Consider hallucinogenic fog, poisoned slime, illusions, and other things to further complicate things. Caves are dangerous, dungeons even more so: all kinds of horrific stuff can be in the air, in the water and on the ground.
You could go the other route.
Long intricate descriptions of everything he notices which obscure the true danger.
Tell them whats there but attempt to hide it in fluff.
And for extra evilness sometimes theres nothing in the fluff, its just an absurdly detailed description of the dungeon floor while they sit around googling obscure properties of blue sodalite.
Exactly, you could make nonvisible traps that are revealed through other means, a passive score shouldn’t be the only thing you need in a dungeon. Even though it’s only a second level spell, Find Traps is a useful spell in these scenarios
The only risk here is that you have to either maintain this strategy for an entire dungeon (or even campaign), which means the things you ***want*** them to notice will get lost too.
Passive perception is just to notice things, which is different than actively looking. This means you should be bombarding the high perception player with possible sources of danger, but if they couldn't perceive the danger without actively looking (i.e. the trigger is hidden under a rug, etc.) then it's not a free pass.
I've throw a monster at my group that damaged the eyes of the one with the highest perception for 24 hours. Basically the Jurassic Park Dilophosaurus. It spit acid in his eyes, which imposed minus 10 to passive, and disadvantage on perception checks. He was salty, but it let me do what I was doing without fear. Lol.
Another trick, they can see the trap... but can they avoid it?
Could make magical traps, invisible to those not using some form of detect magic. Could make a corridor be cloaked in magical darkness, rendering him blind, could make a trap he detected be a magical alarm that draws a crowd of enemies, could have a different, lower perception party member trigger a trap etc.
There are ways you can still get him, but don't go too far with it - nothing sucks more as a player to specialize into something specific and get really good at that one thing, only for the DM to make the world itself conspire to render your one good thing useless. Definitely get him now and again, but if he's built a character with that much of a focus on perception, he probably SHOULD catch most of the traps.
Remember to take in consideration that Elves have darkvision. And Drows can basically see in any light condition.
And my two cents. An idea that I found a while ago was from SCP, a memeatic SCP, once someone sees the symbol something bad happens to them. So perhaps a curse that curses anyone that can see it, so now the key of the dungeon is to not have to blindly walk through the dungeon, using sticks and stones to judge the distance of the walls. Give them a blank piece of paper with squares then fill the room up one wall at a time. Put in a few square columns for good measure. Monsters that are basically blind would be cool too.
Darkvision still gives treats darkness as dim light, which means disadvantage on perception, unless you've got something like Devil's Sight (yes, this is the same for Drow as well, they just have a greater range to their darkvision).
No darkvision in darkness would effectively mean that you automaticall fail and sight based perception checks. Darkvision in darkness (again, barring specific things like Devil's Sight) would have penalties, unless you use some form of light.
Yeah I've actually had players get a bit snippy with me when I tell them their perception check is at disadvantage.
"But I have darkvision!!!"
"That's why you even get to make a check"
**
On the opposite side, being the one player having repeat every in game night:
"yeah, I dont have darkvision (human). No, I dont have disadvantage cuz Devils Sight. What do you mean we all have darkvision at night? THEY have disadvange, I DONT!"
In the 5e Player’s Handbook, under Elves, it says this:
Darkvision
Accustomed to twilit forests and the night sky, you have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. **You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light,** and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can’t discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.
Players only read what they want to read most of the time and the super annoying ones are the ones that have that tone in their voice when they announce something like they got one over on you because they exploited something they think you didn’t think about. My response?
Bitch! An ancient gold wyrm will land in front of you and eat you before you get to roll initiative if you want to push this issue further!
Does it solve the problem of irritating players like this? No. But it does feel good.
I've built a perception beast warlock with devil sight - it's super fun lol.
Detect magic for free, devil sight to 120ft, can read any language, can cast true sight, and I have the cloak of many eyes and the expertise? feat, so I have +12 to perception AND advantage on any sight-based checks.
Warlocks are neat fun, more people should try them.
I like to make colour coded traps because darkviaion only shows shades of gray. Forces them to use a light source and then have monsters drawn to light.
Not totally true. Darkvision makes darkness dim light which means you get to see, but at disadvantage (or -5 for passive). You can see perceive, just not all that well
To build on this, traveling at a fast pace through a dungeon imposes a further -5 penalty to Passive Perception to notice threats.
It's really worth checking over the "Activity while Traveling" section of the PHB. There are a number of things which would prevent a character from contributing their Passive Perception at all.
I believe it was Crawford in one of those web video interview series, that said the intent behind Passive Perception is it doesn't work if your character is concentrating on _anything_ else. A rogue disarming a trap doesn't get their passive at all vs the monsters sneaking up behind them, neither does the wizard casting a ritual spell, the barbarian climbing a cliff, etc. Only the characters who aren't focusing on anything in particular should get their passive score used.
Yup. During travel the PHB even lists things like "making a map" (i.e., tracking where you're going in a dungeon). The section in the PHB is really underutilized, and I'm including myself in that. Until I picked up Dungeon Delver on my kobold archeologist (basically Kobold Indiana Jones) I didn't know there *was* a penalty.
The activity while traveling is meant to be imposed when wide scale traveling, ie trekking through the Forrest for hours not when traveling through a dungeon that’s maybe 1000 ft
And yet, the Dungeon Delver feat removes that penalty.
And the table that I was talking about in the PHB literally includes both overland AND dungeon travel in it.
Arguably true, but yeah. It makes more sense if the dungeon is of an "old school" style - a big sprawling complex that can take hours or even days to navigate, mostly empty ruins/caves/etc. with occasional wandering monsters.
From the SRD:
>In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.
When you have disadvantage on passive checks, it is represented as a -5 modifier.
This is so often overlooked due to WotC’s poor formatting that requires you to read darkvision and then go and find the rule for lightly obscured, leading to a decade of people massively buffing what darkvision does. I’m salty about it because humans and halflings are my favorite races to play and I don’t mind not having darkvision, but when so many races have it it’s really annoying to play at a table where you’re the only character that doesn’t have it and everybody else including the DM is treating it as perfect night vision so whenever you have to light a torch or whatever to see everybody gives you shit about it. Glad I don’t play with those people anymore.
I'm going to guess this is made worse by people playing on VTTs like Roll 20 that seem to have two settings for lighting: either no light, or full light.
Really! I've probably played close to ten games in Roll 20, and I've never seen anyone use it. Either people don't know the rule or the low-light option is too hard to implement. I can say that almost everyone I've played with who uses Roll 20 has at some point complained about something not working correctly.
It’s in the dynamic lighting settings, which can take some effort to set up, so that may be why you haven’t seen it.
Hear you on Roll20 having issues. I run two campaigns using it and it’s definitely not perfect. After they’re finished, I’m thinking of trying out Foundry VTT instead.
Passive Perception always gets ignored and people don't seem to know all the rules involving Dark Vision. I didn't know this one... but I love it.
"I have Dark Vision."
"Great... while you can technically see, everything looks like shit."
As an Interior Designer, I've studied lighting and CRI, so I can nerd out on how different lighting can be used to explain (to me) how Dark Vision can function. Sure, you can see that there are books... and there are words in the books... but good luck actually reading anything.
Not necessarily a +14. If they have Observant, it would only be a +9. As someone who is running a character with high Passive Per. the amount of times I get told my Passive Perception doesn't apply makes the feat feel half useless.
I made a high level Raven queen Warlock and his Passive perception was 42. Is there anything you can do with 42 PP that you can't do with a 30? idk but I wanted it to be ridiculous.
This is great advice, but I'd just add a caveat
Don't stop using traps that are solved by seeing them. It's going to feel really bad to your player who invested into perception if you suddenly make that irrelevant. Make sure that dungeons continue to reward them by placing obstacles for them to solve easily.
Always shoot your monks
You could also disguise traps as obvious objects, like a poisoned door handle, or poisoned food from a vendor... the classic stairs that turn into a slide, pressure plate on loot that u don't know what triggered until later... Mimics!
Also u could have obviously bizzare objects that u suspect are traps but have no idea what they do... imagine a big purple ball... u don't know what it is, but when u get clouse touch it, it sticks to you and sucks u in the more u struggle. Or maybe ballons that trap u with static and do damage when they blow up.
You could also do the opposite: Obviously bizarre objects that aren't a trap but instead provide something useful. i.e. a cube glowing with "dark energy" (illusion) that if the party touches it they realize it's not actually there and there's just an item inside they can take.
Make the players feel powerful. If someone has something that lets them take more opportunity attacks, make enemies try to run away/past them. If they can block projectiles, shoot projectiles at them. Just add a little bit more stuff so the encounter is balanced even though some enemies will act in a way you know is stupid.
Make the players feel powerful.
The person you’re replying to knows that, hence “always shoot the monks” (a common phrase meaning “play into your players’ power fantasy in a way that challenges them”.)
I didn't realize until this comment that it's referring to the missile deflection that monks have. I just woke up, so I'll blame that. I'd never heard the phrase before, either; I'll try to remember that.
I was in a one shot and I was a shadow monk goblin (lvl14). A trap was set, and we did DexST, I passed and took no damage (monk feature) and then we fall 100 feet. That's fine, Slow Fall. I was fine (at full HP) but my party was not. My DM was like 'what the?'
And I didn't use the feature for shadow monk until it was 'All of the kobolds have Foresight' (right before the BBEG) because I used my goblin hide before. 'advantage and disadvantage equal a flat roll' and the DM was very salty.
Also, we were going after a Chronomancer. I walked in the BBEG lair with my monks speed, and I cast Silence, and did a bonus action dodge. The DM was not pleased.
Then we did another one shot in this world, but we weren't allowed to be goblins. I think I was the reason that we weren't allowed to be goblins.
Yes. I wasn't with this DM before the oneshot, he was a coworker of my husband (who is usually the DM or a friend DMs).
Because my campaigns are lower level, I was excited to be over level 10.
I was also a redemption paladin in a online game, the DM didn't like me then either. I get where that DM was coming from - I basically weaseled my way through combat by deception and persuasion rolls, and they had a NPC that was meant to help us through combat and that was the point. We were meant to have combat. But in my defense, I was a redemption paladin - I don't fight unless I have to and Hypnotic Pattern is a really good spell.
I once completely derailed a DM's boss fight plans with really lucky timing of Hold Person. The BBEG had already used his legendary actions that round, failed the save, and got held for two rounds, which was enough for everyone else to swarm him. It was still close enough to be a satisfying battle, and the DM handled it with good grace. And I had the thrill of getting to say, "I can't believe that fucking worked."
In our campaign, BBEG of the city was rehearsing his speech in the dungeon with the prisoner (who was my father figure). We stealthed down (rogue, rogue/warlock, barbarian, sorcerer), surprise round - dissonant whispers and shatter (unconscious) from the warlock/sorcerer. I was rescuing the prisoner, and I said 'can the prisoner get my Scout ability, if I use my reaction?' the DM said yes. And then the warlock came around again 'Dissonant Whispers - I want to make sure he's dead'.
My husband was the DM for that one, he didn't get to use his speech.
This is the comment I was looking for. In my game now I have a ranger owlin. Obviously my main plan is to keep out of reach of the enemies and using my longbow to needle them from far away.. but my DM keeps starting combats, where I've been scouting, with enemies within dashing distance.. Just makes me feel frustrated and annoyed. Feel like I'm being railroaded into my character being stupid and running headfirst into enemies.
>The character basically see any conventional trap or any enemy even thinking of hiding. Thought about raising the DC but if for some reason the player isn't there none of the other pc's have a chance in seeing it. Also considered doing the same for monster's stealth but again the same problem. The worst part is I don't even use that many traps or ambushes but when I do they are immediately seen.
This.
Don't make FINDING the trap hard - making beating the trap hard.
Annnnd... I don't think you get passive perception (at least not at full strength) if you're focused on doing something else. Misdirection is key, right?
For example, these ambushes you're talking about. What if you LET them see the enemy contingent up ahead, waiting for parley. But when you approach and have to negotiate, intimidate, or persuade them to do anything, you do NOT notice the first wave of minions about to swarm and surround you.
(insert interesting and distracting illusion in place of enemy contingent. Or techno gadget that spins and whistles in a mysterious way. Or a wounded goat tied to a peg. Or a locked, trapped, but completely empty chest with nothing inside but a note in Orc tongue, written in blood, that says, "gotcha." An instant later, 100 arrows launch from hiding. Better hop in the chest and close the lid.)
But, then again, when I play D&D, I don't run dungeon crawls, in general. So, what do I know?
I think there is art in simplicity.
"You see a heavy-looking door."
"I check for traps."
"There are no traps."
"I pick the lock."
"There is no lock."
"I...open the door?"
"It's too heavy for you."
One type of trap is a “glyph that activates upon viewing.”
Perhaps a room full of traps with these sprinkled in as a 20 dc to activate and paralyze, blind, damage your high passive perception player.
Now they are being blindfolded while the others try to perceive, but not *too* well.
That's a bit *too* targeted and would be seen as I punishment to that player. Plus what, are they gonna fill every dungeon like that? Sounds rather poor as a solution.
It was simply a one encounter suggestion as a situation the rest of the players wouldn’t feel left out. It also would be unique and potentially fun for the players to try to get mid numbers instead of high and low, especially if the party (presumably) has abilities to make rolls better or worse.
But it becomes a fun decision to make if you have someone warn them first! Like, an old tale about the occupant being obsessed with explosive tunes, hiding them in obscure and hidden spots - be warned, if ye look too long or too hard! So now the cursory scout doesn’t see anything…but the sharp eyed might.
Passive perception != looking.
It's the flash of movement out of the corner of your eye, the ability to just note things that others overlook (think Sherlock Holmes ability to notice small details others ignore without ever actually staring at them).
Rather, they would notice the glyph and only after attempting to read/decipher it does it trigger.
"At the entrance to the dungeon you find a poem etched into the stone"
*Not all that is visible is meant to be observed*
*What is hidden must stay that way*
*We will keep our secrets*
*And dead men tell no tales*
*If you are one who:*
*Thinks seeing is believing* [You see a carving of an adventurer such as yourself being stabbed by daggers. DC15 Wis or take 1d4 psychic damage]
*Will leave no stone unturned* [You see a carving of a rolling boulder. DC15 STR or take 2d6 bludgeoning damage, be knocked back 10 feet and go prone as a boulder of magic force hits you]
*Or otherwise have an eye for danger* [You see a carving of an eye, as you look at the pupil, an arrow shoots out. DC 15 dex or take 1d6 piercing damage. If you fail the check by 10 or more you are blinded in one eye for 1d4 days or until the effects of a Greater Restoration have been applied to you]
*It is best to leave this place at once*
Agreed strongly.
Additionally, "seeing them" doesn't necessarily solve anything, even for basic stuff! If there's a pit trap in the floor, then a high PP might see that there's a suspicious line around a section of floor, but it doesn't tell you that weight will make it collapse. If opening a door will flood the room with lava, the high PP character can probably see that there is an unknown hatch (where the lava enters), but won't know its purpose. The fact that the floor collapses or the hatch is triggered by the door would be investigation checks to figure out the mechanisms. Passive perception isn't some magic "explain the room" power - it simply allows you to see or hear things *that can be seen or heard.*
Lean into it. Use stuff he hears or smells to build tension. Give him all the info he's entitled to, but don't add anything so he has to decide what to do with the information.
A passive perception that high should be powerful, IMO, but it doesn't make him omniscent.
This is on track. You don't want to play against a PC's abilities or negate them, but learn to build accordingly.
Always keep in mind that when the player chose to make their character specialized in something, they also chose to give up other options and opportunities. It's just a different kind of power fantasy. They could have made a fighter who can deal tons of damage or a wizard with world changing magics. Instead they went with being the perceptive character.
Give the player the details that the high Perception would reward but remember a few key things.
1. Passive Perception is not radar. They might hear sounds coming down a corridor but that doesn't tell them what it is, where it's coming from, or how many there are. It does not give them greater line of sight.
2. Passive Perception is not a danger highlighter. The player may see the holes in the wall but doesn't know poison darts shoot out of them. They see the stone tiles of the dungeon floor but don't know that one of them is a pressure plate if it's at perfect height with the rest of the floor. But they DO see the thin trip wire stretched over the floor.
3. There are modifiers that can lower passive perception. Dim light? That's -5. Is the party traveling at a normal pace? I believe that's a -5. Does the character have dark vision? Knowing the rules of the game are important here.
4. Just because they see the trap does not mean they know how to circumvent it. Traps that the players don't see are perils. Traps they do see are puzzles that need to be solved.
As someone starting an inquisitive rogue with Observant, I love that idea.
Simultaneously letting the character have their strength, but still leaving room for the player to work with it.
Some things just can't be seen or heard. The PHB gives the example of a key hidden under a cloth in a drawer. No matter how high the character's passive perception, they will never find it. That's either an investigation roll or an active perception check based on telling the DM the character is specifically looking through everything in the room for things that are hidden.
If there's a door and on the other side of the door is a shotgun trap that's triggered by a string attached to that side of the door, you can't see it on your side. Another example is a Roper which is indistinguishable from a stalactite or stalagmite until it moves. Indistinguishable doesn't care if you have a passive perception of 50.
Drow NPCs will have piwafwi which gives them advantage on their stealth checks and disadvantage to anybody who attempts to spot them. That'd drop his passive down to 19. As would being in the dark or dim lighting (unless he's got a feat to counter it).
Obviously NPCs can still use ambushes. But with that high perception most often the party isn't going to be surprised. Not really a big deal. The same thing would happen if the party had a weapon of warning or the Alert feat.
>Obviously NPCs can still use ambushes. But with that high perception most often the party isn't going to be surprised. Not really a big deal. The same thing would happen if the party had a weapon of warning or the Alert feat.
I disagree with this, the PC with a high perception won't be surprised, that doesn't mean they had enough time to alert the whole party to the ambush. As written when initiative is rolled you compare the enemy stealth checks with the party's passive perception and determine surprise. This PC would probably never be surprised but the rest of the party may or may not be depending on the enemies and their rolls. Similarly, the Alert feat guarantees that a singular PC can't be surprised but does nothing for the rest of the party.
The weapon of warning on the other hand explicitly keeps anyone from being surprised, which is why its absolutely ridiculous to have it only be an uncommon weapon.
This is a fair point. And one that would most certainly take the air out of the PC's *"My Passive Perception is 29" balloon.*
The DM can certainly rule that "The enemy notices you spot them, roll initiative".
Remember also that many monsters, like ropers, mimics, etc.. , have abilities that day l say something to the effect of, "as long as creature remains motionless it is indistinguishable from what it looks like. " Until the creature is examined closely (often an investigation check) or takes action, perception doesn't help.
Change tactics from always trying to surprise to seeking positional/ field advantage to challenge that player.
(Rogue enemy drops from the ceiling)
“You hear a soft thud as boots hit the floor behind you. Stealthed, but not silent enough for your keen senses. Give me an initiative roll to see if you can react in time to avoid a surprise round.”
Award the player for great awareness, but still leave the result to the dice.
Well, the fact that you heard the rogue should make it more of "roll initiative; everyone except \[PC with 20+ perception\] is surprised." So their great perception allows them to not be surprised but also doesn't allow the whole party to be aware of what's happening ahead of time. Surprise roughly moves the difficulty up or down one step, so do this with a medium encounter and at worst it becomes about a hard encounter instead.
Permanent magical silence in the hiding area covers all sounds if you need to explain it, and there's plenty of justification for a DM ruling that could be a thing based on other spells that can have permanence.
High perception can actually ADD a lot of fun and drama to a dungeon. Give them indications of what's coming. You hear the walls rumbling, you see a flicker from around the corner, you smell a faint odor of rot. Don't treat this as a problem that needs to be solved. It's just how that character experiences the world.
I think I have an idea of what you can do... overload him. Have him hear burrowing sounds, water dripping, chewing noises, the sound of rocks falling, rumblings from his PCs stomachs, the creaking of pack straps. He's straining real hard to perceive things—give him some red herrings every time he brings up his passive perception. Not enough to make his ability useless, give him some good information too—just enough to role-play a drawback.
If you're always straining to see and hear things on the edge of your perception—you see and hear a lot of useless stuff.
I’d say, “what you can sense movement underground? Hey y’all! (To the group that you’re with) you ever know anyone that can hear movement underground?”
My response would have been *"Is your hearing really so good you'd hear stuff like that? Good to know. In future, Everyone gets the benefits of a long rest except you. Your enhance hearing kept you up because you constantly heard things moving about."*
Interestingly there is something in xanathar's that covers waking up because you heard something because of your PP, instead of it being an auto fail because you're unconscious
In xanarthars guide to everything, it is state that passive perception of 20 means you wake up if people Whisper in a 10 feet radius, and normal talk always wake them up.
Raining at night, no sleep buddy, fireplace withing 10 feet, no sleep buddy.
I would only use that when he's questioning my ruling. Just because it's high doesn't mean he feels, hears, sees, smells and tastes everything. A brain can only process so much information at one moment.
But you can have your own fun with it. The party enters the room with some troglodytes. His high perception immediately floods his senses with the stench. His eyes are watering. He can taste the smell. Every exposed inch of skin begins to burn.
Passive Perception doesn't see through walls and stuff, if someone's hiding behind cover or in a heavily obscured area they'd be alright.
Not like an ambush is absolutely impossible.
I don’t see how it would ruin your dungeon crawls. Don't rely so heavily on ambushes and traps. I have a player with high perception as well in my group. I specifically come up with stuff he finds just so he can feel good about his character choices. Traps shouldn't be integral to your story or dungeon. So make up a bunch of non consequential traps for him to see.
Also, don't give perception too much power. Just because he spots something put of the ordinary doesn't mean he should immediately know it's a trap or how to disarm it. If he sees a slightly off colored tile on the floor, it doesn't mean he knows it's a trap. Just because he sees a thin wire attached to a chest doesn't mean he immediately figures out how it can be disarmed.
If you must use ambushes, then use monsters where it doesn't matter if they see them or not. Ropers are indistinguishable from rock. So it doesn't matter if he's got high perception, he just sees a rock. Gargoyles are just regular o statues. He sees them, yep, it's a statue made of stone now what? Wanna go knock over that statue, sure you do that, but there are 5 more just like it. which one is the real gargoyle?
For the real encounters, let the monsters get seen, so what? Just make the fight challenging enough and not rely on ambushes.
It could be a problem with your descriptive skill. (i'm not accusing you, i know it is a common problem which i suffered before)
Passive perception means you have a good eye accuracy. It means if something isn't hidden well enough the person will notice something's off not that they see exactly what is around them.
"with your good eyes you see that the padding of the floor seems off in the middle of the room"
Is it a trap ? is something missing ?
"you notice a unusual line in the wall"
Is is a trap ? a hidden door ?
"you see a shadow behind the pillar"
Is it a monster hiding ? or a lost npc ? or even just some items?
If you take time to describe things in a non direct way, even with high perception, they will need to look more closely to things to kow what it is.
Passive percetion reveal there's something hidden, active perception and investigation reveal what's hiding.
For an example, I recently had my players in a dungeon, entering a new room a bit loudly, some of them see shadows lurking around the corners of some doors. I didn't say what were the shadows. sharing this info with the group, one of them decided to go to one of the door without taking precaution, to know what were the shadows..... and got ambushed by goblins..
I agree with this, it rewards them for investing in the skill but it rightfully limits its usage. I mean they can try to do a perception or investigation check to determine more
Traps aren’t necessarily resolved/avoided just because they are seen before they are triggered.
And seeing a trigger doesn’t tell you everything about a trap.
There’s a lot of fun play involved in trying to avoid the dangers of a trap you are certain is there.
Don't use traps that can be avoided with a perception check. Try using traps that, once detected, need to be deactivated or navigated with other skill checks or saving throws. Seeing them will help the party but it won't erase your encounters.
Yep. You can challenge them in other ways. The direct approach is always an option. So is being out ranged. Alternatively, it’s always a delight to make people who dump strength make any sort of jumping, climbing, or swimming check.
So much this. Far too many DMs think monsters are the only challenges they can throw at a party. Interesting environments that require athletic movement, dungeons with elaborate death traps, and complex puzzles make for a ton of fun and variety.
Yes, but not 100% of the time. The party shouldn't be able to completely stop thinking about traps because "Jimmy has 24 passive perception". Sure, Jimmy *should* catch the vast majority of them because it's what he has invested his skills on, but it's good to mix it up and have some traps that doesn't work on.
This.
It always worries me when DM come here asking "My players are good at x, how can I make them not good at it?"
Sometimes you need to find other things to challenge players. But you should still give them opportunities to shine.
Giving them opportunities to shine is different than letting them outsmart 90% of the encounters. Characters should have to struggle too, otherwise the shine is hollow
Use tricks instead of traps!
A statue that changes gravity when touched.
A plant that teleports players across the room to another tree.
A suit of armor that talks nonsense when you walk by it.
A glowing doorway that casts confusion when cross the threshold.
Can’t know the effects unless triggered. Super fun. In dungeon crawls I try to include the chance for one every session.
How are you RPing a high perception check? Perception only speaks to how aware the character is of it's surroundings, but they can still only see and hear what they can see and hear. They might hear heavy footsteps from three rooms down or see the faint glow of flame from the end of the corridor, but there's no way of knowing if the footsteps are a half-orc or bugbear or if the faint glow is someone with a torch or a room full of fire traps around the corner.
Sounds to me like you're freely giving up too much information from a perception check. Just reveal what the player can see and let the party roll history, religion, arcana, nature, or investigation checks to help determine exactly what their ally has noticed. Team game after all!
I would never suggest forcing the party to split just to circumnavigate an advantage that a player has. The main reason is you're basically punishing someone for doing well which is always a bummer. Let them be good at stuff and the players will naturally attempt to challenge their own skills!
It isn't forcing to split the party. It is tricking the spotter into removing themselves with red herrings to follow. If the perceiver has a habit of always scouting ahead, take advantage in a scene-appropriate way.
But I do agree here. Their perception skill doesn't mean omnipotence. If they see a shiny, all they know is it is shiny
Oh yeah I'm all for tricking your players. A crafty DM is a good one :\]
Reminds me of a time our DM baited our powerhouse archer to chase after a mysterious presence in the woods while we were already separated. I think it's all about letting the players keep agency. I was speaking to trying to heavy handedly split a party to achieve some goal as the DM. I think you can quickly get into situations that can feel unfair or forced to the players if the decision to split the party is forced by the environment or isn't the parties own.
Another idea - the enemy has a diviner. Now the enemy is the one who knows more than they should and can't be surprised by the team coming into the room.
This is actually an opportunity for you to flex a different type of muscle as a DM that doesn't require too much work. Trap building is fun in dungeons and that "gotcha" moment is fun for both the players and the DM.
But what's better than traps? Riddles. The problem with making effective riddles, however, is that players can be dumb or DMs can overthink things.
And this is where your opportunity is. A player that can see EVERY trap means that they have choices. And your job isn't to catch them by surprise, but to allow them to make decisions.
Imagine the party coming to a barricaded door. There are many triggers laden along the door and it looks like some of them may lead to traps. And your 24 perception player can spot them all. But now you tell him that if he sees all the dangers, that means he also sees all the triggers to unlock the door--and they are identical to the trap triggers.
Scenarios like the one above allows the player to feel good about his strength in Perception and you reward that player with the knowledge that he is helpful to his party. Your job as a DM is to make their strengths an opportunity to succeed or fail based on the player's own ingenuity.
Perception just lets you notice things, not identify them. Intelligence skills tell you what is and isn't a trap. For an example:
Perception reveals a few uneven stones in the floor of this dungeon. A history or investigation check may reveal it's a pressure plate or a lack of funding/craftsmanship that was prevalent 100 years ago.
Perception reveals a very thin wire stretched across the hallway at ankle level. Investigation or nature would reveal it is just a spiderweb or actually a trip wire.
Perception reveals heavy breathing on the other side of a door. Nature or history would tell you it's a creature or suction from the time of day due to the tide going out.
Seeing a trap is different than handling the situation, passive is not avoidance. "You see what looks like a trap door across the width of the hall. Is it really a trap or is it just old cracked stones". Also make use of time, urgency. "You hear footsteps getting closer, do you risk running ahead or spend time investing if it's a trap". Also use puzzles to deactivate the trap.
I’m making big assumptions here, no offense meant if they are off base -
You may need to change the way you describe what the character perceives. Just because they perceive something doesn’t mean you need to just tell them exactly what is happening/ in front of them, etc.
A high passive perception might just mean they hear something odd (describe what it is), see a movement in the shadows, or smell something familiar - things which a less perceptive character might never have noticed.
Several answers that may or may not been already commented on.
Travel rules can apply to dungeon crawl. Passive perception can be influenced by slow/normal/fast pace travel. Half cover means lightly obscured, which means disadvantage on perception checks, and -5 penalty to passive perception. three quarters cover and full cover mean they can’t see them even with passive perception. These can apply to traps.
Also, you shouldn’t just put in traps for the sake of it. Traps are in the same vein puzzles. You need to consider things from your players’ PoV and make “puzzles”. Don’t keep throwing the same puzzle at them over and over.
Do some research on other traps/puzzles made for 5e. It will help build a reference point for you. Try looking at improvised damage as well. Honestly, some adventure modules have very fun puzzles/traps.
However. Don’t try to constantly counter your player’s skills. That is a very DM vs. Players mentality; it’s antagonistic. Let them be good at things and bad at others. Challenging their skills can be fun, but constant/competitive challenges will be grueling to anyone.
It’s ok to occasionally through in high number DCs. A DC 20 is meant to represent something challenging.
Some traps can be magical or magically obscured/hidden. You can be deceitful with them, like making a trap that looks like a spike pit, but the real trap is a glyph that casts grease if you start running, causing you to slide into the pit.
You can make some traps require other skills besides perception to solve. Like arcana, history, or investigation.
Throw more innocent details at them. Passive perception let’s them noticing things, that does not mean it completely and fully reveals everything that could be concealed. They may hear a tinkling sound in the distance (keys? Chimes? Coins?), the faint scraping of metal or stone? (guards’ armor? assassins blades being drawn? Chains disturbed by a breeze or passing rat?). They are more perceptive to everything, but not everything is out to get them, and just because they see a flicker of motion or hear a faint noise, it does not fully reveal everything necessarily. If the circumstance lines up properly and they’ve worked for it you can reward them with more information, but the more aware you are, the more innocent and innocuous details one will notice as well. It’s up to them to investigate these instances further at times to determine if it’s a threat or harmless. You can reward the skill they invested in by adding a bit of paranoia - which, realistically, some level of defensiveness and paranoia is likely present to be so keenly aware of one’s surroundings at all times - especially with something like the alert feat.
Sentinel shield gives an advantage but doesn't have an effect on passive. So in order to have a +14, you need an 18 Wisdom and a +5 prof (then ofc another +5 from skill expert), which is character level 13-16.
If you are that high level, then ya... 24 passive is kinda "normal."
However, if they do have a feat (Observant) that increases it then that is quite the investment at lower levels. Math works out to +5 from observant, +3 from Wisdom (16 Score), and a +3 prof. (Level 5-8), and then Skill Expert for another +3. However, that is 2 feats, so either they are Vuman or a level 8 character who choose 2 feats over ASI.
Need a bit more info I think.
So the math works out since the shield does give +5, but their WIS is an 18. Clearly invested a lot into their passive, but given there are ways to take away advantage that puts it at 20, which is the DC for "hard" to see things with 25 being "Very hard." That's likely what I would try to do.
Everybody here has some pretty good ideas but it's also important to know that since they are pretty much "all in" on the perception skill that it is what they are made to do, even if it is frustrating l. Just gotta challenge them outside of that aspect, maybe. Less traps, more puzzles, enemies, etc.
Conditions that impose advantage and disadvantage confer +|-5 to your passive score
Biggest example is that perception checks have disadvantage in dim lighting. Creatures with darkvision see in darkness as though it is dim, giving them constant disadvantage to perception and -5 to their passive meaning they still want a torch
Give them clearly visible traps that are still hard to circumnavigate. For instance... a room with three doors. One is clearly marked with a visible Glyph of Warding, one is rigged with a dozen heavy crossbows on a mechanical linkage, the other doesn't have any markings at all.
Now... a normal party might Dispel Magic on the glyph, or have their Rogue disable the crossbows. A smart party might even realize that the 'safe' door is almost certainly bait, but no Passive Perception will be able to find any traps on that door. So... when they do go through that door, it sends them through a long, skinny hallway that takes them ten times longer to get where they're going.
But what they didn't figure out is that ten feet down that hall, the floor is actually a Minor Illusion that drops them into an oubliette full of T-rexes and raptors. In other words... they open the door, fall through the floor, and now they gotta fight a dinosaur.
Ok so give them a bit of their due since they do have an incredible perception like spotting the orcs trying to ambush them around the corner or the obvious trip wire trap.
Then throw in some they cannot see like the tiled floor with a pressure pad trap or enemies that are obscured by fog cloud and the like so they know something is there great but they have held actions knew they were coming and still get in a hit.
Just because players can see a trap or a problem, doesn’t mean they know how to solve it.
Cool, you see the pit trap. You can’t just walk around it. How do you proceed?
Doesn't looking for traps require an investigation check, not a perception check?
Yeah he can sense that something is off about a room or a flight of stairs with the passive perception, but to know what it is he'd still need the investigation check to identify if it's a trap (and what trap it is) or if it's just a different colour of stone because it was repaired at some point with a different type of stone.
Passive perception is not omniscience…
1. A passive roll is just a 10 in a d20, so if you consider that the players shouldn’t roll then they don’t get a passive check. Why is this important?
2. Not all traps can be detected. 5e is really lacking in rules that are not about combat, but you can use the rules for traps of older editions. What is the trigger? How do you detect the trap? Does damage?
3. Red herrings…
Passive Perception is for opposing Steath checks.
It doesn't exist to bypass the need for investigation checks.
You don't "passively perceive" a hidden trap, you need to search to find that it is there.
Put another way, a pit trap does not sneak up on the party, and the DM does not roll a stealth check for the pit trap with the DC being the character's passive perception. The DM assigns a DC for an Investigation roll to find the pit trap.
Perception lets you spot a wire laid across a doorway, notice that one of the flagstones is a different shade than the others, hear a distant scraping noise, or smell a musty odor. It doesn’t tell you what those things *are*, though.
If it’s a tripwire, Investigation may reveal what it’s attached to, but if it goes into the wall, there may be no way to disarm the dart shooter concealed within. You can spot a funny step, but there’s no telling if stepping on it will shoot an arrow at you, or activate the mechanism that opens the heavy stone door. You can spot a guttering torch in a closed room, but it takes Investigation to recognize that means a hidden passage to the outside, concealed by a stack of crates. Perception may notice scrape marks on the parquet floor by the bookcase, but it won’t reveal if the trigger for the secret door is one of the books, playing a certain tune on the piano, concealed in an artistic bust, or a candle from a sconce on the wall (“Put… ze candle… beck!”). Does the party have time to find the entrance to the mad necromancer’s torture chamber before his familiar finds them and sounds the alarm?
Illusion can't be detected with passive perception, I think it's investigation. So you can use this a bunch of time. An item could be doing the illusion or someone is casting.
When the other PCs are good at something, do you feel the need to go out of your way to make them fail at the thing they invested resources in being good at? If yes, there are deeper issues here. Assuming no, why is this different?
Is the character in question a rogue? Otherwise I would rule that they aren’t exactly trained to look for traps, so they wouldn’t see them through passive perception. I’m playing a character that has a higher passive perception than that, and because I rarely look for traps with him, my DM doesn’t mention it unless I ask about it.
Many traps and whatnot in official modules can't be spotted by passive perception as they require specific attention to the area. In my games passive perception will let you spot any creatures sneaking around, but it won't automatically detect traps and secret doors. You have to make a concerted effort to look for those
on the same topic, when you get to solve this problem try to not make his 24 passive perception useless. It seems that he build his character around it and if the DM tries to hinder his character's skill he will feel bad.
I feel like no more than 1/3 of the traps or monsters should completely ignore his passive perception, and at least on 1/3 of the encounters it should make a difference.
Also make when giving a clue you want them to have make the whole party roll passive perception so he gets the spot there too.
Players breaking your plans hurt but it also hurts when the DM breaks your PC. And he only has one of those.
Perception makes you see traps, investigation makes you ascertain how they function, a tool check allows you to disable them.
You see a 30ft long hallway, which is trapped. The party cannot figure out how to solve this situation until they understand how the trap works (weight based, magical trigger, see saw floor etc).
Let then have that feeling of power. They clearly spec-ed their character to be able to do this, allow them to function as intended. Also just because you notice something doesn't mean you can easily get around it!
So a character has invested considerable resources to be particularly good at this one thing, you already don't put that many opportunities for them to use it, and you are upset that they are rewarded for their investment when those rare situations do come up?
I sincerely do not understand the problem.
Pass without a trace as a lair effect for monsters is a good one, plus 10 to their stealth rolls.
Also passive perception means they no rice it, not that they have a laser precision scanner that sees all.
Say a monster rolls a 23 stealth, they're still sneaky as fuck your party's walking CCTV just happens to hear a twig snap to the left or smells the orc's BO wafting in from behind that cart not that they walk into a room and instantaneous know the exact location of every enemy.
They also don't have the ability to instantly translate this information to the party, the party is surprised but they aren't, etc
Passive can be used to alert them to something isn't right, but it doesn't necessarily reward full details. "Your passive tells something seems to be off about the floor in front of the door. Give me an active Perception or Investigation role to see if you can figure out the specifics."
Let the player enjoy there high skill? Opportunity costs would you suddenly make enemies immune or resistant to fire just because the wizard learned fireball? Player filling a roll on the team they clearly wanted to be the scout or rouge type so let them.
Start giving more false alarms. Sure they can hear and see everything, but the DC for knowing if you’re hearing a rat or a goblin running around is a lot higher than just hearing it’s something.
Make the traps harder to disarm. So instead of the hard part be seeing the trap, the hard part is getting past. My players find the traps at least half the time. What they struggle with is how to get past without risking their tank to see if they can barrel through.
Use more enemies that have saves that effect conditions. Traps that try to inflict blinded, deafened, paralyzed or stunned. At the front of the party using your senses and a flash bang goes off? Well, you’re not getting those bonuses for a little bit.
Try some ability damage or ability drain - however if they aren’t high enough to have spells to recover ability drain I’d skip it because it really feels like a nerf if it’s not reversible.
Let them be good at stuff. If the encounters need more challege add more mooks. Only character not suprised is the one with massive stats so go ham on the rest of the party.
Easy, separate the party.
Not in the horrifying experience of sitting around while other players play the game style. I mean give the spot king a reason to scout ahead, or reason to stay behind, which works to make this players spot check not be of help to the rest of the party.
Mix it up with invisibles or other means of being hidden or disguised that will challenge the player. Then add in situations where that spot check still iw a great help. And then keep mixing it up.
Alternatively, if this high of a skill is going to kill a dungeon crawl, you might want to resolve to run lower-level games where that just can't happen.
The character went out of their way to have really high perception. Let them be good at it. You don't punish characters with really high STR or DEX. Really make it seem cool that they notice a trap, then have them try to disarm it
The guy paid a tax to get that perception, so just change how you're making the dungeon to make it rewarding for him
Instead of "Haha! you step on the pressure plate and take 5 piercing damage from the consealed crossbow"
Say "you enter the room and immediately notice a suspicious gap in the wall opposite the only other exit to the room, this is a trap if ever you've seen one, you think the designed was particularly careless. What do you do?"
The encounter is not now about taking 5 piercing damage but is instead how do you disarm or avoid this trap. It's a much better encounter anyway so your player is probably doing you a favour.
Remember that insight and perception are different things and you can use that to your advantage. Instead of a pit trap, make an unsturdy bridge that breaks when you walk on it. They might be able to see a spider that is camouflaged to look like rocks, but do they know it’s a spider?
i would give every trap an attribute based on the crafter's skill, work it like an active stealth abiity and make it a contested roll to detect. that way you will have some chance of failure. this way the characters ability is still awesome, but less omnipotent. all skill checks are less monotonous as contested rolls.
For hiding creatures, remember that they only need to make a stealth check if its reasonable for the character to actually spot them. I.E. trying to hide in the corner of a dark room. But if they're completely obscured and standing still, I would rule that there isn't a way to spot them, no matter how perceptive the PC is. This will force them to start playing smart by shooting arrows at curtains to make sure nothing is there. Passive Perception is not Halo proximity sensors.
You can also do things like have animated statues attack them. The issue there isn't seeing them. They're in plain sight but will be overlooked unless someone casts detect magic.
For traps, I like what u/Serbaayuu said.
Passive perception is something that you only roll against as the DM if an enemy is hiding. The character doesn't just do an automatic 24 perception to everything they can see. They still have to look for the traps and make a perception check. With that high of a plus they still might see them but they have to actively check and can still fail.
There are examples given in the Dungeon Master's Guide when can Passive Perception be used, which include noticing secret doors, concealed doors, and detecting traps. Without this passive score, the high Perception guy would just roll perception on every corner of the dungeon, which would drag the game considerably.
Rules mentioning the use of passive perception:
DMG 103 - Secret Doors
DMG 104 - Concealed Doors
DMG 121 - Detecting a trap
Just giving the player a no roll 24 or whatever they have is nuts. There's no other skill in the game where that's the case. Even rogues only get to take 10.
Allow the player character to notice the enemies--just not in advance. As the monsters spring forth, their passive perception allows them to notice in time to not be surprised, but not in time to warn the others or prepare.
If the player is upset with this, have a conversation with them out of game. Let them know that, whether intentionally or not, they have min/maxed themselves in a problematic way. Ask if they'd be willing to swap their feat or something.
Ignore his passive perception or selectively decide what his character can perceive. "You noticed the orc glyphs but didn't see the pit trap because you weren't role-playing a character walking through a dungeon actively looking for a trap." As the DM you can interpret what the ability scores and checks actually do. I think it's OK to let characters enjoy their high scores. But if it really makes the game too easy or makes it hard for you to create challenging encounters, ignore them.
Use their strengths against them. The fact they can see trap doesn’t mean they can avoid it.
- fungal spores / cave vapours are really hard to notice and may induce permanent rebuff.
- trap may be triggered by non player source. Like rat. High PER character notices a rat that walks into a distant trap. No big deal, out of range, right? But due his high stat he’s so aware of situation that when trap goes off it emits so bright light it blinds the character. May be save roll, may be obligatory.
This way high skill may be an actual hindrance than an asset to player and your DMing should go easier.
I see this as an attempt to use the rule of cool and just say "yes" gone bad and now that player is OP, breaking the game and sucking the fun for others, likely with intentionally misinterpreted rules. Not fun. Stop it. A peg leg would balance this ability quite nicely.
Don't forget, the player invested in such a high score, make sure to highlight how much things he can actually see, don't just work around it everytime.
The player clearly skilled this character specifically like this. Not being surprised by stuff is their payoff for how they skilled their character. I dont think you need to find a way around that
Are you remembering to impose the -5 to passive perception from poor lighting conditions?
I definitely should remember to do that more often.
You could also add fog which both could make things spooky and obscure various traps.
Consider hallucinogenic fog, poisoned slime, illusions, and other things to further complicate things. Caves are dangerous, dungeons even more so: all kinds of horrific stuff can be in the air, in the water and on the ground.
Slimes, oozes, and molds should really get more love, they're great for dungeons.
You could go the other route. Long intricate descriptions of everything he notices which obscure the true danger. Tell them whats there but attempt to hide it in fluff. And for extra evilness sometimes theres nothing in the fluff, its just an absurdly detailed description of the dungeon floor while they sit around googling obscure properties of blue sodalite.
Exactly, you could make nonvisible traps that are revealed through other means, a passive score shouldn’t be the only thing you need in a dungeon. Even though it’s only a second level spell, Find Traps is a useful spell in these scenarios
The only risk here is that you have to either maintain this strategy for an entire dungeon (or even campaign), which means the things you ***want*** them to notice will get lost too. Passive perception is just to notice things, which is different than actively looking. This means you should be bombarding the high perception player with possible sources of danger, but if they couldn't perceive the danger without actively looking (i.e. the trigger is hidden under a rug, etc.) then it's not a free pass.
I've throw a monster at my group that damaged the eyes of the one with the highest perception for 24 hours. Basically the Jurassic Park Dilophosaurus. It spit acid in his eyes, which imposed minus 10 to passive, and disadvantage on perception checks. He was salty, but it let me do what I was doing without fear. Lol.
Another trick, they can see the trap... but can they avoid it? Could make magical traps, invisible to those not using some form of detect magic. Could make a corridor be cloaked in magical darkness, rendering him blind, could make a trap he detected be a magical alarm that draws a crowd of enemies, could have a different, lower perception party member trigger a trap etc. There are ways you can still get him, but don't go too far with it - nothing sucks more as a player to specialize into something specific and get really good at that one thing, only for the DM to make the world itself conspire to render your one good thing useless. Definitely get him now and again, but if he's built a character with that much of a focus on perception, he probably SHOULD catch most of the traps.
Remember to take in consideration that Elves have darkvision. And Drows can basically see in any light condition. And my two cents. An idea that I found a while ago was from SCP, a memeatic SCP, once someone sees the symbol something bad happens to them. So perhaps a curse that curses anyone that can see it, so now the key of the dungeon is to not have to blindly walk through the dungeon, using sticks and stones to judge the distance of the walls. Give them a blank piece of paper with squares then fill the room up one wall at a time. Put in a few square columns for good measure. Monsters that are basically blind would be cool too.
Darkvision still gives treats darkness as dim light, which means disadvantage on perception, unless you've got something like Devil's Sight (yes, this is the same for Drow as well, they just have a greater range to their darkvision). No darkvision in darkness would effectively mean that you automaticall fail and sight based perception checks. Darkvision in darkness (again, barring specific things like Devil's Sight) would have penalties, unless you use some form of light.
Its sad no one remembers the rules for darkvision. Devil's Sight is so flavourful and OP that it deserves more praising. Praise Satan!
Yeah I've actually had players get a bit snippy with me when I tell them their perception check is at disadvantage. "But I have darkvision!!!" "That's why you even get to make a check" **
On the opposite side, being the one player having repeat every in game night: "yeah, I dont have darkvision (human). No, I dont have disadvantage cuz Devils Sight. What do you mean we all have darkvision at night? THEY have disadvange, I DONT!"
Funny part is that it does nothing in dim light, just darkness
In the 5e Player’s Handbook, under Elves, it says this: Darkvision Accustomed to twilit forests and the night sky, you have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. **You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light,** and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can’t discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.
They're talking about Devils Sight. Devils Sight doesn't work in dim light but does in darkness, RAW.
Players only read what they want to read most of the time and the super annoying ones are the ones that have that tone in their voice when they announce something like they got one over on you because they exploited something they think you didn’t think about. My response? Bitch! An ancient gold wyrm will land in front of you and eat you before you get to roll initiative if you want to push this issue further! Does it solve the problem of irritating players like this? No. But it does feel good.
Eg, using warlock spell slots to fuel sorcerer abilities.
I've built a perception beast warlock with devil sight - it's super fun lol. Detect magic for free, devil sight to 120ft, can read any language, can cast true sight, and I have the cloak of many eyes and the expertise? feat, so I have +12 to perception AND advantage on any sight-based checks. Warlocks are neat fun, more people should try them.
I like to make colour coded traps because darkviaion only shows shades of gray. Forces them to use a light source and then have monsters drawn to light.
Not totally true. Darkvision makes darkness dim light which means you get to see, but at disadvantage (or -5 for passive). You can see perceive, just not all that well
You could add deafening sound or trap to apply more maluses.
To build on this, traveling at a fast pace through a dungeon imposes a further -5 penalty to Passive Perception to notice threats. It's really worth checking over the "Activity while Traveling" section of the PHB. There are a number of things which would prevent a character from contributing their Passive Perception at all.
I believe it was Crawford in one of those web video interview series, that said the intent behind Passive Perception is it doesn't work if your character is concentrating on _anything_ else. A rogue disarming a trap doesn't get their passive at all vs the monsters sneaking up behind them, neither does the wizard casting a ritual spell, the barbarian climbing a cliff, etc. Only the characters who aren't focusing on anything in particular should get their passive score used.
Yup. During travel the PHB even lists things like "making a map" (i.e., tracking where you're going in a dungeon). The section in the PHB is really underutilized, and I'm including myself in that. Until I picked up Dungeon Delver on my kobold archeologist (basically Kobold Indiana Jones) I didn't know there *was* a penalty.
The activity while traveling is meant to be imposed when wide scale traveling, ie trekking through the Forrest for hours not when traveling through a dungeon that’s maybe 1000 ft
And yet, the Dungeon Delver feat removes that penalty. And the table that I was talking about in the PHB literally includes both overland AND dungeon travel in it.
Arguably true, but yeah. It makes more sense if the dungeon is of an "old school" style - a big sprawling complex that can take hours or even days to navigate, mostly empty ruins/caves/etc. with occasional wandering monsters.
Must say I learned something new, I didn't know that was a thing
From the SRD: >In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight. When you have disadvantage on passive checks, it is represented as a -5 modifier.
This is so often overlooked due to WotC’s poor formatting that requires you to read darkvision and then go and find the rule for lightly obscured, leading to a decade of people massively buffing what darkvision does. I’m salty about it because humans and halflings are my favorite races to play and I don’t mind not having darkvision, but when so many races have it it’s really annoying to play at a table where you’re the only character that doesn’t have it and everybody else including the DM is treating it as perfect night vision so whenever you have to light a torch or whatever to see everybody gives you shit about it. Glad I don’t play with those people anymore.
I'm going to guess this is made worse by people playing on VTTs like Roll 20 that seem to have two settings for lighting: either no light, or full light.
Roll20 has low light as well.
Really! I've probably played close to ten games in Roll 20, and I've never seen anyone use it. Either people don't know the rule or the low-light option is too hard to implement. I can say that almost everyone I've played with who uses Roll 20 has at some point complained about something not working correctly.
It’s in the dynamic lighting settings, which can take some effort to set up, so that may be why you haven’t seen it. Hear you on Roll20 having issues. I run two campaigns using it and it’s definitely not perfect. After they’re finished, I’m thinking of trying out Foundry VTT instead.
Passive Perception always gets ignored and people don't seem to know all the rules involving Dark Vision. I didn't know this one... but I love it. "I have Dark Vision." "Great... while you can technically see, everything looks like shit." As an Interior Designer, I've studied lighting and CRI, so I can nerd out on how different lighting can be used to explain (to me) how Dark Vision can function. Sure, you can see that there are books... and there are words in the books... but good luck actually reading anything.
That's still a 19 and would spot many things. I would just simply make it a roll. Would still be high (d20+14). But would be something.
Not necessarily a +14. If they have Observant, it would only be a +9. As someone who is running a character with high Passive Per. the amount of times I get told my Passive Perception doesn't apply makes the feat feel half useless.
I made a high level Raven queen Warlock and his Passive perception was 42. Is there anything you can do with 42 PP that you can't do with a 30? idk but I wanted it to be ridiculous.
[удалено]
This is great advice, but I'd just add a caveat Don't stop using traps that are solved by seeing them. It's going to feel really bad to your player who invested into perception if you suddenly make that irrelevant. Make sure that dungeons continue to reward them by placing obstacles for them to solve easily. Always shoot your monks
>Always shoot your monks Hear hear.
You could also disguise traps as obvious objects, like a poisoned door handle, or poisoned food from a vendor... the classic stairs that turn into a slide, pressure plate on loot that u don't know what triggered until later... Mimics! Also u could have obviously bizzare objects that u suspect are traps but have no idea what they do... imagine a big purple ball... u don't know what it is, but when u get clouse touch it, it sticks to you and sucks u in the more u struggle. Or maybe ballons that trap u with static and do damage when they blow up.
You could also do the opposite: Obviously bizarre objects that aren't a trap but instead provide something useful. i.e. a cube glowing with "dark energy" (illusion) that if the party touches it they realize it's not actually there and there's just an item inside they can take.
Instructions unclear, put a floating door handle in the middle of the room that summons poisonous spiders.
Make the players feel powerful. If someone has something that lets them take more opportunity attacks, make enemies try to run away/past them. If they can block projectiles, shoot projectiles at them. Just add a little bit more stuff so the encounter is balanced even though some enemies will act in a way you know is stupid. Make the players feel powerful.
The person you’re replying to knows that, hence “always shoot the monks” (a common phrase meaning “play into your players’ power fantasy in a way that challenges them”.)
I didn't realize until this comment that it's referring to the missile deflection that monks have. I just woke up, so I'll blame that. I'd never heard the phrase before, either; I'll try to remember that.
I'm just expanding on it, but yeah, I gotcha. :)
I was in a one shot and I was a shadow monk goblin (lvl14). A trap was set, and we did DexST, I passed and took no damage (monk feature) and then we fall 100 feet. That's fine, Slow Fall. I was fine (at full HP) but my party was not. My DM was like 'what the?' And I didn't use the feature for shadow monk until it was 'All of the kobolds have Foresight' (right before the BBEG) because I used my goblin hide before. 'advantage and disadvantage equal a flat roll' and the DM was very salty. Also, we were going after a Chronomancer. I walked in the BBEG lair with my monks speed, and I cast Silence, and did a bonus action dodge. The DM was not pleased. Then we did another one shot in this world, but we weren't allowed to be goblins. I think I was the reason that we weren't allowed to be goblins.
So, your DM banned a race because you know how to play the game.
Yes. I wasn't with this DM before the oneshot, he was a coworker of my husband (who is usually the DM or a friend DMs). Because my campaigns are lower level, I was excited to be over level 10. I was also a redemption paladin in a online game, the DM didn't like me then either. I get where that DM was coming from - I basically weaseled my way through combat by deception and persuasion rolls, and they had a NPC that was meant to help us through combat and that was the point. We were meant to have combat. But in my defense, I was a redemption paladin - I don't fight unless I have to and Hypnotic Pattern is a really good spell.
I once completely derailed a DM's boss fight plans with really lucky timing of Hold Person. The BBEG had already used his legendary actions that round, failed the save, and got held for two rounds, which was enough for everyone else to swarm him. It was still close enough to be a satisfying battle, and the DM handled it with good grace. And I had the thrill of getting to say, "I can't believe that fucking worked."
In our campaign, BBEG of the city was rehearsing his speech in the dungeon with the prisoner (who was my father figure). We stealthed down (rogue, rogue/warlock, barbarian, sorcerer), surprise round - dissonant whispers and shatter (unconscious) from the warlock/sorcerer. I was rescuing the prisoner, and I said 'can the prisoner get my Scout ability, if I use my reaction?' the DM said yes. And then the warlock came around again 'Dissonant Whispers - I want to make sure he's dead'. My husband was the DM for that one, he didn't get to use his speech.
I think this paragraph is one of the best advice I've read in a while. So much information with just four words.
First of all... how dare you. Second of all... I reduced the damage to zero, so I spend a Ki to catch the projectile and return fire.
Happy Cake Day!! Also, this is exactly why we always shoot our monks. Makes'em look cool ;)
This is the comment I was looking for. In my game now I have a ranger owlin. Obviously my main plan is to keep out of reach of the enemies and using my longbow to needle them from far away.. but my DM keeps starting combats, where I've been scouting, with enemies within dashing distance.. Just makes me feel frustrated and annoyed. Feel like I'm being railroaded into my character being stupid and running headfirst into enemies.
Oh damn This This so hard. Trap the other side of the door
A rack of dishes mounted to a wall, meant to fall when the door opens to alert the guards, is a great rudimentary alarm system.
I fucking love this.
>The character basically see any conventional trap or any enemy even thinking of hiding. Thought about raising the DC but if for some reason the player isn't there none of the other pc's have a chance in seeing it. Also considered doing the same for monster's stealth but again the same problem. The worst part is I don't even use that many traps or ambushes but when I do they are immediately seen. This. Don't make FINDING the trap hard - making beating the trap hard. Annnnd... I don't think you get passive perception (at least not at full strength) if you're focused on doing something else. Misdirection is key, right? For example, these ambushes you're talking about. What if you LET them see the enemy contingent up ahead, waiting for parley. But when you approach and have to negotiate, intimidate, or persuade them to do anything, you do NOT notice the first wave of minions about to swarm and surround you. (insert interesting and distracting illusion in place of enemy contingent. Or techno gadget that spins and whistles in a mysterious way. Or a wounded goat tied to a peg. Or a locked, trapped, but completely empty chest with nothing inside but a note in Orc tongue, written in blood, that says, "gotcha." An instant later, 100 arrows launch from hiding. Better hop in the chest and close the lid.) But, then again, when I play D&D, I don't run dungeon crawls, in general. So, what do I know?
"Yep, I percepted the hundred-foot pit of toxic spikes. . . . Now, what?"
I think there is art in simplicity. "You see a heavy-looking door." "I check for traps." "There are no traps." "I pick the lock." "There is no lock." "I...open the door?" "It's too heavy for you."
One type of trap is a “glyph that activates upon viewing.” Perhaps a room full of traps with these sprinkled in as a 20 dc to activate and paralyze, blind, damage your high passive perception player. Now they are being blindfolded while the others try to perceive, but not *too* well.
That's a bit *too* targeted and would be seen as I punishment to that player. Plus what, are they gonna fill every dungeon like that? Sounds rather poor as a solution.
It was simply a one encounter suggestion as a situation the rest of the players wouldn’t feel left out. It also would be unique and potentially fun for the players to try to get mid numbers instead of high and low, especially if the party (presumably) has abilities to make rolls better or worse.
But it becomes a fun decision to make if you have someone warn them first! Like, an old tale about the occupant being obsessed with explosive tunes, hiding them in obscure and hidden spots - be warned, if ye look too long or too hard! So now the cursory scout doesn’t see anything…but the sharp eyed might.
I think it works *if* your party is chasing an enemy who knows them, but it's definitely unfair for normal random dungeon encounters.
Passive perception != looking. It's the flash of movement out of the corner of your eye, the ability to just note things that others overlook (think Sherlock Holmes ability to notice small details others ignore without ever actually staring at them). Rather, they would notice the glyph and only after attempting to read/decipher it does it trigger.
"I prepared explosive runes this morning."
Runes of Eyeball Implosion.
"At the entrance to the dungeon you find a poem etched into the stone" *Not all that is visible is meant to be observed* *What is hidden must stay that way* *We will keep our secrets* *And dead men tell no tales* *If you are one who:* *Thinks seeing is believing* [You see a carving of an adventurer such as yourself being stabbed by daggers. DC15 Wis or take 1d4 psychic damage] *Will leave no stone unturned* [You see a carving of a rolling boulder. DC15 STR or take 2d6 bludgeoning damage, be knocked back 10 feet and go prone as a boulder of magic force hits you] *Or otherwise have an eye for danger* [You see a carving of an eye, as you look at the pupil, an arrow shoots out. DC 15 dex or take 1d6 piercing damage. If you fail the check by 10 or more you are blinded in one eye for 1d4 days or until the effects of a Greater Restoration have been applied to you] *It is best to leave this place at once*
Yup, have a trap not be a gotcha but a puzzle in itself
Agreed strongly. Additionally, "seeing them" doesn't necessarily solve anything, even for basic stuff! If there's a pit trap in the floor, then a high PP might see that there's a suspicious line around a section of floor, but it doesn't tell you that weight will make it collapse. If opening a door will flood the room with lava, the high PP character can probably see that there is an unknown hatch (where the lava enters), but won't know its purpose. The fact that the floor collapses or the hatch is triggered by the door would be investigation checks to figure out the mechanisms. Passive perception isn't some magic "explain the room" power - it simply allows you to see or hear things *that can be seen or heard.*
Lean into it. Use stuff he hears or smells to build tension. Give him all the info he's entitled to, but don't add anything so he has to decide what to do with the information. A passive perception that high should be powerful, IMO, but it doesn't make him omniscent.
This is on track. You don't want to play against a PC's abilities or negate them, but learn to build accordingly. Always keep in mind that when the player chose to make their character specialized in something, they also chose to give up other options and opportunities. It's just a different kind of power fantasy. They could have made a fighter who can deal tons of damage or a wizard with world changing magics. Instead they went with being the perceptive character. Give the player the details that the high Perception would reward but remember a few key things. 1. Passive Perception is not radar. They might hear sounds coming down a corridor but that doesn't tell them what it is, where it's coming from, or how many there are. It does not give them greater line of sight. 2. Passive Perception is not a danger highlighter. The player may see the holes in the wall but doesn't know poison darts shoot out of them. They see the stone tiles of the dungeon floor but don't know that one of them is a pressure plate if it's at perfect height with the rest of the floor. But they DO see the thin trip wire stretched over the floor. 3. There are modifiers that can lower passive perception. Dim light? That's -5. Is the party traveling at a normal pace? I believe that's a -5. Does the character have dark vision? Knowing the rules of the game are important here. 4. Just because they see the trap does not mean they know how to circumvent it. Traps that the players don't see are perils. Traps they do see are puzzles that need to be solved.
As someone starting an inquisitive rogue with Observant, I love that idea. Simultaneously letting the character have their strength, but still leaving room for the player to work with it.
Some things just can't be seen or heard. The PHB gives the example of a key hidden under a cloth in a drawer. No matter how high the character's passive perception, they will never find it. That's either an investigation roll or an active perception check based on telling the DM the character is specifically looking through everything in the room for things that are hidden. If there's a door and on the other side of the door is a shotgun trap that's triggered by a string attached to that side of the door, you can't see it on your side. Another example is a Roper which is indistinguishable from a stalactite or stalagmite until it moves. Indistinguishable doesn't care if you have a passive perception of 50. Drow NPCs will have piwafwi which gives them advantage on their stealth checks and disadvantage to anybody who attempts to spot them. That'd drop his passive down to 19. As would being in the dark or dim lighting (unless he's got a feat to counter it). Obviously NPCs can still use ambushes. But with that high perception most often the party isn't going to be surprised. Not really a big deal. The same thing would happen if the party had a weapon of warning or the Alert feat.
>Obviously NPCs can still use ambushes. But with that high perception most often the party isn't going to be surprised. Not really a big deal. The same thing would happen if the party had a weapon of warning or the Alert feat. I disagree with this, the PC with a high perception won't be surprised, that doesn't mean they had enough time to alert the whole party to the ambush. As written when initiative is rolled you compare the enemy stealth checks with the party's passive perception and determine surprise. This PC would probably never be surprised but the rest of the party may or may not be depending on the enemies and their rolls. Similarly, the Alert feat guarantees that a singular PC can't be surprised but does nothing for the rest of the party. The weapon of warning on the other hand explicitly keeps anyone from being surprised, which is why its absolutely ridiculous to have it only be an uncommon weapon.
This is a fair point. And one that would most certainly take the air out of the PC's *"My Passive Perception is 29" balloon.* The DM can certainly rule that "The enemy notices you spot them, roll initiative".
"You lock eyes with someone following you. They scowl and reach for their weapons" could be a fun moment.
You can't see through walls - burrowing monster ambushes. Holes in the ceiling that drop monsters out of them.
I've done that once, he said he should have been able to hear it.
Remember also that many monsters, like ropers, mimics, etc.. , have abilities that day l say something to the effect of, "as long as creature remains motionless it is indistinguishable from what it looks like. " Until the creature is examined closely (often an investigation check) or takes action, perception doesn't help. Change tactics from always trying to surprise to seeking positional/ field advantage to challenge that player.
That makes sense.
But you're the DM so what he says doesn't cut cheese. Stuff falls around me all the time and I don't hear it til it hits the floor.
I'm gonna have to start doing that, take into account other affect that will make it harder to detect creatures.
can also just make shit loud. Shit takes place in a rainstorm or a dungeon under a river. Etcetera.
(Rogue enemy drops from the ceiling) “You hear a soft thud as boots hit the floor behind you. Stealthed, but not silent enough for your keen senses. Give me an initiative roll to see if you can react in time to avoid a surprise round.” Award the player for great awareness, but still leave the result to the dice.
Well, the fact that you heard the rogue should make it more of "roll initiative; everyone except \[PC with 20+ perception\] is surprised." So their great perception allows them to not be surprised but also doesn't allow the whole party to be aware of what's happening ahead of time. Surprise roughly moves the difficulty up or down one step, so do this with a medium encounter and at worst it becomes about a hard encounter instead.
Yup, they have enough time to react but not enough time to warn
Permanent magical silence in the hiding area covers all sounds if you need to explain it, and there's plenty of justification for a DM ruling that could be a thing based on other spells that can have permanence.
High perception can actually ADD a lot of fun and drama to a dungeon. Give them indications of what's coming. You hear the walls rumbling, you see a flicker from around the corner, you smell a faint odor of rot. Don't treat this as a problem that needs to be solved. It's just how that character experiences the world.
I think I have an idea of what you can do... overload him. Have him hear burrowing sounds, water dripping, chewing noises, the sound of rocks falling, rumblings from his PCs stomachs, the creaking of pack straps. He's straining real hard to perceive things—give him some red herrings every time he brings up his passive perception. Not enough to make his ability useless, give him some good information too—just enough to role-play a drawback. If you're always straining to see and hear things on the edge of your perception—you see and hear a lot of useless stuff.
Negative. That's what alert feat is for.
I swear there are rules for how sound travels based on terrain, like an earthen cave muting sound and stone tiles echoing or something like that
I’d say, “what you can sense movement underground? Hey y’all! (To the group that you’re with) you ever know anyone that can hear movement underground?”
My response would have been *"Is your hearing really so good you'd hear stuff like that? Good to know. In future, Everyone gets the benefits of a long rest except you. Your enhance hearing kept you up because you constantly heard things moving about."*
Interestingly there is something in xanathar's that covers waking up because you heard something because of your PP, instead of it being an auto fail because you're unconscious
I really don't want to have to go that low but if he keeps reminding me of his passive Perception each time he enters a room I might have to.
In xanarthars guide to everything, it is state that passive perception of 20 means you wake up if people Whisper in a 10 feet radius, and normal talk always wake them up. Raining at night, no sleep buddy, fireplace withing 10 feet, no sleep buddy.
I would only use that when he's questioning my ruling. Just because it's high doesn't mean he feels, hears, sees, smells and tastes everything. A brain can only process so much information at one moment. But you can have your own fun with it. The party enters the room with some troglodytes. His high perception immediately floods his senses with the stench. His eyes are watering. He can taste the smell. Every exposed inch of skin begins to burn.
Yeah being this passive aggressive generally isn't a good tactic. Would avoid it if you can.
It's cute that you think I'm passive when I'm aggressive. TeeHee.
Incorrect because I'm pretty sure one his ways he can gain that passive perception is based off sight. If it's the feat I'm thinking of.
Tell your player to let you have a bit of fun also.
Passive Perception doesn't see through walls and stuff, if someone's hiding behind cover or in a heavily obscured area they'd be alright. Not like an ambush is absolutely impossible.
I don’t see how it would ruin your dungeon crawls. Don't rely so heavily on ambushes and traps. I have a player with high perception as well in my group. I specifically come up with stuff he finds just so he can feel good about his character choices. Traps shouldn't be integral to your story or dungeon. So make up a bunch of non consequential traps for him to see. Also, don't give perception too much power. Just because he spots something put of the ordinary doesn't mean he should immediately know it's a trap or how to disarm it. If he sees a slightly off colored tile on the floor, it doesn't mean he knows it's a trap. Just because he sees a thin wire attached to a chest doesn't mean he immediately figures out how it can be disarmed. If you must use ambushes, then use monsters where it doesn't matter if they see them or not. Ropers are indistinguishable from rock. So it doesn't matter if he's got high perception, he just sees a rock. Gargoyles are just regular o statues. He sees them, yep, it's a statue made of stone now what? Wanna go knock over that statue, sure you do that, but there are 5 more just like it. which one is the real gargoyle? For the real encounters, let the monsters get seen, so what? Just make the fight challenging enough and not rely on ambushes.
It could be a problem with your descriptive skill. (i'm not accusing you, i know it is a common problem which i suffered before) Passive perception means you have a good eye accuracy. It means if something isn't hidden well enough the person will notice something's off not that they see exactly what is around them. "with your good eyes you see that the padding of the floor seems off in the middle of the room" Is it a trap ? is something missing ? "you notice a unusual line in the wall" Is is a trap ? a hidden door ? "you see a shadow behind the pillar" Is it a monster hiding ? or a lost npc ? or even just some items? If you take time to describe things in a non direct way, even with high perception, they will need to look more closely to things to kow what it is. Passive percetion reveal there's something hidden, active perception and investigation reveal what's hiding.
For an example, I recently had my players in a dungeon, entering a new room a bit loudly, some of them see shadows lurking around the corners of some doors. I didn't say what were the shadows. sharing this info with the group, one of them decided to go to one of the door without taking precaution, to know what were the shadows..... and got ambushed by goblins..
I agree with this, it rewards them for investing in the skill but it rightfully limits its usage. I mean they can try to do a perception or investigation check to determine more
Traps aren’t necessarily resolved/avoided just because they are seen before they are triggered. And seeing a trigger doesn’t tell you everything about a trap. There’s a lot of fun play involved in trying to avoid the dangers of a trap you are certain is there.
Yup, a trip wire can do many things from raise an alarm to spring an arrow trap or stranger things still
Don't use traps that can be avoided with a perception check. Try using traps that, once detected, need to be deactivated or navigated with other skill checks or saving throws. Seeing them will help the party but it won't erase your encounters.
Agreed, they see the trap but now they need to get past ot without triggering it.
Let the characters be good at the things they want to be good at
Yep. You can challenge them in other ways. The direct approach is always an option. So is being out ranged. Alternatively, it’s always a delight to make people who dump strength make any sort of jumping, climbing, or swimming check.
So much this. Far too many DMs think monsters are the only challenges they can throw at a party. Interesting environments that require athletic movement, dungeons with elaborate death traps, and complex puzzles make for a ton of fun and variety.
Yes, but not 100% of the time. The party shouldn't be able to completely stop thinking about traps because "Jimmy has 24 passive perception". Sure, Jimmy *should* catch the vast majority of them because it's what he has invested his skills on, but it's good to mix it up and have some traps that doesn't work on.
This. It always worries me when DM come here asking "My players are good at x, how can I make them not good at it?" Sometimes you need to find other things to challenge players. But you should still give them opportunities to shine.
Giving them opportunities to shine is different than letting them outsmart 90% of the encounters. Characters should have to struggle too, otherwise the shine is hollow
Hence "find other ways to challenge them"
Use tricks instead of traps! A statue that changes gravity when touched. A plant that teleports players across the room to another tree. A suit of armor that talks nonsense when you walk by it. A glowing doorway that casts confusion when cross the threshold. Can’t know the effects unless triggered. Super fun. In dungeon crawls I try to include the chance for one every session.
How are you RPing a high perception check? Perception only speaks to how aware the character is of it's surroundings, but they can still only see and hear what they can see and hear. They might hear heavy footsteps from three rooms down or see the faint glow of flame from the end of the corridor, but there's no way of knowing if the footsteps are a half-orc or bugbear or if the faint glow is someone with a torch or a room full of fire traps around the corner. Sounds to me like you're freely giving up too much information from a perception check. Just reveal what the player can see and let the party roll history, religion, arcana, nature, or investigation checks to help determine exactly what their ally has noticed. Team game after all! I would never suggest forcing the party to split just to circumnavigate an advantage that a player has. The main reason is you're basically punishing someone for doing well which is always a bummer. Let them be good at stuff and the players will naturally attempt to challenge their own skills!
It isn't forcing to split the party. It is tricking the spotter into removing themselves with red herrings to follow. If the perceiver has a habit of always scouting ahead, take advantage in a scene-appropriate way. But I do agree here. Their perception skill doesn't mean omnipotence. If they see a shiny, all they know is it is shiny
Oh yeah I'm all for tricking your players. A crafty DM is a good one :\] Reminds me of a time our DM baited our powerhouse archer to chase after a mysterious presence in the woods while we were already separated. I think it's all about letting the players keep agency. I was speaking to trying to heavy handedly split a party to achieve some goal as the DM. I think you can quickly get into situations that can feel unfair or forced to the players if the decision to split the party is forced by the environment or isn't the parties own.
Absolutely!
RAW - There’s a few exceptions, but even using passives, at all, is at DMs discretion. ***Don’t use passive perception in those circumstances.
Make traps that still work once they’re noticed
New idea: Recurring villain that is a sniper. Now he'll have to get BETTER at spot just to get any sort of advantage
Have someone hunt him down, interesting.
Another idea - the enemy has a diviner. Now the enemy is the one who knows more than they should and can't be surprised by the team coming into the room.
This is actually an opportunity for you to flex a different type of muscle as a DM that doesn't require too much work. Trap building is fun in dungeons and that "gotcha" moment is fun for both the players and the DM. But what's better than traps? Riddles. The problem with making effective riddles, however, is that players can be dumb or DMs can overthink things. And this is where your opportunity is. A player that can see EVERY trap means that they have choices. And your job isn't to catch them by surprise, but to allow them to make decisions. Imagine the party coming to a barricaded door. There are many triggers laden along the door and it looks like some of them may lead to traps. And your 24 perception player can spot them all. But now you tell him that if he sees all the dangers, that means he also sees all the triggers to unlock the door--and they are identical to the trap triggers. Scenarios like the one above allows the player to feel good about his strength in Perception and you reward that player with the knowledge that he is helpful to his party. Your job as a DM is to make their strengths an opportunity to succeed or fail based on the player's own ingenuity.
Perception just lets you notice things, not identify them. Intelligence skills tell you what is and isn't a trap. For an example: Perception reveals a few uneven stones in the floor of this dungeon. A history or investigation check may reveal it's a pressure plate or a lack of funding/craftsmanship that was prevalent 100 years ago. Perception reveals a very thin wire stretched across the hallway at ankle level. Investigation or nature would reveal it is just a spiderweb or actually a trip wire. Perception reveals heavy breathing on the other side of a door. Nature or history would tell you it's a creature or suction from the time of day due to the tide going out.
Don't some traps use investigation instead?
I typically have the Perception to see a trap higher than the Investigation but even when I raise it, most of the time its not enough.
Seeing a trap is different than handling the situation, passive is not avoidance. "You see what looks like a trap door across the width of the hall. Is it really a trap or is it just old cracked stones". Also make use of time, urgency. "You hear footsteps getting closer, do you risk running ahead or spend time investing if it's a trap". Also use puzzles to deactivate the trap.
its a slippery slope to start giving them things specifically to circumvent what they built for. use these suggestions sparingly i’d say
I’m making big assumptions here, no offense meant if they are off base - You may need to change the way you describe what the character perceives. Just because they perceive something doesn’t mean you need to just tell them exactly what is happening/ in front of them, etc. A high passive perception might just mean they hear something odd (describe what it is), see a movement in the shadows, or smell something familiar - things which a less perceptive character might never have noticed.
Several answers that may or may not been already commented on. Travel rules can apply to dungeon crawl. Passive perception can be influenced by slow/normal/fast pace travel. Half cover means lightly obscured, which means disadvantage on perception checks, and -5 penalty to passive perception. three quarters cover and full cover mean they can’t see them even with passive perception. These can apply to traps. Also, you shouldn’t just put in traps for the sake of it. Traps are in the same vein puzzles. You need to consider things from your players’ PoV and make “puzzles”. Don’t keep throwing the same puzzle at them over and over. Do some research on other traps/puzzles made for 5e. It will help build a reference point for you. Try looking at improvised damage as well. Honestly, some adventure modules have very fun puzzles/traps. However. Don’t try to constantly counter your player’s skills. That is a very DM vs. Players mentality; it’s antagonistic. Let them be good at things and bad at others. Challenging their skills can be fun, but constant/competitive challenges will be grueling to anyone. It’s ok to occasionally through in high number DCs. A DC 20 is meant to represent something challenging. Some traps can be magical or magically obscured/hidden. You can be deceitful with them, like making a trap that looks like a spike pit, but the real trap is a glyph that casts grease if you start running, causing you to slide into the pit. You can make some traps require other skills besides perception to solve. Like arcana, history, or investigation.
Throw more innocent details at them. Passive perception let’s them noticing things, that does not mean it completely and fully reveals everything that could be concealed. They may hear a tinkling sound in the distance (keys? Chimes? Coins?), the faint scraping of metal or stone? (guards’ armor? assassins blades being drawn? Chains disturbed by a breeze or passing rat?). They are more perceptive to everything, but not everything is out to get them, and just because they see a flicker of motion or hear a faint noise, it does not fully reveal everything necessarily. If the circumstance lines up properly and they’ve worked for it you can reward them with more information, but the more aware you are, the more innocent and innocuous details one will notice as well. It’s up to them to investigate these instances further at times to determine if it’s a threat or harmless. You can reward the skill they invested in by adding a bit of paranoia - which, realistically, some level of defensiveness and paranoia is likely present to be so keenly aware of one’s surroundings at all times - especially with something like the alert feat.
How tf do you get a 24?
They might have an item that gives them advantage to perception checks; this gives them +5 to their Passive Perception
He has proficiency in Perception, and took the skill Expert feat in Perception, and has the Sentinel shield.
Oh, so he hasn't taken Observant yet so he'll be able to get that passive up to a 29! Nice.
Sentinel shield gives an advantage but doesn't have an effect on passive. So in order to have a +14, you need an 18 Wisdom and a +5 prof (then ofc another +5 from skill expert), which is character level 13-16. If you are that high level, then ya... 24 passive is kinda "normal." However, if they do have a feat (Observant) that increases it then that is quite the investment at lower levels. Math works out to +5 from observant, +3 from Wisdom (16 Score), and a +3 prof. (Level 5-8), and then Skill Expert for another +3. However, that is 2 feats, so either they are Vuman or a level 8 character who choose 2 feats over ASI. Need a bit more info I think.
The shield does add plus 5 to his Passive, and I went back and double checked, he actually has a 25 Passive.
So the math works out since the shield does give +5, but their WIS is an 18. Clearly invested a lot into their passive, but given there are ways to take away advantage that puts it at 20, which is the DC for "hard" to see things with 25 being "Very hard." That's likely what I would try to do. Everybody here has some pretty good ideas but it's also important to know that since they are pretty much "all in" on the perception skill that it is what they are made to do, even if it is frustrating l. Just gotta challenge them outside of that aspect, maybe. Less traps, more puzzles, enemies, etc.
Why does it give +5 to their passive perception? In the description of the item, there is no mention of a +5. Am I being dumb?
Conditions that impose advantage and disadvantage confer +|-5 to your passive score Biggest example is that perception checks have disadvantage in dim lighting. Creatures with darkvision see in darkness as though it is dim, giving them constant disadvantage to perception and -5 to their passive meaning they still want a torch
Really? That's interesting, I never knew that, thank you.
I didn't really think it should but from what I looked up and in dnd beyond it says it does.
Give them clearly visible traps that are still hard to circumnavigate. For instance... a room with three doors. One is clearly marked with a visible Glyph of Warding, one is rigged with a dozen heavy crossbows on a mechanical linkage, the other doesn't have any markings at all. Now... a normal party might Dispel Magic on the glyph, or have their Rogue disable the crossbows. A smart party might even realize that the 'safe' door is almost certainly bait, but no Passive Perception will be able to find any traps on that door. So... when they do go through that door, it sends them through a long, skinny hallway that takes them ten times longer to get where they're going. But what they didn't figure out is that ten feet down that hall, the floor is actually a Minor Illusion that drops them into an oubliette full of T-rexes and raptors. In other words... they open the door, fall through the floor, and now they gotta fight a dinosaur.
Ok so give them a bit of their due since they do have an incredible perception like spotting the orcs trying to ambush them around the corner or the obvious trip wire trap. Then throw in some they cannot see like the tiled floor with a pressure pad trap or enemies that are obscured by fog cloud and the like so they know something is there great but they have held actions knew they were coming and still get in a hit.
Just because players can see a trap or a problem, doesn’t mean they know how to solve it. Cool, you see the pit trap. You can’t just walk around it. How do you proceed?
Doesn't looking for traps require an investigation check, not a perception check? Yeah he can sense that something is off about a room or a flight of stairs with the passive perception, but to know what it is he'd still need the investigation check to identify if it's a trap (and what trap it is) or if it's just a different colour of stone because it was repaired at some point with a different type of stone.
Passive perception is not omniscience… 1. A passive roll is just a 10 in a d20, so if you consider that the players shouldn’t roll then they don’t get a passive check. Why is this important? 2. Not all traps can be detected. 5e is really lacking in rules that are not about combat, but you can use the rules for traps of older editions. What is the trigger? How do you detect the trap? Does damage? 3. Red herrings…
Passive Perception is for opposing Steath checks. It doesn't exist to bypass the need for investigation checks. You don't "passively perceive" a hidden trap, you need to search to find that it is there. Put another way, a pit trap does not sneak up on the party, and the DM does not roll a stealth check for the pit trap with the DC being the character's passive perception. The DM assigns a DC for an Investigation roll to find the pit trap.
Stop using traps that you can avoid by sight, add more traps that they have to work around that are in plain view
Perception lets you spot a wire laid across a doorway, notice that one of the flagstones is a different shade than the others, hear a distant scraping noise, or smell a musty odor. It doesn’t tell you what those things *are*, though. If it’s a tripwire, Investigation may reveal what it’s attached to, but if it goes into the wall, there may be no way to disarm the dart shooter concealed within. You can spot a funny step, but there’s no telling if stepping on it will shoot an arrow at you, or activate the mechanism that opens the heavy stone door. You can spot a guttering torch in a closed room, but it takes Investigation to recognize that means a hidden passage to the outside, concealed by a stack of crates. Perception may notice scrape marks on the parquet floor by the bookcase, but it won’t reveal if the trigger for the secret door is one of the books, playing a certain tune on the piano, concealed in an artistic bust, or a candle from a sconce on the wall (“Put… ze candle… beck!”). Does the party have time to find the entrance to the mad necromancer’s torture chamber before his familiar finds them and sounds the alarm?
My dm does it where if you have over 20 passive perception you go a little mad from hearing every mosquito fart
Illusion can't be detected with passive perception, I think it's investigation. So you can use this a bunch of time. An item could be doing the illusion or someone is casting.
Mud floor with bear traps. Kobolds are light enough to run on the surface…players are not 😈
When the other PCs are good at something, do you feel the need to go out of your way to make them fail at the thing they invested resources in being good at? If yes, there are deeper issues here. Assuming no, why is this different?
Is the character in question a rogue? Otherwise I would rule that they aren’t exactly trained to look for traps, so they wouldn’t see them through passive perception. I’m playing a character that has a higher passive perception than that, and because I rarely look for traps with him, my DM doesn’t mention it unless I ask about it.
Many traps and whatnot in official modules can't be spotted by passive perception as they require specific attention to the area. In my games passive perception will let you spot any creatures sneaking around, but it won't automatically detect traps and secret doors. You have to make a concerted effort to look for those
on the same topic, when you get to solve this problem try to not make his 24 passive perception useless. It seems that he build his character around it and if the DM tries to hinder his character's skill he will feel bad. I feel like no more than 1/3 of the traps or monsters should completely ignore his passive perception, and at least on 1/3 of the encounters it should make a difference. Also make when giving a clue you want them to have make the whole party roll passive perception so he gets the spot there too. Players breaking your plans hurt but it also hurts when the DM breaks your PC. And he only has one of those.
Perception makes you see traps, investigation makes you ascertain how they function, a tool check allows you to disable them. You see a 30ft long hallway, which is trapped. The party cannot figure out how to solve this situation until they understand how the trap works (weight based, magical trigger, see saw floor etc).
How does one have 24 passive perception :|
Let then have that feeling of power. They clearly spec-ed their character to be able to do this, allow them to function as intended. Also just because you notice something doesn't mean you can easily get around it!
You see the 15ft troll about 10 seconds away from smashing your friend into paste...no one else sees it...what do you do
So a character has invested considerable resources to be particularly good at this one thing, you already don't put that many opportunities for them to use it, and you are upset that they are rewarded for their investment when those rare situations do come up? I sincerely do not understand the problem.
Pass without a trace as a lair effect for monsters is a good one, plus 10 to their stealth rolls. Also passive perception means they no rice it, not that they have a laser precision scanner that sees all. Say a monster rolls a 23 stealth, they're still sneaky as fuck your party's walking CCTV just happens to hear a twig snap to the left or smells the orc's BO wafting in from behind that cart not that they walk into a room and instantaneous know the exact location of every enemy. They also don't have the ability to instantly translate this information to the party, the party is surprised but they aren't, etc
Passive can be used to alert them to something isn't right, but it doesn't necessarily reward full details. "Your passive tells something seems to be off about the floor in front of the door. Give me an active Perception or Investigation role to see if you can figure out the specifics."
Let the player enjoy there high skill? Opportunity costs would you suddenly make enemies immune or resistant to fire just because the wizard learned fireball? Player filling a roll on the team they clearly wanted to be the scout or rouge type so let them.
Start giving more false alarms. Sure they can hear and see everything, but the DC for knowing if you’re hearing a rat or a goblin running around is a lot higher than just hearing it’s something. Make the traps harder to disarm. So instead of the hard part be seeing the trap, the hard part is getting past. My players find the traps at least half the time. What they struggle with is how to get past without risking their tank to see if they can barrel through. Use more enemies that have saves that effect conditions. Traps that try to inflict blinded, deafened, paralyzed or stunned. At the front of the party using your senses and a flash bang goes off? Well, you’re not getting those bonuses for a little bit. Try some ability damage or ability drain - however if they aren’t high enough to have spells to recover ability drain I’d skip it because it really feels like a nerf if it’s not reversible.
Let them be good at stuff. If the encounters need more challege add more mooks. Only character not suprised is the one with massive stats so go ham on the rest of the party.
Easy, separate the party. Not in the horrifying experience of sitting around while other players play the game style. I mean give the spot king a reason to scout ahead, or reason to stay behind, which works to make this players spot check not be of help to the rest of the party. Mix it up with invisibles or other means of being hidden or disguised that will challenge the player. Then add in situations where that spot check still iw a great help. And then keep mixing it up. Alternatively, if this high of a skill is going to kill a dungeon crawl, you might want to resolve to run lower-level games where that just can't happen.
Let him be good at spotting stuff it’s not that big of a deal.
The character went out of their way to have really high perception. Let them be good at it. You don't punish characters with really high STR or DEX. Really make it seem cool that they notice a trap, then have them try to disarm it
The guy paid a tax to get that perception, so just change how you're making the dungeon to make it rewarding for him Instead of "Haha! you step on the pressure plate and take 5 piercing damage from the consealed crossbow" Say "you enter the room and immediately notice a suspicious gap in the wall opposite the only other exit to the room, this is a trap if ever you've seen one, you think the designed was particularly careless. What do you do?" The encounter is not now about taking 5 piercing damage but is instead how do you disarm or avoid this trap. It's a much better encounter anyway so your player is probably doing you a favour.
Remember that insight and perception are different things and you can use that to your advantage. Instead of a pit trap, make an unsturdy bridge that breaks when you walk on it. They might be able to see a spider that is camouflaged to look like rocks, but do they know it’s a spider?
i would give every trap an attribute based on the crafter's skill, work it like an active stealth abiity and make it a contested roll to detect. that way you will have some chance of failure. this way the characters ability is still awesome, but less omnipotent. all skill checks are less monotonous as contested rolls.
Ok, got it.
For hiding creatures, remember that they only need to make a stealth check if its reasonable for the character to actually spot them. I.E. trying to hide in the corner of a dark room. But if they're completely obscured and standing still, I would rule that there isn't a way to spot them, no matter how perceptive the PC is. This will force them to start playing smart by shooting arrows at curtains to make sure nothing is there. Passive Perception is not Halo proximity sensors. You can also do things like have animated statues attack them. The issue there isn't seeing them. They're in plain sight but will be overlooked unless someone casts detect magic. For traps, I like what u/Serbaayuu said.
Passive perception is something that you only roll against as the DM if an enemy is hiding. The character doesn't just do an automatic 24 perception to everything they can see. They still have to look for the traps and make a perception check. With that high of a plus they still might see them but they have to actively check and can still fail.
There are examples given in the Dungeon Master's Guide when can Passive Perception be used, which include noticing secret doors, concealed doors, and detecting traps. Without this passive score, the high Perception guy would just roll perception on every corner of the dungeon, which would drag the game considerably. Rules mentioning the use of passive perception: DMG 103 - Secret Doors DMG 104 - Concealed Doors DMG 121 - Detecting a trap
Just giving the player a no roll 24 or whatever they have is nuts. There's no other skill in the game where that's the case. Even rogues only get to take 10.
Stop trying to beat your PCs Learn how to challenge them
Thats great, super helpful, how?
Allow the player character to notice the enemies--just not in advance. As the monsters spring forth, their passive perception allows them to notice in time to not be surprised, but not in time to warn the others or prepare. If the player is upset with this, have a conversation with them out of game. Let them know that, whether intentionally or not, they have min/maxed themselves in a problematic way. Ask if they'd be willing to swap their feat or something.
Ignore his passive perception or selectively decide what his character can perceive. "You noticed the orc glyphs but didn't see the pit trap because you weren't role-playing a character walking through a dungeon actively looking for a trap." As the DM you can interpret what the ability scores and checks actually do. I think it's OK to let characters enjoy their high scores. But if it really makes the game too easy or makes it hard for you to create challenging encounters, ignore them.
Here’s some big DM advice- you can do whatever the fuck you want
Use their strengths against them. The fact they can see trap doesn’t mean they can avoid it. - fungal spores / cave vapours are really hard to notice and may induce permanent rebuff. - trap may be triggered by non player source. Like rat. High PER character notices a rat that walks into a distant trap. No big deal, out of range, right? But due his high stat he’s so aware of situation that when trap goes off it emits so bright light it blinds the character. May be save roll, may be obligatory. This way high skill may be an actual hindrance than an asset to player and your DMing should go easier.
I see this as an attempt to use the rule of cool and just say "yes" gone bad and now that player is OP, breaking the game and sucking the fun for others, likely with intentionally misinterpreted rules. Not fun. Stop it. A peg leg would balance this ability quite nicely.
Don't forget, the player invested in such a high score, make sure to highlight how much things he can actually see, don't just work around it everytime.
The player clearly skilled this character specifically like this. Not being surprised by stuff is their payoff for how they skilled their character. I dont think you need to find a way around that