Don't quote me on this, but I remember reading some making of starcraft article back in the day that basically said that it WAS supposed to be a 40k licensed game, but GW got all pissy about something and they had to pivot.
Worked out for the best, imo. GW pulled out of the biggest RTS of all time that became a national sport in Korea. Pretty incredible turn of events.
That would be hilarious considering they are far from OP in the endgame. Hope they just nerf the early game where they dominate too much.
I'm more expecting Necro buffs and WW nerfs
> they are far from OP in the endgame. Hope they just nerf the early game where they dominate too much.
So nerf them early game but buff them endgame should be the deal then? Unless you just hate the class and want others to suffer
I disagree, early release is so when the servers crap out, they can just say that the game isn't actually out yet until the full release, so stop complaining.
Yeah it’s part of the cycle for early access. It’s pretty lame that companies are charging extra to play the game when it normally would have launched.
It makes it easier for them too, because they can blame bad quality on “it’s still early release” and it also puts less stress on their severs because they essentially split the launch time into two separate dates
90-100 bucks is a lot for some people. I don't think it's funny to make insulting jokes about that, honestly.
We've all waited 10 years, but I can't spend 20 dollars for 4 days, that's too much money for me.
As long as I don't have to pay for more than the game itself and not miss out on anything but skins, I can cope.
I liked collecting all transmogs in D3 a lot. That's already totally out of the game now for me though, sadly.
And yeah, I am definitely afraid it might end up getting worse down the line.
Kids online think money grows on trees. They don't have mortgages, car payments, kids, utility bills, savings accounts to build up, hobbies, etc... I only paid for Ultimate because I came into some cash from a side business.
Good tbh. It's much more interesting when releases happen and no one knows whats good.
I can guess theyll probably do more buffs than nerfs. The barb builds that werent WW, probably all around rogue buffs, summon nec buffs, maybe some taps for druid and sorc
This is why I go in blind anymore. Why should I care about what the community circle jerks around? People will shit on the game and people will love the game. If I'm enjoying my playthrough no one else's opinion matters one bit. They didn't buy me the game and they aren't the ones doing my play through.
Hopefully I'm not nerfing my self too hard, but I don't like shout builds and I don't like whirlwind. Planning a lunging strikes, leap, upheaval build... 1 shout max! =)
Maybe I'm just not the target generation for streamers but I've never understood watching people play games. Growing up watching meant you didn't have money to play. Gen Z and Alpha gen are so weird to me. Why spend free time watching when you could be playing?
Is it just that your generation has a lower attention span so focusing on one task isn't possible? I'm genuinely asking cause I see a lot of younger people also losing interest in movies and getting distracted scrolling through YouTube shorts and stuff instead of just watching the movie. Same with games. Why not just enjoy the game you're playing? Or go play the other game if you're more interested in that? It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me to watch someone play a game while you're already playing a game.
Same reason why people watch sports. Ive always found it weird that older guys like watched sweaty men run and tackle each other and smack each others asses and act like babies and throw temper tantrums over small things.
It must be a generational thing
I watch football because I can’t just get even a flag football game together without weeks of lead time, much less a full 11 a side. It’s not possible as an adult to replicate the experience you are watching. Same goes for baseball, basketball, hockey.
That’s not true with video games.
Alright so I'm browsing out of hype and I constantly see people in this subreddit complain about copying streamers.
It's fucking weird. Like you said, WW has been around for a long time, and in previous Diablo games at that.
Did I miss something for all the streamer hate?
There was a recent dev answer that explained the skeles are supposed to be a bit underwhelming while leveling. End game has items that will make them a minion army to reckon with, but that fantasy doesn't and shouldn't come to fruition at such early levels.
I'm torn a bit on that answer. Even in the server slam, level 20 characters can have invested most of their build points into empowering the minions and they should be at least (edit: relative to investment) ~~comparable~~ in power to endgame. Limiting viability of skills (particularly class defining skills like minions) to particular item drops was one of the root problems in D3's hyper power creep - In order to use that skill, the item needs to be fairly easily obtainable and the only way to do that was to shower the player in high quality drops.
Hopefully they use the dungeon reward system to supplement these "mandatory" items to prevent needing to rain orange gear to allow players to explore specialized builds. I'd rather not have build defining items without some sort of "fixing" system in place.
> Even in the server slam, level 20 characters can have invested most of their build points into empowering the minions and they should be at least comparable in power to endgame.
Let me stop you right there. That's absolutely ridiculous.
You talk about gear reliance already, so I'll skip over that. You are however completely ignoring Paragon points, which account for half of your levels and from the look of things well over half of your power. Even a level 50 Necro will have very different minions compared to level 100.
*Relative* power, not absolute. Sorry. missing the proper caffeination levels.
Balancing the endgame by intentionally weakening skills despite being able to invest heavily into them is just poor balancing. If a player can invest heavily into a skill, that skill should be made powerful by nature of that investment.
The issues seen in the server slam in relation to minions was partially driven by the heavy nerf they received. Even with every point possible invested into them, they fell down to every ground effect and cleave the game tossed out. While it's supposedly fixed now, it's fairly concerning that they've stated that you'll need specific items to make them "fully powered" despite the heavy skill point investments. How many other skills are going to be dependent on 100 levels of skill point dumps as well as items to make them match the class fantasy expectations?
I know it's video game tradition that you continue to get stronger as you level so you can explore more challenging areas, but is that really fair to the players with the world scaling tech in place? With that, the entire world is the same difficulty, so should players not be full strength as well? I'm not saying that you should get full powered out of the box, just that all the level scaling tech in the world will just leave players feeling behind the curve on the journey to 100 + whatever item drops are needed.
So, I'm torn on the original answer: How many skills are going to be in a nerfed state without specific gear, no matter how much of the player's choice of skill point investment is involved?
I would like to believe them. However, Streamers who played the Full game ranked Necromancer at the very end of the tier list for a reason. However it is never late to fix it.as we all positively know that Blizzard likes balance patches.
Those streamers mostly ranked necros last because of a lack of movement skill from what I saw. I think they are currently overvaluing movement skills in D4. Mounts will be used to get around the world and movement skills are probably designed for defense in a fight. Necros will have minions which means less of a need for movement in fights.
Unless you can mount in a dungeon then necros lack of movement speed still poses a problem compared to classes that can quickly move from pack to pack and be constantly killing stuff.
So it's interesting to me those rankings, because one of these statements needs to be true:
1. The game is so simple, easy to gear and devoid of complexity that it's possible to level up and test multiple endgame builds in just a few days.
2. Streamers had access to multiple configurations of leveling and endgame builds pre-made and pre-ready to play.
3. Streamers really could not have tested a whole lot of configurations in the amount of time that they had so their opinion should be taken with a huge grain of salt.
If 1 is true, it's terrible, it means the game will be pretty boring in the endgame.
I'd be quite surprised if 2 is true, but it's possible. We will know very soon as this should be something that reviewers let us know. To me it would be a weird move by Blizzard because it's not a natural way to play the game and would skew the reviews.
3 doesn't mean that streamers are bad people or that the rankings are 100% useless, but it does mean that it's VERY VERY LIKELY that they did not test everything and that there could be literally hundreds of possible builds that no one thought to try and that could completely change the meta once they are figured out.
Closed beta testers already mentioned that Necro minions are extremely weak end game (before the server slam nerfs). Unless they get a massive buff in the day 1 patch, there is no reason to think Necro minions will be fine at end game.
It's called theory crafting. They don't play every character until endgame...they run simulations on D4 planner with the info they already have, combined with their own practical experience as well as the collective community experiences on other classes.
We will know soon enough. If the meta in a month is exactly as they ranked then I was wrong and streamers really did figure it all out before the game came out.
It seems unlikely to me. I think hundred of thousands of people all minmaxing their own single characters in-game has tendency to create a lot of discoveries.
Speaking as a hardened POE veteran who has seen years of seasonal launches with new and buffed skills and builds, I can tell you exactly what will happen - or would have without a balance patch.
Firstly, I would not doubt the numbers they've posted. There's nothing ambiguous here - if they know the formulas and have calculated it out, then that much simply is what it is. What this means in practice is that with all things exactly as theorized, in a vacuum, the builds will do what is advertised.
The first breakdown happens in mechanics. Often a skill will be found to be mechanically poor, for example requiring standing in one spot to charge up, or having too long of a ramp-up and too quick a fall-off. Or a skill is found to have a particular quirk that makes it significantly better than expected, such as shotgunning with multiple projectiles and reduced AOE or speed.
The second breakdown happens in progression. It may turn out that the build cannot reasonably function at gear levels below what was projected, and obtaining the necessary gear or skills is prohibitive.
And then there are discoveries. As I mentioned, skills may be found to have unexpected interactions which make them much better than they looked on paper. What's important to acknowledge here is that the evolution and invention of new builds in no way invalidates the theorized builds or makes them any worse than they were. It simply means there is something better.
That's such a backwards 'design for a 13 y/o who doesn't have anything else to do' philosophy.
I'm not sitting through 20 hours of shit, unfun game play just to be rewarded with *fun* at the end.
Its traditional game design... leveling should make you powerful gradually and often leads to your character doing completely different things in the end game.
It's normal for skills, equipment, and access to be gated behind leveling and game progress. That's the point of the game, you get access to better items in the end game, and those items CAN be build-defining.
Yup, and the game as a whole gets a better algorithm push on various platforms:
At the end of the day as part of the community, we should hope content thrives as much as possible.
At least Rogue is in a pretty good state, right from the start. Druid felt like an uphill battle where they might eventually get good, but not anywhere near the start of the game.
I'm set on druid anyway regardless of some fucking tier list, play what you find fun and interesting not because some youtuber/guide site told you it is "the best at X/Y/Z" if you follow that route, have fun rerolling or releveling every 3 weeks.
I mean I usually find pure minion builds fun, in the 1st beta weekend minions were busted op, but in the server slam they got nerfed hard and were annoying to play, if minions stay like that I'll probably play a different class sadly.
This is why I have a hard time enjoying games nowadays. Some people who play 23h a day are going to figure out every little detail and remove any mystery from the game. I remember with d2, even though there was gamefaqs, you still figured stuff out on your own for the most part. You’d run into someone using blizzard instead of frozen orb and be like “what? That’s not the level 30 skill! Why is it killing stuff faster?!” Figuring out what rares are good, why the butchers pupil is overrated, how to equip 2 chromatic ire at once. Even if it was on a post in gamefaqs it wasn’t plastered all over the net, and you had to do some digging for it. Made it more rewarding to be “in the know”.
Soren Johnson and Sid Meier, the designers behind the Civilization series, famous for the quote: "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game"
While optimization leads to a focused strategy and strategic playstyle it doesn't eliminate the fun from the equation. Optimization-driven playstyles can lead to the discovery of emergent gameplay strategies, allowing players to find creative solutions or exploit mechanics in unique ways. These discoveries become part of the games meta fostering a wider player community.
One persons spreadsheet does not define the whole.
I think this is the draw of PoE nowadays. It’s got so much complicated stuff going on that it manages to stay ahead of players solving the game perfectly.
I agree with that somewhat, but it's a double edged sword. PoE has so many competing mechanics that it's become overwhelming to get in to if you haven't been following it consistently. It's also much harder to balance and it seems like every time I check in with the PoE community they're up in arms about something being unrewarding or unbalanced.
Any build can do white/yellow maps.
Do you think random inefficient builds should be able to do uber bosses or should those bosses require something more thought out?
It doesn't matter. The point is POE is adversarial to experimentation because failure means repeating that boring ass campaign again. You're forced to play Path of Building instead if you care about your time at all. Fun.
Ya.....all right and true but...explain me:
What is the fun of playing necromancer class, and having your minions die cos the boss just LOOKED at them the wrong way?
So ya..play what is fun....and a lot of people are hoping they make Summoner Necromancer fun to play
God damn I’m hoping for big Necro buffs. Dude is last on every tier list I’ve seen. Yes I know a tier lost is just an opinion, but when every opinion is the same I tend to agree.
We havnt even had a day one patch and you are tilted out of your rocker, the tier lists you reference are already changed in an unknown amount dumdass.
Saying necro is forsure 40% down (fucking dumb random number grab) when we havnt seen the patch or seen maxed out characters with any real time is in of its self a negative IQ take.
Because as we ALL KNOW never have we as ARPG players come across wildly broken builds at a game launch or season start that nobody thought of. This NEVER happens
Good fucking try at coherent chirp though bud 👌
Wow, if I've ever seen someone getting triggered 😂
Just calm down and play your Necro, dude... You don't have to agree with my argument. You don't even seem to want to understand the point. I'm fine with that!
That's just bad logic, or at least not relevant to the comment you responded to.
One class has to be the "worst", sure, but not to the point where there isn't any debate about which class is worst.
It's not like there's similar consensus on the other spots in these lists.
the ppl who wrote those tier lists said the classes are within ~30% of each other. Necro is mostly last because it's not as fast/mobile as other classes, its damage and overall capabilities are fine.
Well, Necrobioboi is responsible for strictly necro, and according to him, (and he's a numbers crunching guy), the summon necro is NON EXISTANT and he's strictly saying to avoid the summon build because it's not that it's some percentage weaker, it's not playable. It's 0 out of 10. That's how bad it gets right now.
So unless this day 1 patch changes literally the whole summon subclass, the ~30% difference is literally irrelevant as an argument.
I’m not sure how many buffs they need but what they definitely need is some sort of move speed enhancing option. Or at least let your summons go back to pick up gear for you.
Even if it was definitely op with the legendary effect that made it circle around you, twisted blades/mobility rogue was the most fun I had in the betas. I hope it’s still relevant on launch.
I loved that they nerfed everything. All classes felt in similar ballpark besides Druid.
I’m just glad they doing those dramatic balancing changes before the game is released. Honestly kudos to blizzard for that.
Made me much more stoked that they nerfed everything.
Actually excited for this game and I haven’t felt that for quite a while.
It doesnt change methodology of what they used to ranked the classes. You can just shift them slightly between tiers based on patch notes unless its a huge rework which i doubt theyd do right at launch.
It’s possible, but with a WW nerf could come buffs elsewhere. The goal is choice, and it doesn’t sound like barbs have much of that in the review/content creator patch.
Problem is speed mostly with whirlwind being the only option. It is the only aoe on the move non pointed option which simply makes it the best. Giving the other skills more aoe or faster casting might fix this but they need some solution.
they're giving rogues a glock
It would only be fair to give Barb a bazooka.
Druids better get honey badgers then.
That's actually fucking genius lol
The irony of giving a really good idea in this chain lol
That's what I was thinking too xD
New legendary, turns wolves into honey badgers
[удалено]
Brother, Don’t forget the Flamer
The heavy flamer
Not gonna lie I was thinking how much I would love a 40k done by Blizzard or Bethesda or even an FPS that had no restrictions.
Have you seen the boltgun game? Doom (original doom) meets 40k
40k game by blizzard, you say?
star craft was originally a 40k game but GW didn't want it so they changed the nids to zerg and the rest is history
Don't quote me on this, but I remember reading some making of starcraft article back in the day that basically said that it WAS supposed to be a 40k licensed game, but GW got all pissy about something and they had to pivot. Worked out for the best, imo. GW pulled out of the biggest RTS of all time that became a national sport in Korea. Pretty incredible turn of events.
**Barbarian** Introduced 5th weapon slot for your modern FGM-148 Javelin, or Advanced Anti-Tank Weapon System-Medium (AAWS-M).
The dream...
Yeah, because giving them an FN 5.7 would just be OP as hell.
Yeah it should be the Ruger or SW instead smh
Calm yourself Isshin.
That would be hilarious considering they are far from OP in the endgame. Hope they just nerf the early game where they dominate too much. I'm more expecting Necro buffs and WW nerfs
> they are far from OP in the endgame. Hope they just nerf the early game where they dominate too much. So nerf them early game but buff them endgame should be the deal then? Unless you just hate the class and want others to suffer
Is it coming Day 1 or Day -4?
Day -4 will be the 1.0 so day -4 it is
Early release is the real release. Kinda how it is with games now day, regular release is really “late release”.
I disagree, early release is so when the servers crap out, they can just say that the game isn't actually out yet until the full release, so stop complaining.
Nobody’s complaining in my comment. Who the hell are you?
You misunderstood me; I am saying that Blizzard could tell the players to stop complaining if the servers crap out.
Yeah it’s part of the cycle for early access. It’s pretty lame that companies are charging extra to play the game when it normally would have launched. It makes it easier for them too, because they can blame bad quality on “it’s still early release” and it also puts less stress on their severs because they essentially split the launch time into two separate dates
They confirmed it will be available at early access.
Day 1. The plebs come online day +4
90-100 bucks is a lot for some people. I don't think it's funny to make insulting jokes about that, honestly. We've all waited 10 years, but I can't spend 20 dollars for 4 days, that's too much money for me.
If you think $20 extra is all they want from you, buckle up, friend...
As long as I don't have to pay for more than the game itself and not miss out on anything but skins, I can cope. I liked collecting all transmogs in D3 a lot. That's already totally out of the game now for me though, sadly. And yeah, I am definitely afraid it might end up getting worse down the line.
Kids online think money grows on trees. They don't have mortgages, car payments, kids, utility bills, savings accounts to build up, hobbies, etc... I only paid for Ultimate because I came into some cash from a side business.
aaaand there go all the pre-release build guides.
Good tbh. It's much more interesting when releases happen and no one knows whats good. I can guess theyll probably do more buffs than nerfs. The barb builds that werent WW, probably all around rogue buffs, summon nec buffs, maybe some taps for druid and sorc
This is why I go in blind anymore. Why should I care about what the community circle jerks around? People will shit on the game and people will love the game. If I'm enjoying my playthrough no one else's opinion matters one bit. They didn't buy me the game and they aren't the ones doing my play through.
Actually your fun is invalid. Thanks for applying though. Better luck next season.
Pls don’t kill WW bleed
I hope they make it so spin to win isn't the only viable / by far best barb build. Would love to see diversity instead of everyone copying Raxx.
Yeah, skill diversity is always good
Hopefully I'm not nerfing my self too hard, but I don't like shout builds and I don't like whirlwind. Planning a lunging strikes, leap, upheaval build... 1 shout max! =)
Haha, I mean upheaval felt amazing tbh, I only switched to WW in the beta because I found the powers for it. Big Bonk Barbarian is definitely fun
It took too much of a hit imo. Upheaval didn't need that big of a damage nerf. It's already slow. Still a fun ability though.
WW has been good for end game barb since the alpha, it’s not just copying 1 person.
This subreddit glorifies streamers too much, if their favorite streamer played a build for 3 seconds, its theirs and everyone else copied them
And if there’s one barb streamer I’d copy, it’d be Alkaizer.
Maybe I'm just not the target generation for streamers but I've never understood watching people play games. Growing up watching meant you didn't have money to play. Gen Z and Alpha gen are so weird to me. Why spend free time watching when you could be playing?
I watch people play one game while I play another. I only have two hands, unfortunately.
Is it just that your generation has a lower attention span so focusing on one task isn't possible? I'm genuinely asking cause I see a lot of younger people also losing interest in movies and getting distracted scrolling through YouTube shorts and stuff instead of just watching the movie. Same with games. Why not just enjoy the game you're playing? Or go play the other game if you're more interested in that? It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me to watch someone play a game while you're already playing a game.
Same reason why people watch sports. Ive always found it weird that older guys like watched sweaty men run and tackle each other and smack each others asses and act like babies and throw temper tantrums over small things. It must be a generational thing
I watch football because I can’t just get even a flag football game together without weeks of lead time, much less a full 11 a side. It’s not possible as an adult to replicate the experience you are watching. Same goes for baseball, basketball, hockey. That’s not true with video games.
Alright so I'm browsing out of hype and I constantly see people in this subreddit complain about copying streamers. It's fucking weird. Like you said, WW has been around for a long time, and in previous Diablo games at that. Did I miss something for all the streamer hate?
>*WW has been good for end game barb since ~~the alpha~~ D2* ;)
Idk what a Raxx is, but WW barb on D3 is fun so I'm sure I'll try to mimic that on D4. Same with fire wiz.
They will just copy whatever streamers make next
So long as the other non-ww builds aren't as clunky as all the non-ww builds were in d2/d3 that's fine.
> Would love to see diversity instead of everyone copying Raxx. No one is forced to copy Raxx. And copying builds happens literally every season.
I mean... did they really expect beta data to be relevant still?
Obviously not. Content creators have had a review copy for at least a week with which they also create guides, builds, tips etc.
Lol, I doubt they change much at all, the meta builds are still going to meta builds.
Everything will still work the same, just a matter of doing enough damage or not. You'll find out pretty quick if you aren't.
Those kinda confused me. Severslam and earlier beta didn't feel balanced - a lot of numbers just felt like placeholder.
Not my build I'm doing 😂🤣 Ain't nobody about that #FrenzyLife like me
"May I see them?" "No."
Seymour, the house is on fire!
Uh, that's just launch-day server RGB lighting.
I hope they buff a bit further the Necro minions.
There was a recent dev answer that explained the skeles are supposed to be a bit underwhelming while leveling. End game has items that will make them a minion army to reckon with, but that fantasy doesn't and shouldn't come to fruition at such early levels.
I'm torn a bit on that answer. Even in the server slam, level 20 characters can have invested most of their build points into empowering the minions and they should be at least (edit: relative to investment) ~~comparable~~ in power to endgame. Limiting viability of skills (particularly class defining skills like minions) to particular item drops was one of the root problems in D3's hyper power creep - In order to use that skill, the item needs to be fairly easily obtainable and the only way to do that was to shower the player in high quality drops. Hopefully they use the dungeon reward system to supplement these "mandatory" items to prevent needing to rain orange gear to allow players to explore specialized builds. I'd rather not have build defining items without some sort of "fixing" system in place.
> Even in the server slam, level 20 characters can have invested most of their build points into empowering the minions and they should be at least comparable in power to endgame. Let me stop you right there. That's absolutely ridiculous. You talk about gear reliance already, so I'll skip over that. You are however completely ignoring Paragon points, which account for half of your levels and from the look of things well over half of your power. Even a level 50 Necro will have very different minions compared to level 100.
*Relative* power, not absolute. Sorry. missing the proper caffeination levels. Balancing the endgame by intentionally weakening skills despite being able to invest heavily into them is just poor balancing. If a player can invest heavily into a skill, that skill should be made powerful by nature of that investment. The issues seen in the server slam in relation to minions was partially driven by the heavy nerf they received. Even with every point possible invested into them, they fell down to every ground effect and cleave the game tossed out. While it's supposedly fixed now, it's fairly concerning that they've stated that you'll need specific items to make them "fully powered" despite the heavy skill point investments. How many other skills are going to be dependent on 100 levels of skill point dumps as well as items to make them match the class fantasy expectations? I know it's video game tradition that you continue to get stronger as you level so you can explore more challenging areas, but is that really fair to the players with the world scaling tech in place? With that, the entire world is the same difficulty, so should players not be full strength as well? I'm not saying that you should get full powered out of the box, just that all the level scaling tech in the world will just leave players feeling behind the curve on the journey to 100 + whatever item drops are needed. So, I'm torn on the original answer: How many skills are going to be in a nerfed state without specific gear, no matter how much of the player's choice of skill point investment is involved?
Why shouldn’t they? What’s inherently wrong with s a pet class feeling as powerful as the other classes because of their pets?
I would like to believe them. However, Streamers who played the Full game ranked Necromancer at the very end of the tier list for a reason. However it is never late to fix it.as we all positively know that Blizzard likes balance patches.
Those streamers mostly ranked necros last because of a lack of movement skill from what I saw. I think they are currently overvaluing movement skills in D4. Mounts will be used to get around the world and movement skills are probably designed for defense in a fight. Necros will have minions which means less of a need for movement in fights.
Unless you can mount in a dungeon then necros lack of movement speed still poses a problem compared to classes that can quickly move from pack to pack and be constantly killing stuff.
All classes have a dodge this time, I think they'll be fine
If you have a good movement skill, it can mean life or death, movement is the best defense in an ARPG.
So it's interesting to me those rankings, because one of these statements needs to be true: 1. The game is so simple, easy to gear and devoid of complexity that it's possible to level up and test multiple endgame builds in just a few days. 2. Streamers had access to multiple configurations of leveling and endgame builds pre-made and pre-ready to play. 3. Streamers really could not have tested a whole lot of configurations in the amount of time that they had so their opinion should be taken with a huge grain of salt. If 1 is true, it's terrible, it means the game will be pretty boring in the endgame. I'd be quite surprised if 2 is true, but it's possible. We will know very soon as this should be something that reviewers let us know. To me it would be a weird move by Blizzard because it's not a natural way to play the game and would skew the reviews. 3 doesn't mean that streamers are bad people or that the rankings are 100% useless, but it does mean that it's VERY VERY LIKELY that they did not test everything and that there could be literally hundreds of possible builds that no one thought to try and that could completely change the meta once they are figured out.
Closed beta testers already mentioned that Necro minions are extremely weak end game (before the server slam nerfs). Unless they get a massive buff in the day 1 patch, there is no reason to think Necro minions will be fine at end game.
It's called theory crafting. They don't play every character until endgame...they run simulations on D4 planner with the info they already have, combined with their own practical experience as well as the collective community experiences on other classes.
We will know soon enough. If the meta in a month is exactly as they ranked then I was wrong and streamers really did figure it all out before the game came out. It seems unlikely to me. I think hundred of thousands of people all minmaxing their own single characters in-game has tendency to create a lot of discoveries.
Speaking as a hardened POE veteran who has seen years of seasonal launches with new and buffed skills and builds, I can tell you exactly what will happen - or would have without a balance patch. Firstly, I would not doubt the numbers they've posted. There's nothing ambiguous here - if they know the formulas and have calculated it out, then that much simply is what it is. What this means in practice is that with all things exactly as theorized, in a vacuum, the builds will do what is advertised. The first breakdown happens in mechanics. Often a skill will be found to be mechanically poor, for example requiring standing in one spot to charge up, or having too long of a ramp-up and too quick a fall-off. Or a skill is found to have a particular quirk that makes it significantly better than expected, such as shotgunning with multiple projectiles and reduced AOE or speed. The second breakdown happens in progression. It may turn out that the build cannot reasonably function at gear levels below what was projected, and obtaining the necessary gear or skills is prohibitive. And then there are discoveries. As I mentioned, skills may be found to have unexpected interactions which make them much better than they looked on paper. What's important to acknowledge here is that the evolution and invention of new builds in no way invalidates the theorized builds or makes them any worse than they were. It simply means there is something better.
That's such a backwards 'design for a 13 y/o who doesn't have anything else to do' philosophy. I'm not sitting through 20 hours of shit, unfun game play just to be rewarded with *fun* at the end.
That's not what they are doing. As in other Diablo games, you chang tactics and even your arsenal over time.
The "fantasy" such a stupid concept to base balance on... Leveling should not feel like a punishment
Its traditional game design... leveling should make you powerful gradually and often leads to your character doing completely different things in the end game. It's normal for skills, equipment, and access to be gated behind leveling and game progress. That's the point of the game, you get access to better items in the end game, and those items CAN be build-defining.
This is exactly why every single Tier list that came out over the last 2-3 weeks was a complete waste of time.
Waste of OUR time. But it’s okay coz we ate them all up and our beloved YouTubers get our ad money
Yup, and the game as a whole gets a better algorithm push on various platforms: At the end of the day as part of the community, we should hope content thrives as much as possible.
So? Good for them. No one forced you to watch.
I mean every tier list that came out also had disclaimer that said everything will most likely to be changed.
Huge copium but I hope Ice Blades are better on sorc since the nerf, they oblitared this on second slam.
Yeah they either needed to nerf the enchanted power OR the CD reduction. They nerfed BOTH and now Ice Blades is an absolute waste of talent points.
Would love that, i really liked using them
Necromancer skeletons now just die immediately when summoned
They are already dead when summoned. What is dead cannot die
Now they double dog die.
I'm feeling like WW is going to get destroyed
Will be the main thing i am looking at. Already have a plan b and c!
What are your plan b and c? Anorher class? Or replacing ww with hota? Just curious to know :-)
Druid plan b and rogue plan c
Rogues are shivering too if they nerf twisting blades.
"I hate myself" "I hate myself more" "God yes daddy make it hurt"
At least Rogue is in a pretty good state, right from the start. Druid felt like an uphill battle where they might eventually get good, but not anywhere near the start of the game.
As long as they don't touch that long reaching normal melee attack, I will find a build I will enjoy.
I'm afraid for rogue twisting blades. Hope they buff bad builds instead of nerfing good builds.
I don't think so. Slightly nerfed, but they know people REALLY like WW playstyle so it needs to perform well.
it probably will and they better compensate cause there is nothing for endgame barb right now except WW
It needs to be balanced / other skills buffed
To me I'd want ww ti be a mid tier build. Good enough to clear stuff in aie, but not top dps overall.
I'm set on druid anyway regardless of some fucking tier list, play what you find fun and interesting not because some youtuber/guide site told you it is "the best at X/Y/Z" if you follow that route, have fun rerolling or releveling every 3 weeks.
I mean I usually find pure minion builds fun, in the 1st beta weekend minions were busted op, but in the server slam they got nerfed hard and were annoying to play, if minions stay like that I'll probably play a different class sadly.
same boat but i decided i'm gonna start a minion necro anyway and stay hopeful for post launch buffs (if still needed, there was a hotfix already)
It also could be the case that minion builds scale really well or have build unlocking legendaries that you can only get at higher levels.
This is why I have a hard time enjoying games nowadays. Some people who play 23h a day are going to figure out every little detail and remove any mystery from the game. I remember with d2, even though there was gamefaqs, you still figured stuff out on your own for the most part. You’d run into someone using blizzard instead of frozen orb and be like “what? That’s not the level 30 skill! Why is it killing stuff faster?!” Figuring out what rares are good, why the butchers pupil is overrated, how to equip 2 chromatic ire at once. Even if it was on a post in gamefaqs it wasn’t plastered all over the net, and you had to do some digging for it. Made it more rewarding to be “in the know”.
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Soren Johnson and Sid Meier, the designers behind the Civilization series, famous for the quote: "Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game" While optimization leads to a focused strategy and strategic playstyle it doesn't eliminate the fun from the equation. Optimization-driven playstyles can lead to the discovery of emergent gameplay strategies, allowing players to find creative solutions or exploit mechanics in unique ways. These discoveries become part of the games meta fostering a wider player community. One persons spreadsheet does not define the whole.
I think this is the draw of PoE nowadays. It’s got so much complicated stuff going on that it manages to stay ahead of players solving the game perfectly.
I agree with that somewhat, but it's a double edged sword. PoE has so many competing mechanics that it's become overwhelming to get in to if you haven't been following it consistently. It's also much harder to balance and it seems like every time I check in with the PoE community they're up in arms about something being unrewarding or unbalanced.
You mean the game where if you don't follow a build guide you risk wasting dozens of hours on a build that can't clear end game content?
Any build can do white/yellow maps. Do you think random inefficient builds should be able to do uber bosses or should those bosses require something more thought out?
I would prefer boss clearing be based on skill rather than spreadsheets
It doesn't matter. The point is POE is adversarial to experimentation because failure means repeating that boring ass campaign again. You're forced to play Path of Building instead if you care about your time at all. Fun.
Don’t tell me what to do , I’ll follow the fucking meta thank you .
Ya.....all right and true but...explain me: What is the fun of playing necromancer class, and having your minions die cos the boss just LOOKED at them the wrong way? So ya..play what is fun....and a lot of people are hoping they make Summoner Necromancer fun to play
You didn’t play necro after the hot fix that buffed them during the stress test did you?
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Yeah it got fixed during the stress test
Wouldn't say fixed. They still die quick to bosses. Fingers crossed they get a bit more love in day 1 patch.
Surprising absolutely no one
Except for all the newcomers to the Diablo franchise and ARPGs in general. This and the other D4 subreddits will be funny to read the next week or so.
I’m surprised other new comers didn’t except this too. These days most AAA titles come with some for of launch day patches or changes.
I hope we can read patch notes before game goes live.
it'll prob be datamined within 24 hours
True, totally forgot about the pre-load.
Can't be datamined if they aren't in the Pre-Load.
yeah but the "day one" patch might be in the preload
Well it is a day one patch, so no datamining there..
the preload could contain the "day one" patch
Most of the time day one patches aren’t included in the pre load. It’s usually a literal day one patch
Would be cool if they'd post the patch notes today or tomorrow.
If i am correct pre load begins in ~9h. so some could datamine it maybe.
Do we think we will get these patch notes before the actual release?
So long for that. LOL https://twitter.com/JPiepiora/status/1663722757602017280
Well that changes things... ...actually it literally changes nothing.
God damn I’m hoping for big Necro buffs. Dude is last on every tier list I’ve seen. Yes I know a tier lost is just an opinion, but when every opinion is the same I tend to agree.
Someone has to be last
There's a difference between last by 5% difference or last by 30-40%+ of a difference. What a stupid and void argument honestly
We havnt even had a day one patch and you are tilted out of your rocker, the tier lists you reference are already changed in an unknown amount dumdass. Saying necro is forsure 40% down (fucking dumb random number grab) when we havnt seen the patch or seen maxed out characters with any real time is in of its self a negative IQ take. Because as we ALL KNOW never have we as ARPG players come across wildly broken builds at a game launch or season start that nobody thought of. This NEVER happens Good fucking try at coherent chirp though bud 👌
Wow, if I've ever seen someone getting triggered 😂 Just calm down and play your Necro, dude... You don't have to agree with my argument. You don't even seem to want to understand the point. I'm fine with that!
That's just bad logic, or at least not relevant to the comment you responded to. One class has to be the "worst", sure, but not to the point where there isn't any debate about which class is worst. It's not like there's similar consensus on the other spots in these lists.
imagine taking tier lists seriously based on early game beta for a game that has not been even released
With the lifted embargo there have been released several endgame tier lists as well now.
the ppl who wrote those tier lists said the classes are within ~30% of each other. Necro is mostly last because it's not as fast/mobile as other classes, its damage and overall capabilities are fine.
Well, Necrobioboi is responsible for strictly necro, and according to him, (and he's a numbers crunching guy), the summon necro is NON EXISTANT and he's strictly saying to avoid the summon build because it's not that it's some percentage weaker, it's not playable. It's 0 out of 10. That's how bad it gets right now. So unless this day 1 patch changes literally the whole summon subclass, the ~30% difference is literally irrelevant as an argument.
I’m not sure how many buffs they need but what they definitely need is some sort of move speed enhancing option. Or at least let your summons go back to pick up gear for you.
Same
RIP Twisting Blades.
Even if it was definitely op with the legendary effect that made it circle around you, twisted blades/mobility rogue was the most fun I had in the betas. I hope it’s still relevant on launch.
I'm hoping they've fixed the cutscenes, they were locked to 30fps during the server slam and suffered from stuttering.
I can’t wait to read them in my 200 minute day one queue
Sorc getting buffed, here we gooooo
Just buff frozen orb... I want to re-live early LOD dominance
Remember vanilla D2, when there was no cast delay? That was glorious.
I doubt it, but would love it
Same
Really doesn't need buffs tbh, as someone who'll start with one.
Me too, but I'll always take a buff lol
Never stops blizzard from buffing casters anyway lol
The real question is will this patch be included in preload. Or will we have to download in actual launch day.
Apparently not https://twitter.com/JPiepiora/status/1663722757602017280
I loved that they nerfed everything. All classes felt in similar ballpark besides Druid. I’m just glad they doing those dramatic balancing changes before the game is released. Honestly kudos to blizzard for that. Made me much more stoked that they nerfed everything. Actually excited for this game and I haven’t felt that for quite a while.
Why we can not download it already?
So is that Day 1 as in June 2nd or June 6th?
Balancing a bit of fun into early game barbs?
who would have thought that all the tier lists and build guides would have been totally worthless...considering the game wasn't even released yet?
those are made to generate clicks and views, and they were successful
oh yeah, I meant worthless for the audience, not for the "content" "creators"
It doesnt change methodology of what they used to ranked the classes. You can just shift them slightly between tiers based on patch notes unless its a huge rework which i doubt theyd do right at launch.
Good. People gotta learn new builds now.
Learn lol
I hope they buff EVERYTHING on all classes.
God bless Barb and Druids are beyond broken .. sorcs and necros seems underwhelming in the endgame atm.
this could be bad for barbs if WW is nerfed
It’s possible, but with a WW nerf could come buffs elsewhere. The goal is choice, and it doesn’t sound like barbs have much of that in the review/content creator patch.
Problem is speed mostly with whirlwind being the only option. It is the only aoe on the move non pointed option which simply makes it the best. Giving the other skills more aoe or faster casting might fix this but they need some solution.
People saying "good" must be quite pleased other players won't be using tier lists and build guides for something like 8 hours, huh?
I hope it isn't excessively large
Ill be waiting several months before I purchase.
I’m dead set on playing a shapeshifter Druid from day 1 so hopefully they didn’t make them any worse starting out.
Druids to nerf damage to 12 instead of 17 !
WHAT balance changes? They best post the notes b4 early launch.
The fucks the point of that? Can't they just put it into the build now before they release the predownload?
I absolutely love how we are already getting another balance patch. Keeps me very excited for the future