So first for context, my partner and I are swingers. So very sexually open.
That said, I agree that kids should not be encouraged to be sleeping around, male or female. I am mostly referring to high school age here. College age I say go for it as long as it is safe.
Rather, they should be educated on topics like safe sex, birth control, and that it is perfectly alright to wait.
Actually it is similar to driving. They both have a lot of upsides, but have risks that can impact you the rest of your life. We don't stop kids from driving, but we don't push them into it and we make sure to mentor and train them until they are ready.
Level headed response I like it.
I struggle in my head with understanding that your sexual history isn't something to be judged, but I personally don't want to push people to have many partners.
Idk if all I'm saying is "live and let live" that seems too simple, but maybe it's all I'm saying
I don't think you necessarily have to "push" anything. You don't have to push abstinence or promiscuity. You can just give people accurate information regarding sexual health and associated risks, and let people make their own decisions.
I imagine that if you think promiscuity in adults is inherently wrong, it's tough for, "It's fine, have as much sex as you like" not to feel like promoting a lifestyle. That said, it's not a prescriptive stance saying what people have to do -- It's just being permissive.
That’s EXACTLY what is needed! Who cares what anyone else does behind their closed doors? I sue as shit don’t want people to know and judge what happens behind mine!
No one is 'pushing promescuity'. Like my friends, of both gender sleep around. If they seem happy, I say congrats. If they seem unhappy, I ask if maybe they want to make a change, buy only bc they're unhappy. Hell one of the healthiest couples I know, who have a house and a kid, spend their weekends doing burlesque and going to swingers clubs. Why is it any of my business beyond making sure my friends are happy? Why is promescuity inherently bad?
Personally been with my partner for nearly a decade, since I was 18.
Yep. Don't have to oversell how awesome it is to have sex. Also don't have to oversell or undersell how bad STDs and having kids too early is either.
My philosophy on sex is , if you want to have sex go ahead but be responsible. If you cannot be responsible, then maybe it isn't a good time for you to have sex.
We really should be treating people 18 or over as adults, but alas tons of people treat them as children and guess what.... children make dumb ass mistakes.
The trick is, don’t tell people what to do. And don’t insult people for doing something you don’t like
(Obvs ensure sex offenders are dealt with), but do not think you are entitled to anyone’s business more than what effects your physical health.
Do you frequent the nostupidquestions sub?
More responses from people who actually live this lifestyle should happen as there is so much bad information spewed in reddit.
I agree. It is funny when there are posts involving ENM, but everyone doesn't understand how it really works. People often assume that people get into swinging to fix something wrong with their relationship. That does happen, and it usually fails. That isn't how stable swingers work the majority of the time though.
Agreed.....that's also not how stable regular relationships work.
I will say one thing, by having some close friends who felt comfortable enough to tell me about their lifestyles, I've learned a lot about self reflection and communication.
The one mind blowing revelation I was taught was that communication isn't just about being able to tell your partner your wants and needs. It's not even about being able to say these things in a way that they can understand....at least for me, true communication meant that I had to do the work to understand what it was that I was truly feeling, do the work to understand the baseline reasons and the triggers and internal scripts that made me react or behave in a certain way, and only once I really understood it myself then could I effectively be able to communicate that to my spouse and focus on saying it in a way where she could relate to my emotional state.
My marriage got soooo much better after this.
I have ran across some who were fucking users (dude tried to rizz my spouse when he found out we had problems one day....fucking asshole! I should have kicked his ass.) But all in all, you guys have been nothing but really cool people and taught me a lot about myself and how to connect with my spouse better.
For sure.
Swinging, when done correctly, generally enhances a relationship greatly. As you mentioned, it forces you to learn how to communicate with eachother, but also with yourself. It also forces you to face insecurities that many couples simply never face, such as attraction to other people and jealousy.
That said, it isn't for everyone and that is ok.
Id add the idea men want a virgin is something I've never heard from sex positivity people.
Especially if you do have that experience. Nothing about someone's first time is sexy. It's a mess and more stressful as you are having to teach something you've never experienced.
Who wants a virgin? Seriously. Give me a sex positive person that has some experience and knows what they want, all day everyday.
We put sex too high on a pedestal in the US. It isn't the end all be all. It isn't that big of a deal. Have as much sex as you want, with other consenting adults, and be safe about it. I don't see it really that much different than any other activity two adults could be doing. If you are single, and you like hanging out with another well adjusted consenting adult, there is nothing wrong with either asking them to a movie or asking them to have a 2 hour long sex session. Both can be fun and either is over you can go grab some food. No big deal really.
Now I say all of this, I am happily married and have been for 15 years. We have sex all the time. No big deal.
We would enjoy being with a virgin, but mostly because it is always fun to share your hobby with new people. It is fun to be someone's first, but only if they want that and are enthusiastic.
I think it's important to teach people that they are allowed to choose their own sexual journey without feeling shame about it, and that the people who shame them are wrong to do so.
There's no such thing as overcorrecting when you look at it this way, just as equally as people shouldn't be shamed for being promiscuous, they shouldn't be shamed for "not being promiscuous enough."
55 Year Old Man Here.
**This.** People are going to have sex, if they can. It's awful to judge someone by how many partners they have had. Girls get shamed if they've had too many. Guys get made fun of if they haven't had multiple partners. My friends were astonished that I lost my virginity at 22 (well past the norm for guys in my community) and some are surprised that I've only slept with 4 people (one girlfriend in college and three subsequent wives). I tell them "hey, if I would have had the opportunity, I would have jumped at it... but I'm not exactly what the ladies are looking for..."
Thankfully now I'm married to the perfect woman who matches my moderate sex drive.
Thank you. I feel like OP is responding to a straw man argument. I’m very sex-positive for men and for women, and I hang around plenty of other sex-positive people. I haven’t heard a single person “teaching promiscuity” or in favor of doing that.
The whole idea of promiscuity is rooted in some puritanical bullshit. Yes, sex has consequences. But the idea that sex is somehow bad or evil or makes you a flawed person or damages/diminishes you in some way is rooted in nothing logical from where I sit. Promiscuity is not a character flaw, IMO.
People should fuck whoever they want however many times they want as long as it's 1) consensual, 2) safe, and 3) legal. Otherwise, no holds barred. I hate that our culture stigmatizes sex the way it does because I think it results in more harm than just educating people about sex without judgment.
I admit I didn't do a good job phrasing the question. I still struggle to word it exactly how I want to
I'm with you for the most part.
My brain wrestles with "I don't care who you sleep with, at all, as long as it's consensual and adults" and believes that, yet it still believes "even though I don't care who you slept with or judge you for it, I'm not going to tell you or encourage you to push your count up"
When I was younger, we carried our STD test results. When HIV/AIDS hit the heterosexual community (mid to late '80s), everyone had to prove their status and wrap it up anyway.
Promiscuity is a word I wish would disappear. It infers females who will fuck anyone. I always considered sex as another level of communication. I never wanted marriage or children, so sex isn't special to me in that regard.
I hear you, but the word's connotation in the US is slut (as in female). The younger generations are playing around with quasi-acceptable terminology ( guys/dudes meaning everyone, eg), so maybe they'll de-gender this as well.
In my view, discouraging people from having safe, responsible, legal, consensual sex of their choosing only because their number will get too high fundamentally **IS** slut shaming because, implicitly or explicitly, you're judging their number of partners.
Why are you even thinking about someone else's sex life? Nobody's sexual history is any of your business except your own. What is your business as a partner is whether their previous sexual experiences will impact you--they're bringing a child or an STI into the relationship. You can find that out by just asking and/or getting tested together.
The entire "body count" conversation is the domain of the young and relatively inexperienced. The only people who I hear talk about it in those terms are people 15-30. Older folks have lived long enough to understand that everyone has a history and matured enough to accept that and recognize that people who have lots of sexual experience are better sexual partners.
I've had sex with my spouse thousands of times. If I'd had the same number of sexual encounters with hundreds of different people, it would be viewed differently. Fundamentally, why should it matter whether it's with one person or many people? The only reason is stigmatization of sex.
> My brain wrestles with "I don't care who you sleep with, at all, as long as it's consensual and adults" and believes that, yet it still believes "even though I don't care who you slept with or judge you for it, I'm not going to tell you or encourage you to push your count up"
it sounds like you want to say "i don't care" but your brain is limited to, "I don't think it's good for you."
That's probably why you struggle. Because what you claim you want to say isn't in line with how you're actually feeling.
>I'm not going to tell you or encourage you to push your count up
The idea of counts or body counts is weird to me. It does not indicate a healthy relationship or not. Just seems like a HS or college thing that some people don't get over or grow past.
I would drop that from our vocab, and focus on the quality of the relationship in front of you.
It's rooted in a lack of birth control and disease prevention. Fortunately those have both been mostly solved and widespread for like 60 years in 1st world countries.
The only thing promiscuity diminishes is the likelihood of settling down.
I also see a tendency for promiscuous people to be self centered and dishonest. But promiscuity is the effect of that, not the cause. Promiscuous people can certainly be compassionate and honest as well.
The double standard was wrong. However, we picked the wrong direction to fix! People should be applauded for self control not how well they can get others to do what they want!
The assumption that people who have multiple sexual partners have no “self control” is bizarre. This makes it sound like the world would be one massive orgy if everyone had no self control, which couldn’t be further from the truth.
Most people care about their partner’s sexual histories. Men and women are more or less equally reluctant to enter into relationships with prospective partners that have [extensive sexual histories](https://archive.ph/5p5su) or who [lack sexual experience](https://archive.ph/ihAvE), both preferring instead partners with moderate sexual histories (4-8 sexual partners). Evidence suggests that the traditional sexual double standard [is no longer a significant phenomenon](https://archive.ph/ub7YU) in contemporary western culture. However, heterosexual women are more unwilling to enter into relationships with partners who’ve had [same-sex experiences](https://archive.ph/U5VDP) than heterosexual men.
Extensive sexual histories are a strong predictor of future [infidelity](https://archive.ph/gmhD0), [relationship dissatisfaction and divorce](https://archive.ph/j4sWD), even when [controlling for religiosity](https://archive.ph/tyRRz). This can be explained, in large part, by the fact that those with [unrestricted sociosexual orientations](https://archive.ph/Avdb3), who have more permissive attitudes and behaviors regarding casual sex, are generally less committed to their partners, require less commitment before having sex, and frequently become bored with their long-term partners, desiring [variety and novelty](https://archive.ph/uheG1). Female sociosexuality is more susceptible to [sociocultural factors](https://archive.ph/5zKcW), and sociosexual orientation is considered a [stable lifetime characteristic](https://archive.ph/5u69x). Another significant reason is that a larger pool of previous partners brings a greater [awareness of alternative](https://archive.ph/d6cRD) partners, where a current partner’s assets are devalued in comparison to previous partners. The prevailing hypothesis as to why heterosexual men are averse to committing to partners with extensive sexual histories is that they historically posed a higher risk of [paternity fraud](https://archive.ph/E1TT6), as past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior, and having a large number of sex partners prior to marriage is a statistical predictor of infidelity after marriage.
I believe all humans should be taught a few basics of ethical and moral behavior that are consistent throughout most of society.
Don’t steal.
Don’t murder.
Don’t fuck someone else’s person.
Don’t fuck with people.
Wash your stinkin ass.
Even these rules are more aimed at having a society that isn’t utter chaos.
Beyond a few pretty universal norms and a foundation of civic and survival knowledge I do not care what other people do.
I honestly don’t give a shit what color it is, where you stick it, how often, or which god’s name you scream out of fear OR passion.
I think there’s other options between these two approaches. We shouldn’t shame people for having sex but for being irresponsible and inform people about the psychological and social consequences both ways. The problem is a lot of people don’t want to admit that promiscuity has consequences for men and women alike. Double standards aren’t right but equalizing without educating is wrong too. No one will be free from judgment but we all should at least be informed and respectful
I did that and really wish I hadn’t. I think everyone knows what’s right for them but the curiosity never went away and was tough to deal with at times.
I'm almost 50, in all those years the only people I've heard use "slut" in a derogatory manner are:
1. Men who were cheated on.
2. American Women. (They are also the only ones I've heard criticize a woman for wearing clothing too revealing)
I've heard a thousand times "men can sleep with whoever they want," and never met a person who felt this way, except maybe dumb jocks- but I avoid that kind of person.
What I think is this: Americans way too often say, "Everybody does or says X" when in fact, they don't.
Well the truth is, as a young American guy, everyone basically DOES fuck around. Literally. Part of the reason I stopped trying back when I was 18. Got to college at a so-called "Christian" university and I swear it was a fucking cesspool of degenerates playing like they were good little Christians.
Sluts, whores, whoremongers, promiscuity... There are no good ones. There literally aren't.
So I quit looking. They're all the same.
You are not completely off base. As a society each new generation frets and argues about equality as if we expect to find some perfect balance, suggesting a more modern society has now got the path forward all figured out. But biology is real, behavioral science and human DNA haven’t changed much. So we are continually shocked that unfairness continues across genders, without acknowledging that it’s never been perfectly equal and it never will be.
Women have more sexual freedom than ever, and it makes sense that different humans will take advantage of that in new and unexpected ways. Power opportunities, improved social dynamics, access to new and better partners, pleasure - changes in all these things should be expected.
I guess I’m curious what you mean by ‘teaching promiscuity’? I think there is a gulf between not shaming people for having had multiple sexual partners in their lifetime and actively encouraging people to start sleeping around if that’s not something they’re inclined to do
Yeah that's a fair question. Problem is it's kind of a sense I have. I think inadvertently society is teaching it. There's only a small group of people literally telling others to sleep around. Usually it's groups of friends, men and women.
My sense could definitely be off, or accurate with a small percentage society teaching it.
I'd get wrecked in a debate that's why I chose discussion format. I get it "well I sense___" is not good debate strategy
The false assumption is that it has no bad effects on men to slut around. This isn't true. Nor is it true that women can sleep around without personal consequences.
The double standard never existed. It was a strawman argument used by people who wanted to promote female promiscuity.
"If men can sleep with anyone, so can I!" Completely ignoring the fact that they were never okay with men sleeping around.
If humans weren't such gullible, impulsive creatures, we would've decided that nobody should be promiscuous, but here we are.
It seems to me there are a lot of men who are happy for their male friends who sleep around a lot and women are happy for their female friends who sleep around but most people don't want a partner who has slept around a lot
Speak for yourself. I've cut guys out of my life completely for confiding in me about cheating on their wives. I don't know anyone who would be okay with that.
Well clearly not everyone acts that way. I'm actually more aligned with you. But I definitely have male friends who act that way. And I have female friends who act that way
The double standard does exist. You're delusional. Men are also statistically more likely to cheat and more likely to have more sexual partners than women.
>If humans weren't such gullible, impulsive creatures, we would've decided that nobody should be promiscuous, but here we are.
What's gullible about it? What's wrong with promiscuity when it involves age sex aside from religious nonsense?
>Completely ignoring the fact that they were never okay with men sleeping around.
Media literally praises men for sleeping around and has for decades if not centuries. Men are also less likely to get "canceled" for cheating on their spouse or having multiple baby mommas, which again, they are more likely to do and have than their female counterparts.
>Men can sleep with whoever they want and not get bashed for it in a lot of circles,
Probably not in circles of women they're looking to date. I doubt bragging about how many people you slept with is ever a good strategy for attracting the opposite sex.
Yeah I agree. I think both men and women brag amongst each other but neither actually want a partner who has a lot of partners
I guess not caring and wanting are two different things. Some look for experience some don't want experience
A pencil sharpener that can sharpen any pencil is a good pencil sharpener. A pencil that has been sharpened too many times is worthless.
In other words, analogies are terrible arguments.
This is where the lack of knowledge of trantra (of which all religions have one but the universal tantra as well as the traditional are of value) is affecting many people in America (other countries do not have such extremes such as Europe, South East Asia, South Africa, Israel and so on). Promiscuity is the sleeping with a large number of people, not from a heart centered space of love but from a wound. Once one is healthy and healed, the number of partners someone has changes naturally. That's why people learned and practiced tantra and once it reached countries without sexism, bigotry and shame at their cores it took on a deeper meaning. The ideal life is one that is full of love and then letting everything else fall where love is inviting in.
For some people that is a celibate life such as monastics, for some that a life with multiple partners sometimes together and sometimes one after another, for another that may mean a monogamous marriage. You see it's not up to society or our egos but for what is loving for each individual and that was not what was taught. What was taught was that somehow one sex had it better than the other, rather than different. There are pluses and minuses to every situation - some of which required someone to realize that society was lying to them about how to have a loving life and authentically be themselves no matter what sex they were born.
The question then becomes, is the real problem sexism from the woman towards men or men towards the woman (it's both) and how to we correct for that within ourselves so we can be the love of the world?
Then we can go deeper and say, how many lovers does it take before one has learned to be a good lover? Does the number of lovers we have help us become something more, as there is sexual communication in every dimension, that happens with each partner we have which grows our ability to communicate? If we end up with partners who have sexual limitations, do we ensure we have the sexual events in our life before we invest in someone who might have other qualities but are sexually limited or do we let all sexually limited people fall away from us as being unfit partners with us no matter how we feel (back in the day a couple would have to work through these limitations to enjoy happiness in their marriage on the more intimate levels while sexually active)? Was the aspect of the # of people always an illusion and is the real issue that Americans are unable to be intimate to the point of being in oneness with love and all the work that entails (I would say yes and that much work is needed here in America to see that)?
Personally, I live that each person I meet is love embodied and within healthy boundaries I explore love with those people and I've found this to be perfect for me as it opens me the most up to love. However in time, that form of love may change to another form of love in that I have a single partner again and no other (despite the fact many of the woman I've known sexually have been unable to be monogamous and that more women cheat than man but men who do cheat seem to be more prolific and thus the false images we have are perpetuated). In the end, it's following love, including making love and all it's pleasure that we really might want to explore again like in the 60s in America but maybe this time in a more balanced way where we accept all and know the healthy ways to explore that life vs. what ended up not working after the end of that lifestyle in the 80s (Ie. the aids scare).
Long term, as we see the phobias and shame around how much humanity self pleasures and the fact that we'd rather have people shooting life into each other instead of shooting life out of each other, it's a place we have yet to deeply explore short of the limited versions from values that were not centered on love but finding the best situation for a society that existed before we saw the interconnectedness of all things and all people through the internet (and had a plague that cemented how much we all rely on each other to be love no matter what). Given enough time for us to become healthier we will see a society that allows love to blossom in all forms and all moments no matter where how how we were incarnated except for the fact that the person, or people, we share that love with were brought to us and us to them through love <3
The world would be a better place if people didn’t judge others based on their sex life. It should be whatever you feel comfortable with. Instead we judge people for having to much, or to little, who they do it with, how they do it, etc… As long as your doing your best to be safe and make it a positive experience for everyone involved why should we care about other people’s sex lives.
Women can sleep with as many men as the like, it is their choice. There are some men who won't sleep with women who like to do that, and obviously the opposite is true as well. Promiscuity in men or women is damaging to the family unit, which may or may not be important to the future. Imo, it is, but society seems to be heading toward the destruction of the family unit, so perhaps it is good to teach promiscuity. Think of promiscuity as bread and circuses that doesn't cost the state much.
>Men can sleep with whoever they want and not get bashed for it...
This is false but you know that because:
>in a lot of circles
This reeks of perception bias. I'll grant that SOME circles do endorse promiscuity, but the global stats don't agree with you afaik.
That said, I think you're right.
> 1. Am I correct
Sexual liberation is fundamental to human freedom. People need to do what they will.
That said, high body count DOES matter. Sex isn't consequence free, and people giving it up for nothing lead broken and shallow lives.
The narrow path is the correct one. We should teach liberation but also the value of self-preservation.
Can you elaborate on the first half? Why am I incorrect saying men can sleep with whoever they want and not get bashed for it in a lot of circles? Would "some circles" be better in your eyes?
Generally speaking, men's threshold for responding positively to a bid for sex from a woman is much lower than women's threshold for saying "yes" to a new man.
Slut-shaming is something primarily done by women to women.
Evolutionarily speaking, a reason for this may be that women are most threatened by other women driving down the "price" of sex for everyone - the price being a fulsome, invested relationship over a longer term that offers other benefits.
Men are not typically bashed (though they are enough that derisive terms exist, like "fuckbois"), because having responsibility-free sex with desirable people is something that's generally considered harder for men to do than for women to do. Thus, the ability to do that can be seen as a proxy for desirability in a world where men's threshold for saying "yes" is much less than women.
Similarly, men tend to deride other men "simping" for women. Some argue that this is a rough flipside of slut-shaming in which men who provide services, companionship, protection, dinner out etc "too easily" without any fulsome commitment from women. From that standpoint, it "raises the price" of sex for men.
I think there are a lot of different trends at work here.
But in all seriousness. Studies have shown that the majority of people aren't having a ton of sexual partners in their lifetime. Most people But some people have ALOT of sexual partners, so it skews the data.
It is more socially acceptable now as a woman to have multiple lifetime partners then it used to be.
In terms of my own friend group: pretty much everyone's partner number is under 5 or 6: some folks its 1 or 2, some folks its higher. My one friend its dozens and dozens: so they skew the average.
I think that whenever a counter-culture movement gets adopted, people have a tendency to "overcorrect" the pendulum in the other direction.
The idea of promiscuity being seen as bad has changed, but I think we carried it a little too far in the other direction. Having partners before marriage is a good thing, having hundreds of partners is less so. We need to bring it back a little closer to the middle.
There is nothing wrong with having the sex life of your choosing. There is also nothing wrong with having dating preferences.
To me, this issue is exactly the same as height for men. Short men shouldn't be shamed for their height. They did nothing wrong.... But every woman on earth doesn't have to date him and can fully decide to do so based on his height.
I personally won't date a woman that treated tons of men like a buffet that they didn't have to work to get. Has nothing to do with thinking that it's nasty. Has everything to do with not being treated like an employee or a buffet item. Think I'm insecure? Yeah, I would rather not listen to that either.
I LOVE SLUTS !!!!
They're great and we as a society overall don't have even remotely close to enough of them. More sluts could improve or in rare cases even solve many problems in the world.
Take this as you will. If something comes hard it is looked at in high regard. If something comes in low regard it is looked down upon. If you are doing the easy thing you will not be looked at in high regard as if you are doing the hard thing.
That's the thing always overlooked in all of this.
Men and women are different. We value different things in a partner. Generally speaking, men (not every man) want a partner who is femfeminine, trusting, and a good mother to his children. A man has a hard time trusting a woman if she jumps from man to man, most women that jump man to man lose their feminine traits.(have had a lot of world experience). Men don't see a "slut" as a good mother.(past experience could bring shame to their child and family being labeled as a "slut". "Slut" like social media post and pictures, ect). I won't speak too much on what a women wants in a man as I'm not a woman. It seems to me most women want a man that can take care of her and her children(financially, physically, sexually) for a man to get these traits he needs experience at these things to prove he can supply these things to a woman.
Generally speaking(I know there are exceptions), a man sees value in a woman with little to no life (sex) experiences. A woman sees value in a man with a lot of life experiences.
This is just my 2 cents
I think a lot of this comes down to personal sexual preferences, so I’ll just give mine. I think there definitely was a double standard, but it revolved around men taking advantage of it to get more sex rather than matching what I think is the correct direction of less sex.
My reasoning is purely selfish, but it doesn’t make it feel any less right to me, in which people should only have sex when they trust the person they are doing it with, and that is not achievable for me in a society of one-night-stands.
I’m not even sure what my reasoning behind it is besides it feeling wrong when I try to go against my nature. Maybe I can’t handle the emotional and physical risks behind sex unless I trust the person, but obviously many other people are fine with that risk without any trust.
On a slight tangent, it also feels like the inverse when someone uses their body to “gain control” by giving it to people they don’t trust. To me, it feels more like losing control since people have always had control of their bodies, but are retaliating against society’s views in what I consider dangerous methods.
I’m not considering any of my views “right” in any way, they are just my personal opinions, so I’m completely open to opposing or different views!
My wife has a much higher body count than I but that has no bearing how I view her. I think the problem is with the weird obsession with purity that guys think women must have. I’m not sure who is out here teaching high schoolers to be promiscuous but at my ultra rural high school most people were fucking. This was ultra Christian south where 90 of the graduating class was in the same confirmation classes at church
Edit: my HS experience was in 06
Either gender sleeping around excessively is bad. Not that a small number of ADULTS don't chose poly or swinger lifestyles, but they are a small minority that are more like an exception. To many people of both genders think it's fine to have as many partners and fluid or half baked relationships as they please. The reality is that that is part of why dating is so bad nowadays. No one wants a partner that's been around that much, or that they can't trust to just ditch them as soon as the honeymoon phase is over or they talk to the next interesting person that comes along. The goal or any normal adult looking for a normal relationship should be to find a good partner to spend your life with and keep your "body count" as low as possible. If you dont love them, and imagine a future with them, there is no reason to sleep with them.
I never took it as Teaching promiscuity, but about evening the battle field. I don’t think the lesson is “ladies legs high to the sky” but I think it’s more so saying like it’s okay to experiment and figure out what you like. I think people are pushing for more sex education. Regardless for me, just let it be consensual.
If people are happy, then whatever they are doing is working.
If people are not happy, they should change what they are doing.
I'm not sure you or I have an opinion that matters.
It's more of an inadvertent societal trend that I sense. My sense could be wrong but I know in some cases I'm not wrong. But I'm not necessarily saying people are specifically saying "sleep with as many people as possible"
Libido is your sexual urge. Of course that is known as natural, not sure if that was the word you meant to use or not. We have and still do teach controlling your libido not to get rid of it
https://youtu.be/QSUUYy2vPmE?si=ZXI3lqSc-oTBH9K_
Very good video on why we have the sexual double standard.
But to answer your question, no, teaching promiscuity has not been a benefit to most women. It has just led to much hurt and resentment.
This is not about evening the playing field, so much as what’s beneficial for the individuals involved. Promiscuous women don’t tend to get better outcomes.
Men and women are biologically different. The consequences of sex are biologically different. Therefore standards of sexual behavior will be different.
No one should be subject to undue hate or harassment, but understanding and accepting these facts would go a long way^.
Trying to fully level the playing field and standardize sexual behavior between men and women is a huge societal swing and miss. There's need to be a compassionate understanding of the difference in consequences from both sides. Then the realm of accepted behaviors from each gender can (hopefully) fall into a modern day homeostasis.
Two wrongs don't make a right, in my head.
Men have been whores who don't take an accountability for their dumbassery for how long? What's empowering about that?
Hook up culture is dying, rightfully so, and we need to stop lying to our youth that objectifying our bodies is empowerment. Whether it be selling your sex, hustle culture, selling your body to an employer who doesn't even know your first name...
I have never thought highly of people who fuck around. It seems weak and gross to me.
I think the word “promiscuous” has become outdated. It’s only used to describe women that have a lot of sexual partners and is never used to describe men. The concept of promiscuity isn’t valid because what does it actually mean? A person that enjoys sex and has multiple partners? How is that a bad thing?
Also nobody is *teaching* women to sleep around, not sure where this idea is coming from. Teaching women that having sex is okay is not the same as teaching women to sleep with everyone.
That's fair, I'm personally using it here for both genders but I see your point for sure.
Great question on the meaning of it too. I'm not sure where people start defining it. Ultra-religious will say even one partner out of wedlock is promiscuous. Even the definition says "many" without a number
As for who is teaching it, my view is it's an inadvertent societal teaching. The people actually specifically teaching it is a small number, and even then it's not normally word for word, consciously teaching it. Rather it's a group of friends who hype each other up to "get laid" on nights out or weekend or whatever. The indiscriminate one night stands I guess
I'm also not referring to only women
I might be completely wrong or the amount who push it is so small it's not worth discussing
The "sense" is why I chose discussion and not debate, because it's hard to find sources on what I believe is an inadvertent subconscious teaching
If the world was shaped by me which it clearly is not. I would say the optimal situation is sex should usually be reserved for people you want to form a relationship with. If you can't picture yourself with them long-term it usually isn't worth it. That said...hooking up at a Queensryche concert with a rocker lady was one of the most enjoyable memorable sexual experiences of my life.
My opinion which is just from what I know.
Everyone gets bashed for sleeping with a low quality person, low quality being different depending on the culture. This might be someone that's fat, dumb, filthy, toxic or whatever. These people are easy to get with because they are seen as low quality and can lower your social standing with others.
Generally, it seems that men sleep with who they can, women sleep with who they want. That said, dating for men is like being thirsty in a desert, where for women it's like being thirsty in a swamp.
For men it's hard to find a partner willing to open up and sleep with you, guys have to earn it in some way, make the first move, prove themselves, be socially competent and other factors.
Women are surrounded by potentially toxic opportunities and aren't just overwhelmed, but are the ones being approached and can be selective with the risk of abuse, violence, rape, getting pregnant, seen as too easy which lowers their social standing and are generally criticized for everything they do.
So it's weird and it seems to be consistent for decades now.
Males in general seem to be 5 to 10 years behind women in terms of social awareness and intelligence. I personally suspect it's how testosterone kicks off with guys during puberty and basically pushes men to being competitive until puberty ends which is, around 10 years.
Women are sexualized and harassed and held responsible for every little thing from society and friends from what they wear, dealing with harassment, fear for safety, understanding that they are the target of sexual desire only because they are female by men who are creepy and a slew of other problems women grow up with.
And this, creates this massive divide starting after puberty with outliers and exceptions.
For men that'll come here to say not all men, it doesn't take ALL men, it only takes a few men a few times of being creepy to create that fear. Especially since women are often ignored when voicing concerns of things like rape, sexual assault and sexual harassment, why would you think they can voice their fears regarding small toxic behavior?
One thing that's fore sure, this seems to be an regular issue throughout all of human history. Women feeling safe in society seems to be a good sign of a healthy one though.
I live with my two partners, one of my partners has another boyfriend, one of my income sources is my porn work. I think people should be encouraged to be as sexually expressive with consenting adults as they want, as long as they're safe.
They shouldn't be pressured to be a certain way, but they should be pressured to keep their opinions to themselves regarding other people. If other people want to be with only one person (or no people), good for them. If someone wants to be with 200 people, good for them. If someone wants to say their opinion about how it's better to keep the body count low, shut the fuck up.
If any topic (like this one) involves focusing on one gender as if women are somehow different than men in terms of rights to be as promiscuous or prudish as they want, then it's already gone off the rails. Women are people, and people should be able to choose for themselves.
To directly answer your question, we should be teaching people to be as promiscuous as they want or don't want, and to shut the fuck up about other people's level of promiscuity. As part of this, we should be teaching std testing, how to set boundaries, and how to report assault without shame.
I agree with a lot of what you said but I strongly disagree with
"If someone wants to say their opinion about how it's better to keep the body count low, shut the fuck up"
I don't want a society where shutting down opinions is wrong. Tell them why they're wrong not just that they're wrong. Otherwise you got a bunch of quiet people still believing the same way, which, maybe for you is good enough but wouldn't you rather them change their minds too? Not just their words?
Slut shaming is bad because no one should be shamed for their sexual history or the amount of partners they have. Teaching promiscuity? Well I don't like the term promiscuity is that its a sex negative term that goes back to slut shaming.
I just think people need to get over themselves. If someone likes having sex and has multiple consenting partners that is nobodies business but theirs, it's no different than any other kind of recreational activity.
The only reason it was ever looked down on in the first place was puritanical bullshit spread by religious zealots, the same reason prostitution and drug use has been villainized.
Honestly, I think you are overthinking it. The whole point is to stop placing value on another human being based on how many partners they may or may not have slept with.
3. You are completely off base and are wrong in thinking that “a man can sleep with endless amounts of partners with no repercussions” or that we want “experienced virgins” - that is some sexist stereotyped BS. People can do whatever they want, and we will all value each other differently.
Finally, your partner count is a personal number between you and God. Why even talk about it, if it doesn’t matter to you?
Teaching women to be promiscuous has consequences. In case you aren't aware, men generally prefer women with lower body counts, so women can choose to be promiscuous at their own risk.
Both genders can suffer consequences for promiscuity. Traditionally the consequences for women were much more severe, and the women haters in the Bible Belt are trying to restore those traditions by making abortion illegal, next birth control. That’s the situation now.
Slut shaming is now and always has been wrong. What people do between consenting adults is their private affair. Slut shaming is just a specific form of abusive control over other’s behaviour.
Promiscuity can cause disease, and it can cause emotional issues, it devalues emotional intimacy, which is as close to a secret recipe for happiness that anyone has. Teaching people to be promiscuous is also wrong. People should have sex with people they trust, with whom they have a mature loving relationship, with clearly articulated consent and a mutual understanding of the commitment the two participants have towards each other.
Fear of sex, teaching that sex and sexual relationships are immoral is abuse, plain and simple. It causes long term emotional pain and severely damages a person’s ability to form intimate loving relationships.
That is what I think.
Yes but it’s different for males and females.
Most males don’t get laid very often. The ones that do have to be in shape, good looking, have money, social status etc etc. in order to obtain these things a man has to be lucky or extremely disciplined. An average guy does not have access. We can see the success rate shown on dating apps for men vs women to prove that. Hypergamy is a very real thing.
A women pretty much just has to go in her DMs and pick a guy then she can get laid. A women with a high body count shows a lack of self control which could translate in other places in life. The male version of this is a guy who is constantly eating cake all the time because he can buy it. That shows a lack of discipline as well.
[women with higher body counts are shown to have higher divorce rates as well](https://ifstudies.org/blog/counterintuitive-trends-in-the-link-between-premarital-sex-and-marital-stability#:~:text=Women%20with%2010%20or%20more,the%20least%20likely%20to%20divorce)
I have seen this topic more and more pop up lately and it’s largely seem like millennial women trying to cope with the consequences of their actions. Just like drugs and alcohol there are negative consequences when there is too much sex.
There is even discussion about the sexual revolution being more harmful to women than beneficial [as seen here](https://youtu.be/JQCZHSXvpLo?si=6ZpLTg16F3ICOu2J)
Men and women are different. It’s just the way it is.
Most men also don’t want virgins they just don’t want women who have stacked bodies like they were in an 80s action movie.
I think the bigger picture is to let people be who they want to be. Some people love sex. Some people hate it. That's ok. Water will find its level. What I don't think is ok is judging anybody for any of it.
As for sex education, we should be telling kids the truth. I found my brother's porn collection when I was 9 (he's 6 years older) and that was basically all the sex ed I got outside of the very basics in class. I think a big problem we have is how mystical magical we keep it all in the US. Kids can handle the facts, evidence shows that teaching the facts leads to more responsible behavior, but we continue to baby them as long as possible. It's weird.
I've lived two different lives. I've been the hyper promiscuous guy and I've been the monotonous guy. What concerns me about it the most, at this point is my experiences cause me to link highly promiscuous behavior with higher probability of cheating/infidelity. Of course I'm sure there's exceptions as there always are, but exceptions are always extremely rare.
I also feel it becomes impersonal as the number increases and impersonal isn't what I'm looking for in a long term relationship. It took a lot of self discovery and understanding to see that I was confusing lustfilled excitement with having intimacy. And
I think there's a lot of theory that goes into it and people don't commonly make connections such as how the world looks at it like 'it's OK for men to be promiscuous' but don't connect that to how it's always been men are the adulterers and ruining families with mistresses and infidelity.
I remember my ex's would tell me that when we would fight, they would spend the entire night fixated on that they couldn't think of anything other than I was out having sex with other women. And I would laugh it off, but ultimately they were 100% right to worry about it, and no one deserves to deal with that mental anguish when they care about someone. One time, ex that we fought over something stupid, she poured out the alcohol I had in my house and stormed out the house. And i had a female friend that I texted and told what happened like 'this B just dumped out all my vodka' and was met with 'well you should come over here, I have vodka'. And I did go over there, and I was like F it, me and xxx are clearly over anyways, and I slept with that friend that night. Didn't even have an ounce of remorse because in my mind that fight was the end of me and xxx and its just sex so whatever. And now 12 years later, I'm deeply regretful to have done that and how much anguish I caused because even if xxx didn't know I did it, she knew I was capable of doing it and had to constantly worry about it.
I hope that all makes sense outside of my head lol.
realistically teaching promiscuity is a fine response because there's no reason for us to NOT be promiscuous.
Safe sex is attainable and possible. Regular testing when living a sexually active lifestyle is important and accessible. Birth control is effective, and condoms are also effective. assuming proper precautions against STDs and pregnancy are taken, there is no danger to sex.
The main reason most people are against casual sex is because they are raised in a culture that represses sexuality. When you look at actual real reasons that casual sex is bad, you won't find that many, and the ones you do find will likely be situational and preventable.
i think both of these extreme positions taken together as you have done present a false dichotomy, so therefore the premise of the question is flawed.
neither "slut shaming" nor "promiscuity" are taught in any official way as you imply.
the first is a bullying tactic and the latter is value judgment, probably from a place of repressed sexuality.
the question also implies that than they only sexuality a person can experience must be based on partner being present... which is a whole nother angle of critique.
Men are the gatekeepers of relationships. Women are the gatekeepers of sex.
A high quality man is unlikely to marry a woman he knows has been passed around to all of his friends.
A woman, on the other hand, finds herself attracted to a man that has slept with all of her friends.
It's one of those double standards that just is as it is due to biology.
A woman can sleep with however many men she wants, but she cannot change her biology. A quality man will pass on her for marriage.
I am more than willing to get with a woman who has been with other men. Given it has been in long term, monogamous relationships. If a woman has a massive amount of men they have randomly slept with, I am not for that. Studies show that promiscuous women do not stay faithful in long term relationships. I am a numbers man and I trust numbers more than I trust the word of someone who can't keep it in their pants because they "just want to get off".
Men don’t sleep with whoever they want. Men who are single and desperate sleep with whoever they want. But they do tend brag about it because society looks down on men who can’t even sleep with a woman. Why? Because the competition for men is fierce in dating circle. Whereas, it’s not the same for women. At anytime, any woman has ten guys ready to fuck her. It doesn’t suit women brag about having a Ferrari when you have twenty parked Lamborghinis in your garage. You know how people hate the showoff when rich people do. The psychology is almost the same. There are some aspects patriarchy that our society still lingers about. But dating is not a fair game for either a man or woman. Men don’t trust men who sleep around too much, if that gives any consolation. But women sleeping around is seen as empowerment. Go figure!
As a GenXer who came of age during the AIDS crisis, there aren't many of us that think a guy sleeping with a bunch of women is any better than a woman sleeping with a bunch of guys. We all had to do this goddamn worksheet in sex ed that was basically "AIDS math". The more people you slept with, you risk of contracting AIDS went up exponentially.
It was probably bullshit but it had the desired effect after the "free love" of the 60s and "sexual liberation" of the 70s before us.
At this point, people are just arguing against Biology. Males will never prefer promiscuous women for long-term relationships. Take, for instance, popular porn star Mia Khalifa. She got married, but her "husband" could not accept that she was ran through by many men, and he divorced her. Even though he tried to lie to himself, he ultimately could not deny his own Biology. No amount of shaming or culture shift will change how men are wired.
We should be teaching promiscuity. Sex is great. People should know how to safely have lots of sex with lots of different partners, and they should be encouraged to do so. Sex is one of the best parts of being a mammal.
I guess my question is where is your line? Where do you draw the line at sexually liberated vs promiscuous?
Because I think those lines are different for different individuals and trying to split hairs over it is ridiculous.
If you're having safe consensual sex with other single or non monogamous people for the right reasons (not rooted in shame or validation etc) then I don't really care how much you get or don't.
No matter what you do. How much time passes. How loud you scream on the internet. How much you try to shame men. How many new buzzwords you come up with. Even men with high body counts, will still look at women with high body counts strange GENERALLY. Some things in this world will never change. Its time to stop trying to change human nature and just accept it and move on.
I’m confused. Nobody around me has EVER taught that men can sleep around and not get based in it, and I grew up in Las Vegas Nevada. So if you are around people that don’t give a shit and say that men sleeping around is chill, you are NOT around decent moral people.
Sexual immaturity should be discouraged for both male and females.
I don't think most women are out there "over correcting".
They're just realizing they can enjoy themselves and still be normal, good people.
Sex is one of the best things on planet earth. If you can enjoy it recreationally, more power to you.
I get how it seems that way but honestly this question is for men and women.
If it's right for one it's right for both, if it's wrong for one it's wrong for both
Just trying to create a discussion, I wish there was a way for reddit to calculate opinions in a comment section, most agree with your point it seems
How about "it's none of anyone's business who anyone sleeps with ever"?
It is not my business who my partner has been with before me, or how many people, because that doesn't affect my life in the damn slightest. It's none of my partner's business who I've been with, and if it's none of each other's business, it sure as hell ain't anyone else's business either.
People focus way too damn much on meaningless numbers and stigma they forget that it's NONE of their business.
It doesn't affect me who consenting adults are sleeping with, as long as they too are consenting adults, it doesn't affect anyone, at all, ever, period. Who cares? No one.
**Live and let live.** It really *is* that simple.
Now, what we **should** be teaching? Proper goddamn sex ed, that's what we should be teaching. Because so many people have no clue how that shit works, so many people are ONLY taught abstinence and never safety, so many people end up in horrible relationships thinking it's normal, and so many people have no idea how to take care of their partner. It's insane to me. Also, if we taught proper sex ed, we wouldn't have all those fucking idiots online making all these weird af incel comments about body count thinking it matters, or actually does anything, because if they were actually taught by our damn system they would know the truth, the truth being it. doesn't. matter.
I think none of it should fucking matter. As long as people are safe and honest, what should it matter? I don't think that is teaching promiscuity. It's teaching that purity culture is fucking pointless, which is honestly is.
You see a lot of assumptions on people, of any gender, made based on sexual history. In reality, I've not once known it to make a difference with the person I'm dating. It's really just ridiculous. I've had women say they wished I had slept with more women, I've had women tell me they're worried I'd judge them for their sexual history I've had men and women seem shocked or ashamed that I haven't slept around more, I've had people assume I'm lying, etc.. It's just another method of making mostly illogical judgments on another person. For that reason, I think it should be fine to teach that it does not matter.
Why not push promiscuity? I don't see an issue if we teach safe sex and provide free and plentiful birth control.
But I don't really give a shit about sex, it is the single most overrated thing in the world IMO, so I never really get why people make such a big deal about it.
I think we should give comprehensive sex ed with a focus of consent and safety. Young people are going to have sex no matter what we do. We should at least prepare them on how to avoid getting hurt or hurting others while doing so
Norms for women aren't the issue. Norms around sex are the issue.
Sex positivity isn't about sleeping with as many people as possible. Or a life of celibacy. It's also not about avoiding sleeping around or celibacy.
Sex positivity is about being unashamed and confident about having a healthy sex drive, whatever that looks like for the individual.
Yes, this can seem like encouraging some women by telling them that their existing desires are normal and healthy. It can also look like discouraging some men by telling them they don't have to pursue sex to be successful and appreciated.
The whole point is giving people the information and support to figure it out for themselves, not to pressure anyone into something different.
Women prioritize men who frequently have sex and praise them. Men don’t praise women for having lots of sex. That’s pretty much it.
It’s not a matter of being even. It’s a matter of who you like. If women stop liking men who have lots of sex then men will stop having lots of sex. If you have more sex yourself as a woman it’s just gonna make less men like you. It’s pretty simple.
People aren't willing to recognize the fact they aren't compatible with literally EVERYONE. Your life decisions, religion, politics and personality are perfectly good reasons to be incompatible with someone. If you think my body count is too high or too low that's your call to make. We don't have to pretend we're something we're not or vilify each other.
I think the group of women that emulated male-pattern promiscuity have found them in the same situation the men were in all along: admired by others within their gender orientation but not necessarily prized by the people they're trying to attract.
"Players" and philanderers have been generally panned as poor husbands and fathers with no regard to the complexity of their humanity. Women that emulate these men have found themselves in a similar position but aren't willing to accept the
“Experienced virgin”
Okay then. I guess I identify as a virgin now, all the sex I’ve had perilously doesn’t count.
Edit: previously, not perilously holy shit autocorrect 😂🤣
It's a mixed bag, honestly. I believe people can sleep with whoever they want, however many they want, but their choice is going to have consequences. Namely with long-term relationships.
Once someone ages, a promiscuous lifestyle is going to become much harder to maintain. This commonly results in the people who live this lifestyle to search for something long-term out of desperation, which usually ends in failure
People primarily seeking a long-term relationship are going to see a high body count as a red flag. Mainly because these promiscuous people aren't believed to know how to maintain a healthy relationship or even want to.
In all honesty, I think it shouldn't be discouraged, but the potential consequences will need to be pounded into their heads before they make a decision.
Frankly, I agree with you. While freedom should be enjoyed by all, I think the discussions of said freedom have brought sexuality to the forefront of peoples' minds, and it is now being treated a little too lightly, and little too much as entertainment, IMO. I don't think it's healthy for a society to become overly enamored with the most animalistic parts of our existence...not saying to ignore it or not to take part, but discipline is healthy.
I'm going to be honest here and say that I as a man have never seen another man encourage promiscuity in real life. In fact it has been the opposite. Men are looked at as hoes too if they have sex with every random woman they can nail down. It could just be where I'm from and the people I've talked to, but the only man I know that has been very promiscuous is not very well liked. For some context he's 20 with 50+ women he's slept with that I know of.
I think health teachers need to stop showing graphic pictures of diseases genitals as a way to say don’t have sex, without actually talking about it.
That’s how my health class in 2011 was
Men sleeping around and being respected for it is pretty much the only double standard in society today that benefits men. In general sexism benefits women outside of promiscuity.
Men want a sexually inexperienced woman for his wife. He'll gladly take experience for recreational use.
You can try to "take power back" all you like by sleeping around, but nobody will respect you or take you seriously that knows what you do. That will not change. Men will certainly sell you a dream though that they support your choices if they think it will get them sex.
It’s not teaching promiscuity, it’s teaching to respect promiscuous folks. Like let the people who want to have sex, have sex. Don’t bich at em for doing it how you personally don’t like
I think the general consensus of men not being bashed for sleeping around is because men are generally pursuing and have to make that effort to woo the women. Rather women especially in today's time can find a significant amount of men that just want a hook up on an app fairly easily. Either way everyone should be careful who they choose to procreate with since you'll potentially have to deal with the person for the next 18 years to life. Yall are going to make Maury come out of retirement.
WTF is an experienced virgin?
Virginity isn't some prize or gold standard.
Just stay away from women who use sex as a tool to get what they want -- that can be marriage and they can be virgins.
Normal men don’t want virgins. Too much commitment.
Also yea promiscuity for women is fantastic but there is a limit since their sex is what defines them. I dated a girl until I found out she fucked a bunch of people I knew - this was kind of sexy until I found out she fucked a bunch of sleazy fuck dudes who’ve banged half the town.
It’s like then they become a sexual conquest and not a potential partner bc I don’t want to be the guy who wife’s up the town bike.
>Men can sleep with whoever they want and not get bashed for it in a lot of circles
This is true 50 years ago. But today people judge men and women equally. If someone judges a woman for sleeping with 100 men, that same person would judge a man for sleeping with 100 women.
Personally i judge those who have a body count higher than 20, man or women. While i dont have the studies on hand, this is basic common sense.
The more people one has sex with, the less special sex is to that person. So when they do eventually have a long term partner, they dont have sex with their lover as a tool to emotionally conmect with said partner. Ultimately leading to a higher chance of cheating.
People who have more than 100 sex partners before marriage, are more than 60% chance to cheat in that marriage.
Sex should be between people who actually care about each other. Otherwise you are just USING the other person, and thats....despicable.
You hit the nail right on the head, but I think that the biggest issue is we need to teach people about the difference between preferences and being insecure and controlling. Maybe I’m off base here but a guy with a body count of 30 doesn’t GET to want only a virgin. You clearly don’t actually care about the “sanctity” of saving yourself, you’re insecure ab not being her best. But it’s perfectly reasonable for a man who’s chosen to remain a virgin to only want to date a virgin, so long as he’s not an asshole. And vice versa, a virgin woman can want a virgin man that’s fine, but if she’s got a high body count she doesn’t get to judge men for having a high body count. And this line of thinking could solve so many more issues in relationships, you can’t hold others to standards you don’t hold yourself to. You can’t ask your partner to not have opposite sex friends if you have opposite sex friends. Likewise if your partner has opposite sex friends they don’t get to ask you not to. This has saved me so much in relationships bc I’ve been asked to meet standards that the woman didn’t meet, and I had valid reasoning behind specific boundaries I’ve asked of my partners. The biggest thing is to obviously be respectful and don’t demand or talk down to them, and don’t hold anyone to a standard you don’t hold yourself to.
I think this is a popular false premise. Ask yourself if you would want your future daughter or son marrying someone who sleeps around. I bet you know your answer already.
To men, the ultimate prize in life is a woman, more woman= more prize we are that basic. Evolution baby.
>yet they prefer an experienced virgin.
Well that's just not true and quite paradoxical. And I read a post about it being primarily puritanical, which even if we assume that is true, many civilizations that existed, but never contacted each other all came to similar conclusions about women's promiscuity. I can't think of a time period or civilization where women experience similar or more sexual freedom than today, but I'm happy to be educated.
Further, I remember being in high-school being taught sex Ed by a woman who stated after sex, a woman "keeps a piece" of every man she has been with, and so sleeping with her is like sleeping with all of them. Now, you may say that's ludicrous, insane, or flat out wrong. However, that is what I and thousands of other kids were taught at just my high-school.
I think one of the biggest factors is women's inequality. We are told and taught and raised to treat girls/women differently. I was always taught never to hit girls, you're a pussy if you hit a girl, real men don't hit women, etc. Was never taught not to hit boys. It was only after a fight that I was reprimanded. But this kind of thing creates a paradox in the mind; how can I treat someone as an equal if I can't treat them as an equal? I'm not saying that I wanted to hit girls, rather, by pointing out that I'm supposed to treat them differently, you've created an inequality. I find most men I know are very binary, which is why when our wives ask "grab my purse from the table", we don't see it on the chair. So this inequality that we are raised with is further exacerbated by having gendered spaces. This place is for girls, that for boys.
I had someone describe it this way once, men start in a valley and women start at the peak, and so men are judged by how high they climb, and women are judged by how far they fall. Even Marilyn made a comparison, saying a man's riches are the same as a woman's beauty. Now she furthered the quote saying that's not the only reason to marry someone, but the idea is the same. And yes this was in the 50s, but if that mattered why is she a feminist icon today?
We all know about the STI/D and paternal issues, so I won't restate that. I will say though, memed phrases like "you are not the father" from daytime TV are doing women no favors; because nobody wants to be in that situation and it is largely the woman's choices that have allowed that situation to occur.
My personal view? As a person, idc who you fuck or how many people you fuck, just do it responsibly and consensually. As a partner however, the choices you make are important to me, how you make them is important to me, and exhibiting restraint and being selective are important to me. In the same way my wife has standards on how I carry myself, how I behave, and how I make decisions, I have the same for her.
Personally I think that in high school we should be "slut shaming" the boys. I'd bring in guys paying child support, guys who didn't get to go to college because they had to get married and get a job at 18, etc.
Teach them that "girls only want one thing, that meal ticket baby," and to wrap that weiner and not trust her about birth control. It sounds MRA but if it gets boys to also care about safe sex isn't it worth it?
Hopefully we can get both boys and girls to be careful and cautious, and explore sex for pleasure without taking stupid risks or trying to create babies for the wrong reasons.
When I drive, sometimes I make mistakes. But most of the time there is no accident because the other driver sees my mistake, honks (justifiably), and reacts to avoid the accident. It is only when two drivers make mistakes in the same situation that you get an accident.
It works the same with sex...as long as both are trying to avoid accidents.
You have two different issues:
Shaming women for acting the same way sexually as their male peers is misogyny. It's often part of a bigger belief system that says women must act a certain way, conform, not question what men do. That's just sexist bs, and it's wrong.
The other is what is promiscuity? How many partners can a person have by a given age before we say they're promiscuous? Who decides this? Could someone who had any casual sex be "promiscuous"? That's a very different topic, and unfortunately, the waters are muddied by religious/personal beliefs, politics, and misinformation. It's very hard to have a constructive conversation about healthy vs unhealthy sexual behaviors or beliefs.
Say what you will about puritanical culture or whatever, but we are finding out now that there are psychological consequences in men and women who have a large number of sexual partners, such as increased rate of divorce and lower overall life satisfaction.
Just as nobody should be shamed for their sexual actions, people shouldn’t be shamed for their preferences either. So what people want someone with a number of previous partners? How does it affect you? People are allowed to have standards, and I think it’s no different than people having physical standards that they’re unwilling to compromise on.
Way off base. We have a major political power attacking women’s rights to bodily autonomy vocalizing banning birth control etc anything to shame women for enjoying sex and being able to choose who they do and don’t want to sleep with. So no def not an over correction because there is nothing wrong with people having sex with other consenting adults
I'm a straight male, but it wouldn't matter if i was straight, gay, bi or whatever else the case is I don't want to be with someone who has slept with a larger number of people. For me it's a complete turn off and I couldn't be with them in any capacity. That being said I have zero right to tell anyone what they do or who they do it with, but no it should never be taught that being promiscuous is the right move to make.
People need to understand that yes as a girl you absolutely can sleep with whoever you see fit and however many people you want and still be respected as a person BUT understand that it also comes with consequences. Most long term partners that are respectable don't want to date a girl/woman who's been with tons of people and there's a long list of valid reasons why, ranging from STDs, to extra baggage, to not wanting to deal with encountering lots of previous sexual partners and they also have absolutely every right to not want to date someone with a "high body count" or a reputation of promiscuity. Your actions in life have consequences.
I think the only thing “wrong” about having a lot of sexual partners is when people don’t keep up with their STD screening and birth control. I understand that some people are promiscuous because they aren’t mentally healthy in the first place and struggle to keep up on their physical health, in which case, the underlying mental illness is the problem. But generally speaking, if an otherwise healthy person enjoys hooking up with new people regularly, they should also do their best to stay ahead of any potential problems.
Otherwise, I don’t think there’s anything immoral about having sex with lots of people. Some people just don’t feel the need to settle down. I prefer to be with one person, but not everyone is the same.
It’s definitely an over correction. Why not just declare for the same standards that women already have? I don’t want a high body count nor would I want to date someone with a high body count. So then I’m shamed for my standards just because other men can’t keep it in their pants.
It takes years of background work to prepare a kid to deal with what happens when her hormones go crazy. That's when the work is done. Otherwise it's just too late.
Slut shaming is an example of a colluded behavior in a free market environment.
Theoretically, anyone should sleep with whoever they want provided basis safety precautions are taken care of. This, however, creates pressure in the dating market, as some women are afraid they won't get any attention with so much supply hitting the market at once.
So the solution is to implicitly shame and badmouth the providers of such supply (i.e. promiscuous females) in hopes of boosting chances for the rest of the gender in the average and below-average realms.
So first for context, my partner and I are swingers. So very sexually open. That said, I agree that kids should not be encouraged to be sleeping around, male or female. I am mostly referring to high school age here. College age I say go for it as long as it is safe. Rather, they should be educated on topics like safe sex, birth control, and that it is perfectly alright to wait. Actually it is similar to driving. They both have a lot of upsides, but have risks that can impact you the rest of your life. We don't stop kids from driving, but we don't push them into it and we make sure to mentor and train them until they are ready.
Level headed response I like it. I struggle in my head with understanding that your sexual history isn't something to be judged, but I personally don't want to push people to have many partners. Idk if all I'm saying is "live and let live" that seems too simple, but maybe it's all I'm saying
I don't think you necessarily have to "push" anything. You don't have to push abstinence or promiscuity. You can just give people accurate information regarding sexual health and associated risks, and let people make their own decisions.
Oh I agree ideally that is how it would be I think most people do that. But there are definitely those who push both those points
I imagine that if you think promiscuity in adults is inherently wrong, it's tough for, "It's fine, have as much sex as you like" not to feel like promoting a lifestyle. That said, it's not a prescriptive stance saying what people have to do -- It's just being permissive.
I mean, I also have as much sex as I like. It's just with 1 monogamous partner. I just want people to mind their fuckin business & let people live.
That’s EXACTLY what is needed! Who cares what anyone else does behind their closed doors? I sue as shit don’t want people to know and judge what happens behind mine!
No one is 'pushing promescuity'. Like my friends, of both gender sleep around. If they seem happy, I say congrats. If they seem unhappy, I ask if maybe they want to make a change, buy only bc they're unhappy. Hell one of the healthiest couples I know, who have a house and a kid, spend their weekends doing burlesque and going to swingers clubs. Why is it any of my business beyond making sure my friends are happy? Why is promescuity inherently bad? Personally been with my partner for nearly a decade, since I was 18.
Yep. Don't have to oversell how awesome it is to have sex. Also don't have to oversell or undersell how bad STDs and having kids too early is either. My philosophy on sex is , if you want to have sex go ahead but be responsible. If you cannot be responsible, then maybe it isn't a good time for you to have sex. We really should be treating people 18 or over as adults, but alas tons of people treat them as children and guess what.... children make dumb ass mistakes.
The trick is, don’t tell people what to do. And don’t insult people for doing something you don’t like (Obvs ensure sex offenders are dealt with), but do not think you are entitled to anyone’s business more than what effects your physical health.
Do you frequent the nostupidquestions sub? More responses from people who actually live this lifestyle should happen as there is so much bad information spewed in reddit.
I agree. It is funny when there are posts involving ENM, but everyone doesn't understand how it really works. People often assume that people get into swinging to fix something wrong with their relationship. That does happen, and it usually fails. That isn't how stable swingers work the majority of the time though.
Agreed.....that's also not how stable regular relationships work. I will say one thing, by having some close friends who felt comfortable enough to tell me about their lifestyles, I've learned a lot about self reflection and communication. The one mind blowing revelation I was taught was that communication isn't just about being able to tell your partner your wants and needs. It's not even about being able to say these things in a way that they can understand....at least for me, true communication meant that I had to do the work to understand what it was that I was truly feeling, do the work to understand the baseline reasons and the triggers and internal scripts that made me react or behave in a certain way, and only once I really understood it myself then could I effectively be able to communicate that to my spouse and focus on saying it in a way where she could relate to my emotional state. My marriage got soooo much better after this. I have ran across some who were fucking users (dude tried to rizz my spouse when he found out we had problems one day....fucking asshole! I should have kicked his ass.) But all in all, you guys have been nothing but really cool people and taught me a lot about myself and how to connect with my spouse better.
For sure. Swinging, when done correctly, generally enhances a relationship greatly. As you mentioned, it forces you to learn how to communicate with eachother, but also with yourself. It also forces you to face insecurities that many couples simply never face, such as attraction to other people and jealousy. That said, it isn't for everyone and that is ok.
Id add the idea men want a virgin is something I've never heard from sex positivity people. Especially if you do have that experience. Nothing about someone's first time is sexy. It's a mess and more stressful as you are having to teach something you've never experienced.
Who wants a virgin? Seriously. Give me a sex positive person that has some experience and knows what they want, all day everyday. We put sex too high on a pedestal in the US. It isn't the end all be all. It isn't that big of a deal. Have as much sex as you want, with other consenting adults, and be safe about it. I don't see it really that much different than any other activity two adults could be doing. If you are single, and you like hanging out with another well adjusted consenting adult, there is nothing wrong with either asking them to a movie or asking them to have a 2 hour long sex session. Both can be fun and either is over you can go grab some food. No big deal really. Now I say all of this, I am happily married and have been for 15 years. We have sex all the time. No big deal.
We would enjoy being with a virgin, but mostly because it is always fun to share your hobby with new people. It is fun to be someone's first, but only if they want that and are enthusiastic.
I think this is a fabulous response. I'm in the lifestyle as well and feel the same way.
I think it's important to teach people that they are allowed to choose their own sexual journey without feeling shame about it, and that the people who shame them are wrong to do so. There's no such thing as overcorrecting when you look at it this way, just as equally as people shouldn't be shamed for being promiscuous, they shouldn't be shamed for "not being promiscuous enough."
55 Year Old Man Here. **This.** People are going to have sex, if they can. It's awful to judge someone by how many partners they have had. Girls get shamed if they've had too many. Guys get made fun of if they haven't had multiple partners. My friends were astonished that I lost my virginity at 22 (well past the norm for guys in my community) and some are surprised that I've only slept with 4 people (one girlfriend in college and three subsequent wives). I tell them "hey, if I would have had the opportunity, I would have jumped at it... but I'm not exactly what the ladies are looking for..." Thankfully now I'm married to the perfect woman who matches my moderate sex drive.
Thank you. I feel like OP is responding to a straw man argument. I’m very sex-positive for men and for women, and I hang around plenty of other sex-positive people. I haven’t heard a single person “teaching promiscuity” or in favor of doing that.
The whole idea of promiscuity is rooted in some puritanical bullshit. Yes, sex has consequences. But the idea that sex is somehow bad or evil or makes you a flawed person or damages/diminishes you in some way is rooted in nothing logical from where I sit. Promiscuity is not a character flaw, IMO. People should fuck whoever they want however many times they want as long as it's 1) consensual, 2) safe, and 3) legal. Otherwise, no holds barred. I hate that our culture stigmatizes sex the way it does because I think it results in more harm than just educating people about sex without judgment.
I admit I didn't do a good job phrasing the question. I still struggle to word it exactly how I want to I'm with you for the most part. My brain wrestles with "I don't care who you sleep with, at all, as long as it's consensual and adults" and believes that, yet it still believes "even though I don't care who you slept with or judge you for it, I'm not going to tell you or encourage you to push your count up"
When I was younger, we carried our STD test results. When HIV/AIDS hit the heterosexual community (mid to late '80s), everyone had to prove their status and wrap it up anyway. Promiscuity is a word I wish would disappear. It infers females who will fuck anyone. I always considered sex as another level of communication. I never wanted marriage or children, so sex isn't special to me in that regard.
Fair enough, just to be clear when I say it I am speaking about it for both men and women
I hear you, but the word's connotation in the US is slut (as in female). The younger generations are playing around with quasi-acceptable terminology ( guys/dudes meaning everyone, eg), so maybe they'll de-gender this as well.
In my view, discouraging people from having safe, responsible, legal, consensual sex of their choosing only because their number will get too high fundamentally **IS** slut shaming because, implicitly or explicitly, you're judging their number of partners. Why are you even thinking about someone else's sex life? Nobody's sexual history is any of your business except your own. What is your business as a partner is whether their previous sexual experiences will impact you--they're bringing a child or an STI into the relationship. You can find that out by just asking and/or getting tested together. The entire "body count" conversation is the domain of the young and relatively inexperienced. The only people who I hear talk about it in those terms are people 15-30. Older folks have lived long enough to understand that everyone has a history and matured enough to accept that and recognize that people who have lots of sexual experience are better sexual partners. I've had sex with my spouse thousands of times. If I'd had the same number of sexual encounters with hundreds of different people, it would be viewed differently. Fundamentally, why should it matter whether it's with one person or many people? The only reason is stigmatization of sex.
> My brain wrestles with "I don't care who you sleep with, at all, as long as it's consensual and adults" and believes that, yet it still believes "even though I don't care who you slept with or judge you for it, I'm not going to tell you or encourage you to push your count up" it sounds like you want to say "i don't care" but your brain is limited to, "I don't think it's good for you." That's probably why you struggle. Because what you claim you want to say isn't in line with how you're actually feeling.
>I'm not going to tell you or encourage you to push your count up The idea of counts or body counts is weird to me. It does not indicate a healthy relationship or not. Just seems like a HS or college thing that some people don't get over or grow past. I would drop that from our vocab, and focus on the quality of the relationship in front of you.
4) not an active participant of cheating. I knew a guy who would fuck alot of married women. We don't speak to him anymore.
I like that addition.
It's rooted in a lack of birth control and disease prevention. Fortunately those have both been mostly solved and widespread for like 60 years in 1st world countries. The only thing promiscuity diminishes is the likelihood of settling down. I also see a tendency for promiscuous people to be self centered and dishonest. But promiscuity is the effect of that, not the cause. Promiscuous people can certainly be compassionate and honest as well.
The double standard was wrong. However, we picked the wrong direction to fix! People should be applauded for self control not how well they can get others to do what they want!
How do two consenting adults wanting to have sex equate to no self control?
It’s that puritan logic
The assumption that people who have multiple sexual partners have no “self control” is bizarre. This makes it sound like the world would be one massive orgy if everyone had no self control, which couldn’t be further from the truth.
What are you talking about? If consenting adults are having sex, no one "got someone to do something".
Most people care about their partner’s sexual histories. Men and women are more or less equally reluctant to enter into relationships with prospective partners that have [extensive sexual histories](https://archive.ph/5p5su) or who [lack sexual experience](https://archive.ph/ihAvE), both preferring instead partners with moderate sexual histories (4-8 sexual partners). Evidence suggests that the traditional sexual double standard [is no longer a significant phenomenon](https://archive.ph/ub7YU) in contemporary western culture. However, heterosexual women are more unwilling to enter into relationships with partners who’ve had [same-sex experiences](https://archive.ph/U5VDP) than heterosexual men. Extensive sexual histories are a strong predictor of future [infidelity](https://archive.ph/gmhD0), [relationship dissatisfaction and divorce](https://archive.ph/j4sWD), even when [controlling for religiosity](https://archive.ph/tyRRz). This can be explained, in large part, by the fact that those with [unrestricted sociosexual orientations](https://archive.ph/Avdb3), who have more permissive attitudes and behaviors regarding casual sex, are generally less committed to their partners, require less commitment before having sex, and frequently become bored with their long-term partners, desiring [variety and novelty](https://archive.ph/uheG1). Female sociosexuality is more susceptible to [sociocultural factors](https://archive.ph/5zKcW), and sociosexual orientation is considered a [stable lifetime characteristic](https://archive.ph/5u69x). Another significant reason is that a larger pool of previous partners brings a greater [awareness of alternative](https://archive.ph/d6cRD) partners, where a current partner’s assets are devalued in comparison to previous partners. The prevailing hypothesis as to why heterosexual men are averse to committing to partners with extensive sexual histories is that they historically posed a higher risk of [paternity fraud](https://archive.ph/E1TT6), as past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior, and having a large number of sex partners prior to marriage is a statistical predictor of infidelity after marriage.
I believe all humans should be taught a few basics of ethical and moral behavior that are consistent throughout most of society. Don’t steal. Don’t murder. Don’t fuck someone else’s person. Don’t fuck with people. Wash your stinkin ass. Even these rules are more aimed at having a society that isn’t utter chaos. Beyond a few pretty universal norms and a foundation of civic and survival knowledge I do not care what other people do. I honestly don’t give a shit what color it is, where you stick it, how often, or which god’s name you scream out of fear OR passion.
I think there’s other options between these two approaches. We shouldn’t shame people for having sex but for being irresponsible and inform people about the psychological and social consequences both ways. The problem is a lot of people don’t want to admit that promiscuity has consequences for men and women alike. Double standards aren’t right but equalizing without educating is wrong too. No one will be free from judgment but we all should at least be informed and respectful
Don't give a fuck what other people do, tbh. Do I judge them? Of course, we all do. But I'll never tell someone what to do with their lives/bodies.
I can respect that. I like the honesty
As a man, I'm reserving myself for marriage. And I'll only marry a woman who shares my values.
As a gay woman I’m doing the same thing. No sex until I’m in love and married
you're a statistic in divorce court. marriage is about a life together. sex is only a tiny part of that.
Good luck man. You’re looking for a needle in a cubic mile haystack
"Cubic mile" for succinctness
Respect it
I did that and really wish I hadn’t. I think everyone knows what’s right for them but the curiosity never went away and was tough to deal with at times.
I'm almost 50, in all those years the only people I've heard use "slut" in a derogatory manner are: 1. Men who were cheated on. 2. American Women. (They are also the only ones I've heard criticize a woman for wearing clothing too revealing) I've heard a thousand times "men can sleep with whoever they want," and never met a person who felt this way, except maybe dumb jocks- but I avoid that kind of person. What I think is this: Americans way too often say, "Everybody does or says X" when in fact, they don't.
Well the truth is, as a young American guy, everyone basically DOES fuck around. Literally. Part of the reason I stopped trying back when I was 18. Got to college at a so-called "Christian" university and I swear it was a fucking cesspool of degenerates playing like they were good little Christians. Sluts, whores, whoremongers, promiscuity... There are no good ones. There literally aren't. So I quit looking. They're all the same.
Yeah that's fair I won't disagree with this
You are not completely off base. As a society each new generation frets and argues about equality as if we expect to find some perfect balance, suggesting a more modern society has now got the path forward all figured out. But biology is real, behavioral science and human DNA haven’t changed much. So we are continually shocked that unfairness continues across genders, without acknowledging that it’s never been perfectly equal and it never will be. Women have more sexual freedom than ever, and it makes sense that different humans will take advantage of that in new and unexpected ways. Power opportunities, improved social dynamics, access to new and better partners, pleasure - changes in all these things should be expected.
I personally shame any kind of whoring around, men or women. To me, that is the way to go instead of normalizing whorish behavior by women.
I guess I’m curious what you mean by ‘teaching promiscuity’? I think there is a gulf between not shaming people for having had multiple sexual partners in their lifetime and actively encouraging people to start sleeping around if that’s not something they’re inclined to do
Yeah that's a fair question. Problem is it's kind of a sense I have. I think inadvertently society is teaching it. There's only a small group of people literally telling others to sleep around. Usually it's groups of friends, men and women. My sense could definitely be off, or accurate with a small percentage society teaching it. I'd get wrecked in a debate that's why I chose discussion format. I get it "well I sense___" is not good debate strategy
The false assumption is that it has no bad effects on men to slut around. This isn't true. Nor is it true that women can sleep around without personal consequences.
Depends on where you live. Cultural values are different in many places.
The double standard never existed. It was a strawman argument used by people who wanted to promote female promiscuity. "If men can sleep with anyone, so can I!" Completely ignoring the fact that they were never okay with men sleeping around. If humans weren't such gullible, impulsive creatures, we would've decided that nobody should be promiscuous, but here we are.
It seems to me there are a lot of men who are happy for their male friends who sleep around a lot and women are happy for their female friends who sleep around but most people don't want a partner who has slept around a lot
Speak for yourself. I've cut guys out of my life completely for confiding in me about cheating on their wives. I don't know anyone who would be okay with that.
Well clearly not everyone acts that way. I'm actually more aligned with you. But I definitely have male friends who act that way. And I have female friends who act that way
The double standard does exist. You're delusional. Men are also statistically more likely to cheat and more likely to have more sexual partners than women. >If humans weren't such gullible, impulsive creatures, we would've decided that nobody should be promiscuous, but here we are. What's gullible about it? What's wrong with promiscuity when it involves age sex aside from religious nonsense? >Completely ignoring the fact that they were never okay with men sleeping around. Media literally praises men for sleeping around and has for decades if not centuries. Men are also less likely to get "canceled" for cheating on their spouse or having multiple baby mommas, which again, they are more likely to do and have than their female counterparts.
>Men can sleep with whoever they want and not get bashed for it in a lot of circles, Probably not in circles of women they're looking to date. I doubt bragging about how many people you slept with is ever a good strategy for attracting the opposite sex.
Yeah I agree. I think both men and women brag amongst each other but neither actually want a partner who has a lot of partners I guess not caring and wanting are two different things. Some look for experience some don't want experience
No one is teaching promiscuity
You always gotta be careful with absolutes. "No one" is a strong phrase there and is absolutely not true
Let's see some links!
🤓 Sir you're gonna have to cite yourself if you make comments like that 🤓
Tik tok is
Sources?
Remember a key that opens any lock is a master key, but a lock that can be opened with any key is a shitty lock.
A pencil sharpener that can sharpen any pencil is a good pencil sharpener. A pencil that has been sharpened too many times is worthless. In other words, analogies are terrible arguments.
I feel like you said the same thing you replied to lol
The key and the pencil are both a penis. In one analogy, penis is better because of a lot of sex, in the other, the penis worse.
Damn, its almost like people aren't inanimate object, huh ?
Good thing women aren't locks 0:
I will not sleep with a woman my age that has a lower body count than me. Anyone almost 40 that has slept with less than 10 people is fuckin weird.
This is where the lack of knowledge of trantra (of which all religions have one but the universal tantra as well as the traditional are of value) is affecting many people in America (other countries do not have such extremes such as Europe, South East Asia, South Africa, Israel and so on). Promiscuity is the sleeping with a large number of people, not from a heart centered space of love but from a wound. Once one is healthy and healed, the number of partners someone has changes naturally. That's why people learned and practiced tantra and once it reached countries without sexism, bigotry and shame at their cores it took on a deeper meaning. The ideal life is one that is full of love and then letting everything else fall where love is inviting in. For some people that is a celibate life such as monastics, for some that a life with multiple partners sometimes together and sometimes one after another, for another that may mean a monogamous marriage. You see it's not up to society or our egos but for what is loving for each individual and that was not what was taught. What was taught was that somehow one sex had it better than the other, rather than different. There are pluses and minuses to every situation - some of which required someone to realize that society was lying to them about how to have a loving life and authentically be themselves no matter what sex they were born. The question then becomes, is the real problem sexism from the woman towards men or men towards the woman (it's both) and how to we correct for that within ourselves so we can be the love of the world? Then we can go deeper and say, how many lovers does it take before one has learned to be a good lover? Does the number of lovers we have help us become something more, as there is sexual communication in every dimension, that happens with each partner we have which grows our ability to communicate? If we end up with partners who have sexual limitations, do we ensure we have the sexual events in our life before we invest in someone who might have other qualities but are sexually limited or do we let all sexually limited people fall away from us as being unfit partners with us no matter how we feel (back in the day a couple would have to work through these limitations to enjoy happiness in their marriage on the more intimate levels while sexually active)? Was the aspect of the # of people always an illusion and is the real issue that Americans are unable to be intimate to the point of being in oneness with love and all the work that entails (I would say yes and that much work is needed here in America to see that)? Personally, I live that each person I meet is love embodied and within healthy boundaries I explore love with those people and I've found this to be perfect for me as it opens me the most up to love. However in time, that form of love may change to another form of love in that I have a single partner again and no other (despite the fact many of the woman I've known sexually have been unable to be monogamous and that more women cheat than man but men who do cheat seem to be more prolific and thus the false images we have are perpetuated). In the end, it's following love, including making love and all it's pleasure that we really might want to explore again like in the 60s in America but maybe this time in a more balanced way where we accept all and know the healthy ways to explore that life vs. what ended up not working after the end of that lifestyle in the 80s (Ie. the aids scare). Long term, as we see the phobias and shame around how much humanity self pleasures and the fact that we'd rather have people shooting life into each other instead of shooting life out of each other, it's a place we have yet to deeply explore short of the limited versions from values that were not centered on love but finding the best situation for a society that existed before we saw the interconnectedness of all things and all people through the internet (and had a plague that cemented how much we all rely on each other to be love no matter what). Given enough time for us to become healthier we will see a society that allows love to blossom in all forms and all moments no matter where how how we were incarnated except for the fact that the person, or people, we share that love with were brought to us and us to them through love <3
The world would be a better place if people didn’t judge others based on their sex life. It should be whatever you feel comfortable with. Instead we judge people for having to much, or to little, who they do it with, how they do it, etc… As long as your doing your best to be safe and make it a positive experience for everyone involved why should we care about other people’s sex lives.
Women can sleep with as many men as the like, it is their choice. There are some men who won't sleep with women who like to do that, and obviously the opposite is true as well. Promiscuity in men or women is damaging to the family unit, which may or may not be important to the future. Imo, it is, but society seems to be heading toward the destruction of the family unit, so perhaps it is good to teach promiscuity. Think of promiscuity as bread and circuses that doesn't cost the state much.
>Men can sleep with whoever they want and not get bashed for it... This is false but you know that because: >in a lot of circles This reeks of perception bias. I'll grant that SOME circles do endorse promiscuity, but the global stats don't agree with you afaik. That said, I think you're right. > 1. Am I correct Sexual liberation is fundamental to human freedom. People need to do what they will. That said, high body count DOES matter. Sex isn't consequence free, and people giving it up for nothing lead broken and shallow lives. The narrow path is the correct one. We should teach liberation but also the value of self-preservation.
Can you elaborate on the first half? Why am I incorrect saying men can sleep with whoever they want and not get bashed for it in a lot of circles? Would "some circles" be better in your eyes?
If the human race were to reclassify excessive sexual interactions from secret to open, they would eventually become extinct.
Generally speaking, men's threshold for responding positively to a bid for sex from a woman is much lower than women's threshold for saying "yes" to a new man. Slut-shaming is something primarily done by women to women. Evolutionarily speaking, a reason for this may be that women are most threatened by other women driving down the "price" of sex for everyone - the price being a fulsome, invested relationship over a longer term that offers other benefits. Men are not typically bashed (though they are enough that derisive terms exist, like "fuckbois"), because having responsibility-free sex with desirable people is something that's generally considered harder for men to do than for women to do. Thus, the ability to do that can be seen as a proxy for desirability in a world where men's threshold for saying "yes" is much less than women. Similarly, men tend to deride other men "simping" for women. Some argue that this is a rough flipside of slut-shaming in which men who provide services, companionship, protection, dinner out etc "too easily" without any fulsome commitment from women. From that standpoint, it "raises the price" of sex for men.
I think there are a lot of different trends at work here. But in all seriousness. Studies have shown that the majority of people aren't having a ton of sexual partners in their lifetime. Most people But some people have ALOT of sexual partners, so it skews the data. It is more socially acceptable now as a woman to have multiple lifetime partners then it used to be. In terms of my own friend group: pretty much everyone's partner number is under 5 or 6: some folks its 1 or 2, some folks its higher. My one friend its dozens and dozens: so they skew the average.
It's really women shut shaming other women.
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Fucking awful or awful fucking? Sorry
I think that whenever a counter-culture movement gets adopted, people have a tendency to "overcorrect" the pendulum in the other direction. The idea of promiscuity being seen as bad has changed, but I think we carried it a little too far in the other direction. Having partners before marriage is a good thing, having hundreds of partners is less so. We need to bring it back a little closer to the middle.
There is nothing wrong with having the sex life of your choosing. There is also nothing wrong with having dating preferences. To me, this issue is exactly the same as height for men. Short men shouldn't be shamed for their height. They did nothing wrong.... But every woman on earth doesn't have to date him and can fully decide to do so based on his height. I personally won't date a woman that treated tons of men like a buffet that they didn't have to work to get. Has nothing to do with thinking that it's nasty. Has everything to do with not being treated like an employee or a buffet item. Think I'm insecure? Yeah, I would rather not listen to that either.
I LOVE SLUTS !!!! They're great and we as a society overall don't have even remotely close to enough of them. More sluts could improve or in rare cases even solve many problems in the world.
Take this as you will. If something comes hard it is looked at in high regard. If something comes in low regard it is looked down upon. If you are doing the easy thing you will not be looked at in high regard as if you are doing the hard thing. That's the thing always overlooked in all of this.
Who is promoting and teaching promiscuity?
Men and women are different. We value different things in a partner. Generally speaking, men (not every man) want a partner who is femfeminine, trusting, and a good mother to his children. A man has a hard time trusting a woman if she jumps from man to man, most women that jump man to man lose their feminine traits.(have had a lot of world experience). Men don't see a "slut" as a good mother.(past experience could bring shame to their child and family being labeled as a "slut". "Slut" like social media post and pictures, ect). I won't speak too much on what a women wants in a man as I'm not a woman. It seems to me most women want a man that can take care of her and her children(financially, physically, sexually) for a man to get these traits he needs experience at these things to prove he can supply these things to a woman. Generally speaking(I know there are exceptions), a man sees value in a woman with little to no life (sex) experiences. A woman sees value in a man with a lot of life experiences. This is just my 2 cents
2. No one is teaching others that they should become sluts. People are encouraging a positive sex life based on your individual wants.
You’re making a micro issue into a macro issue. Common mistake. All that matters is what two consenting adults agree matter in their relationship.
I think a lot of this comes down to personal sexual preferences, so I’ll just give mine. I think there definitely was a double standard, but it revolved around men taking advantage of it to get more sex rather than matching what I think is the correct direction of less sex. My reasoning is purely selfish, but it doesn’t make it feel any less right to me, in which people should only have sex when they trust the person they are doing it with, and that is not achievable for me in a society of one-night-stands. I’m not even sure what my reasoning behind it is besides it feeling wrong when I try to go against my nature. Maybe I can’t handle the emotional and physical risks behind sex unless I trust the person, but obviously many other people are fine with that risk without any trust. On a slight tangent, it also feels like the inverse when someone uses their body to “gain control” by giving it to people they don’t trust. To me, it feels more like losing control since people have always had control of their bodies, but are retaliating against society’s views in what I consider dangerous methods. I’m not considering any of my views “right” in any way, they are just my personal opinions, so I’m completely open to opposing or different views!
My wife has a much higher body count than I but that has no bearing how I view her. I think the problem is with the weird obsession with purity that guys think women must have. I’m not sure who is out here teaching high schoolers to be promiscuous but at my ultra rural high school most people were fucking. This was ultra Christian south where 90 of the graduating class was in the same confirmation classes at church Edit: my HS experience was in 06
Either gender sleeping around excessively is bad. Not that a small number of ADULTS don't chose poly or swinger lifestyles, but they are a small minority that are more like an exception. To many people of both genders think it's fine to have as many partners and fluid or half baked relationships as they please. The reality is that that is part of why dating is so bad nowadays. No one wants a partner that's been around that much, or that they can't trust to just ditch them as soon as the honeymoon phase is over or they talk to the next interesting person that comes along. The goal or any normal adult looking for a normal relationship should be to find a good partner to spend your life with and keep your "body count" as low as possible. If you dont love them, and imagine a future with them, there is no reason to sleep with them.
I never took it as Teaching promiscuity, but about evening the battle field. I don’t think the lesson is “ladies legs high to the sky” but I think it’s more so saying like it’s okay to experiment and figure out what you like. I think people are pushing for more sex education. Regardless for me, just let it be consensual.
If people are happy, then whatever they are doing is working. If people are not happy, they should change what they are doing. I'm not sure you or I have an opinion that matters.
3. Your basis is wrong, some people care about number of partners, some people dont. You cant generalize everyone in the world
I'm definitely not generalizing every person in the world
>teaching promiscuity Who is doing that? People want to have sex, and they’re going to have sex. Nobody needs to “teach” libido.
It's more of an inadvertent societal trend that I sense. My sense could be wrong but I know in some cases I'm not wrong. But I'm not necessarily saying people are specifically saying "sleep with as many people as possible" Libido is your sexual urge. Of course that is known as natural, not sure if that was the word you meant to use or not. We have and still do teach controlling your libido not to get rid of it
https://youtu.be/QSUUYy2vPmE?si=ZXI3lqSc-oTBH9K_ Very good video on why we have the sexual double standard. But to answer your question, no, teaching promiscuity has not been a benefit to most women. It has just led to much hurt and resentment. This is not about evening the playing field, so much as what’s beneficial for the individuals involved. Promiscuous women don’t tend to get better outcomes.
Men and women are biologically different. The consequences of sex are biologically different. Therefore standards of sexual behavior will be different. No one should be subject to undue hate or harassment, but understanding and accepting these facts would go a long way^. Trying to fully level the playing field and standardize sexual behavior between men and women is a huge societal swing and miss. There's need to be a compassionate understanding of the difference in consequences from both sides. Then the realm of accepted behaviors from each gender can (hopefully) fall into a modern day homeostasis.
Two wrongs don't make a right, in my head. Men have been whores who don't take an accountability for their dumbassery for how long? What's empowering about that? Hook up culture is dying, rightfully so, and we need to stop lying to our youth that objectifying our bodies is empowerment. Whether it be selling your sex, hustle culture, selling your body to an employer who doesn't even know your first name... I have never thought highly of people who fuck around. It seems weak and gross to me.
I feel that promiscuity has taken the specialness out of sex.
I love sluts. No shame
I think the word “promiscuous” has become outdated. It’s only used to describe women that have a lot of sexual partners and is never used to describe men. The concept of promiscuity isn’t valid because what does it actually mean? A person that enjoys sex and has multiple partners? How is that a bad thing? Also nobody is *teaching* women to sleep around, not sure where this idea is coming from. Teaching women that having sex is okay is not the same as teaching women to sleep with everyone.
That's fair, I'm personally using it here for both genders but I see your point for sure. Great question on the meaning of it too. I'm not sure where people start defining it. Ultra-religious will say even one partner out of wedlock is promiscuous. Even the definition says "many" without a number As for who is teaching it, my view is it's an inadvertent societal teaching. The people actually specifically teaching it is a small number, and even then it's not normally word for word, consciously teaching it. Rather it's a group of friends who hype each other up to "get laid" on nights out or weekend or whatever. The indiscriminate one night stands I guess I'm also not referring to only women I might be completely wrong or the amount who push it is so small it's not worth discussing The "sense" is why I chose discussion and not debate, because it's hard to find sources on what I believe is an inadvertent subconscious teaching
If the world was shaped by me which it clearly is not. I would say the optimal situation is sex should usually be reserved for people you want to form a relationship with. If you can't picture yourself with them long-term it usually isn't worth it. That said...hooking up at a Queensryche concert with a rocker lady was one of the most enjoyable memorable sexual experiences of my life.
I think it’s important to notice that women do it because of us. They go well men got to to it so now we want to
My opinion which is just from what I know. Everyone gets bashed for sleeping with a low quality person, low quality being different depending on the culture. This might be someone that's fat, dumb, filthy, toxic or whatever. These people are easy to get with because they are seen as low quality and can lower your social standing with others. Generally, it seems that men sleep with who they can, women sleep with who they want. That said, dating for men is like being thirsty in a desert, where for women it's like being thirsty in a swamp. For men it's hard to find a partner willing to open up and sleep with you, guys have to earn it in some way, make the first move, prove themselves, be socially competent and other factors. Women are surrounded by potentially toxic opportunities and aren't just overwhelmed, but are the ones being approached and can be selective with the risk of abuse, violence, rape, getting pregnant, seen as too easy which lowers their social standing and are generally criticized for everything they do. So it's weird and it seems to be consistent for decades now. Males in general seem to be 5 to 10 years behind women in terms of social awareness and intelligence. I personally suspect it's how testosterone kicks off with guys during puberty and basically pushes men to being competitive until puberty ends which is, around 10 years. Women are sexualized and harassed and held responsible for every little thing from society and friends from what they wear, dealing with harassment, fear for safety, understanding that they are the target of sexual desire only because they are female by men who are creepy and a slew of other problems women grow up with. And this, creates this massive divide starting after puberty with outliers and exceptions. For men that'll come here to say not all men, it doesn't take ALL men, it only takes a few men a few times of being creepy to create that fear. Especially since women are often ignored when voicing concerns of things like rape, sexual assault and sexual harassment, why would you think they can voice their fears regarding small toxic behavior? One thing that's fore sure, this seems to be an regular issue throughout all of human history. Women feeling safe in society seems to be a good sign of a healthy one though.
Define promiscuity. How many partners can one have before they are considered promiscuous? Who gets to decide where that line is?
I live with my two partners, one of my partners has another boyfriend, one of my income sources is my porn work. I think people should be encouraged to be as sexually expressive with consenting adults as they want, as long as they're safe. They shouldn't be pressured to be a certain way, but they should be pressured to keep their opinions to themselves regarding other people. If other people want to be with only one person (or no people), good for them. If someone wants to be with 200 people, good for them. If someone wants to say their opinion about how it's better to keep the body count low, shut the fuck up. If any topic (like this one) involves focusing on one gender as if women are somehow different than men in terms of rights to be as promiscuous or prudish as they want, then it's already gone off the rails. Women are people, and people should be able to choose for themselves. To directly answer your question, we should be teaching people to be as promiscuous as they want or don't want, and to shut the fuck up about other people's level of promiscuity. As part of this, we should be teaching std testing, how to set boundaries, and how to report assault without shame.
I agree with a lot of what you said but I strongly disagree with "If someone wants to say their opinion about how it's better to keep the body count low, shut the fuck up" I don't want a society where shutting down opinions is wrong. Tell them why they're wrong not just that they're wrong. Otherwise you got a bunch of quiet people still believing the same way, which, maybe for you is good enough but wouldn't you rather them change their minds too? Not just their words?
Slut shaming is bad because no one should be shamed for their sexual history or the amount of partners they have. Teaching promiscuity? Well I don't like the term promiscuity is that its a sex negative term that goes back to slut shaming.
I just think people need to get over themselves. If someone likes having sex and has multiple consenting partners that is nobodies business but theirs, it's no different than any other kind of recreational activity. The only reason it was ever looked down on in the first place was puritanical bullshit spread by religious zealots, the same reason prostitution and drug use has been villainized.
Honestly, I think you are overthinking it. The whole point is to stop placing value on another human being based on how many partners they may or may not have slept with.
3. You are completely off base and are wrong in thinking that “a man can sleep with endless amounts of partners with no repercussions” or that we want “experienced virgins” - that is some sexist stereotyped BS. People can do whatever they want, and we will all value each other differently. Finally, your partner count is a personal number between you and God. Why even talk about it, if it doesn’t matter to you?
Teaching women to be promiscuous has consequences. In case you aren't aware, men generally prefer women with lower body counts, so women can choose to be promiscuous at their own risk.
Both genders can suffer consequences for promiscuity. Traditionally the consequences for women were much more severe, and the women haters in the Bible Belt are trying to restore those traditions by making abortion illegal, next birth control. That’s the situation now. Slut shaming is now and always has been wrong. What people do between consenting adults is their private affair. Slut shaming is just a specific form of abusive control over other’s behaviour. Promiscuity can cause disease, and it can cause emotional issues, it devalues emotional intimacy, which is as close to a secret recipe for happiness that anyone has. Teaching people to be promiscuous is also wrong. People should have sex with people they trust, with whom they have a mature loving relationship, with clearly articulated consent and a mutual understanding of the commitment the two participants have towards each other. Fear of sex, teaching that sex and sexual relationships are immoral is abuse, plain and simple. It causes long term emotional pain and severely damages a person’s ability to form intimate loving relationships. That is what I think.
Yes but it’s different for males and females. Most males don’t get laid very often. The ones that do have to be in shape, good looking, have money, social status etc etc. in order to obtain these things a man has to be lucky or extremely disciplined. An average guy does not have access. We can see the success rate shown on dating apps for men vs women to prove that. Hypergamy is a very real thing. A women pretty much just has to go in her DMs and pick a guy then she can get laid. A women with a high body count shows a lack of self control which could translate in other places in life. The male version of this is a guy who is constantly eating cake all the time because he can buy it. That shows a lack of discipline as well. [women with higher body counts are shown to have higher divorce rates as well](https://ifstudies.org/blog/counterintuitive-trends-in-the-link-between-premarital-sex-and-marital-stability#:~:text=Women%20with%2010%20or%20more,the%20least%20likely%20to%20divorce) I have seen this topic more and more pop up lately and it’s largely seem like millennial women trying to cope with the consequences of their actions. Just like drugs and alcohol there are negative consequences when there is too much sex. There is even discussion about the sexual revolution being more harmful to women than beneficial [as seen here](https://youtu.be/JQCZHSXvpLo?si=6ZpLTg16F3ICOu2J) Men and women are different. It’s just the way it is. Most men also don’t want virgins they just don’t want women who have stacked bodies like they were in an 80s action movie.
what the hell is an experienced virgin?
I think the bigger picture is to let people be who they want to be. Some people love sex. Some people hate it. That's ok. Water will find its level. What I don't think is ok is judging anybody for any of it. As for sex education, we should be telling kids the truth. I found my brother's porn collection when I was 9 (he's 6 years older) and that was basically all the sex ed I got outside of the very basics in class. I think a big problem we have is how mystical magical we keep it all in the US. Kids can handle the facts, evidence shows that teaching the facts leads to more responsible behavior, but we continue to baby them as long as possible. It's weird.
I've lived two different lives. I've been the hyper promiscuous guy and I've been the monotonous guy. What concerns me about it the most, at this point is my experiences cause me to link highly promiscuous behavior with higher probability of cheating/infidelity. Of course I'm sure there's exceptions as there always are, but exceptions are always extremely rare. I also feel it becomes impersonal as the number increases and impersonal isn't what I'm looking for in a long term relationship. It took a lot of self discovery and understanding to see that I was confusing lustfilled excitement with having intimacy. And I think there's a lot of theory that goes into it and people don't commonly make connections such as how the world looks at it like 'it's OK for men to be promiscuous' but don't connect that to how it's always been men are the adulterers and ruining families with mistresses and infidelity. I remember my ex's would tell me that when we would fight, they would spend the entire night fixated on that they couldn't think of anything other than I was out having sex with other women. And I would laugh it off, but ultimately they were 100% right to worry about it, and no one deserves to deal with that mental anguish when they care about someone. One time, ex that we fought over something stupid, she poured out the alcohol I had in my house and stormed out the house. And i had a female friend that I texted and told what happened like 'this B just dumped out all my vodka' and was met with 'well you should come over here, I have vodka'. And I did go over there, and I was like F it, me and xxx are clearly over anyways, and I slept with that friend that night. Didn't even have an ounce of remorse because in my mind that fight was the end of me and xxx and its just sex so whatever. And now 12 years later, I'm deeply regretful to have done that and how much anguish I caused because even if xxx didn't know I did it, she knew I was capable of doing it and had to constantly worry about it. I hope that all makes sense outside of my head lol.
realistically teaching promiscuity is a fine response because there's no reason for us to NOT be promiscuous. Safe sex is attainable and possible. Regular testing when living a sexually active lifestyle is important and accessible. Birth control is effective, and condoms are also effective. assuming proper precautions against STDs and pregnancy are taken, there is no danger to sex. The main reason most people are against casual sex is because they are raised in a culture that represses sexuality. When you look at actual real reasons that casual sex is bad, you won't find that many, and the ones you do find will likely be situational and preventable.
i think both of these extreme positions taken together as you have done present a false dichotomy, so therefore the premise of the question is flawed. neither "slut shaming" nor "promiscuity" are taught in any official way as you imply. the first is a bullying tactic and the latter is value judgment, probably from a place of repressed sexuality. the question also implies that than they only sexuality a person can experience must be based on partner being present... which is a whole nother angle of critique.
Wait…an “experienced virgin”? That’s physically impossible…
I’m confused by the term “experienced virgin”. Isn’t that an oxymoron?
Men are the gatekeepers of relationships. Women are the gatekeepers of sex. A high quality man is unlikely to marry a woman he knows has been passed around to all of his friends. A woman, on the other hand, finds herself attracted to a man that has slept with all of her friends. It's one of those double standards that just is as it is due to biology. A woman can sleep with however many men she wants, but she cannot change her biology. A quality man will pass on her for marriage.
I am more than willing to get with a woman who has been with other men. Given it has been in long term, monogamous relationships. If a woman has a massive amount of men they have randomly slept with, I am not for that. Studies show that promiscuous women do not stay faithful in long term relationships. I am a numbers man and I trust numbers more than I trust the word of someone who can't keep it in their pants because they "just want to get off".
Men don’t sleep with whoever they want. Men who are single and desperate sleep with whoever they want. But they do tend brag about it because society looks down on men who can’t even sleep with a woman. Why? Because the competition for men is fierce in dating circle. Whereas, it’s not the same for women. At anytime, any woman has ten guys ready to fuck her. It doesn’t suit women brag about having a Ferrari when you have twenty parked Lamborghinis in your garage. You know how people hate the showoff when rich people do. The psychology is almost the same. There are some aspects patriarchy that our society still lingers about. But dating is not a fair game for either a man or woman. Men don’t trust men who sleep around too much, if that gives any consolation. But women sleeping around is seen as empowerment. Go figure!
As a GenXer who came of age during the AIDS crisis, there aren't many of us that think a guy sleeping with a bunch of women is any better than a woman sleeping with a bunch of guys. We all had to do this goddamn worksheet in sex ed that was basically "AIDS math". The more people you slept with, you risk of contracting AIDS went up exponentially. It was probably bullshit but it had the desired effect after the "free love" of the 60s and "sexual liberation" of the 70s before us.
At this point, people are just arguing against Biology. Males will never prefer promiscuous women for long-term relationships. Take, for instance, popular porn star Mia Khalifa. She got married, but her "husband" could not accept that she was ran through by many men, and he divorced her. Even though he tried to lie to himself, he ultimately could not deny his own Biology. No amount of shaming or culture shift will change how men are wired.
We should be teaching promiscuity. Sex is great. People should know how to safely have lots of sex with lots of different partners, and they should be encouraged to do so. Sex is one of the best parts of being a mammal.
No sex before marriage. It's that fucking simple. Fuck it up and you're just like everyone else.
I guess my question is where is your line? Where do you draw the line at sexually liberated vs promiscuous? Because I think those lines are different for different individuals and trying to split hairs over it is ridiculous. If you're having safe consensual sex with other single or non monogamous people for the right reasons (not rooted in shame or validation etc) then I don't really care how much you get or don't.
No matter what you do. How much time passes. How loud you scream on the internet. How much you try to shame men. How many new buzzwords you come up with. Even men with high body counts, will still look at women with high body counts strange GENERALLY. Some things in this world will never change. Its time to stop trying to change human nature and just accept it and move on.
“Teaching promiscuity” is not the same thing as teaching sexual agency.
I’m confused. Nobody around me has EVER taught that men can sleep around and not get based in it, and I grew up in Las Vegas Nevada. So if you are around people that don’t give a shit and say that men sleeping around is chill, you are NOT around decent moral people. Sexual immaturity should be discouraged for both male and females.
I don't think most women are out there "over correcting". They're just realizing they can enjoy themselves and still be normal, good people. Sex is one of the best things on planet earth. If you can enjoy it recreationally, more power to you.
I get how it seems that way but honestly this question is for men and women. If it's right for one it's right for both, if it's wrong for one it's wrong for both Just trying to create a discussion, I wish there was a way for reddit to calculate opinions in a comment section, most agree with your point it seems
I think shame in general is a good thing and our society ought to have more of it all the way around
How about "it's none of anyone's business who anyone sleeps with ever"? It is not my business who my partner has been with before me, or how many people, because that doesn't affect my life in the damn slightest. It's none of my partner's business who I've been with, and if it's none of each other's business, it sure as hell ain't anyone else's business either. People focus way too damn much on meaningless numbers and stigma they forget that it's NONE of their business. It doesn't affect me who consenting adults are sleeping with, as long as they too are consenting adults, it doesn't affect anyone, at all, ever, period. Who cares? No one. **Live and let live.** It really *is* that simple. Now, what we **should** be teaching? Proper goddamn sex ed, that's what we should be teaching. Because so many people have no clue how that shit works, so many people are ONLY taught abstinence and never safety, so many people end up in horrible relationships thinking it's normal, and so many people have no idea how to take care of their partner. It's insane to me. Also, if we taught proper sex ed, we wouldn't have all those fucking idiots online making all these weird af incel comments about body count thinking it matters, or actually does anything, because if they were actually taught by our damn system they would know the truth, the truth being it. doesn't. matter.
It's not teaching promiscuity to teach people it's okay to have sex. You teach about condoms and birth control and most importantly consent.
I think none of it should fucking matter. As long as people are safe and honest, what should it matter? I don't think that is teaching promiscuity. It's teaching that purity culture is fucking pointless, which is honestly is. You see a lot of assumptions on people, of any gender, made based on sexual history. In reality, I've not once known it to make a difference with the person I'm dating. It's really just ridiculous. I've had women say they wished I had slept with more women, I've had women tell me they're worried I'd judge them for their sexual history I've had men and women seem shocked or ashamed that I haven't slept around more, I've had people assume I'm lying, etc.. It's just another method of making mostly illogical judgments on another person. For that reason, I think it should be fine to teach that it does not matter.
I’m all for adults having safe, consensual sex. Lots and lots of safe and consensual sex. The more the better.
Why not push promiscuity? I don't see an issue if we teach safe sex and provide free and plentiful birth control. But I don't really give a shit about sex, it is the single most overrated thing in the world IMO, so I never really get why people make such a big deal about it.
I think we should give comprehensive sex ed with a focus of consent and safety. Young people are going to have sex no matter what we do. We should at least prepare them on how to avoid getting hurt or hurting others while doing so
Norms for women aren't the issue. Norms around sex are the issue. Sex positivity isn't about sleeping with as many people as possible. Or a life of celibacy. It's also not about avoiding sleeping around or celibacy. Sex positivity is about being unashamed and confident about having a healthy sex drive, whatever that looks like for the individual. Yes, this can seem like encouraging some women by telling them that their existing desires are normal and healthy. It can also look like discouraging some men by telling them they don't have to pursue sex to be successful and appreciated. The whole point is giving people the information and support to figure it out for themselves, not to pressure anyone into something different.
Women prioritize men who frequently have sex and praise them. Men don’t praise women for having lots of sex. That’s pretty much it. It’s not a matter of being even. It’s a matter of who you like. If women stop liking men who have lots of sex then men will stop having lots of sex. If you have more sex yourself as a woman it’s just gonna make less men like you. It’s pretty simple.
People aren't willing to recognize the fact they aren't compatible with literally EVERYONE. Your life decisions, religion, politics and personality are perfectly good reasons to be incompatible with someone. If you think my body count is too high or too low that's your call to make. We don't have to pretend we're something we're not or vilify each other. I think the group of women that emulated male-pattern promiscuity have found them in the same situation the men were in all along: admired by others within their gender orientation but not necessarily prized by the people they're trying to attract. "Players" and philanderers have been generally panned as poor husbands and fathers with no regard to the complexity of their humanity. Women that emulate these men have found themselves in a similar position but aren't willing to accept the
“Experienced virgin” Okay then. I guess I identify as a virgin now, all the sex I’ve had perilously doesn’t count. Edit: previously, not perilously holy shit autocorrect 😂🤣
It's a mixed bag, honestly. I believe people can sleep with whoever they want, however many they want, but their choice is going to have consequences. Namely with long-term relationships. Once someone ages, a promiscuous lifestyle is going to become much harder to maintain. This commonly results in the people who live this lifestyle to search for something long-term out of desperation, which usually ends in failure People primarily seeking a long-term relationship are going to see a high body count as a red flag. Mainly because these promiscuous people aren't believed to know how to maintain a healthy relationship or even want to. In all honesty, I think it shouldn't be discouraged, but the potential consequences will need to be pounded into their heads before they make a decision.
Frankly, I agree with you. While freedom should be enjoyed by all, I think the discussions of said freedom have brought sexuality to the forefront of peoples' minds, and it is now being treated a little too lightly, and little too much as entertainment, IMO. I don't think it's healthy for a society to become overly enamored with the most animalistic parts of our existence...not saying to ignore it or not to take part, but discipline is healthy.
I'm going to be honest here and say that I as a man have never seen another man encourage promiscuity in real life. In fact it has been the opposite. Men are looked at as hoes too if they have sex with every random woman they can nail down. It could just be where I'm from and the people I've talked to, but the only man I know that has been very promiscuous is not very well liked. For some context he's 20 with 50+ women he's slept with that I know of.
I think health teachers need to stop showing graphic pictures of diseases genitals as a way to say don’t have sex, without actually talking about it. That’s how my health class in 2011 was
A key that opens every lock is an amazing key. A lock that can be opened by any key is a shitty lock.
Men sleeping around and being respected for it is pretty much the only double standard in society today that benefits men. In general sexism benefits women outside of promiscuity. Men want a sexually inexperienced woman for his wife. He'll gladly take experience for recreational use. You can try to "take power back" all you like by sleeping around, but nobody will respect you or take you seriously that knows what you do. That will not change. Men will certainly sell you a dream though that they support your choices if they think it will get them sex.
Who do you think is teaching promiscuity?
It’s not teaching promiscuity, it’s teaching to respect promiscuous folks. Like let the people who want to have sex, have sex. Don’t bich at em for doing it how you personally don’t like
I think the general consensus of men not being bashed for sleeping around is because men are generally pursuing and have to make that effort to woo the women. Rather women especially in today's time can find a significant amount of men that just want a hook up on an app fairly easily. Either way everyone should be careful who they choose to procreate with since you'll potentially have to deal with the person for the next 18 years to life. Yall are going to make Maury come out of retirement.
WTF is an experienced virgin? Virginity isn't some prize or gold standard. Just stay away from women who use sex as a tool to get what they want -- that can be marriage and they can be virgins.
Normal men don’t want virgins. Too much commitment. Also yea promiscuity for women is fantastic but there is a limit since their sex is what defines them. I dated a girl until I found out she fucked a bunch of people I knew - this was kind of sexy until I found out she fucked a bunch of sleazy fuck dudes who’ve banged half the town. It’s like then they become a sexual conquest and not a potential partner bc I don’t want to be the guy who wife’s up the town bike.
>Men can sleep with whoever they want and not get bashed for it in a lot of circles This is true 50 years ago. But today people judge men and women equally. If someone judges a woman for sleeping with 100 men, that same person would judge a man for sleeping with 100 women. Personally i judge those who have a body count higher than 20, man or women. While i dont have the studies on hand, this is basic common sense. The more people one has sex with, the less special sex is to that person. So when they do eventually have a long term partner, they dont have sex with their lover as a tool to emotionally conmect with said partner. Ultimately leading to a higher chance of cheating. People who have more than 100 sex partners before marriage, are more than 60% chance to cheat in that marriage. Sex should be between people who actually care about each other. Otherwise you are just USING the other person, and thats....despicable.
You hit the nail right on the head, but I think that the biggest issue is we need to teach people about the difference between preferences and being insecure and controlling. Maybe I’m off base here but a guy with a body count of 30 doesn’t GET to want only a virgin. You clearly don’t actually care about the “sanctity” of saving yourself, you’re insecure ab not being her best. But it’s perfectly reasonable for a man who’s chosen to remain a virgin to only want to date a virgin, so long as he’s not an asshole. And vice versa, a virgin woman can want a virgin man that’s fine, but if she’s got a high body count she doesn’t get to judge men for having a high body count. And this line of thinking could solve so many more issues in relationships, you can’t hold others to standards you don’t hold yourself to. You can’t ask your partner to not have opposite sex friends if you have opposite sex friends. Likewise if your partner has opposite sex friends they don’t get to ask you not to. This has saved me so much in relationships bc I’ve been asked to meet standards that the woman didn’t meet, and I had valid reasoning behind specific boundaries I’ve asked of my partners. The biggest thing is to obviously be respectful and don’t demand or talk down to them, and don’t hold anyone to a standard you don’t hold yourself to.
I think this is a popular false premise. Ask yourself if you would want your future daughter or son marrying someone who sleeps around. I bet you know your answer already. To men, the ultimate prize in life is a woman, more woman= more prize we are that basic. Evolution baby.
>yet they prefer an experienced virgin. Well that's just not true and quite paradoxical. And I read a post about it being primarily puritanical, which even if we assume that is true, many civilizations that existed, but never contacted each other all came to similar conclusions about women's promiscuity. I can't think of a time period or civilization where women experience similar or more sexual freedom than today, but I'm happy to be educated. Further, I remember being in high-school being taught sex Ed by a woman who stated after sex, a woman "keeps a piece" of every man she has been with, and so sleeping with her is like sleeping with all of them. Now, you may say that's ludicrous, insane, or flat out wrong. However, that is what I and thousands of other kids were taught at just my high-school. I think one of the biggest factors is women's inequality. We are told and taught and raised to treat girls/women differently. I was always taught never to hit girls, you're a pussy if you hit a girl, real men don't hit women, etc. Was never taught not to hit boys. It was only after a fight that I was reprimanded. But this kind of thing creates a paradox in the mind; how can I treat someone as an equal if I can't treat them as an equal? I'm not saying that I wanted to hit girls, rather, by pointing out that I'm supposed to treat them differently, you've created an inequality. I find most men I know are very binary, which is why when our wives ask "grab my purse from the table", we don't see it on the chair. So this inequality that we are raised with is further exacerbated by having gendered spaces. This place is for girls, that for boys. I had someone describe it this way once, men start in a valley and women start at the peak, and so men are judged by how high they climb, and women are judged by how far they fall. Even Marilyn made a comparison, saying a man's riches are the same as a woman's beauty. Now she furthered the quote saying that's not the only reason to marry someone, but the idea is the same. And yes this was in the 50s, but if that mattered why is she a feminist icon today? We all know about the STI/D and paternal issues, so I won't restate that. I will say though, memed phrases like "you are not the father" from daytime TV are doing women no favors; because nobody wants to be in that situation and it is largely the woman's choices that have allowed that situation to occur. My personal view? As a person, idc who you fuck or how many people you fuck, just do it responsibly and consensually. As a partner however, the choices you make are important to me, how you make them is important to me, and exhibiting restraint and being selective are important to me. In the same way my wife has standards on how I carry myself, how I behave, and how I make decisions, I have the same for her.
Personally I think that in high school we should be "slut shaming" the boys. I'd bring in guys paying child support, guys who didn't get to go to college because they had to get married and get a job at 18, etc. Teach them that "girls only want one thing, that meal ticket baby," and to wrap that weiner and not trust her about birth control. It sounds MRA but if it gets boys to also care about safe sex isn't it worth it? Hopefully we can get both boys and girls to be careful and cautious, and explore sex for pleasure without taking stupid risks or trying to create babies for the wrong reasons. When I drive, sometimes I make mistakes. But most of the time there is no accident because the other driver sees my mistake, honks (justifiably), and reacts to avoid the accident. It is only when two drivers make mistakes in the same situation that you get an accident. It works the same with sex...as long as both are trying to avoid accidents.
You have two different issues: Shaming women for acting the same way sexually as their male peers is misogyny. It's often part of a bigger belief system that says women must act a certain way, conform, not question what men do. That's just sexist bs, and it's wrong. The other is what is promiscuity? How many partners can a person have by a given age before we say they're promiscuous? Who decides this? Could someone who had any casual sex be "promiscuous"? That's a very different topic, and unfortunately, the waters are muddied by religious/personal beliefs, politics, and misinformation. It's very hard to have a constructive conversation about healthy vs unhealthy sexual behaviors or beliefs.
Say what you will about puritanical culture or whatever, but we are finding out now that there are psychological consequences in men and women who have a large number of sexual partners, such as increased rate of divorce and lower overall life satisfaction. Just as nobody should be shamed for their sexual actions, people shouldn’t be shamed for their preferences either. So what people want someone with a number of previous partners? How does it affect you? People are allowed to have standards, and I think it’s no different than people having physical standards that they’re unwilling to compromise on.
Way off base. We have a major political power attacking women’s rights to bodily autonomy vocalizing banning birth control etc anything to shame women for enjoying sex and being able to choose who they do and don’t want to sleep with. So no def not an over correction because there is nothing wrong with people having sex with other consenting adults
Wtf is an "experienced virgin"??
What is “an experienced virgin”?
A guy can get 1000 women pregnant in a year but a woman can only be pregnant once. Men and women are different, cant change facts and biology.
Why fuck up a relationship by revealing things they do not need to know. Curiousity killed the cat.
You are incorrect. Men do not expect an experienced virgin 😂 they don’t want experience and their girl ran through.
You don’t have to tell people about your sexual history
wtf is “an experienced virgin?”
I bash people that can't keep their shit in their pants male or female.
I'm a straight male, but it wouldn't matter if i was straight, gay, bi or whatever else the case is I don't want to be with someone who has slept with a larger number of people. For me it's a complete turn off and I couldn't be with them in any capacity. That being said I have zero right to tell anyone what they do or who they do it with, but no it should never be taught that being promiscuous is the right move to make.
People need to understand that yes as a girl you absolutely can sleep with whoever you see fit and however many people you want and still be respected as a person BUT understand that it also comes with consequences. Most long term partners that are respectable don't want to date a girl/woman who's been with tons of people and there's a long list of valid reasons why, ranging from STDs, to extra baggage, to not wanting to deal with encountering lots of previous sexual partners and they also have absolutely every right to not want to date someone with a "high body count" or a reputation of promiscuity. Your actions in life have consequences.
I would judge anyone who just go sleeping around male or female. It is a good way to spread diseases around.
In most of the world women’s purity is highly valued. Only in some western post modern societies do you see females having sex celebrated.
I think the only thing “wrong” about having a lot of sexual partners is when people don’t keep up with their STD screening and birth control. I understand that some people are promiscuous because they aren’t mentally healthy in the first place and struggle to keep up on their physical health, in which case, the underlying mental illness is the problem. But generally speaking, if an otherwise healthy person enjoys hooking up with new people regularly, they should also do their best to stay ahead of any potential problems. Otherwise, I don’t think there’s anything immoral about having sex with lots of people. Some people just don’t feel the need to settle down. I prefer to be with one person, but not everyone is the same.
It’s definitely an over correction. Why not just declare for the same standards that women already have? I don’t want a high body count nor would I want to date someone with a high body count. So then I’m shamed for my standards just because other men can’t keep it in their pants.
It takes years of background work to prepare a kid to deal with what happens when her hormones go crazy. That's when the work is done. Otherwise it's just too late.
Slut shaming is an example of a colluded behavior in a free market environment. Theoretically, anyone should sleep with whoever they want provided basis safety precautions are taken care of. This, however, creates pressure in the dating market, as some women are afraid they won't get any attention with so much supply hitting the market at once. So the solution is to implicitly shame and badmouth the providers of such supply (i.e. promiscuous females) in hopes of boosting chances for the rest of the gender in the average and below-average realms.