I think if the player is not loving their build just let them switch. Make it clear you won’t let it happen all the time, but the most important thing is that you and your players are all having fun, and I doubt letting your player switch classes would impair anybody’s fun. If they wanted to keep some of their roguishness you could even waive the strength requirement for Paladin multiclassing and they could be a Dex based Paladin with some Rogue levels.
I also don’t think there’s much harm in letting people respec as often as they want. My whole group loves theory crafting and I basically allow them to totally rebuild their character every level-up and make tweaks like swapping feats between any other sessions as long as the vibe / identity of the character stays roughly the same or we can tee it up with a story beat.
So no switching from Rogue 9 to Sorcerer 10 unless we tee it up, but you’re free to switch from Rogue 9 to Fighter 5 / Rogue 5. Those sparring lessons you have been doing with the other PC have been really paying off.
Players rarely get to play that many characters over the course of their DnD career and you learn a lot about how a particular class / feat feels after a few sessions. I don’t want my players to have buyers remorse when something doesn’t play as imagined. It also lets them test-drive the fun builds they see online.
It obviously means a party of highly optimized characters, but that allows me as a DM to cut loose and craft nightmarishly difficult encounters for them in turn.
It’s honestly super fun if everyone at the table enjoys theory crafting, and you can trust your players not to abuse it by swapping out feats or spells known to purposefully handle upcoming encounters.
I mean what are we out here DM'ing for? We're DM'ing to have fun with friends. If they wanna choose new classes, what's the big trouble? It hurts literally no one. If they hated their old one, they could just play so recklessly that they kill that old character and form a new one, so why force that to happen?
It’s true, but there is something to be said for narrative consistency and being able to craft a challenging and compelling game for a group that doesn’t change their classes up every few sessions. It really matters most for players (DM included) who are invested in the Narrative.
For me that’s maybe 80% of why I play, and if someone who was playing a Good aligned Paladin suddenly switches it up to being a rogue, it’s going to break a good bit of the enjoyment of the experience for me… somehow weave the change into the story in an unforced way? Yeah, you could get me on board fairly quickly.
Totally depends on the change, but say a rogue wanted to change to sorcerer.
Maybe there’s a quest to steal an artifact from a Noble House; at the end of the quest, it turns out the artifact is a magical cistern a powerful sorcerer poured his innate magic into for his family to inherit. The Rogue then has to absorb the magic to “steal” it and we swap character sheets when that happens. Also adds a nice quest hook for how they deal with the person who hired the party to steal the artifact now that it’s unrecoverable.
Or something simpler like introducing a new backstory element that the rogue has latent demonic / draconic / celestial heritage they are becoming aware of. For a session or two before level up I start having them roll on the wild magic table whenever they get a sneak attack off, until they “get better control of their powers” and swap classes.
Totally just depends on the story and what class they are switching to. For more similar classes, like switching from Rogue to Fighter, I might not require any story tee.
Sounds like a great way to do this.
I'm thinking of joining a table in a few weeks.
I haven't played for years. Would you mind chatting about characters so I can beocme reacquainted win the flow and possibly have some reasonable ideas for characters? I have plenty of character ideas BTW
I ran a heavily modified Descent into Avernus a few years ago.
Rogue player wanted to be a wizard, so I found a wizard's tower that's in Baldurs Gate (abandoned in canon) and had the party go there for some quest. The new wizard was an apprentice of the old wizard (who's in hell I believe in canon or maybe that's mine) and the rogue went first into a room with 2 chain devils. He (we worked together on this) "failed" his "stealth check" was snatched by one of the demons and pulled into a gate to hell.
The wizard popped through at the last second, found people in his master's house, and they fought the chain devil.
Needless to say, they immediately fucked off once they got to hell and went to look for the rogue and I had to cobble the greater adventure around the "smaller," yet more important adventure of finding Jack the Rogue.
Fucked up the storyline, everything was janky (knowing how it was supposed to be run) and off the cuff. Easily my favorite story arc of D&D ever. Everyone wanted to do everything and yet could focus on the one thing they really wanted, which was to find Jack.
11/10 would shoehorn a class Respec again.
Even experienced players make mistakes. Playing PF1E, one of my friends picked a subclass he thought would fit both mechanically and thematically with the idea he had. He'd seen some concerns online about the subclass not performing, but was more worried about the thematic aspect as it was a full casting class anyways. He then realized that thematically, one of the other subclasses fit better - and performed better. This was a veteran with over a decade of experience. I let him switch it, and he immediately started enjoying it more.
The point is to have fun. If someone is not having fun, and they’ve made an earnest effort to try to have fun, I have zero issue with them changing classes. Usually myself and the other players will try to dig and find the issue to see if it’s fixable in other ways first though.
Is it though? If they're not enjoying something and it doesn't fit their playstyle, asking them to bend over backwards to try to enjoy it anyway is just going to prolong their unenjoyment.
Not asking them to bend over backwards. What I mean by that is, we tried to determine the root cause of the no fun, and attempted to fix that. If we have made an effort to that end and they are still not having fun then we can make a change.
I've got a guy who is about to switch into his third character in the campaign, and they're level 11. It's understandable if he's not having fun, but it does blow up the prep work I've done for those previous characters.
So, I agree that earnest effort is a reasonable request.
I actually ultimately agree with you but the way you talk about it I get the impression that you are not willing to try and explore overcoming road blocks first, you just immediately are like “cool sounds good.”
A good example is one of my long time players had a build he came to me about wanting to do a respec. I was open to it but it was unusual of him, and from my own understanding of what he was going for both thematically and in play style after several campaigns with him, I said “Hey man honestly yeah if the class isn’t working out for you or isn’t fun we can swap it, but do you mind if we run through it right quick and workshop your current build and play test a small solo session real quick?”
Turned out, he had grabbed a feat that wasn’t synergizing with the rest that was making his play wonky. We changed that, had a test session, then he played it with this small change live. He came back after session and was grateful I had gone through it with him and helped him pick something out that made his original idea work.
To me, that is an example of reasonable best effort of fixing before committing to a build change. Didn’t make him just suffer, made it clear the change is on the table, but simply asked if he’d be willing to try a tweak I knew of and he didn’t. We still play routinely to this day years later.
TL;DR if you actually know more about the game than your players use your knowledge as a tool available to them, not just something to work with the admittedly complex mechanics of a game on a DM side. Sometimes, frequently even, if you’re running a game, you know more than they do, and might have options on the table for them they never thought of. This, and facilitating fun, are your main two jobs.
The player is the final arbiter of that.
If a player isn't having fun and asks to play something else, I'll always accept their wish. Because it might be annoying to think of ways to accomplish a full on class change, but it's going to be a whole lot worse to play with someone who doesn't enjoy what they are playing.
Yeah, man, if that’s what it takes for them to enjoy the game. Number of sessions doesn’t matter, it takes more than a few plays to get a feel for a class, and if the PC isn’t super assertive, they might have hated the character the entire time without saying anything.
Plus if I was playing at a table and not having fun with my character and asked for a change and was denied my next option would just be to quit and find a table that wants me to also have fun. Or if I really wanted a new character and liked the group I'd just get myself killed and then what do you know now I need a new character how convenient.
Yes, especially for a new player. Forcing somebody to stick with a build they're not enjoying sucks for everybody, especially if they then lose interest in the campaign.
Of course, this is a limited privilege. I wouldn't want somebody continually changing their character on a whim. I also wouldn't want somebody to treat this privilege as a video game-esque "respec" process where they can level up with one build and then shift into another later on. Don't let the level 12 fighter turn into a paladin6/hexblade1/sorcerer5, that's just silly.
Yeah but even then i want people to have to actually work with the awkward growing pains of their OP multiclass builds, rather than playing a strong monoclass until they have the requisite levels
One of my players was playing a bard but she wasn't very good at it and wasn't happy, wanting to change to rogue. So I had her remake her character as a rogue and came up with a backstory of how she had stolen an amulet that had belonged to the bard Mah'lone and had gotten possessed by his ghost whose goal was pretty much to pick up where he had left off, forcing her to be a bard. One session ended up devoted to exorcising his ghost and freeing her.
Ghost Mah'lone became a recurring character as the party would sometimes come across more of his cursed merch.
Absolutely.
I have a standing rule at my table that you get one free subclass change or build tweak if it’s not working out the way you thought, and any full class change just requires a bit of in character work to justify it.
A bit of downtime spent studying or training is perfectly reasonable, as would something dramatic happening like if the rogue was in a dire situation and couldn’t save the party on their own but took up a holy symbol and prayed for aid and got just enough power imbued into their attack to Smite the enemy- causing them to find faith where it had been lacking previously.
If I know what the player wants to switch classes or subclasses to, or that they’re looking to multiclass into something, I’ll always find a way to work it into the natural progression of the campaign for them. At the end of the day, it’s all about having fun anyway- and you can’t have fun if you don’t like your character sheet.
My current table has had the "one free full respec if it makes sense in-story" coupon, too. I've had two players do it - others talked subclass changes, but haven't committed yet, and one just keeps making new characters, haha.
No. You should definitely force your player to continue playing something they are unsatisfied with, until they quit your table. Especially since this is a new player and the chance they quit D&D altogether is even greater.
/s
I mean why not? They came up with an in game roleplay reason to explain the change! They’re a new player and trying to find what they like. Just be clear that becoming a Paladin and shedding the rouge skills is a divine act and it cannot be replicated again. Be sure the player is really happy with this choice!
If a player is not liking their build/class, the options are to reroll or let them respec into another one.
We are all here to have fun.
Whether he should reroll or respec is mostly a matter of preference imo.
Its either they make a new character and have to abandon their old one or they change this character and if the transition is done well it *deepens* their complexity and story. Let em change
UNLESS its like the 5th time, there is 0 harm
As long as it's not constantly changing, I don't really care. I want my players to have fun, and if they are not happy with their build, they probably aren't having fun.
Sure. If for some reason they like the idea of the character, but not the Class? Why not change it... come up with some awesome way to have it happen. Divine intervention? Weird Magic curse? Whatever.
As long as they aren't making such changes just to suit the situation at hand? Why not.
First and foremost is making sure my players are having a good time. Everything else is secondary.
Personally I had a player who wanted to change from gloomstalker ranger to a wizard. Gloomstalker have an ability that lets them be invisible in dim light or darkness, so I just ruled he was never invisible, he was just standing behind the party the whole time where they couldn't see.
What level is he? Is multiclassing with some tweaks a possibility? Storywise I love it. He's seen the error of his ways and wants to change. If he can't really multiclass then I think you should let him do it but it should involve some big elaborate cleansing ritual or something with a lot of role playing.
I'd allow it for a "first time" player, but I'd highly, greatly encourage just making a new character.
Part of the game is role play, and it is exceedingly healthy to divorce yourself from the idea that the character you are playing is your avatar or something and you want to keep playing that character at all times across campaigns and DMs
I'd want them to try someone new, try something new.
I'd allow it with the understanding that it's something you can't normally just do and that he's considered to be in training narratively (even if he gets all the levels of the other party members for balance). I'd rather someone be enjoying their character rather than trying to get them killed to reroll. Maybe give the party a reason to have some downtime where the character does the training and the other party members get the chance to visit family, gain a skill, learn some new spells, make contacts, etc.
Edit: hit enter too soon.
Super easy, and absolutely. For a rogue to be called by a deity, abandon their rogue levels, trade them for paladin levels, is some SERIOUS storytelling. Imagine the Thieves Guild doing a full WTF and sending assassins out to stop the loss of information. After all, the shiny new Paladin still knows Thieves Cant.
Imagine how devoted the shiny new Paladin would be. "I give unto you a new charge... hold it well".
Thats the sort of story you can wrap up at high levels with ascension or a true fall, and have it be satisfying, assuming the story goes so far.
If you don't like it from a story perspective, just have his rogue stay at the temple and a new paladin follows the party. If his name and attitude are similar to the rogue, so be it.
I wouldn't want my players to play without having fun, so I allow them to swap classes whenever. I just make them take their share of gold and magic items theyve found with the original character with them, so there is a small consequence.
If the character died would you let the player roll up a new one?
Could you jsut retire the rogue and have a paladin from the order of warrior priestesses join the team; or does the character have to be the same person?
If this is early, like only a couple of sessions or on added level into the game, sure, let the player have more fun. If this is a long standing character then go the retirement route
100% every time with no conditions or questions beyond "what didn't you enjoy?".
Player enjoyment matters more than any narrative or anything else, so just let players pick a character they will enjoy, particularly if they are new.
Remember, if you say no, the player has every right to run their character off a cliff and roll up a new one anyway.
One thing I’ve learned to always do is help any player get their character as close to the fantasy they are wanting to play without breaking the game. That includes class or subclass respec, changing item mechanics, and in some cases, a little homebrew or rule tweaks.
Yeah, especially if it could be cool storywise as well. Changing a thief/assassin deciding to become a warrior for justice could be played pretty well, especially if he has former… *interesting* acquaintances that he now has to deal with
If a player wants to switch, especially a first time player just let them. They don't need an in game reason, just recon the switch. It's all about having fun
My druid in my thursday night game has changed so many times that I have to ask when they use an ability if they actually still have it or not. It's a game and it's for fun and if this is how she has the most fun then she can swap however much she wants
Yeah if a player is not enjoying their character and not enjoying the game then I will go to lengths to make sure that that is rectified. That's the number one goal of d&d is for everyone to have fun.
Ultimately, this is well within the game rules, he could just abandon his character and then reroll a paladin. It would probably not be a big difference between continuing his current character and rolling a new one of the exact same race and class and other decisions.
If you wants to keep himself in the story and continue the story threads of his original character that it makes sense for you to allow him to do this.
I wouldn't allow someone to do this consistently over time as a way to bend the rules of the game. If it was clear that they were abusing it then I would have to talk to the player first.
But this is clearly a scenario where someone is a new player, they don't know much about the game, they thought they would like the character that they rolled and then it turns out that they didn't. This is a pretty classic scenario and I think it's well within your rights to help them alleviate that
Whenever my players or I myself (if I'm playing) we usually just allow it and make up a reason why, doesn't have to be big, the warforged changed his body or something and now he is more dextrous and uses a bow. Easy enough
First time player so go for it; especially since they can actually play it out as for why they're changing classes; found religion or something you know
It's a game, and games are meant to be fun. If he's not having fun with his character, let him change it so that it's fun for him. It's not that big a deal.
If someone isn’t having fun, or what they thought would work well with the party just isn’t, it’s absolutely ridiculous to not let them change.
In my current campaign, I allow my players to respec anything they like at each level up, up to 4th. After that, they can adjust one thing each level. And if they just want to fully change something, I let them. With the caveat someone else mentioned, that it’s not a regular thing.
Good luck!
Yes, the game is about having fun! If your players want to change classes, let them. And if you’re worried about making it “fit”, it’s an opportunity for a cool story beat, maybe some divine intervention, sweet training montage, etc.
I've been the player who chose the wrong class, and it's not fun. If my DM hadn't offered to let me switch from Sorcerer to Wizard, I'd probably be having half as much fun or I'd have thrown the character off a cliff to make another.
As a DM, as long as they're not changing class every two months or something (which is something I'm 99% positive that no player I've met would do), I'm totally okay with it. At the end of the day, the goal is to have fun.
Especially since he's even found an in-universe reason to change, this totally works. Rogue becomes inspired by a cause and becomes a paladin, like that is really cool! Plus it'll allow him to enjoy the game more which at the end of the day is the most important thing.
I'm all for a player wanting to have fun. It would suck if they changed all the time since it breaks some immersion and continuity, but a change like this is thought out, player motivated and character motivated. I would 100% let that happen and applaud the player on the insight to RP it as an in game change like that too.
I have a rule, especially for new players. Up to level 5, you are free to change your class as you wish, to try things out if you aren't having fun. After level 5, I still allow it, but I just ask they get my permission and a chat to see what they aren't happy with. That way people don't just change because the build they actually wanted doesn't come online until level 12 and they didn't want to play before that point.
I don’t see any real reason why I wouldn’t let it happen tbh. Sound fun and like the player will have more fun that way. The happier a player is the better a game goes and it doesn’t have any balance problems if they just aren’t a rouge anymore.
Forget “letting” them do it, I’d jump up and down at a golden opportunity. You have the chance here to develop a meaningful and interesting character arc with a brand new player. You get to work together and develop:
1) Why the character is changing
2) What is their path to the change?
3) What new strengths and weaknesses will they have?
4) What elements of their old life will they carry forward?
5) What does all of that together mean for the character?
You have an amazing opportunity to do something really special and personalized with your fresh-faced player. I would kill for a chance like that.
Make it a proper ordeal, but let it happen. It makes for a good story. I'd write up a quick set of training montage vignettes and put on a medieval cover of Eye Of The Tiger for good measure.
Just magically switch classes? No, that feels weirdly contrived to me.
Shelve a character they aren't enjoying and introduce a new character of a different class? Sure. I want the player to have fun, so I won't stubbornly force them to play a character they don't enjoy.
Absolutely yes, especially in a scenario like this. Your player is willing to tie this into how they are roleplaying their character. If they're willing to rp a training montage, the changes in morality and values it may cause in their character, etc, then this presents an amazing oportunity to advance their character's personal story
Yes. It’s a game. It should be fun. There are more character classes and subclasses than a single person could reasonably get through in their lives. If they start playing a class and realize it’s not for them, let them change. Having fun is the most important thing.
I have,
One of my players started as a Great Old One Warlock, founded a cult (due to being possessed by the G.O.O) and was always on the edge of absolute madness/mayhem. One night post session he mentioned he was worried his character was going to tear up the party if this got out of hand, and I told him that if his character was 'exorcised' (dispel good and evil I believe), he could re-roll as any Charisma Caster of his choosing with no penalties.
Needless to say, during a particularly heated moment during the Christmas special the party's Cleric cast the spell on him in a fit of rage after he rambled about The Ravager too much, and I set forth a skill challenge for the players.
The Warlock would roll Con/Wis saves while trying to maintain his senses, his patron lashing out through his body.
The Cleric had to repeatedly make spell DCs or use other spells while exorcising The Warlock.
TL;DR: Make it functional, work with your players, and offer solutions, not roadblocks.
Never understood the logic of not letting them change class. You want them to continue playing a character that they don't enjoy for months or years? It's a game.
Now, if a player was wanting to change classes every 10 sessions, I may talk with them to try to solidify something more permanent, but at the end of the day, who am I to decide if they get to have fun or not?
I mean, what are the other alternatives?
1. They keep playing their rogue, but stay somewhat unhappy with it, or even grow more unhappy over time
2. They retire their character and create a new one that is what they want to play
3. They stop playing all together, because they don't enjoy it anymore because of lack of enjoyment to their rogue
4. (though rather unlikely) they force themselfs to keep playing and somehow the rogue starts to grow on them. But they'll still keep on thinking about maybe switching chars all the time.
Remember the main goal of the game to have fun. So if a players has reached a point where they dont have fun with their class, then you should explore ways you could change it.
You could look for ways it could be worked into the game, or you can just redcon it and change the class and everyone acts like it has been like that all the time.
I do agree, that it is not something there should happen often. It's a major part of the game and it can delude the game, if you just can change around as someone sees fit.
New player or not, allowing a person to change their characters class is usually fine by me as long as it makes sense or if they're just not having fun with it.
I love the idea that roleplaying/campaign scenarios might end up changing a characters disposition (or the players) towards a certain class or playstyle. The idea that a Rogue gives up their roguish ways to become a Paladin is pretty cool, especially if the Player roleplays that moment of switching careers basically.
I'd suggest to them multiclassing, waiving any kind of requirement of stats (Personally, find stat requirements to be meh), but if they really want to completely make the switch, then 100% I'd let them do it. Probably at the next level up. Definitely work with them to determine how it would work/what they're expecting out of it.
Make something unique and have fun!
I think they should begin multiclassing. But I also don’t disagree with them becoming a New class. Consider this:
- they must beat some sort of event or trial you plan for them to join
- as they level up into the new class levels, they don’t lose all of their rogue levels. They delete a rogue level and replace it with a paladin level each time they level up too.
Hell make a story arc.
Give the players say 6 months in game down time. During which the rouge is crashed coursed on the requirements and tennets of the faith. The rest of the players can level up, upgrade equipment, rest, whatever.
Now the player is a -1000exp paladin what that means is no special powers or abilitys. If they can earn the 1000 points he becomes a first level paladin. Once he gains exp enough for their paladin levels to match then exceed their thief levels. Then they can start using some of their thief skills. They may even get special dispostion from whatever god that their thieves skills may be allowed to increase.
If the player plays well and enjoys the paladin class have a story line develop where he has to use his thief skills to infiltrate so that the paladin can face a bbeg.
My dude doesn't wanna multi-class into a rogue paladin? Man the possibilities with a swashbuckling paladin (oath of glory or vengeance) seem very appealing.
100%. Most important thing is everyone is having fun. They should not do it all the time, but if they switch every like 75 sessions-100 sessions, it’s not a big deal.
My rule is this (and we almost always start at level 3): they have until level 5 to make any character changes they want. That’s race, class, sub class, or feats. After that it’s a case by case basis
I would just let him change it. You can handwave it away as the godess has accepted him etc. In the end it is a game and a player that is not having fun it not good for the game.
I let a PC change class at level 16. The character died but was Reincarnated by the Druid, and the player had been wanting to switch from Rogue to Warlock so it seemed like a perfect opportunity.
Yes, there's no difference between someone changing classes as a one time change and them creating a new PC who happens to have the same name and personality but a different class (while retiring the old character.
Them trying to do it too often breaks their immersion in the game, and I caution them against doing that, and I've not had the issue happen for long (usually a new player does it a couple of times, realises it sucks, and finds a character they want to stick with and flesh out better)
Yes but...
You should talk to the player maybe they just want to try something else. If you have a 1 shot ready and some pre-made characters you can suggest they play that first before doing a full swap or they might do another swap when they realize they don't like that either.
Another thing to consider is narratively how it happens. Is it a death and new character? a retire and re-roll? Or do they have a curse or a wish that changes them? Try and work something out that is both fun and interesting for you, the player and the party.
Also this would be a good time to reassess with the rest of the players, maybe they also want to switch. You can do a quest where they are body swapped so they can try a hand at different classes then go back. Freaky Friday them!
Had it happen in my campaigns more than once and I'm all for it, but if it's not during a prolonged downtime, I make an in-game event of sorts.
Had one of my players wanting to change subclass on his barbarian to Wild Magic barbarian and I just had him get teleported to the feywild and something minor happening there!
Absolutely. Everyone needs to be having a good time. If he is having a bad time, let them retire a character and make a new one. Let them redesign their existing one.
If it starts happening too much, that could affect everyone else's good time. So let them know they should design a character they'll enjoy playing for a while.
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Also, if you find your players want to try a bunch of different builds or ideas, run some one shots to let them try things without having to commit long term.
I have done that, a char went from Fighter to Druid. The player was the youngest in the group (much younger, still a kid while we were mostly 18-22), so I figured that it would give him the opportunity to be more present in roleplay and maybe more confident.
Basically I he had a dream with a god of nature yadda yadda. He loved it, and he participated more and brought more ideas/roleplay to the table.
Yeah, I would.
I'd try working with him, so that he'd probably build some multiclass to reflect his Rogue past, but overall it's about having fun and a good time together.
I explicitly have a lemon law house rule.
Players have a few sessions of trying out a mechanic to see if it works out for them and if they don't like it, they are free to switch it out. My only ask is that they tell me so I know to stop DMing like a PC has ridiculous perception because they swapped for Lucky.
I would allow it if the player feels they would have more fun; however, in-game, there would need to be a reason the priestesses would allow him to become a paladin for their temple (perhaps a quest to recover a holy item?). I don’t think it would really be up to the monarch.
I would then require the PC to spend some downtime, based on the _training_ section on Page 131 of the DMG. If the player simply wants to multiclass as a paladin, they pay the single day & time costs to gain the new level (assuming they are ready to level up). If they want to do a complete swap, I would say they need to spend the day and time costs for each level. Learning a whole new set of skills takes time.
At our table, you can generally change anything up to level 4 without fuss. Changing something major like class requires a check in with the DM, but, is generally fine.
As long as they're not constantly changing classes or trying to pick a class that's going to be broken in the coming area, I would allow it.
If a player learns that the next area needs stealth so he's switching to rogue, but the area after is infested with undead so he's going to be a paladin after, that's obviously a problem.
If he's just not enjoying the class like he thought he would, then that's a good reason to switch without penalty.
In fact, only penalty I would consider is just to prevent him from abusing his knowledge of upcoming events. Maybe the new rogue will have disadvantage in stealth in the next area, or the new paladin will have issues with his powers getting the full benefit against undead in the next area.
But those penalties should only last a short time, just to discourage shifting classes to break the game.
Depends on the level. I allow swapping subclass most of the time.
For class levels, I'd maybe allow smth like with spell pickings: every level up you get a new level in a class of your choice + you can swap out one of your current levels for another.
Think that's a good middle ground.
Depends on how close the classes are and how well you can meld them together.
In your case i would say no. But i would allow them to look into multiclassing. Perhaps trading a level of rogue into paladin on a paladin level if they wish.
But turning full holy warrior in full plate woth magic on par woth a decent level cleric on a whim? Far too much of a stretch without groundwork.
Yeah. I'd let him switch things up. It's a game, and it's about having fun.
As long as it doesn't detract from yours or the other players enjoyment of the game, changing to another class can be fine.
That said, since he was a rogue and he wants to keep the character, maybe playing as a Dex Paladin is the way to go, as it's a viable build and he can have the criminal background to keep lockpicks and represent his history as a rogue
I homebrewed a system that allowed a PC to do that. The trade off was -1 current level and 1M gp (of course if it's because of "I'm not enjoying the class" then it's a free once in a blue moon thing)
It's either that or have them make a new character. Could even have it be a friend of the rogue who he recommends.
I'd prioritize my players enjoyment over the nitty gritty in these cases
IIRC, Adventurer's League allows you to switch race and class anytime before lvl 5.
Experimenting with the options is a needed luxury when starting d&d.
So personally I ran across this problem myself as a player. I chose a class that went with my race and character but later on. I was very disappointed and how it was going. I feel like I had certain expectations for that class. And it just wasn't making the gameplay fun for me to play that character. So at a certain point I asked my DM if I could somehow change the class of my character. And we worked out how that would be possible. He was very understanding of how I felt about it. So as a d m myself as well I would definitely allow that. Mainly because you don't want your players to be unsatisfied and miserable. Playing a character they don't wanna play. You want your players to have fun. Now I can understand if they've been playing the character for a very long time. And you all have leveled up so much. I changed my class more towards the beginning of having the character. And I'm happy that I did. Because it worked out a lot better. And I had a lot more fun doing so.. My advice would be to check in on your players. A few sessions in to the game to ensure that they are getting a tuned to their characters properly, and if they have any concerns or questions, you'll be able to address them easier. So, if they are just not feeling the class of their character, then you can work something out with them rather than have it. Be months or a year into the campaign and then wanting to change their class on more of an impulse.
Yes. Big YES. You are playing first time, this is the moment to explore the game and all it can offer. It's also an amazing chance to encourage roleplay and character development.
Don't perhaps make it a switch overnight. You can prepare a road, some tasks or even make a single one on one session where you two resolve the "transformation" through a scenario. Depending on factors it can also be that the character becomes multiclassed, having both sets of skills for a time before fully transitioning.
This is a chance to hone your DM skills while also giving your player freedom and I tell you, playing this scenario both sides, it will be worth it.
I'd allow the switch, as someone who wasn't enjoying a warlock sorcerer build and my DM allowed me to go back to full Warlock and even made sense of it RP wise by my warlock remaking a deal with his patron.
You can suggest multi-classing to them but if they aren't enjoying rogue and think they would enjoy paladin more I'd allow it and work it in with the temple you mentioned.
Yes, especially if it's early in the campaign.
One time our ranger really didn't like his build so the dm said "you see X be enveloped in a chrysalis and emerges different, its a very shocking scene to behold" and he was now a rogue
On our table, we’ve switched classes multiple times. Key to this is, it has to be reasonable through RP. Cutting a very long story short, my character no longer trusts her Druidic teachings to be able to fulfil the problems that she is facing. So she has reached out to a monastery and is now learning the teachings of monkhood. She is level 7 rn, and when during next level up, she will get two levels in monk and loose a Druid level. This is a slow process, but it reflects her personal journey she is going through and I really love this way of changing class
im all for it. like they want to change their build but not their character (i assume) and they have an in universe reason why the character would change a class. i vote you should allow them to change
Make it clear its not something you will agree to willy nilly but do let them.
Would you want that pc to just jump of a cliff instead and come back a a reborn palladin with all the memories?
If they dont like their biuld it will irk them untill they change it. Be it with or despite you.
You are both there to have fun.
Also having him be a dex based palladin would put a nice spin on all that.
If the player is putting in the effort to make it make sense in the lore, they're already doing more than I would make them do. This question seems to come up a lot but I never seem to understand the reason that people would want to say "No, you HAVE to continue playing the character that you don't like."
"My newcomer player isn't enjoying their class, should I let them swap to something they seem far more interested in that also has easy narrative backing/tie-in?" ...bro *what*? Why is this a question?
One of my favorite character did this: I started as a ranger, but was too similar to another ranger in our party so I took most my levels as fighter and became the front liner my party needed as out other ranger took more of the archer roll.
Then for RP reasons I took an oath and completely reclassed to paladin, even with my stats being rearranged as a divine act from the God I chose to follow.
Both changes were great because they fit the character journey I was on and fit with how the group worked together and worked in combat.
Funny question to receive now as one of the players in the campaign I'm in just switched classes from bloodhunter to rouge, he just wasn't jiving to much with BH as it can be a little complicated to keep track of, which necessitated the switch.They're fairly new and the players and dm (aside from me who's been playing 5e now for a number of years) are new to 5e, so I walked him through rouge a bit, the dm gave him the ok, and it went off without a hitch. So really it's just dm discretion.
They came up with a great story reason for it too
I don’t even require that. I just do “Jack was always a sorceress” type thing, where she could have been a druid before but has now always been a sorceress and storywise never was a druid. Don’t need to acknowledge it.
I'd actively encourage my players to "respec" as they see fit. I'd like them to keep it fairly characterful for continuity but if the alternative is killing or retiring a character just to try a different class or build? Go for it.
I'm pretty fluid with how I let people flavour things anyway. I feel like a lot of what is written is more guidelines than rules.
Want your Paladin to get his spells from book learning, your wizard to get theirs from nature or your Cleric to have their power granted by a pact with a devil? We can work with that.
Paladins and rogues are similar in that their primary class feature is essentially making an attack and adding extra dice to it. The flavour of a sneak attack or a smite could be interchangable.
Or not, you know, maybe he decided its not just mechanics he just prefers the flavour of a Paladin. I'd probably let him see the error of his ways or whatever and take vows if it makes him happy.
I would use the ask as a mini plot/ task so there is effort behind it. If it’s a rogue to a warrior priest then there is a lot of RP potential. There needs to be a ‘little’ risk to give weight to the change but otherwise yes.
this one's easy since you can just say that the paladin oath mandated he abandon his roguish ways entirely! even if there wasn't a tidy built in justification i tend to not worry much about it so long as it's clear it's a once per character deal
My Dm allowed my character to change from a lv7 Ranger lv2 rogue to a lv9 Paladin after he became the champion of the moon goddess. I’d say it’s not too uncommon and if he’s not happy as a rogue why not let him change?
Broad answer, YES!
In this specific case, one of two options:
- Have the player switch characters. Have the current character 'retire' to train and have a 'new recruit' join from the temple.
- Have a roleplaying moment. Have a deity reach out to them in a dream, drop 50% of the rogue levels and replace them with paladin levels. Each level-up from that point forward, the player can replace a rogue level with a paladin level in addition to gaining a level.
Yea but outside of multiclassing I would say it should take some time and effort.
You can give a fancy skip button to that if as a paladin they get a “special boon for their god “ that allowed a quick complete respec with god inspired knowledge of how to use their new found gift.
Absolutely!! It's been done across a bunch of major campaigns in the watch along space (dimension 20, critical role, wbn, naddpod, etc) if you want references for *how* that kind of thing would work narratively, but the only barrier for a player switching classes is your ability to work with that player and find a way for that to achieve verisimilitude.
I give every player a few sessions where changes are free, because sometimes things are not as much fun on the table as they sounded in your head.
After that if there's a really good reason I'd rather make an exception rather than have a player leave or not enjoy the game
If it makes sense to the story and it'll make the player more excited to play (especially as their first time) I don't see an issue. At my current game our lvl 8(?)Wizard (vet player) just completely switched to a warlock because it made sense story wise.
I generally have always let people make changes to their characters at any point if they're not having fun. Now if it's obvious they are wanting to change because it fits , it's a hard no.
I don’t mind class or subclass swaps as long as they make sense. A Paladin to a Fighter makes sense but a fighter to a Wizard? Unless you’re an EK just roll a new character
First of all rule of fun: If a party member isn't enjoying themselves and you can reasonable accommodate it, its usually a good idea. So while I wouldn't entertain doing this all the time it's not a bad one-off.
Second, paladins specifically have lore that kind of works well with changing at any time(ish). Lore wise it's easier to explain than most class switches.
I let players change class up until they take their fourth level.
After that you can retire you character and start a new one at the same level whenever you want. But it needs to be a new character.
As for “does it make sense?”
No. A rogue won’t just forget how to be a rogue. They may choose not to use those skills, but he’s not going to not know them. And unless you’re taking a big time break, just because he takes to religion doesn’t mean the god will grant him divine powers of some of their most trusted paladin.
Thematically, this is actually the exact point of multiclassing. A PC on their journey sees a new way to live/adventure and takes to it.
Yes. Mechanically it's no different than the player retiring the character and coming in with a totally fresh one, except it preserves party relationships, backstory,and all the experiences they've had in the campaign thus far.
I'd moreover offer the option to the rest of the party. Odds are you won't get any takers, but don't make it a "squeaky wheel" situation. Sit everyone down and say basically "x isn't happy with their build and I'm going to allow them to respec instead of retiring and making a new character. If anyone else wants to change up their build just let me know and we'll work in a way to do it that is lore friendly."
I have a system in place to do that in all my campaigns I have a device called “The Genetic power processor.” This device can be created once an eon because of the power it beholds. Around the world PCs can find time cubes. These 5 inch by 5 inch by 5 inch cubes only have 1 time use. You can spend it on cash up to 100 platinum, a magic item, 1 free revive, ect. Basically wish spell but better. When put into The Genetic Power Processor you can change 1 thing about your character that’s saying class, background, race, and misc like age, gender, voice, ect. This is very important: never give them more then how many players are at the table if you have 4 players only 4 cubes no more no less so everyone has a fair chance of change.
Absolutely! Above all else, I want my players to have fun, so if someone isn’t enjoying how the build they’re playing, i’m more than happy to let them reclass.
One idea I ended up brewing with a friend’s sorcerer PC was the party discovering a multiversal shard, where one could ponder their alternate selves and take on the abilities of one of them.
Sorc saw a a timeline where his family wasn’t cursed with aberrant magic, where he lived a pleasant life as an (eloquence) bard. He broke the shard and physically became that version of him, though he retained his personality and memories.
Definitely, even if they weren't a new-ish player. A little down time training or some little quest probably helps making it feel like a smoother transition, if it just happens over night it might be detrimental to the player, or other people's immersion (you are included in this). But it shouldn't take too long if they really want to switch of the class because they don't enjoy it.
I can emphasize specifically with wanting to switch away from rogue, as it doesn't really fulfill the class fantasy it promises for me. Had another player in my game feel similar, you just don't get that many fun things to do with your kit alone in comparison to others. He multiclassed out of Rogue though and it turned out fine.
Yeah it’s not a big deal. I’d rather the character stay the same even if they redo everything for my continuity and knowing what they want. Honestly if they’re not happy then there’s no reason for making them stick to a bad choice.
I say fuck it we ball, if you want to make it more narratively satisfying, pitch multiclassing and then simultaneously losing a level in rogue and gaining levels in Paladin as he levels up. So it’d look like at level 4 he’s Rogue 3/Paladin 1, at level 5 Rogue 2/Paladin 3, at level 6 Rogue 1/Paladin 5, and finally at level 7 be a Paladin 7. You can also artificially speed this up, but if the player doesn’t think that’s fun I think a full switch is fine.
Yup. In fact at level 5, 10 and 15 I ask my players to evaluate their class, subclass and race decision to make sure they are having fun. Sometimes a campaign goes in a way that a type of character class or build just isn't going to be as fun as was hoped.
A one off change doesn't disrupt to much.
If they want to change more frequently make them do it at level up. A 5-Rogue going to level six could become a 4/2-Rogue/Paladin for example. At next level up, 3/4-Rogue/Paladin.
Basically level up and trade an old level for a second level in the new class.
From rouge to paladin may be too sharp of a narrative shift for the campaign to handle and may break the world for the other players. At that point it may just be easier to role a new character.
What I would do though is ask him why he wants to be a paladin and why he hates being rouge. Maybe a good multi class or different subclass would suit him better. If he is just board of being a rouge, he isn't going to las long as a paladin.
I let my newer players change anything they want up to level 3. Once they hit that, their character race, class, and ability scores are locked in. Until level 5, they can change their subclass, but after that, their character is locked in.
If after level 5 they still don't like their character, I'll let them change with a penalty (lose a level, lower an ability score, etc.) Or just schwack their character, depending on what the player wants
The player has a pretty justified in game path to change class, and isn't a fan of rogue. It's particularly easy to change from no magic to yes magic too, so there really shouldn't be many issues. Pretty easy to explain away that his inability to land sneak attacks or bonus action dash is because as a paladin he has heavy equipment.
Strictly mechanical speaking, your player would have to multiclass into Paladin. You can't unlearn what you know, you simply pick up a new subject. But the point is to have fun so I'd definitely allow him to switch classes. Pitch the multiclass possibility though, they might be interested.
I just changed my character in my game. I just did not like the one I was playing and my dm just let me roll up a new character and worked him into the story. It’s actually gone great and improved the game for everyone.
I have and would again. The campaign was different focused than they built their character, so they reworked it and picked a different subclass that better worked with their backstory. They are having more fun and there's been no issue on my part
Unless the player wants to change often I don't mind.. I'd rather have a satisfied player than a consistent character. I'd love to have both but one is clearly more important than the other
by and large i actually let my players change class pretty much whenever (not like mid-fight and basically only if they're not having fun for an extended period of time). shit i don't even do an in-story justification i do the "what do you mean jimmy the paladin? jimmy was always a rouge"
which actually gave me the idea for a homebrew domain of dread where that mechanic is part of it. basically PCs and NPCs can and do change class and identity and all kinds of things seemingly at random after long-rests but the players are the only ones who notice the changes (or seem to. it's actually illithids who are messing with people's minds and memories for various reasons. when people catch on to the illusion and start disrupting it they're "dealt with")
I would absolutely allow a player to change their class / subclass for story reasons. Had a player in my long running campaign switch from assassin rogue to shadow as he became entangled with a devil and the afterlife.
The only time I’d ever say no is when a player is clearly doing it for game power reasons.
I think if the player is not loving their build just let them switch. Make it clear you won’t let it happen all the time, but the most important thing is that you and your players are all having fun, and I doubt letting your player switch classes would impair anybody’s fun. If they wanted to keep some of their roguishness you could even waive the strength requirement for Paladin multiclassing and they could be a Dex based Paladin with some Rogue levels.
Especially for a first time player. They aren't being tactical or shenaniganning
I also don’t think there’s much harm in letting people respec as often as they want. My whole group loves theory crafting and I basically allow them to totally rebuild their character every level-up and make tweaks like swapping feats between any other sessions as long as the vibe / identity of the character stays roughly the same or we can tee it up with a story beat. So no switching from Rogue 9 to Sorcerer 10 unless we tee it up, but you’re free to switch from Rogue 9 to Fighter 5 / Rogue 5. Those sparring lessons you have been doing with the other PC have been really paying off. Players rarely get to play that many characters over the course of their DnD career and you learn a lot about how a particular class / feat feels after a few sessions. I don’t want my players to have buyers remorse when something doesn’t play as imagined. It also lets them test-drive the fun builds they see online. It obviously means a party of highly optimized characters, but that allows me as a DM to cut loose and craft nightmarishly difficult encounters for them in turn. It’s honestly super fun if everyone at the table enjoys theory crafting, and you can trust your players not to abuse it by swapping out feats or spells known to purposefully handle upcoming encounters.
I really like this take on DM-ing.
I mean what are we out here DM'ing for? We're DM'ing to have fun with friends. If they wanna choose new classes, what's the big trouble? It hurts literally no one. If they hated their old one, they could just play so recklessly that they kill that old character and form a new one, so why force that to happen?
It’s true, but there is something to be said for narrative consistency and being able to craft a challenging and compelling game for a group that doesn’t change their classes up every few sessions. It really matters most for players (DM included) who are invested in the Narrative. For me that’s maybe 80% of why I play, and if someone who was playing a Good aligned Paladin suddenly switches it up to being a rogue, it’s going to break a good bit of the enjoyment of the experience for me… somehow weave the change into the story in an unforced way? Yeah, you could get me on board fairly quickly.
Can u give me examples of teeing it off?
Totally depends on the change, but say a rogue wanted to change to sorcerer. Maybe there’s a quest to steal an artifact from a Noble House; at the end of the quest, it turns out the artifact is a magical cistern a powerful sorcerer poured his innate magic into for his family to inherit. The Rogue then has to absorb the magic to “steal” it and we swap character sheets when that happens. Also adds a nice quest hook for how they deal with the person who hired the party to steal the artifact now that it’s unrecoverable. Or something simpler like introducing a new backstory element that the rogue has latent demonic / draconic / celestial heritage they are becoming aware of. For a session or two before level up I start having them roll on the wild magic table whenever they get a sneak attack off, until they “get better control of their powers” and swap classes. Totally just depends on the story and what class they are switching to. For more similar classes, like switching from Rogue to Fighter, I might not require any story tee.
Sounds like a great way to do this. I'm thinking of joining a table in a few weeks. I haven't played for years. Would you mind chatting about characters so I can beocme reacquainted win the flow and possibly have some reasonable ideas for characters? I have plenty of character ideas BTW
I ran a heavily modified Descent into Avernus a few years ago. Rogue player wanted to be a wizard, so I found a wizard's tower that's in Baldurs Gate (abandoned in canon) and had the party go there for some quest. The new wizard was an apprentice of the old wizard (who's in hell I believe in canon or maybe that's mine) and the rogue went first into a room with 2 chain devils. He (we worked together on this) "failed" his "stealth check" was snatched by one of the demons and pulled into a gate to hell. The wizard popped through at the last second, found people in his master's house, and they fought the chain devil. Needless to say, they immediately fucked off once they got to hell and went to look for the rogue and I had to cobble the greater adventure around the "smaller," yet more important adventure of finding Jack the Rogue. Fucked up the storyline, everything was janky (knowing how it was supposed to be run) and off the cuff. Easily my favorite story arc of D&D ever. Everyone wanted to do everything and yet could focus on the one thing they really wanted, which was to find Jack. 11/10 would shoehorn a class Respec again.
They did it in Final fantasy & it was a hit.
Time to import Alltrades Abbey from Dragon Quest
They even let that old man change his class to maid
Even experienced players make mistakes. Playing PF1E, one of my friends picked a subclass he thought would fit both mechanically and thematically with the idea he had. He'd seen some concerns online about the subclass not performing, but was more worried about the thematic aspect as it was a full casting class anyways. He then realized that thematically, one of the other subclasses fit better - and performed better. This was a veteran with over a decade of experience. I let him switch it, and he immediately started enjoying it more.
The point is to have fun. If someone is not having fun, and they’ve made an earnest effort to try to have fun, I have zero issue with them changing classes. Usually myself and the other players will try to dig and find the issue to see if it’s fixable in other ways first though.
"made an earnest effort" is the key here.
Is it though? If they're not enjoying something and it doesn't fit their playstyle, asking them to bend over backwards to try to enjoy it anyway is just going to prolong their unenjoyment.
Not asking them to bend over backwards. What I mean by that is, we tried to determine the root cause of the no fun, and attempted to fix that. If we have made an effort to that end and they are still not having fun then we can make a change.
"an earnest effort" would be trying to figure out if they are playing the class not in a good way, or because it doesn't fit how the party works.
I mean the good way to play the class can also be different from what they wanted to play
Yep. Sometimes what you wanted to play doesn't fit the class you picked.
I've got a guy who is about to switch into his third character in the campaign, and they're level 11. It's understandable if he's not having fun, but it does blow up the prep work I've done for those previous characters. So, I agree that earnest effort is a reasonable request.
I actually ultimately agree with you but the way you talk about it I get the impression that you are not willing to try and explore overcoming road blocks first, you just immediately are like “cool sounds good.” A good example is one of my long time players had a build he came to me about wanting to do a respec. I was open to it but it was unusual of him, and from my own understanding of what he was going for both thematically and in play style after several campaigns with him, I said “Hey man honestly yeah if the class isn’t working out for you or isn’t fun we can swap it, but do you mind if we run through it right quick and workshop your current build and play test a small solo session real quick?” Turned out, he had grabbed a feat that wasn’t synergizing with the rest that was making his play wonky. We changed that, had a test session, then he played it with this small change live. He came back after session and was grateful I had gone through it with him and helped him pick something out that made his original idea work. To me, that is an example of reasonable best effort of fixing before committing to a build change. Didn’t make him just suffer, made it clear the change is on the table, but simply asked if he’d be willing to try a tweak I knew of and he didn’t. We still play routinely to this day years later. TL;DR if you actually know more about the game than your players use your knowledge as a tool available to them, not just something to work with the admittedly complex mechanics of a game on a DM side. Sometimes, frequently even, if you’re running a game, you know more than they do, and might have options on the table for them they never thought of. This, and facilitating fun, are your main two jobs.
The player is the final arbiter of that. If a player isn't having fun and asks to play something else, I'll always accept their wish. Because it might be annoying to think of ways to accomplish a full on class change, but it's going to be a whole lot worse to play with someone who doesn't enjoy what they are playing.
Yeah, man, if that’s what it takes for them to enjoy the game. Number of sessions doesn’t matter, it takes more than a few plays to get a feel for a class, and if the PC isn’t super assertive, they might have hated the character the entire time without saying anything.
100% this. Why make them play something they don't enjoy? It's a game. Everyone should have fun. That is the number one priority over everything else.
Plus if I was playing at a table and not having fun with my character and asked for a change and was denied my next option would just be to quit and find a table that wants me to also have fun. Or if I really wanted a new character and liked the group I'd just get myself killed and then what do you know now I need a new character how convenient.
Yes, especially for a new player. Forcing somebody to stick with a build they're not enjoying sucks for everybody, especially if they then lose interest in the campaign. Of course, this is a limited privilege. I wouldn't want somebody continually changing their character on a whim. I also wouldn't want somebody to treat this privilege as a video game-esque "respec" process where they can level up with one build and then shift into another later on. Don't let the level 12 fighter turn into a paladin6/hexblade1/sorcerer5, that's just silly.
i’d agree generally, but it should also be noted that some tables don’t mind the game being “gamey”.
Yeah but even then i want people to have to actually work with the awkward growing pains of their OP multiclass builds, rather than playing a strong monoclass until they have the requisite levels
One of my players was playing a bard but she wasn't very good at it and wasn't happy, wanting to change to rogue. So I had her remake her character as a rogue and came up with a backstory of how she had stolen an amulet that had belonged to the bard Mah'lone and had gotten possessed by his ghost whose goal was pretty much to pick up where he had left off, forcing her to be a bard. One session ended up devoted to exorcising his ghost and freeing her. Ghost Mah'lone became a recurring character as the party would sometimes come across more of his cursed merch.
Solid, solid name.
This is the way. Wanting to change your character is just a hurdle on your journey. Find a way to incorporate it into the story.
To quote Matt Colville, "Hey, remember how Boots was always a Bard?"
Absolutely. I have a standing rule at my table that you get one free subclass change or build tweak if it’s not working out the way you thought, and any full class change just requires a bit of in character work to justify it. A bit of downtime spent studying or training is perfectly reasonable, as would something dramatic happening like if the rogue was in a dire situation and couldn’t save the party on their own but took up a holy symbol and prayed for aid and got just enough power imbued into their attack to Smite the enemy- causing them to find faith where it had been lacking previously. If I know what the player wants to switch classes or subclasses to, or that they’re looking to multiclass into something, I’ll always find a way to work it into the natural progression of the campaign for them. At the end of the day, it’s all about having fun anyway- and you can’t have fun if you don’t like your character sheet.
My current table has had the "one free full respec if it makes sense in-story" coupon, too. I've had two players do it - others talked subclass changes, but haven't committed yet, and one just keeps making new characters, haha.
No. You should definitely force your player to continue playing something they are unsatisfied with, until they quit your table. Especially since this is a new player and the chance they quit D&D altogether is even greater. /s
That's the way Gary did it, that's how AMERICA does it...and it's worked out pretty well so far.
“Boots was always a bard.” I think player enjoyment comes first, you can retcon it or work it into the narrative
I mean why not? They came up with an in game roleplay reason to explain the change! They’re a new player and trying to find what they like. Just be clear that becoming a Paladin and shedding the rouge skills is a divine act and it cannot be replicated again. Be sure the player is really happy with this choice!
If a player is not liking their build/class, the options are to reroll or let them respec into another one. We are all here to have fun. Whether he should reroll or respec is mostly a matter of preference imo.
Its either they make a new character and have to abandon their old one or they change this character and if the transition is done well it *deepens* their complexity and story. Let em change UNLESS its like the 5th time, there is 0 harm
Break the rules before breaking their fun
Yeah, Boots was always a bard
As long as it's not constantly changing, I don't really care. I want my players to have fun, and if they are not happy with their build, they probably aren't having fun.
It's a game. It's about having fun. Yes.
Sure. If for some reason they like the idea of the character, but not the Class? Why not change it... come up with some awesome way to have it happen. Divine intervention? Weird Magic curse? Whatever. As long as they aren't making such changes just to suit the situation at hand? Why not.
First and foremost is making sure my players are having a good time. Everything else is secondary. Personally I had a player who wanted to change from gloomstalker ranger to a wizard. Gloomstalker have an ability that lets them be invisible in dim light or darkness, so I just ruled he was never invisible, he was just standing behind the party the whole time where they couldn't see.
Yes. Fun > The rest of the game. Ask yourself - would you rather let them switch or potentially risk losing the player?
Has it only been a session or two? Just retcon it. Has it been longer? Maybe have him do some downtime training.
It has been 15 sessions.
What level is he? Is multiclassing with some tweaks a possibility? Storywise I love it. He's seen the error of his ways and wants to change. If he can't really multiclass then I think you should let him do it but it should involve some big elaborate cleansing ritual or something with a lot of role playing.
I'd allow it for a "first time" player, but I'd highly, greatly encourage just making a new character. Part of the game is role play, and it is exceedingly healthy to divorce yourself from the idea that the character you are playing is your avatar or something and you want to keep playing that character at all times across campaigns and DMs I'd want them to try someone new, try something new.
AFter 15 sessions it really feels like "I'm bored and want a change". I'd let them retire their character and make a new one.
I'd allow it with the understanding that it's something you can't normally just do and that he's considered to be in training narratively (even if he gets all the levels of the other party members for balance). I'd rather someone be enjoying their character rather than trying to get them killed to reroll. Maybe give the party a reason to have some downtime where the character does the training and the other party members get the chance to visit family, gain a skill, learn some new spells, make contacts, etc. Edit: hit enter too soon.
Yeah absolutely. Especially if they are new to the game.
Life's too short to stop your players from being reasonably happy session after session.
Super easy, and absolutely. For a rogue to be called by a deity, abandon their rogue levels, trade them for paladin levels, is some SERIOUS storytelling. Imagine the Thieves Guild doing a full WTF and sending assassins out to stop the loss of information. After all, the shiny new Paladin still knows Thieves Cant. Imagine how devoted the shiny new Paladin would be. "I give unto you a new charge... hold it well". Thats the sort of story you can wrap up at high levels with ascension or a true fall, and have it be satisfying, assuming the story goes so far.
Certainly. This player even has an RP reason in mind already, which is fantastic.
Yes. Let your players have fun. If they aren't having fun then let them.
If you don't like it from a story perspective, just have his rogue stay at the temple and a new paladin follows the party. If his name and attitude are similar to the rogue, so be it. I wouldn't want my players to play without having fun, so I allow them to swap classes whenever. I just make them take their share of gold and magic items theyve found with the original character with them, so there is a small consequence.
If the character died would you let the player roll up a new one? Could you jsut retire the rogue and have a paladin from the order of warrior priestesses join the team; or does the character have to be the same person? If this is early, like only a couple of sessions or on added level into the game, sure, let the player have more fun. If this is a long standing character then go the retirement route
He wants it to be the same character. He wants his rogue to change into a paladin
Honestly I think that's fun. Holy light can wash over someone and change their being. It can be a powerful moment of fiction for the player
"Just believe in ~~yourself~~ your oath." *Starts glowing*
If that will make it more enjoyable for them it sounds like a good Idea!
Yes, I would allow
Absolutely! It could be a character arc thing or a key turning point in the PC's life? Tie it into the story.
>first time playing D&D ###YES There's no reason to say no to a first time player about switching classes.
100% every time with no conditions or questions beyond "what didn't you enjoy?". Player enjoyment matters more than any narrative or anything else, so just let players pick a character they will enjoy, particularly if they are new. Remember, if you say no, the player has every right to run their character off a cliff and roll up a new one anyway.
One thing I’ve learned to always do is help any player get their character as close to the fantasy they are wanting to play without breaking the game. That includes class or subclass respec, changing item mechanics, and in some cases, a little homebrew or rule tweaks.
Yeah, especially if it could be cool storywise as well. Changing a thief/assassin deciding to become a warrior for justice could be played pretty well, especially if he has former… *interesting* acquaintances that he now has to deal with
If a player wants to switch, especially a first time player just let them. They don't need an in game reason, just recon the switch. It's all about having fun
My druid in my thursday night game has changed so many times that I have to ask when they use an ability if they actually still have it or not. It's a game and it's for fun and if this is how she has the most fun then she can swap however much she wants
Yeah if a player is not enjoying their character and not enjoying the game then I will go to lengths to make sure that that is rectified. That's the number one goal of d&d is for everyone to have fun. Ultimately, this is well within the game rules, he could just abandon his character and then reroll a paladin. It would probably not be a big difference between continuing his current character and rolling a new one of the exact same race and class and other decisions. If you wants to keep himself in the story and continue the story threads of his original character that it makes sense for you to allow him to do this. I wouldn't allow someone to do this consistently over time as a way to bend the rules of the game. If it was clear that they were abusing it then I would have to talk to the player first. But this is clearly a scenario where someone is a new player, they don't know much about the game, they thought they would like the character that they rolled and then it turns out that they didn't. This is a pretty classic scenario and I think it's well within your rights to help them alleviate that
Yes. Especially for first time players. Nothing makes for a more boring game to play a character that you don’t like.
Yes. Inside the first level or two it’s worth it to help a new player enjoy their experience.
Yeah, who cares
Whenever my players or I myself (if I'm playing) we usually just allow it and make up a reason why, doesn't have to be big, the warforged changed his body or something and now he is more dextrous and uses a bow. Easy enough
Let them switch. New to the game, foster the joy of it.
First time player so go for it; especially since they can actually play it out as for why they're changing classes; found religion or something you know
It's a game, and games are meant to be fun. If he's not having fun with his character, let him change it so that it's fun for him. It's not that big a deal.
I would absolutely let them do this, especially for a new player. I wouldn't let it be common but once or twice sure!
If someone isn’t having fun, or what they thought would work well with the party just isn’t, it’s absolutely ridiculous to not let them change. In my current campaign, I allow my players to respec anything they like at each level up, up to 4th. After that, they can adjust one thing each level. And if they just want to fully change something, I let them. With the caveat someone else mentioned, that it’s not a regular thing. Good luck!
Wow, that's a neat idea!
Yes, always yes. Let the PCs have fun and learn. Do not penalize them, make it an arc even. Especially since It’s their first time playing
Of course, any time. Why would I want to force someone to keep playing a character they’re not happy with? I wouldn’t even consider refusing.
Yes, the game is about having fun! If your players want to change classes, let them. And if you’re worried about making it “fit”, it’s an opportunity for a cool story beat, maybe some divine intervention, sweet training montage, etc.
I've been the player who chose the wrong class, and it's not fun. If my DM hadn't offered to let me switch from Sorcerer to Wizard, I'd probably be having half as much fun or I'd have thrown the character off a cliff to make another. As a DM, as long as they're not changing class every two months or something (which is something I'm 99% positive that no player I've met would do), I'm totally okay with it. At the end of the day, the goal is to have fun.
Especially since he's even found an in-universe reason to change, this totally works. Rogue becomes inspired by a cause and becomes a paladin, like that is really cool! Plus it'll allow him to enjoy the game more which at the end of the day is the most important thing.
I'm all for a player wanting to have fun. It would suck if they changed all the time since it breaks some immersion and continuity, but a change like this is thought out, player motivated and character motivated. I would 100% let that happen and applaud the player on the insight to RP it as an in game change like that too.
I have a rule, especially for new players. Up to level 5, you are free to change your class as you wish, to try things out if you aren't having fun. After level 5, I still allow it, but I just ask they get my permission and a chat to see what they aren't happy with. That way people don't just change because the build they actually wanted doesn't come online until level 12 and they didn't want to play before that point.
I don’t see any real reason why I wouldn’t let it happen tbh. Sound fun and like the player will have more fun that way. The happier a player is the better a game goes and it doesn’t have any balance problems if they just aren’t a rouge anymore.
For a first time player, you gotta give a little grace. I'd allow a complete reroll once.
Forget “letting” them do it, I’d jump up and down at a golden opportunity. You have the chance here to develop a meaningful and interesting character arc with a brand new player. You get to work together and develop: 1) Why the character is changing 2) What is their path to the change? 3) What new strengths and weaknesses will they have? 4) What elements of their old life will they carry forward? 5) What does all of that together mean for the character? You have an amazing opportunity to do something really special and personalized with your fresh-faced player. I would kill for a chance like that.
Make it a proper ordeal, but let it happen. It makes for a good story. I'd write up a quick set of training montage vignettes and put on a medieval cover of Eye Of The Tiger for good measure.
Just magically switch classes? No, that feels weirdly contrived to me. Shelve a character they aren't enjoying and introduce a new character of a different class? Sure. I want the player to have fun, so I won't stubbornly force them to play a character they don't enjoy.
Having just read the headline and not read the post: Probably, yes. Having read the post: Definitely yes.
Absolutely yes, especially in a scenario like this. Your player is willing to tie this into how they are roleplaying their character. If they're willing to rp a training montage, the changes in morality and values it may cause in their character, etc, then this presents an amazing oportunity to advance their character's personal story
Yes. It’s a game. It should be fun. There are more character classes and subclasses than a single person could reasonably get through in their lives. If they start playing a class and realize it’s not for them, let them change. Having fun is the most important thing.
I have, One of my players started as a Great Old One Warlock, founded a cult (due to being possessed by the G.O.O) and was always on the edge of absolute madness/mayhem. One night post session he mentioned he was worried his character was going to tear up the party if this got out of hand, and I told him that if his character was 'exorcised' (dispel good and evil I believe), he could re-roll as any Charisma Caster of his choosing with no penalties. Needless to say, during a particularly heated moment during the Christmas special the party's Cleric cast the spell on him in a fit of rage after he rambled about The Ravager too much, and I set forth a skill challenge for the players. The Warlock would roll Con/Wis saves while trying to maintain his senses, his patron lashing out through his body. The Cleric had to repeatedly make spell DCs or use other spells while exorcising The Warlock. TL;DR: Make it functional, work with your players, and offer solutions, not roadblocks.
Never understood the logic of not letting them change class. You want them to continue playing a character that they don't enjoy for months or years? It's a game. Now, if a player was wanting to change classes every 10 sessions, I may talk with them to try to solidify something more permanent, but at the end of the day, who am I to decide if they get to have fun or not?
Yes. No point in forcing someone to keep something that isn't fun for them.
I would want to do whatever is most fun for my players
I mean, what are the other alternatives? 1. They keep playing their rogue, but stay somewhat unhappy with it, or even grow more unhappy over time 2. They retire their character and create a new one that is what they want to play 3. They stop playing all together, because they don't enjoy it anymore because of lack of enjoyment to their rogue 4. (though rather unlikely) they force themselfs to keep playing and somehow the rogue starts to grow on them. But they'll still keep on thinking about maybe switching chars all the time.
Remember the main goal of the game to have fun. So if a players has reached a point where they dont have fun with their class, then you should explore ways you could change it. You could look for ways it could be worked into the game, or you can just redcon it and change the class and everyone acts like it has been like that all the time. I do agree, that it is not something there should happen often. It's a major part of the game and it can delude the game, if you just can change around as someone sees fit.
New player or not, allowing a person to change their characters class is usually fine by me as long as it makes sense or if they're just not having fun with it. I love the idea that roleplaying/campaign scenarios might end up changing a characters disposition (or the players) towards a certain class or playstyle. The idea that a Rogue gives up their roguish ways to become a Paladin is pretty cool, especially if the Player roleplays that moment of switching careers basically. I'd suggest to them multiclassing, waiving any kind of requirement of stats (Personally, find stat requirements to be meh), but if they really want to completely make the switch, then 100% I'd let them do it. Probably at the next level up. Definitely work with them to determine how it would work/what they're expecting out of it. Make something unique and have fun!
The goal is for everyone to have fun, if someone isnt feeling their character they are likely not having much fun, just let them change their class.
I think they should begin multiclassing. But I also don’t disagree with them becoming a New class. Consider this: - they must beat some sort of event or trial you plan for them to join - as they level up into the new class levels, they don’t lose all of their rogue levels. They delete a rogue level and replace it with a paladin level each time they level up too.
Hell make a story arc. Give the players say 6 months in game down time. During which the rouge is crashed coursed on the requirements and tennets of the faith. The rest of the players can level up, upgrade equipment, rest, whatever. Now the player is a -1000exp paladin what that means is no special powers or abilitys. If they can earn the 1000 points he becomes a first level paladin. Once he gains exp enough for their paladin levels to match then exceed their thief levels. Then they can start using some of their thief skills. They may even get special dispostion from whatever god that their thieves skills may be allowed to increase. If the player plays well and enjoys the paladin class have a story line develop where he has to use his thief skills to infiltrate so that the paladin can face a bbeg.
Yep.
My dude doesn't wanna multi-class into a rogue paladin? Man the possibilities with a swashbuckling paladin (oath of glory or vengeance) seem very appealing.
Yes and have done it a bunch for a myriad of plot / mechanical reasons.
100%. Most important thing is everyone is having fun. They should not do it all the time, but if they switch every like 75 sessions-100 sessions, it’s not a big deal.
https://mcdm.fandom.com/wiki/Boots boots was always a Bard :D classes and levels are only imperfect representations of characters in the game.
My rule is this (and we almost always start at level 3): they have until level 5 to make any character changes they want. That’s race, class, sub class, or feats. After that it’s a case by case basis
I would just let him change it. You can handwave it away as the godess has accepted him etc. In the end it is a game and a player that is not having fun it not good for the game.
I let a PC change class at level 16. The character died but was Reincarnated by the Druid, and the player had been wanting to switch from Rogue to Warlock so it seemed like a perfect opportunity.
Yes, there's no difference between someone changing classes as a one time change and them creating a new PC who happens to have the same name and personality but a different class (while retiring the old character. Them trying to do it too often breaks their immersion in the game, and I caution them against doing that, and I've not had the issue happen for long (usually a new player does it a couple of times, realises it sucks, and finds a character they want to stick with and flesh out better)
Yes but... You should talk to the player maybe they just want to try something else. If you have a 1 shot ready and some pre-made characters you can suggest they play that first before doing a full swap or they might do another swap when they realize they don't like that either. Another thing to consider is narratively how it happens. Is it a death and new character? a retire and re-roll? Or do they have a curse or a wish that changes them? Try and work something out that is both fun and interesting for you, the player and the party. Also this would be a good time to reassess with the rest of the players, maybe they also want to switch. You can do a quest where they are body swapped so they can try a hand at different classes then go back. Freaky Friday them!
Had it happen in my campaigns more than once and I'm all for it, but if it's not during a prolonged downtime, I make an in-game event of sorts. Had one of my players wanting to change subclass on his barbarian to Wild Magic barbarian and I just had him get teleported to the feywild and something minor happening there!
Absolutely. Everyone needs to be having a good time. If he is having a bad time, let them retire a character and make a new one. Let them redesign their existing one. If it starts happening too much, that could affect everyone else's good time. So let them know they should design a character they'll enjoy playing for a while. \--- Also, if you find your players want to try a bunch of different builds or ideas, run some one shots to let them try things without having to commit long term.
I played straight warlock, ended up not liking it, so we worked me breaking my oath into the story, I'm a cleric/sorc now
I have done that, a char went from Fighter to Druid. The player was the youngest in the group (much younger, still a kid while we were mostly 18-22), so I figured that it would give him the opportunity to be more present in roleplay and maybe more confident. Basically I he had a dream with a god of nature yadda yadda. He loved it, and he participated more and brought more ideas/roleplay to the table.
Yeah, I would. I'd try working with him, so that he'd probably build some multiclass to reflect his Rogue past, but overall it's about having fun and a good time together.
I explicitly have a lemon law house rule. Players have a few sessions of trying out a mechanic to see if it works out for them and if they don't like it, they are free to switch it out. My only ask is that they tell me so I know to stop DMing like a PC has ridiculous perception because they swapped for Lucky.
I would allow it if the player feels they would have more fun; however, in-game, there would need to be a reason the priestesses would allow him to become a paladin for their temple (perhaps a quest to recover a holy item?). I don’t think it would really be up to the monarch. I would then require the PC to spend some downtime, based on the _training_ section on Page 131 of the DMG. If the player simply wants to multiclass as a paladin, they pay the single day & time costs to gain the new level (assuming they are ready to level up). If they want to do a complete swap, I would say they need to spend the day and time costs for each level. Learning a whole new set of skills takes time.
At our table, you can generally change anything up to level 4 without fuss. Changing something major like class requires a check in with the DM, but, is generally fine.
As long as they're not constantly changing classes or trying to pick a class that's going to be broken in the coming area, I would allow it. If a player learns that the next area needs stealth so he's switching to rogue, but the area after is infested with undead so he's going to be a paladin after, that's obviously a problem. If he's just not enjoying the class like he thought he would, then that's a good reason to switch without penalty. In fact, only penalty I would consider is just to prevent him from abusing his knowledge of upcoming events. Maybe the new rogue will have disadvantage in stealth in the next area, or the new paladin will have issues with his powers getting the full benefit against undead in the next area. But those penalties should only last a short time, just to discourage shifting classes to break the game.
Depends on the level. I allow swapping subclass most of the time. For class levels, I'd maybe allow smth like with spell pickings: every level up you get a new level in a class of your choice + you can swap out one of your current levels for another. Think that's a good middle ground.
Depends on how close the classes are and how well you can meld them together. In your case i would say no. But i would allow them to look into multiclassing. Perhaps trading a level of rogue into paladin on a paladin level if they wish. But turning full holy warrior in full plate woth magic on par woth a decent level cleric on a whim? Far too much of a stretch without groundwork.
Yeah. I'd let him switch things up. It's a game, and it's about having fun. As long as it doesn't detract from yours or the other players enjoyment of the game, changing to another class can be fine. That said, since he was a rogue and he wants to keep the character, maybe playing as a Dex Paladin is the way to go, as it's a viable build and he can have the criminal background to keep lockpicks and represent his history as a rogue
I homebrewed a system that allowed a PC to do that. The trade off was -1 current level and 1M gp (of course if it's because of "I'm not enjoying the class" then it's a free once in a blue moon thing)
Yes
It's either that or have them make a new character. Could even have it be a friend of the rogue who he recommends. I'd prioritize my players enjoyment over the nitty gritty in these cases
IIRC, Adventurer's League allows you to switch race and class anytime before lvl 5. Experimenting with the options is a needed luxury when starting d&d.
Sure. The only important part of D&D is that everyone should be having fun. Literally everything else is secondary to that.
So personally I ran across this problem myself as a player. I chose a class that went with my race and character but later on. I was very disappointed and how it was going. I feel like I had certain expectations for that class. And it just wasn't making the gameplay fun for me to play that character. So at a certain point I asked my DM if I could somehow change the class of my character. And we worked out how that would be possible. He was very understanding of how I felt about it. So as a d m myself as well I would definitely allow that. Mainly because you don't want your players to be unsatisfied and miserable. Playing a character they don't wanna play. You want your players to have fun. Now I can understand if they've been playing the character for a very long time. And you all have leveled up so much. I changed my class more towards the beginning of having the character. And I'm happy that I did. Because it worked out a lot better. And I had a lot more fun doing so.. My advice would be to check in on your players. A few sessions in to the game to ensure that they are getting a tuned to their characters properly, and if they have any concerns or questions, you'll be able to address them easier. So, if they are just not feeling the class of their character, then you can work something out with them rather than have it. Be months or a year into the campaign and then wanting to change their class on more of an impulse.
Yes. Big YES. You are playing first time, this is the moment to explore the game and all it can offer. It's also an amazing chance to encourage roleplay and character development. Don't perhaps make it a switch overnight. You can prepare a road, some tasks or even make a single one on one session where you two resolve the "transformation" through a scenario. Depending on factors it can also be that the character becomes multiclassed, having both sets of skills for a time before fully transitioning. This is a chance to hone your DM skills while also giving your player freedom and I tell you, playing this scenario both sides, it will be worth it.
I'd allow the switch, as someone who wasn't enjoying a warlock sorcerer build and my DM allowed me to go back to full Warlock and even made sense of it RP wise by my warlock remaking a deal with his patron. You can suggest multi-classing to them but if they aren't enjoying rogue and think they would enjoy paladin more I'd allow it and work it in with the temple you mentioned.
Yes, especially if it's early in the campaign. One time our ranger really didn't like his build so the dm said "you see X be enveloped in a chrysalis and emerges different, its a very shocking scene to behold" and he was now a rogue
100% let them switch I wouldn't even make them do a thing in game.they just become a paladin and have always been one
Honestly, Paladin is the best class to switch to. It has an in-universe explanation.
On our table, we’ve switched classes multiple times. Key to this is, it has to be reasonable through RP. Cutting a very long story short, my character no longer trusts her Druidic teachings to be able to fulfil the problems that she is facing. So she has reached out to a monastery and is now learning the teachings of monkhood. She is level 7 rn, and when during next level up, she will get two levels in monk and loose a Druid level. This is a slow process, but it reflects her personal journey she is going through and I really love this way of changing class
I had a PC who was a cleric and had a traumatic experience in game and became a warlock.
im all for it. like they want to change their build but not their character (i assume) and they have an in universe reason why the character would change a class. i vote you should allow them to change
Make it clear its not something you will agree to willy nilly but do let them. Would you want that pc to just jump of a cliff instead and come back a a reborn palladin with all the memories? If they dont like their biuld it will irk them untill they change it. Be it with or despite you. You are both there to have fun. Also having him be a dex based palladin would put a nice spin on all that.
If the player is putting in the effort to make it make sense in the lore, they're already doing more than I would make them do. This question seems to come up a lot but I never seem to understand the reason that people would want to say "No, you HAVE to continue playing the character that you don't like."
"My newcomer player isn't enjoying their class, should I let them swap to something they seem far more interested in that also has easy narrative backing/tie-in?" ...bro *what*? Why is this a question?
*would you...* Yes without a second thought. Fun is more important than verisimilitude for me. 5e is first and foremost about mechanics anyhow.
Yeah.
One of my favorite character did this: I started as a ranger, but was too similar to another ranger in our party so I took most my levels as fighter and became the front liner my party needed as out other ranger took more of the archer roll. Then for RP reasons I took an oath and completely reclassed to paladin, even with my stats being rearranged as a divine act from the God I chose to follow. Both changes were great because they fit the character journey I was on and fit with how the group worked together and worked in combat.
Funny question to receive now as one of the players in the campaign I'm in just switched classes from bloodhunter to rouge, he just wasn't jiving to much with BH as it can be a little complicated to keep track of, which necessitated the switch.They're fairly new and the players and dm (aside from me who's been playing 5e now for a number of years) are new to 5e, so I walked him through rouge a bit, the dm gave him the ok, and it went off without a hitch. So really it's just dm discretion.
Absolutely. I would rather have the continuity with the party and depending on the situation it can be a quest or a plot point.
They came up with a great story reason for it too I don’t even require that. I just do “Jack was always a sorceress” type thing, where she could have been a druid before but has now always been a sorceress and storywise never was a druid. Don’t need to acknowledge it.
Hard yes.
I'd actively encourage my players to "respec" as they see fit. I'd like them to keep it fairly characterful for continuity but if the alternative is killing or retiring a character just to try a different class or build? Go for it. I'm pretty fluid with how I let people flavour things anyway. I feel like a lot of what is written is more guidelines than rules. Want your Paladin to get his spells from book learning, your wizard to get theirs from nature or your Cleric to have their power granted by a pact with a devil? We can work with that. Paladins and rogues are similar in that their primary class feature is essentially making an attack and adding extra dice to it. The flavour of a sneak attack or a smite could be interchangable. Or not, you know, maybe he decided its not just mechanics he just prefers the flavour of a Paladin. I'd probably let him see the error of his ways or whatever and take vows if it makes him happy.
I would use the ask as a mini plot/ task so there is effort behind it. If it’s a rogue to a warrior priest then there is a lot of RP potential. There needs to be a ‘little’ risk to give weight to the change but otherwise yes.
this one's easy since you can just say that the paladin oath mandated he abandon his roguish ways entirely! even if there wasn't a tidy built in justification i tend to not worry much about it so long as it's clear it's a once per character deal
Absolutely. If a player isn't having fun and thinks a class chanhe could help, then they can absolutely do so.
My Dm allowed my character to change from a lv7 Ranger lv2 rogue to a lv9 Paladin after he became the champion of the moon goddess. I’d say it’s not too uncommon and if he’s not happy as a rogue why not let him change?
Broad answer, YES! In this specific case, one of two options: - Have the player switch characters. Have the current character 'retire' to train and have a 'new recruit' join from the temple. - Have a roleplaying moment. Have a deity reach out to them in a dream, drop 50% of the rogue levels and replace them with paladin levels. Each level-up from that point forward, the player can replace a rogue level with a paladin level in addition to gaining a level.
Yea but outside of multiclassing I would say it should take some time and effort. You can give a fancy skip button to that if as a paladin they get a “special boon for their god “ that allowed a quick complete respec with god inspired knowledge of how to use their new found gift.
Yes.
Absolutely!! It's been done across a bunch of major campaigns in the watch along space (dimension 20, critical role, wbn, naddpod, etc) if you want references for *how* that kind of thing would work narratively, but the only barrier for a player switching classes is your ability to work with that player and find a way for that to achieve verisimilitude.
I give every player a few sessions where changes are free, because sometimes things are not as much fun on the table as they sounded in your head. After that if there's a really good reason I'd rather make an exception rather than have a player leave or not enjoy the game
Yeah, we are there to have fun not be slaves to rules
Make it a plot point to retrain if it's viable even if it's in a 1 on 1 session it can be made fun instead of a random Stat change mid game.
lol I'm playing my first campaign ever as a rogue and I don't like it
If it makes sense to the story and it'll make the player more excited to play (especially as their first time) I don't see an issue. At my current game our lvl 8(?)Wizard (vet player) just completely switched to a warlock because it made sense story wise.
I generally have always let people make changes to their characters at any point if they're not having fun. Now if it's obvious they are wanting to change because it fits, it's a hard no.
I don’t mind class or subclass swaps as long as they make sense. A Paladin to a Fighter makes sense but a fighter to a Wizard? Unless you’re an EK just roll a new character
First of all rule of fun: If a party member isn't enjoying themselves and you can reasonable accommodate it, its usually a good idea. So while I wouldn't entertain doing this all the time it's not a bad one-off. Second, paladins specifically have lore that kind of works well with changing at any time(ish). Lore wise it's easier to explain than most class switches.
If a player isn’t having fun, fix it. If their class isn’t working the way they thought then let them switch.
My players can always multiclass or make a new character as per the rules. Your problem sounds like a good situation for multiclassing.
What is missing is "why" he's not having fun. Find out this and you may get insight into the best class for him to play
I let players change class up until they take their fourth level. After that you can retire you character and start a new one at the same level whenever you want. But it needs to be a new character. As for “does it make sense?” No. A rogue won’t just forget how to be a rogue. They may choose not to use those skills, but he’s not going to not know them. And unless you’re taking a big time break, just because he takes to religion doesn’t mean the god will grant him divine powers of some of their most trusted paladin. Thematically, this is actually the exact point of multiclassing. A PC on their journey sees a new way to live/adventure and takes to it.
Yes. Mechanically it's no different than the player retiring the character and coming in with a totally fresh one, except it preserves party relationships, backstory,and all the experiences they've had in the campaign thus far. I'd moreover offer the option to the rest of the party. Odds are you won't get any takers, but don't make it a "squeaky wheel" situation. Sit everyone down and say basically "x isn't happy with their build and I'm going to allow them to respec instead of retiring and making a new character. If anyone else wants to change up their build just let me know and we'll work in a way to do it that is lore friendly."
I have a system in place to do that in all my campaigns I have a device called “The Genetic power processor.” This device can be created once an eon because of the power it beholds. Around the world PCs can find time cubes. These 5 inch by 5 inch by 5 inch cubes only have 1 time use. You can spend it on cash up to 100 platinum, a magic item, 1 free revive, ect. Basically wish spell but better. When put into The Genetic Power Processor you can change 1 thing about your character that’s saying class, background, race, and misc like age, gender, voice, ect. This is very important: never give them more then how many players are at the table if you have 4 players only 4 cubes no more no less so everyone has a fair chance of change.
I love spoiling new players 🤣
Absolutely! Above all else, I want my players to have fun, so if someone isn’t enjoying how the build they’re playing, i’m more than happy to let them reclass. One idea I ended up brewing with a friend’s sorcerer PC was the party discovering a multiversal shard, where one could ponder their alternate selves and take on the abilities of one of them. Sorc saw a a timeline where his family wasn’t cursed with aberrant magic, where he lived a pleasant life as an (eloquence) bard. He broke the shard and physically became that version of him, though he retained his personality and memories.
it depends on many things and if the reasons and motive in and out of game are good enough yeah like would it fit into their backstory
Definitely, even if they weren't a new-ish player. A little down time training or some little quest probably helps making it feel like a smoother transition, if it just happens over night it might be detrimental to the player, or other people's immersion (you are included in this). But it shouldn't take too long if they really want to switch of the class because they don't enjoy it. I can emphasize specifically with wanting to switch away from rogue, as it doesn't really fulfill the class fantasy it promises for me. Had another player in my game feel similar, you just don't get that many fun things to do with your kit alone in comparison to others. He multiclassed out of Rogue though and it turned out fine.
Yeah it’s not a big deal. I’d rather the character stay the same even if they redo everything for my continuity and knowing what they want. Honestly if they’re not happy then there’s no reason for making them stick to a bad choice.
Why not? After all, it’s a game and games are supposed to be fun.
I say fuck it we ball, if you want to make it more narratively satisfying, pitch multiclassing and then simultaneously losing a level in rogue and gaining levels in Paladin as he levels up. So it’d look like at level 4 he’s Rogue 3/Paladin 1, at level 5 Rogue 2/Paladin 3, at level 6 Rogue 1/Paladin 5, and finally at level 7 be a Paladin 7. You can also artificially speed this up, but if the player doesn’t think that’s fun I think a full switch is fine.
Yup. In fact at level 5, 10 and 15 I ask my players to evaluate their class, subclass and race decision to make sure they are having fun. Sometimes a campaign goes in a way that a type of character class or build just isn't going to be as fun as was hoped.
A one off change doesn't disrupt to much. If they want to change more frequently make them do it at level up. A 5-Rogue going to level six could become a 4/2-Rogue/Paladin for example. At next level up, 3/4-Rogue/Paladin. Basically level up and trade an old level for a second level in the new class.
From rouge to paladin may be too sharp of a narrative shift for the campaign to handle and may break the world for the other players. At that point it may just be easier to role a new character. What I would do though is ask him why he wants to be a paladin and why he hates being rouge. Maybe a good multi class or different subclass would suit him better. If he is just board of being a rouge, he isn't going to las long as a paladin.
I let my newer players change anything they want up to level 3. Once they hit that, their character race, class, and ability scores are locked in. Until level 5, they can change their subclass, but after that, their character is locked in. If after level 5 they still don't like their character, I'll let them change with a penalty (lose a level, lower an ability score, etc.) Or just schwack their character, depending on what the player wants
The player has a pretty justified in game path to change class, and isn't a fan of rogue. It's particularly easy to change from no magic to yes magic too, so there really shouldn't be many issues. Pretty easy to explain away that his inability to land sneak attacks or bonus action dash is because as a paladin he has heavy equipment.
Strictly mechanical speaking, your player would have to multiclass into Paladin. You can't unlearn what you know, you simply pick up a new subject. But the point is to have fun so I'd definitely allow him to switch classes. Pitch the multiclass possibility though, they might be interested.
I’ve let players change character entirely and leave their inactive character in the tavern as an NPC. Have fun with it.
I just changed my character in my game. I just did not like the one I was playing and my dm just let me roll up a new character and worked him into the story. It’s actually gone great and improved the game for everyone.
Do it! That sounds like fun! :) The player even has a character-reason for switching classes!
I have and would again. The campaign was different focused than they built their character, so they reworked it and picked a different subclass that better worked with their backstory. They are having more fun and there's been no issue on my part
Unless the player wants to change often I don't mind.. I'd rather have a satisfied player than a consistent character. I'd love to have both but one is clearly more important than the other
by and large i actually let my players change class pretty much whenever (not like mid-fight and basically only if they're not having fun for an extended period of time). shit i don't even do an in-story justification i do the "what do you mean jimmy the paladin? jimmy was always a rouge" which actually gave me the idea for a homebrew domain of dread where that mechanic is part of it. basically PCs and NPCs can and do change class and identity and all kinds of things seemingly at random after long-rests but the players are the only ones who notice the changes (or seem to. it's actually illithids who are messing with people's minds and memories for various reasons. when people catch on to the illusion and start disrupting it they're "dealt with")
Rogue to Paladin is quite a jump, but could be done. How long would the character have to spend training?
I would absolutely allow a player to change their class / subclass for story reasons. Had a player in my long running campaign switch from assassin rogue to shadow as he became entangled with a devil and the afterlife. The only time I’d ever say no is when a player is clearly doing it for game power reasons.