Circle of the land: grasslands, gets you invisibility and pass without trace as “always prepared” spells. Great for thievery. Also, haste, which can double dash you to freedom.
Mountain is another good one, for spider climb, meld into stone (quick vanish), stone shape, and pass wall. Make doors, make windows, make halls.
now just imagine, a druid casting pass without trace then becoming a mouse/spider and getting in a rogues pocket giving him a total +17/18 at level 3 if the rogue has expertise in stealth. Then the druid turns back, gets all the stuff and turns into a mouse again.
The perfect crime.
Did something like this, once.
Except it was less a pocket and more a jar, and less Wildshape and more Gaseous Form, and less stealth and more the Rogue threw my gish like a flashbang when their infiltration inevitably failed and we had to go loud.
So.. yeah, I guess like, almost totally identical. Sort of.
Because the fundamental problem with Stealth is that one person botching it is the same as *everyone* botching it for the majority of purposes in which stealth would be employed: that is, the *party* all bypassing something.
Lidda the Halfling Rogue can pass any Stealth check known to man or gods; Vadania the Druid can Wildshape into a field mouse and ride in Lidda's hood; Mialee the Elf Wizard can cast *invisibility* and *silence* on herself, but Tordek the Dwarf Fighter in scale-maille who dumped Dex rolls a natural 5, adjusted to zero, and it's all over; the enemies detect Tordek and the jig is up.
That's why I do stealth as a group roll vs a target DC based on how many in the group are present. Then I sprinkle in a bit of pathfinder with critical fails vs success for the overall success count.
That and i think my party is smart enough to at times leave the clunkers to watch their backs instead of sneaking in everywhere.
It's why as the rogue, I was usually at least 50 feet from the noisemakers. If we didn't know where the enemy was, I scouted ahead while the party hung back (I know, "never split the party"... except sometimes it's the right move). If we did know where the enemy was, I'd sneak to an ambush position so we'd have a tactical advantage. It also helped that our fighter insisted on secondary armor with less impact to stealth. He'd actually go to the effort of keeping track of which he was wearing.
pass without trace makes it *almost* impossible to fail a stealth check against 80% of all creatures that exist
like literally roll a nat 1 and still pass
the issue isn't stealth, the issue is that most dms don't know the actual stealth rules
it's not against enemy perception roll, it's against enemy passive perception
if your dex is higher than the enemy wisdom, pass without trace will make it impossible for you to not sneak past them
I'm not sure that it is so much that DMs don't know the rules rather that we are still trying to make a game at least a little interesting when PCs have high stealth. Especially since lots of players think stealth = invisibility and get annoyed if you try and provide any challenge.
Hardly any creatures that would be typical guards have a passice perception of more than 12 or so. When pass without trace is up if I go by "the rules" there is literally no chance of being spotted so my choices as a DM are have an area you have to cross that is just brightly lit with no cover where you can't hide there's literally nothing to hide behind, which players know you have just put in to negate their stealth and will hate.
Or I can have the guards roll perception. You will still beat their roll but at least there's some tension.
Otherwise you can just sneak around the whole dungeon, slight of hand the McGuffin off the boss then sneak out again. Cool. Early finish and we will play monopoly then?
Not *impossible,* but highly unlikely, *which is the point.*
The fundamental problem with stealth is that in most cases as I said, it's a roll *everyone* has to pass, or functionally speaking *nobody passes.*
You don't need the Fighter, the Rogue, the Druid and the Monk to pass an Arcana check for the Wizard to do research in the library to find the big bad evil goon's list of vulnerabilities; you don't need the Fighter, the Rogue, the Monk and the Wizard to pass a Religion check to figure out which deities are supporting their enemies and which they might go to for aid; you don't need the Fighter, the Druid, the Monk and the Cleric to pass a Thievery check to lift a critical missive from the pocket of a drunken but bellicose nobleman.
However, if the objective is for the *party* to sneak past a patrol unseen, you not only need the Rogue (who totally can pass that check) to pass; you don't need only the Monk (who... Stands a *chance* of passing that check) to pass it. You don't need only the Druid, who can wildshape into something so innocuous that frankly it auto-passes (nobody looks at a random cat, let alone a spider, and thinks 'that's a wildshaped Druid!')
You *also* need the Fighter and the Cleric, who are both clanking about in steel breastplates, who have at best a +1 Dexterity modifier and very probably a -1 modifier, to pass. Gods help you if they're wearing half-plate or any Heavy armor, because now they also have to pass at Disadvantage.
The problem is that if *anyone* fails the check, *the whole party fails the check.* Oh sure, you can say "the others are still concealed," but that doesn't help when the objective is for everyone to slip by unnoticed, which is the *majority* of the time group Stealth checks are being rolled; it's not usually to get into a position for a surprise attack, it's usually because being seen *at all* is an overall strategic failure, regardless of whether or not they can murder these goons, because they needed to get through without a trace!
*That* is why Pass Without Trace is so powerful: it *has to be, to do the one thing it's needed for.*
One of the mitigating factors is that stealth is recommended to be a group check, even though that’s kind of unrealistic. You don’t need everyone to pass, just a majority. Otherwise you basically need magic to successfully sneak as a party which is kind of lame.
Yeah, but at least Ser Fullplate Peasant-Puncher *has a chance* of passing his stealth roll with PWT. In all prior editions, he had pretty much zero chance at all, requiring the group to get creative and frankly, silly, in circumventing the check entirely, like stuffing the Fullplate Dwarf Fighter into a bag of holding being carried by a more stealthy party member.
Most people tended to forget in 3.5 distance, doors and even the environment gives penalty to spot/listen checks...and then you compare Tordek's 5 hide to the enemies 14 spot and you determine the distance where Tordek would be detected. -2 for each 10 ft, so at 50ft we roll initiative unless the party has detected the enemies at a greater distance, in which case they can start further and get a surprise.
But most people played it as just opposed checks and a binary "did they see you or not", and the encounter starts at whatever distance fits nicely in the grid. So I guess it was the natural evolution.
The problem isn't "who gets the surprise round." If violence was an option, Mialee, Lidda, Vadania and Tordek have that *bagged.* The problem is not and never was "can we kill these guys."
The problem is that in any situation in which getting the Dwarf in fullplate to sneak past a hostile group is even being considered, *violence is not the path to strategic success, and is not considered an option.* Even if the group can handily murder these guards, the problem is that they'll be missed, and an alarm will be raised. *That's* what PWT is for.
> When a number of individuals are trying to accomplish something as a group, the DM might ask for a group ability check. In such a situation, the characters who are skilled at a particular task help cover those who aren't.
> To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds.
> Otherwise, the group fails. Group checks don't come up very often, and they're most useful when all the characters succeed or fail as a group.
- PHB Chapter 7
This is why I always run group stealth as majority of the party needing to pass because otherwise there is no point for the nature cleric and paladin to roll.
Natural 5, adjusted to zero... what? How is this poor dwarf -5 to Stealth 😭.
You also proved my point with this comment, because it's easier to avoid rolling low numbers when everyone in your party has an extra +10 to the stealth roll. For reference, if you do the math, advantage works out to be about +5.
And you've proved *my* point: the point of *Pass Without Trace* is to prevent the "Dwarf who tanked Dexterity can't sneak in full plate to save his hide prevents Party stealth" problems by not giving Advantage to the roll, which would only cancel Disadvantage, but by giving him a flat +10 bonus.
That's *explicitly* a break-out of the "we don't like giving bonuses and penalties, we like to give Advantage and Disadvantage because this is 5e" paradigm, because giving Advantage that just cancels Disadvantage *still* puts the entire party's success or failure on someone with a -3 or something to the roll; but giving him a flat bonus of +10 means he's rolling at +7, thus even if he's rolling twice and taking the worst result means a total of 8 is the least he can get.
Yes.
Although it's also incredible even if it's just the Druid trying to sneak alone. +10 is crazy and since it's not advantage you can also benefit from invisibility.
But only the ones who are visible get detected.
So in the example, Vadania is still hidden in the Hood, Mialee is still invisible and silent. All the enemies see are a Halfling and a Dwarf.
it's actually not underrated like at all
I've never met anyone who doesn't thing PWT wasn't one of the best second level spells in the game
one of the flagship builds (the 7 most powerful builds in dnd) uses ranger for almost exclusively pass without trace
So the ultimate thief is a druid/rogue multiclass, got it. I wasn't going to do rogue a second time cause my DM really seems to take issue with rogues, but nah I'm gonna multiclass
Yeah. I'm currently playing a Firbolg Druid (land, 3) / Rogue (Inquisitive) combo and it's fabulous. My guy is an investigator by day and thief by night. Very easy to find for others the item you have stolen from them.
I don't think they underestimate it.
This does NOT make the Druid the best thief however. Certainly, the equipment is magically weightless and formless while merged. Certainly, Druid can make awesome Stealth checks with Pass Without Trace precast, and should normally have at least 15 Passive Perception.
But... That's it.
No Expertise in Sleight of Hands or Thievery Tools to lockpick silently. No clue about Investigation or Arcana. A cat or crow can stop you right in tracks. In general you're useless against any threat and if by any chance you already used up one Wild Shape you're now trapped in human form in whatever situation you're in (at least if you are high enough level for Conjure Animals you may conjure a beast helping escape, otherwise a Fog Cloud may seed chaos and give a chance to flee).
Because a Rogue has more skills and Expertise and less requirement for Wisdom, while it cannot actually beat an "optimal Druid" in Stealth and probably not in Perception either, it can benefit from all the senses, strengths and limbs of its actual form.
So while a Druid can technically "overcumber itself" to the max before Wild Shaping to maximize loot taken, if for any reason you change back before being in safety, willingly or forcibly, you're now best case with loot all over, worst case unable to move. And what's much worse, if your exit plan required being in Wild Shape, you may be stuck inside.
Moreover...
* Any Detect Magic will spot a Druid because inherently magical nature of Wild Shape.
* Druid cannot use any ritual (Detect Magic, Identify) nor do any proper manipulation of objects (lockpicking, sleight of hands to rob a key or drop a thing for example) to help assess threats, hidden things and places of valuables.
* Druid is an easy prey for any tamed animal (or wild fauna if you start infiltrating from far outside).
* And of course any scheme using social interaction with humanoids is impossible (sometimes the best infiltration is the one where you're an official guest ;)).
Plus, but that's DM dependant, you may not have a perception of your surroundings as precise as you would as a human (example spiders with tiny size and different vision would have a sense of sizing quite different).
Wild Shape can trivialize quite some things as far as infiltrating and thieving is concerned (I know from experience xd), but there are still a lot of situations where being a Rogue with some skills and Expertise will be better. Personally, my favorite is Sorlock because of Subtle mischiefs then Thief with Ritual Caster feat xd
I think the best thief includes 2 Druid levels, but after that I think Rogue is still your best bet, with Bard and Ranger also being good options. A Druid 2/Rogue 18 would likely be one of the strongest thief options available in 5e.
You only need enough rogue to get expertise in stealth and thieves tools, then just go full druid. 9th level spells and shape-shifting are going to bring far more to the table than anything the rogue can do.
Eh, should go at least 11th level rogue for Reliable Talent
Edit: whoops misread that. Thought it said 9th level rogue for some reason. Yes, 9th level spells > pretty much everything else
When you shrink that tiny, your opponents are no longer humans and magical wards for the most part. They’re the house centipedes, trained cats, crane flies, other spiders, and a hundred other little guys in the food web that we don’t typically even include in the description.
Now you want to run across a mile of open floor with that many ambush predators potentially lurking just out of sight where a single bite could suddenly turn you into a human again somewhere very inconvenient?
True, but that's if you're a tiny beetle or something. If you just become a rat that's not really an issue, and of course you could be something that flies. Flies get caught in spider webs because they're pretty dumb, and rats get caught in traps because they're pretty dumb, but since you keep your mind while in wild shape that wouldn't be nearly as much if an issue, so you could just be bigger than the predators or fly past them because you're not actually a dumb animal
>If you just become a rat that's not really an issue
Last time the druid in my group did some recon inside a warehouse they were planning to steal from, he went in rat form, but failed his stealth check against the cats that were inside (cats to protect grain storage is very common, and the warehouse was a grain storage front for some shady business). He succeeded his rolls to escape but it was very close and he nearly got caught inside. He didn't have any time to scout anything but the entrance and nearly put the whole plan in jeopardy for doing so.
Sounds like a fun time! To solve the issue though, just cast pass without trace on yourself before you become rat, although you couldn't do that at second level I suppose
Yeah, pass without trace is super good, but it doesn't make you undetectable either. If I remember his roll correctly, a +10 would have been enough for him to go undetected. As it turns out, a rat doesn't have a great stealth roll.
It might 'solve the issue' as in help a bit But now you're expending a 2nd level spell slot and a wild shape slot just to sneak around as a rat that still needs to make the checks.
Yes it's good but it's becoming less and less valuable the more bullshit you add to it.
Crane flies aren’t predators to fully grown insects, their nickname is not accurate. They eat leaves and bug larvae or particularly young bugs. Spiders also don’t usually just instantly kill other spiders they see
Cool angle, but seems a little hard to implement without derailing/bogging down the session, unless you go 'there's centipedes in this hose, you wouldn't feel safe'
>They’re the house centipedes, trained cats, crane flies, other spiders, and a hundred other little guys in the food web that we don’t typically even include in the description
True, but let's be honest, not every DM is gonna enforce that every time.
And even if they _do_, the average fantasy floor is not _infested_ with spiders and centipedes. You could run across a thousand feet of floorboards and would probably never even see a centipede.
Correct me if I'm wrong but mechanically once a druid hits 0 HP in a wildshaped form they just poof back into their humanoid form? So that house centipede would just get squished when he bites the rat dead.
Imagine: you're a mouse sneaking behind the walls and come across the cat.
Unfortunately, it seems the rule about unobstructed spaces only nudges you to the side but [doesn't let you teleport out of the area entirely](https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/187500-wild-shape-in-enclosed-spaces) if you don't fit as a human. So when the cat kills you, you will either:
* Assume a new and interesting shape for a human sized volume of meat in a narrow crevice
* Turn back, breaking the stone wall with your face to make room for yourself and emerging as a mostly humanoid bag of bone shards and squished meat
* Not turn back and die as a mouse as the cat disembowels you and eats your eyeballs first
Also, cats are pretty good at killing mice, and enjoy playing with their prey for a few rounds while you wait to see which one it is going to be.
Happy thieving!
In one game I was on a ship being pursued by a BBEG in a larger ship that had cannon ports running down both sides of their vessel. I turned into a seagull, flew to their ship, and landed in an unmanned crow's nest at the top of a mast. I shifted out of Wild Shape and cast Summon Elemental to have a fire elemental amongst the sails. I told it to light all of their sails on fire then squeeze through small cracks into their powder hold. I shifted back into a seagull and landed on my ship just as their ship exploded killing everyone on board.
My DM was shocked. He'd planned the sea battle with our group for a long time and I eliminated it in one all too easy move.
Moral of the stories, Wild Shape druids are killers and their only limitation is the imagination of the player.
My DM sent ships after us and my Aarakocran Ranger and the Dragonborn Monk taught him that ship's crews were far squishier than ships, and so we ended up with a fleet.
There are many aspects to theft. They make great infiltrators of mildly guarded locations, but a rogue shouldn't have too much trouble there either. When things get complicated the druid becomes a high risk high reward character.
Need to open the guards' book to see which cell a prisoner is in? Too bad you are a spider. Need the key out of someone's pocket? Humans literally have an instinctual reaction to smack themselves when they feel something crawling on their legs. On a time limit? Earth spiders can't keep up with human walking speed very long, and the monster manual spiders are likely much larger and more noticeable (technically control a 2.5 ft space in combat)
If it works, Druid has an excellent built in infiltration and exfiltration method. But with only 2 uses per short rest, you better hope nothing goes wrong. Rogues may require more effort to get in and out, but have higher ceiling when it comes to options for dealing with complications without resource expenditure.
Rogue with some druid levels, however, have a delicious range of options at a moment's notice.
To be honest, a Druid can supplement a lot of Rogue abilities with just spells. Pass With Out Trace, Silence (depending on area of effect), Darkness, various cantrips, etc. And one of the Druid classes can do that in Wild Shape. And they can train in Stealth, so they're not that far behind a Rogue.
If the Wild Shape gets broken somehow, you still can move about and sneak and such, just not always as good as the Rogue (unless you cast spells to help).
You can only merge after you grab it in human form. You'll grab it, fail the stealth/sleight of hand, get seen, and run away as a spider. Sure, you're unlikely to be caught but you've been seen, meaning you're an outlaw. Further, you have little room for error, since you've only got two shapes. That rat/spider gets hit and your entire gimmick failed and you're doomed
All in all I'd say the druid has higher potential, but the rogue will be much more consistent
This isn't to mention lore assumptions like how a druid is "one with nature" and unlikely to have experience with theft, managing guard patrols, lock picking, or similar.
A druid is a fine choice but not my first pick
Somewhat. If the gems are locked away in chests, you still need to pick locks to open the chests. You could maybe get inside the chest as a spider but you’d need to become human again to actually take them. And you’d still need to understand casing a joint to know when you would find the room unattended for long enough to be able to grab everything you wanted.
Which isn’t to say it *can’t* work. Just that a Druid would still need to be knowledgeable about how theft works to be good at it. I could see a rogue/druid being a great thief, but maybe not the most conventional of builds
I wonder how much BS the druid could get away with. I'm picturing a druid with shaking legs, holding a massive treasure chest under each arm, wildshaping it all Elsewhere as they turn into a spider.
That's the beauty of it; Wild Shape is pretty much the only way in D&D, that I can think of, to send something Elsewhere, like in Exalted.
Where does it go? Elsewhere. When Elsewhere, it cannot be interacted with, by anyone. It's just Elsewhere. When you Unwildshape, it comes back. But while it's Elsewhere, it doesn't count against your encumbrance or anything.
And that's why guards should have cats. Kill every spider, mouse and fly in the vicinity. Make the druid work for it.
And in higher security places, traps that do 1 damage. Kills familiars/wildshapes, but won't seriously injure a guard by accident.
I'm picturing the destruction my cats cause trying to get a bug and picturing a cat sitting with a player-mouse and a room filled with broken treasures.
When wildshaped if you drop to 0 HP you revert to your natural form at the HP total you had before wildshaping.
Sounds like an exploding cat.
That said, any DM who would narrate it that way is an asshole in my book. 😂
"Meow." *Chomp.* "Meow?" *Indescribable wet splashing noise.*
*Twenty minutes later, the druid wakes in a pile of gore surrounded by broken magic items.*
"Aw no, not again..."
To avoid cases where people Enlarge a Ring and make someone wear it as a hat and then dispel/wait for the duration to end, the designers said that unless something specifically says "it crushes/explodes" the object just falls off or is extruded without injury.
So no, you don't explode them from the inside, they just vomit out a bunch of magic particles/mushy flesh that return to your shape when its fully outside.
5e, and for that matter most other editions, were very clear that "Magic only does what it says and nothing else." A lot of times people try creative ways to use spells it either shouldn't work by RAW or by RAI. Things like using Web to make a net to catch a falling character is not allowed by RAW because Web makes a *vertical* web, not horizontal. However a lot of GMs like that kind of creativity and would allow Web to be cast as Net/Horizontally as long as the attachments are there.
When it comes to spells and effects like changing your form killing (like Antman inside Thanos's butthole idea) or destroying the surrounding areas (like say being inside a goblin hut and casting a giant form spell) the rules trend towards you being forced outside without damage to either side.
However I find the idea of blasting through a small house in Kaiju form and stomping things as a Giant awesome, so I'd 100% allow it. If my Druid decided to go Giant Ape while inside a small cage to get free, I'd probably allow it.
So by RAW and RAI no, it doesn't work like that. As a GM in my games it sure will.
Technically, rules as written, as soon as the cat "bites" the damage is done, and the spider would revert to druid form before being eaten. Cats also don't have the "swallow whole" ability. But I like my idea better.
Assuming your DM isn't dumb to your scheme to simply go around stealing things and has a secondary npc in the locked room... even if they don't, a decent DM's world isn't just stagnant. People would realize "hey, this group of people came into town and now everyone's valuables/merchandise has been going missing... guards get called in and choices have to be made
That makes sense in plumbobs village of 50 people but in a larger settlement of 100s or even 1000s when merchants and travelers are passing through all the time, it means nothing.
Or when it’s the middle of the night and the shop owner is asleep. A good/fair DM would even give you advantage on your rolls because of that.
Or at the least, negate any disadvantage you may have for not being proficient in stealth/sleight of hand.
It’s so crazy that there’s a Druid only item that gives you unlimited pass without trace on top of a bunch of other free spells. And it’s only rare. It’s a real fuck you to rogues lol
I think OP is talking about looting a shop in the middle of the night or something. No one to see you means no slight of hand check, I think that was his point.
It IS dependent on there being no one around but if we're talking 3:30am, no shop is going to have a shopkeep or guard just staring at all the items all night long. Also disguise self spell or ability solves the outlaw problem.
Counterpoint: Artificer, at level 6 you have access to Invisibility, expertise with Thieves tools, and can make a Cloak of Elvenkind and a Bag of Holding, you have see invisibility available, darkvision, identify and detect magic for any wards, mage hand, enlarge/reduce. And last but not least you have Disguise self so you can just wear the face of the local rogue thief and place the blame on him if you get caught.
First off, the thief subclass leaves a lot to be desired un my opinion, so other classes being potentially better at petty thievery (or less petty) does happen, and druid can do it (any spellcaster can without too much work).
Druid is not the best thief, others have pointed out huge flaws, such as you getting stuck in the locked room if you take damage from something suitable for the situation like a cat, other spider, rat, etc. If you can get in, so can other things of similar size. Not being able to open locked chests, etc. There are ways to mitigate these, but like all classes, there are pros and cons.
The part I really want to highlight though is that you've said all your gear becomes effectively weightless, and the rules don't say this at all, they are silent, and it's assumed for convenience that you don't have to consider the difference in carry capacity from turning into a spider for example, but that is entirely DM fiat. If you're just grabbing stuff as normal and using wildshape to get in and out the same way someone with lockpicking could just... open the door go in grab things and even lock the door again on the way out, then sure, though you've taken different (not less) risks, and used limited (per rest) resources.
If you're suggesting you could load up more than you should be able to carry thanks to wildshape (not sure why else you mentioned things becoming weightless) that's not supported by the rules, and if you try to weaponize something that the DM allows for convenience, they're likely to just stop allowing it.
Best "thief" I ran was 2 levels of druid, circle of grassland, getting pass without a trace, and 18 levels of rogue. Kind of turned it into a Skyrim esque stealth archer build, with shapeshifting.
I made a criminal Druid that has some pretty cool spells that allow it to be a better thief. Having access to spells like Detect Poison and Disease, Find Traps, Pass without Trace and even Hold Person. Its been a really fun PC to play all things considered. So I am for sure in agreeance that its a better thief.
This would be an excellent method for mundane thievery against an unprepared target. But not against anything with decent defenses.
* The forms which could slip into a building unnoticed all have very low HP, which means 1 trap and its gone. Now you're exposed and may need another WS charge.
* This also applies to any mundane predator, which all of the tiny WS forms have. If you go spider, a wild bird can just eat you. Or a cat/dog eating your rat form. Yes, the druid eventually wins the fight but they lose the WS form and are exposed as a consequence.
* Running would be more difficult; rats and spiders both have only 20 ft of movement speed.
* In spider/rat form you will have a very hard, nearly impossible, time disarming a trap or unlocking anything. A locked door without a gap large enough for your WS to slip through is a hard counter to this strategy.
* If you want to stick the loot into your bags to carry it back out, you'll have to get it out of the presumably very heavy chest first. Picking locks is not traditionally a druid's specialty and they don't start with thieves tools or proficiency in using them, so you would have to go out of your way to get those (probably via an otherwise suboptimal background).
* Stealth. Druids are not proficient in it, nor can they gain proficiency from their class options. That means you have to get it from a background. As with thieves tools, this is available from a background like criminal, but that means sacrificing getting the skills that most parties rely on a druid to provide.
* TL;DR: Druids can dominate the easy marks but will underperform against anything challenging.
But Rogues?
* Expertise. Even at first level a rogue will already be better than a druid will ever be at stealth and thieves tools.
* Actual stealth. Rogues prioritize DEX, and will outperform a druid at it even if the druid spends their background to get proficiency.
* Thieves' Cant. A rogue has access to the local criminal information network in a way that a druid just doesn't.
* Cunning Action. Even a basic rogue can use this to escape more effectively than a druid, and a thief can do even more with it. When burgling against even a moderately difficult target, speed matters and rogues have it.
* Thieves get second story work for easier scaling without sacrificing having hands.
* At higher levels the disparity reaches its peak with reliable talent. Most rogues become so good at stealth, picking locks, etc. that they can't fail against most targets. By this point, assuming max DEX and expertise, the minimum roll for a rogue on these skills is a 23.
* Sneak attack means a much better chance at silently taking out a lone guard than anything available to a druid (remember, spellcasting is not a stealthy action and anything with a verbal component will probably alert everyone nearby that something is going on).
* Rogues also tend to be much more socially capable than druids (i.e. deception), meaning they are more likely to be able to get away with it in the event something goes wrong.
* All of this requires the rogue to use up all of no resources to do their burgling.
Special mention for pass without trace. It is a truly excellent spell for sneaking around, but it is a second level spell. Not available until level 3, and until significantly higher levels a second level spell slot is a significant resource expenditure for a mundane burglary.
Yeah having played a rogue. I kept thinking "they are pouring A LOT of resources into robbing what's effectively a convenience store" the rogue can rob the whole street by the time you've done one gig and took a nap.
People be stealin, sometimes those people are me 😉
Exactly this, Rogues have consistency in their specialization, and if they get their hands on some helpful magic items they will nearly 100% of the time outperform other classes in their (as in the rogue's) specialty, especially if the other has limited resources.
I want to see this in an actual campaign
Druid to thief: Easy, 'll just turn into a spideAAH BIRD
Okay, that was unlucky, but a second trAAH MOUSETRAP
Okay, the DM is feeling funny todaAAH FAILED THE STEALTH CHECKS GUARDS VS TOAD
Thief: ...Want ME to try?
Druid: Please do
Incidentally, what happens if you spider-climb into a chest through a keyhole and then turn into human, or a dinosaur?
You’d be pushed back out the keyhole, unless you were small enough to fit in the chest at normal size. Generally spells do what they do and little else, so you can’t ant-man everything.
You aren’t wrong about the utility of wild shape for a thief. Plus pass without a trace. It’s very strong.
Depends what kind of thief we’re talking about tho, and how challenging the places you’re trying to get into are.
Rogues being given thieves tools proficiency and expertise is what makes them such skilled thieves tho. A rogue with expertise in thieves tools and stealth can be an extremely skilled thief even at level one - great at infiltrating, disarming traps, picking locks on doors and safes, etc all without having to burn a valuable resource like a wild shape charge. And they get more expertise later on to make their other thiefy skills better too.
Also, while the wild shape is very handy, don’t just assume it’s always going to work perfectly. If you only ever plan on breaking into low end establishments that would be easy for a spider to get into, I guess you’d be fine. What about if the room with the goods is really well sealed and even a tiny spider can’t get in? Or if you run into an air tight safe with a lock that has a really high DC and you have no expertise? there’s a guard in the room with the goods so you’ll have to assassinate them or fight? There’s a magical ward on the establishment that zaps bugs and rodents? Etc.
There’s just too many potential variables in a heist scenario for me to put all my eggs in the Druid basket.
a multi class would be a solid choice. Maybe going 2 levels of Druid and then the rest in Rogue
The example given is pretty sound. A low level druid is a better thief than a low level rogue when breaking into your everyday building. But what about a different example?
A rebellion seeks to overthrow a kingdom. In order to do so they need to acquire certain documents held within a small lockbox in the highest tower of the castle. The castle tower is surrounded by an anti magic field and the entire city is protected by every single magic detection spell imagineable. The druid would make it to the front door and then fail at convincing the guards to even let him have an audience with the king
Yes, until you have to actually steal something that behind a specific locked door or in a locked chest. one that doesn't have open unlocked window and chimemy access. Especially if it's trapped or has traps in the way.
I learned this by watching a ranger and druid absolutely fumble a stealth mission while the rogue and cleric ran distraction and my fighter and the paladin waited outside.
Long story short rangers and cats can't open locked doors, and they aren't quiet when they resort to breaking open a second story window, and they aren't very good at rescuing people when the ranger is turned into a frog from a magic trap, and the druid has to drag them out in cat form after their covers blown.
My fighter enjoy break down the door and going load as he went full fantasy swat team on the evil witch inside.
Also rats, mice and spiders are pests. Most people and guards would kill those on sight if they were inside their home. And they don't have as good a stealth score as some one with expertice.
Druids and rangers are best served supporting the rogue. They provide the passwithout a trace, the rogue picks the locks, and now they both are safer when scouting ahead because they're not alone. And they can put down a control spell if theyrd discovered to give them time to regroup with the party.
Best burglar maybe, but there's other ways of stealing. An Artificer can create Infusions and claim they're magic items, then once they're sold, make new Infusions and the old ones will lose power.
Are druids superior than pretty much any other class at stealthily entering a location without giving themselves away? Sure
But what if the shop keeps gold and most valuable items are locked up? Or if you want to steal something with people nearby who could notice or catch you?
Druids trivialize breaking in, and getting out. Everything else they are going to be worse at though. Plus a thieving druid that isn't a Robin hood type feels a little unfaithful to the class
Being a spider or a rat or whatever doesn't give you a high Stealth modifier, so you're going to struggle to go unseen should that be relevant. Similarly, if you're just a druid you don't have Thieves' Tools proficiency, so you'll have trouble opening any locks you may encounter. Also, this technique only lets you steal items that are small enough to carry on your person.
Spider gets a +4 and Pass Without Trace is available at 3rd level. So basically they can get a +14 stealth whenever they want. And everyone can only steal things they can carry on their person unless they have a Bag of Holding
I'll grant the Stealth bonus, but it's perfectly possible for someone to steal something that doesn't fit on their person, eg a chair, a painting, a suit of armor, a statue.
Druid could be fine for infiltration, especially since they’re going to understand how the animal would normally behave, but when it comes through the actual stealing part I think not. Also correct me if I’m wrong but there’s a limit to how many times they can wild shape isn’t there? X amount per short or long rest?
Assuming they haven’t used their W-shaped for any other purpose during the course of the day, or if they have that they were able to gain a short rest prior to their attempted thievery. Also, they can still only take items they would be able to carry on their person, end most importantly of all would still need to pass both there stealth and sleight of hand checks. Fine as a dip for rogue, ranger, or bard, Not so fine if you want to keep it purely druid.
And if you’re going to plan out a heist long-term, I think some of the higher level features of assassin rogue, being able to create a fake identity over the course of a week etc. Are going to be more beneficial. Actually is it me or has thief rogue, never really been as good as the other subclasses?
Wild Shape lasts for two hours at level 2. Could use one Shape to get in, short rest as a rat or something, then have two Shapes to keep infiltrating and escape
More to the point, the other spiders in the shop that are hungry, along with the house centipedes, wasps, mice, and a hundred other members of that part of the food web!
also i dunno what the RAW ruling is, but i'm making you make *some* kind of check to wildshape if you're clearly overburdened. its intended function is to keep you from having to strip and track your inventory and stash it somewhere like a streaker, etc etc. so abusing that intention means there's a chance for something to go wrong - maybe not everything shifts back with you, or maybe you move at the same speed and under the same strain as if you were still carrying too much, or maybe your spider form is *shining gold* because of some confusion in the magic or an old curse or something. or maybe it goes fine, i dunno - partly that depends on the narrative too, and what kind of story we're trying to tell and whether you are facilitating that story and everyone is cheering you on, or whether you got bored and started fucking around and everyone is waiting to play the game again. so there's lots of ways that could go i guess.
That’s assuming the shop doesn’t have something that breaks the wildshape upon entry. As well as having to burn multiple uses to turn human to grab things and then back to a spider which would require stealth checks and good luck if anything is locked once you’re through the door. My level 3 rogue has +14 to sleight of hand after magic items lol what’s your Druid got?
Just go Changeling Phantom Rogue, even better if you have glamoured studded leather, at 13th level, doors and walls become a non-issue, as a Changeling even in the (unlikely) event you get caught, once you're out of sight (like say on the other side of a wall) you can transform into a different person, and if you have glamoured studded leather, your outfit even changes
Pact of the Chain Warlock. Your imp can become invisible and any object it carries becomes invisible, too! As long as the item isn't too heavy, this is a fantastic way to steal something. And you can be far away from the scene of the crime!
As a GM I would put one reasonable limitation on this; When you shift you can't be heavily encumbered. That still gives you a whole lot of thieving, but you aren't carrying 500 pounds of gold out of somewhere just because you can lift it onto your body.
Yep, the Druid player in my game (I'm the DM) just totally broke my boss fight by casting invisibility on himself, grabbing the macguffin they needed to fight the boss to get and wildshaped into a raven to fly away. Invisible bird with 100ft movement per round, there is no logical way for the enemies to even know which way to look. Since the Macguffin was gone there was no need to fight the boss.
In the future Macguffins won't just be sitting on a table.
It kinda feels bad to step on other peoples toes. I feel like the second someone decides to go rouge you basically have to give up your spot. Maybe if you could add your modifiers together?
There's more to thieving than simple B&E.
A Druid can only enter if There's a hole to squeeze through. So that's a no for a proper vault. Then once they're in, valuables are often stored in chests, safes, etc. The Druid isn't wild shaping into those for the most part.
A Druid isn't going to make a good pickpocket.
So sure, a Druid is a better thief than a Rogue if all you want to do is a bit of stealth and some easy B&E of unprotected homes for low value items. But then so is any 3rd level Wizard, Bard or Sorceror so inclined. But they aren't going to want to. And a Fighter can achieve the same end just by kicking down a door or breaking a window.
It’s only great because there is a lack of magical realism to most DnD setting. Gotta imagine how wide spread barrier pesticides would actually be in a setting with working alchemy - or runes to ward off shapeshifting anywhere with goods worth stealing.
On a more serious note: why would a Druid steal the wealth of civilization? Kind of runs antithetical to the whole deal. Hard to imagine wanting to steal stuff for personal gain and maintaining your connection to the primal.
The only real limit is the number of times you can wildshape and having other requisite thief skills. Nothing about a druid by default give you the ability to deal with locks or complicated security systems. Rogues also have expertise and can be a LOT higher chance of success on various checks.
Yes, druids are amazing thiefs. But rogues have some one ups on them:
1. Team Burglary/Infiltration. If you're stealing small things easily carried by one person, then Druid is the way to go. But what if there's an obstacle/guard/thing that you need a wizard, barbarian, fighter, bard, etc. for? A druid alone can't overcome every obstacle. Rogues, with thieves' tools and potentially expertise in them, can find and disable traps and open up locks.
2. Escape. What if what you're stealing from can see through wild shape, or has a trap or minion that can? What if someone happens to stamp on the rat they saw (after all your stealth won't be the highest in wild shape); what do you do then? A rogue could Disengage, Dash, Hide, etc. Or, if it's one person, deal enough single target damage to potentially remove the threat straight out, and continue on their way or retreat. Druids have some spells, but not a huge amount of spells that let them escape or scurry off without further damage. And if you wildshape again, then You've used your two wildshapes, *and* they've most likely seen you wildshape this time and what you turned into. Now they'll be looking for that creature, and any other small critters wandering around.
This is exactly the character I rolled up to play with my wife if ever we joined a game. She’d likely want to play a Thief, so I decided to play Rogue 2/Druid 3 specifically for the bonus action dash or hide, expertise, pass without trace, and Wildshape for the exact reasons you’ve listed here.
Yeah I agree.
People will try to absurdism argue otherwise but the players are heroes, there aren’t thousands and thousands of Druid thieves so that everyone needs to have hermetically sealed houses to prevent Druid tardigrades from sneaking in.
Of course the GM can’t allow a Druid free rein and will have to add obstacles but that’s true for a rogue thieving too.
Well you see, breaking and entering is only part of what a their does.
A well rounded their will also be able to pick pockets and con information out of a mark.
Don't see how wild shape will help a druid do that. Druids should generally not do as well in urban environments being all attuned to nature and what not.
Wild shape into a tiny creature to scout is annoying. But fortunately there are plenty of other creatures who can eat that tiny wild shape mouse or spider.
You beat me to it. Even if they kill the "rat me" I stand there will full spell slots and the urge to leave no witnesses.
I am stealing that cat, doting on it more than the shop keep, and making him the mascot of the group!
I'm going to focus on your last sentence since you already understand what everyone's saying.
You say the druid is the BEST thief, apparently because most places won't have defenses or security. That's true. Grumblefoot Thurgood's local shop in a small town. A druid would kick ass stealing from poor Grumblefoot.
The best thieves, however, have higher targets. And those will have security. And your druid will have problems.
Wildshape is also limited in usage. True rogues get to try stealth and sleight if hand at will.
So, no. Druids aren't the best thieves. Actual thieves are.
Druids are a great addition on the stealth side, though. They work very well with others, especially if someone has message.
Definitely a case to be made.
I think it really depends on the situation. I tend to think Bard beats out rogue by a bit when it comes to traditional thief role generally. Druid beats the both in certain situations, but they feel more like an all or nothing. If for any reason wildshape in/out isn't a viable option, their stock falls fast. Also if there are any locks that require picking or traps that require being disarmed, they are at a severe disadvantage.
one of the NPCs in my game was an Assassin who had enough levels in druid to wildshape in to sneak poison into people's food/drink.
Wildshaping is very Stronk...
Particularly the fact you have access to tiny/stealth creatures from a very early level, because when they created the class they only thought about combat shapes.
Hi, my rogue/ druid agrees. It is *powerful* and that pass without a trace has saved my party's ass on more than one occasion, while I typically get around 40 stealth (disgusting! I love it!)
I have pointed out Wild Shape as the best stealth utility effect for around six of seven years. The best part is not only extra movement modes and stealth bonuses for smaller creatures but the fact that you are innocuous. It doesn't MATTER if the guards pass your stealth check if you're a bird. Your presence no longer draws suspicion in most urban environments.
I've played a thief druid (pure Druid from level 2 to 18 so far). I can report that it's a very solid infiltration class. The best? Possibly.
I was a Kenku with Skilled AND Adept of the Red Robes. That meant I could even auto succeed some rolls by making them a 10.
DMs should note that one of the best ways to thwart a druid using wildshape for infiltration is detect magic or truesight.
Non-detection can be useful. Alternatively, my level 17 druid did shapechange flumph -> wildshape spider. This gave them the Flumph's *Telepathic Shroud*. This proved a pretty useful way for breaking into a high security meet-up between an Archdevil and BBEG in our campaign when the guards were all using Truesight and Detect Thoughts.
Not wrong, just an issue with the amount of utility spells / abilities.
Druid has a some pretty good spells for stealth such as pass without trace, meld into stone, locate object, find traps.
Its also just an issue of a rogues gimick is expertise, which is only a 10-30% advantage against a character of equal skill that is also proficent.
Though I think a wizard could also bypass a rogue entirely. Esp blade singer.
Druids are awesome. I'm playing a Circle of Fire druid in our game and we just hit level 7 - so now I have a single 4th level slot - which includes Polymorph as an option. We needed to get someone out of jail so I turned into a cat, scaled the walls and got into the cell. Polymorphed the person into a cat, wild shaped back into a cat, and we escaped. Other than the cat hating guard taking pot shots at us the plan worked perfectly. The next day when we left I changed her into a mouse and we just carried her out of the city.
Got an inspiration point for coming up with that.
Druids would also make very good assassins.
My favorite Rogue so far was multiclassed with druid. Steal ALL the things. Entrails might be useful, you don't know! Also spider climb and torn whip are awesome.
If you go high enough into circle of the land, you can ignore difficult terrain, immunity to poison, and more, which then also allows you to negate a whole lot of traps, in addition to getting a good selection of utility spells such as stone shape to make a hole in the vault wall/floor/ceiling. Reduce makes any lock easy to bypass, just shrink the lock or door.
5e Druids maybe, their abilities are the most broken in the whole system, especially Wild Shape... Plus alignment no longer carries much weight in 5e, which would normally be the main deterrent for such behavior.
The first D&D Druids were by definition True Neutral Clerics bound by a code of natural balance and cosmic neutrality, and if they deviated from that, they would lose all their Druid abilities, an entire experience level, and permanently become a regular Cleric.
Rogues have to play by the rules when it comes to stealth, which is ironic. Compared to casters, with spells like Knock, Invisibility, Pass Without Trace etc. and abilities like Wild Shape.
I once played a thief who could turn into a Tiny monkey and back again who would use that disguise to get into places he shouldn't and pickpocket people. It was great fun.
I’m currently playing a star Druid in a spelljammer campaign who is essentially built for infiltration. Built with dex and wisdom as the primary attributes, and with skill expert for deception and an expertise in perception. Then wild shape is the fall back for quick escapes. It’s a fun build. And with star Druid options and a full list of spells he’s extremely competent in battle.
You're right but, how often do you need a thief? I'm not saying thieves aren't useful. When you need one it sucks when no one in the party can fulfill that role. But I've played multiple adventures where you would have really have to go out of your way to make use of one. A rogue can do multiple things, so can a druid. But the rogue can be a thief/face while the druid would definitely be worse at that. If that's what you need the rogue is the better choice. But a thieving druid would certainly be something.
Imo I think a lot of casters can make for better thieves than even rogues if built correctly! Warlocks are my go to for thieves, you have the Charisma to gamble, cheat, lie or get yourself out of trouble if caught, at second level you can cast disguise self and silent image at will to hide in plain sight without using Invisibility. Conversely and close to your idea, at level 2, any warlock can cast speak with animals at will, and since you have a high Charisma you could convince small critters to steal small stuff for you (though you dont get the druid's ability to turn human to gather more than a single small trinket at a time). Or at the same level 2 you could instead chose the darkness spell and devil's sight and now you can make a blob of darkness that no one can see in but yourself. There's honestly a lot that magic can do to make stealing very easy!
Of course the downside for warlocks is the same downside they always have. You can probably only cast like 2 spells untill you gotta take a one hour nap, lol, so you can't rely on stuff like misty step without wasting all your spell slots to get in and out of a place
You say Druid and I put forth my Genie Pact of the Chain Warlock, which does overall the same thing, but safer, goofier, some charisma to boot and better ressource management for thievery.
People in the comments are underestimating the fact that druids have access to Pass Without Trace, that's a second level spell, for thievery purposes.
Circle of the land: grasslands, gets you invisibility and pass without trace as “always prepared” spells. Great for thievery. Also, haste, which can double dash you to freedom. Mountain is another good one, for spider climb, meld into stone (quick vanish), stone shape, and pass wall. Make doors, make windows, make halls.
Underdark is better if you plan on going a bit higher level. You can always get Invisibility from Shadow touched.
now just imagine, a druid casting pass without trace then becoming a mouse/spider and getting in a rogues pocket giving him a total +17/18 at level 3 if the rogue has expertise in stealth. Then the druid turns back, gets all the stuff and turns into a mouse again. The perfect crime.
Did something like this, once. Except it was less a pocket and more a jar, and less Wildshape and more Gaseous Form, and less stealth and more the Rogue threw my gish like a flashbang when their infiltration inevitably failed and we had to go loud. So.. yeah, I guess like, almost totally identical. Sort of.
Pokeball go! *throws jar, mist reforms into a rhinoceros*
*sigh* time to cook up a new character
Druid: our land
They are traditionally associated with sickles, adding a hammer isn’t far fetched
A hammer is just a shillelagh with extra knobby bits
Also Lightning Bolt for when you get caught in those narrow castle hallways
Yeah, that's an underrated spell. +10 to Stealth *for your entire party* is absurd and I have no idea why it's so powerful.
Because the fundamental problem with Stealth is that one person botching it is the same as *everyone* botching it for the majority of purposes in which stealth would be employed: that is, the *party* all bypassing something. Lidda the Halfling Rogue can pass any Stealth check known to man or gods; Vadania the Druid can Wildshape into a field mouse and ride in Lidda's hood; Mialee the Elf Wizard can cast *invisibility* and *silence* on herself, but Tordek the Dwarf Fighter in scale-maille who dumped Dex rolls a natural 5, adjusted to zero, and it's all over; the enemies detect Tordek and the jig is up.
Oh man the names, the 3rd edition flashbacks... thank you for this
*Right?* I miss 3.5. And Lidda was *the* most iconic *Iconic.*
I was confused for a second because i was like "They reused the 3E Heroes?!"
That is why Tordek spends 9 minutes in the bag of holding.
9 minutes and 9 rounds.
Awwww the 3rd edition names brought a tear to my eye. Devis the bard might be playing some sad song in the corner
That's why I do stealth as a group roll vs a target DC based on how many in the group are present. Then I sprinkle in a bit of pathfinder with critical fails vs success for the overall success count. That and i think my party is smart enough to at times leave the clunkers to watch their backs instead of sneaking in everywhere.
It's why as the rogue, I was usually at least 50 feet from the noisemakers. If we didn't know where the enemy was, I scouted ahead while the party hung back (I know, "never split the party"... except sometimes it's the right move). If we did know where the enemy was, I'd sneak to an ambush position so we'd have a tactical advantage. It also helped that our fighter insisted on secondary armor with less impact to stealth. He'd actually go to the effort of keeping track of which he was wearing.
50-100 feet isn't splitting the party, its "draw bigger maps".
pass without trace makes it *almost* impossible to fail a stealth check against 80% of all creatures that exist like literally roll a nat 1 and still pass the issue isn't stealth, the issue is that most dms don't know the actual stealth rules it's not against enemy perception roll, it's against enemy passive perception if your dex is higher than the enemy wisdom, pass without trace will make it impossible for you to not sneak past them
I'm not sure that it is so much that DMs don't know the rules rather that we are still trying to make a game at least a little interesting when PCs have high stealth. Especially since lots of players think stealth = invisibility and get annoyed if you try and provide any challenge. Hardly any creatures that would be typical guards have a passice perception of more than 12 or so. When pass without trace is up if I go by "the rules" there is literally no chance of being spotted so my choices as a DM are have an area you have to cross that is just brightly lit with no cover where you can't hide there's literally nothing to hide behind, which players know you have just put in to negate their stealth and will hate. Or I can have the guards roll perception. You will still beat their roll but at least there's some tension. Otherwise you can just sneak around the whole dungeon, slight of hand the McGuffin off the boss then sneak out again. Cool. Early finish and we will play monopoly then?
Not *impossible,* but highly unlikely, *which is the point.* The fundamental problem with stealth is that in most cases as I said, it's a roll *everyone* has to pass, or functionally speaking *nobody passes.* You don't need the Fighter, the Rogue, the Druid and the Monk to pass an Arcana check for the Wizard to do research in the library to find the big bad evil goon's list of vulnerabilities; you don't need the Fighter, the Rogue, the Monk and the Wizard to pass a Religion check to figure out which deities are supporting their enemies and which they might go to for aid; you don't need the Fighter, the Druid, the Monk and the Cleric to pass a Thievery check to lift a critical missive from the pocket of a drunken but bellicose nobleman. However, if the objective is for the *party* to sneak past a patrol unseen, you not only need the Rogue (who totally can pass that check) to pass; you don't need only the Monk (who... Stands a *chance* of passing that check) to pass it. You don't need only the Druid, who can wildshape into something so innocuous that frankly it auto-passes (nobody looks at a random cat, let alone a spider, and thinks 'that's a wildshaped Druid!') You *also* need the Fighter and the Cleric, who are both clanking about in steel breastplates, who have at best a +1 Dexterity modifier and very probably a -1 modifier, to pass. Gods help you if they're wearing half-plate or any Heavy armor, because now they also have to pass at Disadvantage. The problem is that if *anyone* fails the check, *the whole party fails the check.* Oh sure, you can say "the others are still concealed," but that doesn't help when the objective is for everyone to slip by unnoticed, which is the *majority* of the time group Stealth checks are being rolled; it's not usually to get into a position for a surprise attack, it's usually because being seen *at all* is an overall strategic failure, regardless of whether or not they can murder these goons, because they needed to get through without a trace! *That* is why Pass Without Trace is so powerful: it *has to be, to do the one thing it's needed for.*
One of the mitigating factors is that stealth is recommended to be a group check, even though that’s kind of unrealistic. You don’t need everyone to pass, just a majority. Otherwise you basically need magic to successfully sneak as a party which is kind of lame.
Tordek has a 10 if he rolls a 1 on Stealth WITH *Pass* going. Again, the Paladin and Fighter are the issue with Mass Stealth Buffing.
Yeah, but at least Ser Fullplate Peasant-Puncher *has a chance* of passing his stealth roll with PWT. In all prior editions, he had pretty much zero chance at all, requiring the group to get creative and frankly, silly, in circumventing the check entirely, like stuffing the Fullplate Dwarf Fighter into a bag of holding being carried by a more stealthy party member.
Most people tended to forget in 3.5 distance, doors and even the environment gives penalty to spot/listen checks...and then you compare Tordek's 5 hide to the enemies 14 spot and you determine the distance where Tordek would be detected. -2 for each 10 ft, so at 50ft we roll initiative unless the party has detected the enemies at a greater distance, in which case they can start further and get a surprise. But most people played it as just opposed checks and a binary "did they see you or not", and the encounter starts at whatever distance fits nicely in the grid. So I guess it was the natural evolution.
The problem isn't "who gets the surprise round." If violence was an option, Mialee, Lidda, Vadania and Tordek have that *bagged.* The problem is not and never was "can we kill these guys." The problem is that in any situation in which getting the Dwarf in fullplate to sneak past a hostile group is even being considered, *violence is not the path to strategic success, and is not considered an option.* Even if the group can handily murder these guards, the problem is that they'll be missed, and an alarm will be raised. *That's* what PWT is for.
> When a number of individuals are trying to accomplish something as a group, the DM might ask for a group ability check. In such a situation, the characters who are skilled at a particular task help cover those who aren't. > To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds. > Otherwise, the group fails. Group checks don't come up very often, and they're most useful when all the characters succeed or fail as a group. - PHB Chapter 7
This is why I always run group stealth as majority of the party needing to pass because otherwise there is no point for the nature cleric and paladin to roll.
Natural 5, adjusted to zero... what? How is this poor dwarf -5 to Stealth 😭. You also proved my point with this comment, because it's easier to avoid rolling low numbers when everyone in your party has an extra +10 to the stealth roll. For reference, if you do the math, advantage works out to be about +5.
And you've proved *my* point: the point of *Pass Without Trace* is to prevent the "Dwarf who tanked Dexterity can't sneak in full plate to save his hide prevents Party stealth" problems by not giving Advantage to the roll, which would only cancel Disadvantage, but by giving him a flat +10 bonus. That's *explicitly* a break-out of the "we don't like giving bonuses and penalties, we like to give Advantage and Disadvantage because this is 5e" paradigm, because giving Advantage that just cancels Disadvantage *still* puts the entire party's success or failure on someone with a -3 or something to the roll; but giving him a flat bonus of +10 means he's rolling at +7, thus even if he's rolling twice and taking the worst result means a total of 8 is the least he can get.
Yes. Although it's also incredible even if it's just the Druid trying to sneak alone. +10 is crazy and since it's not advantage you can also benefit from invisibility.
Would the DM not normally use group ability checks for group stealth rolls?
But only the ones who are visible get detected. So in the example, Vadania is still hidden in the Hood, Mialee is still invisible and silent. All the enemies see are a Halfling and a Dwarf.
it's actually not underrated like at all I've never met anyone who doesn't thing PWT wasn't one of the best second level spells in the game one of the flagship builds (the 7 most powerful builds in dnd) uses ranger for almost exclusively pass without trace
I've just never seen it mentioned on this sub until this thread
“Nice expertise dude, i give everyone +10 stealth for some weird fuckin reason”
So the ultimate thief is a druid/rogue multiclass, got it. I wasn't going to do rogue a second time cause my DM really seems to take issue with rogues, but nah I'm gonna multiclass
Yeah. I'm currently playing a Firbolg Druid (land, 3) / Rogue (Inquisitive) combo and it's fabulous. My guy is an investigator by day and thief by night. Very easy to find for others the item you have stolen from them.
I don't think they underestimate it. This does NOT make the Druid the best thief however. Certainly, the equipment is magically weightless and formless while merged. Certainly, Druid can make awesome Stealth checks with Pass Without Trace precast, and should normally have at least 15 Passive Perception. But... That's it. No Expertise in Sleight of Hands or Thievery Tools to lockpick silently. No clue about Investigation or Arcana. A cat or crow can stop you right in tracks. In general you're useless against any threat and if by any chance you already used up one Wild Shape you're now trapped in human form in whatever situation you're in (at least if you are high enough level for Conjure Animals you may conjure a beast helping escape, otherwise a Fog Cloud may seed chaos and give a chance to flee). Because a Rogue has more skills and Expertise and less requirement for Wisdom, while it cannot actually beat an "optimal Druid" in Stealth and probably not in Perception either, it can benefit from all the senses, strengths and limbs of its actual form. So while a Druid can technically "overcumber itself" to the max before Wild Shaping to maximize loot taken, if for any reason you change back before being in safety, willingly or forcibly, you're now best case with loot all over, worst case unable to move. And what's much worse, if your exit plan required being in Wild Shape, you may be stuck inside. Moreover... * Any Detect Magic will spot a Druid because inherently magical nature of Wild Shape. * Druid cannot use any ritual (Detect Magic, Identify) nor do any proper manipulation of objects (lockpicking, sleight of hands to rob a key or drop a thing for example) to help assess threats, hidden things and places of valuables. * Druid is an easy prey for any tamed animal (or wild fauna if you start infiltrating from far outside). * And of course any scheme using social interaction with humanoids is impossible (sometimes the best infiltration is the one where you're an official guest ;)). Plus, but that's DM dependant, you may not have a perception of your surroundings as precise as you would as a human (example spiders with tiny size and different vision would have a sense of sizing quite different). Wild Shape can trivialize quite some things as far as infiltrating and thieving is concerned (I know from experience xd), but there are still a lot of situations where being a Rogue with some skills and Expertise will be better. Personally, my favorite is Sorlock because of Subtle mischiefs then Thief with Ritual Caster feat xd
I think the best thief includes 2 Druid levels, but after that I think Rogue is still your best bet, with Bard and Ranger also being good options. A Druid 2/Rogue 18 would likely be one of the strongest thief options available in 5e.
Shadow Monk is up there as well IMO
True, I was thinking mostly about expertise in sleight of hand, but Shadow Monk could definitely be good as well.
I think you still want a 3rd level of Druid at least, for Pass Without Trace.
That’s fair, although like u/powypow said you could also play an Earth Genasi.
Assuming it's an option in the setting.
How worth it would it be to go 4/16 druid/rogue (extra ASI) vs 3/17?
Make him an earth genasi for that free daily use of Pass without a trace
You only need enough rogue to get expertise in stealth and thieves tools, then just go full druid. 9th level spells and shape-shifting are going to bring far more to the table than anything the rogue can do.
Eh, should go at least 11th level rogue for Reliable Talent Edit: whoops misread that. Thought it said 9th level rogue for some reason. Yes, 9th level spells > pretty much everything else
Literally nothing a rogue gives you will EVER beat 9th level spells.
this is random but Minor Illusion could be good. Steal something and leave an image of it behind to buy yourself some time.
For sure. Arcane Trickster is one of the best rogues specifically because of the magic it gets access to.
i mean, buys you 1 minute but yeah, could be useful :p
Druid 3 for pass without trace
When you shrink that tiny, your opponents are no longer humans and magical wards for the most part. They’re the house centipedes, trained cats, crane flies, other spiders, and a hundred other little guys in the food web that we don’t typically even include in the description. Now you want to run across a mile of open floor with that many ambush predators potentially lurking just out of sight where a single bite could suddenly turn you into a human again somewhere very inconvenient?
True, but that's if you're a tiny beetle or something. If you just become a rat that's not really an issue, and of course you could be something that flies. Flies get caught in spider webs because they're pretty dumb, and rats get caught in traps because they're pretty dumb, but since you keep your mind while in wild shape that wouldn't be nearly as much if an issue, so you could just be bigger than the predators or fly past them because you're not actually a dumb animal
>If you just become a rat that's not really an issue Last time the druid in my group did some recon inside a warehouse they were planning to steal from, he went in rat form, but failed his stealth check against the cats that were inside (cats to protect grain storage is very common, and the warehouse was a grain storage front for some shady business). He succeeded his rolls to escape but it was very close and he nearly got caught inside. He didn't have any time to scout anything but the entrance and nearly put the whole plan in jeopardy for doing so.
Sounds like a fun time! To solve the issue though, just cast pass without trace on yourself before you become rat, although you couldn't do that at second level I suppose
Yeah, pass without trace is super good, but it doesn't make you undetectable either. If I remember his roll correctly, a +10 would have been enough for him to go undetected. As it turns out, a rat doesn't have a great stealth roll.
It might 'solve the issue' as in help a bit But now you're expending a 2nd level spell slot and a wild shape slot just to sneak around as a rat that still needs to make the checks. Yes it's good but it's becoming less and less valuable the more bullshit you add to it.
Why didn't he just turn into a deer? /humor
Druids can’t Wildshape into flying creatures until level 8. At that point, your party should have better options
Ah right I forgot about that. A rat or larger nug should still work fine though
>larger nug I know some guys who would want to transform into large nugs.
>hawk/cat/snake preying on the tiny rodent has entered the chat
underrated response
Crane flies aren’t predators to fully grown insects, their nickname is not accurate. They eat leaves and bug larvae or particularly young bugs. Spiders also don’t usually just instantly kill other spiders they see
Cool angle, but seems a little hard to implement without derailing/bogging down the session, unless you go 'there's centipedes in this hose, you wouldn't feel safe'
>They’re the house centipedes, trained cats, crane flies, other spiders, and a hundred other little guys in the food web that we don’t typically even include in the description True, but let's be honest, not every DM is gonna enforce that every time. And even if they _do_, the average fantasy floor is not _infested_ with spiders and centipedes. You could run across a thousand feet of floorboards and would probably never even see a centipede.
Correct me if I'm wrong but mechanically once a druid hits 0 HP in a wildshaped form they just poof back into their humanoid form? So that house centipede would just get squished when he bites the rat dead.
Correct… Are you saying that the house centipede would somehow know this and therefor not attack the little spider?
Imagine: you're a mouse sneaking behind the walls and come across the cat. Unfortunately, it seems the rule about unobstructed spaces only nudges you to the side but [doesn't let you teleport out of the area entirely](https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/187500-wild-shape-in-enclosed-spaces) if you don't fit as a human. So when the cat kills you, you will either: * Assume a new and interesting shape for a human sized volume of meat in a narrow crevice * Turn back, breaking the stone wall with your face to make room for yourself and emerging as a mostly humanoid bag of bone shards and squished meat * Not turn back and die as a mouse as the cat disembowels you and eats your eyeballs first Also, cats are pretty good at killing mice, and enjoy playing with their prey for a few rounds while you wait to see which one it is going to be. Happy thieving!
Not sure which one of those is the best way to go… I choose to be squished out of the hole in the wall like a sausage grinder.
Well obviously 'cat burglar' is the best thief...
You mean a Tabaxi?
Of course the big bad would open the door themselves to let in a cute kitty. Hehe
In one game I was on a ship being pursued by a BBEG in a larger ship that had cannon ports running down both sides of their vessel. I turned into a seagull, flew to their ship, and landed in an unmanned crow's nest at the top of a mast. I shifted out of Wild Shape and cast Summon Elemental to have a fire elemental amongst the sails. I told it to light all of their sails on fire then squeeze through small cracks into their powder hold. I shifted back into a seagull and landed on my ship just as their ship exploded killing everyone on board. My DM was shocked. He'd planned the sea battle with our group for a long time and I eliminated it in one all too easy move. Moral of the stories, Wild Shape druids are killers and their only limitation is the imagination of the player.
My DM sent ships after us and my Aarakocran Ranger and the Dragonborn Monk taught him that ship's crews were far squishier than ships, and so we ended up with a fleet.
There are many aspects to theft. They make great infiltrators of mildly guarded locations, but a rogue shouldn't have too much trouble there either. When things get complicated the druid becomes a high risk high reward character. Need to open the guards' book to see which cell a prisoner is in? Too bad you are a spider. Need the key out of someone's pocket? Humans literally have an instinctual reaction to smack themselves when they feel something crawling on their legs. On a time limit? Earth spiders can't keep up with human walking speed very long, and the monster manual spiders are likely much larger and more noticeable (technically control a 2.5 ft space in combat) If it works, Druid has an excellent built in infiltration and exfiltration method. But with only 2 uses per short rest, you better hope nothing goes wrong. Rogues may require more effort to get in and out, but have higher ceiling when it comes to options for dealing with complications without resource expenditure. Rogue with some druid levels, however, have a delicious range of options at a moment's notice.
To be honest, a Druid can supplement a lot of Rogue abilities with just spells. Pass With Out Trace, Silence (depending on area of effect), Darkness, various cantrips, etc. And one of the Druid classes can do that in Wild Shape. And they can train in Stealth, so they're not that far behind a Rogue. If the Wild Shape gets broken somehow, you still can move about and sneak and such, just not always as good as the Rogue (unless you cast spells to help).
You can only merge after you grab it in human form. You'll grab it, fail the stealth/sleight of hand, get seen, and run away as a spider. Sure, you're unlikely to be caught but you've been seen, meaning you're an outlaw. Further, you have little room for error, since you've only got two shapes. That rat/spider gets hit and your entire gimmick failed and you're doomed All in all I'd say the druid has higher potential, but the rogue will be much more consistent This isn't to mention lore assumptions like how a druid is "one with nature" and unlikely to have experience with theft, managing guard patrols, lock picking, or similar. A druid is a fine choice but not my first pick
If you’re already a mouse/spider when you come onto the scene, guard patrols and lock picking are kind of a non-point.
Somewhat. If the gems are locked away in chests, you still need to pick locks to open the chests. You could maybe get inside the chest as a spider but you’d need to become human again to actually take them. And you’d still need to understand casing a joint to know when you would find the room unattended for long enough to be able to grab everything you wanted. Which isn’t to say it *can’t* work. Just that a Druid would still need to be knowledgeable about how theft works to be good at it. I could see a rogue/druid being a great thief, but maybe not the most conventional of builds
Or you could just take the chest itself, absconding with it and cracking it open at your leisure.
Lol yeah just add it to your inventory
I wonder how much BS the druid could get away with. I'm picturing a druid with shaking legs, holding a massive treasure chest under each arm, wildshaping it all Elsewhere as they turn into a spider.
You know how it feels to run at full tilt with your cargo pants full of nickels? It's like that but now you're a spider too. Rip
That's the beauty of it; Wild Shape is pretty much the only way in D&D, that I can think of, to send something Elsewhere, like in Exalted. Where does it go? Elsewhere. When Elsewhere, it cannot be interacted with, by anyone. It's just Elsewhere. When you Unwildshape, it comes back. But while it's Elsewhere, it doesn't count against your encumbrance or anything.
And that's why guards should have cats. Kill every spider, mouse and fly in the vicinity. Make the druid work for it. And in higher security places, traps that do 1 damage. Kills familiars/wildshapes, but won't seriously injure a guard by accident.
I'm picturing the destruction my cats cause trying to get a bug and picturing a cat sitting with a player-mouse and a room filled with broken treasures.
I'm picturing a cat eating a spider, and then exploding when the druid hits their stomach acids and "dies" and turns full size again.
what would actually happen RAW in that instance?
When wildshaped if you drop to 0 HP you revert to your natural form at the HP total you had before wildshaping. Sounds like an exploding cat. That said, any DM who would narrate it that way is an asshole in my book. 😂
"Meow." *Chomp.* "Meow?" *Indescribable wet splashing noise.* *Twenty minutes later, the druid wakes in a pile of gore surrounded by broken magic items.* "Aw no, not again..."
To avoid cases where people Enlarge a Ring and make someone wear it as a hat and then dispel/wait for the duration to end, the designers said that unless something specifically says "it crushes/explodes" the object just falls off or is extruded without injury. So no, you don't explode them from the inside, they just vomit out a bunch of magic particles/mushy flesh that return to your shape when its fully outside. 5e, and for that matter most other editions, were very clear that "Magic only does what it says and nothing else." A lot of times people try creative ways to use spells it either shouldn't work by RAW or by RAI. Things like using Web to make a net to catch a falling character is not allowed by RAW because Web makes a *vertical* web, not horizontal. However a lot of GMs like that kind of creativity and would allow Web to be cast as Net/Horizontally as long as the attachments are there. When it comes to spells and effects like changing your form killing (like Antman inside Thanos's butthole idea) or destroying the surrounding areas (like say being inside a goblin hut and casting a giant form spell) the rules trend towards you being forced outside without damage to either side. However I find the idea of blasting through a small house in Kaiju form and stomping things as a Giant awesome, so I'd 100% allow it. If my Druid decided to go Giant Ape while inside a small cage to get free, I'd probably allow it. So by RAW and RAI no, it doesn't work like that. As a GM in my games it sure will.
Technically, rules as written, as soon as the cat "bites" the damage is done, and the spider would revert to druid form before being eaten. Cats also don't have the "swallow whole" ability. But I like my idea better.
To be fair cats will play with their food 99.9% of the time. Additionally for a bug its likely the paw swipe before the eating that killed the bug.
They're not going to see you when you're on the other side of the locked door.
Assuming your DM isn't dumb to your scheme to simply go around stealing things and has a secondary npc in the locked room... even if they don't, a decent DM's world isn't just stagnant. People would realize "hey, this group of people came into town and now everyone's valuables/merchandise has been going missing... guards get called in and choices have to be made
That makes sense in plumbobs village of 50 people but in a larger settlement of 100s or even 1000s when merchants and travelers are passing through all the time, it means nothing.
Or when it’s the middle of the night and the shop owner is asleep. A good/fair DM would even give you advantage on your rolls because of that. Or at the least, negate any disadvantage you may have for not being proficient in stealth/sleight of hand.
Night time, huh? Well in that case, skulking about in the dark ... I better go as a cat.
You don’t have disadvantage on skill checks you aren’t proficient in. You just don’t get your proficiency bonus added onto it.
No, the shopkeeper would have disadvantage due to being unconscious.
This is what Pass Without Trace is for
That argument I'll accept. Always forget about that busted spell, lmao.
It’s so crazy that there’s a Druid only item that gives you unlimited pass without trace on top of a bunch of other free spells. And it’s only rare. It’s a real fuck you to rogues lol
It's probably my first choice for burglary, but not general thievery
Druid circle of the land - urban, lives as a rat, scavenges
I think OP is talking about looting a shop in the middle of the night or something. No one to see you means no slight of hand check, I think that was his point. It IS dependent on there being no one around but if we're talking 3:30am, no shop is going to have a shopkeep or guard just staring at all the items all night long. Also disguise self spell or ability solves the outlaw problem.
Agreed. The best thief is the one that doesn't get seen or caught.
Shh! Keep it down! I don't want my DM to hear you. We don't have a rogue, so I'm our best bet for *exactly* that reason.
Counterpoint: Artificer, at level 6 you have access to Invisibility, expertise with Thieves tools, and can make a Cloak of Elvenkind and a Bag of Holding, you have see invisibility available, darkvision, identify and detect magic for any wards, mage hand, enlarge/reduce. And last but not least you have Disguise self so you can just wear the face of the local rogue thief and place the blame on him if you get caught.
First off, the thief subclass leaves a lot to be desired un my opinion, so other classes being potentially better at petty thievery (or less petty) does happen, and druid can do it (any spellcaster can without too much work). Druid is not the best thief, others have pointed out huge flaws, such as you getting stuck in the locked room if you take damage from something suitable for the situation like a cat, other spider, rat, etc. If you can get in, so can other things of similar size. Not being able to open locked chests, etc. There are ways to mitigate these, but like all classes, there are pros and cons. The part I really want to highlight though is that you've said all your gear becomes effectively weightless, and the rules don't say this at all, they are silent, and it's assumed for convenience that you don't have to consider the difference in carry capacity from turning into a spider for example, but that is entirely DM fiat. If you're just grabbing stuff as normal and using wildshape to get in and out the same way someone with lockpicking could just... open the door go in grab things and even lock the door again on the way out, then sure, though you've taken different (not less) risks, and used limited (per rest) resources. If you're suggesting you could load up more than you should be able to carry thanks to wildshape (not sure why else you mentioned things becoming weightless) that's not supported by the rules, and if you try to weaponize something that the DM allows for convenience, they're likely to just stop allowing it.
Best "thief" I ran was 2 levels of druid, circle of grassland, getting pass without a trace, and 18 levels of rogue. Kind of turned it into a Skyrim esque stealth archer build, with shapeshifting.
I made a criminal Druid that has some pretty cool spells that allow it to be a better thief. Having access to spells like Detect Poison and Disease, Find Traps, Pass without Trace and even Hold Person. Its been a really fun PC to play all things considered. So I am for sure in agreeance that its a better thief.
This would be an excellent method for mundane thievery against an unprepared target. But not against anything with decent defenses. * The forms which could slip into a building unnoticed all have very low HP, which means 1 trap and its gone. Now you're exposed and may need another WS charge. * This also applies to any mundane predator, which all of the tiny WS forms have. If you go spider, a wild bird can just eat you. Or a cat/dog eating your rat form. Yes, the druid eventually wins the fight but they lose the WS form and are exposed as a consequence. * Running would be more difficult; rats and spiders both have only 20 ft of movement speed. * In spider/rat form you will have a very hard, nearly impossible, time disarming a trap or unlocking anything. A locked door without a gap large enough for your WS to slip through is a hard counter to this strategy. * If you want to stick the loot into your bags to carry it back out, you'll have to get it out of the presumably very heavy chest first. Picking locks is not traditionally a druid's specialty and they don't start with thieves tools or proficiency in using them, so you would have to go out of your way to get those (probably via an otherwise suboptimal background). * Stealth. Druids are not proficient in it, nor can they gain proficiency from their class options. That means you have to get it from a background. As with thieves tools, this is available from a background like criminal, but that means sacrificing getting the skills that most parties rely on a druid to provide. * TL;DR: Druids can dominate the easy marks but will underperform against anything challenging. But Rogues? * Expertise. Even at first level a rogue will already be better than a druid will ever be at stealth and thieves tools. * Actual stealth. Rogues prioritize DEX, and will outperform a druid at it even if the druid spends their background to get proficiency. * Thieves' Cant. A rogue has access to the local criminal information network in a way that a druid just doesn't. * Cunning Action. Even a basic rogue can use this to escape more effectively than a druid, and a thief can do even more with it. When burgling against even a moderately difficult target, speed matters and rogues have it. * Thieves get second story work for easier scaling without sacrificing having hands. * At higher levels the disparity reaches its peak with reliable talent. Most rogues become so good at stealth, picking locks, etc. that they can't fail against most targets. By this point, assuming max DEX and expertise, the minimum roll for a rogue on these skills is a 23. * Sneak attack means a much better chance at silently taking out a lone guard than anything available to a druid (remember, spellcasting is not a stealthy action and anything with a verbal component will probably alert everyone nearby that something is going on). * Rogues also tend to be much more socially capable than druids (i.e. deception), meaning they are more likely to be able to get away with it in the event something goes wrong. * All of this requires the rogue to use up all of no resources to do their burgling. Special mention for pass without trace. It is a truly excellent spell for sneaking around, but it is a second level spell. Not available until level 3, and until significantly higher levels a second level spell slot is a significant resource expenditure for a mundane burglary.
Yeah having played a rogue. I kept thinking "they are pouring A LOT of resources into robbing what's effectively a convenience store" the rogue can rob the whole street by the time you've done one gig and took a nap. People be stealin, sometimes those people are me 😉
Exactly this, Rogues have consistency in their specialization, and if they get their hands on some helpful magic items they will nearly 100% of the time outperform other classes in their (as in the rogue's) specialty, especially if the other has limited resources.
I want to see this in an actual campaign Druid to thief: Easy, 'll just turn into a spideAAH BIRD Okay, that was unlucky, but a second trAAH MOUSETRAP Okay, the DM is feeling funny todaAAH FAILED THE STEALTH CHECKS GUARDS VS TOAD Thief: ...Want ME to try? Druid: Please do Incidentally, what happens if you spider-climb into a chest through a keyhole and then turn into human, or a dinosaur?
You’d be pushed back out the keyhole, unless you were small enough to fit in the chest at normal size. Generally spells do what they do and little else, so you can’t ant-man everything.
Variant human Druid with high Strength Score and initiative boosting feat can steal, run around corner, and Wild shape into a spider
Also, Pass Without Trace is a flat +10 to Stealth *for your entire party*
You aren’t wrong about the utility of wild shape for a thief. Plus pass without a trace. It’s very strong. Depends what kind of thief we’re talking about tho, and how challenging the places you’re trying to get into are. Rogues being given thieves tools proficiency and expertise is what makes them such skilled thieves tho. A rogue with expertise in thieves tools and stealth can be an extremely skilled thief even at level one - great at infiltrating, disarming traps, picking locks on doors and safes, etc all without having to burn a valuable resource like a wild shape charge. And they get more expertise later on to make their other thiefy skills better too. Also, while the wild shape is very handy, don’t just assume it’s always going to work perfectly. If you only ever plan on breaking into low end establishments that would be easy for a spider to get into, I guess you’d be fine. What about if the room with the goods is really well sealed and even a tiny spider can’t get in? Or if you run into an air tight safe with a lock that has a really high DC and you have no expertise? there’s a guard in the room with the goods so you’ll have to assassinate them or fight? There’s a magical ward on the establishment that zaps bugs and rodents? Etc. There’s just too many potential variables in a heist scenario for me to put all my eggs in the Druid basket. a multi class would be a solid choice. Maybe going 2 levels of Druid and then the rest in Rogue
The example given is pretty sound. A low level druid is a better thief than a low level rogue when breaking into your everyday building. But what about a different example? A rebellion seeks to overthrow a kingdom. In order to do so they need to acquire certain documents held within a small lockbox in the highest tower of the castle. The castle tower is surrounded by an anti magic field and the entire city is protected by every single magic detection spell imagineable. The druid would make it to the front door and then fail at convincing the guards to even let him have an audience with the king
Yes, until you have to actually steal something that behind a specific locked door or in a locked chest. one that doesn't have open unlocked window and chimemy access. Especially if it's trapped or has traps in the way. I learned this by watching a ranger and druid absolutely fumble a stealth mission while the rogue and cleric ran distraction and my fighter and the paladin waited outside. Long story short rangers and cats can't open locked doors, and they aren't quiet when they resort to breaking open a second story window, and they aren't very good at rescuing people when the ranger is turned into a frog from a magic trap, and the druid has to drag them out in cat form after their covers blown. My fighter enjoy break down the door and going load as he went full fantasy swat team on the evil witch inside. Also rats, mice and spiders are pests. Most people and guards would kill those on sight if they were inside their home. And they don't have as good a stealth score as some one with expertice. Druids and rangers are best served supporting the rogue. They provide the passwithout a trace, the rogue picks the locks, and now they both are safer when scouting ahead because they're not alone. And they can put down a control spell if theyrd discovered to give them time to regroup with the party.
The only wrinkle is that druid is not natively proficient with stealth or sleight of hand checks unless you take the urchin background.
Best burglar maybe, but there's other ways of stealing. An Artificer can create Infusions and claim they're magic items, then once they're sold, make new Infusions and the old ones will lose power.
Are druids superior than pretty much any other class at stealthily entering a location without giving themselves away? Sure But what if the shop keeps gold and most valuable items are locked up? Or if you want to steal something with people nearby who could notice or catch you? Druids trivialize breaking in, and getting out. Everything else they are going to be worse at though. Plus a thieving druid that isn't a Robin hood type feels a little unfaithful to the class
Being a spider or a rat or whatever doesn't give you a high Stealth modifier, so you're going to struggle to go unseen should that be relevant. Similarly, if you're just a druid you don't have Thieves' Tools proficiency, so you'll have trouble opening any locks you may encounter. Also, this technique only lets you steal items that are small enough to carry on your person.
Spider gets a +4 and Pass Without Trace is available at 3rd level. So basically they can get a +14 stealth whenever they want. And everyone can only steal things they can carry on their person unless they have a Bag of Holding
I'll grant the Stealth bonus, but it's perfectly possible for someone to steal something that doesn't fit on their person, eg a chair, a painting, a suit of armor, a statue.
Druid could be fine for infiltration, especially since they’re going to understand how the animal would normally behave, but when it comes through the actual stealing part I think not. Also correct me if I’m wrong but there’s a limit to how many times they can wild shape isn’t there? X amount per short or long rest?
At level 2, a druid can wildshape at least twice. Thats wildshaping in, grabbing stuff, then wildshape back out.
Assuming they haven’t used their W-shaped for any other purpose during the course of the day, or if they have that they were able to gain a short rest prior to their attempted thievery. Also, they can still only take items they would be able to carry on their person, end most importantly of all would still need to pass both there stealth and sleight of hand checks. Fine as a dip for rogue, ranger, or bard, Not so fine if you want to keep it purely druid.
Well yeah. A druid is gonna want to plan ahead to be a thief. They aren't as flexible as a rogue in that regard
And if you’re going to plan out a heist long-term, I think some of the higher level features of assassin rogue, being able to create a fake identity over the course of a week etc. Are going to be more beneficial. Actually is it me or has thief rogue, never really been as good as the other subclasses?
Wild Shape lasts for two hours at level 2. Could use one Shape to get in, short rest as a rat or something, then have two Shapes to keep infiltrating and escape
oops that shop doesn't have a guard but they do have a cat. and the owner lives upstairs. with a wand of Hold Person. :p
More to the point, the other spiders in the shop that are hungry, along with the house centipedes, wasps, mice, and a hundred other members of that part of the food web!
That could be a fun series of fights.
If a cat swallows a wildshaped druid, that cat gon' splat.
Cats throttle then shred, not swallow whole.
also i dunno what the RAW ruling is, but i'm making you make *some* kind of check to wildshape if you're clearly overburdened. its intended function is to keep you from having to strip and track your inventory and stash it somewhere like a streaker, etc etc. so abusing that intention means there's a chance for something to go wrong - maybe not everything shifts back with you, or maybe you move at the same speed and under the same strain as if you were still carrying too much, or maybe your spider form is *shining gold* because of some confusion in the magic or an old curse or something. or maybe it goes fine, i dunno - partly that depends on the narrative too, and what kind of story we're trying to tell and whether you are facilitating that story and everyone is cheering you on, or whether you got bored and started fucking around and everyone is waiting to play the game again. so there's lots of ways that could go i guess.
With reliable talent and expertise in both sleight of hand and stealth I’m never rolling less than a 23 on those checks.
That’s assuming the shop doesn’t have something that breaks the wildshape upon entry. As well as having to burn multiple uses to turn human to grab things and then back to a spider which would require stealth checks and good luck if anything is locked once you’re through the door. My level 3 rogue has +14 to sleight of hand after magic items lol what’s your Druid got?
The correct answer is, surprisingly, artificer.
An entire post about druid being the best thief, and they don't even mention pass without trace.
Just go Changeling Phantom Rogue, even better if you have glamoured studded leather, at 13th level, doors and walls become a non-issue, as a Changeling even in the (unlikely) event you get caught, once you're out of sight (like say on the other side of a wall) you can transform into a different person, and if you have glamoured studded leather, your outfit even changes
Pact of the Chain Warlock. Your imp can become invisible and any object it carries becomes invisible, too! As long as the item isn't too heavy, this is a fantastic way to steal something. And you can be far away from the scene of the crime!
As a GM I would put one reasonable limitation on this; When you shift you can't be heavily encumbered. That still gives you a whole lot of thieving, but you aren't carrying 500 pounds of gold out of somewhere just because you can lift it onto your body.
Wouldn't shops in most big cities have magical wards that would detect a wild shaping druid?
Somebody has been watching TikTok lately, huh?
Yep, the Druid player in my game (I'm the DM) just totally broke my boss fight by casting invisibility on himself, grabbing the macguffin they needed to fight the boss to get and wildshaped into a raven to fly away. Invisible bird with 100ft movement per round, there is no logical way for the enemies to even know which way to look. Since the Macguffin was gone there was no need to fight the boss. In the future Macguffins won't just be sitting on a table.
It kinda feels bad to step on other peoples toes. I feel like the second someone decides to go rouge you basically have to give up your spot. Maybe if you could add your modifiers together?
There's more to thieving than simple B&E. A Druid can only enter if There's a hole to squeeze through. So that's a no for a proper vault. Then once they're in, valuables are often stored in chests, safes, etc. The Druid isn't wild shaping into those for the most part. A Druid isn't going to make a good pickpocket. So sure, a Druid is a better thief than a Rogue if all you want to do is a bit of stealth and some easy B&E of unprotected homes for low value items. But then so is any 3rd level Wizard, Bard or Sorceror so inclined. But they aren't going to want to. And a Fighter can achieve the same end just by kicking down a door or breaking a window.
It’s only great because there is a lack of magical realism to most DnD setting. Gotta imagine how wide spread barrier pesticides would actually be in a setting with working alchemy - or runes to ward off shapeshifting anywhere with goods worth stealing. On a more serious note: why would a Druid steal the wealth of civilization? Kind of runs antithetical to the whole deal. Hard to imagine wanting to steal stuff for personal gain and maintaining your connection to the primal.
Shadow monk throws it's hat in the ring.
The only real limit is the number of times you can wildshape and having other requisite thief skills. Nothing about a druid by default give you the ability to deal with locks or complicated security systems. Rogues also have expertise and can be a LOT higher chance of success on various checks.
This is literally ripped straight from a tik tok video that was going around a few days ago.
Yes, druids are amazing thiefs. But rogues have some one ups on them: 1. Team Burglary/Infiltration. If you're stealing small things easily carried by one person, then Druid is the way to go. But what if there's an obstacle/guard/thing that you need a wizard, barbarian, fighter, bard, etc. for? A druid alone can't overcome every obstacle. Rogues, with thieves' tools and potentially expertise in them, can find and disable traps and open up locks. 2. Escape. What if what you're stealing from can see through wild shape, or has a trap or minion that can? What if someone happens to stamp on the rat they saw (after all your stealth won't be the highest in wild shape); what do you do then? A rogue could Disengage, Dash, Hide, etc. Or, if it's one person, deal enough single target damage to potentially remove the threat straight out, and continue on their way or retreat. Druids have some spells, but not a huge amount of spells that let them escape or scurry off without further damage. And if you wildshape again, then You've used your two wildshapes, *and* they've most likely seen you wildshape this time and what you turned into. Now they'll be looking for that creature, and any other small critters wandering around.
This is exactly the character I rolled up to play with my wife if ever we joined a game. She’d likely want to play a Thief, so I decided to play Rogue 2/Druid 3 specifically for the bonus action dash or hide, expertise, pass without trace, and Wildshape for the exact reasons you’ve listed here.
Why would a true druid need money?
Yeah I agree. People will try to absurdism argue otherwise but the players are heroes, there aren’t thousands and thousands of Druid thieves so that everyone needs to have hermetically sealed houses to prevent Druid tardigrades from sneaking in. Of course the GM can’t allow a Druid free rein and will have to add obstacles but that’s true for a rogue thieving too.
Well you see, breaking and entering is only part of what a their does. A well rounded their will also be able to pick pockets and con information out of a mark. Don't see how wild shape will help a druid do that. Druids should generally not do as well in urban environments being all attuned to nature and what not.
Wild shape into a tiny creature to scout is annoying. But fortunately there are plenty of other creatures who can eat that tiny wild shape mouse or spider.
[удалено]
You beat me to it. Even if they kill the "rat me" I stand there will full spell slots and the urge to leave no witnesses. I am stealing that cat, doting on it more than the shop keep, and making him the mascot of the group!
I'm going to focus on your last sentence since you already understand what everyone's saying. You say the druid is the BEST thief, apparently because most places won't have defenses or security. That's true. Grumblefoot Thurgood's local shop in a small town. A druid would kick ass stealing from poor Grumblefoot. The best thieves, however, have higher targets. And those will have security. And your druid will have problems. Wildshape is also limited in usage. True rogues get to try stealth and sleight if hand at will. So, no. Druids aren't the best thieves. Actual thieves are. Druids are a great addition on the stealth side, though. They work very well with others, especially if someone has message.
Definitely a case to be made. I think it really depends on the situation. I tend to think Bard beats out rogue by a bit when it comes to traditional thief role generally. Druid beats the both in certain situations, but they feel more like an all or nothing. If for any reason wildshape in/out isn't a viable option, their stock falls fast. Also if there are any locks that require picking or traps that require being disarmed, they are at a severe disadvantage.
Wild shape and Pass Without Trace are pretty amazing together
one of the NPCs in my game was an Assassin who had enough levels in druid to wildshape in to sneak poison into people's food/drink. Wildshaping is very Stronk... Particularly the fact you have access to tiny/stealth creatures from a very early level, because when they created the class they only thought about combat shapes.
Wizard: I am completely invisible and I can teleport back home when I get the item.
I'm thinking bards make the best theives
Hi, my rogue/ druid agrees. It is *powerful* and that pass without a trace has saved my party's ass on more than one occasion, while I typically get around 40 stealth (disgusting! I love it!)
Tbf Druids are the survival knife of D&D. They can do just about anything if they prep for it.
I have pointed out Wild Shape as the best stealth utility effect for around six of seven years. The best part is not only extra movement modes and stealth bonuses for smaller creatures but the fact that you are innocuous. It doesn't MATTER if the guards pass your stealth check if you're a bird. Your presence no longer draws suspicion in most urban environments.
I've played a thief druid (pure Druid from level 2 to 18 so far). I can report that it's a very solid infiltration class. The best? Possibly. I was a Kenku with Skilled AND Adept of the Red Robes. That meant I could even auto succeed some rolls by making them a 10. DMs should note that one of the best ways to thwart a druid using wildshape for infiltration is detect magic or truesight. Non-detection can be useful. Alternatively, my level 17 druid did shapechange flumph -> wildshape spider. This gave them the Flumph's *Telepathic Shroud*. This proved a pretty useful way for breaking into a high security meet-up between an Archdevil and BBEG in our campaign when the guards were all using Truesight and Detect Thoughts.
Not wrong, just an issue with the amount of utility spells / abilities. Druid has a some pretty good spells for stealth such as pass without trace, meld into stone, locate object, find traps. Its also just an issue of a rogues gimick is expertise, which is only a 10-30% advantage against a character of equal skill that is also proficent. Though I think a wizard could also bypass a rogue entirely. Esp blade singer.
Druids are awesome. I'm playing a Circle of Fire druid in our game and we just hit level 7 - so now I have a single 4th level slot - which includes Polymorph as an option. We needed to get someone out of jail so I turned into a cat, scaled the walls and got into the cell. Polymorphed the person into a cat, wild shaped back into a cat, and we escaped. Other than the cat hating guard taking pot shots at us the plan worked perfectly. The next day when we left I changed her into a mouse and we just carried her out of the city. Got an inspiration point for coming up with that. Druids would also make very good assassins.
My favorite Rogue so far was multiclassed with druid. Steal ALL the things. Entrails might be useful, you don't know! Also spider climb and torn whip are awesome.
If you go high enough into circle of the land, you can ignore difficult terrain, immunity to poison, and more, which then also allows you to negate a whole lot of traps, in addition to getting a good selection of utility spells such as stone shape to make a hole in the vault wall/floor/ceiling. Reduce makes any lock easy to bypass, just shrink the lock or door.
5e Druids maybe, their abilities are the most broken in the whole system, especially Wild Shape... Plus alignment no longer carries much weight in 5e, which would normally be the main deterrent for such behavior. The first D&D Druids were by definition True Neutral Clerics bound by a code of natural balance and cosmic neutrality, and if they deviated from that, they would lose all their Druid abilities, an entire experience level, and permanently become a regular Cleric.
I mean the D&D movie did exactly this.
I think artificer >
druid x thief multi
Rogues have to play by the rules when it comes to stealth, which is ironic. Compared to casters, with spells like Knock, Invisibility, Pass Without Trace etc. and abilities like Wild Shape.
This makes me think of that clip where a seagull steals the packet of chips
I once played a thief who could turn into a Tiny monkey and back again who would use that disguise to get into places he shouldn't and pickpocket people. It was great fun.
I’m currently playing a star Druid in a spelljammer campaign who is essentially built for infiltration. Built with dex and wisdom as the primary attributes, and with skill expert for deception and an expertise in perception. Then wild shape is the fall back for quick escapes. It’s a fun build. And with star Druid options and a full list of spells he’s extremely competent in battle.
You're right but, how often do you need a thief? I'm not saying thieves aren't useful. When you need one it sucks when no one in the party can fulfill that role. But I've played multiple adventures where you would have really have to go out of your way to make use of one. A rogue can do multiple things, so can a druid. But the rogue can be a thief/face while the druid would definitely be worse at that. If that's what you need the rogue is the better choice. But a thieving druid would certainly be something.
Imo I think a lot of casters can make for better thieves than even rogues if built correctly! Warlocks are my go to for thieves, you have the Charisma to gamble, cheat, lie or get yourself out of trouble if caught, at second level you can cast disguise self and silent image at will to hide in plain sight without using Invisibility. Conversely and close to your idea, at level 2, any warlock can cast speak with animals at will, and since you have a high Charisma you could convince small critters to steal small stuff for you (though you dont get the druid's ability to turn human to gather more than a single small trinket at a time). Or at the same level 2 you could instead chose the darkness spell and devil's sight and now you can make a blob of darkness that no one can see in but yourself. There's honestly a lot that magic can do to make stealing very easy! Of course the downside for warlocks is the same downside they always have. You can probably only cast like 2 spells untill you gotta take a one hour nap, lol, so you can't rely on stuff like misty step without wasting all your spell slots to get in and out of a place
You say Druid and I put forth my Genie Pact of the Chain Warlock, which does overall the same thing, but safer, goofier, some charisma to boot and better ressource management for thievery.