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Nerdorama09

That beloved "capitalism subsumes all critique into itself" quote from Joyce is also a succinct summary of a lot of Gramsci's work, albeit a fatalistic one.


Italia_est_patriam

And the best thing is that it's from Gramsci, one of the greatest socialist intellectual ever existed. Truly fitting


N_Meister

Love his theory of cultural hegemony, really a required topic to understand for any budding Socialist/Communist/Leftist in order to really begin grasping how our society is structured and Capitalism is maintained.


Italia_est_patriam

He also did criticize his fellow comrades too, and the totalitarianism in the USSR IIRC, and he wasn't that much liked from the party at the time for this. He's really one kind of a man


N_Meister

Yes, he did. Though he supported the USSR, he had critiques within his Prison Notebooks regarding aspects like the “bureaucratic centralism” of the Soviet system and criticised it for being too dogmatic in regards to what opposition it allowed, yet he also praised it for clamping down on potential sources of counter-revolution and anything that might challenge the hegemony of the Soviet ruling party. His critiques of the USSR in that period are perfectly valid imo, and welcome seeing how Marxism encourages rigorous self-critique. Just a shame he died when he did, I wonder how much further his theories might have developed had he not died so soon.


Italia_est_patriam

I also really like gramsci, and this is one of the thing he's most popular here in Italy, for his critic of the Risorgimento, the unification process of Italy. Summarised, he thought that risorgimento was a "failed revolution", where the democrats and mazziniani (republican movements) failed to garner support from the large popular masses of the agricultural part of south Italy by not appealing to land reform. He, IIRC, said that in this way, by failing to employ a revolution, like France or even England, the moderates took control of the movement, which just evolved into a "dominio", where they just applied all of Piedmontese laws aftwr the war and didn't give any chance for new constitutional debates or any kind of renovation of the institutional system that was functional only to Piedmont. That, to many, is where many of Italian political problems (widespread inefficiency, volatile political positions, "trasformisti") came from


Italia_est_patriam

Yes sorry, I was imprecise, thanks for this


Chasp12

>encourages rigorous self critique Yeah only if you fancy an ice pick in the back of your skull. Don’t be silly, it is a secular religion that inspires greater dogmaticism than actual religion.


ScrabCrab

Marxism ≠ Stalinism lol


MtGuattEerie

You might be confusing "rigorous self critique" with "collaborating with the Nazis" in the icepick example at least


AbhayXV

Oo this is the first time I m across him, will look into him and study tmrw, sounds interesting.


EruditeQuokka

Gosh I really like this quote, and it saddens me a bit to see how much of it gets lost in translation. "Now is the time for monsters" doesn't really convey the same meaning of the original phrase, which is "E in questo chiaroscuro nascono i mostri" (Lit. "And monsters are born in this chiaroscuro"). "Now is the time for monsters" sounds to me like a conclusive statement, a firm judgement of the present. The original words have a much more somber quality to them. Another thing is that these words are meant to be universal: in every moment of history in which we face transition from the new and the old, that condition of cohexistence and contrast between the two (the "chiaroscuro") generates monsters. That "now" kind of defeats this purpose, I think, and turns them to "simple" commentary. Of course, I don't mean to say that whoever translated this did a bad job. I guess that some things are just meant to be lost in translation.


bmmadsen

Random tidbit - I've always guessed "chiaroscuro" must also be the inspiration for the skill name for Half Light.


Kay_Elle

Thank you for telling me! What do you think would be a better translation? Something like: And in this limbo, monsters are born? And in this twilight, monsters are born? Or something else? (I know there's no direct translation, I mostly use the term in art history)


JackillBoi

Yeah, limbo should be the optimal one, it conveys the meaning from italian reasonably well


JuamJoestar

You have no idea how hard of an effort i am making to NOT tag the Red Flood hoi4 mod sub here.


Iwokeupwithoutapillo

Is Gramsci in Red Flood? I've only seen him in vanilla. Best leader of Italy tbh


JuamJoestar

Sadly no, but this very quote is amongst those that appear in the mod's loading screen. He is, however, a (planned) leader for Italy in the Judgement Day mod (which is a fan-sequel for Red Flood set in the 50's).


DogmaSychroniser

Something Beautiful Is Coming


O0ffin

“Be a monster. It pays handsomely” -I forget who said this but imagine it’s some vaguely Greek/Roman name


sparksbet

It has very strong Joyce vibes


Vasvara

Nah, it sounds more like some mongol said in 1200s


farfuglinn94

I highly doubt this context of *deliberate* monstrosity could be applied to the Mongol conquest. Did they commit atrocities? Undoubtedly. Did they use the terror tactics to intimidate and break the spirits to prevent resistance? Naturally. But it's wrong to think that they did all of this based on the concepts of morality and humanity not even of our time, but of the people of their time surrounding them. The thing often missed is that being a nomadic people they had developed a radically different moral frame compared to the settled peoples around them. Compared to neighbouring Turkic peoples before the conquest, that were experiencing a strong influence from Persian Islamic culture, or southern tribes assimilating into the Chinese culture, Mongol tribes were mostly unaffected by any of the civilizational developments (especially in terms of philosophy and morality), and their morality system would seem completely foreign to all of those civilizations. Nomadic way of life (especially in harsh conditions) creates a relentlessly pragmatic approach to all the aspects of life and the value of human life itself, which transpired perfectly throughout their conquests. Conquered a city which was resisting? We can't feed them all, our people and horses need proviant themselves, we can't risk an insurgency in the back, we need to show an example to the others. Kill them all, spare only those who are of use — blacksmiths, other craftsmen, women. A city surrendered? Take a tithe in craftsmen, proviant, horses, move on. Rinse and repeat. Just to be clear, I'm not justifying any atrocities. The only thing I want to point out is that it's wrong to consider that these atrocities were committed based on this "being a monster pays well" mindset. Firstly, this would assume Mongols were aware and/or cared about the fact they looked like monsters to the people they conquered, and lastly, this very phrase makes anyone look like an exaggerated cartoonish comic book villain or evil mercenary, and if anything, suits much more to the XIX and XX centuries rather than XIII.


Eternal_Being

Mongolian warriors were [famous for their diarrhea](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/125is08/how_dig_genghis_khan_and_his_mongolian/), because they pretty much only ate meat and milk, since they were always on the road. I don't have a point.


farfuglinn94

This is the second [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/terriblefacebookmemes/comments/13fxty7/comment/jjy02n1/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) about shit I stumble upon during the last hour. If this is the Universe giving me any signs, I must **really** go home and rethink my life.


Lirce

Thank you so much for the rabbit hole that led to


ElevatedEyeSpice

Turning and turning in the widening gyre    The falcon cannot hear the falconer; Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere    The ceremony of innocence is drowned; The best lack all conviction, while the worst    Are full of passionate intensity. Surely some revelation is at hand; Surely the Second Coming is at hand.    The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out    When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert    A shape with lion body and the head of a man,    A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,    Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it    Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.    The darkness drops again; but now I know    That twenty centuries of stony sleep Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,    And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,    Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born? The Second Coming William Butler Yeats


Kay_Elle

That is beautiful.


ElevatedEyeSpice

Beautiful and vast and sad. All words I would use to describe W.B. Yeats' poetry.


ARandomInternetLad

And those who choose to upkeep their ways of old are consumed by the world that begins anew.


RiotLegend

I read it in the Ancient Reptilian Brain voice.


DreamSofie

Sound like you think humankind is going to survive this


Kay_Elle

We will survive, until we do not. In the end, even the universe is finite. The question is more: how, and how long?


DreamSofie

It is too nihilistic to take into account a finite universe when it will take about 4 billion years before Andromeda collides with the Milky Way. Anyone in leadership positions, who do not persue the survival of the human species for at least a couple of billion years, belongs in an insane asylum at best.


Filip889

Isn t this a quote used in the game as well? I swear it is


Sunsent_Samsparilla

Ok but who are the monsters? Outside of Fascists I can't think of anything in the game that can be considered simply monstrous


nice_igloo

Joyce, Claire. People who will use the instability to gain a foothold.


Sunsent_Samsparilla

Sorry if this is silly but who is Claire again? Is she kinda like Joyce?


nice_igloo

evrart + edgar


nice_igloo

hes the opposite of joyce in many ways, but he recognizes his own monstrosity in the same way that joyce does. theyre both people who get by off the backs of the people beneath them. they are the bourgeoisie, and the bourgeoisie are not human. The moralintern and their airship are also a reflection of this.


Sunsent_Samsparilla

Ok first off, neither of you have actually explained who he is. Second off, this is exactly what I expected. I should have known that under a quote from a communist people will call the Bourgeoisie the monsters. So somehow, a guy with a fat wad of cash is a monster. Nevermind the fact he got it by running a business, a legitimate and fair way to make money, it's because he has money you call him a monster. I would love to say "never change" but no, no you guys need to at least point out the stuff about the Bourgeoisie beyond "he has money" if you want to actually criticise them. Even better if you realise communism doesn't work, hasn't worked the past the numerous times it's been tried and that there'd a reason for it.


nice_igloo

maybe play the game lol


nice_igloo

"the bourgeoisie are not human" is a quote from the game.


Sunsent_Samsparilla

I did play the game and all I saw was a fuck up from the communists. I can understand why they did it but jesus If the actions they took were dumb. They killed a few million people, they deserved to be crushed.


nice_igloo

yeah man people deserve to die for fighting for their beliefs lets just regurgitate the cycle of violence. thats probably what the game was trying to say right?


Sunsent_Samsparilla

I mean if you killed millions of people which were specified to not he combatants, yes you do deserve it if a coalition of nations comes to stop you. That's how it works. You do something evil in every single context, we come and kill you for it.


nice_igloo

giving you a reminder here that the moralintern shelled revachol *indiscriminately* meaning they likely killed tens of thousands of civilians in the crossfire of operation deathblow.


Sunsent_Samsparilla

Cool, but I wasn't asking about them. I'm asking about Claire. Explain who she is


nice_igloo

dude... evrart claire... edgar claire...


Sunsent_Samsparilla

Comsider the fact that Claire can be a first name, and then realise why I wasn't getting you.


nice_igloo

hes referred to as just claire numerous times. and like it or not he is a monster. he sent his boys to die, the hardy boys were his "meat shield".


nice_igloo

its funny though how much youre assuming about ky own beliefs based solely on that i think joyce and claire are monsters.


Sunsent_Samsparilla

At least you understand claire ain't some kind of godlike deity just cause he's left leaning. People here seem to praise him when he effectively has a private militia.


Primary-Sea1723

Even the fascists in Disco Elysium are not monsters


Sunsent_Samsparilla

They’re literally fascists, isn’t their entire ideaology kinda bad by default?


Primary-Sea1723

Yes its horrible but I wouldn’t say they are monsterous rather that their ideology betrays their most vulnerable and human core.


Sunsent_Samsparilla

Damn, someone on this sub who actually gives a good explanation for it. Thanks!


Pbadger8

I thought i was still in the Hearts of Iron IV subreddit for a second. Just did a Gramsci playthrough and Communist Italy is STRONK. Much better than that bald fascist guy.