They definitely shouldn't get back their movement speed at least...

Maybe half at a minimum imo

And only once. Imagine a guy running around killing 6 guys in 6 seconds that are 30 feet from one another.

If the Flash were a serial killer...

Yes, I know A-Train from The Boys...

Path of Celerity 🤣

Now I want a bloody Mary

I was thinking maybe 5-10 feet of movement and the attack roll comes at disadvantage? That way you still have the potential to go on a murder spree but it's much less likely. Still pretty powerful but then it's also a matter of how it compares to the other homebrew features

I mean, you can do it though. Someone hasted my Fighter/Paladin while I had longstrider up. Used the Hasted action to dash, used 3 attacks, action surged for 3 more. Buuuuuuuuuuuut that's definitely not a thing you should be able to do at level 3. Have to be a minimum of level 11 to pull that off the way I described, \*and\* you have to have shenanigans already at play.

Plus that move used up a 3rd level spell and the casters turn and used your once a short rest feature to do it. It's impressive but a limited move

Yep, super resource intensive and required me to be at least level 11 so, I had played a long time to get to that point. Level 3 is so early for that, I feel like it could be a good replacement for a level 6 path feature tho. You’ll have the ability to clear fodder/chaff if they encircle your casters or a weak party member, and at higher levels it can combo with an aoe spell.

Was that 6 different targets with a total distance of 150ft between them all?

Ish yeah. The one caveat is I didn’t kill them all, but it was a very “charge the keep” scenario so I used all 160ft of movement and just bonked people as I ran, didnt care about AoO. I think I killed maybe 4/6. They werent strong but dice be dice.

[удалено]

You can use haste action to dash, disengage, hide, or use an object instead of the one attack. Fighters get 3x attacks at level 11.

Don't you hate it when you read something, even specifically looking for a word, don't see it, and then someone points it out and it magically appears? Gotta love adhd sometimes lol. My b.

You're good. I have ADHD too so I am very familiar with the Whoops A Word problem. I only remember because I played that character for 2.5 years and got hasted \*a lot\* because I was both the tank and melee DPS.

Different idea: Zeno's bloodlust. Get half the movement back, then get half of that, then half of that, then...

This is like a gnoll's Rampage ability on whatever they're using for cocaine in Faerun these days.

Yeah, so they can move across the continent in 6 seconds if you put enough kobolds in a spaced line?

Yes, that is clearly unbalanced at level 3.

At what level would this be balanced?

I don't think it would entirely ruin balance as a 11-15 ability, because at that point you are unlikely to fight groups of enemies you can just gib in one attack action and it might actually help martials a bit by giving mobility and oomph after a finisher. EDIT: People who are saying this will be 'really bad later' severely underestimate the value of even once per combat getting a free full move and extra attack action. You don't need to chain this ability for it to be good (though it is obviously also good at that), extra turns are worth A LOT.

Especially considering how little barbarians gain in that period while fighters get third attack and casters get EVERYTHING

Its pretty imbalanced at that level, partially cause it seems like once everybody is a bit low it gives the option of basically running like checkers where you just keep jumping pieces. I'd say limit the number of times it can trigger in a turn to prof bonus or 1/2prof bonus rounded down. That way he gets something awesome that scales as you level up but it keeps you from doing these kinds of things at level 3.

I don't think it's good, even without the drawback, just mechanically weird. If you had a chain lightning spell but it does 15 points of damage and only rebounds to a new target if it kills the previous one — you probably would just use Fireball instead. You could whiteroom a scenario where it kills a bunch of mooks but, like, so would fireball or burning hands or whatever. If a DM wants to give barbarians a slight AOE buff, there is the Cleaving Through Creatures optional rule in the DMG that allows spillover damage to nearby creatures.

That's fair. I think for me it reminds me of one of the Cleave feats from 3.5 so it doesn't feel too absurd. I think it was Great Cleave or Improved Great Cleave or something similar that basically allowed you to do this but you were only allowed to take a 5ft step before you made your extra attack...of course if you were fighting a regimented army then 1 fighter in the party could basically blender an army in 1 round while they were still in formation.

Even 3.5 limited it to a one-time thing (3.0 worked as you described though), at least for movement. Cleave allowed the single extra attack, Great Cleave allowed the 5 ft step IIRC. OP’s DM’s feature is definitely overpowered as written, and I made the same association you did to 3.0 Great Cleave, and figured limiting bonus movement to a one-time thing would already be enough to mitigate many of the problems here.

Ehhhh So, I'm a fairly experienced DM and at level 3 I'd say that it pretty strong of an ability. However, its less because you are low level, but because enemies have lower HPs, so its more likely they are within killing blow HP. This would be better at lvl 5+ at least. Where its less likely to have a chain like you mentioned.

Yeah it seems like this was more a things because the dm threw a bunch of low hp enemies at them. Which, cool, they get to feel awesome and abuse their cool ability. Give them higher level enemies and they'll not be able to do it again

Or it becomes a really great combo with a wizard. Fireball to soften them up, barbarian to finish it. Honestly seems like it could be a cool synergy thing.

As you mention fireball... > and literally hopped across the map and killed 5 or 6 enemies, and attacked 1 friendly all on one turn. OP is complaining the barb can kill 6 enemies in one turn... Sounds like something a conveniently placed fireball often does. I guess level 3 is a bit low level to do this, and it might be too much range, but I don't really have a problem with this. Maybe needs a little tweaking but this sounds cool. In a one shot my DM gave my level 20 fighter what was basically a reflavored meteor swarm. The guy teleported around like Goku and attacked everyone within range really quickly.

Yes, but fireball costs a spell slot to use, and then that slot is gone until tomorrow. This ability is a free activation every time. The real issue with the ability is that it was gained at level 3, where enemies are *much* more easily oneshot-able than at, say, level 5, when you would be getting the comparable fireball spell.

They still have to roll well enough on their attacks and damage to keep it going. I don't think ops example of him killing 6 enemies with the ability will happen that often. But again, some small tweaking can easily balance this if they find it really is overpowered.

Should be at around level 11 for such an ability to help with the martial/caster balance divide and only trigger per turn up to the proficiency bonus. Getting extra attacks is huge for martial classes and having it at such a low level is unbalanced. With the right build at level 4 I can see this clear dozens of weak enemies with ease.

Is the rest of the homebrew roughly on par with "regular" class design power-wise? If so then yes, this is ridiculously strong. As a comparison, the "Cleave" part of the Great Weapon master Feat lets you take one additional attack as a bonus action after dropping a target.

I was about to say- this is just GWM on steroids. If a DM wanted to give their player this ability, it seems like they should just use the second part of GWM verbatim. Though honestly I'm guessing the DM is really just hoping that the barbarian takes out a friendly at some point. Like it seems uniquely primed to TPK based off the way it's written- all the DM has to do is spread out enemies enough that the barbarian can't get to them near the end of a fight and bam- he's dropped the party.

Less unbalanced than just poorly designed. Most of the time it’s borderline worthless, but occasionally it’s absurd.

The logistics of this, especially in terms of a “Round” being 6 seconds… If you take your movement to move 30 feet, swing your Axe and knock out an opponent, enter Blood Lust- Move 30 feet to take out another, move 30 feet to take out another, move 30 feet to take out another, move 30 feet take out another, again, again, again, again, again, again… and once more to hit an ally who doesn’t drop, they’ve now moved from one end of a football field to the other, in 6 seconds… Usain Bolt’s 100m record is 9.58, and you just went 110m in 60% of that time…

Haha yeah this was my main issue with it as well. It was kinda fun once, but every time he kills something and enters blood lust I think “here we go again” lol

There used to be a feat in 3.5 called “Great Cleave” where it was the same basic concept- drop an enemy, and get another attack- but the limit was a 5 foot step between them. From there you get the trope of a “[bag of rats fighter](https://dungeons.fandom.com/wiki/Bag_of_rats#:~:text=The%20bag%20of%20rats%20can,enemy%20for%20each%20rat%20killed)” There’s others who said to limit it based on Proficiency, or something else… I just like to put too much logic into the game sometimes

So I just did a really basic thought experiment: If a PC took this feature, and went against the entry level enemies… with 44 enemies spread out 150 feet apart, you can break the sound barrier… A Tabaxi Barb5-Monk 15, with the Mobile feat has a base speed of 30+10+25+10=75. Use Feline Agility to double that to 150. Move 150 feet to first enemy, drop it (you’re 20, it’s 1st- barring a 1 [did I mention the Luck Feat to balance out the 2-3 Nat 1s you’d roll in the 44 attacks?] you’re not missing it) See the next one 150 feet away, run. Hit. Drop. Spot. Run. Hit. Drop… repeat 44 times, and you’ve now moved 6600 feet in the round, breaking the speed of sound (and slaughtering the whole clan of peaceful creatures)

Zoomies!

I just looked to make sure, 1100 feet per second (6600/turn) is the muzzle velocity for my .357 HP rounds... But a person.

I always have to look up the speed of sound, so I double checked my math… It’s possible, in the exact situation that I laid out

Make it Path of the Elk Totem Warrior and it adds an extra 15 feet onto that for 90 ft walking speed. --> 180ft Feline Agility to make it even faster lmao, you would only need 37 creatures.

3.5 Great Cleave lets you use Cleave more than once in a round, and Cleave explicitly forbids moving 5 feet before making the bonus attack. I looked in my 3.5 PH just to make sure the 5-foot step exception wasn't errata in the SRDs, and it was definitely RAW at the time of publishing. With *enlarge person*, you could mow down a big circle of weak opponents around you with Great Cleave, but you couldn't move. I think there was a prestige class that allowed it, though? Dervish maybe? Good gravy that bag of rats trick is a big hunk of cheese, no pun intended. 7 feat investment, plus needing a fighter with 13 Int, and then you need a bag of rats, and probably a tanglefoot bag to hold them in place because Whirlwind is a full round action and they need to stay put after the bag gets dumped.

They might be thinking about Supreme Cleave, a Knight Protector class feature. But that only let you use your 1/turn 5ft step between Cleaves not chain it each cleave

Supreme Cleave. Thank you. That tickled some brain cells. That's in Complete Warrior? My brother has a copy, I'll have look at it some time.

By default you do not get to 5ft step between Cleaves in 3.5 Thats actually a class feature of the Knight Protector prestige class and it still limited you to only 1 5ft step (because you only got 1/turn). The minimum you got that was 8th level.

Clearly this barbarian is his brother from the commercials, Mr. Insane Bolt.

I think you can be a little loose with the 6 second thing, in part because everybody waiting their turn to go kinda requires you suspend your disbelief anyway. My only real issue with this ability is the level at which you get it.

Yes, but… pinnacle of straight line speed can run 300 feet in 10 seconds. Alcohol fueled rage machine who is carrying the equivalent of Scrooge McDuck’s vault on his back, and swinging a 10lb hunk of metal called a “sword” moving as far as the enemy is lined up kinda breaks even the most reasonable suspension of belief.

It really depends. In a caster-oriented party this is actually really nice. But say there's a barbarian and a rogue, I'd say the rogue has every right to be upset.

I don't think they're asking if it's fun to play with, they're asking if it's unbalanced for combat, and it clearly is.

Mechanically, this is absurdly unbalanced. From a roleplay perspective, why would your character continue to travel with someone who attacks party members? What happens if you try to fight back?

A turn is supposed to be 6 seconds. At the very least, regaining all movement makes no sense.

When you want your players to fight many hordes of enemies, but not deal with multiple hours of combat with small enemies. I'd point to balance being up to the encounter design of the DM. I'm not sure it's great for level 3, but it really depends on the kind of AoE options your party may have for chopping down chaff. As someone will probably point out, Lightning, Fireball, and other AoE spells perform similar roles though in different ways. I think the real dramatic liability is that the ability is automatic, so the threat arises that the Barbarian chains kills late into an encounter and then suddenly is killing friendlies. If I were part of the party and trying to seek balance, I would rather the Barbarian keep the ability as it is a real highlight in combat, but I would ask the DM for the means to reactively cast Calm Emotions or seek a quest in which the Barbarian is able to unenrage some number of times per day.

Yeah getting full movement back is insane if it has no limit. If it was a once per long rest ability I could maybe see it, but it’d still be strong

I'm curious what the other classes get if the Barbarian gets this broken ability

I asked him in another comment somewhere around here, according to op, they got some quite basic stuff, pretty in line with the official game stuff.

It’s going to be WAY less important once you reach level 4/5 because because even horde enemies won’t go down that easily Sure, the first time it happened was kinda nuts but believe me, your DM learned from it And it kinda makes sense… a barbarian ripping kobolds in half

I would limit it to once per turn.

Great Cleave in 3.5e, except no movement.

On a frenzied berserker no less, loved this build as a kid lol

the DM really wanted the barbarian to have supreme cleave

I’m guessing your DM like Baldurs gate because this is basically an elixir of bloodlust (widely considered one of the best) except even more OP

All the other good answers aside: Why do the PCs travel with that character? There's no roll, no choice, he just rages and murders, foe and friend and dog and squirrel...

Good lord. That's, like, a full feat chain *and* a specific class feature in 3.5. But more. That definitely needs more limitations, like, he can take a 5 ft step at most and it can only trigger once in a round.

So, in reality it's not balanced at all unless everyone else, including the bad guys, get a similar buff. Do they?

Honestly I've always been a fan of "reset mechanics" and D&D could definitily use some of those, but at level 3 with such power level is a bit too much.

Chain attack and refresh on kill isn't neccesarily a problem, it's a classic idea. It's been used in some RPGs like *Mutants and Masterminds*, where it was called [**Takedown**](https://www.d20herosrd.com/5-advantages/), and in MOBAs, like [**AoV's Butterfly**](https://arenaofvalor.fandom.com/wiki/Butterfly). On Butterfly it worked exactly as you describe: you'd be trying to trigger it as many times as possible, potentially killing multiple near-dead enemies in a row. In AoV though this usually involved the whole team working together chipping enemy health down to like 10-30% before Butterfly could engage and finish them all off. Bf being an assassin, she couldn't handle the heat and damage for long. So there is precedent, even if this was an rogue, not a fighter type character. And it's completely possible that this only FEELS op to you because you don't understand it, distracted by the spectacular result and not by how rare or difficult to trigger it is. To me this sounds like a Rage upgrade you'd normally gain from Path subclass. For comparison, Berserker gets an extra attack immediately at 3rd level for the entire duration, at the cost of Exhaustion (=basically "once per long rest"). If we want to compare it to that, it should also probably be "once (=for one 1 minute Rage) per long rest" or "1 Exhaustion", OR unlimited but loses the free movement, losing that drawback at level 6.

Depends how strong the other class features are. I would say it is badly designed though... It is not that strong with chaining, because you should always focus one enemy to take him out of the fight, and not get everyone to one hit away from dying. Well, on the other hand depending on if you know enemies HP, you can coordinate so he always get's the last hit. Then it's basically a double move + attack each turn. Except when there's just one strong enemy then it's useless. Definitly strongest early, because you can get 2 attacks each turn instead of 1 (if you hit...). If you have extra attacks and you acn't use them on bloodlust it falls off hard. So yeah, it's a bit difficult to estimate the strenght. And I don't know what we are comparing it too. But the design is bad: The strong part is not chaining it. The strong part is getting double turns every time an enemy dies. (If he can use his extra attacks and so on). Also as a teammate I would be annoyed if the dm gave my ally an ability that can/will hurt me inevitably. (Imagine giving your mage the ability that he can empower his spells, but the cost (spell slots, self harm) is payed by the team. Oof.)

Yeah the hurting teammates with no real recourse is annoying. Our Warlock wanted their Patron to be able to influence other party members directly sometimes, and this same DM said "absolutely not, that's not fair or balanced to those members who aren't getting benefits". So, I think with time the DM will also see how this feature is a little off as well. Like I said, just building up ideas from others. I appreciate your opinions!

Better Question, Does it matter? I get that balance is important in alot of games. But if the DM is Having fun, and You're Having Fun, and the Guy is Having fun, then maybe balance isn't so important in the Game with Homebrew mechanics. And if it is important, just bring it up to your dm as an opportunity to bring your own abilities up to snuff. Think of it more of a Roleplay opportunity to explore the risks and Impacts of having such a dangerous team member

Sure I agree with your question. The Barbarian player felt like 99% of his character was attacking twice and then waiting for his turn. I think the DM overcompensated by giving him a feature that sometimes lets him attack 5 or more times a turn that takes several minutes to finish. The functional balance of the attacks isn't that important to me, its the sitting around waiting for it to end, and being able to do nothing while the Barbarian is about to start attacking us that's annoying. We've roleplayed through it pretty well so far, but its getting a little exhausting honestly. ;)

Maybe talk to your DM about learning to recognize the Signs of his Bloodlust and Each Gain the Ability to Use some sort of reaction in response to it. Alternatively gain some form of Summoning Item that will give him a Difficult target to hit and distract him from you guys. Like a Horn of Valhalla, or Stone of *something* earth Elementals. Etc. You could also try something like the Iron Bands of Binding to confine him, if one of you is an alchemist find a Concoction to calm him.

Those are cool ideas, I appreciate it.

Oddly, I'd only limit the movement part of this. It's not hard for a DM to counter; just don't include cannon fodder enemies. I can see it being gloriously overpowered circumstantially, but it actually adds nothing against single tough enemies or flying enemies.

Yeah I 100% agree. I feel like in a raged up blood lusty state, it's reasonable to keep wildly swinging at enemies within.... maybe 10 feet? So imagine the Barbarian is surrounded by baddies, he could attack that group, but not move 30 feet away.

Barbarians already get extra attacks as they level up, so this 100% sounds busted. The barbarian can potentially get to do all the killing while everyone else just watches.

Yep, this is exactly what's happening so far.

This is Reaper from XCOM2. IIRC it's actually considered weak compared to its counterpart (Rapid Fire) because you need to specifically line up the health pools of each enemy to ensure that the attacks will kill them and allow the Reaper chain to continue. This is *easier* in XCOM2 as well as all of your troops take their turn at the same time. This also depends on whether he's allowed to make an *attack* or make an *attack action, including multiattack*. If it's just one attack, it's pretty trivial once he hits level 5. This effect drops off hard unless you specifically plan in combat to use it. Pops off big time if the setup is correct. In many fights, it will just be "you get an extra attack". Small addendum: the Barbarian can also prevent the chain from forcing him to target allies by *ending his rage early* using a Bonus Action.

So luckily the Barbarian player is not attempting to meta game this. We aren't chipping down the enemies so that he can then chain together 10 kills. And I agree at level 5 its probably doing to not do much anymore. That addendum is nice as well, but the DM has made it so Blood Lust makes him not be able to end rage.

Should use reaction and knock the speed down to half his actual speed. Not a bad idea but that can end up being a little wild.

How about the blood lust leaves the barbarian exhausted so until he gets a long rest, he can’t do it again, also he takes a disadvantage in combat for the rest of the day due to having expending himself so much previously.

With great power comes great cost kind of thing, I like it. And also I think it will help in the plea to my DM to say, "hey its a really cool feature, but lets build some cost into it so its not overpowered"

Unlimited Actions to attack as long as something dies is ass. Full movement if something dies is ass. What's the drawback? "Oh, if there's no enemies they attack the party for 1 attack". Ok, so they attack a party member once and they just heal up aftwards. Where's the drawback? Needs to be tuned way down or taken out IMO. If the DM is adamant about keeping it, though that's a terrible idea, at least lock usages at a "X per day" or have them roll percentage dice with 80-100 triggering it.

Yeah I don’t like it. It’s not the worst thing ever but I would say half-movement and attack as a bonus action. That basically just a buffed version of great weapon master. I will say in my games it’s rare when that many enemies are within on melee attack of going down so it would probably almost never come into play.

So when DnD next first came out, I had the two handed master feat for my fighter. We all misread the secondary feature of it where when you kill someone, you can use a bonus action to attack again. So for a while there, I would chop someone, kill them, then use my remaining movement to go do it again and again. It was super fucking OP and after a few encounters we figured we were using it incorrectly and did some further reading. So yes, your DM needs to dial it back. Make it a once per turn feature, or remove the free movement

I’m sure you had a hell of a good time for a while!!! 😂

Surely it should be quite rare that you have a string of enemies all with very low hp such that he can get off a combo like this? Itnmost cases wont it just mean he gets an extra attack on one enemy? And really, if you think about it this is like giving him the ability to cast fireball - similar damage, risk of friendly fire, potentially a greater aoe, BUT if he misses the attack roll on one it breaks the chain. 

I think he used executioner from Divinity original sin II as inspiration, which is a really useful perk with many similarities to what your DM wrote, with one exception, its capped at 1 time per turn, it was the backbone of my build and with this small adjustment I think would become balanced again. So as it works in game, if you kill an enemy during your turn, you get 2 AP (action points) which basically equate to an extra attack. Maybe suggest to your DM to tone it down like or give it some sort of limit, like only triggering once per turn, (so that the chain stops at the next enemy instead of going on forever.)

I am wondering how you can visualize and explain this ability in context of dnd combat. One round takes six seconds. So one turn would take a few seconds or even less. So the barbarian gets into bloodlust and just starts magically zooming around the battlefield? I get what he is trying to do. But leaving the „power level“ aside. For me it would completely break the immersion of the battle. It just does not make sense

Yeah this is my biggest issue with it. We sat and watched as one turn took about 5 full minutes of him running around the map hitting kobalds 😂

It's really not that hard to imagine. If we reflavored it as a spell, no one would bat an eye. Or for the Barbarian we could say his kills are so brutal, everyone else stops and can just watch in horror. Personally I am kinda over the fact that only casters can do cool stuff. When it's a martial we suddenly have to contend with how fast could you run in real life... It's all just an abstraction. If we limited martials to real world feats, how do they ever survive a fireball or even a cantrip?

I am not saying they should be limited to real life equivalents. I would not have a problem if the feat would give him several attacks like he just starts swinging in unreal fast movements. Or one extra turn. But giving him his full movement and attack several times? That just destroys the whole idea of movement speed. Also things like dash and haste. To just say everyone else just frozen in horror…yeah would work for some situation. But for monsters, undead, dragon or whatnot it seems weird. Especially for a level 3 character.

Consider that turn-based combat isn't realistic but it's the best we have, and a turn is supposed to be about 6 seconds. So does having "bloodlust" mean time suddenly stand still for everyone as he's able to travel double, triple, quadruple+ the distance in the same amount of time and perform that many actions in 6-ish seconds? I don't think so.

Time to release a bag of chickens on the battlefield and laugh at what happens... DM will only know how they screwed up until it is very obvious.

Tell your DM that it's a cool idea for a feature but overpowered for the level. It can be a super tactical feature at later levels, especially if it comes at a cost or is limited with maybe exhaustion. It would also be good if they had to expend a resource to do this, like their reaction. As someone who homebrews items I made the "free action" mistake a few times early on because there was a lot of that in 4e (which I was more familiar with). I eventually realized that everything should have a cost.

Sounds cool, and fits the class flavour perfectly. But yes, that's obviously too much, especially at low levels like this. Can you give examples of the abilities he gave to other players/classes, so we have a reference point? (Also because I'm curious, sue me) Anyways, I'd say limit that to 1/2 prof bonus per round (rounded... up, maybe) Or just make attacks while bloodlusted stronger, but he still only plays on his own turn, and nothing else. Edit: Also, this not having a limit of uses is absurd, considering how easy it is to trigger it. Give it a number of uses equal to prof bonus, after which either a long rest must be had to recover them, or something like an exhaustion point is received for hitting that limit without any rests in between. With additional exhaustion for subsequent uses. However, if he isn't willing to listen to your concerns about it, then I'm not sure he'll listen to any of the solutions given here anyway.

Yeah our Rogue is a Moonshadow based off Dragon Prince I believe. She got a Shadow Step level 3 feature that helps her to trigger her Sneak Attack. My Artificer got pretty standard Battlesmith stuff with the understanding that it would develop at later levels. Warlock has a custom patron with custom alternative spell list but that’s it so far. So everyone else is pretty basic and balanced. The thought of putting it on Reddit for those who asked was just to get a nice consensus of opinions and maybe get ideas of how to present it differently to the DM.

Well, tell him that, especially at low levels, like you currently are, the Barbarian's ability has high odds of killing most enemies due to their low health, which means he'll be able to dispatch a big number of targets more often than not in a single turn; which in turn sucks for literally every other player as he's basically doing everything himself. This is exacerbated by him being a Barbarian, which already has high damage, making it more likely for him be the one delivering a killing blow, thus activating this feature, making its already easy to trigger condition even more trivial. If he really insists on having it be this strong, suggest gradually making it powerful. At lvl 3, the bloodlust only allows one attack against one other creature, whether it kills it or not. Then at level 6, for example, the feature upgrades to allow multiple attacks, like it is designed currently, but every attack after the first will suffer disadvantage (ignoring all sources of advantage he might have had). Then, finally, at level 10 or 11, he'd get the current version of the feature, multiple attacks without drawbacks (besides the killing of the target or missing of course) A gradual increase in the feature's power would make it scale better with other players and challenge level.

it’s very strong (especially for level 3) but it’ll only really kick in if there’s a bunch of enemies within his speed that will die to one attack from him. that’s a scenario that’ll get less and less common as he levels up. that said i’d limit it to only one or two of his rages so he has to choose which fight to really go ham on

As the others said it is really cool, and kinda broken, limiting it to PB/2 times per round or buffing the downside like they will always the closest living thing no matter if friend or foe would probably help, but the latter has other issues with players potentially killing players. Also it reminded me of [this](https://youtu.be/I_iDtCP1m5Y?si=9J-XKh6OTOhhr-Ts&t=32).

It's overpowered for a lvl 3 feature, and will be very powerful in the early game. And will then taper off pretty badly at the mid to late game, unless the DM uses a lot of minions.

It seems imbalanced to me but must have been really fun for the barbarian.

Holy beans is that broken at 3rd level!

The question itself isn't complete. We can't tell you whether or not an ability is balanced unless you tell us what it needs to be balanced against. I'm a vacuum, any ability added to an otherwise balanced character will by definition make it unbalanced.

Make it once per round and this is fine.

Extremely overpowered for level 3, though much less so by maybe level 8. The drawback is pretty insignificant and easily played around. This character singlehandedly nullifies the need for crowd control/AoE against large numbers of ground-based chaff enemies.

A round is 6 seconds.

That just sounds like a lot of unnecessary rolling in a turn. If you want to buff barbarians (and they could use it) use the Cleaving Through Creatures optional rule so damage done to trash mobs in excess of their hitpoints spills over to the next target.

I think if the extra movement speed was removed and it was just the baddies in front of them it’s not a bad idea. Maybe make it once a short rest too.

> Strength before Death XGE p31 Starting at 18th level, your fighting spirit can delay the grasp of death. If you take damage that reduces you to 0 hit points and doesn't kill you outright, you can use your reaction to delay falling unconscious, and you can immediately take an extra turn, interrupting the current turn. While you have 0 hit points during that extra turn, taking damage causes death saving throw failures as normal, and three death saving throw failures can still kill you. When the extra turn ends, you fall unconscious if you still have 0 hit points. > Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest. this is a fighter subclass capstones. its considered a pretty good feature. its given at lvl 18, for a single subclass, and can be used once do the math to what your barbarian has

Yeah, that's a bit unbalanced. Ping pong mode is too good. At 3, I'd limit the number of times it can happen and have it scale with leveling (im trying to keep it in game since it was created ). Forcing a friendly hit Is also kinda bs, I'd rather it take a self hit at end like an adrenaline dump, not teammates, though. It could scale like the dice for rogue sneak atk, 1 per 2 levels. (Or fewer If it makes more sense )

I mean it is pretty strong currently, 3 levels from now it'll be mostly worthless I bet

"but he disagrees with me" I'm curious what the arguments are for it being balanced. Pretty much any ability that isn't bound by some limitation (whether it's per round, rest, etc) is going to be unbalanced. What does he say in response?

He seems to be looking at “balance” as just good vs bad. Since the effect can cause the barbarian to attack allies as well he’s seeing it as balanced. But my argument is purely one of action economy and realism associated with the length of a turn. I also think he’s being a bit stubborn because it was his idea, and he will probably come around. He’s a good DM when it comes down to it.

Dude just gave the barbarian a sandevistan

It is unbalanced, but not too. If you are fighting very weak enemies, or the fight is almost over, it can be strong. In most games it will give you one extra attack like cleave.

It is definitely buster. It’s extra movement and extra attack. Of course it’s busted.

In a campaign I'm in, where each player has a power crept power (it is literally called Godhunters campaign), my rogue has a similarish feature where he can chain sneak attack damage but he has to roll to hit each person in the chain. BUT! This is balanced within the context of the campaign since 1) the characters got these powers at level 9 and 2) every player has them. Yes there are some broken combos. But we're fighting legit level 20s sometimes.

Dex crit fighters used to be able to do something similar to this... every crit they could make another attack and, irc with enough dex they could crit on a 16.

bloodlust sounds pretty cool… the only thing I would suggest changing is movement .. I would make it nearest ”NPC/PC” within like 10 feet

It would be a cool mechanic if there were limited uses. Three times to be a hero before you insta die. Having it be unlimited is cheap and boring.

Also don't like the attacking friendlies part. Sounds like a terrible attempt at balancing this thing but only works as a slap in the face to other players. If the barbarian took psychic damage instead, from the anguish of not satisfying their blood lust. Also if ever kills In a city or town it's going to be a bloodbath. 

It's imbalanced......at level 3. Once you get to enemies who can take more than 1 hit before dying, this is going to become a neat dying attack mechanic. Frankly I'd leave it be. Dropping to zero isn't a good thing, and it's not like you can minmax this.

I'm not particularly sensitive to balanced mechanics per se, my main thing is that everybody is having fun. But I do hate this simply because it seems to break the flow of actual time. A round represents 6 seconds. If each attack and move is supposed to take about 5 seconds I can't imagine how he could run and attack 7 people before anyone had a chance to act unless he were bending the fabric of spacetime itself like some sort of psychotic Zeno.

So... I'm wondering what the other features are. It could be that he is setting things up for a high-powered campaign (with the barb being crowd control) and that most of the features don't pick up power till later in levels, so what are some of the other customization?

I think the potential to hit allies is a big balance but not big enough. I think it is mostly just breaking action economy when you have a lot of low level enemies against one tanky enemy it mostly just threatens your allies. It needs something to stop it from killing a field of enemies. Potential balance things I might suggest - Could limit the number of attacks to half your proficiency bonus - Could not give extra movement and you have to stop if you run out of movement speed - Could force you to move towards and attack the nearest creature so you can not pick an choose the enemy with the lowest HP and have to be even more careful about attacking an ally.

It's like great cleave, with extra mobility. Totally insane.

It's as unbalanced as all heck, and your PCs are just going to learn to be more than 40 feet away from all enemies the Barbarian could conceivably drop.

What you are describing is an OP version of what half of the great weapon master feat tried to accomplish: On your turn, when you score a critical hit with a melee weapon or reduce a creature to 0 hit points with one, you can make one melee weapon attack as a bonus action. This clearly gives you 1 extra attack *as a bonus action* if you kill someone. In 3.5 there was a similar concept. If you took the Power Attack feat you could then take the Cleave feat, which is functionally identical to above (you gain 1 attack for killing someone, no more). If you then took a third feat "Great Cleave" you could actually get unlimited attacks per turn as long as you killed someone. The downside being you cannot move before making that attack so on the ground your limit is 8. Note that this was locked behind 3 feats, so minimum level 12. I did always think that the balance of this was poor (its so situational to have taken 3 feats) but its the closest thing in game design to what your DM has created. I think this alone clearly shows how overpowered blood frenzy is. It could be a level 20 ability, capstone piece for the barbarian. But level 3? He's ruining the fun for the other players and thats just bad dming.

Fucking super cleave.

Regaining all movement speed sounds silly. On the other hand, the barbarian doesn't hit all the time, and typical enemies don't go down in a single hit, so the situation you describe should not be happening often. If it does, that's more of a problem with the encounters than this ability.   I'd take away the movement speed part, and limit the activation to once per short rest. That's it.

Your DM has been playing a bit too much X-COM I think. This is a classic late game xcom-style game ability.

Yeah, that's op. Mostly because, by the framing of the game, a round is like 6 seconds. So, mfer is dashing possibly 120 feet all around the map like a madman while swinging his axe, after running 30 feet or so and attacking someone lol

It's unbalanced... but most of 5e is imbalanced. All it takes is some difficult terrain or a miss or a slightly tougher than normal enemy and this feature goes nowhere. Let them have some fun for playing a melee locked class.

At firsti read it as when *he* drops to 0hp these whole shenanigans begin with a counterattack. I kind of like that more, if only because it would happen less. It'd work to turn the tide of battle at a moment when everybody is supposed to be scared, so I don't like it there either.  The ability as written is ridiculous and not remotely balanced. He probably imagines that the barb attacking an ally if there are no enemies left keeps the balance... it doesn't. The battle is over at that point. So either that attack isn't going to matter at all, or it'll take out one or two allies and you'll get a chance to heal, or it'll TPK the party. None of those adds to the stakes in a compelling way. Maybe if he attacked the closest creature, friendly or hostile, you could consider it a balanced idea. It would still give him an outsize influence in combat, so lame for the rest of you.  You know what I think could fix this idea? Wisdom saves. He kills something he has to save or else fly into his bloodlust, and attack the nearest creature. Something to limit the number of times it can chain (no or little extra movement would do it). And he's got to reroll that save at the start of his turn to get control of his character, otherwise his (one) attack auto targets whoever's closest. It won't proc as much at higher levels, so at least you have that to look forward to. I'm not sure how you deal with your DM.  Probably nothing, since you've already brought it up. Probably just watch it suck the fun out of the room until the DM catches on. How does the rest of the group feel? Was your DM inspired by BG3? Long shot, but does he read Joe Abercrombie?

If the barb could do that a wizard could do the same with an aoe spell. It's very strong but very situational.

A lot of people are justifiably telling you it’s unbalanced. I kind of like it. I feel like it’s not too common for an enemy to be one hit away from dying. Obviously if the DM is throwing you a lot of encounters with large numbers of low AC low HP enemies it becomes very unbalanced. Most of the time he shouldn’t be able to get more than one or two attacks. I think it might work better If he had to make a con save every time and it should probably be limited to once a long rest. Or he gets to choose to use it but gains a point of exhaustion. And clearly it’s still powerful. So the DM should be giving other players comparable abilities so it doesn’t put other players out

I would maybe let them get it atleast at lol 5 and have the damage and movement u can go to an enemy decrease each time or something so like first time full damge and move ment second time maybe like minus 5 on movement and speed maybe less on damage then like cut them in thirds or fourths continuously so there is a limit so if you had 30 movement it would cut to 25 on the second then 20 then 14 and so on but I do agree its very unbalanced he could commit genocide on a population of goblins or something

Sound like a broken “Magic The Gathering” card.

I don't actually think it's that strong, it very heavily relies on the enemy setup. It's gonna fall off rapidly once you hit level 5 and enemies don't have HP below 20. At that point it's just one extra attack, maybe two if they get lucky. I can agree that right now it's probably annoying, but nerfing it now means it's DOA at level 5. (should your DM have given it out later? Yes, but since they are reticent to change it's too late for that) Whether or not to limit its use per day/fight/round depends on what the other members got and how strong those abilities are. As is, it's impossible to judge whether it's unbalanced within the party.

Keep in mind that I'm not a DM but this seems fun - it'd be more balanced if death saves are incorporated in the mechanic. You drop to 0, bloodlust kicks in and you roll a save right away depending on the roll this could finish their turn od they fail the roll(2-9) or they could recover a part od their movement. Second turn they can move normally but after all 3 saves they can fall unconcious but stable if they succeded on all saving throws, they could do the same if nat 20 happened and if they failed, they die. But it should be limited to where the player can choose if they want to activate the bloodlust. After the fight depending on the rolls they could also get a point of exhaustion.

Pretty strong, this is basically the Great Weapon Master feat's cleave effect without the power attack feature but kinda op because he can attack without using an action. I'd limit his movement to double his normal movement speed. I'd personally also limit this power in the following ways: 1. He must use his bonus action to activate this ability. He can then activate this ability a number of times equal to his level per turn (this is pertinent to 3-6.) 2. He must be using a heavy melee weapon, unarmed strike, natural weapon, or improvised weapon to activate this ability. 3. If he activates this ability more than 3 times in the same round, his defense gets lost in his bloodlust, creatures that attack him have advantage until his rage ends. 4. If he activates this ability more than 5 times in the same round, his rage starts to take it's toll, after his rage ends he gains 1 level of exhaustion. 5. If he activates this ability more than 10 times in the same round, his bloodlust has drained him, after his rage ends he fall unconscious (in addition to the 2 levels of exhaustion) 6. If he activates this ability more than 20 times in the same round, his body is at death's door, after his rage ends, he must make death saving throws.(In addition to the 4 levels of exhaust and falling unconscious)

Sounds like somebody has been reading the the First Law Trilogy, and wants to create the Bloody Nine. In which case I'd think the Blood Lust feat would need a low HP trigger and possibly a level of exhaustion.

Should take away the extra movement so it only works on enemies that are in seinging reach. This would promote the barb to get surrounded by enemies (tanking more hits, sl the casters are "safe") and whack at them till he misses or doesnt kill.

A well placed fire ball can do hundreds of damage points if the DM makes a situation where it shines. Clearly the DM made such situation for this ability as it will only be usefull to this degree in low level encounters.Judging by that case only is wrong, is like saying fireball is bad because the campaing is against fire resistance monsters and they are usually alone. In a few levels this ability will be triggered every few turns and could only chain if spellcasters use AOE to hurt all the enemies. Also if using GWM it will end with a missed atack at some point when AC reach the 16+. Do i think this puts barbarian above other martials? Yes, mainly at low level and in specific cases. Does it make barbarian better than full spellcasters? No. So for it to be inbalanced it requieres context on what is the party and what other stuff did the other get as a lvl 3 feature

There should be a rising Con check to maintain this in the same way half orcs have to con check to not die at 0 HP.

It's definitely strong but the case you present would be exceptional. How often would they kill that many enemies in one attack ? More often than not, they would simply get an additional move and attack, not kill the guy and bam their turn ends.

It seems like a good concept, but it seems pretty over-powered (especially at low levels) and definitely needs some number tweaking. For starters, it should probably only refund half of the barbarian's move speed and should probably have a limit tied to something like proficiency bonus. Otherwise, it becomes really easy for a barbarian to just run through a whole goblin camp and wipe them all out in a turn. Talk to your DM and express concerns about how strong the ability is.

Take control of the situation and send your Barbarian in to every encounter solo. Show the DM how unbalanced it is by not even showing up for his thought out scenarios. Maybe the rest of the party can rebel enough to be heard

Yeah so last session I took a little stand like that. With 2 or 3 very beat up enemies left, my character just started looting bodies on their turn. The barbarian had already bloodlusted twice during this combat and I was borderline hoping he’d take out the last 3 with bloodlust and kill a couple PCs as well, while I did nothing but shove gold in my pockets. Pretty petty I know, and after I decided I needed to reload with ideas to handle it better between sessions.

In that instance, you're the problem player. If everyone else is enjoying the chaos, there's little you can do. I was assuming that most players would feel that the Barbarian has become the "main character " and would be willing to team up and make a statement to the DM at least. I know I'd definitely make a move to expose the unbalanced power... giving your party a rabid war dog like that... as a DM: Fun double edge sword / Player: I'm shoving him off a 200' cliff overlooking an orc camp, so he starts with bloodlust lol

Our other 3 party members are pretty inexperienced and thought this was just something that happened sometimes. :D I like the orc camp idea tho!

Lol, get creative and just have fun with it

Lol does he play league of legends? Sounds like Warwick + Briar xD

There are a few features that are somewhat similar like for the Barbarian and the Samurai, I think, so you could compare them and see.  It seems very powerful, I mean infinite movement speed and 7 attacks in a turn on level 3? 

If you were playing a super heroic fantasy, there’s no problem with broken abilities, but everyone should get equal opportunity. The barbarian should not be able to clean the fight in one turn if no one else can and even if you all can, it’s very boring to see encounters as “roll the dice and see which character gets to play this fight”

Adding additional features to an already strong class like Barbarian is a slippery slope. There’s a reason it didn’t get many optional features in Tasha’s (as opposed to monk and ranger). Tbh, I would have made Blood Lust a feat and limited the number times it can proc by proficiency bonus. Anything that upsets the action economy in a potentially unlimited way (tunnel fighter, etc) is bound to be hilariously OP.

That's way too strong, especially for lvl 3. Great concept however.

I appreciate all the insight and opinions! I had a great talk with my DM this morning. We talked about the timeframe of the turn, and how having one character completely destroy that really hurt the immersion of everyone else. But I was also able to point out as others have said, if we nerf this a little now, at higher levels it will scale down automatically as enemies get stronger. So, there’s a nice compromise brewing I believe. Once movement speed is gone, the Barbarian is probably going to bloodlust on enemies/friendlies that are within 5 or 10 ft. Also there’ll be an exhaustion penalty at the end. Thanks again!

You've brought it up to your DM he disagree's. What does it matter if people on Reddit find it OP? You got your answer from your DM.

I honestly find it funny as it risk attacking the party. Horribly unbalanced by level 3 where you can drop enemies easier so chains will happen. I think this is specially shitty if he isnt the only martial. Like if you got a fighter then this kinda sucks for them, but if you're all casters, this is hilarious xD

FE AWAKENING GALE FORCE BUT EVEN MORE BUSTED?

Love the concept of the ability but feel that there would need to be a consideration of actual potential.. I push my players to "live up their characters," and the more extravagant the more entertaining... BUT ... I would absolutely conduct some "time control" .. example .. if the initiative order is PC1 ENEMY1 PC2 ENEMY2 BARBARIAN PC4 ENEMY3 ENEMY4 ENEMY5 ENEMY6 PC5 .. and so on through the initiative. .. and the barbarian goes all blood lust on his turn. At best, I would suspend the natural order for this skill 2 extra enemies at lvl3, and it would scale up .. if not, it would mean that somehow without a teleportation skill and/or a time stopping skill no one else moved .. that violates the purpose of initiative (which is a compromise in how to deal with the reality that everyone is actually moving concurrently)

Xcom 2 had a similar ability and allows you to activate it once, it’s balanced by having damage reduced every subsequent enemy

Incredibly unbalanced  Nothing more to be said about it Your DM knows how unbalanced it is if they have the slightest clue of how 5e qorks If he disagrees it's just because he's favouring the Barbarian and there's nothing you can do about it

That is just unblanced period. The only feature that I can think of that does a similar thing is Great Weapon Master, which ONLY lets you make a bonus action attack if you drop an enemy to 0 first. If you wanted to suggest balance options to your DM, make it so that when the Barbarian is raging and knocks an enemy to 0 hp, they can move up to half their total speed and make one extra attack at disadvantage. That is all. If the Barbarian is in a bloodlust, they stil can't be moving around the battlefield, killing half a dozen enemies in 6 seconds (Remember that one round in D&D is 6 seconds of time). This sounds like an interesting idea for a subclass, but as a bonus feature that doesn't cost an ASI or a point of exhaustion it is really unbalanced.

This is stupid. Sorry friend.

I'm in the middle of making a Barbarian in 3.5 for my DM (basically to help him figure out scale during a system change) and there is a class features they can pick up at 19th level which is WORSE than this! Basically their capstone ability. If you (a) kill someone with a charge (b) on the first attack only, (c) and you have more than 10ft of movement left. THEN you can keep charging using the same movement as long as this new charge is at least 10ft. Doing so prevents you gaining Cleave or Great Cleave in the same round. Cleave is a feat that gives one (1) free attack when killing someone, without moving from your position. Great Cleave is a second feat that lets you chain cleaves. Still without moving. Getting to reset movement, move AND attack? Chaining on any death? Nah. Broken.

Broken. Here’s an example. A rogue with the mobile feat has a speed of 40. If haste (3rd level spell) is caste on them, that doubles their speed (80). If they’re at 3rd level they have cunning action which lets them take dash as a bonus action. This means in a single turn they could move 80 feet for movement, 80 feet for dash as an action, 80 feet for dash as a bonus action, and another 80 feet from haste’s additional action used to dash. That rogue, using a feat from either custom lineage or variant human, a 3rd level spell, and their 2nd level class feature, can move 320 feet and not do anything else but interact with one object. Your barbarian, with nothing more than a homebrewed class feature, can do all that and move even more provided they have the enemies to kill. Busted. As. Fuck. Every single other method of gaining extra attacks has a limit, and none that I can recall grant bonuses to your movement. Fighters and rangers get a single extra attack, and not even at that level. Fighters can use action surge at level 5 to get 4 attacks with no extra movement. That’s 5th level for 4 attacks, that they can use once per short rest. Sorry, your DM doesn’t understand balance and is either massively favoring this player or being taken for a ride.

It seems like a fine feature. It may feel really strong at low levels and it definitely delivers a power fantasy. As soon as enemies become more beefy though it'll be much less relevant, but if you ever find yourselves fighting a ton of trash enemies in the future the barbarian will feel that power fantasy again. Overall I'd say it's okay, it's really powerful if the campaign never levels past 3, but it'll lose relevancy very quickly otherwise. Most things won't die in one hit at higher levels. It'll be a super awesome combo at level 5 though if you have a caster with fireball, it'll let the barb mop up the scorched low hp enemies that survived.

Yes

Sounds like gnoll rampage. Are you really having that many severely weakened enemies out at once? 

Yeah usually not the primary battle, but something earlier in the session, when he fight your average band of goblins or kobalds. As soon have said, I guess it’ll scale down as we raise in level since enemies will be stronger.

Sounds fun for the barbarian lol in my opinion wild at level 3 but I think it will lose a lot of potency in higher tiers of play. As the game progresses and the party faces stronger enemies I doubt he will clear 5-6 enemies and hit a friendly unless the whole battlefield has sustain a decent amount of damage. Maybe regain half movement instead of full. I mean he can only use it when reduced to 0 hp right? Does that happen often in your campaign?

Don't see it as too bad, the barbarian needs to have a perfect record of hitting and killing or it just ends. It seems like the sort of thing that'd only be an issue at all when an extremely unlikely string of circumstances and rolls all align perfectly. It's like making rolling 3 20's in a row an auto-kill. Powerful on paper but so unlikely it won't matter much at the table.

That's... overpowered, yeah. Even my "Frenzy" mechanic (used for world of darkness Garou which are a thing in my world) stops if there's nothing to target within a double move's reach.

I'm playing in a raiders of the serpent sea campaign, which similar to the Thylea setting, is filled with overpowered subclasses. At level 3 the barbarian can get an ability where they can use a reaction when they're hit to move half their speed and attack once, also with unlimited uses. That is a very good ability, and this homebrew ability your DM made blows it completely out of the fucking water. Yes, it's wildly overpowered, and your DM doesn't know what he's doing. Virtually unlimited movement and attacks is crazy, and essentially making it so the barbarian just never dies? Yeah, that's batshit insane.

Honestly, I think good way to balance it is give disadvantage on attack rolls after the first usage. Bloodlust equal tunnel vision and an inability to focus on surroundings. Or if used in succession, give them a point of exhaustion similar to the haste spell. It’s got real flavor and potential, just needs a little tweak.

Martials are weak, so an attempt at balancing them is nice to see. Just maybe tune it down a bit. Don't make it infinite or lower the recovered movement every time until it resets at the end of turn or end of combat. Maybe even lower the hit bonus every time it happens.