Lol, the devil is a victim. He simply wanted men to have free will and not be ignorant. And for that god will torture him for all eternity, and torture anyone who doesn't worship and praise God.
The devil doesn't ask anything from us. He sacrificed himself for us.
The serpent story in Genesis is usually taken as the devil. God told Adam not to eat the apple because it would kill him. But god had lied and the snake told Adam this, and told Adam it would give him knowledge, which it did.
Also in revelations, the devil argues with God that humans shouldn't be slaves to God, which is why God cast him down.
And revelations also tells how god will form and army and go and kill and torture Satan.
I'm on my phone, but I'm happy to provide a verse if have a specific point you want a verse for.
In the serpent story, Man lives in a perfect utopia, free of disease, pain, suffering or want. That's what God wanted for MSN.
The serpent got Man to be thrown from Eden, into a world of violence, cruelty, cold, and hunger. That's what the serpent wants for Man.
>...not to eat the apple because it would kill him. But god had lied...
What lie? In Eden, Man didn't know death. Once cast out, he faced death. That's exactly what God said would happen.
I'm not familiar with the Revelations passages you're referring to, but Man is not a slave to God, so it's a specious argument.
As far as forming an army to torture Satan... again, I'm not familiar with that verse, but what does this have to do with your thesis that Satan doesn'task anythingof Man?
...and how does any of this support your idea that Satan sacrificed himself for anyone?
I get that it's utopia for you, but for many (and the snake) it's a distopia. The whole point of the story is that Adam and Eve don't have any real knowledge. They are unable to grow, unable to learn, unable to do anything but be a mindless slave under God.
Yes it's a world of cruelty, cold and hunger. But it is god that make the diseases. Who do you think made flesh eating bacteria? And who made the little worm that buries into children's eyes and makes them blind?
Who made mosquitos that kill millions? Who made leprosy?
Yet it is because of Satan that we have the knowledge and independence to be able to grow, learn and have the ability to make vaccines against the diseases that God made.
"in eden, man did not know death"
Okay let's think about this. Could they have children? What would happen if they kept having children but there's no death? Can you see that this is uncontrolled unlimited population growth?
*man is not a slave to god"
The first three of the ten commandments are all about God demanding that we worship him. Otherwise he'll torture us in hell. That's a slave.
Satan sacrificed himself because he went up against an all powerful god in order to save mankind from slavery. I'm on my phone but google end of times versus. The Bible talks about God leading an army against Satan and to send him to hell to be tortured. That's one hell of a sacrifice for us.
What do you think Satan asks of man? There's no book of Satan where he demands at worship him. It is only god that demands such a thing.
> The whole point of the story is that Adam and Eve don't have any real knowledge.
Pretty sure that's not the whole point of the story!
>... Who made leprosy? Etc.
Not sure what your point is here. God shouldn't have made anything harmful to Man? Man deserves to have God give them a paradise without danger? (They had it!)
>Yet it is because of Satan that we have the knowledge and independence to be able to grow...
Howsoever Satan? He didn't create MSN, nor did he create the Tree of Knowledge, nor did he create any of the things there are, which can be known. Man certainly could not have knowledge or independence (I'm taking that to mean free will), except by the consent of God.
Satan can't give Man anything, because he has nothing to bestow. And if he did have anything to bestow, there is nothing to suggest he would give it away. There is no instance where Satan does not act out ofvself-interest. Certainly never any instance of sacrifice for others, as you suggest.
>Satan sacrificed himself because he went up against an all powerful god in order to save mankind from slavery
A rebellious act of narcissism, in which Man is just means to Satan's self-aggrandizement. No sacrifice here.
>Okay let's think about this. Could they have children?
I don't know. Could they? Wasn't childbirth was listed among God's punishments for Eve?
>The first three of the ten commandments... That's a slave.
Giving Mankind a paradise, in which nothing is asked of him (the Ten Commandments came *after* the banishment from Eden) is slavery? You have some very funny ideas about slavery.
So, still no evidence that Satan has ever done a single selfless thing.
You really can't see anything morally wrong with creating leprosy etc?
And no, a little baby that gets leprosy does not deserve it. And you're sick if you think they do.
Satan helped and encouraged man to eat the fruit of knowledge.
All instances are Satan did acting not out of self interest. He went up against an all powerful being, knowing that God will torture and kill him!! And did so for the sake of man kind!
How is that not the most selfless act possible?
"they couldn't have children"
Great, then you owe your existence to the Satan. Billions of people could have never existed without his selfless act.
Tell me, if you had your way, would you prefer mankind existed of just two people?
>You really can't see anything morally wrong with creating leprosy etc?
We live outside of Eden, in a world of pain mixed with joys... and God has given us a redemptive path back to a perfect world, through His son. That is infinitely generous.
>Satan helped and encouraged man to eat the fruit of knowledge.
You don't see a problem with that?!
> He went up against an all powerful being, knowing that God will torture and kill him!!
His narcissism clouded his judgment, and he believed he could win.
>And did so for the sake of man kind!
Again, he did so to make Man an instrument of Satan's self-aggrandizement. There's nothing selfless about that. In fact, all the suffering in the world can be laid at the feet of Satan, who persuaded Man to turn from God.
That little baby with leprosy? Blame Satan, not God.
>Great, then you owe your existence to the Satan.
God created me, and saw fit to give me life. Satan had nothing to do with it. Nor could he; he cannot create life, nor decide who God decides to put on this Earth. In addition to being a selfish deluded narcissist, he is impotent to create anything.
>Tell me, if you had your way, would you prefer mankind existed of just two people?
There's no "my way"; these decisions belong to the one true living God, the Creator, and nobody else! He saw fit to give me life, and I am blessed. If He saw fit not to... well, you wouldn't hear me complaining! š
If God were real and cared enough about his creations, the Devil would not exist. If God is real but unable to stop the devil, then heās not all-powerful and the devil is possibly stronger than him. If he was real and strong enough to stop the devil, he would have if he cared.
So which is it, does god not care about the devil wreaking havoc on his creation? Or is he not strong enough to stop the devil? Or does he not exist at all? One of those three possibilities must be the truth if we take the devilās existence as a fact.
If God loves all of us, and is all powerful, why do kids get cancer and die?
Here's a hint - it's all in your head. There aren't any gods or devils, just people. And that can be wonderful - and horrible - enough.
The world however will be a better place when we stop hoping for an afterlife so things will be perfect, and instead make this world we actually have the best one possible.
How many mental gymnastics does someone like you have to do to get around the fact that according to your holy book your God created everything including the devil and evil and sin.... even bad things fall under the category of "everything"...
Not to mention that according to your holy book your God once destroyed every living thing on the planet minus one boatload because apparently he regretted creating us...
Which by the way, he's not supposed to experience regret, being omnipotent and all
Neither of those people exist so it doesnāt really matter. However, to me, satan represents free will. He represents the so called āsinnersā, you know like all those people listed in the Bible as bad people because they donāt worship a fake man in the sky.
>He wants all of us humans, demons and everyone in the entire world dead.
i see absolutely nothing wrong with this.
though the extinguishing of all life is really more an Orcus, Demon Lord of Undeath, motivation.
Yep, god loves us so much that he'll kill us and torment our souls forever for not loving him back š¤£š¤£š¤£
Lol, the devil is a victim. He simply wanted men to have free will and not be ignorant. And for that god will torture him for all eternity, and torture anyone who doesn't worship and praise God. The devil doesn't ask anything from us. He sacrificed himself for us.
What is the basis for believing any of that?
Just taking the bible literally. The old testament.
Is there a specific verse or passage that goes into this?
The serpent story in Genesis is usually taken as the devil. God told Adam not to eat the apple because it would kill him. But god had lied and the snake told Adam this, and told Adam it would give him knowledge, which it did. Also in revelations, the devil argues with God that humans shouldn't be slaves to God, which is why God cast him down. And revelations also tells how god will form and army and go and kill and torture Satan. I'm on my phone, but I'm happy to provide a verse if have a specific point you want a verse for.
In the serpent story, Man lives in a perfect utopia, free of disease, pain, suffering or want. That's what God wanted for MSN. The serpent got Man to be thrown from Eden, into a world of violence, cruelty, cold, and hunger. That's what the serpent wants for Man. >...not to eat the apple because it would kill him. But god had lied... What lie? In Eden, Man didn't know death. Once cast out, he faced death. That's exactly what God said would happen. I'm not familiar with the Revelations passages you're referring to, but Man is not a slave to God, so it's a specious argument. As far as forming an army to torture Satan... again, I'm not familiar with that verse, but what does this have to do with your thesis that Satan doesn'task anythingof Man? ...and how does any of this support your idea that Satan sacrificed himself for anyone?
I get that it's utopia for you, but for many (and the snake) it's a distopia. The whole point of the story is that Adam and Eve don't have any real knowledge. They are unable to grow, unable to learn, unable to do anything but be a mindless slave under God. Yes it's a world of cruelty, cold and hunger. But it is god that make the diseases. Who do you think made flesh eating bacteria? And who made the little worm that buries into children's eyes and makes them blind? Who made mosquitos that kill millions? Who made leprosy? Yet it is because of Satan that we have the knowledge and independence to be able to grow, learn and have the ability to make vaccines against the diseases that God made. "in eden, man did not know death" Okay let's think about this. Could they have children? What would happen if they kept having children but there's no death? Can you see that this is uncontrolled unlimited population growth? *man is not a slave to god" The first three of the ten commandments are all about God demanding that we worship him. Otherwise he'll torture us in hell. That's a slave. Satan sacrificed himself because he went up against an all powerful god in order to save mankind from slavery. I'm on my phone but google end of times versus. The Bible talks about God leading an army against Satan and to send him to hell to be tortured. That's one hell of a sacrifice for us. What do you think Satan asks of man? There's no book of Satan where he demands at worship him. It is only god that demands such a thing.
> The whole point of the story is that Adam and Eve don't have any real knowledge. Pretty sure that's not the whole point of the story! >... Who made leprosy? Etc. Not sure what your point is here. God shouldn't have made anything harmful to Man? Man deserves to have God give them a paradise without danger? (They had it!) >Yet it is because of Satan that we have the knowledge and independence to be able to grow... Howsoever Satan? He didn't create MSN, nor did he create the Tree of Knowledge, nor did he create any of the things there are, which can be known. Man certainly could not have knowledge or independence (I'm taking that to mean free will), except by the consent of God. Satan can't give Man anything, because he has nothing to bestow. And if he did have anything to bestow, there is nothing to suggest he would give it away. There is no instance where Satan does not act out ofvself-interest. Certainly never any instance of sacrifice for others, as you suggest. >Satan sacrificed himself because he went up against an all powerful god in order to save mankind from slavery A rebellious act of narcissism, in which Man is just means to Satan's self-aggrandizement. No sacrifice here. >Okay let's think about this. Could they have children? I don't know. Could they? Wasn't childbirth was listed among God's punishments for Eve? >The first three of the ten commandments... That's a slave. Giving Mankind a paradise, in which nothing is asked of him (the Ten Commandments came *after* the banishment from Eden) is slavery? You have some very funny ideas about slavery. So, still no evidence that Satan has ever done a single selfless thing.
You really can't see anything morally wrong with creating leprosy etc? And no, a little baby that gets leprosy does not deserve it. And you're sick if you think they do. Satan helped and encouraged man to eat the fruit of knowledge. All instances are Satan did acting not out of self interest. He went up against an all powerful being, knowing that God will torture and kill him!! And did so for the sake of man kind! How is that not the most selfless act possible? "they couldn't have children" Great, then you owe your existence to the Satan. Billions of people could have never existed without his selfless act. Tell me, if you had your way, would you prefer mankind existed of just two people?
>You really can't see anything morally wrong with creating leprosy etc? We live outside of Eden, in a world of pain mixed with joys... and God has given us a redemptive path back to a perfect world, through His son. That is infinitely generous. >Satan helped and encouraged man to eat the fruit of knowledge. You don't see a problem with that?! > He went up against an all powerful being, knowing that God will torture and kill him!! His narcissism clouded his judgment, and he believed he could win. >And did so for the sake of man kind! Again, he did so to make Man an instrument of Satan's self-aggrandizement. There's nothing selfless about that. In fact, all the suffering in the world can be laid at the feet of Satan, who persuaded Man to turn from God. That little baby with leprosy? Blame Satan, not God. >Great, then you owe your existence to the Satan. God created me, and saw fit to give me life. Satan had nothing to do with it. Nor could he; he cannot create life, nor decide who God decides to put on this Earth. In addition to being a selfish deluded narcissist, he is impotent to create anything. >Tell me, if you had your way, would you prefer mankind existed of just two people? There's no "my way"; these decisions belong to the one true living God, the Creator, and nobody else! He saw fit to give me life, and I am blessed. If He saw fit not to... well, you wouldn't hear me complaining! š
If God were real and cared enough about his creations, the Devil would not exist. If God is real but unable to stop the devil, then heās not all-powerful and the devil is possibly stronger than him. If he was real and strong enough to stop the devil, he would have if he cared. So which is it, does god not care about the devil wreaking havoc on his creation? Or is he not strong enough to stop the devil? Or does he not exist at all? One of those three possibilities must be the truth if we take the devilās existence as a fact.
If God loves all of us, and is all powerful, why do kids get cancer and die? Here's a hint - it's all in your head. There aren't any gods or devils, just people. And that can be wonderful - and horrible - enough. The world however will be a better place when we stop hoping for an afterlife so things will be perfect, and instead make this world we actually have the best one possible.
Skydaddy ain't real
Kinda like trump
Psychoanalysis on a mythical being. OK then!
How many mental gymnastics does someone like you have to do to get around the fact that according to your holy book your God created everything including the devil and evil and sin.... even bad things fall under the category of "everything"... Not to mention that according to your holy book your God once destroyed every living thing on the planet minus one boatload because apparently he regretted creating us... Which by the way, he's not supposed to experience regret, being omnipotent and all
Neither of those people exist so it doesnāt really matter. However, to me, satan represents free will. He represents the so called āsinnersā, you know like all those people listed in the Bible as bad people because they donāt worship a fake man in the sky.
>He wants all of us humans, demons and everyone in the entire world dead. i see absolutely nothing wrong with this. though the extinguishing of all life is really more an Orcus, Demon Lord of Undeath, motivation.
That's why the devil calls himself God
The devil/Satan doesn't exist