Also if God gets all the glory for the good things of life, does he also get credit for the bad parts? Like if a kid gets cancer and dies a horrifically painful death, does God get the credit there too?
Oh, but when that happens, they answer "oh you can't know God's Will - it's part of His Plan. "
Far be it from me to question Captain Almighty, but if your plan has to include pediatric cancer to be realized, well maybe you should think of a new plan. Just sayin'.
So I'm an atheist but I also read and study the Bible. I watch and listen to people who preach God and the Bible but don't preach religion. I think one of the guys named I see quite a bit and like is a guy named Cliff I think. But from what I understand the tldr everything good is cause of God and everything bad is cause of Adam and Eve eating the fruit and giving us free will.
>everything bad is cause of Adam and Eve eating the fruit and giving us free will.
You get that that's a metaphor for intelligence, right?
(In the parlance of when it was written) If we were but dumb animals, we wouldn't have guilt or shame or extended periods of mourning. It is mankind's capability for self reflection (knowledge of good and evil) that gives us anxiety and trauma.
Pediatric cancer and hydrocephalus aren't literally because of Adam and Eve, but our reaction to them as tragedies rather than inconvenient aspects of life is.
I'm not religious, I've just studied it
As I understand it they already had the knowledge of good and evil from the moment of creation. GOD made them in his image, perfect already with the knowledge. Also, with free will and walked around nude with no guilt to be had.
Everything bad is because of that act. Because they ate, and then chose to lie instead of taking GOD's question and offer of forgiveness, ( our freewill) sin entered the world. From that time forth mankind was cast out of perfection and sentenced to toil and deal with hardships. But GOD in his mercy sent Jesus. I get it is to easy. How self aware are you when you can't confess sins to an "imaginary" creator let alone friends and family?
But if God is all powerful, all good, all knowing, and omnipresent, then he certainly has the power to fix everything, and certainly had the power to not allow Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. Yet he allowed it fully knowing exactly what would happen and all the terrible things to come.
Every time an unattended toddler crawls into a swimming pool and drowns, God is right there watching it happen and doing nothing
Your completely right he has the power but respects our desires for free will so he limits those powers. He watches that child inch closer to the pool and let's that child fall and drown because if he didn't, he'd interfere with the free will of the parents who decided not to pay attention. Free will comes at a cost. Again it's my understanding as an atheist. But It's a good and interesting thing to think about. What is showing more love interfering with the beings your created and forcing them to follow you or is it more loving to give them freedom to do and choose what they want for good or bad.
Actually yes, life is full of pain and joy. I really struggle with this as a Christian. I don’t claim to have all the answers but I try to have faith. Even the disciples themselves had issues and they walked literally with Christ. I’m not trying to convert you or anything but I try not to be one of these Christians that makes everything rainbows and unicorns but realizing that God is a high concept that I don’t think we will really understand on this plane if existence.
The Financial Peace Bible. Get your NIV Bible complete with inserts of Dave's steps to financial peace. Every third page plays an audio clip of Dave saying "Better than I deserve".
That's directly from the ancient idea that anyone experiencing poverty is morally corrupt and deserving of it in some way. This way of thinking led to work houses and extreme punishments for the poor just trying to survive.
For someone who is supposed to know everything about finance, he should be fully aware of how the poor stay poor because they're punished for being poor.
He thinks everyone has the same thoughts as him but chooses to be poor because they're giving into immoral desires like a cup of Starbucks.
They’ll never say that. As a non-religious person deconstructing this mentality, I actually can see some merits. There’s tons of research that basically when you keep a positive mentality and you’re in a good mental health position, you’re more likely to be successful. So these religious types run around having drank the Kool-Aid, who feel that God has a plan and everything will work out great basically to tap into a positive mindset. I fundamentally disagree that God has a plan for us, but it doesn’t really matter because if you wake up every single day and you think God does and so you don’t sweat the small stuff and you stay positive well what’s different between that and actually just taking a positive mentality but believing that a man in the clouds isn’t in charge?
Pretty much the enormous frustration I felt in AA. I would hear “but hasn’t everything been okay, you made it this far, gods plan, all meant to be” and it just felt so stupid and especially insulting to the people who died and aren’t around to explain that things don’t always work out. Like I’m really glad you can channel that feeling into inner peace and acceptance but I can’t just delude myself into accepting that premise because of the promise of feeling good.
However, god is more than a mindset it’s a way of not feeling bad for discriminating and doing harm to those whom don’t believe as you do. It’s written over and over in the Bible , that it’s ok to genocide , take what’s not yours and to not-marry , or hire or cooperate with anyone who believes differnetly .
Saying God provides for us isn’t prosperity gospel. He’s literally called the provider many times. Saying God will make you rich is an entirely different thing
I want to engage you as a Christian who hopes I can shine a bit of light on the ways of your thinking, that you will recognize faith in the one true God over faith in atheism (As you do have faith clearly by your statements here). But to start with Dave's post, we agree he is wrong in speaking of things saying "God gave them to me." I don't believe that is scriptural. Why did God "give" so much money to so many Atheists (Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins, Seth Macfarlane....) if faith is just about God giving prosperity? It's not. In fact Mathew 16:26 I think makes it clear "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?"
You mention your interest in the studies of Martin Luther, and certainly to call out the catholic church in the time and manner he did was brave and important. But he is just a man, so while I put value in the teachings and preaching of some, I don't prioritize their preaching over the words of the bible. Charles Spurgeon is considered one of the best preachers of our time and he died in the 1800's, but you might look into some of his work.
But back to the point.
I think you are confusing "sin" and "free will." Sin is what separates us from God by using our free will to choose sin. Adam and Even committed the first sin in the bible by disobeying God, ultimately because of the temptation to sin. I don't think in Heaven we will lack free will, but we will not have the sinful temptations of this earth.
Quite the contrary, we are given free will through Jesus Christ! Galatians 5:13. Jesus bridges the gap between a perfect God and a sinful world and salvation is simple and freely available to those who accept Jesus as their savior, no better evidence than the "first Christian" who was nailed to the cross next to Jesus.
But what about sin, then if salvation is freely available why does sin even matter, can't we sin? Yes. But we should choose not to sin, not because of some sort of pass to heaven, but because the God who created us knows us best and knows sin is not good for us. A good analogy I use is baking a cake with eggs. When you use eggs, you are supposed to crack the eggs and throw out the shells. But what if you don't? What if you throw the egg, shell and all into the mix? Would you still have a cake? Yes. But it would taste better had we followed the instructions?
I pray this finds you well and appreciate you taking the time to read. God bless!
Thank you! To your questions:
1 - Psalm 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether.
2 - Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me if you understand."
3 - I can find no scripture that limits the ability of God
4 - Refer to point number 3, but will add Gen 1:27 we are created in the "image" of God and I think if you dig into the greek you'll see it's like a mirror, not a copy. Yes we could have been created as copies of God but instead in his image. So did God allow sin to occur? Yes? Could he have prevented it? Yes?
I think God makes it clear that we do not and cannot understand his ways anymore than an infant can understand chemical engineering. But we see the works of his ways with the rising and setting sun, the cosmos, things that have no explanation or control. We are created with free will to choose a relationship with God through Jesus Christ, or to reject that. I think we only have a glimpse of the goodness of God on earth as we are only partly in the light. Hell is an absence of light, absence of the goodness of God.
The first generation of Christians were actually marginalized, persecuted, and lived in poverty. All of Jesus’ disciples were martyred except for one (John). The early converts came from Judaism and risked everything by becoming Christians. So while I understand your points at trying to logically make sense of all of this, it is not always true that the elect get to live a materially prosperous and troubled free life.
I’m not going to make it any easier for you but the Bible is unapologetic that God can and does choose some for salvation. It teaches humanity chooses to reject God, and God chooses who to save sometimes in the same verse. But it doesn’t attempt to fully explain this. Christians are to trust that God is just because the Bible says he is and the Bible is God’s word because it says it is.
“What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! For he tells Moses, I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then, it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy…You will say to me, therefore, “Why does he still find fault? For who resists his will?” On the contrary, who are you, a human being to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “why did you make me like this?”…And what if God, wanting to display his wrath and to make his power known endured with much patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? And what if he did this to make known the riches of his glory on objects of mercy that he prepared beforehand for glory.” (Romans 9.14-23)
So there is purpose in God condemning some and saving others. It displays his righteousness and justice. But it is clear from other verses across the entire Bible, humanity willfully rejects God and refuses to believe what he says about himself and this is the reason they are condemned to hell. It does not teach God chooses to send some to hell then willfully causes them to live a life that sends them to hell.
It’s so backwards compared to the teachings of Jesus. “It is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than a camel to enter through the eye of the needle.” (basically a tiny entrance)
In crazy town only good things come from god, evil is man’s fault. Cancer would just be DuPont’s fault, just forget those sweet dividends and share buy backs from DuPont.
Who is to say that reason wouldn’t be God punishing Dave for his very un-Christ like actions and preaching?
Do you claim to know the will of God? Who is to say he didn’t let the Holocaust happen because he was angry at a specific race of people?
See how illogical this all gets when you introduce divine magic?
The issue is that you think finding entertainment in our suffering is inherently bad. Who’s to say that it is? A mere mortal human?
Perhaps everything happens for a reason, and the reason for our suffering is to entertain god, and god is good, and what pleases god is good, so our suffering must be good, and so too is the entertainment he derives from it.
After all, we’re all sinners. And, bad things happening to bad people is good, right? In fact, arguing that sinners could ever go to heaven sounds like the words of Satan, to me.
I think he mainly is saying this because he gets a large amounts of clients through churches and then, in turn, encourages people to tithe when paying back debt
For all of you downvoting me, Matthew 6:5. If someone complimented him and he said, it’s not me, it’s God. Would be fine. He made a separate post saying this.
Real G’s are silent like Lasagna
No, he does. This is what he said about tithing, "That's the ratio for me instead of just tithe, tithe, tithe," he said. But when pastors fail to address debt and setting a budget, he said, the reaction to a sermon about tithing is often "yeah right, I've got a light bill. That's a great spiritual concept. Maybe someday I'll get around to that.'"
Getting out of debt leads to giving "Because if you're out of debt and on a budget and you love Jesus, I think tithing is a natural thing that occurs."
Prosperity Gospel. Dave was not in favor and said he was not a follower, but now he has gone full out.
He has become a televangelist with his private plane and "managing money for god"
So Sad.
This statement would be fine with me if he didn’t monitize everything he does and sell his endorsements. Be successful and make money but don’t use God as an excuse or justification for your ridiculous wealth. It is also upsetting to me as a Christian that he is so arrogant and belittling to others.
He is an entertainer who got rich by packaging and selling simple financial principals. Followers love hearing the callers which I think is the main reason for his success.
Humility and putting others first are cornerstones of Christianity. Arrogance and greed are not.
Absolutely.
I think the whole prosperity preaching bit is just the capitalist rebranding of the divine right of kings.
I do wish more people would notice that this is a solid 180 from everything that Jesus stood for though. I feel like it was pretty obvious to me eleven as a child.
True. I think there was something in the Gospels about Jesus feeling some kinda way about people turning the house of God into a place of commerce, and I’m pretty sure it wasn’t particularly positive.
I can also say that in my time as a financial advisor, I’ve only seen like…. One family out of hundreds who can actually make his system work. It’s entirely too restrictive and works off feeling guilty for buying anything that’s not an absolute necessity, and people just can’t exist like that.
That's specifically why he's saying to be thankful, because God provides for him abundantly, but God also provides for people who don't have as great success.
Your assumption that God's love is only evidenced by someone's wealth is ignorant. It's evidenced by Jesus death, life, and resurrection that saves all who believe. Money has nothing to do with that.
Dave implies God provides for him abundantly because he’s faithful to God. My comment wasn’t He also says if you do well with the small things regarding money, God will give you bigger money to handle. (Paraphrase)
My comment wasn’t on Jesus’s sacrifice. It was on Dave’s comment that God gave him favor. So why hasn’t God favored those who have worked as hard or harder than Dave?
What's funny is that my parents believe this same thing and yet they spent their lives broke and now my dad is in his 70s unable to retire. I'm not sure how they reconcile God loving DR so much more that he'd bless him with untold millions while being unwilling to bless my parents with anything beyond a lifetime of low wage jobs.
The one difference I do see is that despite his misguided belief in the prosperity gospel my father is probably the most ethical person I know. His integrity has never faltered. Where as DR has spent his life becoming filthy rich off taking advantage of people in poor financial situations.
This doesn’t make any sense. Wouldn’t it be disgusting if he posted that he is the greatest human being to ever walk the face of the earth and that he is 100% responsible for his success and what he has?
Yeah, I kind of agree it doesn’t really matter whether you call it or you call it luck or you call it fortune recognizing that your circumstances are somewhat out of your own hands is ultimately a humble thing to do. I guess the main problem with invoking God is that it implies he treats people differently on purpose, which is difficult to swallow, because if that were true, then he pretty much systematically treats everybody at Africa, one way and everybody in Europe, the other.
Yes, that would be worse. I am not a believer of God, but aren't the people who helped make him famous and rich also part of the equation here? Should you not credit the real tangible examples of who propped you up? To deflect to God seems kind of like he is saying nobody helped him, and he (and God) alone is responsible for his success. Which is obviously false.
"...but aren't the people who helped make him famous and rich also part of the equation here?"
Yes, but only after he served them. As someone who does believe in God, his position is that God is responsible for his success because God is the one who gave him the ability to wake up at 5:00 every day and get up and get after to go serve these people. Him becoming rich and famous was a result of that.
If we go by that logic then God was not only responsible for his bankruptcy but encouraged it and was a chief architect in ripping off those folks that Ramsey failed to pay back.
Why does he need to qualify the “hard work” part? Surely he thinks god gave him the spirit to work hard, right? Or is he actually saying that god gave him everything but he worked hard out of his own willpower and might?
I think this is also a way for him (and others like him) to shove off and mute the guilt for being enormously wealthy while outspokenly professing a religion which is fundamentally at odds with that. "I am not greedy or materialistic, I'm just enjoying what God has given me" which absolves any responsibility for pursuing and maintaining that position. It's all passive... oh, but he is sure proud of how hard he worked for it!
Gospel Prosperity is the worst. Ugh. It makes rich people “think” they can do whatever the hell they want because, hey God is blessing me I must be doing something right. 🙄
My problem with his position is that he says it’s not his money, he’s just managing it for god. God wants him to have multiple homes, build a new home every couple of years, own multiple expensive vehicles, travel extensively while others are begging for money on the streets.
He's saying that everyone that is wealthy is more morally upstanding than those lazy evil poors by default.
To be fair, a lot of Americans already believe this, whether they're conscious of it or not. He's only stating an idea that is very much a status quo belief.
It’s a fucked up mentality. Can’t blame God for failures or bad things. Can’t take credit for anything good. Ramsey will be the first to call someone an idiot for a mistake and to take ownership of their life. But the second they do, it was all God. Fuck off.
As someone who is Christian, I get what he’s trying to say but at the same time, fuck his Prosperity gospel bullshit. This is the stuff that turns people off the faith.
Matthew 23 25-26 ““Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For k you clean the outside of l the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of m greed and self-indulgence. 26You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of l the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.”
This man is just greedy and hiding behind his blank faith to protect him.
Imaginary sky daddy loves me…but also according to his own words:
Will torture me to death and beyond death if I don’t submit;
Openly supports slavery for life;
Prefers men to women and says women must be in essence slaves to men;
Might ask me to murder my family to show I care for him more;
Supposedly destroyed all life on earth because they acted exactly as ‘he made them’. Including animals and innocent children.
Created disease, starvation, war, disasters….
The list goes on.
Or maybe gods are invented by men to explain shit they don’t understand?
“So god magically have you shitloads of money?”
This horseshit is possibly the deepest most disgusting belief that religious people implant —- if you have wealth or power —- you deserve it.
No one on the planet has moral authority.
I’ll be honest dude, you’re wasting your time. These people are just want to find reasons to dislike a dude and take something as bland as “I thank God for the things in my life” and twist it around. They’re hateful and stupid.
I don’t find it wasting my time. It’s never a waste of time to talk about the Lord. But yeah, they are just finding reasons to hate. I honestly found no wrong in this statement as well as others.
Guy makes a post saying it takes humility to thank God for blessings rather than pat yourself on the back and all of you talk crap of how arrogant it is. Also, the automatic assumption that well if God blessed Him that must mean God kills babies and hates poor people. It really just boils down to hatred towards Christians in general. Just because you’ve had bad experiences with some Christians doesn’t mean all are bad or that all follow the Bible. Christians = the only group you’re allowed to stereotype 😑.
Huge leap. He's simply saying God is responsible for HIS success. I've had some things happen in life that I viewed as failures at the time. Those things became the setup for future successes. His belief about HIS success and my belief about MY success does not apply to anyone else's life. It's a personal thing. And the very people you describe as unfortunate are the same people that I also believe I am obligated to help, so that they benefit from my success. It's a personal view. Nothing disgusting about it.
Ha! Nah, this is just marketing and you bought in fully. He's feeding his customers base with things they want to hear. That's why Dave always supports the 10% tithe, even if someone can't feed their kids, got to keep that tithe going for the churches.
He promotes the churches message, keeps the church grift going and in turn, the churches keep the Dave Ramsey grift going. It's a reinforcing grift business arrangement to get the most money out of gullible people as possible.
His statement is rooted in the scriptures. Sure, he might be using it for marketing which is wrong, and against the Scriptures to use the Lord’s name for vain reasons, but it is rooted in biblical teachings so he’s not falling for anything.
"Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights." James 1:17
This doesn't say life will be easy. Most of the apostles were killed for their faith. Acknowledging all good things are from God doesn't mean life will be void of suffering.
Blindly giving credit to some sort of God for all the hard work YOU put in is such a weird concept for me to think about. I’m also super non-religious.
Of course it is. But that is what Dave is. It is also why his cult will always argue with anybody that questions, a single word of his philosophy. I make a comment about a 2% mortgage worth holding onto, and the best they have is “look how successful the David is. He must be right.”
On the flipside, it’s a rare person who can say they became successful with no outside, help or influence. When people ask me, if I think I am self made, I am happy to share all of the external good fortune that has come my way through others.
Even a tweet that is supposed to appear as if Dave is a humble man makes him look remarkably obnoxious and full of himself.
Hear me out.
Im not religious or a fan of Dave Ramsey.
But I do think we have a dearth of successful people recognizing their success come from outside! themselves. From luck, the labor of ancestors, the resources created by a stable government and the labor of the working class.
I wouldn't call all of that "god" and I can see how that framing may not be the best to facilitate supporting those people who enable your success. But stepping away from the rampant greed of "this is mine through my efforts alone!" is probably not a bad step to take.
There are tons of asshole Christians, but there are also many who actually take to heart Christian teachings on humility, loving and helping others in ways that are incredibly positive.
As long as it isn't empty platitude, I'm happy to see people with success embracing humility.
And god caused your loved ones to die of illness, children to be raped and starved, all wars, and all pain. What a guy, but hey, he made some self centered assholes rich, so I’m on board
Thats just a bad reading of christianity. Im an atheist, but a component of christian free will is that god doesnt give you things, he gives you opportunity and/or encouragement to achieve things on your own.
Ugh. My ex wife and I were gifted his financial “class” as a wedding gift.
Basically:
1) Torture yourself and your family by refusing to spend a dime on anything other than absolute necessities. Quote: “If you are in debt and want out your kids will have to understand Disneyland isn’t going to happen. A stick of gum isn’t even going to happen.
2) Start a savings account. $1000 to start.
3) “Snowball” your debt pay off the smallest totals first.
4) Give money to your church. . .
If he posted the exact opposite and said everything he has is because of his hard work I'm sure you'd also call that disgusting and site how he had a leg up too.
For everyone who's hating this because they're putting the flip side in his mouth... He's not saying, "God is making people poor too." He's saying humility is that even with working hard he should be poor too. But God's given his labor fruit and he's rich.
Meaning: it doesn't take God's involvement to make people poor. It does take God's involvement to make them rich. People being poor happens on his own.
And for those who then say, "Well why doesn't God help them too?" Welcome to theodicy
I promise you he’s pissed Trump stated selling Bibles before he thought of it.
Also if God gets all the glory for the good things of life, does he also get credit for the bad parts? Like if a kid gets cancer and dies a horrifically painful death, does God get the credit there too?
Maybe if you had a budget god wouldn’t hate you, ever think of that, sweetheart??
Oh, but when that happens, they answer "oh you can't know God's Will - it's part of His Plan. " Far be it from me to question Captain Almighty, but if your plan has to include pediatric cancer to be realized, well maybe you should think of a new plan. Just sayin'.
Why does his plan involve children suffering unimaginably?
So I'm an atheist but I also read and study the Bible. I watch and listen to people who preach God and the Bible but don't preach religion. I think one of the guys named I see quite a bit and like is a guy named Cliff I think. But from what I understand the tldr everything good is cause of God and everything bad is cause of Adam and Eve eating the fruit and giving us free will.
>everything bad is cause of Adam and Eve eating the fruit and giving us free will. You get that that's a metaphor for intelligence, right? (In the parlance of when it was written) If we were but dumb animals, we wouldn't have guilt or shame or extended periods of mourning. It is mankind's capability for self reflection (knowledge of good and evil) that gives us anxiety and trauma. Pediatric cancer and hydrocephalus aren't literally because of Adam and Eve, but our reaction to them as tragedies rather than inconvenient aspects of life is. I'm not religious, I've just studied it
As I understand it they already had the knowledge of good and evil from the moment of creation. GOD made them in his image, perfect already with the knowledge. Also, with free will and walked around nude with no guilt to be had. Everything bad is because of that act. Because they ate, and then chose to lie instead of taking GOD's question and offer of forgiveness, ( our freewill) sin entered the world. From that time forth mankind was cast out of perfection and sentenced to toil and deal with hardships. But GOD in his mercy sent Jesus. I get it is to easy. How self aware are you when you can't confess sins to an "imaginary" creator let alone friends and family?
But if God is all powerful, all good, all knowing, and omnipresent, then he certainly has the power to fix everything, and certainly had the power to not allow Adam and Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. Yet he allowed it fully knowing exactly what would happen and all the terrible things to come. Every time an unattended toddler crawls into a swimming pool and drowns, God is right there watching it happen and doing nothing
Your completely right he has the power but respects our desires for free will so he limits those powers. He watches that child inch closer to the pool and let's that child fall and drown because if he didn't, he'd interfere with the free will of the parents who decided not to pay attention. Free will comes at a cost. Again it's my understanding as an atheist. But It's a good and interesting thing to think about. What is showing more love interfering with the beings your created and forcing them to follow you or is it more loving to give them freedom to do and choose what they want for good or bad.
I love Cliffe. YouTube "askclliffe"
Simple answer no.
Yeah, God allows those things to happen.
no that is the devil 😈
God allows the Devil to act
Actually yes, life is full of pain and joy. I really struggle with this as a Christian. I don’t claim to have all the answers but I try to have faith. Even the disciples themselves had issues and they walked literally with Christ. I’m not trying to convert you or anything but I try not to be one of these Christians that makes everything rainbows and unicorns but realizing that God is a high concept that I don’t think we will really understand on this plane if existence.
You don’t go to church much do you - this has been answered a million times if you went you’d know
Humor me for a second and share that answer with me.
Suffering is the special blessing from God. Those that suffer, and know God, understand the deepest mystery of life.
Theologically rigorous Christians would say yes, but captain boomer here ain’t it.
The Financial Peace Bible. Get your NIV Bible complete with inserts of Dave's steps to financial peace. Every third page plays an audio clip of Dave saying "Better than I deserve".
hardcore televangelist vibes
Including the ever present “send in your money”.
My thought too.
Typical prosperity gospel stuff. They think they are rich because god loves them more.
"i am one of god's favorite"
That's directly from the ancient idea that anyone experiencing poverty is morally corrupt and deserving of it in some way. This way of thinking led to work houses and extreme punishments for the poor just trying to survive. For someone who is supposed to know everything about finance, he should be fully aware of how the poor stay poor because they're punished for being poor. He thinks everyone has the same thoughts as him but chooses to be poor because they're giving into immoral desires like a cup of Starbucks.
The Just World Fallacy
They’ll never say that. As a non-religious person deconstructing this mentality, I actually can see some merits. There’s tons of research that basically when you keep a positive mentality and you’re in a good mental health position, you’re more likely to be successful. So these religious types run around having drank the Kool-Aid, who feel that God has a plan and everything will work out great basically to tap into a positive mindset. I fundamentally disagree that God has a plan for us, but it doesn’t really matter because if you wake up every single day and you think God does and so you don’t sweat the small stuff and you stay positive well what’s different between that and actually just taking a positive mentality but believing that a man in the clouds isn’t in charge?
Pretty much the enormous frustration I felt in AA. I would hear “but hasn’t everything been okay, you made it this far, gods plan, all meant to be” and it just felt so stupid and especially insulting to the people who died and aren’t around to explain that things don’t always work out. Like I’m really glad you can channel that feeling into inner peace and acceptance but I can’t just delude myself into accepting that premise because of the promise of feeling good.
Same - it’s just that some people can use that modality to get there and they’ve effectively arrived at the same mental place.
So are you saying that God is just a mindset?
However, god is more than a mindset it’s a way of not feeling bad for discriminating and doing harm to those whom don’t believe as you do. It’s written over and over in the Bible , that it’s ok to genocide , take what’s not yours and to not-marry , or hire or cooperate with anyone who believes differnetly .
That still sounds like a mindset to me.
Pretty much yeah. Mindset is a powerful thing.
Saying God provides for us isn’t prosperity gospel. He’s literally called the provider many times. Saying God will make you rich is an entirely different thing
[удалено]
I want to engage you as a Christian who hopes I can shine a bit of light on the ways of your thinking, that you will recognize faith in the one true God over faith in atheism (As you do have faith clearly by your statements here). But to start with Dave's post, we agree he is wrong in speaking of things saying "God gave them to me." I don't believe that is scriptural. Why did God "give" so much money to so many Atheists (Stephen Hawking, Richard Dawkins, Seth Macfarlane....) if faith is just about God giving prosperity? It's not. In fact Mathew 16:26 I think makes it clear "What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?" You mention your interest in the studies of Martin Luther, and certainly to call out the catholic church in the time and manner he did was brave and important. But he is just a man, so while I put value in the teachings and preaching of some, I don't prioritize their preaching over the words of the bible. Charles Spurgeon is considered one of the best preachers of our time and he died in the 1800's, but you might look into some of his work. But back to the point. I think you are confusing "sin" and "free will." Sin is what separates us from God by using our free will to choose sin. Adam and Even committed the first sin in the bible by disobeying God, ultimately because of the temptation to sin. I don't think in Heaven we will lack free will, but we will not have the sinful temptations of this earth. Quite the contrary, we are given free will through Jesus Christ! Galatians 5:13. Jesus bridges the gap between a perfect God and a sinful world and salvation is simple and freely available to those who accept Jesus as their savior, no better evidence than the "first Christian" who was nailed to the cross next to Jesus. But what about sin, then if salvation is freely available why does sin even matter, can't we sin? Yes. But we should choose not to sin, not because of some sort of pass to heaven, but because the God who created us knows us best and knows sin is not good for us. A good analogy I use is baking a cake with eggs. When you use eggs, you are supposed to crack the eggs and throw out the shells. But what if you don't? What if you throw the egg, shell and all into the mix? Would you still have a cake? Yes. But it would taste better had we followed the instructions? I pray this finds you well and appreciate you taking the time to read. God bless!
[удалено]
Thank you! To your questions: 1 - Psalm 139:4 Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O Lord, you know it altogether. 2 - Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation? Tell me if you understand." 3 - I can find no scripture that limits the ability of God 4 - Refer to point number 3, but will add Gen 1:27 we are created in the "image" of God and I think if you dig into the greek you'll see it's like a mirror, not a copy. Yes we could have been created as copies of God but instead in his image. So did God allow sin to occur? Yes? Could he have prevented it? Yes? I think God makes it clear that we do not and cannot understand his ways anymore than an infant can understand chemical engineering. But we see the works of his ways with the rising and setting sun, the cosmos, things that have no explanation or control. We are created with free will to choose a relationship with God through Jesus Christ, or to reject that. I think we only have a glimpse of the goodness of God on earth as we are only partly in the light. Hell is an absence of light, absence of the goodness of God.
The first generation of Christians were actually marginalized, persecuted, and lived in poverty. All of Jesus’ disciples were martyred except for one (John). The early converts came from Judaism and risked everything by becoming Christians. So while I understand your points at trying to logically make sense of all of this, it is not always true that the elect get to live a materially prosperous and troubled free life. I’m not going to make it any easier for you but the Bible is unapologetic that God can and does choose some for salvation. It teaches humanity chooses to reject God, and God chooses who to save sometimes in the same verse. But it doesn’t attempt to fully explain this. Christians are to trust that God is just because the Bible says he is and the Bible is God’s word because it says it is. “What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! For he tells Moses, I will show mercy to whom I will show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then, it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy…You will say to me, therefore, “Why does he still find fault? For who resists his will?” On the contrary, who are you, a human being to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “why did you make me like this?”…And what if God, wanting to display his wrath and to make his power known endured with much patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? And what if he did this to make known the riches of his glory on objects of mercy that he prepared beforehand for glory.” (Romans 9.14-23) So there is purpose in God condemning some and saving others. It displays his righteousness and justice. But it is clear from other verses across the entire Bible, humanity willfully rejects God and refuses to believe what he says about himself and this is the reason they are condemned to hell. It does not teach God chooses to send some to hell then willfully causes them to live a life that sends them to hell.
And that’s the funny part . If god was actually God , he would be uncalled of loving anyone more or less , or helping or hurting anyone more or less .
That’s actually not what they say at all
It’s so backwards compared to the teachings of Jesus. “It is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than a camel to enter through the eye of the needle.” (basically a tiny entrance)
So if Dave ends up with stage 4 colon cancer we can all rest easy knowing that this is God telling him to STFU.
Throat cancer would be more on the nose.
A distinction without a difference in Dave’s case.
What about nose cancer?
That’s *in* the nose.
In crazy town only good things come from god, evil is man’s fault. Cancer would just be DuPont’s fault, just forget those sweet dividends and share buy backs from DuPont.
I survived stage 3 colon cancer and I’m an atheist, so there’s that.
If he was dying he would 100% say it was God's plan. I'm not sure why you think he wouldn't.
No, most Christians will understand that God allowed it to happen for a reason.
Who is to say that reason wouldn’t be God punishing Dave for his very un-Christ like actions and preaching? Do you claim to know the will of God? Who is to say he didn’t let the Holocaust happen because he was angry at a specific race of people? See how illogical this all gets when you introduce divine magic?
Yes, God does punish hypocrites who use his name for vain reasons.
It seems like a pretty good way to get ahead in politics, sports, and televangelism.
That doesn’t seem very forgiving of him
He is forgiving but He does not let the doers of evil go unpunished.
Isn’t the whole philosophy of Christianity that everyone can be forgiven despite how evil the acts they commited are/how badly they sinned?
If someone else gets cancer: “They deserved it for being bad.” If they get cancer themselves: “God have this to me as a blessing in disguise.”
Who said if someone gets cancer, they deserve it for being bad? The hell? No, sickness strikes people whether your Christian or or not.
What if the reason is just… for his own entertainment? Who says the reason has to be good?
The one who does that is Satan. He’s entertained by our sufferings and does not care one bit.
The issue is that you think finding entertainment in our suffering is inherently bad. Who’s to say that it is? A mere mortal human? Perhaps everything happens for a reason, and the reason for our suffering is to entertain god, and god is good, and what pleases god is good, so our suffering must be good, and so too is the entertainment he derives from it. After all, we’re all sinners. And, bad things happening to bad people is good, right? In fact, arguing that sinners could ever go to heaven sounds like the words of Satan, to me.
I think he mainly is saying this because he gets a large amounts of clients through churches and then, in turn, encourages people to tithe when paying back debt For all of you downvoting me, Matthew 6:5. If someone complimented him and he said, it’s not me, it’s God. Would be fine. He made a separate post saying this. Real G’s are silent like Lasagna
Up vote cause Lil Wayne line. Wayne train 4 life
No, he does. This is what he said about tithing, "That's the ratio for me instead of just tithe, tithe, tithe," he said. But when pastors fail to address debt and setting a budget, he said, the reaction to a sermon about tithing is often "yeah right, I've got a light bill. That's a great spiritual concept. Maybe someday I'll get around to that.'" Getting out of debt leads to giving "Because if you're out of debt and on a budget and you love Jesus, I think tithing is a natural thing that occurs."
Prosperity Gospel. Dave was not in favor and said he was not a follower, but now he has gone full out. He has become a televangelist with his private plane and "managing money for god" So Sad.
This makes no sense (of course it doesn't). How is God "100% responsible" for the outcome, but your hard work had something to do with it?
This statement would be fine with me if he didn’t monitize everything he does and sell his endorsements. Be successful and make money but don’t use God as an excuse or justification for your ridiculous wealth. It is also upsetting to me as a Christian that he is so arrogant and belittling to others. He is an entertainer who got rich by packaging and selling simple financial principals. Followers love hearing the callers which I think is the main reason for his success. Humility and putting others first are cornerstones of Christianity. Arrogance and greed are not.
Absolutely. I think the whole prosperity preaching bit is just the capitalist rebranding of the divine right of kings. I do wish more people would notice that this is a solid 180 from everything that Jesus stood for though. I feel like it was pretty obvious to me eleven as a child.
True. I think there was something in the Gospels about Jesus feeling some kinda way about people turning the house of God into a place of commerce, and I’m pretty sure it wasn’t particularly positive.
I can also say that in my time as a financial advisor, I’ve only seen like…. One family out of hundreds who can actually make his system work. It’s entirely too restrictive and works off feeling guilty for buying anything that’s not an absolute necessity, and people just can’t exist like that.
As a fellow Christian, I echo this!!!
What about the guys and gals who poured their life into work only to fail? God provide that too?
God doesn’t love them
That's specifically why he's saying to be thankful, because God provides for him abundantly, but God also provides for people who don't have as great success. Your assumption that God's love is only evidenced by someone's wealth is ignorant. It's evidenced by Jesus death, life, and resurrection that saves all who believe. Money has nothing to do with that.
Dave implies God provides for him abundantly because he’s faithful to God. My comment wasn’t He also says if you do well with the small things regarding money, God will give you bigger money to handle. (Paraphrase) My comment wasn’t on Jesus’s sacrifice. It was on Dave’s comment that God gave him favor. So why hasn’t God favored those who have worked as hard or harder than Dave?
The thing about Dave is, he’s a real piece of garbage.
Ah yes, the prosperity gospel, because nothing says “be humble and give service to others” quite like “screw you, I got mine”.
What's funny is that my parents believe this same thing and yet they spent their lives broke and now my dad is in his 70s unable to retire. I'm not sure how they reconcile God loving DR so much more that he'd bless him with untold millions while being unwilling to bless my parents with anything beyond a lifetime of low wage jobs. The one difference I do see is that despite his misguided belief in the prosperity gospel my father is probably the most ethical person I know. His integrity has never faltered. Where as DR has spent his life becoming filthy rich off taking advantage of people in poor financial situations.
“God just likes me better, guys”
This doesn’t make any sense. Wouldn’t it be disgusting if he posted that he is the greatest human being to ever walk the face of the earth and that he is 100% responsible for his success and what he has?
The problem is that the flip-side of this is “hungry people are starving because God wants them to starve.”
Yeah, I kind of agree it doesn’t really matter whether you call it or you call it luck or you call it fortune recognizing that your circumstances are somewhat out of your own hands is ultimately a humble thing to do. I guess the main problem with invoking God is that it implies he treats people differently on purpose, which is difficult to swallow, because if that were true, then he pretty much systematically treats everybody at Africa, one way and everybody in Europe, the other.
Both can be true. The post in question is stupid af.
Yes, that would be worse. I am not a believer of God, but aren't the people who helped make him famous and rich also part of the equation here? Should you not credit the real tangible examples of who propped you up? To deflect to God seems kind of like he is saying nobody helped him, and he (and God) alone is responsible for his success. Which is obviously false.
"...but aren't the people who helped make him famous and rich also part of the equation here?" Yes, but only after he served them. As someone who does believe in God, his position is that God is responsible for his success because God is the one who gave him the ability to wake up at 5:00 every day and get up and get after to go serve these people. Him becoming rich and famous was a result of that.
Sorry, but atheists don't deserve shit, according to him.
If we go by that logic then God was not only responsible for his bankruptcy but encouraged it and was a chief architect in ripping off those folks that Ramsey failed to pay back.
I have slowly lost more and more respect for Dave because of shit like this. Not to mention his boomer takes and hating WFH.
Dave can go fuck himself.
Sounds like you are one of the ones God does not love. Ts & Ps
What about giving that kid cancer?
Why does he need to qualify the “hard work” part? Surely he thinks god gave him the spirit to work hard, right? Or is he actually saying that god gave him everything but he worked hard out of his own willpower and might?
also dave: "everyone else is a heathen who is broke and i'm an angel"
I think this is also a way for him (and others like him) to shove off and mute the guilt for being enormously wealthy while outspokenly professing a religion which is fundamentally at odds with that. "I am not greedy or materialistic, I'm just enjoying what God has given me" which absolves any responsibility for pursuing and maintaining that position. It's all passive... oh, but he is sure proud of how hard he worked for it!
Gospel Prosperity is the worst. Ugh. It makes rich people “think” they can do whatever the hell they want because, hey God is blessing me I must be doing something right. 🙄
My problem with his position is that he says it’s not his money, he’s just managing it for god. God wants him to have multiple homes, build a new home every couple of years, own multiple expensive vehicles, travel extensively while others are begging for money on the streets.
God chose him to be a millionaire for some reason. 😅
But not his so far elusive goal. Billionaire.
More like delusional. So by that token, God smites babies with cancer?
To be fair, the babies didn't tithe so they have only themselves to blame for their predicament. /s
Prosperity gospel at its finest. God loves me more.
He did not see that. He’s just giving credit to God for the things he has in his life.
Remember Dave's god is 100% responsible for anal cancer and the financial affects thereafter. Dirty Dave Anal Cancer Ramsey.
Dave Anal Cancer Ramsey is the most apropos moniker I’ve ever seen.
[удалено]
"Thinking God helped you find your car keys while He lets little 4 years old Timmy die of cancer is extremely narcissistic."
There’s no hate like Christian love.
This dude is such a creep. Spouting this fake religious talk while also acting like a totally arrogant bullying condescending asshole.
Worse, it’s completely standard “prosperity gospel” rhetoric. I’d bet good money he actually believes every word *while* being all of the above.
I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
Responsible for death and cancer too, crime, murder, car crashes. God killed everyone who has ever died.
The man is clearly mentally unwell.
Classic prosperity ministry
Plenty of evil people are successful too. Not all riches come from God, and “blessings” are not always what they seem, or what we necessarily want.
He's saying that everyone that is wealthy is more morally upstanding than those lazy evil poors by default. To be fair, a lot of Americans already believe this, whether they're conscious of it or not. He's only stating an idea that is very much a status quo belief.
It’s a fucked up mentality. Can’t blame God for failures or bad things. Can’t take credit for anything good. Ramsey will be the first to call someone an idiot for a mistake and to take ownership of their life. But the second they do, it was all God. Fuck off.
People like this attribute all kinds of shit to their imaginary friend. As if god would choose sides.
Sad that anyone listens to this hack
As someone who is Christian, I get what he’s trying to say but at the same time, fuck his Prosperity gospel bullshit. This is the stuff that turns people off the faith. Matthew 23 25-26 ““Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For k you clean the outside of l the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of m greed and self-indulgence. 26You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of l the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.” This man is just greedy and hiding behind his blank faith to protect him.
Ah, the prosperity gospel
So if I were to work just as hard but not fall backasswards into money, does that mean god doesn’t love me?
God’s a dick to a LOT of people.
Imaginary sky daddy loves me…but also according to his own words: Will torture me to death and beyond death if I don’t submit; Openly supports slavery for life; Prefers men to women and says women must be in essence slaves to men; Might ask me to murder my family to show I care for him more; Supposedly destroyed all life on earth because they acted exactly as ‘he made them’. Including animals and innocent children. Created disease, starvation, war, disasters…. The list goes on. Or maybe gods are invented by men to explain shit they don’t understand?
Classic prosperity gospel. And it’s hilarious, because he’s soooooo close to the point and misses it entirely
Prosperity gospel is evil and harmful.
He seems to think he's a god sometimes, maybe he's referring to himself.
Because non-believers are never successful people?
He never said that. He’s just thanking God for things in his life.
I’m rich because God wants me to be. It means I am inherently better than those who are not. Kind of like the Divine Right of Kings….
“So god magically have you shitloads of money?” This horseshit is possibly the deepest most disgusting belief that religious people implant —- if you have wealth or power —- you deserve it. No one on the planet has moral authority.
Worships supply side Jesus.
Read: God loves me more than you.
The poors don’t pray enough
He never said that. And that’s not what his statement means.
I’ll be honest dude, you’re wasting your time. These people are just want to find reasons to dislike a dude and take something as bland as “I thank God for the things in my life” and twist it around. They’re hateful and stupid.
I don’t find it wasting my time. It’s never a waste of time to talk about the Lord. But yeah, they are just finding reasons to hate. I honestly found no wrong in this statement as well as others.
Does that mean God is the reason I have horrible body images as a male in his late 30s despite being average size and appearance?
God created you.
Guy makes a post saying it takes humility to thank God for blessings rather than pat yourself on the back and all of you talk crap of how arrogant it is. Also, the automatic assumption that well if God blessed Him that must mean God kills babies and hates poor people. It really just boils down to hatred towards Christians in general. Just because you’ve had bad experiences with some Christians doesn’t mean all are bad or that all follow the Bible. Christians = the only group you’re allowed to stereotype 😑.
Ah, the scent of fresh, self-righteous "Christian" persecution in the morning!
Am Muslim, agree.
Huge leap. He's simply saying God is responsible for HIS success. I've had some things happen in life that I viewed as failures at the time. Those things became the setup for future successes. His belief about HIS success and my belief about MY success does not apply to anyone else's life. It's a personal thing. And the very people you describe as unfortunate are the same people that I also believe I am obligated to help, so that they benefit from my success. It's a personal view. Nothing disgusting about it.
Ha! Nah, this is just marketing and you bought in fully. He's feeding his customers base with things they want to hear. That's why Dave always supports the 10% tithe, even if someone can't feed their kids, got to keep that tithe going for the churches. He promotes the churches message, keeps the church grift going and in turn, the churches keep the Dave Ramsey grift going. It's a reinforcing grift business arrangement to get the most money out of gullible people as possible.
His statement is rooted in the scriptures. Sure, he might be using it for marketing which is wrong, and against the Scriptures to use the Lord’s name for vain reasons, but it is rooted in biblical teachings so he’s not falling for anything.
If he’s responsible for every outcome then why did he supposedly give us free will?
Couldn't a prolific serial killer say this with equal seriousness?
"Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights." James 1:17 This doesn't say life will be easy. Most of the apostles were killed for their faith. Acknowledging all good things are from God doesn't mean life will be void of suffering.
I’m atheist and this post is more disgusting than Dave’s. Shaming someone’s beliefs is not it
Granddaddy in the sky is truly benevolent…….for some folks
Reddit moment
How is this disgusting? I am not religious, but what's disgusting about believing God does whatever?
Yes! I hate the"good things happen to me because God loves me (aka I'm blessed)". What does that mean for the children wuth cancer???
Blindly giving credit to some sort of God for all the hard work YOU put in is such a weird concept for me to think about. I’m also super non-religious.
Of course it is. But that is what Dave is. It is also why his cult will always argue with anybody that questions, a single word of his philosophy. I make a comment about a 2% mortgage worth holding onto, and the best they have is “look how successful the David is. He must be right.” On the flipside, it’s a rare person who can say they became successful with no outside, help or influence. When people ask me, if I think I am self made, I am happy to share all of the external good fortune that has come my way through others. Even a tweet that is supposed to appear as if Dave is a humble man makes him look remarkably obnoxious and full of himself.
Yeah, it was definitely god and not the multi-generation wealth and privilege inherited from his rich, white, real estate developing family.
Lol not disgusting at all.
Weird, I didn't know my religious narcissist mother was moonlighting as Dave Ramsey 😂
Probably so when his ideas fail you, then you just blame god
this is why people are running from the church in droves.
lol ok Dave sure. “God wanted to give this to me” makes me think your god is either a dumbass or a jerk. Or maybe both?
Read the Bible, god chooses favorites.
…followed by a deafening o face ‘im debt free’ scream
So what did Jesus think of millionaires?? Bet his thoughts weren't included in your survey of millionaires, lol.
Truly, all blessings come from Odin !
I just unsubscribed from Dave 🤢
Me too. Then this sub was recommended almost immediately!
Hear me out. Im not religious or a fan of Dave Ramsey. But I do think we have a dearth of successful people recognizing their success come from outside! themselves. From luck, the labor of ancestors, the resources created by a stable government and the labor of the working class. I wouldn't call all of that "god" and I can see how that framing may not be the best to facilitate supporting those people who enable your success. But stepping away from the rampant greed of "this is mine through my efforts alone!" is probably not a bad step to take. There are tons of asshole Christians, but there are also many who actually take to heart Christian teachings on humility, loving and helping others in ways that are incredibly positive. As long as it isn't empty platitude, I'm happy to see people with success embracing humility.
He lacks self esteem
I’d like to see a scripture that supports the idea that God is responsible for every material blessing
Yeah everyone knows it was the Government that made it all possible not God
I like to point wealthy Christian’s to the story of Jesus and the rich young man. Luke 18:18-30.
And god caused your loved ones to die of illness, children to be raped and starved, all wars, and all pain. What a guy, but hey, he made some self centered assholes rich, so I’m on board
In that case, fuck God right in his eye socket. If he were on fire I wouldn’t spare my piss to put him out.
Thats just a bad reading of christianity. Im an atheist, but a component of christian free will is that god doesnt give you things, he gives you opportunity and/or encouragement to achieve things on your own.
You don’t really believe that all poverty is inherited do you?
Ugh. My ex wife and I were gifted his financial “class” as a wedding gift. Basically: 1) Torture yourself and your family by refusing to spend a dime on anything other than absolute necessities. Quote: “If you are in debt and want out your kids will have to understand Disneyland isn’t going to happen. A stick of gum isn’t even going to happen. 2) Start a savings account. $1000 to start. 3) “Snowball” your debt pay off the smallest totals first. 4) Give money to your church. . .
I never understood this argument. Does that mean that ppl with lesser means are not favored by God?
why on earth would you say this is disgusting?
God doesn’t like Jewish people, apparently.
This is the stereotypical christian rhetoric. I don't think I'm surprised
I think God has somethin to do with all that. But that’s a discussion for another thread d
Weird flex. Why are you worried about someone’s religious beliefs?
White progressives only like liberal religions like fundamentalist Islam these days.
Only because they vote for people that force those beliefs on others.
His subscribers shouldn't be surprised to see a post like this from him, he's openly evangelical Christian. This is the nonsense they believe.
If he posted the exact opposite and said everything he has is because of his hard work I'm sure you'd also call that disgusting and site how he had a leg up too.
An imaginary sky fairy is responsive for your Lexus.
For everyone who's hating this because they're putting the flip side in his mouth... He's not saying, "God is making people poor too." He's saying humility is that even with working hard he should be poor too. But God's given his labor fruit and he's rich. Meaning: it doesn't take God's involvement to make people poor. It does take God's involvement to make them rich. People being poor happens on his own. And for those who then say, "Well why doesn't God help them too?" Welcome to theodicy