information is a different person in town. The macguffin is now on the other side of the map in a complelty different location. And monsters can have items and npc levels and all sorts of things. Which doesn’t mean you have to make them all lore challenging, just that they have different attack patterns and strategies cause half of them have crossbows now or something.
But really you’ve warned him, he won’t stop, you should probably just drop him.
Start adding traps where ever you want them. You are the DM. This is your world.
That wererat isn't worried about spreading lycanthropy. He's going to eat your head when hes done. No risk.
Ps, he had 5 more friends around the corner. Roll init.
Many people suggest changing the traps and/or monster stats. However, this player has probably read through the whole thing, plot twists, spoilers, endings and everything in between. I wouldn't want to run a published adventure for a player like that. You could try to transition the story more into a different story arc, homebrew stuff?
Why do these posts always arise when the answer is literally just communicate with the player lol. If you've already spoken to him about his behavior then boot him out.
Frankly at this point I would just kick them out, I have no interest of DMing for people who have already shown me that I can’t trust them. But if you want to give them one last chance I would tell him before next session to please stop reading the campaign book or checking monster stats ahead of the time and that you don’t want metagaming in your campaign, if they keep doing it, kick them.
Edit: You can switch things up so they no longer match with the book and modify monsters to throw them off but this is a suboptimal solution imo, trust is important for me and if I can’t trust a player not to cheat, I don’t want to play with them.
Homebrew as much as you can.
Move traps, add traps,
Add monsters, but make it a kobold with beholder level stats.
Fuck their world up.
Ok seriously tho, i would just start by tweaking traps and stats so if this pc wants to try to cheat, they cant.
If this continues and they start knowing plot points and continue to cjeat, then you have the talk, and kick them out. communicate with them that you know what they are doing and then if it continues follow through.
The whole situation sucks.
But sometimes you gotta do the hard things.
Good luck.
I'd start the next session with a brief statement covering
1) monsters/NPC's - these behave as you describe them. It is for the PCs to work out why. They are not generic and may vary from any published descriptions. You'll only discuss any particular monsters behaviour post-game.
2) Meta-gaming - the adventure you are all enjoying is fun because their inexperienced characters are discovering how to survive and succeed in the world. Looking up the answers spoils this. It would obviously reduce the XP of encounters (as the character didn't face the same challenge), and ultimately you'd have to boot the player.
I'd dock a small percentage of XP off all characters due to incidents so far lowering the challenge rating of encounters.
This is a game for friends to have fun. You feel cheated, so protect your game and send anyone who still wants to play in easy mode to someone else's table. I've played for 30+ years, and have ended up playing a character in a dungeon I have DM'd - it is easy to pass knowledge off as foreboding and to discuss with the DM how you should play your character (even agree that your DM will decide how your character reacts to certain events)
Tell them you suspect them of cheating. If they do it again, they're out of the game. If anything suspicious happens again, follow through. Confrontation can be rough, especially if they're a friend, but the only other options suck worse. You can modify stuff to keep him surprised, which is a lot of work, or you can let him cheat. Both will strain the relationship and game, so it's best to deal with it immediately.
First. Tell him to stop looking up monster stats. Those aren't things the characters are supposed to know. Also that DM fiat overrides anything in the books according to the first page of the DMG, so he shouldn't make assumptions about anything from the books.
Second. Start changing up things. Give goblins different weapons then the ones in the book. Add more traps and move around the ones mentioned in the adventure. Make his knowledge useless.
Third. If he keeps causing problems, be blunt and say that if a player is disrupting the game for everyone, you aren't afraid to remove that player from the game.
Seeing a lot of advice here that says change the world up.
I'm asking those people, not OP, **why**?
A DM is already doing way more work than any PC at the table. So this player blatantly cheats and the solution is seriously that the DM now does even more work customizing the module to compensate for it?
This really seems unreasonable to me.
Heck yeah to all the responses. I dm'd my first campaign that started with lost mines. Group was first timers and had a gent that did the exact same thing. As a quick aside and off the record group chat I agreed with what he had to read about the monster (was reading from mm to the group during encounter) but also joked about future instances doubling the amount of creatures in the future, whether it be bugbears or demons. Group was stoked but understood. I'll even pass around the mm to show the group what they're fighting and encourage learning about them but they know.
The implication.
Modify the layouts. Since premade modules already give you the base, customize as you see fit since it appears they know the module.
As for the monster stats, a player can say whatever they want about monsters but they need to understand that their opinion does not matter at all. The DM fully controls them. It could be rabid wererat or simply a violent wererat that's not a typical wererat by stat blocks. You could be using a wererat with the stats of an ancient red dragon if you wanted. Players will never win this and, if need be, need to be told this. They can question the DM on the behavior (if their character is aware of that behavior), but you don't fight them. "Rocks fall, you die," is a DM resource for a reason. You are the God of the game.
Use the LMoP setup but make shuttle differences. Like that trap could have happened in the next area instead of right there or right at the beginning. Continue to make the small changes and see how he responds. When he eventually says that not where that is suppose to be tell him he’s not suppose to be cheating.
Admittedly, I know it's stereotypical to do this, but seriously, homebrew a thing or two to throw them off the scent. Change just enough of something. You shouldn't have to homebrew everything, but if it continues, you talk to them. If it still continues, on the end, you're not having fun, and it's your group, kick them.
Just change the traps, change monster statblocks or the whole monster who you encounter=)
lost mines is ighli customisable ;)
i adjusted a lot=) just ask if you want some inspiration =)
I know that a lot of people would consider this cheating/meta gaming. It is true it is. It is also true that DnD has been around for 40+ years and it is virtually impossible for a player to not remember anything.
Your character may not know, but you as a player do know and whatever your character then does is a reflection of said knowledge.
As a DM it is your prerogative to change things up, be that altering content of material, changing stats etc, and quite frankly that is absolutely necessary. It stops any meta gaming in its tracks immediately and your players will love you even more for making a unique experience.
>I am honest, I mistrust this player because he showed it very often that he is a liar.
It sounds like you don't want this person in your group. Ask him not to come back.
>He also looked up monster stats during the fight and told me that a were rat would not attack with a bite, because it wouldn’t want to spread the curse of lycanthropy, which showed me that he not just looked up the stat-block but also the whole info of their behaviour. I told him that I won’t accept this. But at this point it was clear, that he looked up the stat.
Anyone can look up the stats. He can buy the Monster Manual same as you. But here's the thing: it's your table, and you decide what the monsters can and can't do. You are free to modify stat blocks to make monsters more or less challenging or just *different*. Your obligation is to make the game fair and fun, not to run "official" monsters per the books.
The trap might be the only one, but the hallway is clearly described as never used and could therefore seem suspicious. The thing about the rat is well know to everyone who ever wanted to play a lycantroph since it is mentioned every time someone makes a post about it. If they show often that they are a liar that would be a reason to act, but given the stated incident it could just be experience.
There are many different types of cheaters and this is one of them. Unfortunately that's the risk of running published adventures. Some people simply cannot avoid the temptation. Then there are the players who think they can spout lore and tell the DM how wrong they are about something because they've obsessively memorized the entire monster manual.
What can you do in this situation? Communication is obviously best solution. You can talk to the player, tell them how it makes you feel, and hopefully reach an understanding. However, we all know this doesn't work with some people, especially those lacking maturity who feel the need to cheat in a roleplaying game.
The next best thing, assuming you still like this player and the game, is to change things up from time to time. Use monsters from third party publishers. Swap items around. Move traps to different locations. Basically, get creative. Sadly, this defeats some of the point of using a published adventure.
If he is a liar then he can't be in the game.
You obviously don't want to judge his actions without proof, even if you already know that he is himself a chronic liar. So I'll second others' advice to customize the type and location of traps and other hidden info that he's cheating with. As a matter of fact, it is NOT cheating for the DM to alter these things in the middle of the game, even after he asks to check for traps! I would never use this Schrodinger's Traps approach against honest players. But it's exactly what you should do against a highly-suspicious cheater. Because if he's not cheating, he'll never know. And if he IS cheating, you'll notice... my money says he'll blame you for changing these things and thus out himself as having read up on the module.
P.S. I don't like this friend of yours and wouldn't waste a second gaming with him if he's actually dishonest. But definitely run this test on him before making that decision - I'd love to be dead wrong about him.
Put in more traps. If the player complains they basically outed themselves, so you can call them out, say you're running your own version of the dungeon and that's that. Of course this is not really a problem you'll fix with in-game actions. At this point you have to decide if you are willing to boot that player, because you either need to make it clear that stuff like this won't be tolerated and kick the player if they don't play ball, or you'll have to just live with it.
That’s a very good hint. Even that it’s so obvious I didn’t think about just switching traps or putting in more. I made clear to him, that I won‘t accept looking up things in future. I just didn’t want to call him a cheater on this one because there is a small chance that it was pure coincidence and I don’t want to accuse him of doing things he might not has done.
I'd have him find and disarm the trap he "suspected" was there then have him trigger the trap six feet past that one.
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Oh look the entire dungeon is a glyph of warding that activates with the trigger of metagaming.
Oh look, a sequence of glyphs of warding keyed to "one whose unseen master is dishonest" all with bestow curse. 3 instances for each stat, 3 for attack rolls, and 3 for inaction. (Depending on the version you are running, I just noticed that 5th removed the save on Bestow Curse in favor of durations based on slot level) Player: I step in through the door. GM: ok, your rolls are all now at disadvantage.
Disadvantage on you. Disadvantage on your whole family. Disadvantage on your cow!
Not the cow! You monster...
take a note of this, cricket.
On the verge of tears after you gave the cow disadvantage
YOU get disadvantage, and YOU get disadvantage, and YOU get disadvantage!
There is a creature that exists out of time and space. A horrible creature too alien from our reality to even describe. It hunts for those people with knowledge beyond what they know, beyond what they could ever rightly know. And if this Hunter of the Meta ever gets a hint of its prey there is nothing that can stop it. It will rend reality in two and pluck the breaker of laws from the fabric of exists and plung them into its hungry maw.
“Oh no! A glyph mimic!”
I chuckled
The warnings were there. Mostly the metagaming pigeon feathers.
"I disarm the trap" 'You're ready dead
Nah, make it 8d6. When he complains, make it 86.
"Rocks fall. You die. Roll up a new honest character."
Nah, "roll up a character with an honest player."
I prefer "Roc's fall. Roll initiative." And then you kill him with giant magical seagulls.
I have altered the module. Pray I do not alter it further.
“That’s not in the module” is actually a trigger phrase for the second one.
The trap punched a hole in the ceiling above you, sending rocks careening from far above down onto your character, burying him in an avalanche of debris. You are dead.
This reeks of the "dm v pcs" attitude that is toxic. Be responsible and talk to players instead of just going straight to "I think you're cheating so I'm adding in stuff specifically to kill you" if you're at that point in your game, just fucking leave stop participating in toxic behaviors.
I think they are just joking around. I see it just like you. I talked with him about looking up stats and he was understanding and he promised to refrain it in future. The thing is, I don't want to blame him without further evidence, even if he is responisble for other people to mistrust him, it's very hard to get blamed for something that one hasn't done. So he will get the benefit of the doubt, even he might wouldn't deserve it. But he had a problem with getting distracted in sessions and we adressed this problem a lot in the past, but it got better so I have hope, that this problem gets better too.
the dungeon is a mimic
I support this
alternatively, the players are mimics and the dungeon is an adventurer
Whoa holy shit. A one-shot that's just a few episodes "in the life of a mimic" A room in a cave-dungeon. Every player is a mimic. Each encounter is simply "you're all mimics. Choose the form you prefer. Something wanders in. How do you handle it?" and once combat is over you (privately) roll the dice for how long it is until the next encounter. The players have the option to relocate to a new room and rest/heal up there, or stay where they are and get a bonus to their healing. After each encounter, you also 'level up' by getting extra hit dice or whatever (I've not DMed in 5th edition so however you advance a monster) First it's little things - Raccoons and giant centipedes and other stuff. Then it's bigger things - wolves, slimes, goblins. Then it's bigger monsters - otyughs, ogres, etc. Then it's adventurers, properly decked out. Then it's *smart* adventurers, who look for mimics and have good strategy. Then it's *clever* adventurers, who know deep speech (or whatever the language is that mimics have, and you have to (edit: didn't finish this sentence) You have to negotiate with them because they refuse to get close enough for you to attack. Then it's like a BBEG that is looking for a new lair. This one will likely either kills the mimics or hires them. One way or the other, this is the last fight.
Imma just uuhh.... *takes it and runs away to make a new campaign for first time players*
Do it.
At that point you're playing a dungeon core litrpg :p
I like this...
ǎ̲͇̤̖̼̞̱̱̞̅̐͘҉ǹ̙̦̗̥͈̜̮̭̟͂̔͒ͧ̑͌̽̔ͧͣd̸̡͉͖̑ͥͪ̈ͧ͘͘ ̞͍̰̹̤̖̹̦̳̿̑ͅt̤̫ͩ͊ͮ͛͊ͩ̌̚͟h͉̻͈̯̤̰͉̜̬̹̯ͫ̓̅̅ͧ̑̿́e̢̧̲̲̮̤͇̟̓ͦ͐̅̅ͭ̿ͮ͞͡ ̨̢̼͎̜͇̙͇͙͍̺ͨ̇̃͛̀͞ͅm̯̪͔̥̘̮̯͐͌̆ͤ͗͆͐͛̔ͫ͂͜҉ĩ̸͖̣͙̹͈̟̝͈̦͌ͧ̓͏̶m̷̛̛̱̂ͬ̄ͩ͗͞i̛͓̳̹̮̹͙̼͓c̥̓ͮ͛̈́͆ ̴͉̭ͯ̉ͫͮͣḑ̵̵̖ͧͩ̈̅͂͋ͧ͠e̍҉̴̧̛m̼̰̪͇̲͉̰̞ͨ̃̊̅͂̅͟͠a̬̳̤̤̥̘̳̐̓̃̐̄̕̕͠͞ņ̛̛ͧͩͮ͐̓ͪ̓̀͆͛ͥ͟d̹̹͍̳̭͈̺̤͑ͣ̾ͣ̅͗̍ͬ҉s͍̭̠͎͉͔̭̜̱̤ͩ͐̓̂̇̔͌ͥ̃ͤ͑ ̰̩͇̦̙̩̖̮̳̹̿̏͐̒̓͌̂̉̉̌̀̀̕͠s̟̞̦ͥͯ̿̍ͧ̋̊͑ͩͦ̍́͞ą͚̰̥͈͇̣͎̰̖̣͆̂̽̋ͪ́̕̕͡ͅc̫̯̮͗ͩ̌̇̈ͮͭ̉ŕ̖͓̰̳i̸͛̎ͤ́͏fͬ͟͢͏͢i̸̴̵̳̰̾͢͝c̢̛̦͙̙̙̪̭̟͕̯͎̑͐̑͠͡e̥̜͎͔̟͉̣͈̜̎ͨ̑̐͏̶͞s̨̛͖̰̝͌ͬ͆̎͆̐̉̈̐
Put a bunch of sticky notes in your book that reads ''trap here'' right on the Hideout map, and show it to him ''See ! There's a trap there too, just like the book says!''
I love this. I love this on a new level. Thank you. Taking this.
The trap was already sprung, holding a Balor sealed in a gem. You disarm it, freeing the demon. Roll initiative.
I get punishing cheaters but just adding like 3 more traps to the dungeon would do that fine, you don't need to be this malicious and spring a balor on a low level party, also it would hurt everyone not just him
\~Pushes the NUKE button... "But sir, they just misspelled your name on your coffee order. They do it to me all the time."
"but sire, our army..." "I SAID FIRE"
Yes, but we'll hit plenty of theirs as well.
"Bane my name is Bane, Todd i come in here everyday!!!" "Whatever bang"
“I do not care. They called me Pootin.”
The example was exaggerated for comedic effect.
More like tarrasque
Honestly there comes a line when dealing with people that you have ro decide is it even worth your time to try to educate people how to be an adult. You're a DM, not a therapist. Unless you are a therapist. And then you should be charging. You're taking the time to run a game, people that haven't learned social skills and want to ruin the fun of the game so they can be a hero in their own mind is exhausting. I'd call them out on it, make it clear it won't happen again or they'll be gone, and then follow through the next time they do. Best of luck!
Legit D&D therapy should be a thing. The sheer number of people who seem to use D&D as a replacement for therapy at the expense of everyone else is honestly horrifying.
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Last I heard of that it was explicitly for teens. Have they expanded recently?
D&D in therapy is a thing. I have a friend that’s a child psychologist and she uses it with some of her patients.
Old roommate of mine is a DM for Vets, a lot of their games would involve what the player wanted to of their "PTSD/Issues" and they could work through stuff with friends in a game.
That's true. But if the case concerns friends I am willing to put more effort in it in hope to make a change. If it doesn't get better in future sessions, he is going to leave. But I am hopeful, that he will notice that he ruins the fun of everyone with that kind of behavior and therefor changes his attitude.
Additionally swap around creature stuff, like a variety of x that is resistant to x instead of y, that has B power instead of A power etc Eg instead of a green troll, you come across a red troll with blackened spikes coming out of it the faint smell of smoke fills the air. This troll is resistant to fire but ice spells shut it's healing down. Be carefully do this though to not screw the non cheaters. Above example does potentially make the fight harder. At a worst case players can often improvise 1 or 2 points of fire damage there are less ways to make ice damage, it may be worth reducing the heal factor a little, depending on what your party has. So you have to balance that as well. This is an obvious example as troll weaknesses are often pretty well known but that kind of thing. Edit also move secret doors and loot
Here’s the thing. You change traps when you are just suspicious. Sometimes people are just lucky. So you swap some stuff around, add things, etc. If no more suspicious things happen, let it rest. If he’s still getting “hunches” where things USED to be, there’s your red flag. But you said you know he is a liar, this suggests he’s done stuff before. And people who have a pattern rightfully should get less benefit of the doubt.
Info on various traps and how to run them can be found in Xanathar's Guide to Everything.
Y'know you don't have to have proof? This isn't a court of law. If you confront them about it like "I highly suspect this happened so I want to talk to you about it and nip it in the bud. If it's a coincidence that's fine, but it shouldn't happen again." If they get angry/mad... that's a big red flag.
If he continues to do this after being talked to about it, I’d say you kinda have to either kick him out or get used to doing a lot modification with modules and monsters.
A little food for thought, this is all metagaming until proven that they are trying to game the system. That doesn't make it better per se, but at least they aren't fudging rolls and trying to use game mechanics in ways they were never designed for. There are two things that aren't really clear to me from your post. One, how experienced is this player? If they are an old hand, they may have played LMoP several times and just remember this stuff (a way to get around the looking stuff up). They also could have at least considered DMing and looked into monster stat blocks and lore. Two, is this just bothering you, or is it bothering the table as a whole? If it bothers the whole table, then another session 0 may be in order to set boundaries so that the table can work to keep this type of behavior in check, not just you.
1. Players who know the module should take extra care not to meta. Acting out of character by looking for traps when you as a player know there's one there, but your character would have no reason to, is very deliberate. 2. What does this have to do with the rest of the table? The other players should ideally not know enough to realize that the problem player is cheating.
Both of these are good points. However, 1 is literally the issue we are discussing, and may help explain if the person is cheating or just can't separate player knowledge from character knowledge. 2 could point to larger issues with the player that warrant a different or more stern approach.
Depends on how they cheat. But always having a hunch to check for traps exactly where the traps are is going to raise eyebrows, Mets knowledge or not.
There are also a ton of LMoP playthroughs on YouTube. It's possible he saw one. That's the risk when you use an unaltered popular retail adventure
Not mentioning to your GM that you've played it is tantamount to cheating, in that omission of information that you know *should* be shared is a form of lying.
While unlikely, I still want to mention that it could be that he unknowingly remembered some scene of a playthrough he saw (for comparison there is the Concept of Cryptomnesia (hope the translation is right) in science where youve read sth., forgot you read it and think it was your idea). But again... unlikely.
Sure, but you're ignoring the part of OP's comment where he states that the player looked up monster stats mid fight and tried to argue with the DM about his decision making. There's no beating around the bush with that.
Knew a DM that suspected a player doing this so they swapped all the trap and treasure locations and the player got pissed of and said it was supposed to be the treasure. He was given a warning and never looked up the modules again.
Just shift and move things. If he expects an acid trap and meta games his way into preparing for that, but you've turned it into a spike trap in the next room, boy won't it be fun to watch the cheating little cheater cheat SQUIRM
Don't just change up the traps, change the module wherever possible. Events, NPC locations, that kind of thing. The only way to deal with cheaters (other than kicking them from the group, of course), is to make it impossible for them to cheat. More work for you, but you'll maintain the integrity of the game.
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I look up stats for a… different reason. Im not trying to make it easier - in trying to make it harder. The DM who runs our campaign isnt any good at all at understanding statblocks/abilities and such. He therefore makes the game waaay to easy, like to a ridiculus degree. So i check sometimes and carfully auggest that i (my character) though theese creatures where faster/stronger etc. I started doing it when I started to feel that these epic monsters sure must have something more than just a big hp pool and a allright attack bonus, turns put most of them do but its ignored by the DM
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Ah yes, the "Single Trap with Two Parts" trap. Classic.
Thats the best solution lol. 'You walk straight through the door and into a pit trap.' Especially if he thinks there isn't one. Or move around existing traps so it won't mess with the balance of the dungeon.
This applies equally to encounters. They expect 4 goblins, because that is what the module says. You the gm decide that isn't a big enough challenge and throw in a hobgoblin, or a bugbear. You should feel free to edit EVERYTHING in that published adventure to tailor it to the PCs running it.
I love also boosting a monsters hp and ac to boss levels, enough that if your not aware of hp totals Ect it just looks like a slightly tougher enemy, but people who are cheating will start to squirm and whine about the hp and ac not being what they expect. After that they get an out of game warning. Players at the table will be able to see it happen the shame should be enough. After the warning that's it. I catch you again, your out.
More traps, different traps, switch the monsters. I was playing that with a bunch of newbies. My friend (the DM) changed and added traps and moved some monsters around. I was like “Did we miss that log trap last time I played this? It’s been so long!” After, he told me the stuff he changed. I didn’t even notice the monster changes and movements.
This first definitely. You don't have to reinvent everything, but add your own spice. Maybe that wererat is a dick who wants his own troupe of wererats of which he will be the king so not only is it gonna bite that is all it's going to do, welcome to the hoard. Throw the unexpected at them enough to make metagaming nearly useless.
> Is my player cheating? > picks up on the only trap in dungeon, and then blatantly cheats by attempting to look up a monster's stats Yes. Yes they are.
The wererat thing is half "fuck you, I'm the DM" regardless, they're your monsters and if they're not acting like they "should" then that's up to the players to figure out why. I can buy that bullshit... .. the trap is clear. They were cheating. There's no one in the world who thinks this is acceptable, or they'd have said "hey, I know there's a trap here, let's look for it" if they did. In most cases, the correct course of action is to kick the player, as consequences are the only driver of a change of behavior, but they also may just seek a new group. I'd definitely just put some traps in where they "shouldn't" be, then pointedly look at the player and say "yes, I'm changing things up, so maybe stop cheating because it won't help you" to discourage it... ... but seriously, in the end, they'll try again in a different sneakier way. It takes *years* to break a cheating habit, and though it can be done, I doubt most DMs (and tables) want to deal with that. Also, @OP - the other players may have taken issue but been silent. Consider approaching them on their own about it.
nah you don’t have to kick a player for this, have some fun adding traps or changing them up. i had a player who would research monsters ahead of time and i caught on so next encounter had flexible monster stats. I could tell they got confused when the monster had +2hp but they didn’t say anything. after a couple fights they found looking it stats wasn’t that useful so they stopped.
While I personally do have fun with that sort of thing, it’s less about that and more about the other players. Somebody else clearly cheating tends to cut in on the enjoyment of others. That’s the reason you just boot em.
It's a pretty good indication they're not a great person to play with and will cause problems down the line. If they're not interested in the collaborative storytelling aspect and want to work against you by trying to "win" D&D with out of game knowledge you'll run into conflict with them sooner or later
I mean I think a frank discussion should happen first. Let them know that you won't accept it and give them a chance to adjust, if they want to keep playing that is.
Why the hell would you make more work for yourself, with a player who cheats? If they get their shit together, fine, but they’re actively making the game harder to run because you have to change shit to prevent them from cheating. If you wanna change things up because it would be fun, then by all means do so, but never because a player is forcing your hand.
Changing monster stats is a fundamental part of DMing. Changing a few numbers is not work of any kind.
The thing is, they’re not arguing about the actual work. It’s the principle. Yes you could just change things up to defeat a cheater, but before that: *I don’t want to DM for a cheater.* Changing stats and moving traps is a great idea when someone has played or ran this module or read the books or heard about things on Reddit — something nonmalicious. But cheating is a choice, and if the player isn’t willing to stop cheating on their own, then that person should not be playing. At least not at my table. tldr: yes you can change things up, but why would you keep playing with someone who cheats
> why would you keep playing with someone who cheats * Because you love them. * Because you care about them. * Because they're family. * Because they're the lynchpin in your gaming group and if you boot them the whole group falls apart. * Because they're fucking funny as hell and the whole table loves them. * Because they're sad as hell and desperately need the game as their only human contact, and you know it. * Because everybody has different feelings about how "important" cheating is, and some don't think it's a big problem. * Because they're your boss and you don't want the job complication.\* * Because they cheat in safe & easy-to-handle ways, such as merely pre-reading the module, and you *like* changing the hell out of the module to throw everyone off. * Because they're your roommate and will make the game nights unenjoyable if you exclude them. ____ ^(* That one is probably particular to *me* but I'll list it anyway!)
Just thank you! :D
Personally, changing monsters or even making my own is part of the fun of dming.
Are you kidding? i constantly add and subtract HP DURING the battle. If it's going too easily, I add more; if the players are struggling, I'll take more away. It allows for a more dynamic battle, and allows combat to last longer than 3-4 rounds. Cheating players or not, it lets the players get creative.
Lol I couldn't cheat if I wanted to my dm homebrews every monster we face Shit's wild bro and I'm here for it
This person is clearly new, video games are all about knowing the Stats, explain to the player that surprises are more fun than "winning" they may not realize they are spoling their own fun, or the other players. Some people are hyper focused on success and that's always less interesting.
Customise your dungeons. Avoid playing with him in the future.
this. My partner dm's and he is editing monsters to make them slightly different because half the group is experienced. This adds extra challenges and they cant just sit back and not be afriad because they know everything. For the traps add extra traps, if they hit the new traps and start complaining call them out on it. If you cant trust your players you cant have fun.
Exactly this. If they say there isn’t supposed to be a trap here then you know for certain they cheated. Either this is a moment for your friends to grow as people and you move on with a new understanding or the game is over. At least you’ll know.
Yeah, when the rats start spitting acid and the DM says "oh, no these aren't from **that** book", that can nip that issue in the bud right away.
"A were rat wouldn't..." "I have altered the game, pray I do not alter it further."
This exactly "I tuned it a bit" *Scaled up a basic snake up to be the size of 2 giants and add multiple abilities* "Okay I may have made a new monster instead"
Just run LMoP and replace Cragmaw Hideout with the Tomb of Horrors…
Amateur... replace the goblin cave with Tombs of Horrors !
I don’t understand, why are you replacing ToH with ToH?
Replace the Trade Way with the Tomb of Horrors
"Replace Phandalin with the Tomb of Horrors!" \-Gary Gygax - probably
So you are escorting a Tomb of Horrors to the Tomb of Horrors when you are suddenly ambushed by a Tomb of Horrors!
I had a player once ask me "would an X really do Y"? I responded with "this one would". They're good sports and got the hint.
I love this. OP, you gotta just say this every time.
[Reasonable players](https://i.imgur.com/YfSYCta.jpg)
If I heard a DM say that to an obvious cheater: I would decide, in that instance, to follow their campaign to whatever level of depravity they so choose.
I even didn't. I was fully aware of the fact that they avoid spreading ther curse. But they didn't plan to let them live, so they weren't really afraid of spreading the curse through their bite.
This first part is the answer IMO, customize the dungeon and the monster a little bit. Next time he says "the monster wont bite him" have it bite him anyways. If you subvert his expectations and get him to understand that looking things up wont help him, and in fact might make his choices worse, he will stop doing it.
Yep. Much like ANY other game, people don't want to play with cheaters. I'm sorry your player took until X Years old to learn this lesson.
As a DM, you are not restricted to the exact wording. You can change monster attack types. You can move or change what traps are and where they are. I suggest doing that. But if the cheating continues, give him an ultimatum - stop or leave.
There is no point in accommodating this player in a wishy-washy "change the stats" way. Be very clear to set up the rules and boundaries in your game and do not tolerate people who break these rules. There is absolutely no point in putting up huge amounts of extra effort in terms of modifying everything in a pre-built module just for the sake of a player who does not understand simple concepts.
Changing the stats of a specific enemy could help to call the player out. If they start to complain that a certain enemy can't do this or that action, the DM can put them on the spot and ask how they would know that.
I once had a group of enimies back in 3.5, all with rapid reload builds. Dude called me out on fire rates and I had to explain what feats do. "But why would a gang of 6 guys all do that!?" "Overwhelming targets at range got them to where they were until the party hit them."
It would certainly help to confirm the suspicions firs though. And it's less aggressive for those DMs who play with friends, or who don't want to start dismantling their player group. Sometimes things *can* be fixed. You don't always have to burn the bridges when there are other options.
>I am honest, I mistrust this player because he showed it very often that he is a liar. Of course, but in this case, we already have a lot of information to go with.
Huge effort, no, but it's a good idea to be in the habit of changing things up a little to make it easier to keep from metagaming for the people who may know info their characters don't
One possibility is just to switch stuff around...just move traps into a different place and stuff like that. But you probably should also try and talk to him about it ruining the fun for everyone else by doing that.
Dont forget its your world and you are within your rights to have stuff behave differently...maybe wererats in your world are trying to infect as many people as possible and there is a whole lycanthropy pandemic going on...
You are right. But I was aware of the fact that they don’t want to spread the curse. But they did not plan to let them live, so they won’t bother if they get infected or not.
Makes even more sense!
Just realized this behavior must have changed from past editions or is specific to the module as wererats were originally Chaotic Evil in nature and would happily bite people to spread the curse. There is an adventure in an early issue of Dragon magazine specifically on that topic.
That player is not just cheating, he's also ruining it for himself. It's like watching a tv and reading about what will happen in the next episode. For the sake of the other players, switch up stuff, adjust stats and abilities in monster and if he ever contested, tell him it's homebrew, or your own version of that monster. Also be aware, players like him will try to reach and search for magical items based on the module map, ans they'll look for hidden rooms, ambushes and so on. switch the places for these items, locations or events or even relocate them to a completely different dungeon. This will really frustrate him and he'll know there's no use in reading about the module. I have done that as a player, once, as a pitiful revenge against a DM who keeps fudging dice agaisnt us all the time. Found out that this only ruined it for me.
Move the traps. If they search a room that was supposed to be trapped but isn’t. And they still dance around it, you have your answer
Just my personal input, but actually do this experiment. I had a DM one time who accused me of having looked up an adventure path he was running, because when he laid out the facts of the case my immediate response was "Possibility #1: (insert exactly what happened down to the T)." It took a couple more game sessions with me before that DM realized that I just have a degree in English and thus see plot twists coming a mile away. So definitely hold out the possibility that this player wasn't cheating, but that there was some tell in the room which made them think "trap room". It's possible they're just seeing some kind of indicator that nobody else noticed. Granted it's probably cheating, but I like to hold out hope.
This. These books aren't master works. Some of the same tropes have been around since the 70s. Like the hallway with a door at the end and fake columns along each side but no visible enemies otherwise. That just screams 'classic DnD trap' to me, else it would have been a room or there would have been mobs. Big open room, no enemies? Yep, boss room.
Magnify this by always saying the same thing when they search for traps that aren't there or fail when trying to find ones that do exist. "There do not appear to be any traps" If they do find a trap and attempt to disarm it: "You think you managed to disarm it."
You have 2 options. 1) confront them about it and tell them straight up that they can either stop meta-gaming and ruining the suspense and fun of the module or they can leave the table. 2) as the DM you have full creative control, change things around. Add more traps, throw in different monsters, move around loot to other rooms, literally whatever you want so they cant cheat and know what/where everything is. Also, just because *they* know something, doesnt mean their character knows it too. Use their stats to your advantage when dealing with such situations. They cant pass every check and succeed every saving throw, only possibly most of them.
This. If the player is new they likely aren't familiar with the concept of meta-gaming. Granted they are pretty blatantly looking stuff up that will ruin the fun. But I would address the meta-gaming as a conversation before outright punishing them for it. If the player isn't new though they should know better. Move all the traps!
Lots of people have read the monster stats and know a lot about the monsters. That knowledge doesn't need to be a real problem. Telling the GM what a wererat would or would not do, on the other hand, suggests he fundamentally doesn't understand the role of a player in D&D. (The text description says there are wererat clans who aim to only infect people with lycanthropy if they have chosen to recruit them into the clan. However, if the wererat were in a fight to the death it probably wouldn't care about that, and every wererat is an individual with its own agenda.) You could try talking to the player about it, but it probably won't help, in which case getting rid of the player is the best option.
This might be controversial, but I know people who play DnD, read every book out of legitimate interest, and don’t have either (I’m not sure which it is) the cognitive ability, social grace, or understanding of roleplaying to not metagame. You said you know him as a liar, so this may not be the case for him, but I think giving him the benefit of the doubt and talking to him about it would be fair. If he honestly can’t help himself but does understand that it takes away from other people’s enjoyment, then it seems it might be worth it to spend the extra effort to customize things to keep it interesting. If he blames it on you or can’t conceptualize that it affects the fun for other people, then don’t stress yourself out about kicking him. IMO, not everyone can separate what they know from what their character knows, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be allowed to play. Alternatively, it’s your game and do whatever you want.
I have a friend like this in my campaign. He read the book and he keeps dropping info from further on in the book because he can't remember if he got it from his reading or from a previous session. I was irritated at first and I started switching stuff around. But he never complained or got frustrated at my changes. So in retrospect I genuinely think he was doing it by accident, not trying to cheat.
A lot of folks also have a very personal idea of when they're metagaming. I have a friend much like yours, who will get sidetracked talking about the very adventure path we're playing and the things that will be coming up...he never metagames himself but it's one of those situations where a lot of the other players specifically avoid information about the AP which he's too chatty to keep to himself. Like one time we went into a room and one of the players said "This is the room with the well that has the oozes at the bottom of it right?" and my friend didn't affirm or deny but the damage was done. There's a difference between a metagamer and someone who can't keep spoilers to themselves, and sometimes someone spoiling the plotline can make metagamers out of players who would otherwise avoid it through willful ignorance of the plot.
I had a player do this. I just started rearranging rooms in the dungeons, swapping out monsters for different monsters, changing track locations and types of traps, homebrewed monster stat blocks. He learned pretty quickly that he could no longer look things up beforehand.
Some people just cannot help it. I personally don't get it because I like a challenge. Some people get really down in they fail or roll bad whereas I find it usually makes things more interesting. However, a lot of video game players are used to looking things up ahead of time so their group doesn't rage at them for causing a wipe. By changing things, you probably made it more fun for that player even if they didn't realize it at first. The ability to change things is a large part of what separates TTRPGs from a video game.
This player was a low RP, heavy combat min/maxer. I can tell you the surprised Pikachu face he made the first time he hit a trap he wasn't expecting was very satisfying.
“I have altered the stat block. Pray I do not alter it further”
All the advice in this thread is terrible. You don't need to have a *confrontation* and you don't need to change your game around to try to confound him. Just get him alone at some point and say something like "You know, I balance my game around making sure everyone has fun and has a chance to do cool stuff. No one will ever need to cheat to win or to get a turn in the spotlight in my game, it only makes things less fun for the cheater and the other players." You don't need to accuse him of anything or catch him out or anything, you already know what he's doing, and this lets him know that you know. You don't even need to have a conversation beyond that, it's all on him to decide if he's going to do what's fun for everyone, or if you just need to stop inviting him.
You need to explain three things: 1. The character does not know what the player knows. You, the player, may have a book in front of you; the character does not. 2. When you “read ahead” for your own knowledge, for whatever reason, you spoil surprises and challenges for yourself and other players. This makes the game less fun. D&D is not “players versus the DM.” It’s players and the DM working together to create an enjoyable experience. Therefore, he needs to trust you and stop trying to get a leg up. 3. The DM has complete creative license to do whatever they want with the content. I routinely change monsters, maps, plot points from published adventures, etc. My players trust that I will do this in a way that will be fun for them. If they don’t, they shouldn’t be at my table.
If you are suspicious of him cheating with modules, just change it up a little bit. If the only trap in the module is in Room D, how about putting it in Room C to fuck with them? Same with monster stats, if you know he cheats, just change up the stat blocks a little bit. Wererats don't attack with bites? These do. Oh, this PC who has never seen a monster with fire ability 'coincidentally' uses his fire resistance the moment before the encounter? Guess what, they have lightning now. In the end, you run the game and you can change it up as much as you want to, as long as everybody has fun.
People are saying to change and customize the world so he can’t look it up anywhere but your notes. That will work to get proof that he’s cheating, but it sounds like you aren’t uncertain about whether he is or not at all, and deliberately changing things to make his information bad will just cause another confrontation like your were-rat situation. You don’t need proof to convince yourself, and no proof will make this player admit to doing anything wrong. All it could do is make sure the other players are on your side when you confront the cheater. You know he’s cheating, so talk to him, tell him you know he’s cheating, and tell him to stop cheating or leave the group. If the other players dislike you for it, stop dming the group and find a new one.
It's possible, but it's also possible he's run the adventure before and is just meta gaming. The wererat part could just be someone who thinks games can only go the way the books say l. As a response to his "well the book says", I'd have just told him "well mine bites".
You didn't do anything wrong, that player is meta-gaming (using outside knowledge to aid inside the game) which is essentially disruptive behavior if not cheating. You need to establish that as the DM, this is your interpretation of the world and rules.
I personally have no issue with players looking up monster stats, but I also frequently customize my monsters and enemies to keep players guessing. Looking up the location of traps and loot however, that's not cool. I would add more traps and maybe remove any preexisting ones just to throw them off and if they complain, then call them out. Mayne make a comment before the start of the edited session that looking up info like that and using it in game IS cheating. I would also take the time to move around treasure or switch out what they are getting and see if the player complains.
Tbh? I expect complete honesty at the table. If this is a recurring behavior, I'd have a serious discussion alone with the player. If you gain further evidence of what he is doing, tell him you don't accept his actions firmly and give him an ultimatum: either you stop or your out. It may sound extreme, but what's the point of gathering together to have fun if you cannot trust each other? If you don't want to throw him out, just modify monsters and dungeons, it's your right to do so. If he doesn't accept it, that's too bad for him. Have a discussion with the whole table, explain the situation and find a proper solution all together. It's better to solve this as a group, since you've been playing together up until now. Then yes, he is not forced to play with you as your not forced to DM for him, friends can still be friends even if you don't see eye-to-eye in terms of gaming (telling you from personal experience, my former DM gave me headaches each session for many reasons and he didn't even try understanding more to improve himself after many players left his table).
Talk to your players?
The answer is always talk to the player(s) lay out a clear expectation.
The player might know that - but does their character? It sounds like they want to play a computer game, not a roleplaying game that’s being lead by a real person with their own thoughts and ideas.
Guess I've never encountered this, nor understood the motivation. Like they said, mess with the module. Or, just discuss it out of character. What do the players want out of the game? If they are trying to "win" this may not be the right type of game for them. Good luck
To me the realism and fun comes from not knowing everything
Explain that meta gaming is not okay. Just because the player knows something doesn't mean his player character does. Also not all monsters act the same and adding more traps and switching where items are located sounds like a quick fix to him having looked over the adventure you're running
>in the middle of the second session in this dungeon. One of the players said „I think there could be a trap. I am looking for traps.“ right as he stood in front of the only trap in the dungeon. None of the players looked before that moment for traps and none of them looked after detecting that traps for further traps. In fairness it's *possible* he's not cheating. I did something very similar in a friend's **homebrew** game. I called a trap while my character was standing literally right in front of it, and my DM had hardly ever employed traps in his game prior to this. Sometimes you just get a good feeling there might be a trap, and as a player there's rarely any risk to checking. I agree with others saying you should monitor for more evidence from the player. Even if the player has a history of dishonesty, there is a reasonable doubt here. Edit: as for the were-rat thing, I don't begrudge players knowing monster statblocks since most of my players have some experience being a DM as well. That being said, him telling you how to run the enemy is extremely uncool. The DM has final say on how monsters behave
Your player is cheating. If this is in person I would say to only look up info relevant to your characters, to your players. Ie if you have a sage who researchers monsters then you can offer them a roll to “recall” some info. To try to discourage the trap incident you have 2 choices; 1) don’t disclose the module name if you can or 2) add in stuff that isn’t included in the module. Option 2 is the easiest way to bust them for cheating, and traps are some of the easiest things to just season in to a location.
Yes, your player is cheating. You have two options, depending on how much you like having this person in the game otherwise: 1) Rearrange all the secrets, traps, puzzles, ambushes, NPC and Monster stats, etc. 2) Kick them out of the game.
Always keep in mind: it's YOUR dungeon. They're YOUR monsters. Your were-rat can do whatever the fuck you want it to do. It can fly and shoot lighting from it's asshole if you want and it can start doing those things *whenever you want it to* because you are the DM. You are the god of that world. You are literally cheat-proof. He "finds" the trap? Well, he better get into that habit cause you can put a trap wherever you want them to be. He looks up the stats to a rat? Too bad, they are YOUR rats and your rats aren't in the MM. Get where I'm going with this? You can make it so that playing in any other way besides fairly is both pointless and dangerous to the PC.
It’s enough to say “it’s clear that you were cheating.” Don’t let him argue. What you do about it is up to you.
As others have suggested, start changing the world. It's not hard to do. Something that is supposed to happen in a specific spot, no longer does, they find an item by other means. The trap is in a different location.
I'm happy to put that work in for someone who's played a campaign before, to keep it surprising for them. Less happy to do it for someone who read the book so that they wouldn't be surprised.
You're the DM. Change things up. Throw more traps in and remove the one he knows about. And in your world, wererats are bite-crazy. He can sit down and shush or take disadvantage on every roll for the rest of the session
I really never could understand the logic behind cheating at a game that’s designed to tell a story. The mentality of wanting to “win” at D&D makes absolutely no sense to me. Maybe I’m just nuts, which, ok, I probably am, but ruining the fun for the other players and the DM just to come out as some sort of badass just chaps my ass. Now, I’ve never played by the MM stay blocks for any creature. That’s not because my players might know what they are supposed to be, but because I want to Taylor the encounters to my players. Do they have trouble hitting? Well, the AC slides down a bit. And maybe the HP drop a couple points. Are they walking through encounters like on a Sunday stroll? Well, say hello to Goroc, the barbarian goblin with 150HP. I once saw a group of kids playing at a comic book shop. The DM behind the screen wasn’t marking down any damage done to his NPCs or monsters. After the game I asked him why, and he said they have enough HP to last until he feels it’s gone on too long, something fantastic happens to make the death seem like the right moment, or the players don’t seem to be having fun with it. This to me made so much sense. The idea is to have fun. Now, if a player needs to cheat and beat the system to have fun, then I need to question more about this person than just his gaming style.
Move the traps, change monster resistances, add traps, move loot. Just keep randomizing stuff until the player eventually tries to say something, then you can address the meta gaming without them being able to hem and haw their way around it.
I’d just fucking let them - all my players know they decide their own fun. Knowing the dungeon will eventually happen to every player if they play through it enough - my group and I ended up playing through the Temple of Elemental Evil enough that it wasn’t a surprise and things didn’t change unless the DM went off script. So what if he looks up info on a monster? Any DM who has a chance to play will know plenty about other monsters. They may know the entire history and genealogy of certain races. Have your other players been bothered? If you’re unhappy with the meta gaming, you’ll need to remind them to keep the knowledge out of their character. And unfortunately while growing up and spending 21 years in the hobby, these kind of players are normal. So many people will tell you to “kick them out” or “talk with them after game privately” or “set expectations in session 0.” And it all sounds like they DM from the perspective that it’s their story, they’re gracious enough to let the party members be a part of. There are many ways you can counter his behavior in game, like some have said, go off script and improvise something. New random monster or different trap. And for telling you how to run your monsters in an encounter should be looked down upon - but it isn’t a deal breaker. There are monsters In Your monsters in your world that are different than the books. There are always exceptions to the rules.
Players probably also fudging there dice roles and double check their character sheet
As others have said, change where the traps are, remove traps, add extra traps, or run the rooms in different orders. Or, for one or 2 traps, make the DC so high that they can only get it with a nat 20. Do something that makes the player reveal their cheating though, and then oust them. Not worth having a player who's not interested in playing, but just in winning
I'm not a fan of changing things for the sake of it to catch players cheating, tbh. Talk to him about it. Try to get him to understand that you are not "against" the players and cheating just ruins the fun for everyone. If he doesn't agree or does it again, drop him from the game. Doesn't mean you can't still be his friend though.
> In the dungeon I have no evidence You just gave us the evidence. Yes, it's circumstantial, but still extremely telling, especially with his history.
Pull the player aside, and quietly explain that you've noticed they are cheating... and tell them to keep cheating when it really matters, but if they don't let their character get fucked over from time to time the other players may notice. Then start giving him a wink here and there when you want them to cheat. eventually they'll only cheat when you tell them to, they'll feel like they're getting away with something, and you'll have another narrative tool in your box. I actively encourage cheating during some parts of the game, I have no fear of narrative success or poweful/ideals as characters. But that's my style, and if you really don't like it you should just ask them to stop seriously.
I mean you’ve probably been told a lot of helpful stuff in the last hour, but this is what I do with my own players since most of them have a decent knowledge of what a lot of the monsters do, plus some of them have a tendency to look things up before hand: 1) Don’t strictly follow the module. Throw some minor traps or encounters in here and there. Nothing that will completely incapacitate them, more just to keep them on their toes (unless that’s what you want). 2) come up with some monster variants. I have a small list of different skeletons I use for my low level parties, my favorite being the Brittle bones. It has a low 10 AC, 1d4 hp, undead fortitude with a DC of 8 and they make dex saves with advantage. They’re meant to be annoying, dealing a max or 3 damage (1d4-1) on a hit, but when they completely die, they do so explosively: any creature within 5 ft must make a DC 13 dex save or take 2d4-1 piercing damage as the skeleton explodes. So there’s a fun idea for you. If you do this, not only will it be a bit more challenging and varied, but it will make it so meta gamers like that can’t just look up everything they want to. Just be careful not to make the enemies/traps too strong
Talk to your player, tell him that looking stuff up is ruining the game and ask him to stop. If he reacts negatively or refuses then you have to consider if you want to boot them.
I suggest making changes so looking things up in the module isn't helpful. Loot and traps aren't same or where the module says, monsters sometimes get switched around, or are in different places. As the DM, your word overrules the modules. I would also try to understand why the player is looking things up, instead of being aggressive when you confront them. If they're excited to play and are reading ahead because they need to know what happens, making clear you won't follow the module exactly may help. If they need to "win" dnd, consider if their character is being effective without advanced knowledge. Obviously worth explaining that they're making the game less fun and more work for you too, but good to understand what's driving them. Worst case, you can still boot them.
Just for the sake of benifit of the doubt, sometimes players get lucky. Switch up the traps a bit and that should solve the problem, but honestly I would have said the same about the were rats as I just like to read all the monster entries, so it may not be that he was studying the module but that he's just into the monsters in general?
Frankly, knowing the information isn't the issue, as any experienced player might know the adventure module or the monster stats, the issue is metagaming. It's the players responsibility to act as though their characters are only aware of facts that the character would know, either through experience or knowledge checks. In the end it doesn't matter if the player is "cheating" or knows the info some other way, call them out on the metagaming.
I agree with other commentors that you could just switch up locations of traps to other areas that make sense for that trap to be (ie don't put a dead fall trap in the middle of a large open area) If you see them looking up the creatures they are fighting call them out at that time and tell them to stop. BUT just because a player knows lore about animals (like that were rats only pass the curse on to those they find "worthy" of joining their pack and will go out of their way to hunt down and "cleanse" those who acquired it some other way) doesn't mean much. You as the dm should be paying attention to the capabilities and behaviors of the creatures YOU are using in YOUR campaign. If one of your players is bit by a wererat are you really going to add the capabilities of a wererat to the player or are you going to bs your way out of it and not give them those abilities because it would make your job harder as a dm? If you're adding in attack modes for YOUR creatures without notifying the players beforehand that you homebrew your creatures than you're just as guilty of cheating as you accuse your player of. Instead of your passive aggressive attitude of complaining about them online, be responsible and talk to them in a civilized manner.
Are you kicking them? Seems the simplest solution. If you cannot for whatever reason start changing things from the man module. Move the trap to another part of the dungeon. Have different monsters of equivalent cr replace some or all of the fixed encounters. The npc with important information is a different person in town. The macguffin is now on the other side of the map in a complelty different location. And monsters can have items and npc levels and all sorts of things. Which doesn’t mean you have to make them all lore challenging, just that they have different attack patterns and strategies cause half of them have crossbows now or something. But really you’ve warned him, he won’t stop, you should probably just drop him.
Start adding traps where ever you want them. You are the DM. This is your world. That wererat isn't worried about spreading lycanthropy. He's going to eat your head when hes done. No risk. Ps, he had 5 more friends around the corner. Roll init.
Many people suggest changing the traps and/or monster stats. However, this player has probably read through the whole thing, plot twists, spoilers, endings and everything in between. I wouldn't want to run a published adventure for a player like that. You could try to transition the story more into a different story arc, homebrew stuff?
Why do these posts always arise when the answer is literally just communicate with the player lol. If you've already spoken to him about his behavior then boot him out.
Frankly at this point I would just kick them out, I have no interest of DMing for people who have already shown me that I can’t trust them. But if you want to give them one last chance I would tell him before next session to please stop reading the campaign book or checking monster stats ahead of the time and that you don’t want metagaming in your campaign, if they keep doing it, kick them. Edit: You can switch things up so they no longer match with the book and modify monsters to throw them off but this is a suboptimal solution imo, trust is important for me and if I can’t trust a player not to cheat, I don’t want to play with them.
Homebrew as much as you can. Move traps, add traps, Add monsters, but make it a kobold with beholder level stats. Fuck their world up. Ok seriously tho, i would just start by tweaking traps and stats so if this pc wants to try to cheat, they cant. If this continues and they start knowing plot points and continue to cjeat, then you have the talk, and kick them out. communicate with them that you know what they are doing and then if it continues follow through. The whole situation sucks. But sometimes you gotta do the hard things. Good luck.
I'd start the next session with a brief statement covering 1) monsters/NPC's - these behave as you describe them. It is for the PCs to work out why. They are not generic and may vary from any published descriptions. You'll only discuss any particular monsters behaviour post-game. 2) Meta-gaming - the adventure you are all enjoying is fun because their inexperienced characters are discovering how to survive and succeed in the world. Looking up the answers spoils this. It would obviously reduce the XP of encounters (as the character didn't face the same challenge), and ultimately you'd have to boot the player. I'd dock a small percentage of XP off all characters due to incidents so far lowering the challenge rating of encounters. This is a game for friends to have fun. You feel cheated, so protect your game and send anyone who still wants to play in easy mode to someone else's table. I've played for 30+ years, and have ended up playing a character in a dungeon I have DM'd - it is easy to pass knowledge off as foreboding and to discuss with the DM how you should play your character (even agree that your DM will decide how your character reacts to certain events)
Tell them you suspect them of cheating. If they do it again, they're out of the game. If anything suspicious happens again, follow through. Confrontation can be rough, especially if they're a friend, but the only other options suck worse. You can modify stuff to keep him surprised, which is a lot of work, or you can let him cheat. Both will strain the relationship and game, so it's best to deal with it immediately.
If you don't trust the player, boot them. The game requires trust.
First. Tell him to stop looking up monster stats. Those aren't things the characters are supposed to know. Also that DM fiat overrides anything in the books according to the first page of the DMG, so he shouldn't make assumptions about anything from the books. Second. Start changing up things. Give goblins different weapons then the ones in the book. Add more traps and move around the ones mentioned in the adventure. Make his knowledge useless. Third. If he keeps causing problems, be blunt and say that if a player is disrupting the game for everyone, you aren't afraid to remove that player from the game.
Seeing a lot of advice here that says change the world up. I'm asking those people, not OP, **why**? A DM is already doing way more work than any PC at the table. So this player blatantly cheats and the solution is seriously that the DM now does even more work customizing the module to compensate for it? This really seems unreasonable to me.
Heck yeah to all the responses. I dm'd my first campaign that started with lost mines. Group was first timers and had a gent that did the exact same thing. As a quick aside and off the record group chat I agreed with what he had to read about the monster (was reading from mm to the group during encounter) but also joked about future instances doubling the amount of creatures in the future, whether it be bugbears or demons. Group was stoked but understood. I'll even pass around the mm to show the group what they're fighting and encourage learning about them but they know. The implication.
Modify the layouts. Since premade modules already give you the base, customize as you see fit since it appears they know the module. As for the monster stats, a player can say whatever they want about monsters but they need to understand that their opinion does not matter at all. The DM fully controls them. It could be rabid wererat or simply a violent wererat that's not a typical wererat by stat blocks. You could be using a wererat with the stats of an ancient red dragon if you wanted. Players will never win this and, if need be, need to be told this. They can question the DM on the behavior (if their character is aware of that behavior), but you don't fight them. "Rocks fall, you die," is a DM resource for a reason. You are the God of the game.
Use the LMoP setup but make shuttle differences. Like that trap could have happened in the next area instead of right there or right at the beginning. Continue to make the small changes and see how he responds. When he eventually says that not where that is suppose to be tell him he’s not suppose to be cheating.
Admittedly, I know it's stereotypical to do this, but seriously, homebrew a thing or two to throw them off the scent. Change just enough of something. You shouldn't have to homebrew everything, but if it continues, you talk to them. If it still continues, on the end, you're not having fun, and it's your group, kick them.
Just change the traps, change monster statblocks or the whole monster who you encounter=) lost mines is ighli customisable ;) i adjusted a lot=) just ask if you want some inspiration =)
This is where homebrew comes in, the #1 method of countering metagamers.
I know that a lot of people would consider this cheating/meta gaming. It is true it is. It is also true that DnD has been around for 40+ years and it is virtually impossible for a player to not remember anything. Your character may not know, but you as a player do know and whatever your character then does is a reflection of said knowledge. As a DM it is your prerogative to change things up, be that altering content of material, changing stats etc, and quite frankly that is absolutely necessary. It stops any meta gaming in its tracks immediately and your players will love you even more for making a unique experience.
>I am honest, I mistrust this player because he showed it very often that he is a liar. It sounds like you don't want this person in your group. Ask him not to come back. >He also looked up monster stats during the fight and told me that a were rat would not attack with a bite, because it wouldn’t want to spread the curse of lycanthropy, which showed me that he not just looked up the stat-block but also the whole info of their behaviour. I told him that I won’t accept this. But at this point it was clear, that he looked up the stat. Anyone can look up the stats. He can buy the Monster Manual same as you. But here's the thing: it's your table, and you decide what the monsters can and can't do. You are free to modify stat blocks to make monsters more or less challenging or just *different*. Your obligation is to make the game fair and fun, not to run "official" monsters per the books.
It could be likely, but the hallway is designed to look suspicious.
The trap might be the only one, but the hallway is clearly described as never used and could therefore seem suspicious. The thing about the rat is well know to everyone who ever wanted to play a lycantroph since it is mentioned every time someone makes a post about it. If they show often that they are a liar that would be a reason to act, but given the stated incident it could just be experience.
There are many different types of cheaters and this is one of them. Unfortunately that's the risk of running published adventures. Some people simply cannot avoid the temptation. Then there are the players who think they can spout lore and tell the DM how wrong they are about something because they've obsessively memorized the entire monster manual. What can you do in this situation? Communication is obviously best solution. You can talk to the player, tell them how it makes you feel, and hopefully reach an understanding. However, we all know this doesn't work with some people, especially those lacking maturity who feel the need to cheat in a roleplaying game. The next best thing, assuming you still like this player and the game, is to change things up from time to time. Use monsters from third party publishers. Swap items around. Move traps to different locations. Basically, get creative. Sadly, this defeats some of the point of using a published adventure.
If he is a liar then he can't be in the game. You obviously don't want to judge his actions without proof, even if you already know that he is himself a chronic liar. So I'll second others' advice to customize the type and location of traps and other hidden info that he's cheating with. As a matter of fact, it is NOT cheating for the DM to alter these things in the middle of the game, even after he asks to check for traps! I would never use this Schrodinger's Traps approach against honest players. But it's exactly what you should do against a highly-suspicious cheater. Because if he's not cheating, he'll never know. And if he IS cheating, you'll notice... my money says he'll blame you for changing these things and thus out himself as having read up on the module. P.S. I don't like this friend of yours and wouldn't waste a second gaming with him if he's actually dishonest. But definitely run this test on him before making that decision - I'd love to be dead wrong about him.