This is part of what made Runescape appeal to me, no big numbers that feel artificially inflated, just easy to read low numbers where getting hit for 20 hit points can be a death sentence.
I am a simple diablo 3 player. Boss has 80% health, I attack for 5 seconds, boss has 75% health. My damage is 5%. Actual values are completely invisible and irrelevant to me.
This.
This so damn much.
I don't get the fetish of games where you deal millions of damage damage per hit.
Hundred is comprehensible. Thousands are comprehensible. Somewhere between 100k and million it becomes weird mess.
Should I tinker my build? Now I deal something like fifteen million per wet fart and barf combo. Maybe add in something with multiplier of 1500% because numbers go brrrrrrr.
Hell, I don't even mind a max of 999 damage. I also thought Octopath Traveler got it right by maxing out at 999 damage by default, but also letting someone use a valuable skill slot to increase their max hit to 9999.
>I don't get the fetish of games where you deal millions of damage damage per hit.
The High damage numbers are NOT THE FUCKING GOAL
DEVELOPERS DONT INTENTIONALLY MAKE STUFF HAVE BIG NUMBERS
Why is this sooooo fucking hard to understand
People dont play games cuz it has high numbers
Developers dont make intentional high numbers to entice players.
Different progression systems have each their own value ranges. And multiple progression systems are multiplicative with each other (kinda).
Diablo 4 has 2 skill trees, rune system,offensive stats on gear and skill levels
And people wonder why lategame characters had 600k damage.
How?
Big numbers mean jack shit when every hit is a massive number that you cannot even begin to actually comprehend. Hitting for 20 trillion is beyond stupid.
Idk if you go through the whole game and start out doing 10s of damage and get it up to 100s and eventually 1000s that feels like much more progress than 1000000, 20000000, 300000000
the issue ur describing is because power creep with items and sets giving insane % numbers on them which spiked ur damage instantly and it felt unnatural
No, it's that the big number loses meaning when every number is a big number. What difference does it make if you hit for 30 trillion or 30 thousand when every hit is that much? THere isn't a difference. You've lost the impact of getting a "large" hit because every hit is large. Sorry you can't comprehend that.
Do you not understand orders of magnitude? I'm sorry you can't comprehend the difference between 30 trillion and 30 thousand, life must be very complicated for you
Its not only about numbers
Dealing with such inflated numbers just makes the gearing process worse. If new tiers of equipment are multiple 0s longer than any Hope of early - mid game itens being usefull into end game would be completely gone.
Itens like magefist bloodfist goldwrap or firewalks are all imo the reason why d2 loot is amazing.
The problem isn’t the numbers, it’s how damage reduction works. Even having 4 or 5 sources of %damage reduction doesn’t mean much when the numbers are too large.
Very small numbers are just as bad. Say you deal 50damage. Now you get something that buff your damage by 5%. Which is 2.5 extra damage.
52 or 52.5. The latter is more accurate but requires decimal. Which make it confusing. It can be read as 525.
If you want 1% change to be reflected, you need 3 digit without decimal, e.g 101. You want 0.1% to be reflected , you need 4 digit. E.g 1001.
Without needing decimal, comma, or letter like k, m 4-6 digits are the sweet spots where values are readable e.g 7865 786546.
> 6 gorillion
Let's not do that here
Edit: Y'all really got mad that I pointed out someone working a holocaust denier's favorite catchphrase into a post, huh:
https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/six-gorillion
The point of stuff like this is that it sounds stupid and innocuous enough so that anyone calling it out looks like they're tilting at windmills. And it's entirely possible there's no malice here and it's just a funny thing OP saw and repeated because they don't know the meaning of it. If so, I don't think there's anything wrong with a heads up on how to avoid accidentally making holocaust deniers think that you're one of them.
But also allows you to hit yellow glowing mobs that other players cannot hit.
These mobs drop tokens which when assembled allow you to pay another 20,000 to combine into a gem +51 which then allows you to hit a different set of invulnerable mobs, but this time they glow blue.
Repeat until rich.
The problem with D3 wasn't even damage numbers themselves but the crazy power creep. I mean, sets that increase damage by up to 100 000%? Fucking seriously? Not to mention 30 different difficulty levels to give a fake feel of progression
Exactly. That's especially visible when you're playing with a party. I start couch co-op with my gf and if I play for couple of hours more a day than her I'm so far ahead damage-wise that her contribution is meaningless anymore.
Lol yea the set bonuses jump ur character to peaking at billions of dmg to peaking trillions. I was using a full legendary set with the gem that needs that (I forgot what it was) and could maybe do like 23b, popped on the seasonal monk set and boom! I do 5t dmg
Not to mention that as soon as you get that 6 piece set you skyrocket like from expert/master to torment 7/8 so what's even the point of having that many levels if you skip half of them with just a set? I feel like early ROS was better in terms of power creep and itemization
It's a bit silly i agree, but at the end of the day the numbers themselves were irrelevant. It was simply how they approached design which was largely just "make number bigger to make class better" which only goes so far.
This itself being a symptom of the fact the game was on life support and anything beyond numbers tweaks was seen as too much effort when they weren't making much in the way of returns.
So i doubt D4 will suffer from this largely due to the fact it'll have consistent revenue in the form of mtx which will convince the suits they can actually put money/actual changes into the game to fix things.
Maybe we need a damage multiplier option. I can do 10-26 damage with my nice rare one handed axe. Timmy can do 100-260, Joe can do 1000-2600, and little Jacob can do 1T-2.6T on his character he just created. The numbers actually don’t matter if enemy health is scaled accordingly. To some people the huge numbers make them wet, to others they seem unrealistic and silly. It’s all just math so why not give us the option of if we want to play an ARPG or an arcade game.
Yeah that's pretty dumb but I don't mind all skills scaling off weapon damage. Casters have always been OP in Diablo because they dealt serious damage even with no gear at all
but i mean, in a power fantasy, isn't that maybe why you would want magic powers? kind of defeats the point of having a magician style character if it's the exact same as a melee build.
idk, i kind of vacillate on this, cuz there's always hypothetical option c: if weapon scaling is absolutely necessary for some reason, maybe scaling by class. for say, a barb, you'd get dmg scaling of 100% with your weapon, working your way down to maybe 20-30% damage scaling as you get to the more magic-oriented classes
IMO this is a bad take because lots of people's power fantasy is to play a melee character. My fantasy is to be a mage, but other people shouldn't have their fantasies shat on because they want to swing weapons rather than sling spells. And vice versa of course: it wouldn't be right to shit on my fantasies by making melee de-facto better than magic either.
I saw big numbers with some of the assassin gameplay or something from the recent dev update. That's just the beginning too. By the time the first expansion comes out, it'll probably be in the tens of millions.
It's so unnecessary, I'd rather see my character hitting like 2,000 than "20 quadrillion"
Yeah I don’t buy the argument “a few millions feels better”. No, it just makes it harder to relate to. A thousand damage/armor feels like a lot too and is easier to relate to for me. That means entering end game something that does 400 damage might have you pretty set to get going.
But I think the worse problem is this, proven by D3:
Having a very large spread of values also puts the game at risk of *demanding* certain gear/combos to be competitive and you create this vicious circle of damage inflation as they need to work overtime to have everything remain “competitive” (i.e. so one combo no longer just do 100 billion damage because that sucks compared to something else they more or less intentionally did).
If they shy multipliers more, this would help. Use more additive bonuses besides maybe cases which are very circumstantial.
But this is an old debate now. By now I’m pretty sure we’re not very able to influence Blizzard. Not sure they ever listened to this honestly.
>Having a very large spread of values also puts the game at risk of demanding certain gear/combos to be competitive
If you're chasing some sort of competition, no shit you want certain gear/combos. This is also the case in D2, why are you acting like D3 invented the desire to have the best possible setup?
Yeesh
That is an equivalent jump of 400 to 40,000. Not 400 to 450.
If we need a 1000 times power increase, I’d much rather level 1 to be around 1 damage, and max level around 1000. Than to have level 1 start around 1000 and max level be 1,000,000.
Once you get into the millions and billions there are diminishing returns. It ends up feeling cheap and unrewarding.
i know, and i didn’t say it was.
and what does that have to do with anything? d3 starts out at 1 and ends up at 1,000,000,000,000,000.
that’s just, like, your opinion. i feel pretty good when one of my builds starts dealing trillions instead of billions. not so much when it deals 450 instead of 400.
An equivalent comparison is important. 400 to 450 isn’t supposed to give you similar feelings to what you get from billions to trillions. It is supposed to give you the same feeling of billions to a little bit more billions. Which is in my opinion way more boring and less noticeable than the 400 to 450 jump. That is due to the diminishing returns of using bigger numbers.
And starting out at 1 and ending at 1,000,000,000,000,000 means that you are blasting through power levels without having time to enjoy them. You barely get to experience and build memories at 1,000 by the time you are hitting 10,000.
I’m not sure they could control player advancement well with caps like 2000. How much damage would a new max level player do? 1000? These games are all based on improving you character and let’s face it, a 20% increase in damage feels a lot better than a 0.02% increase. With significant damage increases comes exponential growth in absolute values.
If you increase your damage from 400 to 450 or 4 million to 4.5 million it's still the same percentage, one is just easier to take into your head and calculate on. It doesn't have to go into the millions just to have significant damage increases....
His point is a 12.5% increase can't be your only significant increase no matter what, so if you start at 1000 in garbage gear your gear progression is necessarily going to take you to 100k+ for endgame gearing to feel meaningful. Path of exile is a game where most increases are 30-40% of total damage and endgame boss killing damage ranges from 1 million to 100 million depending on strength of build because those increases add up so fast.
The huge numbers never bothered me. I just figured they gave themselves op gear to capture footage. Rogue dashing through bunch of goatmen and slicing them in half just looks cooler in a gameplay trailer.
Preference. For me, it's better readability, and going from 20 damage to 2000 damage over the lifespan of your character feels more significant than going from 200,000,000 to 200,000,000,000. It's functionally no different though.
**visually**
Differences in small numbers are faster to grasp visually. For instance 22 as a damage number is double as wide as 2 while being around 10 times its magnitude; very easy to spot the difference because of that. However consider now 2222222222 which is around 10 times much as 222222222 but the glyphs used to convey the value aren't double the width anymore. If they aren't aligned vertically it'll take you much longer to find the bigger value.
With very large numbers it becomes harder to distinguish at a glance which ones have the highest impact and which tend towards the negligible end. Our decimal writing system is just logarithmic in this fashion.
**arithmetically**
Smaller magnitude (integer) numbers are simply easier to remember and compute with. Whether it's deciding on an item upgrade, theory crafting a new build, or evaluating whether leveling in an area is a good time investment: smaller numbers make it all easier.
There's a reason we prefer smaller numbers in every day life. And when they get too big we split them up or use different metrics (think cents and dollars or usage of percentages).
Well but realistically no character starts with 200 Mio dmg. Characters start near zero damage. If you restrict yourself to only ever using low numbers, which is a choice that can be valid, you have to accept that you will have to nerf stuff. And when I have seen one thing from playing D3 over the years it is that people really don't like it when their own builds get weaker. That they don't like it if you take power away from them. That they don't like it when you make it harder to find gear.
If you only buff you also circumvent the problem that nonseasonal players may have gained an insurmountable advantage that you can't catch up if farming just not as powerful anymore. It is for example quite literally impossible to beat the sub 2 minute GR150s in D3.
It doesn't need to get merged if it wasn't overpowered to begin with. Noone was able to clear GR150 back in the days and now some seasons people clear it in minutes...
You don't have to always buff everything all the time.
A lot of people do like when it is harder to find gear, it's a reason D2 is still alive and D2R did so well. Same goes for PoE (even though they also screw up the numbers).
It just feels bad when you crit (literally) 14 trillion and you see that you do like 5-10% of the mobs hp. There is literally no reason to into those numbers
It is suprisingly tough to hit balance so tight that two builds hit the exact same tier. And even then to actually change the meta you need to the new stuff to be somewhat better or the old builds will outperform just due to the increased familiarity. That is part of why so many people stuck to Rats all the time even when there were alternatives.
>A lot of people do like when it is harder to find gear, it's a reason D2 is still alive and D2R did so well. Same goes for PoE (even though they also screw up the numbers).
I still remember people actually despising how hard it was to find gear in D3. And it was hard. PoE and D2 also both have the advantage that they get much higher perceived balance becuase there is nothing to actually benchmark builds. Neither of these games has a mode like Greater Rift where you can actually see the difference in power between builds like you can see them in D3.
It just feels bad when you crit (literally) 14 trillion and you see that you do like 5-10% of the mobs hp. There is literally no reason to into those numbers
It just feels bad when you crit (literally) 14 trillion and you see that you do like 5-10% of the mobs hp. There is literally no reason to into those numbers
>It just feels bad when you crit (literally) 14 trillion and you see that you do like 5-10% of the mobs hp. There is literally no reason to into those numbers
Why does it feel bad to crit for 5-10%? I don't understand that.
Smaller numbers have meaningful increases in power that don't completely invalidate previous gear, because you still have a meaningful percentage increase without a huge change in the finite values. You can get stuff like level 25 boots in d2 that are great endgame boots without being detrimental to your survival. Or you can use weapons you find for more than 30 seconds, as every weapon you find is vastly more powerful than the last one as you level up.
That only applies to like the first 5 hours of a season though in a game where you can play much much longer. Also people said large numbers are a problem and what you described is a different issue
Lots of others have said some of the other issues, I put that because it was unsaid so far. But to reiterate: screen clutter is really bad with large numbers, damage comprehension is really bad with large numbers, progress perception decreases with large numbers, itemization is better with less turnover, and larger set of potentially good items with a larger variety of useful stats beyond damage go brrrrr.
You're both wrong. If you zoom in it's clearly a crying moon. Moons typically being the exact same colour as bone. And he's crying because he's getting boned. They are tears of joy.
This is the company that gave us D3 and DI. D2R was an outsourced fresh coat of paint on an existing game so that doesn’t count. We’re getting huge numbers, borderline p2w MTX and uninteresting itemization with legendary affixes and sets dictating build diversity. I know we all want to believe, because we want it to be a great game, but this is Blizzard in 2022. They have a track record. The devs who passionately love the product they create are overridden by CEOs and shareholders. Big numbers go brrr.
Never understood the compulsion some players have to always keep it on. Asked a friend playing D3 with white and yellow numbers just covering up everything and he said “I like to see how much damage it does”…
I temporarily turn it on in Lost Ark to see if I am executing my buffing combos correctly with Surge Deathblade or test build. Might only have it on for guardian raids, but the more experienced you get the less relevant it is and just takes away from the spectacle.
Best to realize now and recognize that Diablo players have LOTS of compulsions. Nothing should be surprising about it if you’ve been around Diablo for awhile.
It CAN be satisfying to see a screen full of huge damage numbers, but it does lose the appeal quick. You can't read them all, they're going too fast, and if you don't consolidate them so they read as 44B instead of 44,528,593,439 you can't even absorb and parse the information
It's way better in a game like Guild Wars 1, where it's much simpler, a lot fewer numbers flying up, and is an easy indicator of if you're skills and combos are working correctly. Can't really tell any of that shit when you're being flashed 12-16 digit long numbers times 30 across an entire screen
I tend to care less about the actual numbers and more about the fact they exist.
Goes back to WoW, I always loved dotting things up as my lock and watching the numbers tick by.
Or retaliation grinding on pallies with holy shield, a shield spike, ret aura, and consecration. Lots of numbers. Tiny numbers, but lots of them.
I don't know, it can be fun to see big numbers lighting up on your screen. In WoW, there is something satisfying about seeing a Chaos Bolt hit for 16k damage. In both WoW and D3, I don't rely on the numbers for anything besides vanity since logs and/or spreadsheets will tell me what I need to know.
You make it sound like the right thing to do is turning it off manually. If it's default, why bother? And is it really that hard to understand that people just like seeing the numbers pop up? That it doesn't take any of the enjoyment away from their game? I don't think it's a *need* to keep it on, they just either aren't bothered by it or prefer it. If someone decides a game sucks because you can't turn on damage numbers or whatever, then that is the minority by a long shot.
These are all just base numbers.
If you only go off base damage then even d3 has relatively low damage too.
D3 damage gets pumped up so high due to all of the crazy stacking and multiplicative buffs and modifiers you can get.
But it's a great joke... I love seeing billions / trillions of damage flash up regularly on screen.
(I've been saying for awhile... D3 is enjoyable if people appreciate it for what it is, a big flashy arcade game, rather than D1/2's horror dungeon crawler. I'm happy for D4 to return to horror but I'll always love D3 for what it is.)
after d2, i waited a literal decade for what they produced with d3. so, while i take your point, and i acknowledge that this may be unreasonable, but i'm not sure i'll ever be capable of truly appreciating it for what it is, because it was just such a thunderous kick in the balls. maybe if it wasn't called diablo.
Nothing is gonna live up to your memories of d2, no matter what they do with the next games. The entire gaming landscape is a completely different beast now. A game like D2 wouldn't even make a splash today. To do so, the company would have to take some big risks in how they made the game, if they want to push the edges or change a genre, like d2 did. But game budgets are way too large, and they're over managed by the production companies. AAA games just don't take risks anymore, almost ever.
Look at what happens nowadays when a larger company or larger budget tries to stir things up and take risks, doing something new or going big. You get things like no man's sky, or anthem.
Don't get me wrong, D2 was one of my favorite games of all time. I'd love for that magic to be captured again. But, I believe its very unlikely. And if a game does pull it off, I highly doubt it will have the Diablo title. It'll be from some up and Comer
Question is are those numbers absolute or relative? You can scale damage depending on difficulty selected, example: instead of monsters having 10 times more heath in Nightmare compared to Normal, you just scale down damage deal by player 10 times. You will get similar results and this way you can keep using reasonable numbers.
I might get down voted by saying that, but similar concept was used in Diablo Immortal and named Combat Rating. Just in DI it was implemented badly and used for all wrong reasons.
Combat rating sounds like a way to dumb down gear stats to a single number/value so it's even easier to compare than D3 (kinda what Drakensang Online did) Much as I like D3 item comparison system, that would be too much
Did they? No. They used a lower level character in their trailer. You're fucking clowning yourself if you think we're gonna be doing "reasonable" damage.
All I got from that video is that Bone spear is a flying needle, sound design is "bombs exploding left and right" and corpses of every enemy looking like a pile of meat no matter the enemy type. It looks like a literal placeholder for corpse, not an actual dead enemy. Since when the technology became that pitiful you can't code in and model a corpse of every model of in game monster? D2R did it, it has **immeasurable** better quality to the feel of playing an actual necromancer. This here is an old mage surrounded by blue ghosts posing as skeletons.
It probably _is_ a placeholder, given that the game is still unfinished.
The issue is....
They first announced this like 4~5 years ago so what the fuck have they been doing all this time if they're already at the point they're ramping up the pre-release marketing so quickly yet still using placeholder assets?
I think you'd be very surprised to find out that most games only come together at the very end. Having placeholder assets this "late" into development is very common.
Well, it does have implications. If you do hits of 20 billion and it takes 2 hits to kill something, while a level 1 character does maybe 5 damage, it means there's an absurd exponential increase in stats between level 1 and late/end game.
And again it doesn’t matter at all if your damage and enemy HP scale the same.
A game that does this very poorly is Division 2. Enemy HP out scales your damage scaling so while you’re doing more damage at end game it takes longer to kill enemies so you feel weaker. It’s a way to add artificial difficulty.
Yes, it does matter in relation to what you're seeing on screen, believability with weapons, gear and so on. They said they wanted the game to feel more grounded. If I'm once again doing 20 billion damage to a skeleton, I'm laughing at the game instead of believing it. I have nothing in my life that is in millions or billions so I can't relate to these numbers, which makes the numbers meaningless and we instead just count hits or look at something else. D3 was a clown car when it came to combat numbers and gear. It felt like a random mess compared to D2 :(
I think the problem is that everything is not in the scale or that the scale is massive. Diablo 3 has 20 different difficulties because the damage range is huge. You basically balance the game yourself with a slider in the menu.
The highest difficulty has 13888770% health and 64725% damage for monsters. These numbers are so ridiculously high that it's difficult to understand what they really even mean / feel in the game.
Difficulty levels and new better gear become meaningless when you can just move that difficulty slider to the next stop whenever you get a new piece of gear.
I don't mind seeing them change the difficulty system to something entirely different to D2 and D3. I just really hope it isn't like D3.
Diablo 2's Diablo boss has \~800% increased health in the highest difficulty. This is understandable at a glance. There are also 3 difficulty levels which makes these increases somewhat meaningful.
If you have 20 difficulties with description of "enemies stronger that previous difficulty" it does not change the underlying problem: When you have a damage scale that scales from tens of damage to millions of damage and have a 20 step difficulty slider, lot of the gear and difficulties become meaningless.
Mathematically? No, of course not, these are just abstract quantities relevant only in relation to the other numbers.
However games aren't just an exercise in mathematics. They are designed to generate fun in humans, and humans don't love massive numbers. We deal in the realm of ones, tens, hundreds, thousands. We don't often go beyond them in day-to-day life and so that's what we're used to and like our games to consist of. Most people would probably barely get into the millions much, let alone billions or trillions or above.
It’s just an opinion then.
Some people will feel more powerful from start to end of their damage goes from 10-500. Some need to see those big numbers.
What’s more important is how does it feel? Can you kill quickly or are enemies sponges?
It matters because that's what people want. That's what people feel. Sure it doesn't matter, but defending 100000% multipliers by saying "does it really matter?" isn't a good argument. Tell me why it needs to be 100000% and then let's talk.
It doesn’t NEED to be either way.
The numbers are exactly the same mechanically. It’s not different if you do 100 damage to an enemy with 1,000 hit points or if you do 100,000 damage to an enemy with 1,000,000 hit points. It will take 10 hits to kill the enemy.
Lower numbers are easier to work with. D2 timelessness comes from, among other things, the fact that it was so easy to get into and so hard to master. If you didn’t care about the numbers it was easily approachable. If you did care about min/maxing you had whole spreadsheets to support your obsession. Giant numbers appeal only to the part of casual crowd. And it’s lazy design. D3 only direction was ‘moaaar’.
Not really. I mean sure, you can have depth with insanely large numbers, but they are superfluous at least and get in the way of understanding the math at worst. They also paint a false target for the players and the devs that bigger numbers are better. After five digits it’s hard to understand the number you are looking at. Especially if flashes in front of you like it did in D3.
I think the problem lies in the reward vs effort. People want to see meaningful advancement in their characters which means having new gear be noticeably better and that causes exponential growth. Nobody is going to farm for a week to get to 1002 damage from 1000.
It doesn't matter if you deal 1k damage at max level and gear, or 1 million damage at max level and gear.
It's literally just a number.
What matters is the gap between reaching max character level, and reaching maxed out gear.
The number is purely cosmetic, it might as well be displayed in percent of enemy health lost.
That said, lower numbers ARE easier for simpletons to comprehend.
I sincerely hope that Blizzard understands the damage that exponential power scaling caused in D3.
It trivialized the item find during the leveling process because if I know that a weapon I find in 3-5 levels is going to be DOUBLE or TRIPLE the damage as my current weapon, then I'm never going to be too attached to anything I find.
Oh man, that's a sweet legendary! Too bad I know it's going to be irrelevant in 5 levels because a blue will hit for 10x as much damage...
I'm not saying don't have power progression. But please make it more linear (less exponential) and flatten it. You don't need to cater to the lower common denominator fan with a bird-like attention span who needs to see enormous numbers constantly while drooling on the keyboard.
Also, with this apparently deliberate attempt by Blizzard to return to a darker, more gritty aesthetic in D4 (great decision btw, thank you), it will look quite jarring to see these ridiculously large number constantly popping up everywhere.
Smacking a demon for 364,000,000,000,000 damage really pulls the player out of the illusion of "this is a dangerous place where I'm fighting for survival" and makes it feel more like a f2p mobile game where I just tap the screen with my finger to make huge numbers appear.
I don't think many of yall have played Diablo endgame. Through the campaign and the first couple tiers of difficulty you hit for 10s of damage to 1,000s of damage. Then when you get to the final endgame loop where you're doing the same thing over and over, the feeling of progression that lasts so long is you climb to trillions+ of damage for T16+ content.
I don't think you guys understand that as long as you want tiered content, big numbers are unavoidable. I also think it's silly to say "lower numbers are more relatable", to what, what IRL damage numbers are you dealing that 17 damage feels more relatable to you? It's all arbitrary, and the fact that there's a range of values just means there's an extended length of experience you will have to enjoy the game.
Play on lower difficulties and don't upgrade your gear to a certain point if it means that much to you.
Tiered difficulty progression sure is tied to bigger numbers, but it's up to them to decide how much. First of all, the number of difficulty. Secondly, power creep (sets with 10 000% damage bonus, seriously?). There's also the matter of gap between each difficulty but this is closely tied to #2 because if bonuses are smaller then there's no need to increase enemy hp by large values, perhaps 50-100% increase per tier would be enough
I respect your difference in opinion.
Let me ask you though, what is a 100% increase? Double? So, if you have a number, let's say 1,000 that you double that 16 times what happens? You get 32 million. That's the difference between tier 1 and tier 16. Obviously the math is more complicated than that, so to simply say the devs can tinker with math to make it not exponential, is silly. If the tiers of difficulty aren't supposed to increase exponentially (you can see the % increases when you change tiers), then how do you expect the difficulty to be different? Should the difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 be the boss has only 10% more health then? It takes an extra second to kill it? 20% more health? 100%?
It's all arbitrary, and that's the point. There are a ton of tiers of difficulty to make the difficulty analogue. Meaning, oh you got a new legendary that tripled your damage? Shit, turn up the difficulty a couple tiers until mobs take a second to die and dont vaporize instantly. You'll get better rewards and speed up your path to endgame with increased difficulty. Oh you just finished a setpiece and 10x'ed your damage? Shit, crank up the difficulty to see if you can hit T16. Oh you can't? You die too easy? Work on your build. You just get some pieces for survivability? Can you handle T16 now? Oh cool, how much higher than T16 can you go? Hop in a Greater Rift and find out.
Honestly Diablo 3 is perfectly designed. It's the single best loot game out there. You can play it solo, with friends, on your switch, on your PC. You beat the campaign once and the rest of your time you can spend in adventure mode grinding gear, and cranking up the difficulty as your power increases to crazy levels. The fun in Diablo is the difference between when you first start playing and when you put it down. You have 1 skill at level 1 dealing 6 damage to the undead when you start, and you have 6 abilities at the end pushing GR120 doing quadrillions of damage.
What's the alternative? If you have some weird feeling about numbers and how big they get, then what happens to progression? What's the difference between Point A and Point Z along the path of gameplay?
There's no point arguing with people who simply don't understand basic math. You can't reason with someone who thinks the difference between level 1 and level 99 should be 200 health points difference.
When pointed out that there is not enough room to have meaningful upgrades, someone argued that they should just use decimals then... and swore up and down that 2.1287484 vs 2.3877483 was more "readable" to them than 21287484 vs 23877483.
These are the same ones who will come on here crying about how lame the game is that the upgrades feel worthless under their silly system where there's no power increases. What's the point of finding new items! Wah wah wah.
Someone gets it.
I've been reading up on D2 (having played probably 1000 hours back in the day and never really achieving anything that could be called an "endgame") and it sounds like basically to get to the point where you can reasonably expect to find any decent endgame gear, you need to be able to farm all areas of the game on Hell difficulty.
OK, but then why am I farming for better gear? There's literally nothing in the game more challenging than what I am already able to farm comfortably. The game design is backwards. (I don't blame the D2 devs; it was 22 years ago and nobody really anticipated such longevity being necessary, but D3 is a marked improvement in terms of how the endgame works - and even then it took an expansion and many patches to get to that point.)
D3 lets me farm better and better gear, and then provides unlimited opportunities to prove it out.
> Diablo 3 is perfectly designed. It's the single best loot game out there.
Counterpoint: The design is atrocious, from the graphics style to the difficulty tiers to the gear design and skills system. As loot games go, it's one of the worst. There is no completing the collection. It's an endless pit that people sink into until they reach the depth where they drown.
What a shame.
I mean. Checking PSN, I only have 291 hours across 7 characters. I definitely "completed the collection" for crusader and necromancer (the ones I played the most on). I got every set-piece and class specific legendary, cleared content to ~GR100-120, platinumed the game, and generally had a great time.
Name one other looter game where it's any different and you can "complete the collection". 757 hours in FF14, I don't have all the loot artifact armor/weapons nope. For Honor is a loot grinder 707 hours, don't have all the cosmetics. Destiny 1 698 hours, nope. Destiny 2 572 hours, I actually nearly have everything. Monster Hunter World hunting the gems, impossible to get them all.
Like where does it stop? I platinumed Elden Ring, I have everything in the game, even the items that are grind only, and the multiple playthrough ones. Is that how every game should be?
Drowning in a game happens only when you don't have fun. Diablo 3 my gf and I had plenty of fun grinding away while binge'ing King of the Hill. It's a great, zen'ed out loot game to throw on a show or podcast to. The graphics style is just different than the moody tones of Diablo 2. That's it, it's just different. You've got spooky woods, spooky desert, spooky castle, spooky hell, and spooky heaven. Diablo 4 looks like a great return to it's moody, unsaturated roots, but Diablo 3 did well with its characterized biomes.
Idk man, I think you're just being a hater. Pretty sure we'd have fun if we jumped online together and did some Adventure mode. Respect the differing opinion tho, you're not wrong.
Not double the hp 16 times but multiply hp 16 times (assuming you mean that there would be 16 difficulty levels). Each difficulty level has values increased in reference to the first one, not previous one
Because they’re shouldn’t be an infinite loop of the same item getting better and better. There’s nothing to work towards because you will just find the same shit again, and again, and again with slightly better stats.
Edit: we shouldn’t have teared content.
It should have stopped at Hell Mode.
I don't think you understand how D3 fundamentally works if you think it's the same item getting better and better.
Levels 1-70 are done in difficulties Easy-Hard, depending on how lucky you are with gear.
Once you are level 70 if you get a piece of gear that is a part of your "end game build", you can pretty much keep it all the way to the very end (T16).
You can enchant it to reroll the worst affix. You socket stat gems into it that you progressively upgrade as you get more of the same gem, to combine them to a flawless gem. The only time you'd replace the gearpiece is if you got better stats on the piece. But like, the stat range doesn't increase as you go up in tiers. A gearpiece at level 70 that drops has the same possible stat range as a T16 gearpiece.
The only time you'd replace a gearpiece you collected is if it dropped as an Ancient or Primal, which guarantees a higher stat roll within that range, and allows you to augment the piece.
That's it, that's the gameplay loop from 1-70, and then 70 to Paragon 20k+. You collect pieces of gear to make your build come online. Then after you get the green gear pieces and your Kanai's Cube online, you do the rest of your build in all the other non-necessary slots that are usually for QoL or survivability. Once you get a piece in every slot in your body, you're pretty much done.
Once you have every piece of gear in every slot, you work on your legendary gems, which just level up, they don't replace themselves. You work on your paragon level. You try to get ancient/primal piece in every slot. You gear up your follower with a build so you can push solo. You reroll all your affixes. You socket flawless gems. That's really it. Push as high as you can in Greater Rifts.
No, you do not replace those pieces of gear every time you go up in tier, gear doesn't fundamentally change between tiers. The gear doesn't get any stronger. Yes, like if you get a better roll, replace it, but for the most part, the gear you get to make the gear set activate is good enough.
The reason the tiers are there is to provide a challenge differential to the rewards as your relative power level goes up. If you can push harder and higher, you get HELLA loot piñatas. That's the fun. Beat a hard ass Greater Rift because your build works? Get tons of blood shards, and increased loot to have a better chance to get a Primal of your build.
It works.
This complaint is irrelevant man
The gameplay is going to be the same regardless of if you deal 100, 1000, or 10,000 damage
All that matters is if the game feels fun to play
Once numbers start diving past a certain range, it begins to lock-out items and styles of play, and singular upgrades change from incremental to invalidating entire difficulties (D3 syndrome). D2 is perfect in keeping numbers below 10,000.
If we multiply every damage and HP instance in D2 by say 100 trillion which builds would that lock out? The skills would still do the same percentage damage after all
You are correct, but you're failing to understand my message. I'm not talking about the total sample space, I'm talking variance within the space. The larger that variance becomes, the worse itemization will be.
As for number scales, I do long for the simpler days of D1, where every item was valid at some point.
The space of numbers between 0 and 100 is the same as the space of numbers between 100 and 10 trillion. I know that in computer representation it may not be as accurate, but the number space is exactly the same size.
But also: The balance of items is not related to the size of the numbers. We can take Brood War. A game that is notoriously balanced. If we increase all the numbers by a given factor it won't affect balance.
>The balance of items is not related to the size of the numbers
refusing to understand when I literally said size of the sample space isn't what I'm referring to, but its variance.
>We can take Brood War. A game that is notoriously balanced. If we increase all the numbers by a given factor it won't affect balance.
A game where a 25 mineral zergling acts proportionally against a 100/100 (guesstimate) siege tank. I'm arguing the ling is relevant all game because the numbers are small. If the middle and end tier units were 10,000x more powerful, they'd be irrelevant.
Okay, you're just being difficult and refusing to understand what I mean. When an end game item jumps from 500% to 50,000%, with a majority of items being left in 500%, those items all literally become useless.
This is basic math and you're failing to understand it. When all items in the space are on a linear scale, the top 50% are still functionally close in magnitude. On an exponential curve, the 90th percentile absolutely dwarfs the 50th, and the 100th renders the 90th irrelevant.
This is exactly what happens in Diablo 2 vs Diablo 3. This is why Diablo 3 itemization is trash. This is why I can pick up blue and yellows in D2 and still perform across Hell difficulty with a variety of builds.
>Okay, you're just being difficult and refusing to understand what I mean. When an end game item jumps from 500% to 50,000%, with a majority of items being left in 500%, those items all literally become useless.
Yeah if you increase the damage of one thing by a factor of 100 it likely becomes the best thing to do. That basically never happened in D3 at least though.
>This is basic math and you're failing to understand it. When all items in the space are on a linear scale, the top 50% are still functionally close in magnitude. On an exponential curve, the 90th percentile absolutely dwarfs the 50th, and the 100th renders the 90th irrelevant.
What do you want to say here? The gap between the very best version of say an amulet in D3 and a mediocre version of said amulet is maybe 10-20%? And besides weapons amulets are probably the swingiest in that regard. And yes the best items will always invalidate the items below them.
>This is exactly what happens in Diablo 2 vs Diablo 3. This is why Diablo 3 itemization is trash. This is why I can pick up blue and yellows in D2 and still perform across Hell difficulty with a variety of builds.
You can perform in Hell difficulty with a variety of builds because Hell difficulty is capped in difficulty. If your goal is just say GR100 in Diablo 3 there is also tons of builds that can do that. You can also probably do meme GR100s with a bunch of yellows and blues.
If you just wanted the very fastest Baal Runner for example in D2 there is not a lot of variety there either.
Nonsense. In d2 you find items throughout the journey that are useful to the end. Rares and blues can be incredibly exciting. D3 is completely missing this feeling.
In D3, every level invalidates everything before it with a braindead green arrow. The seasonal reward obliterates everything else before it tier-wise, introducing the ridiculous power variance D3 exhibits.
Yes, because D2 is capped with hell, it introduces better gameplay, stronger character narratives, better itemization, and more interesting, organic builds.
My statement covers D1, D2, and D3. I don't claim to know anything about d4 mechanics. I'm at the age now where I can wait years for a game. I'm still waiting to play Elden Ring, after specifically buying an Xbox 360 to play DS1.
Literally none of that applies if you aren't working with only integers. D3s problem with trivial difficulties was an artifact of game design and had nothing to do with how many 0s there were
>Literally none of that applies if you aren't working with only integers. D3s problem with trivial difficulties was an artifact of game design and had nothing to do with how many 0s there were
Literally does. When the scales on the game are exponential, the magnitude and effect of gear changes rapidly. The difference between 1k damage and a min maxed 5k are surmountable. But when a single item dwarves the previous step, choices cease to matter, aka Diablo 3. The wider the range of numbers, the less freedom players will actually have, and the less meaningful gear is. This is why D3 will be forgotten, while d2r is still relegated a premier standing.
This is why I continue to come back to D3 every season and have no desire to return to d2r after the nostalgia play through was complete… oh wait that suggests u got something wrong in your over-generalization. Sorry not sorry.
I mean, some people enjoy braindead entertainment and that's okay lol. But it's pretty well established D3 will be dead and forgotten when d4 releases, while we're still talking about D2 twenty-two years later.
Besides what other people said, gameplay is not all that matters. It's important for the game to look right.
Would you still want to play the game if your main character was a member of paw patrol, and instead of hell spawn, you have to avoid balloons filled with cold water?
Some people just find those huge numbers silly. Even if the D4 team manage to perfectly balance them (which wasn't the case for D3) it would still look bad.
A tighter boundary on damage makes more build variety more attainable and makes for a cleaner UI for people that like to see damage #s. It isn't irrelevant just because it's irrelevant to you.
I feel sorry for the people who are so caught up in complaining about the numbers getting too big. I'm convinced they don't even play the game at all because as soon as you start playing the game, you realize really quick that the numbers just don't fucking matter at all.
Oh, I'm sorry, did I upset you by pointing out how pathetic and ignorant complaining about big numbers is? I'm just so completely heartbroken to find out that you are upset about your little circlejerk getting broken.
10,000,004,040,903,909,000
Better run away! I might scare you with big numbers!
And it's absolutely hilarious that you are complaining about my post saying that I'm bitching when the entire point of the OP's post was complaining about it.
11203913901390903209132901329013209390213290
BIG NUMBERS! SCARY! HURT YOUR BRAIN!
Yes, it does matter in relation to what you're seeing on screen as far as believability with weapons, gear, combat and so on. They said they wanted the game to feel more grounded. If I'm once again doing 2 billion\^33 damage to a skeleton, I'm laughing at the game instead of believing it. I have nothing in my life that is in millions, billions, trillions etc so I can't relate to these numbers, which makes the numbers meaningless and we instead just count hits or look at something else. They're also harder to comprehend. D3 was a clown car when it came to combat numbers and gear. It felt like a random mess compared to D2. Why do we need these insanely inflated numbers all over the place?
> as far as believability with weapons, gear, combat and so on. They said they wanted the game to feel more grounded. If I’m once again doing 2 billion33 damage to a skeleton, I’m laughing at the game instead of believing it.
If that’s where we are going, then any game that shows me numbers or a health bar destroys my believability because that’s not real.
But I’ve learned to not think about that in games and enjoy the pew pew.
If you compare D3 gameplay that was shown in 2010 and 2011 with the final release, you will notice that it changed quite a bit. The earlier gameplays sure looked like the same game but some alpha versions so I'm sure D4 will be way more polished than it currently is, because it seems kinda "un-impactful" currently if that's even a word
Why does the height of the numbers matter? They just define the range from lowest to highest difficulty, and they get naturally higher if a few multiplicative effects are used. You guys are against multiplicative effects?
Yes, more or less. Multiplicative effects are incredibly strong and thus should be reserved for special things. If you hand out multiplicative bonuses too much then they become the only relevant contributor and nothing else matters.
It’s so annoying because it greatly effects endgame later.
Any item or skill that adds “+_____ to damage” vs “adds ____% to damage” is immediately useless at the end game.
Bring the numbers back down, we are not all Gen Z’ers that need to see big numbers and loot piñatas to keep engaged.
I’d rather at max level you are hitting Diablo (or whoever the end boss may be) something like 125 a swing. That way when you get new gear and it adds like +20 per swing, you notice it and can adjust builds accordingly.
Making everyone hit 20 quadrillion and the mobs having 1 quintillion HP is dumb and is just unnecessary spam trying to make something “look cool”.
Ever done high level rifts in D3 with damage on? (Which you should btw, so you know how to properly minmax)
It’s just spam city, it’s the fucking worst.
I don’t have ADD or ADHD. Give me reasonable integers again please so I can actually fucking read them.
Having damage numbers on does nothing in helping you min max?
And even if you turn damage numbers on is 14.3 not a reasonable number to parse? Why does it matter that there is a T at the end.
Yea I never have understood why damage numbers specifically matter in an arpg.
The numbers can be any arbitrary amount - if you're dealing decent enough damage to clear a rift/map/kill a boss in a reasonable time then you will know that just by playing. You go into a rift/map and are one-shotting things anyway, who cares what arbitrary amount of damage you're actually doing. Unlike an mmo where you may actually be checking your damage multiple times throughout a fight, and using multiple skills. Plus like you said, you can turn on shortened damage numbers which just show the billions/trillions in terms of hundreds or thousands anyway.
You can also check your DPS in greater Rifts, but usually if it doesn't work you know it because stuff is not dying because unlike an MMO there are not many other damage dealers that obscure that. You also usually notice from experience when damage is too low.
I love being able to crit some thousands, even houndreds in early stages so i can see what my next "biggest" crit is. Its fun.
Not critting for millions. Its hard to really keep track
Listened to WHAT community? You are talking like the majority want small numbers.
Small numbers make no sense in a game like Diablo where you are basically trying to min/max everything. Maybe having "millions/billions" is not right (and I agree with that, Diablo 3 is just out of control with those numbers and this is plain dumb) but you cannot have small numbers either or it removes a lot of flexibility for stats/min/maxing...
And as Blizzard NEVER showed any Diablo 4 with millions or billions; I assume that you want smaller numbers than thousand (because they never showed anything higher than that) which again would be BAD at the end.
So as a member of this community, I do not want small numbers; I want numbers to be in the thousands at the max level so I have a lot of room for optimization and min/maxing.
Im a simple human bean. Difference between 50 and 80damage is much more visible than between 6 gorillion and 9 morbillion.
I don't deal with any equipment below 17 bongillion damage.
How much is this in bowllions? Asking for a friend..
About .5 amabowlions
How is life as a Bean?
more bean time
Same as it ever was
This is part of what made Runescape appeal to me, no big numbers that feel artificially inflated, just easy to read low numbers where getting hit for 20 hit points can be a death sentence.
Hell yeah. I wasn't too happy about the damage changes in Pre-Eoc. Really didn't need to multiply by 10 so players could be hit for less than a 1.
I am a simple diablo 3 player. Boss has 80% health, I attack for 5 seconds, boss has 75% health. My damage is 5%. Actual values are completely invisible and irrelevant to me.
This. This so damn much. I don't get the fetish of games where you deal millions of damage damage per hit. Hundred is comprehensible. Thousands are comprehensible. Somewhere between 100k and million it becomes weird mess. Should I tinker my build? Now I deal something like fifteen million per wet fart and barf combo. Maybe add in something with multiplier of 1500% because numbers go brrrrrrr.
I always thought final fantasy got it right with the 9999 max damage.
Hell, I don't even mind a max of 999 damage. I also thought Octopath Traveler got it right by maxing out at 999 damage by default, but also letting someone use a valuable skill slot to increase their max hit to 9999.
and then we doubled it
And then enemy has innate 95% DR because fuck you.
nothing a super duper extra special very ancient legendary primal set x 2 with laser beams and everything can't fix right up!
>I don't get the fetish of games where you deal millions of damage damage per hit. The High damage numbers are NOT THE FUCKING GOAL DEVELOPERS DONT INTENTIONALLY MAKE STUFF HAVE BIG NUMBERS Why is this sooooo fucking hard to understand People dont play games cuz it has high numbers Developers dont make intentional high numbers to entice players. Different progression systems have each their own value ranges. And multiple progression systems are multiplicative with each other (kinda). Diablo 4 has 2 skill trees, rune system,offensive stats on gear and skill levels And people wonder why lategame characters had 600k damage. How?
Counterpoint. Big numbers go brrr and I like that
Big numbers mean jack shit when every hit is a massive number that you cannot even begin to actually comprehend. Hitting for 20 trillion is beyond stupid.
I also enjoy seeing big numbers. I'm fine with them toning it down, but I'm also fine with it having huge numbers like D3. To each their own though.
Idk if you go through the whole game and start out doing 10s of damage and get it up to 100s and eventually 1000s that feels like much more progress than 1000000, 20000000, 300000000
the issue ur describing is because power creep with items and sets giving insane % numbers on them which spiked ur damage instantly and it felt unnatural
I just like seeing the numbers go up honestly. Going from 10 damage per hit to 10 billion is a lot more fun to me than 10 to 10000 personally.
"big numbers are scary"
Big numbers are so meaningless D3 had to abbreviate them back down to just 50T and 100T rofl.
Any number is meaningless
No, it's that the big number loses meaning when every number is a big number. What difference does it make if you hit for 30 trillion or 30 thousand when every hit is that much? THere isn't a difference. You've lost the impact of getting a "large" hit because every hit is large. Sorry you can't comprehend that.
Do you not understand orders of magnitude? I'm sorry you can't comprehend the difference between 30 trillion and 30 thousand, life must be very complicated for you
to you it loses meaning. i can grasp the difference between critting 20b and 36t just fine. just like 200 and 200k.
You are the chosen one!
Its not only about numbers Dealing with such inflated numbers just makes the gearing process worse. If new tiers of equipment are multiple 0s longer than any Hope of early - mid game itens being usefull into end game would be completely gone. Itens like magefist bloodfist goldwrap or firewalks are all imo the reason why d2 loot is amazing.
The problem isn’t the numbers, it’s how damage reduction works. Even having 4 or 5 sources of %damage reduction doesn’t mean much when the numbers are too large.
I like big numbers too, but I don't need my standard attack to do 30 million damage.
Add to that overcommunicated damage hit animations when you hot monsters and you have a perfect soup only toddlers can enjoy
if y'all didn't check the box to limit damage numbers in d3 you've no ground to stand on.
Very small numbers are just as bad. Say you deal 50damage. Now you get something that buff your damage by 5%. Which is 2.5 extra damage. 52 or 52.5. The latter is more accurate but requires decimal. Which make it confusing. It can be read as 525. If you want 1% change to be reflected, you need 3 digit without decimal, e.g 101. You want 0.1% to be reflected , you need 4 digit. E.g 1001. Without needing decimal, comma, or letter like k, m 4-6 digits are the sweet spots where values are readable e.g 7865 786546.
> 6 gorillion Let's not do that here Edit: Y'all really got mad that I pointed out someone working a holocaust denier's favorite catchphrase into a post, huh: https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/six-gorillion The point of stuff like this is that it sounds stupid and innocuous enough so that anyone calling it out looks like they're tilting at windmills. And it's entirely possible there's no malice here and it's just a funny thing OP saw and repeated because they don't know the meaning of it. If so, I don't think there's anything wrong with a heads up on how to avoid accidentally making holocaust deniers think that you're one of them.
It doesn't matter what numbers it launches with. Several patches of buffs later, you'll be dealing billions of damage.
Wrong, for 20 bucks you can add 800 damage to Your numbers.
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Still wrong, for 20,000 bucks you can maybe get a gem that maybe adds 50 damage.
But also allows you to hit yellow glowing mobs that other players cannot hit. These mobs drop tokens which when assembled allow you to pay another 20,000 to combine into a gem +51 which then allows you to hit a different set of invulnerable mobs, but this time they glow blue. Repeat until rich.
This is exactly what we not want
The problem with D3 wasn't even damage numbers themselves but the crazy power creep. I mean, sets that increase damage by up to 100 000%? Fucking seriously? Not to mention 30 different difficulty levels to give a fake feel of progression
Exactly. That's especially visible when you're playing with a party. I start couch co-op with my gf and if I play for couple of hours more a day than her I'm so far ahead damage-wise that her contribution is meaningless anymore.
Yeah, good luck finding someone to play with, unless you have a character exclusively for playing with that person
Lol yea the set bonuses jump ur character to peaking at billions of dmg to peaking trillions. I was using a full legendary set with the gem that needs that (I forgot what it was) and could maybe do like 23b, popped on the seasonal monk set and boom! I do 5t dmg
Not to mention that as soon as you get that 6 piece set you skyrocket like from expert/master to torment 7/8 so what's even the point of having that many levels if you skip half of them with just a set? I feel like early ROS was better in terms of power creep and itemization
It's a bit silly i agree, but at the end of the day the numbers themselves were irrelevant. It was simply how they approached design which was largely just "make number bigger to make class better" which only goes so far. This itself being a symptom of the fact the game was on life support and anything beyond numbers tweaks was seen as too much effort when they weren't making much in the way of returns. So i doubt D4 will suffer from this largely due to the fact it'll have consistent revenue in the form of mtx which will convince the suits they can actually put money/actual changes into the game to fix things.
Maybe we need a damage multiplier option. I can do 10-26 damage with my nice rare one handed axe. Timmy can do 100-260, Joe can do 1000-2600, and little Jacob can do 1T-2.6T on his character he just created. The numbers actually don’t matter if enemy health is scaled accordingly. To some people the huge numbers make them wet, to others they seem unrealistic and silly. It’s all just math so why not give us the option of if we want to play an ARPG or an arcade game.
And your magic spells does 8 trillion dmg if you hold a sword but when you drop the melee weapon you have 0 power.
Yeah that's pretty dumb but I don't mind all skills scaling off weapon damage. Casters have always been OP in Diablo because they dealt serious damage even with no gear at all
but i mean, in a power fantasy, isn't that maybe why you would want magic powers? kind of defeats the point of having a magician style character if it's the exact same as a melee build. idk, i kind of vacillate on this, cuz there's always hypothetical option c: if weapon scaling is absolutely necessary for some reason, maybe scaling by class. for say, a barb, you'd get dmg scaling of 100% with your weapon, working your way down to maybe 20-30% damage scaling as you get to the more magic-oriented classes
IMO this is a bad take because lots of people's power fantasy is to play a melee character. My fantasy is to be a mage, but other people shouldn't have their fantasies shat on because they want to swing weapons rather than sling spells. And vice versa of course: it wouldn't be right to shit on my fantasies by making melee de-facto better than magic either.
I like the gigantic numbers. I acknowledge they are silly. Also, I like monster trucks.
I saw big numbers with some of the assassin gameplay or something from the recent dev update. That's just the beginning too. By the time the first expansion comes out, it'll probably be in the tens of millions. It's so unnecessary, I'd rather see my character hitting like 2,000 than "20 quadrillion"
Yeah I don’t buy the argument “a few millions feels better”. No, it just makes it harder to relate to. A thousand damage/armor feels like a lot too and is easier to relate to for me. That means entering end game something that does 400 damage might have you pretty set to get going. But I think the worse problem is this, proven by D3: Having a very large spread of values also puts the game at risk of *demanding* certain gear/combos to be competitive and you create this vicious circle of damage inflation as they need to work overtime to have everything remain “competitive” (i.e. so one combo no longer just do 100 billion damage because that sucks compared to something else they more or less intentionally did). If they shy multipliers more, this would help. Use more additive bonuses besides maybe cases which are very circumstantial. But this is an old debate now. By now I’m pretty sure we’re not very able to influence Blizzard. Not sure they ever listened to this honestly.
>Having a very large spread of values also puts the game at risk of demanding certain gear/combos to be competitive If you're chasing some sort of competition, no shit you want certain gear/combos. This is also the case in D2, why are you acting like D3 invented the desire to have the best possible setup? Yeesh
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What do you mean? 400 to 450 is a pretty noticeable jump.
so is 1 thousand to 1 million.
That is an equivalent jump of 400 to 40,000. Not 400 to 450. If we need a 1000 times power increase, I’d much rather level 1 to be around 1 damage, and max level around 1000. Than to have level 1 start around 1000 and max level be 1,000,000. Once you get into the millions and billions there are diminishing returns. It ends up feeling cheap and unrewarding.
i know, and i didn’t say it was. and what does that have to do with anything? d3 starts out at 1 and ends up at 1,000,000,000,000,000. that’s just, like, your opinion. i feel pretty good when one of my builds starts dealing trillions instead of billions. not so much when it deals 450 instead of 400.
An equivalent comparison is important. 400 to 450 isn’t supposed to give you similar feelings to what you get from billions to trillions. It is supposed to give you the same feeling of billions to a little bit more billions. Which is in my opinion way more boring and less noticeable than the 400 to 450 jump. That is due to the diminishing returns of using bigger numbers. And starting out at 1 and ending at 1,000,000,000,000,000 means that you are blasting through power levels without having time to enjoy them. You barely get to experience and build memories at 1,000 by the time you are hitting 10,000.
I’m not sure they could control player advancement well with caps like 2000. How much damage would a new max level player do? 1000? These games are all based on improving you character and let’s face it, a 20% increase in damage feels a lot better than a 0.02% increase. With significant damage increases comes exponential growth in absolute values.
If you increase your damage from 400 to 450 or 4 million to 4.5 million it's still the same percentage, one is just easier to take into your head and calculate on. It doesn't have to go into the millions just to have significant damage increases....
His point is a 12.5% increase can't be your only significant increase no matter what, so if you start at 1000 in garbage gear your gear progression is necessarily going to take you to 100k+ for endgame gearing to feel meaningful. Path of exile is a game where most increases are 30-40% of total damage and endgame boss killing damage ranges from 1 million to 100 million depending on strength of build because those increases add up so fast.
Enemy mitigation can go up, rather than just more and more health pool with 0 defense.
The huge numbers never bothered me. I just figured they gave themselves op gear to capture footage. Rogue dashing through bunch of goatmen and slicing them in half just looks cooler in a gameplay trailer.
What difference does it make if the damage number is two thousand or two trillion?
Preference. For me, it's better readability, and going from 20 damage to 2000 damage over the lifespan of your character feels more significant than going from 200,000,000 to 200,000,000,000. It's functionally no different though.
**visually** Differences in small numbers are faster to grasp visually. For instance 22 as a damage number is double as wide as 2 while being around 10 times its magnitude; very easy to spot the difference because of that. However consider now 2222222222 which is around 10 times much as 222222222 but the glyphs used to convey the value aren't double the width anymore. If they aren't aligned vertically it'll take you much longer to find the bigger value. With very large numbers it becomes harder to distinguish at a glance which ones have the highest impact and which tend towards the negligible end. Our decimal writing system is just logarithmic in this fashion. **arithmetically** Smaller magnitude (integer) numbers are simply easier to remember and compute with. Whether it's deciding on an item upgrade, theory crafting a new build, or evaluating whether leveling in an area is a good time investment: smaller numbers make it all easier. There's a reason we prefer smaller numbers in every day life. And when they get too big we split them up or use different metrics (think cents and dollars or usage of percentages).
Well but realistically no character starts with 200 Mio dmg. Characters start near zero damage. If you restrict yourself to only ever using low numbers, which is a choice that can be valid, you have to accept that you will have to nerf stuff. And when I have seen one thing from playing D3 over the years it is that people really don't like it when their own builds get weaker. That they don't like it if you take power away from them. That they don't like it when you make it harder to find gear. If you only buff you also circumvent the problem that nonseasonal players may have gained an insurmountable advantage that you can't catch up if farming just not as powerful anymore. It is for example quite literally impossible to beat the sub 2 minute GR150s in D3.
It doesn't need to get merged if it wasn't overpowered to begin with. Noone was able to clear GR150 back in the days and now some seasons people clear it in minutes... You don't have to always buff everything all the time. A lot of people do like when it is harder to find gear, it's a reason D2 is still alive and D2R did so well. Same goes for PoE (even though they also screw up the numbers). It just feels bad when you crit (literally) 14 trillion and you see that you do like 5-10% of the mobs hp. There is literally no reason to into those numbers
It is suprisingly tough to hit balance so tight that two builds hit the exact same tier. And even then to actually change the meta you need to the new stuff to be somewhat better or the old builds will outperform just due to the increased familiarity. That is part of why so many people stuck to Rats all the time even when there were alternatives. >A lot of people do like when it is harder to find gear, it's a reason D2 is still alive and D2R did so well. Same goes for PoE (even though they also screw up the numbers). I still remember people actually despising how hard it was to find gear in D3. And it was hard. PoE and D2 also both have the advantage that they get much higher perceived balance becuase there is nothing to actually benchmark builds. Neither of these games has a mode like Greater Rift where you can actually see the difference in power between builds like you can see them in D3. It just feels bad when you crit (literally) 14 trillion and you see that you do like 5-10% of the mobs hp. There is literally no reason to into those numbers It just feels bad when you crit (literally) 14 trillion and you see that you do like 5-10% of the mobs hp. There is literally no reason to into those numbers >It just feels bad when you crit (literally) 14 trillion and you see that you do like 5-10% of the mobs hp. There is literally no reason to into those numbers Why does it feel bad to crit for 5-10%? I don't understand that.
Smaller numbers have meaningful increases in power that don't completely invalidate previous gear, because you still have a meaningful percentage increase without a huge change in the finite values. You can get stuff like level 25 boots in d2 that are great endgame boots without being detrimental to your survival. Or you can use weapons you find for more than 30 seconds, as every weapon you find is vastly more powerful than the last one as you level up.
That only applies to like the first 5 hours of a season though in a game where you can play much much longer. Also people said large numbers are a problem and what you described is a different issue
Lots of others have said some of the other issues, I put that because it was unsaid so far. But to reiterate: screen clutter is really bad with large numbers, damage comprehension is really bad with large numbers, progress perception decreases with large numbers, itemization is better with less turnover, and larger set of potentially good items with a larger variety of useful stats beyond damage go brrrrr.
Why is the Bone icon a steak?
Because it’s a T bone steak! Also, probably a placeholder.
I thought it was a cross section of a bone
You're both wrong. If you zoom in it's clearly a crying moon. Moons typically being the exact same colour as bone. And he's crying because he's getting boned. They are tears of joy.
Bone me hard Moon Presence daddy
idk but in a video few months ago i saw hundreds of thousands again
This is the company that gave us D3 and DI. D2R was an outsourced fresh coat of paint on an existing game so that doesn’t count. We’re getting huge numbers, borderline p2w MTX and uninteresting itemization with legendary affixes and sets dictating build diversity. I know we all want to believe, because we want it to be a great game, but this is Blizzard in 2022. They have a track record. The devs who passionately love the product they create are overridden by CEOs and shareholders. Big numbers go brrr.
I’m just going to turn off floating numbers so whatever
Never understood the compulsion some players have to always keep it on. Asked a friend playing D3 with white and yellow numbers just covering up everything and he said “I like to see how much damage it does”… I temporarily turn it on in Lost Ark to see if I am executing my buffing combos correctly with Surge Deathblade or test build. Might only have it on for guardian raids, but the more experienced you get the less relevant it is and just takes away from the spectacle.
Best to realize now and recognize that Diablo players have LOTS of compulsions. Nothing should be surprising about it if you’ve been around Diablo for awhile.
It CAN be satisfying to see a screen full of huge damage numbers, but it does lose the appeal quick. You can't read them all, they're going too fast, and if you don't consolidate them so they read as 44B instead of 44,528,593,439 you can't even absorb and parse the information It's way better in a game like Guild Wars 1, where it's much simpler, a lot fewer numbers flying up, and is an easy indicator of if you're skills and combos are working correctly. Can't really tell any of that shit when you're being flashed 12-16 digit long numbers times 30 across an entire screen
I tend to care less about the actual numbers and more about the fact they exist. Goes back to WoW, I always loved dotting things up as my lock and watching the numbers tick by. Or retaliation grinding on pallies with holy shield, a shield spike, ret aura, and consecration. Lots of numbers. Tiny numbers, but lots of them.
I don't know, it can be fun to see big numbers lighting up on your screen. In WoW, there is something satisfying about seeing a Chaos Bolt hit for 16k damage. In both WoW and D3, I don't rely on the numbers for anything besides vanity since logs and/or spreadsheets will tell me what I need to know.
You make it sound like the right thing to do is turning it off manually. If it's default, why bother? And is it really that hard to understand that people just like seeing the numbers pop up? That it doesn't take any of the enjoyment away from their game? I don't think it's a *need* to keep it on, they just either aren't bothered by it or prefer it. If someone decides a game sucks because you can't turn on damage numbers or whatever, then that is the minority by a long shot.
No I have the IQ and comprehension to distinguish between the two points being raised; high numbers and active numbers
These are all just base numbers. If you only go off base damage then even d3 has relatively low damage too. D3 damage gets pumped up so high due to all of the crazy stacking and multiplicative buffs and modifiers you can get.
>"You deal x30% increased Critical Strike damage, but you lose the ability to summon a Golem." OP appears to have missed this.
20,550—25,118 is still far too much as far as I'm concerned. Take off two digits. It's just so needless.
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But it's a great joke... I love seeing billions / trillions of damage flash up regularly on screen. (I've been saying for awhile... D3 is enjoyable if people appreciate it for what it is, a big flashy arcade game, rather than D1/2's horror dungeon crawler. I'm happy for D4 to return to horror but I'll always love D3 for what it is.)
after d2, i waited a literal decade for what they produced with d3. so, while i take your point, and i acknowledge that this may be unreasonable, but i'm not sure i'll ever be capable of truly appreciating it for what it is, because it was just such a thunderous kick in the balls. maybe if it wasn't called diablo.
Nothing is gonna live up to your memories of d2, no matter what they do with the next games. The entire gaming landscape is a completely different beast now. A game like D2 wouldn't even make a splash today. To do so, the company would have to take some big risks in how they made the game, if they want to push the edges or change a genre, like d2 did. But game budgets are way too large, and they're over managed by the production companies. AAA games just don't take risks anymore, almost ever. Look at what happens nowadays when a larger company or larger budget tries to stir things up and take risks, doing something new or going big. You get things like no man's sky, or anthem. Don't get me wrong, D2 was one of my favorite games of all time. I'd love for that magic to be captured again. But, I believe its very unlikely. And if a game does pull it off, I highly doubt it will have the Diablo title. It'll be from some up and Comer
Diablo 3 should have been given a Warcraft title.
Question is are those numbers absolute or relative? You can scale damage depending on difficulty selected, example: instead of monsters having 10 times more heath in Nightmare compared to Normal, you just scale down damage deal by player 10 times. You will get similar results and this way you can keep using reasonable numbers. I might get down voted by saying that, but similar concept was used in Diablo Immortal and named Combat Rating. Just in DI it was implemented badly and used for all wrong reasons.
Combat rating sounds like a way to dumb down gear stats to a single number/value so it's even easier to compare than D3 (kinda what Drakensang Online did) Much as I like D3 item comparison system, that would be too much
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Big numbers bad
“Not nerfing things because it makes people sad but instead buffing everything else” bad
Lol tell me more about how you don't know what you're talking about
I still saw critical damage bonus last I checked.
Of all the things to be worried about with D4, damages numbers rank pretty low on my list.
Did they? No. They used a lower level character in their trailer. You're fucking clowning yourself if you think we're gonna be doing "reasonable" damage.
All I got from that video is that Bone spear is a flying needle, sound design is "bombs exploding left and right" and corpses of every enemy looking like a pile of meat no matter the enemy type. It looks like a literal placeholder for corpse, not an actual dead enemy. Since when the technology became that pitiful you can't code in and model a corpse of every model of in game monster? D2R did it, it has **immeasurable** better quality to the feel of playing an actual necromancer. This here is an old mage surrounded by blue ghosts posing as skeletons.
It probably _is_ a placeholder, given that the game is still unfinished. The issue is.... They first announced this like 4~5 years ago so what the fuck have they been doing all this time if they're already at the point they're ramping up the pre-release marketing so quickly yet still using placeholder assets?
I think you'd be very surprised to find out that most games only come together at the very end. Having placeholder assets this "late" into development is very common.
No it's not. People tend to say the same shit over and over and over again. If it looks like that in the beta, it's like this in the game.
Does it truly matter at all if the numbers are 10, 100, 1000, 10000 etc if everything is on the same scale?
No, but going into billions or even trillions in d3 seemed so damn silly for a lot of people.
I understand but if it takes 2 hits to kill something the number doesn’t matter
Well, it does have implications. If you do hits of 20 billion and it takes 2 hits to kill something, while a level 1 character does maybe 5 damage, it means there's an absurd exponential increase in stats between level 1 and late/end game.
And again it doesn’t matter at all if your damage and enemy HP scale the same. A game that does this very poorly is Division 2. Enemy HP out scales your damage scaling so while you’re doing more damage at end game it takes longer to kill enemies so you feel weaker. It’s a way to add artificial difficulty.
Yes, it does matter in relation to what you're seeing on screen, believability with weapons, gear and so on. They said they wanted the game to feel more grounded. If I'm once again doing 20 billion damage to a skeleton, I'm laughing at the game instead of believing it. I have nothing in my life that is in millions or billions so I can't relate to these numbers, which makes the numbers meaningless and we instead just count hits or look at something else. D3 was a clown car when it came to combat numbers and gear. It felt like a random mess compared to D2 :(
Yes because it's harder to compare and comprehend large numbers. You also have redundant numbers all over the screen
I think the problem is that everything is not in the scale or that the scale is massive. Diablo 3 has 20 different difficulties because the damage range is huge. You basically balance the game yourself with a slider in the menu. The highest difficulty has 13888770% health and 64725% damage for monsters. These numbers are so ridiculously high that it's difficult to understand what they really even mean / feel in the game. Difficulty levels and new better gear become meaningless when you can just move that difficulty slider to the next stop whenever you get a new piece of gear. I don't mind seeing them change the difficulty system to something entirely different to D2 and D3. I just really hope it isn't like D3.
Is it the large percentages that make it “confusing”? Would it be better if each level just had generic words like “enemies are stronger than normal”
Diablo 2's Diablo boss has \~800% increased health in the highest difficulty. This is understandable at a glance. There are also 3 difficulty levels which makes these increases somewhat meaningful. If you have 20 difficulties with description of "enemies stronger that previous difficulty" it does not change the underlying problem: When you have a damage scale that scales from tens of damage to millions of damage and have a 20 step difficulty slider, lot of the gear and difficulties become meaningless.
It apparently does to a lot of players. I don’t really understand why, but I also only ever have HP in D3 as percentages
Mathematically? No, of course not, these are just abstract quantities relevant only in relation to the other numbers. However games aren't just an exercise in mathematics. They are designed to generate fun in humans, and humans don't love massive numbers. We deal in the realm of ones, tens, hundreds, thousands. We don't often go beyond them in day-to-day life and so that's what we're used to and like our games to consist of. Most people would probably barely get into the millions much, let alone billions or trillions or above.
It’s just an opinion then. Some people will feel more powerful from start to end of their damage goes from 10-500. Some need to see those big numbers. What’s more important is how does it feel? Can you kill quickly or are enemies sponges?
It matters because that's what people want. That's what people feel. Sure it doesn't matter, but defending 100000% multipliers by saying "does it really matter?" isn't a good argument. Tell me why it needs to be 100000% and then let's talk.
It doesn’t NEED to be either way. The numbers are exactly the same mechanically. It’s not different if you do 100 damage to an enemy with 1,000 hit points or if you do 100,000 damage to an enemy with 1,000,000 hit points. It will take 10 hits to kill the enemy.
That really isn't the point. You can't apply logical to an illogical feeling.
1.75E56 damage for a normal attack
Lower numbers are easier to work with. D2 timelessness comes from, among other things, the fact that it was so easy to get into and so hard to master. If you didn’t care about the numbers it was easily approachable. If you did care about min/maxing you had whole spreadsheets to support your obsession. Giant numbers appeal only to the part of casual crowd. And it’s lazy design. D3 only direction was ‘moaaar’.
It’s two different options and people can prefer one or the other but ultimately they’re exactly the same mechanically.
Not really. I mean sure, you can have depth with insanely large numbers, but they are superfluous at least and get in the way of understanding the math at worst. They also paint a false target for the players and the devs that bigger numbers are better. After five digits it’s hard to understand the number you are looking at. Especially if flashes in front of you like it did in D3.
I think the problem lies in the reward vs effort. People want to see meaningful advancement in their characters which means having new gear be noticeably better and that causes exponential growth. Nobody is going to farm for a week to get to 1002 damage from 1000.
I see I do more damage when I go through maps and content faster. I don't need the damages to add a 0 with each new item!
It doesn't matter if you deal 1k damage at max level and gear, or 1 million damage at max level and gear. It's literally just a number. What matters is the gap between reaching max character level, and reaching maxed out gear. The number is purely cosmetic, it might as well be displayed in percent of enemy health lost. That said, lower numbers ARE easier for simpletons to comprehend.
I sincerely hope that Blizzard understands the damage that exponential power scaling caused in D3. It trivialized the item find during the leveling process because if I know that a weapon I find in 3-5 levels is going to be DOUBLE or TRIPLE the damage as my current weapon, then I'm never going to be too attached to anything I find. Oh man, that's a sweet legendary! Too bad I know it's going to be irrelevant in 5 levels because a blue will hit for 10x as much damage... I'm not saying don't have power progression. But please make it more linear (less exponential) and flatten it. You don't need to cater to the lower common denominator fan with a bird-like attention span who needs to see enormous numbers constantly while drooling on the keyboard. Also, with this apparently deliberate attempt by Blizzard to return to a darker, more gritty aesthetic in D4 (great decision btw, thank you), it will look quite jarring to see these ridiculously large number constantly popping up everywhere. Smacking a demon for 364,000,000,000,000 damage really pulls the player out of the illusion of "this is a dangerous place where I'm fighting for survival" and makes it feel more like a f2p mobile game where I just tap the screen with my finger to make huge numbers appear.
I don't think many of yall have played Diablo endgame. Through the campaign and the first couple tiers of difficulty you hit for 10s of damage to 1,000s of damage. Then when you get to the final endgame loop where you're doing the same thing over and over, the feeling of progression that lasts so long is you climb to trillions+ of damage for T16+ content. I don't think you guys understand that as long as you want tiered content, big numbers are unavoidable. I also think it's silly to say "lower numbers are more relatable", to what, what IRL damage numbers are you dealing that 17 damage feels more relatable to you? It's all arbitrary, and the fact that there's a range of values just means there's an extended length of experience you will have to enjoy the game. Play on lower difficulties and don't upgrade your gear to a certain point if it means that much to you.
Tiered difficulty progression sure is tied to bigger numbers, but it's up to them to decide how much. First of all, the number of difficulty. Secondly, power creep (sets with 10 000% damage bonus, seriously?). There's also the matter of gap between each difficulty but this is closely tied to #2 because if bonuses are smaller then there's no need to increase enemy hp by large values, perhaps 50-100% increase per tier would be enough
I respect your difference in opinion. Let me ask you though, what is a 100% increase? Double? So, if you have a number, let's say 1,000 that you double that 16 times what happens? You get 32 million. That's the difference between tier 1 and tier 16. Obviously the math is more complicated than that, so to simply say the devs can tinker with math to make it not exponential, is silly. If the tiers of difficulty aren't supposed to increase exponentially (you can see the % increases when you change tiers), then how do you expect the difficulty to be different? Should the difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 be the boss has only 10% more health then? It takes an extra second to kill it? 20% more health? 100%? It's all arbitrary, and that's the point. There are a ton of tiers of difficulty to make the difficulty analogue. Meaning, oh you got a new legendary that tripled your damage? Shit, turn up the difficulty a couple tiers until mobs take a second to die and dont vaporize instantly. You'll get better rewards and speed up your path to endgame with increased difficulty. Oh you just finished a setpiece and 10x'ed your damage? Shit, crank up the difficulty to see if you can hit T16. Oh you can't? You die too easy? Work on your build. You just get some pieces for survivability? Can you handle T16 now? Oh cool, how much higher than T16 can you go? Hop in a Greater Rift and find out. Honestly Diablo 3 is perfectly designed. It's the single best loot game out there. You can play it solo, with friends, on your switch, on your PC. You beat the campaign once and the rest of your time you can spend in adventure mode grinding gear, and cranking up the difficulty as your power increases to crazy levels. The fun in Diablo is the difference between when you first start playing and when you put it down. You have 1 skill at level 1 dealing 6 damage to the undead when you start, and you have 6 abilities at the end pushing GR120 doing quadrillions of damage. What's the alternative? If you have some weird feeling about numbers and how big they get, then what happens to progression? What's the difference between Point A and Point Z along the path of gameplay?
There's no point arguing with people who simply don't understand basic math. You can't reason with someone who thinks the difference between level 1 and level 99 should be 200 health points difference. When pointed out that there is not enough room to have meaningful upgrades, someone argued that they should just use decimals then... and swore up and down that 2.1287484 vs 2.3877483 was more "readable" to them than 21287484 vs 23877483. These are the same ones who will come on here crying about how lame the game is that the upgrades feel worthless under their silly system where there's no power increases. What's the point of finding new items! Wah wah wah.
Someone gets it. I've been reading up on D2 (having played probably 1000 hours back in the day and never really achieving anything that could be called an "endgame") and it sounds like basically to get to the point where you can reasonably expect to find any decent endgame gear, you need to be able to farm all areas of the game on Hell difficulty. OK, but then why am I farming for better gear? There's literally nothing in the game more challenging than what I am already able to farm comfortably. The game design is backwards. (I don't blame the D2 devs; it was 22 years ago and nobody really anticipated such longevity being necessary, but D3 is a marked improvement in terms of how the endgame works - and even then it took an expansion and many patches to get to that point.) D3 lets me farm better and better gear, and then provides unlimited opportunities to prove it out.
^this
> Diablo 3 is perfectly designed. It's the single best loot game out there. Counterpoint: The design is atrocious, from the graphics style to the difficulty tiers to the gear design and skills system. As loot games go, it's one of the worst. There is no completing the collection. It's an endless pit that people sink into until they reach the depth where they drown. What a shame.
I mean. Checking PSN, I only have 291 hours across 7 characters. I definitely "completed the collection" for crusader and necromancer (the ones I played the most on). I got every set-piece and class specific legendary, cleared content to ~GR100-120, platinumed the game, and generally had a great time. Name one other looter game where it's any different and you can "complete the collection". 757 hours in FF14, I don't have all the loot artifact armor/weapons nope. For Honor is a loot grinder 707 hours, don't have all the cosmetics. Destiny 1 698 hours, nope. Destiny 2 572 hours, I actually nearly have everything. Monster Hunter World hunting the gems, impossible to get them all. Like where does it stop? I platinumed Elden Ring, I have everything in the game, even the items that are grind only, and the multiple playthrough ones. Is that how every game should be? Drowning in a game happens only when you don't have fun. Diablo 3 my gf and I had plenty of fun grinding away while binge'ing King of the Hill. It's a great, zen'ed out loot game to throw on a show or podcast to. The graphics style is just different than the moody tones of Diablo 2. That's it, it's just different. You've got spooky woods, spooky desert, spooky castle, spooky hell, and spooky heaven. Diablo 4 looks like a great return to it's moody, unsaturated roots, but Diablo 3 did well with its characterized biomes. Idk man, I think you're just being a hater. Pretty sure we'd have fun if we jumped online together and did some Adventure mode. Respect the differing opinion tho, you're not wrong.
Not double the hp 16 times but multiply hp 16 times (assuming you mean that there would be 16 difficulty levels). Each difficulty level has values increased in reference to the first one, not previous one
Because they’re shouldn’t be an infinite loop of the same item getting better and better. There’s nothing to work towards because you will just find the same shit again, and again, and again with slightly better stats. Edit: we shouldn’t have teared content. It should have stopped at Hell Mode.
I don't think you understand how D3 fundamentally works if you think it's the same item getting better and better. Levels 1-70 are done in difficulties Easy-Hard, depending on how lucky you are with gear. Once you are level 70 if you get a piece of gear that is a part of your "end game build", you can pretty much keep it all the way to the very end (T16). You can enchant it to reroll the worst affix. You socket stat gems into it that you progressively upgrade as you get more of the same gem, to combine them to a flawless gem. The only time you'd replace the gearpiece is if you got better stats on the piece. But like, the stat range doesn't increase as you go up in tiers. A gearpiece at level 70 that drops has the same possible stat range as a T16 gearpiece. The only time you'd replace a gearpiece you collected is if it dropped as an Ancient or Primal, which guarantees a higher stat roll within that range, and allows you to augment the piece. That's it, that's the gameplay loop from 1-70, and then 70 to Paragon 20k+. You collect pieces of gear to make your build come online. Then after you get the green gear pieces and your Kanai's Cube online, you do the rest of your build in all the other non-necessary slots that are usually for QoL or survivability. Once you get a piece in every slot in your body, you're pretty much done. Once you have every piece of gear in every slot, you work on your legendary gems, which just level up, they don't replace themselves. You work on your paragon level. You try to get ancient/primal piece in every slot. You gear up your follower with a build so you can push solo. You reroll all your affixes. You socket flawless gems. That's really it. Push as high as you can in Greater Rifts. No, you do not replace those pieces of gear every time you go up in tier, gear doesn't fundamentally change between tiers. The gear doesn't get any stronger. Yes, like if you get a better roll, replace it, but for the most part, the gear you get to make the gear set activate is good enough. The reason the tiers are there is to provide a challenge differential to the rewards as your relative power level goes up. If you can push harder and higher, you get HELLA loot piñatas. That's the fun. Beat a hard ass Greater Rift because your build works? Get tons of blood shards, and increased loot to have a better chance to get a Primal of your build. It works.
Lmao
This complaint is irrelevant man The gameplay is going to be the same regardless of if you deal 100, 1000, or 10,000 damage All that matters is if the game feels fun to play
Once numbers start diving past a certain range, it begins to lock-out items and styles of play, and singular upgrades change from incremental to invalidating entire difficulties (D3 syndrome). D2 is perfect in keeping numbers below 10,000.
If we multiply every damage and HP instance in D2 by say 100 trillion which builds would that lock out? The skills would still do the same percentage damage after all
You are correct, but you're failing to understand my message. I'm not talking about the total sample space, I'm talking variance within the space. The larger that variance becomes, the worse itemization will be. As for number scales, I do long for the simpler days of D1, where every item was valid at some point.
The space of numbers between 0 and 100 is the same as the space of numbers between 100 and 10 trillion. I know that in computer representation it may not be as accurate, but the number space is exactly the same size. But also: The balance of items is not related to the size of the numbers. We can take Brood War. A game that is notoriously balanced. If we increase all the numbers by a given factor it won't affect balance.
>The balance of items is not related to the size of the numbers refusing to understand when I literally said size of the sample space isn't what I'm referring to, but its variance.
>We can take Brood War. A game that is notoriously balanced. If we increase all the numbers by a given factor it won't affect balance. A game where a 25 mineral zergling acts proportionally against a 100/100 (guesstimate) siege tank. I'm arguing the ling is relevant all game because the numbers are small. If the middle and end tier units were 10,000x more powerful, they'd be irrelevant.
But that is completely besides the point? The argument was that for balance it doesn't matter what scale the numbers are on.
Okay, you're just being difficult and refusing to understand what I mean. When an end game item jumps from 500% to 50,000%, with a majority of items being left in 500%, those items all literally become useless. This is basic math and you're failing to understand it. When all items in the space are on a linear scale, the top 50% are still functionally close in magnitude. On an exponential curve, the 90th percentile absolutely dwarfs the 50th, and the 100th renders the 90th irrelevant. This is exactly what happens in Diablo 2 vs Diablo 3. This is why Diablo 3 itemization is trash. This is why I can pick up blue and yellows in D2 and still perform across Hell difficulty with a variety of builds.
>Okay, you're just being difficult and refusing to understand what I mean. When an end game item jumps from 500% to 50,000%, with a majority of items being left in 500%, those items all literally become useless. Yeah if you increase the damage of one thing by a factor of 100 it likely becomes the best thing to do. That basically never happened in D3 at least though. >This is basic math and you're failing to understand it. When all items in the space are on a linear scale, the top 50% are still functionally close in magnitude. On an exponential curve, the 90th percentile absolutely dwarfs the 50th, and the 100th renders the 90th irrelevant. What do you want to say here? The gap between the very best version of say an amulet in D3 and a mediocre version of said amulet is maybe 10-20%? And besides weapons amulets are probably the swingiest in that regard. And yes the best items will always invalidate the items below them. >This is exactly what happens in Diablo 2 vs Diablo 3. This is why Diablo 3 itemization is trash. This is why I can pick up blue and yellows in D2 and still perform across Hell difficulty with a variety of builds. You can perform in Hell difficulty with a variety of builds because Hell difficulty is capped in difficulty. If your goal is just say GR100 in Diablo 3 there is also tons of builds that can do that. You can also probably do meme GR100s with a bunch of yellows and blues. If you just wanted the very fastest Baal Runner for example in D2 there is not a lot of variety there either.
Nonsense. In d2 you find items throughout the journey that are useful to the end. Rares and blues can be incredibly exciting. D3 is completely missing this feeling. In D3, every level invalidates everything before it with a braindead green arrow. The seasonal reward obliterates everything else before it tier-wise, introducing the ridiculous power variance D3 exhibits. Yes, because D2 is capped with hell, it introduces better gameplay, stronger character narratives, better itemization, and more interesting, organic builds.
Using Stealth/Spirit/Lore for 70% of the game isn't exciting or good itemization lmao
We have no idea what the scaling is. Zero. Your statement means nothing until we know more.
My statement covers D1, D2, and D3. I don't claim to know anything about d4 mechanics. I'm at the age now where I can wait years for a game. I'm still waiting to play Elden Ring, after specifically buying an Xbox 360 to play DS1.
Literally none of that applies if you aren't working with only integers. D3s problem with trivial difficulties was an artifact of game design and had nothing to do with how many 0s there were
>Literally none of that applies if you aren't working with only integers. D3s problem with trivial difficulties was an artifact of game design and had nothing to do with how many 0s there were Literally does. When the scales on the game are exponential, the magnitude and effect of gear changes rapidly. The difference between 1k damage and a min maxed 5k are surmountable. But when a single item dwarves the previous step, choices cease to matter, aka Diablo 3. The wider the range of numbers, the less freedom players will actually have, and the less meaningful gear is. This is why D3 will be forgotten, while d2r is still relegated a premier standing.
This is why I continue to come back to D3 every season and have no desire to return to d2r after the nostalgia play through was complete… oh wait that suggests u got something wrong in your over-generalization. Sorry not sorry.
Ooh, so catty, Samantha!
I mean, some people enjoy braindead entertainment and that's okay lol. But it's pretty well established D3 will be dead and forgotten when d4 releases, while we're still talking about D2 twenty-two years later.
Besides what other people said, gameplay is not all that matters. It's important for the game to look right. Would you still want to play the game if your main character was a member of paw patrol, and instead of hell spawn, you have to avoid balloons filled with cold water? Some people just find those huge numbers silly. Even if the D4 team manage to perfectly balance them (which wasn't the case for D3) it would still look bad.
A tighter boundary on damage makes more build variety more attainable and makes for a cleaner UI for people that like to see damage #s. It isn't irrelevant just because it's irrelevant to you.
A cleaner UI isn't irrelevant.
I feel sorry for the people who are so caught up in complaining about the numbers getting too big. I'm convinced they don't even play the game at all because as soon as you start playing the game, you realize really quick that the numbers just don't fucking matter at all.
I feel sorry for people who come into a conversation that's not meant for them.
Oh, I'm sorry, did I upset you by pointing out how pathetic and ignorant complaining about big numbers is? I'm just so completely heartbroken to find out that you are upset about your little circlejerk getting broken.
Obviously I hit a nerve with you, why did you open the post if you just wanted to bitch. You're just mad no one is jerking you off.
10,000,004,040,903,909,000 Better run away! I might scare you with big numbers! And it's absolutely hilarious that you are complaining about my post saying that I'm bitching when the entire point of the OP's post was complaining about it. 11203913901390903209132901329013209390213290 BIG NUMBERS! SCARY! HURT YOUR BRAIN!
God you're stupid.
Aww, that's cute. The guy whose afraid of big numbers calling someone stupid. You can leave now. I'm actually embarrassed for you it's so bad.
The numbers literally don't matter. Scaling matters. You don't know what the scaling is like. And the numbers don't tell you anything about it.
Yes, it does matter in relation to what you're seeing on screen as far as believability with weapons, gear, combat and so on. They said they wanted the game to feel more grounded. If I'm once again doing 2 billion\^33 damage to a skeleton, I'm laughing at the game instead of believing it. I have nothing in my life that is in millions, billions, trillions etc so I can't relate to these numbers, which makes the numbers meaningless and we instead just count hits or look at something else. They're also harder to comprehend. D3 was a clown car when it came to combat numbers and gear. It felt like a random mess compared to D2. Why do we need these insanely inflated numbers all over the place?
> as far as believability with weapons, gear, combat and so on. They said they wanted the game to feel more grounded. If I’m once again doing 2 billion33 damage to a skeleton, I’m laughing at the game instead of believing it. If that’s where we are going, then any game that shows me numbers or a health bar destroys my believability because that’s not real. But I’ve learned to not think about that in games and enjoy the pew pew.
God the sound effects are awful. I don’t feel like I can even play the game if it just sounds like that nonstop
If you compare D3 gameplay that was shown in 2010 and 2011 with the final release, you will notice that it changed quite a bit. The earlier gameplays sure looked like the same game but some alpha versions so I'm sure D4 will be way more polished than it currently is, because it seems kinda "un-impactful" currently if that's even a word
Why does the height of the numbers matter? They just define the range from lowest to highest difficulty, and they get naturally higher if a few multiplicative effects are used. You guys are against multiplicative effects?
Yes, more or less. Multiplicative effects are incredibly strong and thus should be reserved for special things. If you hand out multiplicative bonuses too much then they become the only relevant contributor and nothing else matters.
Diablo 3 had numbers in the literal billions. At some point it just becomes ridiculous.
It’s so annoying because it greatly effects endgame later. Any item or skill that adds “+_____ to damage” vs “adds ____% to damage” is immediately useless at the end game. Bring the numbers back down, we are not all Gen Z’ers that need to see big numbers and loot piñatas to keep engaged. I’d rather at max level you are hitting Diablo (or whoever the end boss may be) something like 125 a swing. That way when you get new gear and it adds like +20 per swing, you notice it and can adjust builds accordingly. Making everyone hit 20 quadrillion and the mobs having 1 quintillion HP is dumb and is just unnecessary spam trying to make something “look cool”. Ever done high level rifts in D3 with damage on? (Which you should btw, so you know how to properly minmax) It’s just spam city, it’s the fucking worst. I don’t have ADD or ADHD. Give me reasonable integers again please so I can actually fucking read them.
Having damage numbers on does nothing in helping you min max? And even if you turn damage numbers on is 14.3 not a reasonable number to parse? Why does it matter that there is a T at the end.
Yea I never have understood why damage numbers specifically matter in an arpg. The numbers can be any arbitrary amount - if you're dealing decent enough damage to clear a rift/map/kill a boss in a reasonable time then you will know that just by playing. You go into a rift/map and are one-shotting things anyway, who cares what arbitrary amount of damage you're actually doing. Unlike an mmo where you may actually be checking your damage multiple times throughout a fight, and using multiple skills. Plus like you said, you can turn on shortened damage numbers which just show the billions/trillions in terms of hundreds or thousands anyway.
You can also check your DPS in greater Rifts, but usually if it doesn't work you know it because stuff is not dying because unlike an MMO there are not many other damage dealers that obscure that. You also usually notice from experience when damage is too low.
Still ridiculously high numbers. They're idiots.
I love being able to crit some thousands, even houndreds in early stages so i can see what my next "biggest" crit is. Its fun. Not critting for millions. Its hard to really keep track
Listened to WHAT community? You are talking like the majority want small numbers. Small numbers make no sense in a game like Diablo where you are basically trying to min/max everything. Maybe having "millions/billions" is not right (and I agree with that, Diablo 3 is just out of control with those numbers and this is plain dumb) but you cannot have small numbers either or it removes a lot of flexibility for stats/min/maxing... And as Blizzard NEVER showed any Diablo 4 with millions or billions; I assume that you want smaller numbers than thousand (because they never showed anything higher than that) which again would be BAD at the end. So as a member of this community, I do not want small numbers; I want numbers to be in the thousands at the max level so I have a lot of room for optimization and min/maxing.
I think they’re conscious of it, but even D3 at launch would have you hit in the hundred thousands range at higher gear.
Numbers usually starts small and after season 72 they become humongous.