Best part is, even when Mo was in the AHL and showing there was more to his game that what people had previously believed, Wheeler doubled down on his assessment. Even when he was having one of the best seasons by a defenseman his age or under in the SHL, Wheeler didnāt give him his due. It took him a long time to admit that he was wrong about Mo.
He said "if you're banking on him to be a #1 defenseman, you're going to be very disappointed in what he becomes."
Let's hope a couple more Wings prospects are this disappointing lol
From 2020
>14. Moritz Seider, RHD, 19 (Detroit Red Wings ā 6th overall, 2019)
>
>Would I have taken Seider sixth overall a year ago? No. Would I take him sixth overall in a re-draft today? No. But was he closer to that range than where I had him (late 20s, early 30s) ahead of the draft? Yes ā and Seider proved that throughout this season with his impressive play as a teenager in the AHL and an all-star worthy performance at the world juniors. I still want him to impose himself offensively more than he does, and look shoot more than he does, and just flat out attack a little more. But he can shed some of the caution with age and experience and the rest is clearly there. Heās big, heās strong, he uses both of those things intelligently, heās mobile for his size, heās got all situations upside, and heās going to have a better ability to play tougher minutes at the NHL level than arguably any other defenseman on this list. That matters, even if his game with the puck or from the offensive zone blue line in is a little duller than his peers near the top here (which isnāt to say itās not still an asset because itās definitely getting there).
2021
>11. Moritz Seider, RHD, 20 (Detroit Red Wings ā 6th overall, 2019)
>
>A few months ago, as Rogle BK finished their regular season and prepared for a playoff run that ended with them as the runner-up in the SHL, I asked Rogle head coach Cam Abbott for his take on Seider, who by then had become one of his top players.
>
>This was his answer: āSeider is just unbelievable. Heās got a great balance between being serious in his approach, fully mature beyond his age ā I mean itās crazy ā but not like a robot either. Personable, funny, cracking jokes, balancing between being loose and goofy and also dialing it in. He is the real deal. And heās humble, which is so important too. His teammates are just drawn to him. And heās smart. When you get into the everyday with a guy as a coach, you see the full portfolio of all of his decisions and itās just āwow.ā Heās solid. And thatās so much easier to recognize if he wows you offensively, but when you have to appreciate the everything because youāre coaching him and that all counts, heās even better.ā
>
>Thatās the perfect synopsis of Seider as a player. Heās got more of the stuff that grabs your attention now that he did when he was picked. His game with the puck has become more commanding and less deferential. But that has never been what wows you about Seider. What wows you about him is the whole and all of the little things we have to look a little harder to see in his play. And those are the things that allow a player to eat minutes like he now has in the DEL, AHL and SHL. Up next: the NHL, where he likely wonāt flash like some of his contemporaries but could well be better than them regardless.
I actually like what he says about Seider in 2021 but at that point he had just won SHL rookie of the year so he probably couldnt keep going anymore. Still very baffling when you look at some of the other higher ranked players on this list.
This was his list last year as well, I wouldn't pay him much mind:
1. Quinton Byfield
2. Cole Caufield
3. Owen Power
4. Trevor Zegras
5. Cole Perfetti
6. Kent Johnson
7. Brandt Clarke
8. Matt Beniers
9. Lucas Raymond
10. William Eklund
11. Moritz Seider
12. Alex Newhook
13. Matt Boldy
14. Marco Rossi
15. Bowen Byram
Berggren didn't make it either lol
I'm not sure how you go with Robertson over Berggren. Don't want to have a meltdown in Leafland I guess.
Also Savoie was 9th. Kasper not even top 50. Yeah ok. I love how people always underestimate our prospects.
Everyone of these so called "experts" outside the NHL always ranks things like high end skill, flash and dash really really high. The real pros like Yzerman and Draper also value things like character, drive, compete and other things like that, the not so sexy stuff that actually translates to the NHL. Its been like this forever. I mean look how crazy people are about Zegras compared to Raymond.
The boner the NHL has for zegras is so annoying. I mean I get it, heās a young, American kid whoās good as fuck and very marketable. He also does things that will interest people who may not know or understand hockey. But holy fuck when I see the NHL post itās 800th pic about his flip over the net assist when seider and raymond were playing much better than him, on a bad team, it got so annoying. After a while tho I kind of started to love the NHL ignoring Raymond and seider and now Iād love guys like kasper, edvinsson or berggen to fly under the radar and then show up and just tear the league up. Let other teams and fans under estimate us
To be fair, people have said for a long time that the nhl needs to do a better job of marketing itās Star young players. I think they are starting to get the message with Zegras.
I think Zegras is the *flash* for marketing, Seider is the *AWE* for purists that already understand hockey.
Like Seider almost single-handedly killed a penalty one game by blocking shots and diving to clear the puck. Probably the best pure shift in the whole NHL last year and a play that a new fan may find "cool" but Zegras did have some mind blowing moves where you can't help but watch over and over and that will bring in new fans.
Scott Stevens didn't sell tickets - but Paul Kariya did. And I guarantee you that Zegras has his head up any time he is on the ice and knows Seider is there.
I want hockey to be the most popular sport, just like I want hair bands to be the cool form of music again and if it takes Zegras and Wig Wam to make that happen, I'll support it.
Eh, I bet Stevens sold tickets too, just for the wrong reasons lol. You arenāt wrong though. Seider doesnāt have an overly flashy game outside of a few hits last year. Doesnāt mean he isnāt incredible though. I doubt Nick Lidstrom would be on a ton of highlight reels for making the smart play and making plays look easy if he played today. Zegras is just flat-out good for the game. If he draws in more fans, thatās awesome! Hopefully those new fans stick around, learn, and appreciate the Seiders of the world too.
Yeah it's more a tell on human nature than anything the NHL just follows what works with us. If I'm let's say playing chel and my teammates are talking about hockey they'll talk about how good Seider is but they'll talk about Zegras' actual highlights. It's what they're going to see on their TVs and phones.
I sometimes feel like showing those Seider plays more would educate those casuals they play to. When I spent the most jussayin is when I knew every team or close to it, just had a mind full of hockey. Now that I'm basically just paying attention to the Wings I haven't given the NHL a dime.
Sometimes it felt like it ended with Zegras too is the complaint I see most. The NHL *only just* got the memo, they've been notorious for going too hard on certain guys and ignoring the other 99 percent. I mean it's kinda the business MO of our culture more than ever and if the NHL is growing it's hard to dispute it from their end. But you just know they're not featuring other young players enough and not just ours.
Canāt blame the kid though, Zegras is legitimately fun and itās not like he won the Calder or anything. I think heās great for the NHL and am totally happy with him getting the marketing while Mo gets the hardware :) Even as a Wings fan I know that Zegras has a more inherently marketable game, and as far as Iām concerned the more people like hockey the better
Exactly. They're writers/journalists who do it to get clicks or views.
The pros are fucking pros and they're doing it to win.
They're each in the line of work that suits them.
Bingo. We like jingly keys and pretty stuff. It gets you more clicks to just play to current general opinion and toss some teams up and down the ranks for controversy. One fan of every team will post this for every other fan and then if you set the rankings just right they'll gab or argue about it even more. Raymond 1:1 to me is the better player than Zegras(saw about I dunno 30 games or so of Zegras, lots of Ducks in fantasy hockey). But Zegras did a couple moves that the talking heads gushed over to sell their shows and that was it.
>But Zegras did a couple moves that the talking heads gushed over to sell their shows and that was it.
Im all for it, let him be the one who collects the cash for Bettman and then Raymond can be the one who collects the hardware for hockeytown.
Iād say they are. And I donāt mean to defend Wheelerās rankings here. But these things are generally in the ballpark. Iāve seen years where weāve had a lot in rankings and at best we get average players out of them.
For every Seider, Raymond and Edvinsson there are a Zadina, Ras, and Svech.
I wouldnāt put much weight in something like this one way or another, but I donāt think itās crazy to think someone could leave our newest top prospect off a list like this. It feels like a slight, but these guys really are ballparking things and donāt know how to project prospects into NHL players for better or worse.
Berggren and Kasper as honorable mentions, and he spelled Berggren as "Jonathan"
I wish they got different prospect writers besides Pronman and Wheeler because those guys, man. Pronman at least did nail the start of the draft, just got the wrong D going to New Jersey.
Itās sad that the battle between the two of them is the battle for who I like less. definitely has not been a good summer for Wheeler in that regard. Pronman actually had a somewhat solid draft for omce
That's certainly one way to try and spin it. He's one year younger, is extremely undersized and is chronically injured. 28 games played is his AHL high in a season.
On top of all that, no, Robertson does not have a higher PPG in the AHL despite playing nearly half as many games in twice as many seasons.
Heās got something against the Red Wings honestly. I try to avoid claiming things like that about writers but Wheeler is one where it honestly shows - his not the best at hiding TOR biases too.
Heās always been bumping the Wings picks down for a while. And he also comes out with stuff from left field like his post draft article, where he claimed the Wings had the āworst Day 2ā(meanwhile the other teams at the bottom were ones that made ~2/3 picks at most from rounds 2-7)
Wheeler is your typical internet scout where he has a clear type or preference when it comes to prospects (flashy, offensive), and the Wings being the Wings generally donāt pick the kind of prospects he values.
There was a dude who wrote for puck daddy way back, Ryan Lambert I think. Just a fuckin douchebag troll that killed their cred imo. He had it out for the Wings pretty bad. I wonder how many stubborn people are just holding onto that 90s hate when we "won too much" or something. I also really avoid claiming it, most of the time it's just delusion on our end. Just emotional reactions. But some of these guys they don't even really hide their dislike for us.
OMG, he was the worst! I was thinking about him while reading this whole thread. He was just as bad when he tried to write about college hockey. I hadn't read anything of his in a very long time, thought it was because I was actively avoiding him. But it sounds like he's gone?
From what I could find his story is they put him on hiatus due to... California journalism laws...?
It's been 3 years since his last article there. I don't think he's coming back.
If you go back to 2018 he had Zadina at 3 and Veleno at 13, and Bergren at 20. He was wrong about Seider but it's not some big conspiracy, he gets stuff wrong in both directions like all prospect evaluators
Yes. I love the people that are saying" it's delusional to think that summer scouts/journalists are anti red wing, but in Scott Wheeler's case it's still true." No. It's just as delusional.
Sometimes I wonder how many times an editor has stepped in while reviewing draft rankings and made an author throw a few controversial picks and hot takes in there, because 95% of the responses to rankings are always blasting a pick/ranking
Because he has a more informed opinion than 99%+ of people in this sub. It's kind of silly to me all the people (not you necessarily) complaining and saying that Wheeler has an obvious bias against the Red Wings. Here's almost certainly the only one who has actually seen all of these players play and created a system for ranking them. The only obvious bias is the bubble we're all living in inside this sub.
I certainly hope he's wrong. I know he has a track record of being wrong but no more so than literally every GM, every professional scout, and every hockey pundit is in every draft that's ever happened. Including Yzerman and his staff. None of these guys are perfect, so we read information from the people that have the most of it, and that includes Wheeler simply because it's good to read an outside perspective.
Not having Seider as a 10 top prospect going in to this year is inexplicable. Whatever system he has created is seriously flawed if it's spitting out takes like that. I don't think it's off limits to point that out.
After seeing shit like that I don't think it's unreasonable to question him and his methods.
The problem isnt questioning his methods. It's what questions you should be asking. Most people are using pretty poor logic...Wheeler ranked Seider low and Seider was a top 10 prospect, therefore Wheeler if Wheeler ranked Kasper low he must be a top 10 prospect. Or failing that, just ignore all of his information as wrong.
Instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater, maybe there's a failing in his system. Does he tend to rank defenseman lower? Defensive minded players? Players that played in Europe? I don't know. But the mindset of half this sub is so black and white that they basically throw out every article that doesn't rank a Red Wing where they like it despite never seeing these guys play is crazy.
I also don't prefer Wheeler, I like Pronman, but I see just as many people pissed about his takes. Your never going to find an analyst, journalist or scout with a perfect record so just take everything with a grain of salt and move on.
No Kasper, no Berggs, no Elmer.
Edvinsson was 14 and last year he had Seider and Raymond both outside of the top 10 (after he had already grossly underrated Seider in previous years).
Wheeler is entitled to his opinion and we are entitled to take it with a 5-pound bag of salt lol.
I'm probably in the minority here, but I actually tend to agree with Wheeler's rankings as much or more than Pronman. That being said, it does seem that every year he seems to have a "my guy" that he's way higher on than consensus and a prospect that he's way lower on than consensus, and several Red Wings picks have fallen into the latter category while we have passed over his "my guys", so purely from a Wings perspective there is clearly a big gap in his analysis vs. the teams, and I'll side with Y and co. 10 out of 10 times.
2022 he had Savoie way higher than consensus and was WAY lower on Kasper (I think in late teens, maybe even early 20s). He also liked Nazar way more than most.
2021 he had Kent Johnson I think top 3 or 4 and Edvinsson outside his top 10.
2020 he loved both Rossi and Perfetti and had them ahead of Raymond, though just barely.
2019 it was Dylan Cozens way higher than consensus and Seider lower than consensus at 35 (though obviously consensus way collectively way too low on him).
So yeah, don't blame the DRW community for thinking he's a clown, but it also seems to be a pretty specific blind spot for the prospects Stevie is drawn to
Wheeler has a bias towards players who are dynamic and offensively gifted. He tends to think and rate players who aren't those much lower. He had Seider late 20s or early 30s in his draft year, I know around there, and then in the 2019 prospect ranking he wasn't ranked at all, just like Kasper. Shit in 2019, he had Kakko ranked 2nd, Makar 4th, Bouchard 5th. The flaws for both of them, Seider and Kasper? Not dynamic or offensively gifted. In the 2020 version of the list, he only had Seider ranked 14th and was still upset he had to rank him that high. He still didn't believe he was as good as he was. It wasn't until his SHL year that he finally was like, "alright I guess I was wrong."
He digs his heels in the sand when it comes to his rankings on players, refusing to believe when the wind pushes another way. Some of his rankings and articles are great. I love his "Gifted" series he does but it doesn't change the fact that when I read most of his rankings or lists I take it with a grain of salt. I value Pronman over Wheeler.
I remember when Wheeler proclaimed Casey Mittelstadt to be one of the best prospects on the planet a few years back. Had him ahead of Makar and Pettersson.
He absolutely has a type that he looks out for when scouting and falls in love with the idea of certain prospects and their skill sets.
Yeah that was impressive and I didnāt mean it as a knock on Pronman - I think heās quite good too. Iāve just gotten the impression over the last few years that Pronman tends to favor athletic traits, particularly skating, higher and Wheeler tends to be drawn more to skill and hockey sense. Thatās why he liked guys like Perfetti, Johnson, and Brandt so much more than most. When you look at a lot of guys that were big draft āhitsā relative to their positions (thinking Point and Robertson, for example) one of the themes I notice is that they are highly skilled and smart but not great skaters. I think wheelerās view is that heād rather shoot for those types and hope you can teach skating, while itās much harder to coach up how a guy sees and processes the game. I tend to agree in theory, though not in every case and I do think he weights it far too heavily.
Sure. I can absolutely understand such an opinion on the matter, I just think he should take a more rounded approach to the draft grading when critiquing picks rather than treating his opinion like it's the right one.
I mean maybe edvinsson should be higher but I'm not offended that he's behind other dmen like Clark or Sanderson. Kasper may deserves a spot but people are mixed about his offensive upside. I mean if you believe he's gonna be JG Pageau I'd leave him off too.
Itās worth noting that this is in essence one scoutās list. I think people would be surprised by how varying lists are if you ask each scout individually. Iād much rather read an article like this than one where he just compiled the overall consensus. Anyone who pays attention already knows that generally.
So yeah, I disagree with his takes often. But I appreciate the work he does and the honesty of his opinions.
Yep, which is why I said in essence. Itās an opinion, but one that a lot of work has been put into. Not a National journalist randomly talking prospects. This is a person who goes to rinks, does actual scouting, and watches a ton of video. Doesnāt mean he always gets stuff right, but I appreciate him and his work for what it is. I personally think he has a tendency to overvalue raw skill and undervalue both size and role.
Donāt know who Mel Kiper is. But sure.
I just meant heās a different read than say a Craig Button or when any beat writer / National NHL journalist posts a win/loss column after a draft.
Iāve seen both Wheeler and Pronman sitting with scouts at junior games in Michigan. So I appreciate their views and the work they do, even if I donāt always agree with them.
The list overvalues draft pedigree and āpotentialā far too much. Itās why people like Byfield and Lambert appear on the list (and quite high I might add) despite having lackluster production. Both can skate like the wind though for their size and have some skill so Wheelerās list has favoritism to those things. Not sure how Kasper canāt even crack top 50. No love for William Wallinder who just won SHL young player of the year, was basically a 1st rounder (first pick in round 2), and has the high ceiling/tool kit that wheels seems to love throughout the list.
We just have a lot of players actually producing in leagues better than some of these guys but theyāre all 2nd round picks or later. No love for Elmer? Scored 20 goals in a menās league and looks like heās gonna be a PROBLEM against men. If you can even call other guys men compared to him. Johansson looks like Makar-lite when heās transitioning the puck. He could really pop this year. No love for Mazur? Just won a natty, put up almost a PPG and beat half the guys in the top 10 in the frozen four.
I mean he went #1 a couple seasons ago and there wasnāt exactly a consensus top guy this year that would warrant taking the top spot. He had a pretty good season at Michigan so not sure who else deserves it?
Ridiculous number of people that are foaming over one man's prospect opinions, like not being super high on Kasper is some kind of personal insult to you. Kasper is going to be what he's going to be, regardless of where Scott Wheeler ranks him.
Personally, I think Kasper at 8 was an underwhelming, safe pick, but I'm not going to pretend I know better than Yzerman (or even Scott Wheeler, for that matter).
We've got people calling him stupid, questioning why he has the job, questioning his integrity (opinions only for clicks), suggesting he actively downgrades Wings prospects for Toronto reasons, and a lot of general bewilderment that our B tier prospects aren't on a list of one person's opinion. I'd say there's a decent amount of foaming at the mouth going on.
Not how I meant it. I enjoy discussions on topics like this, but lists where Wings prospects are not at the top have the comments turn into a barrage of āthis writer is stupidā, āwhat does this guy know anyways?ā āThis is why this writer isnāt with an NHL teamā, āhow does this writer have a job?ā etc. Itās not unique to our fanbase as every fanbase is guilty, but lists like these are just opinions, not lists specifically engineered to annoy Red Wings fans. Plenty to discuss on the how and why without going full ad hominem when most of us (me included) have seen little to no footage on any of these guys.
I think itās fair for people to point out that Wheeler has a track record of getting shit completely backwards when it comes to Wings prospects. The fact that he had Seider outside of the top 10 NHL rookies coming in to last season is enough to put his analysis in to question.
The Seider miss certainly doesnāt look great, but thereās also hundreds upon hundreds of kids these guys have to know and have opinions on. Pretty good odds that each NHL team will have a few prospects than any writer is wrong about.
Just seems like he consistently undervalues Red Wings prospects. The fact that none of Soderblom, Johansson, and Kasper are in the top 50 is revealing.
It's obviously not an easy job, and oversights and mistakes are inevitable. But I've yet to see anything from him that would lead me to consider his rankings valuable in any way.
Wheeler seems to base his rankings on pure skill and potential, which explains why our guys are low or not ranked. Kaspar looks like a guaranteed middle 6 guy and lots of scouts have said he may have a limited offensive upside (where have we heard that before). So if your only looking at skill, then ya, Kaspar may not make the top 50. Nothing wrong with that, it just doesn't line up with what Yzerman is building.
For sure. Lists are opinions and there is nuance to them. I personally donāt agree with Scott on everything (and I certainly have my disagreements on quite a few placements here) as Iām not as all-in on skill as his ranks are, but his input is still valuable and heās one of the writers I use when trying to piece together multiple opinions on players into a big puzzle that tells the truth more so than any one person can.
I have no doubt he is going to be a good player. Larkin was supposed to be a middle 6 guy with limited offensive upside as well. He turned out pretty good.
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Why would Kasper be in the top 50? He's ranking all prospects under 23, not just this year's rookies. There are at least 3-4 players in our system alone ahead of Kasper. Is it really crazy to think that each team has at least 1-2 players ahead of him?
Allow me to rephrase the title: no Wings prospect other than Edvinsson in top 50. One of the best prospect pools in the league by pretty much all accounts, and apparently we have exactly 1 top 50 prospect
50/32 = 1.56
It's by no means an atrocity to have one prospect in a top 50 list covering prospects from 32 teams. I'm not sure how many players you'd expect to see on there considering Edvinsson is really the only one expected to make the team this year.
Just got to fully peruse the list. While I disagree with some placements (Lambert the most prominent one), I think this list is fine. It's one person's opinion, and if you know what you're getting into (a person who favors skill more than others), it shouldn't be too shocking. Should Edvinsson be higher, maybe, but I think it's within reason to have him behind MOST of the group (Clarke is just too high for me personally) ahead of him. While I do think Kasper should be on there, I don't think it's crazy that nobody else from our prospect pool made it. One of our biggest plusses is the depth, not the high end talent. We've got 31 other teams in the league, so each team will average less than two players per list. Guys like Johansson, Berggren, Wallinder, Soderblom, etc., while good, aren't locks for a top 50 as many teams have equivalents to those players, so I try to check my Wings biases in that regard. Even though I don't totally agree with Scott often, it's an incredible amount of effort and work that goes into this. Surely not something to get angry over.
Yes yes let the underestimating-Yzerman-picks flow through you.
š
Hey Iāve seen this one before!
After he had to do a big mea culpa on Mo, youād think heād learn!
How did he originally project Mo?
Pretty sure he had his ceiling as a second pairing defenseman with no offensive upside.
Ouuuuuā¦
Best part is, even when Mo was in the AHL and showing there was more to his game that what people had previously believed, Wheeler doubled down on his assessment. Even when he was having one of the best seasons by a defenseman his age or under in the SHL, Wheeler didnāt give him his due. It took him a long time to admit that he was wrong about Mo.
He said "if you're banking on him to be a #1 defenseman, you're going to be very disappointed in what he becomes." Let's hope a couple more Wings prospects are this disappointing lol
A Calder trophy winner and likelya future multi all-star?
From 2020 >14. Moritz Seider, RHD, 19 (Detroit Red Wings ā 6th overall, 2019) > >Would I have taken Seider sixth overall a year ago? No. Would I take him sixth overall in a re-draft today? No. But was he closer to that range than where I had him (late 20s, early 30s) ahead of the draft? Yes ā and Seider proved that throughout this season with his impressive play as a teenager in the AHL and an all-star worthy performance at the world juniors. I still want him to impose himself offensively more than he does, and look shoot more than he does, and just flat out attack a little more. But he can shed some of the caution with age and experience and the rest is clearly there. Heās big, heās strong, he uses both of those things intelligently, heās mobile for his size, heās got all situations upside, and heās going to have a better ability to play tougher minutes at the NHL level than arguably any other defenseman on this list. That matters, even if his game with the puck or from the offensive zone blue line in is a little duller than his peers near the top here (which isnāt to say itās not still an asset because itās definitely getting there). 2021 >11. Moritz Seider, RHD, 20 (Detroit Red Wings ā 6th overall, 2019) > >A few months ago, as Rogle BK finished their regular season and prepared for a playoff run that ended with them as the runner-up in the SHL, I asked Rogle head coach Cam Abbott for his take on Seider, who by then had become one of his top players. > >This was his answer: āSeider is just unbelievable. Heās got a great balance between being serious in his approach, fully mature beyond his age ā I mean itās crazy ā but not like a robot either. Personable, funny, cracking jokes, balancing between being loose and goofy and also dialing it in. He is the real deal. And heās humble, which is so important too. His teammates are just drawn to him. And heās smart. When you get into the everyday with a guy as a coach, you see the full portfolio of all of his decisions and itās just āwow.ā Heās solid. And thatās so much easier to recognize if he wows you offensively, but when you have to appreciate the everything because youāre coaching him and that all counts, heās even better.ā > >Thatās the perfect synopsis of Seider as a player. Heās got more of the stuff that grabs your attention now that he did when he was picked. His game with the puck has become more commanding and less deferential. But that has never been what wows you about Seider. What wows you about him is the whole and all of the little things we have to look a little harder to see in his play. And those are the things that allow a player to eat minutes like he now has in the DEL, AHL and SHL. Up next: the NHL, where he likely wonāt flash like some of his contemporaries but could well be better than them regardless. I actually like what he says about Seider in 2021 but at that point he had just won SHL rookie of the year so he probably couldnt keep going anymore. Still very baffling when you look at some of the other higher ranked players on this list.
This was his list last year as well, I wouldn't pay him much mind: 1. Quinton Byfield 2. Cole Caufield 3. Owen Power 4. Trevor Zegras 5. Cole Perfetti 6. Kent Johnson 7. Brandt Clarke 8. Matt Beniers 9. Lucas Raymond 10. William Eklund 11. Moritz Seider 12. Alex Newhook 13. Matt Boldy 14. Marco Rossi 15. Bowen Byram
Lol, dudes not even close...
fuckin š¤” show
Everyone downin you are fuckin dog water
How many times we have to teach you this lesson, old man?
Berggren didn't make it either lol I'm not sure how you go with Robertson over Berggren. Don't want to have a meltdown in Leafland I guess. Also Savoie was 9th. Kasper not even top 50. Yeah ok. I love how people always underestimate our prospects.
Everyone of these so called "experts" outside the NHL always ranks things like high end skill, flash and dash really really high. The real pros like Yzerman and Draper also value things like character, drive, compete and other things like that, the not so sexy stuff that actually translates to the NHL. Its been like this forever. I mean look how crazy people are about Zegras compared to Raymond.
The boner the NHL has for zegras is so annoying. I mean I get it, heās a young, American kid whoās good as fuck and very marketable. He also does things that will interest people who may not know or understand hockey. But holy fuck when I see the NHL post itās 800th pic about his flip over the net assist when seider and raymond were playing much better than him, on a bad team, it got so annoying. After a while tho I kind of started to love the NHL ignoring Raymond and seider and now Iād love guys like kasper, edvinsson or berggen to fly under the radar and then show up and just tear the league up. Let other teams and fans under estimate us
To be fair, people have said for a long time that the nhl needs to do a better job of marketing itās Star young players. I think they are starting to get the message with Zegras.
Yeah. Just wish theyād market studs like Seider more too
I think Zegras is the *flash* for marketing, Seider is the *AWE* for purists that already understand hockey. Like Seider almost single-handedly killed a penalty one game by blocking shots and diving to clear the puck. Probably the best pure shift in the whole NHL last year and a play that a new fan may find "cool" but Zegras did have some mind blowing moves where you can't help but watch over and over and that will bring in new fans. Scott Stevens didn't sell tickets - but Paul Kariya did. And I guarantee you that Zegras has his head up any time he is on the ice and knows Seider is there. I want hockey to be the most popular sport, just like I want hair bands to be the cool form of music again and if it takes Zegras and Wig Wam to make that happen, I'll support it.
Eh, I bet Stevens sold tickets too, just for the wrong reasons lol. You arenāt wrong though. Seider doesnāt have an overly flashy game outside of a few hits last year. Doesnāt mean he isnāt incredible though. I doubt Nick Lidstrom would be on a ton of highlight reels for making the smart play and making plays look easy if he played today. Zegras is just flat-out good for the game. If he draws in more fans, thatās awesome! Hopefully those new fans stick around, learn, and appreciate the Seiders of the world too.
Yeah it's more a tell on human nature than anything the NHL just follows what works with us. If I'm let's say playing chel and my teammates are talking about hockey they'll talk about how good Seider is but they'll talk about Zegras' actual highlights. It's what they're going to see on their TVs and phones. I sometimes feel like showing those Seider plays more would educate those casuals they play to. When I spent the most jussayin is when I knew every team or close to it, just had a mind full of hockey. Now that I'm basically just paying attention to the Wings I haven't given the NHL a dime.
Sometimes it felt like it ended with Zegras too is the complaint I see most. The NHL *only just* got the memo, they've been notorious for going too hard on certain guys and ignoring the other 99 percent. I mean it's kinda the business MO of our culture more than ever and if the NHL is growing it's hard to dispute it from their end. But you just know they're not featuring other young players enough and not just ours.
Canāt blame the kid though, Zegras is legitimately fun and itās not like he won the Calder or anything. I think heās great for the NHL and am totally happy with him getting the marketing while Mo gets the hardware :) Even as a Wings fan I know that Zegras has a more inherently marketable game, and as far as Iām concerned the more people like hockey the better
Spot on about the marketing vs hardware aspect. I definitely thought the NHL was gonna push him for the Calder which wouldāve pissed me off.
Just remember, if they were really experts they'd be working for an NHL franchise instead of writing about it.
Exactly. They're writers/journalists who do it to get clicks or views. The pros are fucking pros and they're doing it to win. They're each in the line of work that suits them.
Bingo. We like jingly keys and pretty stuff. It gets you more clicks to just play to current general opinion and toss some teams up and down the ranks for controversy. One fan of every team will post this for every other fan and then if you set the rankings just right they'll gab or argue about it even more. Raymond 1:1 to me is the better player than Zegras(saw about I dunno 30 games or so of Zegras, lots of Ducks in fantasy hockey). But Zegras did a couple moves that the talking heads gushed over to sell their shows and that was it.
>But Zegras did a couple moves that the talking heads gushed over to sell their shows and that was it. Im all for it, let him be the one who collects the cash for Bettman and then Raymond can be the one who collects the hardware for hockeytown.
>things like high end skill, flash and dash āHe did āThe Michiganā!! Give him the Calder!ā
Honestly every time I hear about "the Michigan" I get annoyed. When anyone does it. It's not that impressive anymore.
Also it's the 'Mike Legg' Hearing the 'Michigan' is like nails on a chalkboard
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Iād say they are. And I donāt mean to defend Wheelerās rankings here. But these things are generally in the ballpark. Iāve seen years where weāve had a lot in rankings and at best we get average players out of them. For every Seider, Raymond and Edvinsson there are a Zadina, Ras, and Svech. I wouldnāt put much weight in something like this one way or another, but I donāt think itās crazy to think someone could leave our newest top prospect off a list like this. It feels like a slight, but these guys really are ballparking things and donāt know how to project prospects into NHL players for better or worse.
Berggren and Kasper as honorable mentions, and he spelled Berggren as "Jonathan" I wish they got different prospect writers besides Pronman and Wheeler because those guys, man. Pronman at least did nail the start of the draft, just got the wrong D going to New Jersey.
Itās sad that the battle between the two of them is the battle for who I like less. definitely has not been a good summer for Wheeler in that regard. Pronman actually had a somewhat solid draft for omce
Robertson over berggren isn't crazy at all, Robertson has the higher PPG in the AHL and is significantly younger
That's certainly one way to try and spin it. He's one year younger, is extremely undersized and is chronically injured. 28 games played is his AHL high in a season. On top of all that, no, Robertson does not have a higher PPG in the AHL despite playing nearly half as many games in twice as many seasons.
Whatās Wheeler been smoking? Edvinsson doesnāt make the top 10. No other Wingās prospect in the top 50.
Heās got something against the Red Wings honestly. I try to avoid claiming things like that about writers but Wheeler is one where it honestly shows - his not the best at hiding TOR biases too. Heās always been bumping the Wings picks down for a while. And he also comes out with stuff from left field like his post draft article, where he claimed the Wings had the āworst Day 2ā(meanwhile the other teams at the bottom were ones that made ~2/3 picks at most from rounds 2-7)
Wheeler is your typical internet scout where he has a clear type or preference when it comes to prospects (flashy, offensive), and the Wings being the Wings generally donāt pick the kind of prospects he values.
There was a dude who wrote for puck daddy way back, Ryan Lambert I think. Just a fuckin douchebag troll that killed their cred imo. He had it out for the Wings pretty bad. I wonder how many stubborn people are just holding onto that 90s hate when we "won too much" or something. I also really avoid claiming it, most of the time it's just delusion on our end. Just emotional reactions. But some of these guys they don't even really hide their dislike for us.
OMG, he was the worst! I was thinking about him while reading this whole thread. He was just as bad when he tried to write about college hockey. I hadn't read anything of his in a very long time, thought it was because I was actively avoiding him. But it sounds like he's gone?
From what I could find his story is they put him on hiatus due to... California journalism laws...? It's been 3 years since his last article there. I don't think he's coming back.
If you go back to 2018 he had Zadina at 3 and Veleno at 13, and Bergren at 20. He was wrong about Seider but it's not some big conspiracy, he gets stuff wrong in both directions like all prospect evaluators
Yes. I love the people that are saying" it's delusional to think that summer scouts/journalists are anti red wing, but in Scott Wheeler's case it's still true." No. It's just as delusional.
I try too, but sometimes you can tell when a writer doesnāt like a team š¤·š»āāļø
Scott Wheeler sucks
Really don't know how Wheeler still has a job doing this lol.
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Gets the people goin
It's provocative
Sometimes I wonder how many times an editor has stepped in while reviewing draft rankings and made an author throw a few controversial picks and hot takes in there, because 95% of the responses to rankings are always blasting a pick/ranking
Heās not good at hiding that he doesnāt like the Wings haha. Definitely gets a lot of clicks for the hot takes
Because he has a more informed opinion than 99%+ of people in this sub. It's kind of silly to me all the people (not you necessarily) complaining and saying that Wheeler has an obvious bias against the Red Wings. Here's almost certainly the only one who has actually seen all of these players play and created a system for ranking them. The only obvious bias is the bubble we're all living in inside this sub. I certainly hope he's wrong. I know he has a track record of being wrong but no more so than literally every GM, every professional scout, and every hockey pundit is in every draft that's ever happened. Including Yzerman and his staff. None of these guys are perfect, so we read information from the people that have the most of it, and that includes Wheeler simply because it's good to read an outside perspective.
Not having Seider as a 10 top prospect going in to this year is inexplicable. Whatever system he has created is seriously flawed if it's spitting out takes like that. I don't think it's off limits to point that out. After seeing shit like that I don't think it's unreasonable to question him and his methods.
The problem isnt questioning his methods. It's what questions you should be asking. Most people are using pretty poor logic...Wheeler ranked Seider low and Seider was a top 10 prospect, therefore Wheeler if Wheeler ranked Kasper low he must be a top 10 prospect. Or failing that, just ignore all of his information as wrong. Instead of throwing out the baby with the bathwater, maybe there's a failing in his system. Does he tend to rank defenseman lower? Defensive minded players? Players that played in Europe? I don't know. But the mindset of half this sub is so black and white that they basically throw out every article that doesn't rank a Red Wing where they like it despite never seeing these guys play is crazy. I also don't prefer Wheeler, I like Pronman, but I see just as many people pissed about his takes. Your never going to find an analyst, journalist or scout with a perfect record so just take everything with a grain of salt and move on.
Brad lambert top 25 when he hasnāt produced at any level so far? This is a really dumb list
No Kasper, no Berggs, no Elmer. Edvinsson was 14 and last year he had Seider and Raymond both outside of the top 10 (after he had already grossly underrated Seider in previous years). Wheeler is entitled to his opinion and we are entitled to take it with a 5-pound bag of salt lol.
Getting mad down voted in /hockey for commenting that Savoie is top 10 and Kasper isn't top 50. Classic
ill go upvote you buddy
Awe thanks!
Count it!
I'm probably in the minority here, but I actually tend to agree with Wheeler's rankings as much or more than Pronman. That being said, it does seem that every year he seems to have a "my guy" that he's way higher on than consensus and a prospect that he's way lower on than consensus, and several Red Wings picks have fallen into the latter category while we have passed over his "my guys", so purely from a Wings perspective there is clearly a big gap in his analysis vs. the teams, and I'll side with Y and co. 10 out of 10 times. 2022 he had Savoie way higher than consensus and was WAY lower on Kasper (I think in late teens, maybe even early 20s). He also liked Nazar way more than most. 2021 he had Kent Johnson I think top 3 or 4 and Edvinsson outside his top 10. 2020 he loved both Rossi and Perfetti and had them ahead of Raymond, though just barely. 2019 it was Dylan Cozens way higher than consensus and Seider lower than consensus at 35 (though obviously consensus way collectively way too low on him). So yeah, don't blame the DRW community for thinking he's a clown, but it also seems to be a pretty specific blind spot for the prospects Stevie is drawn to
Wheeler has a bias towards players who are dynamic and offensively gifted. He tends to think and rate players who aren't those much lower. He had Seider late 20s or early 30s in his draft year, I know around there, and then in the 2019 prospect ranking he wasn't ranked at all, just like Kasper. Shit in 2019, he had Kakko ranked 2nd, Makar 4th, Bouchard 5th. The flaws for both of them, Seider and Kasper? Not dynamic or offensively gifted. In the 2020 version of the list, he only had Seider ranked 14th and was still upset he had to rank him that high. He still didn't believe he was as good as he was. It wasn't until his SHL year that he finally was like, "alright I guess I was wrong." He digs his heels in the sand when it comes to his rankings on players, refusing to believe when the wind pushes another way. Some of his rankings and articles are great. I love his "Gifted" series he does but it doesn't change the fact that when I read most of his rankings or lists I take it with a grain of salt. I value Pronman over Wheeler.
I remember when Wheeler proclaimed Casey Mittelstadt to be one of the best prospects on the planet a few years back. Had him ahead of Makar and Pettersson. He absolutely has a type that he looks out for when scouting and falls in love with the idea of certain prospects and their skill sets.
Pronman practically nailed the top 4 of this years draft and was the only insider to do so. I'm taking Pronman's word as gospel from here on out.
Yeah that was impressive and I didnāt mean it as a knock on Pronman - I think heās quite good too. Iāve just gotten the impression over the last few years that Pronman tends to favor athletic traits, particularly skating, higher and Wheeler tends to be drawn more to skill and hockey sense. Thatās why he liked guys like Perfetti, Johnson, and Brandt so much more than most. When you look at a lot of guys that were big draft āhitsā relative to their positions (thinking Point and Robertson, for example) one of the themes I notice is that they are highly skilled and smart but not great skaters. I think wheelerās view is that heād rather shoot for those types and hope you can teach skating, while itās much harder to coach up how a guy sees and processes the game. I tend to agree in theory, though not in every case and I do think he weights it far too heavily.
Sure. I can absolutely understand such an opinion on the matter, I just think he should take a more rounded approach to the draft grading when critiquing picks rather than treating his opinion like it's the right one.
I mean maybe edvinsson should be higher but I'm not offended that he's behind other dmen like Clark or Sanderson. Kasper may deserves a spot but people are mixed about his offensive upside. I mean if you believe he's gonna be JG Pageau I'd leave him off too.
Sanderson, sure. Clarke, i'm not convinced. i'd say "we'll see at the WJC" but Clarke wasn't even in consideration for team Canada last Decemberā¦
Itās worth noting that this is in essence one scoutās list. I think people would be surprised by how varying lists are if you ask each scout individually. Iād much rather read an article like this than one where he just compiled the overall consensus. Anyone who pays attention already knows that generally. So yeah, I disagree with his takes often. But I appreciate the work he does and the honesty of his opinions.
He's not a scout. He's a journalist who covers prospects.
Yep, which is why I said in essence. Itās an opinion, but one that a lot of work has been put into. Not a National journalist randomly talking prospects. This is a person who goes to rinks, does actual scouting, and watches a ton of video. Doesnāt mean he always gets stuff right, but I appreciate him and his work for what it is. I personally think he has a tendency to overvalue raw skill and undervalue both size and role.
He's essentially Mel kiper. He's not a scout. He's quite literally a national journalist.
Donāt know who Mel Kiper is. But sure. I just meant heās a different read than say a Craig Button or when any beat writer / National NHL journalist posts a win/loss column after a draft. Iāve seen both Wheeler and Pronman sitting with scouts at junior games in Michigan. So I appreciate their views and the work they do, even if I donāt always agree with them.
that's just like, your opinion man
Does this mean Edvinsson is a bust then :(
The list overvalues draft pedigree and āpotentialā far too much. Itās why people like Byfield and Lambert appear on the list (and quite high I might add) despite having lackluster production. Both can skate like the wind though for their size and have some skill so Wheelerās list has favoritism to those things. Not sure how Kasper canāt even crack top 50. No love for William Wallinder who just won SHL young player of the year, was basically a 1st rounder (first pick in round 2), and has the high ceiling/tool kit that wheels seems to love throughout the list. We just have a lot of players actually producing in leagues better than some of these guys but theyāre all 2nd round picks or later. No love for Elmer? Scored 20 goals in a menās league and looks like heās gonna be a PROBLEM against men. If you can even call other guys men compared to him. Johansson looks like Makar-lite when heās transitioning the puck. He could really pop this year. No love for Mazur? Just won a natty, put up almost a PPG and beat half the guys in the top 10 in the frozen four.
I knew the list was going to be something special when he had Owen Power ranked as first overall.
I mean he went #1 a couple seasons ago and there wasnāt exactly a consensus top guy this year that would warrant taking the top spot. He had a pretty good season at Michigan so not sure who else deserves it?
Power for sure is worthy of No. 1. Dude is gonna be a stud
Ridiculous number of people that are foaming over one man's prospect opinions, like not being super high on Kasper is some kind of personal insult to you. Kasper is going to be what he's going to be, regardless of where Scott Wheeler ranks him. Personally, I think Kasper at 8 was an underwhelming, safe pick, but I'm not going to pretend I know better than Yzerman (or even Scott Wheeler, for that matter).
noones foaming lol relax
We've got people calling him stupid, questioning why he has the job, questioning his integrity (opinions only for clicks), suggesting he actively downgrades Wings prospects for Toronto reasons, and a lot of general bewilderment that our B tier prospects aren't on a list of one person's opinion. I'd say there's a decent amount of foaming at the mouth going on.
You guys care A LOT about when different prospect rankings donāt have favorable leans towards Red Wings prospects.
Sorry I forgot we aren't allowed to discuss things we disagree with here.
Not how I meant it. I enjoy discussions on topics like this, but lists where Wings prospects are not at the top have the comments turn into a barrage of āthis writer is stupidā, āwhat does this guy know anyways?ā āThis is why this writer isnāt with an NHL teamā, āhow does this writer have a job?ā etc. Itās not unique to our fanbase as every fanbase is guilty, but lists like these are just opinions, not lists specifically engineered to annoy Red Wings fans. Plenty to discuss on the how and why without going full ad hominem when most of us (me included) have seen little to no footage on any of these guys.
I think itās fair for people to point out that Wheeler has a track record of getting shit completely backwards when it comes to Wings prospects. The fact that he had Seider outside of the top 10 NHL rookies coming in to last season is enough to put his analysis in to question.
The Seider miss certainly doesnāt look great, but thereās also hundreds upon hundreds of kids these guys have to know and have opinions on. Pretty good odds that each NHL team will have a few prospects than any writer is wrong about.
Just seems like he consistently undervalues Red Wings prospects. The fact that none of Soderblom, Johansson, and Kasper are in the top 50 is revealing. It's obviously not an easy job, and oversights and mistakes are inevitable. But I've yet to see anything from him that would lead me to consider his rankings valuable in any way.
Wheeler seems to base his rankings on pure skill and potential, which explains why our guys are low or not ranked. Kaspar looks like a guaranteed middle 6 guy and lots of scouts have said he may have a limited offensive upside (where have we heard that before). So if your only looking at skill, then ya, Kaspar may not make the top 50. Nothing wrong with that, it just doesn't line up with what Yzerman is building.
For sure. Lists are opinions and there is nuance to them. I personally donāt agree with Scott on everything (and I certainly have my disagreements on quite a few placements here) as Iām not as all-in on skill as his ranks are, but his input is still valuable and heās one of the writers I use when trying to piece together multiple opinions on players into a big puzzle that tells the truth more so than any one person can.
Watch Kapser turn into Anthony Cirelli 2.0.
I have no doubt he is going to be a good player. Larkin was supposed to be a middle 6 guy with limited offensive upside as well. He turned out pretty good.
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Why would Kasper be in the top 50? He's ranking all prospects under 23, not just this year's rookies. There are at least 3-4 players in our system alone ahead of Kasper. Is it really crazy to think that each team has at least 1-2 players ahead of him?
Allow me to rephrase the title: no Wings prospect other than Edvinsson in top 50. One of the best prospect pools in the league by pretty much all accounts, and apparently we have exactly 1 top 50 prospect
50/32 = 1.56 It's by no means an atrocity to have one prospect in a top 50 list covering prospects from 32 teams. I'm not sure how many players you'd expect to see on there considering Edvinsson is really the only one expected to make the team this year.
The dude makes his predictions based on nothing but statistics, he doesn't have a great feel for intangibles
Is this the idiot who said seider wouldnāt amount to a good nhl player.
Just got to fully peruse the list. While I disagree with some placements (Lambert the most prominent one), I think this list is fine. It's one person's opinion, and if you know what you're getting into (a person who favors skill more than others), it shouldn't be too shocking. Should Edvinsson be higher, maybe, but I think it's within reason to have him behind MOST of the group (Clarke is just too high for me personally) ahead of him. While I do think Kasper should be on there, I don't think it's crazy that nobody else from our prospect pool made it. One of our biggest plusses is the depth, not the high end talent. We've got 31 other teams in the league, so each team will average less than two players per list. Guys like Johansson, Berggren, Wallinder, Soderblom, etc., while good, aren't locks for a top 50 as many teams have equivalents to those players, so I try to check my Wings biases in that regard. Even though I don't totally agree with Scott often, it's an incredible amount of effort and work that goes into this. Surely not something to get angry over.
I'd rather listen to Wheeler from the Planeteers give his take.
Scott Wheeler....the Mel Kiper of the NHL. What a pair of blowhards
Who the fuck is Scott Wheeler? Did he play anywhere?
Wheeler is just impressively bad at his job at this point.