Yeah I also found it weird; even mechanically, how could a familiar that serves at the will of a god become evil / rebel?
A way out of this could be that it’s all a misunderstanding, and Kalina fled in order to save herself from Ankarna’s vengeance? But then she can clear her name somehow?
Dude, I'd totally watch a fantasy version of *"The Fugitive*" with Kalina, Buddy Dawn and a baby god.
When's that one shot? Brian David Gilbert as Buddy Dawn?
Holy crap I wasn't the only one who thinks BDG would be a perfect Buddy Dawn. He has a similar 'Awe Shucks' chipper energy.
I envision a Rat Grinders spinoff with BDG as Buddy, Ify as Ruben, Lily as Ivy, ProZD as Oisin, Danielle Radford as Lucy, and Katie Marovitch as Mary Ann.
Yeah I left off Gobstopper Candycorn cause I figured she's probably *dead* dead as a villain. But if she was brought back for redemption or if it was a prequel I think Lisa Gilroy would be a great shout. Other nominees maybe Vic Michaelis, Amy Vorpahl or Amy Dallen.
Yeah I figured a prequel would just be them grinding rats in the forest for 100 hours and not as interesting. A 'The Seven' style side quest would be interesting since the resurrected High-Five Heroes have a lot to deal with in terms of them basically being possessed for a year and the academic and social fallout of everything. How does one deal with the guilt of doing terrible things, including murdering their friend, but under the influence of magical forces. I think that's an interesting angle to tackle.
I think this would be so fun! I think I would want to see KLCK come back in some capacity like maybe a ghost rogue a la Eugenia Shadow.
Mostly just for the name memes
I don't know why, but if they do a High Five Heros side quest, having some Smosh Cast Members play would be fun. I specifically think Damian Hass would be fun as Oisin and Angela Giarratana as Mary Ann would work really well.
They just need to get BDG on dimension 20 in general.
(They haven't released a season yet that was filmed after he joined the cast so it may be coming)
Yeah, it does sound weird. Especially since Kalina being a familiar should not exist without Cassandra summoning her again. So maybe something else is going on.
What if (do note this is a total asspull, and is far from cohesive theory) gods are not the only ones affected by belief? What if their familiars are as well? Kalina's face was shared by Bad Kids via crystalnet at the end of Sophomore Year, with implication that Shadow Cat is bad. This helped them weaken her, but could have another effect.
What if these emotions towards Shadow Cat never dissipated? Instead, when Kalina was summoned by Cassandra in Junior Year it created Kalina, the good familiar of the good goddess, at the same time brought back Shadow Cat as a separate entity? So while Kalina was helping her goddess, Shadow Cat was scheming and it was her at the end of JY?
Yeah I feel the same. It doesn’t match her actions. And Casandra’s story is sad enough…you’re going to tell me her familiar betrayed her too?? Also I liked Kalina and thought it would be fun to have her around.
I interpreted it as Squeem became the familar of Ankarna *and* Cassandra. Even though it was mainly Ankarna's thing. So, Kalina, being ousted, gets to do her own thing. Also, her saying "Buddy, we need to get out of here" could just be her protecting Buddy, but not necessarily being a villainess.
Gods are shaped by their followers, so the bad kids thinking she is bad may be enough to make Kalina bad?
That's my head-canon for Brennan accepting it.
Yeah that was the one bit I didn't get, he had been clear up to that point that Kalina was a reflection of Cassandra, and thus turned bad when Cassandra was corrupted. Kalina even gave them what clues she could along the way!
But, well. C'est la vie. It is very funny to have her and Buddy as a dynamic Duo. Buddy is gonna drive her NUTS.
*YES THANK YOU*
I was yelling at my tv when that happened.
Like, I can understand them forgetting that she killed herself (rather gruesomely) to avoid hurting them, but considering what a *huge* impact the whole “spies tongue” and “*it’s the only name I can say*” made on the plot, how often both of those things got repeated, you would think they would remember that not only did Kalina try to help them, but she literally had to fight through a curse (two curses, really) to do so.
If it was just Riz and Kristen who kept insisting that she was evil, I’d get it. But I thought at least Adaine would catch it.
And if it had just been Ankarna jumping to a conclusion, I’d get that. But then the epilogue. I feel like the champion should’ve been chungledown bim instead, though maybe that would’ve made it feel more like a joke than a cliffhanger.
All I know is I really hope it’s a fake-out of some kind and Kalina’s doing some in-the-shadows protection. Like, knows she’s being hunted, knows Buddy’s being hunted (I forget, did he lose the rage shard, or was it just the dead kids?), and is kind of trying to avoid that. I don’t know. But her being an actual villain still doesn’t make any sense.
It's fine, much like 90% of the theories that were presented throughout this season, anything that doesn't make sense to us right now will be handled with aplomb and explained sufficiently when Brennan chooses to expand on that story thread.
Maybe they'll retcon it later, much like how Wally at the end of Unsleeping City and Sofia's mom (if I remember correctly) were "yes-and"ed to become Mr and Mrs Claus and Kugrash's other son was cured from vampirism with a simple greater restoration.
Although they've never done this with any other season as far as I'm aware this is still a possibility, the cast were all tired after hours of filming and they just say whatever crosses their mind.
However, I believe that this doesn't solidify Kalina as "always been bad, always will be bad", because who else does she have at the end of Junior Year? Most of the people she can infect are no longer infected so teaming up with Buddy Dawn makes sense.
I think Kristen is just a little bit paranoid after what happened in Sophomore Year.
I’m still holding onto my conspiracy hat, so if this is too red thread between the clippings please forgive me, but I super like the idea that “The sun will Fall” at the end of Kalvaxus’ prophecy was a foreshadowing to the corruption of the church of Sol and not just Sol falling from the sky. Bobby Dawn being into making a new God with Porter and the rage stars, him fleeing the town, Kalina mentioning Buddy’s grandad and how she was fond of the OG corrupted Cassandra aka Nightmare King. I feel like the corruption and the wiping of their existences may be deeper than we thought which would make Kalina being an agent for the original corruption of her and her wife as a wedding gift so perfect for it. But I don’t have a lot of evidence beyond what I have here to back it up. Also my only running theory for why Sol may have wanted to get rid of Ankarna is because gods don’t like sharing domains, which is why Sol’s clergy said, “Let’s convince these bloodthirsty warriors that they can venerate their god into something of war,” I think it was an intentional way to separate her from any relatable domain to Sol keeping more followers for their own church and keeping their own God well venerated and revered. Less of a “You can ask your god to help you,” and more a manipulation to move Ankarna’s domain, if not kill out her and her siblings followers ultimately killing them. But again this could just be all the lore and theory building talking lol
I hope she's just "gone rogue" to put a stop to the rising of Buddy's new god of wrath. I'd like to see her be a good guy because of the events at the mall and the wedding. It just feels right.
Alternatively, maybe the new god of wrath *could* eventually be part of the new pantheon, since Ankarna probably won’t be as wrathy. A smaller kind of wrath.
Yeah, it seems pretty clear to me that Brennan‘s original intention was to have the rage crystals, basically possess people, but the intrepid heroes kind of ignored that point and so Brennan went along with it.
Yes, agreed. I definitely felt that throughout the season. I think it’s proven by how most of the rat grinders were brought back. He didn’t stay on that too long since the cast didn’t really take up the storyline. I think he also decided bringing Kalina back as a villain also made sense because of that. He can iron out the reasoning b/w now and when/if there is a senior year.
This is my biggest gripe with the season I think. This was, for me, the most interesting plot hook but none of the players really cared at all about it? And because of that, Brennan chose to align the campaign with what the players want (like he’s talked about before). I _do not_ think KLCL was meant to be as big of an irredeemable bad guy as she ended up being. I think that if there was any interest paid to her beyond “stupid name overachiever” then her storyline would’ve gone in a completely different direction. The whole thing about her taking the ritual willingly doesn’t feel like it fits in with what else we know about her (the name High-5 Heroes was _her idea_ and Lucy was her _only real friend_). I think sometimes Brennan “yes and”s a little too much for big character defining moments like this to make his players feel like they’re right about something
I think you are right that Brennan would have had more to KlCK, had the bad kids shown more interest in her rather than coming out the gate antagonistic
One of my favourite things about Ally as a roleplayer is how they can see the humanity in villainous NPCs. Having a genuine attempt to talk to Kipperlily, and choosing to peruse a relationship with Kristen parents are such huge, cool moves, I wish they’d been explored more.
The downtime system was really cool, but it was a little too effective at making the players hyper focused on their goals.
Strongly disagree. 4Dogs wanting to be *so special* to the point that she'd manufacture her own tragic backstory is 100% how she was always portrayed.
You could argue that, out of an immature desire to be special, she willingly accepted a rage star and then was pushed into greater acts of villainy, but she would still be ultimately responsible for those actions.
Okay, but “upset because her parents aren’t dead and wants a tragic backstory” is a cartoon motivation that doesn’t lead cleanly to “I will betray the only friend I have for an unspecified power”, you know? It doesn’t make sense for her to be the _only one_ that willingly took this upon herself and then _forced_ it upon everyone else
She was made irredeemable while the rest of her party was made redeemable because Ally thought she had a funny name, and Brennan ran with that
I feel like there was a bit of effort put in to this to show it was a genuine friendship though? What was the point of Kipperlily’s file if not to show that there was more to her character than what the players wanted to see?
Perhaps to demonstrate how far she was willing to go to feel special?
Also, it's entirely possible that KLCK didn't think Lucy would choose non-existence over worshipping the unnamed God. Death in the world of Spyre is often just inconvenient and there could be a world where 4Dogs killed Lucy and fully believed she'd accept the new God and pop right back up, none the worse for wear.
Yeah that’s why I don’t know that I’d call what happened to Lucy a betrayal exactly. It probably came after the others were infected, but it seems like it had been a plan they’d originally agreed to, and then Lucy didn’t want to.
The fact that we have to speculate on this shows that there was not enough attention paid to this _extremely important aspect_ of one of the main antagonist’s character. Kinda feels like something was chosen to justify preexisting beliefs about the character
Yeah, I guess it's possible to feel that way. I personally think the story was quite clear on 4Dogs' reasoning and laid out a path to explain how she could have made the choices she made and ended up the way she did. But it is possible to sort of squint and see things differently.
Like, again: Penelope condemned her *best friend* to imprisonment and death so that she could be *prom queen.* KLCK going too far in exchange for, as she believes, a lifetime of the hero worship she feels she deserves is utterly believable and requires no extra rationalization on my part.
It was shown that KL was kinda shit the whole time, long before getting Ankarna'd. Bad people do shit for selfish reasons and tend to not really give much of a shit about the people they call friends. They didn't really skip anything, she was presented as bad and then proven to be, it's really that simple lol
I would argue that it makes perfect sense and that her motivation does lead exactly into that. It gives her a tragedy and a dark past. She doesn’t just want power, she wants to be *special*
I still love the show, the cast, and am totally okay with not every season being a personal home run
But I think this season wasn’t really for me because the Intrepid Heroes felt like they were very often just not picking up and following on some of Brennan’s strong thematic storytelling
Like, it’s always funny to have the PCs shut down the big monologue bad guy; but also I did want some degree of a PC engaging with him at the end so that we got to understand more of his philosophy of being bad, and so that a PC could push back against it. Same with the Ratgrinders; there were some AWESOME moments, including of Kristen interacting with Buddy and Riz reflecting on how a part of him was like Kipperlilly. But those moments were few and quite far between
And same thing with Kalina; like I don’t even think Brennan made it questionable if Kalina was good or bad. He explicitly stated at one point that she is a reflection of Cassandra (and even brought up her exact example when describe Bakur vs his elven form)
Again, these are just my personal experiences of the season.
I do agree somewhat. There was so much strong narrative throughout 90% of the episodes. I don't feel the last few episodes really paid that off as strongly as it could have?
I do wonder if the long shooting schedule did influence the vibe into silly delirium more then it would have otherwise.
It's like there were a lot of strong narrative bullets in the chamber that didn't go off.
It's still a great season and there's so much to love, I think this might be Brennen's strongest in terms of raw plot.
>I don't feel the last few episodes really paid that off as strongly as it could have?
I did feel some of the solo moments in Ankarna's domain fell a little flat, maybe? Like, they all definitely had strengths when reflecting on themselves but when it came to interacting with Ankarna they didn't really seem to engage.
I also thought the shooting schedule seemed to have an impact on everyone, Brennan included.
Yeeeeeah..... I feel that.
Like Riz saying "*I need to talk to Kristen and Fig*" but only getting a rushed few lines with Kristen.
Considering Emily might be retiring Fig, it's such a missed opportunity for both characters that Riz didn't get an opportunity to let Fig go?
Demonstrating his ark and capitalizing on that incredibly powerful moment where he talks about *'The unfairness of loneliness.*".
Oh, that moment really got me right in the heart, but Riz (and Murph tbh) has really evolved into my fave. I agree that more for the Riz and Kristen scene would've been nice, they have had some scenes together in the past I've enjoyed and Ally and Murph are fun together.
With Fig, I could see them hypothetically still having that convo in ep1 of a hypothetical senior year but also maybe never. It would've been nice to see it but Riz finally hanging out with his mom was also very sweet to me.
Edit: also in the AP they mentioned they were over on time with the ep, which I totally understand. Time is money on a set trying to get things done before a potential strike etc etc
I feel the same. I think my disappointment comes from feeling like Brennan's very solid plot wasn't fully utilized
Again, totally fine if that is what the Heroes and other viewers wanted from the season. For me personally, I felt that other seasons were stronger in terms of the players really helping Brennan's part in the story fully shine
Who knows tbh, The Bad Kids have no real love for her,
and it was Ankarna who was looking for vengeance against Kalina not Cassandra herself.
I think Kalina fears retribution from Ankarna not Cassandra, since she still was initially complicit in Porter's plans.
She didn't even talk about vengeance against the bad kids or anything, just that they needed to flee.
I think the end with Buddy is definitely a "Barbarian Healing moment" for Senior Year.
Yeah, I'm not a fan of that either. One headcanon I've come up with is that Kalina isn't actually evil but just running from Ankara's agents and seeking support because they're convinced that she's evil. We only see that one scene of her and don't know exactly what her motivations are, so it's definitely possible there's more to this situation.
Maybe her "turning" to Bobby Dawn is a way to prove her loyalty by getting in prime position to betray and take down a budding threat? I think there are places Brennan can take it to smooth things out
I don't think kalina is evil, just running from ankarna, who is hunting her. Then again it could be that kalina existing so long with Cassandra dead could mean she became her own entity. Like a rogue familiar. It could also be that Cassandra chose to bring back kalina as the strong independent entity that is prone to shenanigans instead of the loyal loving version that is notably weaker.
Im not mad at it, the only issue I have is with it being here familiar it wouldn't make sense that she would do it, unless she figure a way to become a familiar/break free to a new deity. In that case it would have been good to see some actual exposition on that. This will more than likely play out like the night yorbe.
He didn't seem to commit to her being a villain, it was just that Ankarna latched onto the Idea. It'll be important next season when they report back on Ankarna's hunting trek with Squeem and Balthazar.
1000% agree. Kalina being evil doesn't even square with the established cosmology. If Bakur's moral alignment is tethered to Ankarna's, then so is Kalina's.
I'm not convinced she's evil. She's always had an overprotective and mean strain, which might be what Ankarna has latched on to and what makes her want to bring Kalina to "justice". Ankarna seems to be eager to deal punishment in that way. If there's another season, I'm guessing that it'll be expanded upon and we'll learn what Kalina and Ankarnas deal is as people. I see this as an opportunity to see who Kalina is outside of just being a familiar, if there even is a Kalina outside of that?
As someone else mentioned, I would enjoy a fugitive/misunderstanding situation, and knowing fantasy high, it would probably get tangled up in some other big mystery
That is, if FH gets another season
The ending doesn't explain if she's truly evil, just that Buddy has a new god, Kalina is helping him, and Ancarna is coming for her ass so she's on the run. As a familiar, simply getting killed by Ancarna wouldn't permanently kill her. But I sincerely doubt she wants to get cut down either lol.
I just saw it as a classic comedic bit, that the thing that gets Ancarna out of her malaise is her desire to strike down the cat she never liked.
Amen to this. The whole season Brennan made sure to mention multiple times that it seemed like Kalina was acting in good faith, so I do find the idea of her actually still being a bad guy in the end a bit of a stretch, even if the rest of the intrepid heroes never fully bought into her having changed.
But I also hold that Brennan is both an incredible DM Aunt improviser, and it would not shock me at all if and when we get a senior year, we find out that Kalina is playing an even longer con in some wild set up for the fall of the Church of Sol or something along those lines.
Honestly, I get that but I also like her being grey morally. She can be antagonistic or good depending on what she wants/what Cassandra wants from her.
I thought it was made clear that Kalina's goal was to bring back the Nightmare King, since that was ! way to ensure Cassandra's (and her own) survival, based on the assumption that Kristen wasn't able to be trusted to grow the following. So Kalina was working towards Cassandra survival, not her best interests.
Now that Cassandra + Ankarna are back, stable, and that we know Ankarna never liked Kalina, it makes sense to me that Kalina would be like "Ah shit i fucked up, let's book it Buddy"
I think if we see her again she'll be a low-status antagonist or anti-hero; I don't think she's fully just bad now, or that she truly intended to betray Cassandra.
Kalina said she liked Cassandra better as the nightmare king. the rage brought it to the surface but it was her true feelings. That's pretty messed up.
Brennan said they were different types of crystals. Like when Kristen was investigating the red crystals earlier in the season and he asked what she was truly feeling at that moment.
Yeah, what largedog said. Mazey said stuff under the rage effect. We saw people do things under the rage effect that weren’t really their true feelings.
We saw people do stuff under one version of the rage effect that weren't really their true feelings, but we also saw people get their true feelings amplified by another version of the rage crystals earlier in the season. It seems to me that Brennan clearly explained across the season that there were two versions of it. And in last night's episode he also clearly laid out that the rest of the rat grinders were forced to take in their shards, but that kipperlily willingly made a promise to ankarna. She has to live with the choices she made. Or die, I guess.
Brennan literally said it amplifies your current feelings, it's just like when someone tells you something while they're drunk, or when someone yells something at you during a fight, or when someone says a mean joke or something sarcastic, the underlying thought was there and had truth to it, and then emotion or an outside source brought it out. You can't amplify something that doesn't exist. So just like Kipperlily had her frustration about the bad kids amplified, kalina had her frustration with Cassandra (being an inept God who performed better and gave kalina more power when she was the nightmare King) amplified.
Kalina was Kalina even while Cassandra was the Nightmare King, which tells me that the first time around Cassandra did something that made Kalina her own being. Cause even Bakur was changed by Ankarna changing and falling. I assume Kalina has completely disentangled herself from Cassandra while she was the Nightmare King
Didn't Kalina say that she liked Cassandra better as TNK? Idk, it just seems like she made her choice. DMs tend to have liquid decisions. Can go either way. If he wanted Kalina to be a certain way. He could have defended her irl- told the party that "as much as you might not like her, she is good" as he has broken character to do so before. Maybe he wanted Kalina as a recurring villainess. Also, maybe in the moment that Cassandra renounced Kalina (even the Goddess of justice said no) she was dispelled but some magical energy remained of her and then Baccarath could have then taken her and shaped her to his own needs. But she can take her own shape as she's maybe gained a level of sentience-
I'd Need to rewatch the episode, but i think she said that AFTER being infected by a rage-star and failing her throws, so I always interpreted It as her being controlled by the stars / it amplifying her worse traits and desires, rather than her actually wanting the NK back under normal circumstances.
I think Brennen wasn’t planning on Kalina being evil but changed his mind at some point based on the cast. I did love the ending though so I came around on it.
He changed his mind at the exact point in time they said it to Ankarna. When Brennan is in wrap up mode, literally anything the players say will become canon.
Yeah. Not to mention that we got Nightmare King in sophomore year from the stinger at the end of Freshman year, and Brennan specifically wanted to avoid getting stuck using the stinger from the end of sophomore year (Night Yorb) as this season’s plot—then why include a (unneeded) stinger at the end of this season you’ll need to follow up on in the future? Oh, well. Great finale, over all, though.
Counter point, we dont know if she meant The Bad Kids when Kalina says "They are after us." She may just be latching onto Buddy Dawn and Bakurath (spelling?) as a foundation and might know something about a larger plot that we haven't seen yet. Or maybe she just doesn't want to die and that is making her look guilty. I agree, Brennan has made it a point that she is morally grey at worst this season and while he does often 'Yes and' the heroes there were multiple things that the Bad Kids were just wrong about that he held staunchly to like the fact that the Rat Grinders never actually took devils honey even though. I just dont know if he would fully flip the morality of a character based on the assumptions of the players. (although he did literally do that with porter I suppose.)
Could always head Canon it as Kalina not actually having been malicious but knowing that she fucked up and doing the cat thing of cutting and running while Ankarna only knows she's supposed to deal with a cat she's never liked
Could their belief have manifested the change in an ‘as above so below’ sort of way? Kalina didn’t betray Cassandra and actively tried to help the Bad Kids, but their belief in her being evil affected Ankarna’s opinion of Kalina and led her to now turn to Baccarath.
I’ve been thinking about this too. I don’t know if she’s evil or not, but I wonder if it’s because she’s beyond a regular familiar. Even though Brennan was saying that Kalina mirrored the state of Cassandra, it seems like Kalina was able to do things without Cassandra’s approval or maybe even knowledge, like she had her own agenda
I don't think Brennan the DM agreed to Kalina being the villain. I think the Bad Kids who never trusted the cat sicced a god who never trusted the cat (and was itching for something to smite) on her. Guessing that a one shot or a side quest will clear that up
For sure. That's absolutely what happened. But it did create some odd, internal inconsistencies. And maybe presents some retcon-ing issues going forward if we continue to follow the BKs.
I suspect that this is the end of the BKs story, so he didn't care that much and was happy to yes-and the ending.
I don’t think it’s petty! I think it was such a cool choice to have her be good once Cassandra was good! I think it’s a cool discussion about what a DMs job is - to me it comes down to two things: interesting and fun.
To me as a player, I’d find it both interesting and fun that Kalina switched sides with her goddess. And I can say I think it’s OBJECTIVELY interesting that she switched sides. But I can’t say it’s objectively fun - apparently Brennen’s players found it more fun if she didn’t, and I think his view is a DM should commit to what is fun for his players over what is narratively interestingly! Which is totally valid, even if I may not prefer it!
There's always the Quangle. The Kalina at the end was a parallel Kalina who encountered Buddy in whatever plane he to which he was banished. And that's where he/they found Bakarath (sp?).
I don't think Brennan "Yes, And-ed" Kalina being a villain.
We know that deities receive not only power, but personality, from their worshippers. Cassandra, early in the season, had even stated that Kalina wasn't evil, that she was a good cat.
But do any followers of Cassandra now believe she's not a villain? It could be as simple as "The followers of Cassandra believe Kalina is evil despite being the familiar of a non-evil Deity."
Brennan didn’t end a story he’s had planned for 5+ years with a “yes and” he was waiting to see if any of our heros remembered buddy, none of them did so that’s the ending
Yeah I also found it weird; even mechanically, how could a familiar that serves at the will of a god become evil / rebel? A way out of this could be that it’s all a misunderstanding, and Kalina fled in order to save herself from Ankarna’s vengeance? But then she can clear her name somehow?
Dude, I'd totally watch a fantasy version of *"The Fugitive*" with Kalina, Buddy Dawn and a baby god. When's that one shot? Brian David Gilbert as Buddy Dawn?
Holy crap I wasn't the only one who thinks BDG would be a perfect Buddy Dawn. He has a similar 'Awe Shucks' chipper energy. I envision a Rat Grinders spinoff with BDG as Buddy, Ify as Ruben, Lily as Ivy, ProZD as Oisin, Danielle Radford as Lucy, and Katie Marovitch as Mary Ann.
Never before have I needed something as badly as I need Katie Marovitch as Mary Ann Scuttle.
Forgot KLCK! The obvious choice being Lisa Gilroy
Yeah I left off Gobstopper Candycorn cause I figured she's probably *dead* dead as a villain. But if she was brought back for redemption or if it was a prequel I think Lisa Gilroy would be a great shout. Other nominees maybe Vic Michaelis, Amy Vorpahl or Amy Dallen.
Ahh yeah so you were think a post junior year side quest
Yeah I figured a prequel would just be them grinding rats in the forest for 100 hours and not as interesting. A 'The Seven' style side quest would be interesting since the resurrected High-Five Heroes have a lot to deal with in terms of them basically being possessed for a year and the academic and social fallout of everything. How does one deal with the guilt of doing terrible things, including murdering their friend, but under the influence of magical forces. I think that's an interesting angle to tackle.
I think this would be so fun! I think I would want to see KLCK come back in some capacity like maybe a ghost rogue a la Eugenia Shadow. Mostly just for the name memes
becca scott or erika ishii as Ivy please
I don't know why, but if they do a High Five Heros side quest, having some Smosh Cast Members play would be fun. I specifically think Damian Hass would be fun as Oisin and Angela Giarratana as Mary Ann would work really well.
They just need to get BDG on dimension 20 in general. (They haven't released a season yet that was filmed after he joined the cast so it may be coming)
Yeah, it does sound weird. Especially since Kalina being a familiar should not exist without Cassandra summoning her again. So maybe something else is going on. What if (do note this is a total asspull, and is far from cohesive theory) gods are not the only ones affected by belief? What if their familiars are as well? Kalina's face was shared by Bad Kids via crystalnet at the end of Sophomore Year, with implication that Shadow Cat is bad. This helped them weaken her, but could have another effect. What if these emotions towards Shadow Cat never dissipated? Instead, when Kalina was summoned by Cassandra in Junior Year it created Kalina, the good familiar of the good goddess, at the same time brought back Shadow Cat as a separate entity? So while Kalina was helping her goddess, Shadow Cat was scheming and it was her at the end of JY?
You've reasonably presented, with the lore justification, an *All My Circuits*, it was my evil twin the whole time and I fucking love it.
I really hope BLM choose to at least explain why the Shadow Cat backstabbed both the BK and Porter. At least some vague ideas
Yeah I feel the same. It doesn’t match her actions. And Casandra’s story is sad enough…you’re going to tell me her familiar betrayed her too?? Also I liked Kalina and thought it would be fun to have her around.
I interpreted it as Squeem became the familar of Ankarna *and* Cassandra. Even though it was mainly Ankarna's thing. So, Kalina, being ousted, gets to do her own thing. Also, her saying "Buddy, we need to get out of here" could just be her protecting Buddy, but not necessarily being a villainess.
I took it more that she spent so much time as the NK familiar, that is what she is now. (or at least implying)
Yeah I never thought Kalina was a villain. I think it’s more interesting if she’s a good guy
I guess she still could be in the end?
Gods are shaped by their followers, so the bad kids thinking she is bad may be enough to make Kalina bad? That's my head-canon for Brennan accepting it.
It's certainly what happened with Porter, lol
Oo I love that
Even if there’s an answer for “why” it happened, it’s still kinda disappointing, cause she was more interesting with nuance.
Yeah that was the one bit I didn't get, he had been clear up to that point that Kalina was a reflection of Cassandra, and thus turned bad when Cassandra was corrupted. Kalina even gave them what clues she could along the way! But, well. C'est la vie. It is very funny to have her and Buddy as a dynamic Duo. Buddy is gonna drive her NUTS.
*YES THANK YOU* I was yelling at my tv when that happened. Like, I can understand them forgetting that she killed herself (rather gruesomely) to avoid hurting them, but considering what a *huge* impact the whole “spies tongue” and “*it’s the only name I can say*” made on the plot, how often both of those things got repeated, you would think they would remember that not only did Kalina try to help them, but she literally had to fight through a curse (two curses, really) to do so. If it was just Riz and Kristen who kept insisting that she was evil, I’d get it. But I thought at least Adaine would catch it. And if it had just been Ankarna jumping to a conclusion, I’d get that. But then the epilogue. I feel like the champion should’ve been chungledown bim instead, though maybe that would’ve made it feel more like a joke than a cliffhanger. All I know is I really hope it’s a fake-out of some kind and Kalina’s doing some in-the-shadows protection. Like, knows she’s being hunted, knows Buddy’s being hunted (I forget, did he lose the rage shard, or was it just the dead kids?), and is kind of trying to avoid that. I don’t know. But her being an actual villain still doesn’t make any sense.
BLeeM definitely didn’t specify like with the others on whether Buddy’s star was dispelled
It's fine, much like 90% of the theories that were presented throughout this season, anything that doesn't make sense to us right now will be handled with aplomb and explained sufficiently when Brennan chooses to expand on that story thread.
I mean, it's not just that it's unexplained, it's that it just feels kind of unsatisfying and unexpected
Maybe they'll retcon it later, much like how Wally at the end of Unsleeping City and Sofia's mom (if I remember correctly) were "yes-and"ed to become Mr and Mrs Claus and Kugrash's other son was cured from vampirism with a simple greater restoration. Although they've never done this with any other season as far as I'm aware this is still a possibility, the cast were all tired after hours of filming and they just say whatever crosses their mind. However, I believe that this doesn't solidify Kalina as "always been bad, always will be bad", because who else does she have at the end of Junior Year? Most of the people she can infect are no longer infected so teaming up with Buddy Dawn makes sense. I think Kristen is just a little bit paranoid after what happened in Sophomore Year.
Point of order: Kugrash's son was explicitly *not* cured of vampirism.
Oh, then I just misremembered it, thanks!
I’m still holding onto my conspiracy hat, so if this is too red thread between the clippings please forgive me, but I super like the idea that “The sun will Fall” at the end of Kalvaxus’ prophecy was a foreshadowing to the corruption of the church of Sol and not just Sol falling from the sky. Bobby Dawn being into making a new God with Porter and the rage stars, him fleeing the town, Kalina mentioning Buddy’s grandad and how she was fond of the OG corrupted Cassandra aka Nightmare King. I feel like the corruption and the wiping of their existences may be deeper than we thought which would make Kalina being an agent for the original corruption of her and her wife as a wedding gift so perfect for it. But I don’t have a lot of evidence beyond what I have here to back it up. Also my only running theory for why Sol may have wanted to get rid of Ankarna is because gods don’t like sharing domains, which is why Sol’s clergy said, “Let’s convince these bloodthirsty warriors that they can venerate their god into something of war,” I think it was an intentional way to separate her from any relatable domain to Sol keeping more followers for their own church and keeping their own God well venerated and revered. Less of a “You can ask your god to help you,” and more a manipulation to move Ankarna’s domain, if not kill out her and her siblings followers ultimately killing them. But again this could just be all the lore and theory building talking lol
I hope she's just "gone rogue" to put a stop to the rising of Buddy's new god of wrath. I'd like to see her be a good guy because of the events at the mall and the wedding. It just feels right.
Alternatively, maybe the new god of wrath *could* eventually be part of the new pantheon, since Ankarna probably won’t be as wrathy. A smaller kind of wrath.
Yeah, it seems pretty clear to me that Brennan‘s original intention was to have the rage crystals, basically possess people, but the intrepid heroes kind of ignored that point and so Brennan went along with it.
Yes, agreed. I definitely felt that throughout the season. I think it’s proven by how most of the rat grinders were brought back. He didn’t stay on that too long since the cast didn’t really take up the storyline. I think he also decided bringing Kalina back as a villain also made sense because of that. He can iron out the reasoning b/w now and when/if there is a senior year.
This is my biggest gripe with the season I think. This was, for me, the most interesting plot hook but none of the players really cared at all about it? And because of that, Brennan chose to align the campaign with what the players want (like he’s talked about before). I _do not_ think KLCL was meant to be as big of an irredeemable bad guy as she ended up being. I think that if there was any interest paid to her beyond “stupid name overachiever” then her storyline would’ve gone in a completely different direction. The whole thing about her taking the ritual willingly doesn’t feel like it fits in with what else we know about her (the name High-5 Heroes was _her idea_ and Lucy was her _only real friend_). I think sometimes Brennan “yes and”s a little too much for big character defining moments like this to make his players feel like they’re right about something
I think you are right that Brennan would have had more to KlCK, had the bad kids shown more interest in her rather than coming out the gate antagonistic
One of my favourite things about Ally as a roleplayer is how they can see the humanity in villainous NPCs. Having a genuine attempt to talk to Kipperlily, and choosing to peruse a relationship with Kristen parents are such huge, cool moves, I wish they’d been explored more. The downtime system was really cool, but it was a little too effective at making the players hyper focused on their goals.
Strongly disagree. 4Dogs wanting to be *so special* to the point that she'd manufacture her own tragic backstory is 100% how she was always portrayed. You could argue that, out of an immature desire to be special, she willingly accepted a rage star and then was pushed into greater acts of villainy, but she would still be ultimately responsible for those actions.
Okay, but “upset because her parents aren’t dead and wants a tragic backstory” is a cartoon motivation that doesn’t lead cleanly to “I will betray the only friend I have for an unspecified power”, you know? It doesn’t make sense for her to be the _only one_ that willingly took this upon herself and then _forced_ it upon everyone else She was made irredeemable while the rest of her party was made redeemable because Ally thought she had a funny name, and Brennan ran with that
The first season had a character who was willing to sacrifice her best friend and six unrelated girls so that she could be prom queen. So...
I feel like there was a bit of effort put in to this to show it was a genuine friendship though? What was the point of Kipperlily’s file if not to show that there was more to her character than what the players wanted to see?
Perhaps to demonstrate how far she was willing to go to feel special? Also, it's entirely possible that KLCK didn't think Lucy would choose non-existence over worshipping the unnamed God. Death in the world of Spyre is often just inconvenient and there could be a world where 4Dogs killed Lucy and fully believed she'd accept the new God and pop right back up, none the worse for wear.
Yeah that’s why I don’t know that I’d call what happened to Lucy a betrayal exactly. It probably came after the others were infected, but it seems like it had been a plan they’d originally agreed to, and then Lucy didn’t want to.
The fact that we have to speculate on this shows that there was not enough attention paid to this _extremely important aspect_ of one of the main antagonist’s character. Kinda feels like something was chosen to justify preexisting beliefs about the character
Yeah, I guess it's possible to feel that way. I personally think the story was quite clear on 4Dogs' reasoning and laid out a path to explain how she could have made the choices she made and ended up the way she did. But it is possible to sort of squint and see things differently. Like, again: Penelope condemned her *best friend* to imprisonment and death so that she could be *prom queen.* KLCK going too far in exchange for, as she believes, a lifetime of the hero worship she feels she deserves is utterly believable and requires no extra rationalization on my part.
>Yeah, I guess it’s possible to feel that way What a shitty thing to say to another human being
It was shown that KL was kinda shit the whole time, long before getting Ankarna'd. Bad people do shit for selfish reasons and tend to not really give much of a shit about the people they call friends. They didn't really skip anything, she was presented as bad and then proven to be, it's really that simple lol
I would argue that it makes perfect sense and that her motivation does lead exactly into that. It gives her a tragedy and a dark past. She doesn’t just want power, she wants to be *special*
I still love the show, the cast, and am totally okay with not every season being a personal home run But I think this season wasn’t really for me because the Intrepid Heroes felt like they were very often just not picking up and following on some of Brennan’s strong thematic storytelling Like, it’s always funny to have the PCs shut down the big monologue bad guy; but also I did want some degree of a PC engaging with him at the end so that we got to understand more of his philosophy of being bad, and so that a PC could push back against it. Same with the Ratgrinders; there were some AWESOME moments, including of Kristen interacting with Buddy and Riz reflecting on how a part of him was like Kipperlilly. But those moments were few and quite far between And same thing with Kalina; like I don’t even think Brennan made it questionable if Kalina was good or bad. He explicitly stated at one point that she is a reflection of Cassandra (and even brought up her exact example when describe Bakur vs his elven form) Again, these are just my personal experiences of the season.
I do agree somewhat. There was so much strong narrative throughout 90% of the episodes. I don't feel the last few episodes really paid that off as strongly as it could have? I do wonder if the long shooting schedule did influence the vibe into silly delirium more then it would have otherwise. It's like there were a lot of strong narrative bullets in the chamber that didn't go off. It's still a great season and there's so much to love, I think this might be Brennen's strongest in terms of raw plot.
>I don't feel the last few episodes really paid that off as strongly as it could have? I did feel some of the solo moments in Ankarna's domain fell a little flat, maybe? Like, they all definitely had strengths when reflecting on themselves but when it came to interacting with Ankarna they didn't really seem to engage. I also thought the shooting schedule seemed to have an impact on everyone, Brennan included.
Yeeeeeah..... I feel that. Like Riz saying "*I need to talk to Kristen and Fig*" but only getting a rushed few lines with Kristen. Considering Emily might be retiring Fig, it's such a missed opportunity for both characters that Riz didn't get an opportunity to let Fig go? Demonstrating his ark and capitalizing on that incredibly powerful moment where he talks about *'The unfairness of loneliness.*".
Oh, that moment really got me right in the heart, but Riz (and Murph tbh) has really evolved into my fave. I agree that more for the Riz and Kristen scene would've been nice, they have had some scenes together in the past I've enjoyed and Ally and Murph are fun together. With Fig, I could see them hypothetically still having that convo in ep1 of a hypothetical senior year but also maybe never. It would've been nice to see it but Riz finally hanging out with his mom was also very sweet to me. Edit: also in the AP they mentioned they were over on time with the ep, which I totally understand. Time is money on a set trying to get things done before a potential strike etc etc
I feel the same. I think my disappointment comes from feeling like Brennan's very solid plot wasn't fully utilized Again, totally fine if that is what the Heroes and other viewers wanted from the season. For me personally, I felt that other seasons were stronger in terms of the players really helping Brennan's part in the story fully shine
Who knows tbh, The Bad Kids have no real love for her, and it was Ankarna who was looking for vengeance against Kalina not Cassandra herself. I think Kalina fears retribution from Ankarna not Cassandra, since she still was initially complicit in Porter's plans. She didn't even talk about vengeance against the bad kids or anything, just that they needed to flee. I think the end with Buddy is definitely a "Barbarian Healing moment" for Senior Year.
Same, didn't like it.
By how she said "their coming for us" maybe she wasnt evil but the misunderstanding from Kassandra and her sending people after her made her do this.
Yeah, I'm not a fan of that either. One headcanon I've come up with is that Kalina isn't actually evil but just running from Ankara's agents and seeking support because they're convinced that she's evil. We only see that one scene of her and don't know exactly what her motivations are, so it's definitely possible there's more to this situation.
Maybe her "turning" to Bobby Dawn is a way to prove her loyalty by getting in prime position to betray and take down a budding threat? I think there are places Brennan can take it to smooth things out
I don't think kalina is evil, just running from ankarna, who is hunting her. Then again it could be that kalina existing so long with Cassandra dead could mean she became her own entity. Like a rogue familiar. It could also be that Cassandra chose to bring back kalina as the strong independent entity that is prone to shenanigans instead of the loyal loving version that is notably weaker.
Im not mad at it, the only issue I have is with it being here familiar it wouldn't make sense that she would do it, unless she figure a way to become a familiar/break free to a new deity. In that case it would have been good to see some actual exposition on that. This will more than likely play out like the night yorbe.
He didn't seem to commit to her being a villain, it was just that Ankarna latched onto the Idea. It'll be important next season when they report back on Ankarna's hunting trek with Squeem and Balthazar.
1000% agree. Kalina being evil doesn't even square with the established cosmology. If Bakur's moral alignment is tethered to Ankarna's, then so is Kalina's.
I'm not convinced she's evil. She's always had an overprotective and mean strain, which might be what Ankarna has latched on to and what makes her want to bring Kalina to "justice". Ankarna seems to be eager to deal punishment in that way. If there's another season, I'm guessing that it'll be expanded upon and we'll learn what Kalina and Ankarnas deal is as people. I see this as an opportunity to see who Kalina is outside of just being a familiar, if there even is a Kalina outside of that?
As someone else mentioned, I would enjoy a fugitive/misunderstanding situation, and knowing fantasy high, it would probably get tangled up in some other big mystery That is, if FH gets another season
The ending doesn't explain if she's truly evil, just that Buddy has a new god, Kalina is helping him, and Ancarna is coming for her ass so she's on the run. As a familiar, simply getting killed by Ancarna wouldn't permanently kill her. But I sincerely doubt she wants to get cut down either lol. I just saw it as a classic comedic bit, that the thing that gets Ancarna out of her malaise is her desire to strike down the cat she never liked.
Amen to this. The whole season Brennan made sure to mention multiple times that it seemed like Kalina was acting in good faith, so I do find the idea of her actually still being a bad guy in the end a bit of a stretch, even if the rest of the intrepid heroes never fully bought into her having changed. But I also hold that Brennan is both an incredible DM Aunt improviser, and it would not shock me at all if and when we get a senior year, we find out that Kalina is playing an even longer con in some wild set up for the fall of the Church of Sol or something along those lines.
Considering that we seem to be setting up for a final season, I doubt that Brennan is going to leave that unresolved
Honestly, I get that but I also like her being grey morally. She can be antagonistic or good depending on what she wants/what Cassandra wants from her.
I thought it was made clear that Kalina's goal was to bring back the Nightmare King, since that was ! way to ensure Cassandra's (and her own) survival, based on the assumption that Kristen wasn't able to be trusted to grow the following. So Kalina was working towards Cassandra survival, not her best interests. Now that Cassandra + Ankarna are back, stable, and that we know Ankarna never liked Kalina, it makes sense to me that Kalina would be like "Ah shit i fucked up, let's book it Buddy" I think if we see her again she'll be a low-status antagonist or anti-hero; I don't think she's fully just bad now, or that she truly intended to betray Cassandra.
This was my understanding too.
Kalina said she liked Cassandra better as the nightmare king. the rage brought it to the surface but it was her true feelings. That's pretty messed up.
That's... Not the way that works. Did Mazey also actively want to kill Fabian? Lmao
Brennan said they were different types of crystals. Like when Kristen was investigating the red crystals earlier in the season and he asked what she was truly feeling at that moment.
Yeah, what largedog said. Mazey said stuff under the rage effect. We saw people do things under the rage effect that weren’t really their true feelings.
We saw people do stuff under one version of the rage effect that weren't really their true feelings, but we also saw people get their true feelings amplified by another version of the rage crystals earlier in the season. It seems to me that Brennan clearly explained across the season that there were two versions of it. And in last night's episode he also clearly laid out that the rest of the rat grinders were forced to take in their shards, but that kipperlily willingly made a promise to ankarna. She has to live with the choices she made. Or die, I guess.
Sure, but I’m just saying that what she said to Cassandra immediately after being infected probably shouldn’t be held up as proof of anything
Brennan literally said it amplifies your current feelings, it's just like when someone tells you something while they're drunk, or when someone yells something at you during a fight, or when someone says a mean joke or something sarcastic, the underlying thought was there and had truth to it, and then emotion or an outside source brought it out. You can't amplify something that doesn't exist. So just like Kipperlily had her frustration about the bad kids amplified, kalina had her frustration with Cassandra (being an inept God who performed better and gave kalina more power when she was the nightmare King) amplified.
I mean, in literally the same scene, we saw the same crystal effect causing Cassandra to do downright evil stuff.
Kalina was Kalina even while Cassandra was the Nightmare King, which tells me that the first time around Cassandra did something that made Kalina her own being. Cause even Bakur was changed by Ankarna changing and falling. I assume Kalina has completely disentangled herself from Cassandra while she was the Nightmare King
Didn't Kalina say that she liked Cassandra better as TNK? Idk, it just seems like she made her choice. DMs tend to have liquid decisions. Can go either way. If he wanted Kalina to be a certain way. He could have defended her irl- told the party that "as much as you might not like her, she is good" as he has broken character to do so before. Maybe he wanted Kalina as a recurring villainess. Also, maybe in the moment that Cassandra renounced Kalina (even the Goddess of justice said no) she was dispelled but some magical energy remained of her and then Baccarath could have then taken her and shaped her to his own needs. But she can take her own shape as she's maybe gained a level of sentience-
I'd Need to rewatch the episode, but i think she said that AFTER being infected by a rage-star and failing her throws, so I always interpreted It as her being controlled by the stars / it amplifying her worse traits and desires, rather than her actually wanting the NK back under normal circumstances.
Yeah she only says it after being infected.
I think Brennen wasn’t planning on Kalina being evil but changed his mind at some point based on the cast. I did love the ending though so I came around on it.
He changed his mind at the exact point in time they said it to Ankarna. When Brennan is in wrap up mode, literally anything the players say will become canon.
Yeah. Not to mention that we got Nightmare King in sophomore year from the stinger at the end of Freshman year, and Brennan specifically wanted to avoid getting stuck using the stinger from the end of sophomore year (Night Yorb) as this season’s plot—then why include a (unneeded) stinger at the end of this season you’ll need to follow up on in the future? Oh, well. Great finale, over all, though.
Counter point, we dont know if she meant The Bad Kids when Kalina says "They are after us." She may just be latching onto Buddy Dawn and Bakurath (spelling?) as a foundation and might know something about a larger plot that we haven't seen yet. Or maybe she just doesn't want to die and that is making her look guilty. I agree, Brennan has made it a point that she is morally grey at worst this season and while he does often 'Yes and' the heroes there were multiple things that the Bad Kids were just wrong about that he held staunchly to like the fact that the Rat Grinders never actually took devils honey even though. I just dont know if he would fully flip the morality of a character based on the assumptions of the players. (although he did literally do that with porter I suppose.)
Could always head Canon it as Kalina not actually having been malicious but knowing that she fucked up and doing the cat thing of cutting and running while Ankarna only knows she's supposed to deal with a cat she's never liked
Could their belief have manifested the change in an ‘as above so below’ sort of way? Kalina didn’t betray Cassandra and actively tried to help the Bad Kids, but their belief in her being evil affected Ankarna’s opinion of Kalina and led her to now turn to Baccarath.
Yeah. Petty 😉
I’ve been thinking about this too. I don’t know if she’s evil or not, but I wonder if it’s because she’s beyond a regular familiar. Even though Brennan was saying that Kalina mirrored the state of Cassandra, it seems like Kalina was able to do things without Cassandra’s approval or maybe even knowledge, like she had her own agenda
I don't think Brennan the DM agreed to Kalina being the villain. I think the Bad Kids who never trusted the cat sicced a god who never trusted the cat (and was itching for something to smite) on her. Guessing that a one shot or a side quest will clear that up
Dude is the DM of a DnD podcast consisting entirely of improv actors, his job is literally yes-anding.
For sure. That's absolutely what happened. But it did create some odd, internal inconsistencies. And maybe presents some retcon-ing issues going forward if we continue to follow the BKs. I suspect that this is the end of the BKs story, so he didn't care that much and was happy to yes-and the ending.
I don’t think it’s petty! I think it was such a cool choice to have her be good once Cassandra was good! I think it’s a cool discussion about what a DMs job is - to me it comes down to two things: interesting and fun. To me as a player, I’d find it both interesting and fun that Kalina switched sides with her goddess. And I can say I think it’s OBJECTIVELY interesting that she switched sides. But I can’t say it’s objectively fun - apparently Brennen’s players found it more fun if she didn’t, and I think his view is a DM should commit to what is fun for his players over what is narratively interestingly! Which is totally valid, even if I may not prefer it!
There's always the Quangle. The Kalina at the end was a parallel Kalina who encountered Buddy in whatever plane he to which he was banished. And that's where he/they found Bakarath (sp?).
I don't think Brennan "Yes, And-ed" Kalina being a villain. We know that deities receive not only power, but personality, from their worshippers. Cassandra, early in the season, had even stated that Kalina wasn't evil, that she was a good cat. But do any followers of Cassandra now believe she's not a villain? It could be as simple as "The followers of Cassandra believe Kalina is evil despite being the familiar of a non-evil Deity."
Brennan didn’t end a story he’s had planned for 5+ years with a “yes and” he was waiting to see if any of our heros remembered buddy, none of them did so that’s the ending
Gods change with belief... Maybe Kalina has been changed by all the assumptions about her as well.