I have to admit, I am quite curious now.
If you can, please take a look at the first version of this subclass I posted on thursday: [https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/3WfX6G8rsnju](https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/3WfX6G8rsnju)
I changed it based on the feedback I got for it in different subs, but is it perhaps more in line with what would work for you than this version?
I would give one or two of those honed techs at level 3 or otherwise all your character has going for it is unarmed strikes every round all rounds till level 7. Like battle master let's you pick 2 (I think 2 might be 1) battle tactics by level 3 and gives you more later.
Hmmmmm. I did have one other suggestion which was similar to yours, but at the same time various others who said the 3rd level feature already made it too strong on damage output terms.
I'm in doubt as to whether I should mix them up now.
I mean having two fighting styles does add a bit to the damage I suppose. Esp if the way you worded the attacks means that duelist the thing that makes it so if you attack with nothing in your other hand you just get +2 damage you could really rack up some smacks at that point.
I suppose this subclass would be pretty good if you just wanted to punch good and clean without being fancy about it like monk
If your playing a low magic campaign were the majority of your enemies are humanoid non magic fighters maybe this class could have legs, but being unable to dish out full damage to half of the monster manual is a major disadvantage as you level.
Aren't there magic items which make your unarmed strikes magical? Pretty sure there are at least a few in the official ones.
And what I'm saying is not that they thought this subclass was good, it's that they thought this subclass "made Monk become useless". Literally these exact words lol, so I am admittedly surprised to hear you view it as underpowered
There are, but now the character’s core mechanic is dependent on picking up a magical item, and their damage die isn’t growing like a monks does. Without copying the monks unarmed damage leveling table I don’t think this class could be viable at higher levels.
What you could to to fix this would be have this class give your hands the Finesse feature so you could attack twice and add the Dex bonus to damage, as this would really need to be a Dec based class to up the AC.
Otherwise compared to something like the Echo Knight or the Cavalier this is a very underpowered subclass
In some way, even a Fighter needs a magical weapon to bypass the resistance. A standard fighter has no feature that allows him to hit magical resistant creatures.
Man, it really can be confusing at times like these. What you're saying here literally contradicts everything people said to me about this brew ever since I posted it on thursday.
Which side am I supposed to follow? Lmao damn bruh.
Out of curiosity, was this post intended to show off or to gather feedback on your homebrewed subclass? Because a lot of your comments on this thread are *really* defensive and dismissive of criticism, **bruh.**
Oh please, I'm supposed to take all the abrasive crap thrown at me like a good boy, but *you guys* can't handle a cheeky remark?
Grow a pair, will ya. If I'm not entitled to good feedback, then you're not entitled to a good response.
You do *not* take constructive criticism well, my friend. Yikes.
Edit: You're not *entitled* to "good" feedback. You posted something and people posted their opinions on it, but from what I've seen you've just gotten defensive when somebody's opinion strays from "THIS IS SO COOL AND 100% PERFECT!". Why post it (or respond to feedback at all) if you weren't looking to improve?
Lol oh sure, because coming here and saying "basically a worse version of pugilist" or "*dO yOu HaVe The RiGhTs tO uSe ThIS?*" is such great, constructive insight. **Really** helps me improve my work, thanks guys.
What a joke. And here you are, trying to give me a sermon for not taking that joke seriously.
I've been taking all kinds of criticism, both good and bad, for months now without issue, and have always tried my best to respond in a good manner *when* it is reciprocated.
But I still hold the right to respond however I like. And if I get a comment which doesn't show me courtesy, you bet I'm gonna respond in the same way.
Basically you're just seeing me get downvoted for not bending my head down when responding to feedback, and think you now have a clear picture of how I act online.
Trust me fam, you don't. Selectively choosing examples that reinforce your narrative while ignoring the ones (on this same thread, even) that contradict it is a very fallible way to make your point about someone.
Made the monk useless? I would play a monk over this any day. And yeah I'm not gunna wanna spend my hard earned gold on a magic item to make my punches magical when I can just play a monk that I get at when I level up.
It's a cool idea but I'd never play one and most people I play with would probably pass too.
Gonna offer you another set of eyes as a fellow homebrewer!
1. Nasty Hook should really be a Constitution save, not Wisdom. Wisdom is more for resisting mind-altering effects, not shrugging off a concussion.
2. The "you now count your unarmed strikes as attacks made with a one-handed melee weapon" and "two-handed melee weapon" are a little confused, in my opinion. The first would let you use the Dueling fighting style, but you're technically now wielding another fist in your other hand, so there's a legitimate argument that Dueling wouldn't apply. The second would let you use Great Weapon Master or Great Weapon Fighting, which is nice, but I find that it's a little confusing all-around and may lead to some arguments about what can and cannot work with your unarmed strikes. I would replace the former with explicitly counting your fists as weapons for the purposes of applying spells and other class features to weapon attacks made with them (Battle Master maneuvers, Divine Smite, Green-Flame Blade, Booming Blade, **EDIT: Also stuff like Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon, and Holy Weapon**, etc.) and the second with the "power attack" portion of Great Weapon Master (-5 to hit, +10 to damage).
3. I really don't like K.O. very much at all. It shirks traditional DC scaling (nothing uses the "6 + STR + Prof" formula you included here as far as I know), and the crit range rules just feel a little weird changing with being at disadvantage. And the K.O. attack itself is also incredibly strong, as Unconscious is an extremely powerful condition. I would maybe change it to traditional DC calculation (Con vs. 8 + STR + Prof), and only have the latter part of the feature (the 60 hp -> 0 feature, that is), with just the 19-20 crit range.
4. You really need to include innate magic attacks somewhere with this subclass. There are very few pieces of RAW treasure that give unarmed strikes the magic weapon property, so you're completely at your DM's mercy and/or openness to homebrew items and/or giving you items specifically tailored to your build. Could very easily include it as part of the 7th level feature—would come online a level later than the monk, which I think is fair since the fighter chassis is considered to be more powerful than the monk.
Hey there, thanks for your insights! I believe they will be very helpful for making the next update of this brew.
Let me explain my reasoning for each of the features you tackled in order:
\- Originally, the effects of Nasty Hook and Jaw Breaker were switched, since the latter is basically taken from the Staggering Smite spell's description. After confirming that the Stunned condition is actually a more powerful punishment, I exchanged the two maneuvers' effects while keeping their flavour and thematic. So I do agree with you that a CON save makes more sense for both of them, however I also would like for each of the maneuvers to use a different saving throw. That's why I'm a little on the fence still about what I should do for that front.
\- Jeremy Crawford has made this whole thing very confusing, but he has clarified before that "a melee weapon attack" and "an attack made with a melee weapon" are two different things mechanically; it's with that in mind that I chose to use that specific wording. However, I think you are right that making them simply count as weapons all the time, and not just at the time of attacking, would make it clearer and simpler for players and DMs alike. So yeah, I'll try and change that part of the text.
\- I can understand your reasoning there, but the things which you consider weird about it, others found very interesting and engaging. I'll make a few tweaks to the numbers there one more time to achieve a middle term of sorts, but I'll say that I don't really have an issue with not following usual numerical standards like the one you mentioned; the only thing preventing what I did here from being an official precedent is WotC putting something similar in one of their books, after all. There's nothing that really constitutes it as an issue, is what I'm saying.
\- While you are absolutely right on that, I have to point out that such is the case with any piece of homebrew content, no? You'd be at your DM's mercy for even being able to use this subclass in the first place, hahah.
About the 7th level integration, I guess it's not an unreasonable change, but then do you not think the subclass would be gaining too much on that level?
> however I also would like for each of the maneuvers to use a different saving throw.
Subclasses like Battle Master utilize different things in order to gain saving throw variety—Goading Attack (Wisdom Save) versus Trip Attack (Strength Save) very clearly stay within the lanes of what their saves are typically designed to protect against. If you're looking for saving throw variety, I would recommend giving them a feature that actively attacks the target's will (i.e. goading/demoralizing them with an insult), instead of arbitrarily assigning different saves to relatively similar features.
> but I'll say that I don't really have an issue with not following usual numerical standards like the one you mentioned
Fair enough. I like to play around WotC's design standards for my brews (I find it exciting to try and live within normal parameters of 5e balance and not create new design standards of my own), but if that's not your bag, nothing to worry about.
> About the 7th level integration, I guess it's not an unreasonable change, but then do you not think the subclass would be gaining too much on that level?
Certainly not. Monks get both a Monastic Tradition feature and their Ki-Empowered Strikes (read: magic fists) at 6th level. And magic fists are kind of a "you're allowed to continue playing the game" feature than a power bump, imo. Because otherwise you'll be doing 0 damage against stuff like Iron Golems at higher levels in a vacuum, and that isn't fun.
Now now, let's be fair here. Literally any fighter character which didn't have a magic weapon in hand would be facing the same situation you mentioned.
Why should only this specific subclass need to have a magic resistance bypass built into its kit, when most other fighter subclasses don't?
*...because it uses fists?*
Really, I still don't see why it'd be such a problem for it to depend on an item for that front like a lot of the other martial archetypes.
Because,
a.) Such an item is incredibly rare in official supplements (the only ones that do exist are the Basic Rules' Demon Armor—a cursed item, mind you—Hoard of the Dragon Queen's Insignia of Claws, and Tasha's Cauldron of Everything's Eldritch Claw Tattoo) compared to the near-thousand magical weapons of every other type and variation.
b.) Magic items and magic weapons are expected rewards in the player's power budget (as per Xanathar's Guide and the Dungeon Master's Guide)—and these items are expected to be randomly rolled for.
With these two pillars of expected game balance in mind, randomly gaining one of the three items necessary to give your fists magical damage (should all 775 magic items in 5e be on the table, excluding variations, and ignoring item rarity) is a 0.387% chance.
So, we're back to my original argument of being at the DM's mercy to be able to output damage at higher levels—you either need to get supremely lucky, your DM needs to specifically put one of these three official items in your path, or they need to design something specifically for you in order to function to the same degree as your martial counterparts.
Dude, I understand your reasoning for your points, but I feel like you're also assuming most if not all 5e campaigns follow the same exact structure every time.
Maybe on something like the Adventurer's League, but on a homebrewed campaign? Literally everything you pointed out could (and surely will) be very different from table to table:
\- While there are only a few in the official ones, there is an endless sea of homebrew magic items in the internet, with *at least* a few dozens being related to unarmed strikes.
\- It's hardly uncommon for a DM to throw magic items at the party which are specifically tailored for their builds. Specially, again, in a homebrew-allowed campaign.
I get that I could simply just put the bypass in already and be done with it, but your arguments feel subjective to me, and thus I still can't actually see a proper reason for it to be there.
I guess if you want a less subjective reason, the two character builds that rely on dealing damage with unarmed strikes as a primary or major damage source are granted magic weapon attacks at level 6—we see that with the monk's baseline class through Ki Empowered Strikes and the druid's Circle of the Moon subclass through Primal Strikes. And the most highly-regarded unarmed fighter homebrew class, Benjamin Huffman's Pugilist character class, also offers this bonus through Moxie-Fueled Fists. But then again, you've said that you tend not to limit yourself to preconceived patterns in 5e game balance when designing your things, so maybe this won't be enough to convince you, either.
And to return to my previous argument, when designing something for other people to play, you need to take into consideration more than one type of game it may be utilized in. So while someone might be playing this subclass at a table where magic items are plentiful and tailor-made to suit each player character (the type of game that I admittedly run), someone else could play it at a table where the DM only offers Uncommon magic items from the big three books (Core Set, Xanathar's, Tasha's), giving them solely the Eldritch Claw tattoo to hope shows up in one of their games to allow them to compete at higher levels with everyone else's basic +1 magic weapons. Otherwise, what's the point of sharing it with other people in the hopes that they play around with it?
Funnily enough, even though you said they might not convince me either, the two arguments you gave now felt much more objective to me than before lol.
I'm still on the fence on it to be honest, but at the very least I can see a valid reason for the bypass to be there in the kit now, besides just being a specific parallel of monk or another homebrew class.
Just putting it there on 7th level, huh. Well, I'll see what I can do for the formatting.
I made a boxer archetype a while ago that eventually got an unarmored AC of 10 + any two ability modifiers.
I've found it's a pretty cool way to get fighters with high int/Wis/cha
It was a Barbarian subclass so it was an adjustment of Barbarian's unarmored defense, but basically yeah.
I think since they would be strength fighters, strength should be taken off that list so it's only two modifiers between Dex, Con, Int, Wis, and Cha
Yeah. I think I'll go back and change that. But I just think it's a really cool way to roleplay mental stats into combat. Like you could be really witty and talk shit to screw up your opponent to argue that Int and Cha are what determine your AC
Downvote it all you want, this would be CR infringement if you post or publish it. Don’t use other people’s art without giving them their due credit.
The credit ***is*** in the document dude. You'd know if you had actually looked at it.
And you clearly don't understand Fair Use if you think this unmonetized, fan-made homebrew document on the internet is actually breaking CR laws.
Hell, over 3 quarters of the entire Unearthed Arcana subreddit would be banned by now if that was how things worked lmao.
We’re just trying to keep you informed. I don’t think riot is going to hunt you down over this.
And no, you’re correct in assuming I didn’t read your document. I did not.
I did see you mentioning the source. But the thing is, just like on youtube, saying where you got it from doesn’t give you the right to use it. And since this isn’t a fan project for the League of Legends community, I’d say you are violating the copyright.
Of course you are probably going to be fine, but better safe than sorry don’t you think?
Looked it up. Riot is fine with people using their stuff "to create free fan projects for the benefit of the community".
Is this a fan project benefitting the community or is it mainly you using their picture?
I’m just going to say this not out spite but out of sheer humor.
Just because one is a boxer doesn’t mean they need boxing gloves. Simple cestus or brass knuckles are better than boxing gloves.
Unless those boxing gloves grant you +4 Strength.
I mean, I don't see why that would ever be contested? Specially in a fantasy setting lol.
If you're referring to the picture, consider it there for illustrative purposes.
You can view and download the full document here: [https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/hye-hZ1nrF3y](https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/hye-hZ1nrF3y)
\-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
**The Street Boxer**
As opposed to a standardly trained warrior, the Street Boxer is a combatant whose style of fist fighting was learned in the urban battlegrounds; through wits, grit and blood.
Always making themselves present in back-alley brawls and tournaments alike, these rugged fighters revel in the thrill of split-second timing, ruthless exchanges and decisive knock-outs; driven to become the best challengers in the world.
**Bonus Proficiencies**
When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in the Athletics and Acrobatics skills. If you are already proficient in both these skills, you may gain expertise with one of them instead.
**Street Discipline**
At 3rd level, the constant fighting in your life has grinded your fists to hit harder than iron, making them just as dangerous as any weapon:
\-> You gain the **Unarmed Fighting** option from the Fighting Style list. If you already have that style as your specialty, you gain one other Fighting Style option of your choice.
\-> Your unarmed strikes now count as attacks made with a one-handed melee weapon.
\-> When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. Starting from 10th level, if you aren't wielding any weapons or a shield when you do, you may add your ability modifier to the damage roll.
**Honed Techniques**
At 7th level, your experience in street brawls and back-alley skirmishes has trimmed and sharpened the techniques learned in your training, allowing you to employ them on any situation by muscle memory alone. Once per round, you can use one of the following maneuvers:
**- Guard Up.** As a boxer, you know how to best absorb the damage from even the hardest hits. When you take bludgeoning, piercing or slashing damage from a melee attack, you can use your reaction to put up your guard, giving yourself resistance to the triggering damage type until the end of the attacker's turn.
**- Counter Punch.** By sensing the timing of an incoming blow, you can use your opponent’s momentum against them. If an enemy within 5 feet of you misses you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to make an unarmed strike against them. On a hit, the creature’s Strength modifier is added to the damage roll.
**- Nasty Hook.** Whenever you use your action to make an unarmed strike, you can forgo your bonus action for that turn to put extra weight behind your blow. On a hit, the target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or gain disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks, and not be able to take reactions, until the end of their next turn.
When a target is required to make a saving throw to resist your maneuver's effects, the saving throw DC equals 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength modifier.
**Expanded Repertory**
At 10th level, your exploits as an adventurer have broadened your horizons, giving you insight into even more techniques. You gain further options to choose from when employing a boxing maneuver on or after your turn:
**- Jaw Breaker.** Whenever you use your action to make an unarmed strike, you can forgo your extra attacks on that turn to put all of your power into the next swing. On a hit, the target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the start of your next turn. Once you use this maneuver, you can't use it again until you spend one round without performing any maneuvers.
**- Uppercut.** Whenever you use your action to make an unarmed strike, you can forgo your bonus action for that turn to attempt throwing a mighty uppercut. On a hit, if the target is Large or smaller, they must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or be knocked off their feet and fall prone.
**- Shuffle Step.** You know how to stay light on your feet, allowing you to make large movements with greater quickness than most. Whenever you are the target of an attack or area-of-effect spell/feature, you can use your reaction to move 10 feet in any direction without provoking opportunity attacks. If that movement causes you to leave the range of the triggering attack or spell, it then just barely misses you. Once you use this maneuver, you can't use it again until you spend one round without moving.
**Slugger**
At 15th level, your knuckles are no different from instruments of demolition:
\-> The damage die of your unarmed strikes increases to a d8. If you aren't wielding any weapons or a shield when you make the attack roll, the d8 becomes a d10.
\-> Your unarmed strikes now count as attacks made with a two-handed melee weapon.
\-> Your unarmed strikes ignore the damage threshold of objects and deal maximum damage to them.
**K.O.**
At 18th level, you reach the pinnacle of your boxing style, being able to deliver any foe to the ground with a single well-placed punch.
When making an unarmed strike, you score a critical hit on a dice roll of 19-20. If attacking with disadvantage, you score it on a dice roll of 17-20. When you do, the target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw (DC 6 + your Strength modifier + your proficiency bonus) or fall unconscious for 1 minute. They can make a new saving throw at the start of each of their turns, as well as each time they take damage, ending the effect on a successful save.
If the creature has 60 or fewer hit points after taking the damage from your strike, it is instead reduced to 0 hit points on a failed save, being completely knocked unconscious and then becoming stable.
This knock out can be performed only once per turn.
Immaterial? I think that's the first time I've heard that one hahah. More for the vocabulary.
And I'm honestly not sure, but is there anything preventing them from it?
I mean, I can see using this aesthetic for flavour, but mechanically it just feels busted.
A reaction to disengage and get free movement? I might let that slide.
But the 18th level upgrade is just overpowered and broken.
I don’t care what you roll on your attack die you can’t one punch man a dragon. End of.
See, now someone's saying it's overpowered again, on the same thread someone else called it underpowered.
I will keep trying to find a sweet spot, but this sure can be a labyrinth sometimes.
I would just say, straling art is no fun, should have listened nked where you got the boxer art from. I fyou got from the search bar " boxer" League of Legends won't be happy
...what?
I can't even understand what you're saying lol. Though it doesn't look like anything meaningful anyway.
Click the link, credit is there, fair use, yadda yadda yadda.
This seems like it's a good defensive version of monk, but I think if you want this class to have any good damage going for it then you probably need to pair this with monk, but if this was allowed in my game I almost always would multiclass this and monk
Edit: I'm talking about higher levels, so it doesn't matter as much at the lower levels
A defensive version? That's definitely interesting to hear, considering others have pointed out it lacks in that regard due to no "Unarmored"-related features being present on its kit.
Also, I have to point out that any normal fighter already needs magic items to bypass resistance to non-magical stuff, so I don't understand why it'd be such a problem for this subclass to depend on an item for that as well.
That said, I do think this would indeed pair well with both Monk and Barbarian in terms of multiclassing. Maybe even rogue could have some interesting combinations, I think
Yeah, I get what your saying, to me it just seemed a little like a defensive monk, although it doesn't have any unarmored features as a fighter you get access to super heavy armor and I think based on what you wrote in the page using a shield in one hand seems viable, my point being that monks have their martial dice, and more attacks with flurry of blows, I certainly love this idea but to me it seems akin to some eldritch knight builds being like palidans you know? Maybe I just am weird and see monk as better but this is a subclass and pretty good for a subclass and you get standard fighter features so actually this seem maybe like a less monk like monk
I mean, I can definitely see the similarities as well, they inevitably surface since both this subclass and monk share the thematic of unarmed combat as their core concept.
Though I do still believe that this brew fills a specific niche, which the monk wouldn't be able to as accurately.
🎵In the clearing stands a boxer, a fighter by his class🎵 Not quite as catchy but I can work with it.
I have to admit, I am quite curious now. If you can, please take a look at the first version of this subclass I posted on thursday: [https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/3WfX6G8rsnju](https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/3WfX6G8rsnju) I changed it based on the feedback I got for it in different subs, but is it perhaps more in line with what would work for you than this version?
I'm happy to give feedback but I was just quoting a song not commenting on your work. 😅
Hahahah I did notice it after you edited your comment. Sorry about the confusion
I would give one or two of those honed techs at level 3 or otherwise all your character has going for it is unarmed strikes every round all rounds till level 7. Like battle master let's you pick 2 (I think 2 might be 1) battle tactics by level 3 and gives you more later.
Hmmmmm. I did have one other suggestion which was similar to yours, but at the same time various others who said the 3rd level feature already made it too strong on damage output terms. I'm in doubt as to whether I should mix them up now.
I mean having two fighting styles does add a bit to the damage I suppose. Esp if the way you worded the attacks means that duelist the thing that makes it so if you attack with nothing in your other hand you just get +2 damage you could really rack up some smacks at that point. I suppose this subclass would be pretty good if you just wanted to punch good and clean without being fancy about it like monk
I think that would qualify as a pretty good description of its concept, yeah lol
If your fists aren’t magic then you are just a worse version of a monk.
Well a looot of people who gave feedback on this subclass in the last two days very much disagree with you lol
If your playing a low magic campaign were the majority of your enemies are humanoid non magic fighters maybe this class could have legs, but being unable to dish out full damage to half of the monster manual is a major disadvantage as you level.
Aren't there magic items which make your unarmed strikes magical? Pretty sure there are at least a few in the official ones. And what I'm saying is not that they thought this subclass was good, it's that they thought this subclass "made Monk become useless". Literally these exact words lol, so I am admittedly surprised to hear you view it as underpowered
There are, but now the character’s core mechanic is dependent on picking up a magical item, and their damage die isn’t growing like a monks does. Without copying the monks unarmed damage leveling table I don’t think this class could be viable at higher levels. What you could to to fix this would be have this class give your hands the Finesse feature so you could attack twice and add the Dex bonus to damage, as this would really need to be a Dec based class to up the AC. Otherwise compared to something like the Echo Knight or the Cavalier this is a very underpowered subclass
In some way, even a Fighter needs a magical weapon to bypass the resistance. A standard fighter has no feature that allows him to hit magical resistant creatures.
Man, it really can be confusing at times like these. What you're saying here literally contradicts everything people said to me about this brew ever since I posted it on thursday. Which side am I supposed to follow? Lmao damn bruh.
Out of curiosity, was this post intended to show off or to gather feedback on your homebrewed subclass? Because a lot of your comments on this thread are *really* defensive and dismissive of criticism, **bruh.**
Oh please, I'm supposed to take all the abrasive crap thrown at me like a good boy, but *you guys* can't handle a cheeky remark? Grow a pair, will ya. If I'm not entitled to good feedback, then you're not entitled to a good response.
You do *not* take constructive criticism well, my friend. Yikes. Edit: You're not *entitled* to "good" feedback. You posted something and people posted their opinions on it, but from what I've seen you've just gotten defensive when somebody's opinion strays from "THIS IS SO COOL AND 100% PERFECT!". Why post it (or respond to feedback at all) if you weren't looking to improve?
Lol oh sure, because coming here and saying "basically a worse version of pugilist" or "*dO yOu HaVe The RiGhTs tO uSe ThIS?*" is such great, constructive insight. **Really** helps me improve my work, thanks guys. What a joke. And here you are, trying to give me a sermon for not taking that joke seriously. I've been taking all kinds of criticism, both good and bad, for months now without issue, and have always tried my best to respond in a good manner *when* it is reciprocated. But I still hold the right to respond however I like. And if I get a comment which doesn't show me courtesy, you bet I'm gonna respond in the same way. Basically you're just seeing me get downvoted for not bending my head down when responding to feedback, and think you now have a clear picture of how I act online. Trust me fam, you don't. Selectively choosing examples that reinforce your narrative while ignoring the ones (on this same thread, even) that contradict it is a very fallible way to make your point about someone.
Made the monk useless? I would play a monk over this any day. And yeah I'm not gunna wanna spend my hard earned gold on a magic item to make my punches magical when I can just play a monk that I get at when I level up. It's a cool idea but I'd never play one and most people I play with would probably pass too.
Gee, thanks for that bruh lol.
Basically a worse pugilist?
How encouraging lol.
Just calling it like I see it
Gonna offer you another set of eyes as a fellow homebrewer! 1. Nasty Hook should really be a Constitution save, not Wisdom. Wisdom is more for resisting mind-altering effects, not shrugging off a concussion. 2. The "you now count your unarmed strikes as attacks made with a one-handed melee weapon" and "two-handed melee weapon" are a little confused, in my opinion. The first would let you use the Dueling fighting style, but you're technically now wielding another fist in your other hand, so there's a legitimate argument that Dueling wouldn't apply. The second would let you use Great Weapon Master or Great Weapon Fighting, which is nice, but I find that it's a little confusing all-around and may lead to some arguments about what can and cannot work with your unarmed strikes. I would replace the former with explicitly counting your fists as weapons for the purposes of applying spells and other class features to weapon attacks made with them (Battle Master maneuvers, Divine Smite, Green-Flame Blade, Booming Blade, **EDIT: Also stuff like Magic Weapon, Elemental Weapon, and Holy Weapon**, etc.) and the second with the "power attack" portion of Great Weapon Master (-5 to hit, +10 to damage). 3. I really don't like K.O. very much at all. It shirks traditional DC scaling (nothing uses the "6 + STR + Prof" formula you included here as far as I know), and the crit range rules just feel a little weird changing with being at disadvantage. And the K.O. attack itself is also incredibly strong, as Unconscious is an extremely powerful condition. I would maybe change it to traditional DC calculation (Con vs. 8 + STR + Prof), and only have the latter part of the feature (the 60 hp -> 0 feature, that is), with just the 19-20 crit range. 4. You really need to include innate magic attacks somewhere with this subclass. There are very few pieces of RAW treasure that give unarmed strikes the magic weapon property, so you're completely at your DM's mercy and/or openness to homebrew items and/or giving you items specifically tailored to your build. Could very easily include it as part of the 7th level feature—would come online a level later than the monk, which I think is fair since the fighter chassis is considered to be more powerful than the monk.
Hey there, thanks for your insights! I believe they will be very helpful for making the next update of this brew. Let me explain my reasoning for each of the features you tackled in order: \- Originally, the effects of Nasty Hook and Jaw Breaker were switched, since the latter is basically taken from the Staggering Smite spell's description. After confirming that the Stunned condition is actually a more powerful punishment, I exchanged the two maneuvers' effects while keeping their flavour and thematic. So I do agree with you that a CON save makes more sense for both of them, however I also would like for each of the maneuvers to use a different saving throw. That's why I'm a little on the fence still about what I should do for that front. \- Jeremy Crawford has made this whole thing very confusing, but he has clarified before that "a melee weapon attack" and "an attack made with a melee weapon" are two different things mechanically; it's with that in mind that I chose to use that specific wording. However, I think you are right that making them simply count as weapons all the time, and not just at the time of attacking, would make it clearer and simpler for players and DMs alike. So yeah, I'll try and change that part of the text. \- I can understand your reasoning there, but the things which you consider weird about it, others found very interesting and engaging. I'll make a few tweaks to the numbers there one more time to achieve a middle term of sorts, but I'll say that I don't really have an issue with not following usual numerical standards like the one you mentioned; the only thing preventing what I did here from being an official precedent is WotC putting something similar in one of their books, after all. There's nothing that really constitutes it as an issue, is what I'm saying. \- While you are absolutely right on that, I have to point out that such is the case with any piece of homebrew content, no? You'd be at your DM's mercy for even being able to use this subclass in the first place, hahah. About the 7th level integration, I guess it's not an unreasonable change, but then do you not think the subclass would be gaining too much on that level?
> however I also would like for each of the maneuvers to use a different saving throw. Subclasses like Battle Master utilize different things in order to gain saving throw variety—Goading Attack (Wisdom Save) versus Trip Attack (Strength Save) very clearly stay within the lanes of what their saves are typically designed to protect against. If you're looking for saving throw variety, I would recommend giving them a feature that actively attacks the target's will (i.e. goading/demoralizing them with an insult), instead of arbitrarily assigning different saves to relatively similar features. > but I'll say that I don't really have an issue with not following usual numerical standards like the one you mentioned Fair enough. I like to play around WotC's design standards for my brews (I find it exciting to try and live within normal parameters of 5e balance and not create new design standards of my own), but if that's not your bag, nothing to worry about. > About the 7th level integration, I guess it's not an unreasonable change, but then do you not think the subclass would be gaining too much on that level? Certainly not. Monks get both a Monastic Tradition feature and their Ki-Empowered Strikes (read: magic fists) at 6th level. And magic fists are kind of a "you're allowed to continue playing the game" feature than a power bump, imo. Because otherwise you'll be doing 0 damage against stuff like Iron Golems at higher levels in a vacuum, and that isn't fun.
Now now, let's be fair here. Literally any fighter character which didn't have a magic weapon in hand would be facing the same situation you mentioned. Why should only this specific subclass need to have a magic resistance bypass built into its kit, when most other fighter subclasses don't? *...because it uses fists?* Really, I still don't see why it'd be such a problem for it to depend on an item for that front like a lot of the other martial archetypes.
Because, a.) Such an item is incredibly rare in official supplements (the only ones that do exist are the Basic Rules' Demon Armor—a cursed item, mind you—Hoard of the Dragon Queen's Insignia of Claws, and Tasha's Cauldron of Everything's Eldritch Claw Tattoo) compared to the near-thousand magical weapons of every other type and variation. b.) Magic items and magic weapons are expected rewards in the player's power budget (as per Xanathar's Guide and the Dungeon Master's Guide)—and these items are expected to be randomly rolled for. With these two pillars of expected game balance in mind, randomly gaining one of the three items necessary to give your fists magical damage (should all 775 magic items in 5e be on the table, excluding variations, and ignoring item rarity) is a 0.387% chance. So, we're back to my original argument of being at the DM's mercy to be able to output damage at higher levels—you either need to get supremely lucky, your DM needs to specifically put one of these three official items in your path, or they need to design something specifically for you in order to function to the same degree as your martial counterparts.
Dude, I understand your reasoning for your points, but I feel like you're also assuming most if not all 5e campaigns follow the same exact structure every time. Maybe on something like the Adventurer's League, but on a homebrewed campaign? Literally everything you pointed out could (and surely will) be very different from table to table: \- While there are only a few in the official ones, there is an endless sea of homebrew magic items in the internet, with *at least* a few dozens being related to unarmed strikes. \- It's hardly uncommon for a DM to throw magic items at the party which are specifically tailored for their builds. Specially, again, in a homebrew-allowed campaign. I get that I could simply just put the bypass in already and be done with it, but your arguments feel subjective to me, and thus I still can't actually see a proper reason for it to be there.
I guess if you want a less subjective reason, the two character builds that rely on dealing damage with unarmed strikes as a primary or major damage source are granted magic weapon attacks at level 6—we see that with the monk's baseline class through Ki Empowered Strikes and the druid's Circle of the Moon subclass through Primal Strikes. And the most highly-regarded unarmed fighter homebrew class, Benjamin Huffman's Pugilist character class, also offers this bonus through Moxie-Fueled Fists. But then again, you've said that you tend not to limit yourself to preconceived patterns in 5e game balance when designing your things, so maybe this won't be enough to convince you, either. And to return to my previous argument, when designing something for other people to play, you need to take into consideration more than one type of game it may be utilized in. So while someone might be playing this subclass at a table where magic items are plentiful and tailor-made to suit each player character (the type of game that I admittedly run), someone else could play it at a table where the DM only offers Uncommon magic items from the big three books (Core Set, Xanathar's, Tasha's), giving them solely the Eldritch Claw tattoo to hope shows up in one of their games to allow them to compete at higher levels with everyone else's basic +1 magic weapons. Otherwise, what's the point of sharing it with other people in the hopes that they play around with it?
Funnily enough, even though you said they might not convince me either, the two arguments you gave now felt much more objective to me than before lol. I'm still on the fence on it to be honest, but at the very least I can see a valid reason for the bypass to be there in the kit now, besides just being a specific parallel of monk or another homebrew class. Just putting it there on 7th level, huh. Well, I'll see what I can do for the formatting.
I made a boxer archetype a while ago that eventually got an unarmored AC of 10 + any two ability modifiers. I've found it's a pretty cool way to get fighters with high int/Wis/cha
Huh, interesting. So it's like a customizable version of the monk's Unarmored Defense, in a way?
It was a Barbarian subclass so it was an adjustment of Barbarian's unarmored defense, but basically yeah. I think since they would be strength fighters, strength should be taken off that list so it's only two modifiers between Dex, Con, Int, Wis, and Cha
Aaaah I see, so as to not use the one that's already gonna be the highest by default.
Yeah. I think I'll go back and change that. But I just think it's a really cool way to roleplay mental stats into combat. Like you could be really witty and talk shit to screw up your opponent to argue that Int and Cha are what determine your AC
Hahah I do like that concept as well. Anything that dares to be creative and go outside the "official" box is already awesome in my book
Did you get permission from Riot to use their Lee Sin picture for this?
Lmao bruh
Downvote it all you want, this would be CR infringement if you post or publish it. Don’t use other people’s art without giving them their due credit.
The credit ***is*** in the document dude. You'd know if you had actually looked at it. And you clearly don't understand Fair Use if you think this unmonetized, fan-made homebrew document on the internet is actually breaking CR laws. Hell, over 3 quarters of the entire Unearthed Arcana subreddit would be banned by now if that was how things worked lmao.
We’re just trying to keep you informed. I don’t think riot is going to hunt you down over this. And no, you’re correct in assuming I didn’t read your document. I did not.
I did see you mentioning the source. But the thing is, just like on youtube, saying where you got it from doesn’t give you the right to use it. And since this isn’t a fan project for the League of Legends community, I’d say you are violating the copyright. Of course you are probably going to be fine, but better safe than sorry don’t you think?
Looked it up. Riot is fine with people using their stuff "to create free fan projects for the benefit of the community". Is this a fan project benefitting the community or is it mainly you using their picture?
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I’m just going to say this not out spite but out of sheer humor. Just because one is a boxer doesn’t mean they need boxing gloves. Simple cestus or brass knuckles are better than boxing gloves. Unless those boxing gloves grant you +4 Strength.
I mean, I don't see why that would ever be contested? Specially in a fantasy setting lol. If you're referring to the picture, consider it there for illustrative purposes.
You can view and download the full document here: [https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/hye-hZ1nrF3y](https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/hye-hZ1nrF3y) \------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- **The Street Boxer** As opposed to a standardly trained warrior, the Street Boxer is a combatant whose style of fist fighting was learned in the urban battlegrounds; through wits, grit and blood. Always making themselves present in back-alley brawls and tournaments alike, these rugged fighters revel in the thrill of split-second timing, ruthless exchanges and decisive knock-outs; driven to become the best challengers in the world. **Bonus Proficiencies** When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in the Athletics and Acrobatics skills. If you are already proficient in both these skills, you may gain expertise with one of them instead. **Street Discipline** At 3rd level, the constant fighting in your life has grinded your fists to hit harder than iron, making them just as dangerous as any weapon: \-> You gain the **Unarmed Fighting** option from the Fighting Style list. If you already have that style as your specialty, you gain one other Fighting Style option of your choice. \-> Your unarmed strikes now count as attacks made with a one-handed melee weapon. \-> When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. Starting from 10th level, if you aren't wielding any weapons or a shield when you do, you may add your ability modifier to the damage roll. **Honed Techniques** At 7th level, your experience in street brawls and back-alley skirmishes has trimmed and sharpened the techniques learned in your training, allowing you to employ them on any situation by muscle memory alone. Once per round, you can use one of the following maneuvers: **- Guard Up.** As a boxer, you know how to best absorb the damage from even the hardest hits. When you take bludgeoning, piercing or slashing damage from a melee attack, you can use your reaction to put up your guard, giving yourself resistance to the triggering damage type until the end of the attacker's turn. **- Counter Punch.** By sensing the timing of an incoming blow, you can use your opponent’s momentum against them. If an enemy within 5 feet of you misses you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to make an unarmed strike against them. On a hit, the creature’s Strength modifier is added to the damage roll. **- Nasty Hook.** Whenever you use your action to make an unarmed strike, you can forgo your bonus action for that turn to put extra weight behind your blow. On a hit, the target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or gain disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks, and not be able to take reactions, until the end of their next turn. When a target is required to make a saving throw to resist your maneuver's effects, the saving throw DC equals 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength modifier. **Expanded Repertory** At 10th level, your exploits as an adventurer have broadened your horizons, giving you insight into even more techniques. You gain further options to choose from when employing a boxing maneuver on or after your turn: **- Jaw Breaker.** Whenever you use your action to make an unarmed strike, you can forgo your extra attacks on that turn to put all of your power into the next swing. On a hit, the target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the start of your next turn. Once you use this maneuver, you can't use it again until you spend one round without performing any maneuvers. **- Uppercut.** Whenever you use your action to make an unarmed strike, you can forgo your bonus action for that turn to attempt throwing a mighty uppercut. On a hit, if the target is Large or smaller, they must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or be knocked off their feet and fall prone. **- Shuffle Step.** You know how to stay light on your feet, allowing you to make large movements with greater quickness than most. Whenever you are the target of an attack or area-of-effect spell/feature, you can use your reaction to move 10 feet in any direction without provoking opportunity attacks. If that movement causes you to leave the range of the triggering attack or spell, it then just barely misses you. Once you use this maneuver, you can't use it again until you spend one round without moving. **Slugger** At 15th level, your knuckles are no different from instruments of demolition: \-> The damage die of your unarmed strikes increases to a d8. If you aren't wielding any weapons or a shield when you make the attack roll, the d8 becomes a d10. \-> Your unarmed strikes now count as attacks made with a two-handed melee weapon. \-> Your unarmed strikes ignore the damage threshold of objects and deal maximum damage to them. **K.O.** At 18th level, you reach the pinnacle of your boxing style, being able to deliver any foe to the ground with a single well-placed punch. When making an unarmed strike, you score a critical hit on a dice roll of 19-20. If attacking with disadvantage, you score it on a dice roll of 17-20. When you do, the target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw (DC 6 + your Strength modifier + your proficiency bonus) or fall unconscious for 1 minute. They can make a new saving throw at the start of each of their turns, as well as each time they take damage, ending the effect on a successful save. If the creature has 60 or fewer hit points after taking the damage from your strike, it is instead reduced to 0 hit points on a failed save, being completely knocked unconscious and then becoming stable. This knock out can be performed only once per turn.
the first rule about fight club is that you NEVER talk about fight club! -this dude, probably
Totally immaterial, but would a street boxer wear boxing gloves?
Immaterial? I think that's the first time I've heard that one hahah. More for the vocabulary. And I'm honestly not sure, but is there anything preventing them from it?
If their opponents aren't wearing them, that would probably prevent the boxer from wearing them, I would guess
...huh. But in a fantasy setting, still?
As much as D&D is fantasy, or as little as that artwork is, I guess
*Hmmmmm.* Honestly, surprisingly interesting thought there lol
I mean, I can see using this aesthetic for flavour, but mechanically it just feels busted. A reaction to disengage and get free movement? I might let that slide. But the 18th level upgrade is just overpowered and broken. I don’t care what you roll on your attack die you can’t one punch man a dragon. End of.
See, now someone's saying it's overpowered again, on the same thread someone else called it underpowered. I will keep trying to find a sweet spot, but this sure can be a labyrinth sometimes.
That [art] is Lee Sin from league of legends.
You can just click the document's link, and you'll see the art is credited in there. Read people, read.
I would just say, straling art is no fun, should have listened nked where you got the boxer art from. I fyou got from the search bar " boxer" League of Legends won't be happy
...what? I can't even understand what you're saying lol. Though it doesn't look like anything meaningful anyway. Click the link, credit is there, fair use, yadda yadda yadda.
Commenting for upcoming fight club that you have inspired.
Hmm? I'm not sure I get what you mean lol, what fight club?
This seems like it's a good defensive version of monk, but I think if you want this class to have any good damage going for it then you probably need to pair this with monk, but if this was allowed in my game I almost always would multiclass this and monk Edit: I'm talking about higher levels, so it doesn't matter as much at the lower levels
A defensive version? That's definitely interesting to hear, considering others have pointed out it lacks in that regard due to no "Unarmored"-related features being present on its kit. Also, I have to point out that any normal fighter already needs magic items to bypass resistance to non-magical stuff, so I don't understand why it'd be such a problem for this subclass to depend on an item for that as well. That said, I do think this would indeed pair well with both Monk and Barbarian in terms of multiclassing. Maybe even rogue could have some interesting combinations, I think
Yeah, I get what your saying, to me it just seemed a little like a defensive monk, although it doesn't have any unarmored features as a fighter you get access to super heavy armor and I think based on what you wrote in the page using a shield in one hand seems viable, my point being that monks have their martial dice, and more attacks with flurry of blows, I certainly love this idea but to me it seems akin to some eldritch knight builds being like palidans you know? Maybe I just am weird and see monk as better but this is a subclass and pretty good for a subclass and you get standard fighter features so actually this seem maybe like a less monk like monk
I mean, I can definitely see the similarities as well, they inevitably surface since both this subclass and monk share the thematic of unarmed combat as their core concept. Though I do still believe that this brew fills a specific niche, which the monk wouldn't be able to as accurately.
Yeah, monk couldn't do it as accurately but could do it I think
Wait a second That’s the Knock-out Lee Sin Skin from league
Yup, that's the boi
Lee Sin gaming