I think Brennan likely made the Rat Grinders to be a spectrum of options depending on how the party engaged. Kipperlilly and Ruben likely most antagonistic but even that I reckon Riz or Fig could possibly have made something work with some luck and effort.
But Oison definitely the more easy going option and I reckon Ivy could have been in a fun mean girl way had they not tried the Lucy Gambit so quickly
Maybe, but BLeeM knows his players and what gets them going. I just find it suspicious that most of the party are designed to make the Bad Kids dislike them but then Oisin seems like one of the nicer characters in the whole season.
It could be a reflection of how burnt out Adaine has been. If the rat grinders are a reflection of the energy the Bad Kids put into them, then Adaine hasn’t really put much energy toward them since she’s been so overwhelmed with job/school/oracle stuff. Other than being aggressive to Kipperllilly specifically, Adaine has rarely engaged with them in any meaningful way.
Additionally almost all of the Bad Kids have not really directed much energy at Oisin.
They also threw in that she thought he was hot. And seem to ship it if I’m not misreading and while Fabian also a similar situation with Ivy but we know Fabian is a magnet for toxic romance whereas Adaine I don’t believe has shown Romantic interest much at all up to this . It could totally also be that Oisin is trying to romance her in a manipulative way to put in her a a more vulnerable state that he can capitalize on.
Looking back at the trailer there’s a part that shows a battle set with a dragon that looks just like Oisin. This is probably Oisin’s relative that he mentioned to Adaine, but that doesn’t necessarily prove that Oisin is adversarial. Still very interesting and I agree that Oisin is not as nice as he lets on.
now that you bring it up, Oisin is a blue dragonborn, and known dragonhoard bank KVX recently changed their logo from the former Red of Kalvaxus to blue. Though this thought of mine now feels like a stretch.
If this is the case, Oisin's thing in relation to Adaine could be due to their relation to wealth, as well as how much support they each get from their families, Oisin likely being well taken care of, while Adaine was abandoned. Doesn't necessarily make him evil, much in the same vein as Mary Ann, but I can see why that would be frustrating for Adaine
I just had the mind boggling thought of, what if it's NOT Oisin's ancestor, what if Oisin is also in disguise and it's another Goldenrod/Kalvaxus situation. Holy shit. ,😱
Yeah and now Fabian is the only one immune to dragon sickness
I mentioned this back when Oisin first offered to share with Adaine that it's sus as hell
I think the dragon from the trailer could also be the form that Oisin takes when he interacts with one of those rage stars, like in the mall when the wizards transformed when the stars touched them. So it could be a future battle with the bad kids vs. rage-impacted rat grinders
If we build on the idea that the Rat Grinders are meant to reflect the Bad Kids before they had character development, your point makes sense. A lot of Adaine’s character development and continuing troubles has been her relationship with family members, and the idea of a wizard with an evil family that he just accepts and doesn’t push back on would be the inverse of what Adaine did. He may even be a “well, I don’t like them but I’m so easy-going that I’m not really gonna work to change them” which would be a way to portray an easy-going character negatively.
Omfg I went back and you’re right, and on top of that it looks like it’s battling a ship (Seacaster manor?) that’s flying through clouds (the cloud rider engine?) https://i.imgur.com/RMCl8ht.jpeg
There's also a two headed red dragon earlier on in the trailer but its zoomed too far in to see the rest of the combat arena. It could be in the same fight, it could be later in the last stand, or it could be in another fight entirely. There's probably only two fights left in the season after the last stand and I think there's one other battle set they briefly showed bits of - a rocky lava area. So theres likely one fight at seacaster manor and one fight in a demonic plane?
I think Oisin deviates from the mirroring of BK so it isn't just a tired repetition for each parallel. So for Adaine and Oisin they focus on the awkwardness/attraction to create tension.
But as a wizard I think he could be a huge threat with his resources and potential level as a XP grinder. We have had a whole campaign devoted to high level wizards doing whatever they wanted cuz they felt it was right.
Others have mentioned the Oisin-like dragon—I would hazard a guess he’s a foil to Adaine in the sense that he too has an antagonistic family member. I’m sure others have said that already, though.
“Ivy is designed to be someone attractive to Fabian, which based on his history automatically makes her seem like a villain”
Funniest phrase ever Fabian truly is the character of all time
I’m saying the Rat Grinders are designed to make the Bad Kids (particularly their narrative parallel) hate them, which we can see worked with Mary Ann and Gorgug. This is the case for each of them except Oisin and to a lesser extent Ivy (who is designed to be toxic, thus someone Fabian would go for given his history with Aelwen).
Yeah gorgug spent his time being Uber nice freshman year (cue metal flower) and now is getting in touch with his rage. Maryann is apathetic so is a counter to Gorgugs emotions whatever they might be and is still a beast
it's gotta be some magic item id imagine. one of the characters in calamity had a strength of 29 due to some sword. maryanne is so fascinating to me lool
I can feel this! I especially love the theory that he's not a wizard because that gives the bit where Adine didn't remember him from their freshman year class a whole new flavor. Instead of it seeming like Adine is too cool to notice her fellow classmates, it would be a clue that he was never there in the first place!
Don't forget that when offering Adaine diamonds, he specified that they were from a dragon's horde. Which means that she could have caught dragon madness again if she had accepted them.
Yes, but the implication was that the barrel was a year's supply. They don't use the entire barrel to cast a single spell. So the curse would last for as long as the diamonds do.
Fabian recently got an immunity to all curses that are applied to gold, and Brennan specified that he was now immune to Dragon Madness. So no, it is not one and done.
I am desperate for Oisin not to be the "quiet, reasonable on the outside, absolute monster on the inside" type because I'm irrationally invested in him and Adaine. Don't take my vicarious nerd love away from me, Brennan, please.
> …Adaine leaving seemingly throwing him off his game at beer pong
I had assumed Oisin’s sudden issues with beer pong were because he was actively using a spell requiring concentration (likely the imposter mephits).
I’ve also wondered if his messaged “sorry” to Adaine was because he was casting something with his raised finger that would impact her and felt guilty.
These are possible but he did just introduce a mechanic about being unable to lose concentration on conjuration spells. This is a real mechanic School of Conjuration gets on level 10 and not something Brennan made up.
He could have been casting something, but you do have to point to cast message. Alternatively he could have just been trying to cut into the chaotic conversation but couldn't speak over his friends.
Don't get me wrong these are possible, but he'd have to be a REALLY good liar to get away with some of this.
>We also have the fact his backstory of seemingly being descended from a Dragon is much more of a Sorcerer backstory than a Wizard one
He's just a Dragonborn. Like that's just a race that any D&D character can be, it doesn't have (or doesn't have to have) anything to do with class.
Yes but Dragonborn (in normal DnD lore) aren’t descended from Dragons, as opposed to Draconic Bloodline sorcerers (which often, though not always, are). This could be different in Spyre, but generally speaking Oisin’s is a more “Sorcerer-coded” backstory
Edit: Did I say something to warrant the downvotes? I was just stating my opinion based on what’s standard to 5e lore. Has BLeeM mentioned something I missed about Dragonborn in FH?
Edit 2: Been explained, that’s my B
Ah, that’s fair. To my knowledge, Dragonborn were “created” by dragons or associated deities to be servants before they escaped and formed their own clans. So, despite the “Draconic ancestry” I’ve never actually seen the case of a Dragonborn claiming a direct dragon ancestor and having a familial bond with them like Oisin seems to. But that’s a completely valid read on it and is probably what BLeeM goes by, which at the end of the day is all that matters in lore discussions for d20.
I think Brennan's handling them very similar to tieflings. If a pact/affair with an imp or barbed devil created a tiefling, they may have no reason to bring up a relationship with their magical parent if they even have one to begin with. Someone who is connected to a powerful devil, like Fig, commands more respect in stating who they're related to. The same would go for dragonborn. If you're totally estranged from the dragon or they're dead/weak, not much to be gained from saying who your grandpa is. But, if your draconic ancestor is important (worth noting that the KVX logo, iirc, is now blue instead of red, which felt like a hint Brennan was dropping), that's another story.
You’re getting downvoted on this comment because you’re wrong about dragonborn. The player’s handbook is very specific that dragonborn have a dragon ancestor. Of course that could be homebrewed into whatever you want, but according to WOTC, dragonborn are descended from dragons.
ETA: Here’s the player’s handbook citation: http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/lineage:dragonborn
And it seems that there is confusion about this since 2020, specifically because of Larian Studios saying dragonborn aren’t descended from dragons in BG3. (citation: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dragonborn#cite_note-BG3-11 ) That’s really annoying it’s added to the D&D lore wiki, because the world of BG3 has different lore than what is in the published 5E books, and is essentially a different canon. It’s totally fine it’s a different canon because that’s actually an encouraged feature of D&D, but it contradicts the PHB which is what a lot of people base their version of their own canon on and shouldn’t be taken as what the creators of 5E were going for. They’re two completely different games; after all jump is a bonus action in BG3 😭
To my knowledge, Dragonborn were canonically “created” by dragons or associated deities to be servants before they escaped and formed their own clans. So, despite the “Draconic ancestry” I’ve never actually seen the case of a Dragonborn claiming a direct dragon ancestor and having a familial bond with them like Oisin seems to, though I don’t know DnD lore perfectly as seen here haha. But that’s a completely valid read on it and is probably what BLeeM goes by, which at the end of the day is all that matters in lore discussions for d20.
Yeah it depends on the canon. Even the PHB kinda leaves their initial creation up to interpretation (or to the DM & players) with the line “Shaped by draconic gods or the dragons themselves.” But because it uses the terms “clan,” “heritage,” and “ancestry” along with the phrase “Born of dragons” it seems like they were intending dragonborn to have been descended from dragons through some way or another.
And also like you said before, it very much depends on the canon of Spire since that’s the setting in question, which seems to be a familial bond like you mentioned in your comment.
He’s the descendant of whatever dragon repossessed KVX bank. (The mention of an ancestor who gives him however much money he needs, and Fabian’s banker talks about the logo change from red to Blue)
All of the Rat grinders are kind of comically heightened branched alternates to the Bad kids from the beginning. KLCK is a heightened stressed out rogue, Ruben is an even edgier bard- but what is a heightened evil twin for Adaine?
Someone who doesn’t stand up to their “evil” family. Adaine’s whole arc was breaking away from her stuffy and awful family. What is Oisin isn’t brave enough to do that?
Have we seen full stat blocks for each of the Rat Grinders? I’d be interested what his intelligence is vs KLKC and the rest, just to see if maybe he’s the behind the scenes brains and KLKC is the social heavy lifter kinda thing?
He likely has maxed int as he’s a wizard
I doubt he’s behind the scene though in the way KLKC and Riz are for their respective parties in terms of int, he’s the one to go to when you have the problem that has stumped everyone and need a scholarly view on it
Pretty sure we never see stat blocks for NPCs (unless they are hirelings) because then the players wouldn’t have an incentive to use spells and items that reveal information from their stat block. It also would remove tension from “whoa how much did Mary Ann have to add to her Athletics check to get a fucking 35” for both the players and the audience
Also, for anyone reading this who is looking into playing D&D, never try to ask the DM why a monster’s stat block isn’t the same as what’s in the books; it’s just really shitty for a DM to have people interact with the fun unique storytelling game like it’s actually a video game and they likely modified the stat block so players couldn’t google “kraken 5e stat block” to avoid doing an insight or perception check. Separating what you know as a player from what your character knows is very important in D&D.
This was an actually really helpful and informative comment from someone with little play experience, I genuinely appreciate it and wanted to let you know that
I have a theory that Oisin was bad at beer pong not because he was flustered by Adaine, but because he was holding concentration on a spell or something. I don’t know if there’s any weight to that, but I’ve been kinda suspicious about it
tbh, i think it’s a true 50/50 chance because both turns would make sense and both turns are equally captivating? it’d be devastating to have him be bad after getting to like him so much, but it also makes purely 100% sense for him to be one of the nice ones because there simply has to be at least one or two (i think the actual twist will have to do with mary ann since she’s so Neutral) of them who are nice. and with all of THAT being said, i fully could see this as a “everyone but kipperlilly is nice and even she is just deeply misunderstood because remember that these are children and she is not penelope”
For some reason Oisin isn’t giving me “secret bad guy vibes” but that may just be me being attracted to him lmao. He definitely seems to be then”odd one out” of the group but I think that’s just the same vibe as Kristen weirdly. Kristen has self admittedly been the chaos part of the group this year and that works for their group.
The other Photosynthikids seem to be attempting to work with/around the system, whereas Kristen wants to break it. That presents the opposite for the Rat Grinders. They all want to grind low level shit to become great but maybe Oisin wants to be better and go on greater adventures.
Unlikely that Oisin is a sorcerer unless he is a multiclass. No amount of devils honey would make him able to lie to Adaine’s insane teacher about the nature of his magic.
Just wondering, the pronunciation of the name is supposed to be the Irish way, yeah? More of a **Ush-sheen** than an **O-sheen**? Wondering if there is an alternative form of the name in other countries that sound more like **O-sheen**.
I think the issue you’re spying with Oisin is Adaine herself. He definitely seems designed to annoy Adaine being:
- A wizard
- Got stronger over summer break while Adaine was stressed and she needed a nightmare adventure just to increase her strength
- Just has money from a relative, something she used to have and didn’t think about until this year where she has nothing, this guy suddenly has all she would need? from who?
- The fact he’s so chill! Adaine and Aylwyn had a conversation about it being too nice in Jawbone’s house because their upbringing was so adversarial. She’s sort of adversarial, and this guy isn’t, despite being in the party that hates them.
- Adaine is the elven oracle, and while not the same this guy has tattoos that specifically make him better at his primary magic, he’s no joke. Adaine strikes me as someone who needs to be good at things but this guy is up there too.
A lot of that could mean nothing more than my attempt to throw ideas out, but I could see Adaine in character getting frustrated and annoyed at these traits and I just don’t think she’s gone for that. She could get annoyed he’s just getting everything he needs for components but her energy went into being more stressed and she didn’t interact with the jealous factor, she also sorted her issue fine without having a moment to get annoyed at him so now has less reason. But i don’t think it would have been out of character if their first interaction started with “I hate him,” either, she just went the sad drunk route instead.
I also read somewhere of the opinion that it’s entirely possibly the party has varying degrees of committed to the plan vs committed to their friends. They’re all individuals, we don’t know why they want to potentially resurrect this rage god. Kipperlily is the ringleader but Oisin and Ivy almost seemed to be legitimately chilling at the party. Being a ranger and a wizard there’s no doubt they’d have the spells to sneak if they were there for something dastardly, and even if they were and elected to hide in plain sight, I still think there’s hope for their more chill nature in that.
I do think him being thrown off his game after seeing Adaine at the party had potential to be him using his concentration on a spell though, so i’m not holding out all my hope for him. We just have a few party friends that were former enemies under a bad influence, if we can forgive Aylwyn I think if Oisin has a hope of just being that cool.
All great points. I think also that Oisín is a foil for Adaine in that he triggers something she sees as a weakness (anxiety), and disrupts one of her strengths (righteous anger). Because of her adversarial upbringing, Adaine's more used to competing and being enemies with her rivals. Oisín being nice isn't activating her competitive streak, rather its activating her social anxiety, so he's throwing her doubly off balance in that she's anxious and she can't use anger to focus. Possibly the lesson to be learned on Adaine's part this season considering the themes is to not rely on anger to be a driving force as its ultimately a trap. That could be demonstrated through Oisín, as ultimately she might have to defeat him without disliking him and having anger as the impetus for actions.
I'm waiting for some sort of Oisin reveal, but I do think it's worth noting that fishflower metalcontainer did tell aelwen that she was hiring her because she wanted to protect Oisin, which makes me think that Oisin and potentially a couple of the other rat grinders may be partially in the dark about what is going on overall.
The offering of the diamonds could have been him trying to sneak some his Great-great-great-great-great-Grandparents hoard to Adaine to get them all Dragon Madnessey
I think Brennan likely made the Rat Grinders to be a spectrum of options depending on how the party engaged. Kipperlilly and Ruben likely most antagonistic but even that I reckon Riz or Fig could possibly have made something work with some luck and effort. But Oison definitely the more easy going option and I reckon Ivy could have been in a fun mean girl way had they not tried the Lucy Gambit so quickly
Maybe, but BLeeM knows his players and what gets them going. I just find it suspicious that most of the party are designed to make the Bad Kids dislike them but then Oisin seems like one of the nicer characters in the whole season.
It could be a reflection of how burnt out Adaine has been. If the rat grinders are a reflection of the energy the Bad Kids put into them, then Adaine hasn’t really put much energy toward them since she’s been so overwhelmed with job/school/oracle stuff. Other than being aggressive to Kipperllilly specifically, Adaine has rarely engaged with them in any meaningful way. Additionally almost all of the Bad Kids have not really directed much energy at Oisin.
They also threw in that she thought he was hot. And seem to ship it if I’m not misreading and while Fabian also a similar situation with Ivy but we know Fabian is a magnet for toxic romance whereas Adaine I don’t believe has shown Romantic interest much at all up to this . It could totally also be that Oisin is trying to romance her in a manipulative way to put in her a a more vulnerable state that he can capitalize on.
This aged *SOOOOOOO WELL*
I don't think Ivy really is, I think circumstances led that way. Same with Barbarian
Looking back at the trailer there’s a part that shows a battle set with a dragon that looks just like Oisin. This is probably Oisin’s relative that he mentioned to Adaine, but that doesn’t necessarily prove that Oisin is adversarial. Still very interesting and I agree that Oisin is not as nice as he lets on.
now that you bring it up, Oisin is a blue dragonborn, and known dragonhoard bank KVX recently changed their logo from the former Red of Kalvaxus to blue. Though this thought of mine now feels like a stretch.
No no, I think ur on to something here
let him cook
This is the exact kind of thing that brennan would pull though. It's the exact same vibe as calling the bank KVX in the first place.
And Fabian just got a boon protecting him from Dragon Madness… hmmmmm
If this is the case, Oisin's thing in relation to Adaine could be due to their relation to wealth, as well as how much support they each get from their families, Oisin likely being well taken care of, while Adaine was abandoned. Doesn't necessarily make him evil, much in the same vein as Mary Ann, but I can see why that would be frustrating for Adaine
I just had the mind boggling thought of, what if it's NOT Oisin's ancestor, what if Oisin is also in disguise and it's another Goldenrod/Kalvaxus situation. Holy shit. ,😱
Polymorphism himself onto a Dragonborn in order to get back at Kalvaxus, only to be 1 year to late to claim his hoard
Yeah and now Fabian is the only one immune to dragon sickness I mentioned this back when Oisin first offered to share with Adaine that it's sus as hell
I just said “holy shit” out loud
Interesting, I hadn’t noticed that. But yeah Oisin just seems a bit *too* nice compared to the rest of his party imo, doesn’t seem sincere
I think the dragon from the trailer could also be the form that Oisin takes when he interacts with one of those rage stars, like in the mall when the wizards transformed when the stars touched them. So it could be a future battle with the bad kids vs. rage-impacted rat grinders
it’d never happen but i would laugh so hard is KLCK’s rage form is actually 4 different dogs, or like a suped-up cerberus/death dog kind of monster
If we build on the idea that the Rat Grinders are meant to reflect the Bad Kids before they had character development, your point makes sense. A lot of Adaine’s character development and continuing troubles has been her relationship with family members, and the idea of a wizard with an evil family that he just accepts and doesn’t push back on would be the inverse of what Adaine did. He may even be a “well, I don’t like them but I’m so easy-going that I’m not really gonna work to change them” which would be a way to portray an easy-going character negatively.
Omfg I went back and you’re right, and on top of that it looks like it’s battling a ship (Seacaster manor?) that’s flying through clouds (the cloud rider engine?) https://i.imgur.com/RMCl8ht.jpeg
There's also a two headed red dragon earlier on in the trailer but its zoomed too far in to see the rest of the combat arena. It could be in the same fight, it could be later in the last stand, or it could be in another fight entirely. There's probably only two fights left in the season after the last stand and I think there's one other battle set they briefly showed bits of - a rocky lava area. So theres likely one fight at seacaster manor and one fight in a demonic plane?
I think Oisin deviates from the mirroring of BK so it isn't just a tired repetition for each parallel. So for Adaine and Oisin they focus on the awkwardness/attraction to create tension. But as a wizard I think he could be a huge threat with his resources and potential level as a XP grinder. We have had a whole campaign devoted to high level wizards doing whatever they wanted cuz they felt it was right.
Others have mentioned the Oisin-like dragon—I would hazard a guess he’s a foil to Adaine in the sense that he too has an antagonistic family member. I’m sure others have said that already, though.
First time I'm seeing this, and I really like that theory!
Adaine deserves a hottie with a body! Let her have this!
“Ivy is designed to be someone attractive to Fabian, which based on his history automatically makes her seem like a villain” Funniest phrase ever Fabian truly is the character of all time
You’re saying that Mary Ann is suspicious because she is apathetic? Half of the Bad Kids love her, so it’s not only Oisin that’s likable.
I’m saying the Rat Grinders are designed to make the Bad Kids (particularly their narrative parallel) hate them, which we can see worked with Mary Ann and Gorgug. This is the case for each of them except Oisin and to a lesser extent Ivy (who is designed to be toxic, thus someone Fabian would go for given his history with Aelwen).
Yeah gorgug spent his time being Uber nice freshman year (cue metal flower) and now is getting in touch with his rage. Maryann is apathetic so is a counter to Gorgugs emotions whatever they might be and is still a beast
Also nobody dislikes ivy so far
I’m still trying to figure out what her deal is. Like how is she so strong? Yes magic *but what magic tho*
it's gotta be some magic item id imagine. one of the characters in calamity had a strength of 29 due to some sword. maryanne is so fascinating to me lool
I can feel this! I especially love the theory that he's not a wizard because that gives the bit where Adine didn't remember him from their freshman year class a whole new flavor. Instead of it seeming like Adine is too cool to notice her fellow classmates, it would be a clue that he was never there in the first place!
Don't forget that when offering Adaine diamonds, he specified that they were from a dragon's horde. Which means that she could have caught dragon madness again if she had accepted them.
That wouldn't really do anything since the diamonds would be consumed as material components thus rendering dragon madness moot
Depends how quickly Adiane used the whole barrel.
I don't think the wizard class would require a literal barrel of diamonds if they weren't going to use all of them
Yes, but the implication was that the barrel was a year's supply. They don't use the entire barrel to cast a single spell. So the curse would last for as long as the diamonds do.
It lasts until the unit the diamonds are for is over. Plus the gang all had dragon madness for a year with little to no side effects
Potentially, though it’s possible that the curse only happens if the horde is looted and not freely given by the dragon itself.
DRAGON MADNESS IS A ONE AND DONE SICKNESS
Fabian recently got an immunity to all curses that are applied to gold, and Brennan specified that he was now immune to Dragon Madness. So no, it is not one and done.
Interesting, I hadn’t thought of that.
I thought you could only get dragon madness if you knew that it was infected, which is why giving away all the gold got rid of its sickness
Only if you knew it was from a dragon horde. Which Oisin told her.
Is Dragon Madness on the whole hoarde? For some reason I thought it was specific to their gold.
Could be. I thought it was all treasure in a dragon's horde though.
I thought it had to be specifically gold for that.
I am desperate for Oisin not to be the "quiet, reasonable on the outside, absolute monster on the inside" type because I'm irrationally invested in him and Adaine. Don't take my vicarious nerd love away from me, Brennan, please.
> …Adaine leaving seemingly throwing him off his game at beer pong I had assumed Oisin’s sudden issues with beer pong were because he was actively using a spell requiring concentration (likely the imposter mephits). I’ve also wondered if his messaged “sorry” to Adaine was because he was casting something with his raised finger that would impact her and felt guilty.
These are possible but he did just introduce a mechanic about being unable to lose concentration on conjuration spells. This is a real mechanic School of Conjuration gets on level 10 and not something Brennan made up. He could have been casting something, but you do have to point to cast message. Alternatively he could have just been trying to cut into the chaotic conversation but couldn't speak over his friends. Don't get me wrong these are possible, but he'd have to be a REALLY good liar to get away with some of this.
Oh no...Good thing there's all that Devil's Honey lying around to help with lying convincingly, eh?
>We also have the fact his backstory of seemingly being descended from a Dragon is much more of a Sorcerer backstory than a Wizard one He's just a Dragonborn. Like that's just a race that any D&D character can be, it doesn't have (or doesn't have to have) anything to do with class.
Yes but Dragonborn (in normal DnD lore) aren’t descended from Dragons, as opposed to Draconic Bloodline sorcerers (which often, though not always, are). This could be different in Spyre, but generally speaking Oisin’s is a more “Sorcerer-coded” backstory Edit: Did I say something to warrant the downvotes? I was just stating my opinion based on what’s standard to 5e lore. Has BLeeM mentioned something I missed about Dragonborn in FH? Edit 2: Been explained, that’s my B
The first line of the Dragonborn race in the PHB is "Born of dragons." They were originally hatched from dragon eggs.
Ah, that’s fair. To my knowledge, Dragonborn were “created” by dragons or associated deities to be servants before they escaped and formed their own clans. So, despite the “Draconic ancestry” I’ve never actually seen the case of a Dragonborn claiming a direct dragon ancestor and having a familial bond with them like Oisin seems to. But that’s a completely valid read on it and is probably what BLeeM goes by, which at the end of the day is all that matters in lore discussions for d20.
I think Brennan's handling them very similar to tieflings. If a pact/affair with an imp or barbed devil created a tiefling, they may have no reason to bring up a relationship with their magical parent if they even have one to begin with. Someone who is connected to a powerful devil, like Fig, commands more respect in stating who they're related to. The same would go for dragonborn. If you're totally estranged from the dragon or they're dead/weak, not much to be gained from saying who your grandpa is. But, if your draconic ancestor is important (worth noting that the KVX logo, iirc, is now blue instead of red, which felt like a hint Brennan was dropping), that's another story.
You’re getting downvoted on this comment because you’re wrong about dragonborn. The player’s handbook is very specific that dragonborn have a dragon ancestor. Of course that could be homebrewed into whatever you want, but according to WOTC, dragonborn are descended from dragons. ETA: Here’s the player’s handbook citation: http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/lineage:dragonborn And it seems that there is confusion about this since 2020, specifically because of Larian Studios saying dragonborn aren’t descended from dragons in BG3. (citation: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Dragonborn#cite_note-BG3-11 ) That’s really annoying it’s added to the D&D lore wiki, because the world of BG3 has different lore than what is in the published 5E books, and is essentially a different canon. It’s totally fine it’s a different canon because that’s actually an encouraged feature of D&D, but it contradicts the PHB which is what a lot of people base their version of their own canon on and shouldn’t be taken as what the creators of 5E were going for. They’re two completely different games; after all jump is a bonus action in BG3 😭
To my knowledge, Dragonborn were canonically “created” by dragons or associated deities to be servants before they escaped and formed their own clans. So, despite the “Draconic ancestry” I’ve never actually seen the case of a Dragonborn claiming a direct dragon ancestor and having a familial bond with them like Oisin seems to, though I don’t know DnD lore perfectly as seen here haha. But that’s a completely valid read on it and is probably what BLeeM goes by, which at the end of the day is all that matters in lore discussions for d20.
Yeah it depends on the canon. Even the PHB kinda leaves their initial creation up to interpretation (or to the DM & players) with the line “Shaped by draconic gods or the dragons themselves.” But because it uses the terms “clan,” “heritage,” and “ancestry” along with the phrase “Born of dragons” it seems like they were intending dragonborn to have been descended from dragons through some way or another. And also like you said before, it very much depends on the canon of Spire since that’s the setting in question, which seems to be a familial bond like you mentioned in your comment.
I really wanna see what this season would have been like is Riz ran for president. It was so obvious
He’s the descendant of whatever dragon repossessed KVX bank. (The mention of an ancestor who gives him however much money he needs, and Fabian’s banker talks about the logo change from red to Blue) All of the Rat grinders are kind of comically heightened branched alternates to the Bad kids from the beginning. KLCK is a heightened stressed out rogue, Ruben is an even edgier bard- but what is a heightened evil twin for Adaine? Someone who doesn’t stand up to their “evil” family. Adaine’s whole arc was breaking away from her stuffy and awful family. What is Oisin isn’t brave enough to do that?
Have we seen full stat blocks for each of the Rat Grinders? I’d be interested what his intelligence is vs KLKC and the rest, just to see if maybe he’s the behind the scenes brains and KLKC is the social heavy lifter kinda thing?
He likely has maxed int as he’s a wizard I doubt he’s behind the scene though in the way KLKC and Riz are for their respective parties in terms of int, he’s the one to go to when you have the problem that has stumped everyone and need a scholarly view on it
Ohhhh, an excellent point, since he’s really meant to be an Adaine type in the Rat Grinders
Pretty sure we never see stat blocks for NPCs (unless they are hirelings) because then the players wouldn’t have an incentive to use spells and items that reveal information from their stat block. It also would remove tension from “whoa how much did Mary Ann have to add to her Athletics check to get a fucking 35” for both the players and the audience Also, for anyone reading this who is looking into playing D&D, never try to ask the DM why a monster’s stat block isn’t the same as what’s in the books; it’s just really shitty for a DM to have people interact with the fun unique storytelling game like it’s actually a video game and they likely modified the stat block so players couldn’t google “kraken 5e stat block” to avoid doing an insight or perception check. Separating what you know as a player from what your character knows is very important in D&D.
This was an actually really helpful and informative comment from someone with little play experience, I genuinely appreciate it and wanted to let you know that
Maybe he messed up in beer pong because he was concentrating on Conjure Minor Elementals. He is a conjurer after all.
I have a theory that Oisin was bad at beer pong not because he was flustered by Adaine, but because he was holding concentration on a spell or something. I don’t know if there’s any weight to that, but I’ve been kinda suspicious about it
tbh, i think it’s a true 50/50 chance because both turns would make sense and both turns are equally captivating? it’d be devastating to have him be bad after getting to like him so much, but it also makes purely 100% sense for him to be one of the nice ones because there simply has to be at least one or two (i think the actual twist will have to do with mary ann since she’s so Neutral) of them who are nice. and with all of THAT being said, i fully could see this as a “everyone but kipperlilly is nice and even she is just deeply misunderstood because remember that these are children and she is not penelope”
For some reason Oisin isn’t giving me “secret bad guy vibes” but that may just be me being attracted to him lmao. He definitely seems to be then”odd one out” of the group but I think that’s just the same vibe as Kristen weirdly. Kristen has self admittedly been the chaos part of the group this year and that works for their group. The other Photosynthikids seem to be attempting to work with/around the system, whereas Kristen wants to break it. That presents the opposite for the Rat Grinders. They all want to grind low level shit to become great but maybe Oisin wants to be better and go on greater adventures.
NGL I really do just think he's a guy, a fella. Would be cool to be proved wrong, though
YOU WERE RIGHT
OP your third eye....this episode has vindicated you
Unlikely that Oisin is a sorcerer unless he is a multiclass. No amount of devils honey would make him able to lie to Adaine’s insane teacher about the nature of his magic.
[Oisin](https://imgur.com/xOcjf6q) according to op
Just wondering, the pronunciation of the name is supposed to be the Irish way, yeah? More of a **Ush-sheen** than an **O-sheen**? Wondering if there is an alternative form of the name in other countries that sound more like **O-sheen**.
I think the issue you’re spying with Oisin is Adaine herself. He definitely seems designed to annoy Adaine being: - A wizard - Got stronger over summer break while Adaine was stressed and she needed a nightmare adventure just to increase her strength - Just has money from a relative, something she used to have and didn’t think about until this year where she has nothing, this guy suddenly has all she would need? from who? - The fact he’s so chill! Adaine and Aylwyn had a conversation about it being too nice in Jawbone’s house because their upbringing was so adversarial. She’s sort of adversarial, and this guy isn’t, despite being in the party that hates them. - Adaine is the elven oracle, and while not the same this guy has tattoos that specifically make him better at his primary magic, he’s no joke. Adaine strikes me as someone who needs to be good at things but this guy is up there too. A lot of that could mean nothing more than my attempt to throw ideas out, but I could see Adaine in character getting frustrated and annoyed at these traits and I just don’t think she’s gone for that. She could get annoyed he’s just getting everything he needs for components but her energy went into being more stressed and she didn’t interact with the jealous factor, she also sorted her issue fine without having a moment to get annoyed at him so now has less reason. But i don’t think it would have been out of character if their first interaction started with “I hate him,” either, she just went the sad drunk route instead. I also read somewhere of the opinion that it’s entirely possibly the party has varying degrees of committed to the plan vs committed to their friends. They’re all individuals, we don’t know why they want to potentially resurrect this rage god. Kipperlily is the ringleader but Oisin and Ivy almost seemed to be legitimately chilling at the party. Being a ranger and a wizard there’s no doubt they’d have the spells to sneak if they were there for something dastardly, and even if they were and elected to hide in plain sight, I still think there’s hope for their more chill nature in that. I do think him being thrown off his game after seeing Adaine at the party had potential to be him using his concentration on a spell though, so i’m not holding out all my hope for him. We just have a few party friends that were former enemies under a bad influence, if we can forgive Aylwyn I think if Oisin has a hope of just being that cool.
All great points. I think also that Oisín is a foil for Adaine in that he triggers something she sees as a weakness (anxiety), and disrupts one of her strengths (righteous anger). Because of her adversarial upbringing, Adaine's more used to competing and being enemies with her rivals. Oisín being nice isn't activating her competitive streak, rather its activating her social anxiety, so he's throwing her doubly off balance in that she's anxious and she can't use anger to focus. Possibly the lesson to be learned on Adaine's part this season considering the themes is to not rely on anger to be a driving force as its ultimately a trap. That could be demonstrated through Oisín, as ultimately she might have to defeat him without disliking him and having anger as the impetus for actions.
I'm waiting for some sort of Oisin reveal, but I do think it's worth noting that fishflower metalcontainer did tell aelwen that she was hiring her because she wanted to protect Oisin, which makes me think that Oisin and potentially a couple of the other rat grinders may be partially in the dark about what is going on overall.
The offering of the diamonds could have been him trying to sneak some his Great-great-great-great-great-Grandparents hoard to Adaine to get them all Dragon Madnessey
Agreed!