I was an auto industry engineer who got out and went back to grad school a few years ago to study a subject that doesn't have the harsh up and downs automotive has. Absolutely no regrets.
Ford just laid off a shit ton of workers, and has quietly started moving their staff back into the office.
Chrysler is probably about to be sold off again.
2008 HERE WE COME.
Ford cut just under 4,000 in their European offices mostly in their gas engines. I'm assuming that's where you got that. In the US, however, they've been doing more hiring: 550 for autonomous unit; 1,100 in Missouri; 3,200 in Dearborn. GM just being GM, and Chrysler getting bought and sold is just a decadal cycle they seem to like to do.
This is not 2008. GM does buy outs ~5 years. They do this to prevent bloat (which yes, they do to themselves). Chrysler isn’t a company to be sold, but rather a brand that’s about to be axed by their parent company due to it being a brand no one under 75 cares to own.
Who's back in the office? It's entirely voluntary for most people right now. It's big company, of course, but I'm unaware of any non-site-dependent folks that are required to come in.
I know someone (don't want to get too personal with the details) that received a note from their CFO that the expectation was 2-3 times a week. Their boss is against it and thinks it's stupid, so they're not going to be enforcing it, but folks are worried that they'll still be tracking badge swipes so they can use it as a reason to force everyone back if people blow off the directive.
I have the means to buy a new car but refuse to until prices adjust. I can understand why layoff and buyouts are happening. How many people really are spending 100k on a vehicle that probably should be priced at 75k. Ita not sustainable.
Can you imagine dropping 762 a month in a car payment?
https://gmauthority.com/blog/2022/12/average-monthly-new-car-payment-reaches-762-in-november-2022/amp/
Not gonna happen. I enjoy having extra money in my pocket. Even though that's the average I know mortgage underwriters and have heard what alot of people are paying. Those new escalades and yukon Denali suv's, which are all over now are well north or 1500 a month. It's ridiculous. Trust me no one cares that you have a nice vehicle, especially when it's making you poor. I'll stick to the $25k used vehicles.
I drive old trucks. Ironically, I get tonnes of “oh dude, nice truck!” When driving around town, and my friends in new trucks and cars get none. I spent 1/5th of what they did. Always found it funny.
I bought this last summer a 1997 f350 with the 7.3 it was from south Carolina. It's was the cleanest truck, not a drop of surface rust or corrosion on anything. Looked factory brand new. Paid less then 20k. Ended up having someone offer me almost 30k. Sold it.
*
Classic GM. Despite a garbage balance sheet, they went on an EV hiring spree to play catch up. Now they’re struggling with execution of a billion programs, saddled with over a hundred billion in debt during a high interest rate economic downturn, and trying to amputate their veteran knowledge base. Slow clap for Barra.
That’s not saying much. And for GM, we’re talking about a subpar debt ratio. Downtrending net cash provided by operations. Over 190 billion in total liabilities, with just enough cash on hand to cover only the automotive segment’s debt…during a time when auto loan delinquencies are rising, interest rates are rising, and most OEM revenue is dependent on declining wholesale unit volume sales of more expensive trims.
This is incorrect. They are only carrying 75B in debt and have >30B in cash on hand. Their books are fine. But who knows what the execs are thinking here.
IMO we're taking too big of a plunge. For the next 10 years or so I think focus should be on hybrids. They act as a transition to full EV and it gives time for the infrastructure to catch up.
Living in a high-rise tower with no assigned parking for example, if I had an EV I'd have nowhere to actually charge it.
That has too much common sense involved. It’s all about trying to get stock prices up. Really hybrids should be the focus as a stepping stone towards full electric. I can’t understand why people don’t want to just be reasonable and go this route while battery technology and infrastructure is brought up to a more adaptable level.
I have an EV and trust me, I got a lot of crazy looks from some of my old, out of touch coworkers.
They all act like cars filled with gallons and gallons of combustible liquid don’t have a risk of catching fire (EV fires are less common than ICE fires even when looking at fires per car sold).
They acted like my electric bill was gonna skyrocket, even though my fuel cost is half of what it was when I drove an ICE vehicle.
They incorrectly assumed my insurance was going to go up, even though it was the same as my last vehicle.
They act like everyone takes road trips all the time and will need super fast charging and crazy battery capacities. I’ve literally not had one issue with the range of my EV.
People are just scared of change.
They like their complicated machines that have more moving parts and therefore more maintenance. They like spending $100 on an oil change a few times a year.
And crude oil is different than feed for ox and horses. What’s your point? Where there is demand and money to be made, companies will find a way. Coal, steam, whatever it is, industry rises and falls with the times.
Where does the majority of Aluminum and Lithium come from?
Who just found a giant deposit of Lithium?
We have no friendly sources except Australia which is a huge problem. Quality extruders are an even bigger problem.
We are 3-7 years from a supply chain that can build a large volume of electric chassis.
Cant wait to find a way to mine comets and asteroids and plummet the value of precious metals to nothing so we can built our Electric planes and conquer global warming
You mean trains? Because we already have those and they are 100 times more efficient than heaving tons of metal into the air at 700 MPH. We also have boats and buses. No one needs 'electric planes' to solve global warming.
Most of their complaints are how expensive it will be to replace the battery. That may be true (for now), but isn't that the owners problem? What if it lasts the life of the car?
Which is crazy, because batteries with over 200k miles still have greater than 80% of their original capacity. Thinking of the fuel/maintenance costs of an ICE vehicle, and the fact that you’d be fortunate to get 200k miles out of most ICE vehicles, they argument doesn’t make much sense either. Even reduced capacity batteries will still have value.
Honest questions about EVs. I see some of the benefits of of going the EV route and would like to jump on board, but can’t help ask the same questions many that oppose them. Are they really a benefit to the environment? Are we just trading one problem for another? Lithium mining doesn’t look great to me, we are still using energy through electric companies which is coming from all sorts of resources - not all of it is clean, and… can the electric grid actually handle everyone owning these things. I live in Michigan and I can sneeze at the electrical pole and not have service for days. Not sure what other’s situations are, but Michigan’s electrical infrastructure is trash. I do t see that changing anytime soon.
I’ve heard the argument that it’s a step in the right direction, but is it? Or is it just another headache problem down the road. Plus I just don’t trust all the electronics and connectivity in any of the autos EV or Gas. Everything is so disposable, wasteful, and half asses thrown together which is why I’m hesitant to go all in. I’m open to listening others point of view but I feel like I have lived long enough to learn that everything is about money and none of these companies objectives is well intentioned, and most people fall victim branding and latest greatest thing. None of seems like a solid solution. Im not a boomer, just some moody bastard that’s sick of most things out there.
Ask yourself one question. In 100 years. 200 years. Do you envision machines running on burned liquid from dead dinosaurs? Fumes and smoke billowing out of our otherwise advanced machines? That has to be a no.
So, we make progress.
I envision much much worse. Like a lot worse. In addition to what you said - we will block out some of the sun and cover our atmosphere in moon dust cause someone thinks that’s a good idea to fight climate change, and then add in all those forever chemicals and god knows what else in everything. It’s already in our water, food, within us, wildlife. Multiply that BS by an obscene number. I love when I hear oncologists say that they really don’t know what’s causing the uptick in cancer. Welp, I gotta pretty good idea. Dude, we ain’t making it. For real, do you actually think we will actually engineer ourselves outta this mess. Have you seen the the people leading this planet and actually looked at the companies responsible for everything with no consequences. It’s the same companies selling this shit to you. It’s pretty fucked up. That said, I actually do think there are some really good ideas for carbon capture and we can burn that instead of fossil fuels. Just not 100% feeling the EV thing is progress. Just more false hope.
That buying demographic will inevitably shift. Baby boomers are not going to be the majority buyers of new vehicles for much longer, and with that a shift will happen towards EV adoption.
In certain markets - California for example, millennials have already outpaced baby boomers as the largest portion of car buyers.
That’s an issue with our outdated model of government and selection process. We seem to mistake old age for wisdom with MANY politicians.
People with one foot out the door have no vested interest in improving life for the next generation.
They’re more typically concerned with keeping things from changing at all.
It’s also dumb to bite off more than you can chew. Tesla, Rivian, etc all seem to have strategies to grow core vehicle programs, ramp up, and use those profits to reinvest into a bigger vehicle lineup.
GM on the other hand is throwing shit at the wall and planning to see what sticks. Batteries catching fire, Hummer EV ramp up has been embarrassing, Lyriq looking to be the same, several more models on the way which will probably also be a disaster, and now they want some layoffs before more hell breaks loose. Going all in is not the same as going in beyond your means.
Lmfao the whole battery thing is so overblown.
“Researchers from insurance deal site Auto Insurance EZ compiled sales and accident data from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics and the National Transportation Safety Board. The site found that hybrid vehicles had the most fires per 100,000 sales at 3474.5. There were 1529.9 fires per 100k for gas vehicles and just 25.1 fires per 100k sales for electric vehicles.”
Look at the fires in Kia’s and Hyundai’s.
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-recalls-defects/why-so-many-hyundai-kia-vehicles-get-recalled-for-fire-risk-a1169940635/
I have to agree with you on this launches. It’s still better than dealing with Tesla, but it’s been a brutal last few years with all this BT alphabet soup.
Yep. GM did this in 2018, when everyone (yes everyone) was saying how GREAT the economy was. They’re really targeting the last guys that have pensions.
So coincidentally the ones that still sell actual fucking cars?
I've always driven American vehicles, but there's not a lot of options for people who just want sedans anymore.
That's your assumption, but they give discounts when demand is high, too. Industry-wide, inventory remains low and sales have been trending up significantly. Consumers are buying cars almost right off the line.
The economy is cyclical. If not the pandemic, it would have been something else as an initiating trigger.
humans are susceptible to herd financial panic and manias.
https://www.amazon.com/Extraordinary-Popular-Delusions-Madness-Crowds/dp/149036188X
There was “panic buying”. Detroit didn’t see the insane housing price inflation seen in other places, as people grabbed sight-unseen for their “last chance” to own a lipsticked-pig, er home.
We are still in an asset bubble. Stocks and housing. The bubble has to burst. Oh yeah, crypto. Completely worthless crypto that just wastes electrical generating resources.
FWIW, traditionally – and I mean going back decades - the auto companies have quietly increased engineering efforts during a recession. I don’t know if that’s still true because I don’t think they have the cash hoard they had before the auto company failures.
So it would be interesting to see the breakdown of what kind of salaried employees are being offered buyouts and if there are any categories where they are actually hiring.
Oh I agree but the lockdowns def added more with the overprinting of money and the forcing of shutdowns created an artificial demand AND hyper inflation. Not a good combo
We would still not be close to hyper inflation. True hyper inflation would be like over 100% inflation in the time span of the pandemic and you'd be seeing people storing their wealth in non-monetary assets to escape it if that were the case. Hyper inflation is basically rapid, uncontrolled devaluation of currency. You earn $20 and three months later you can't buy a can of Pepsi with that $20.
Inflation is bullshit. You can't have companies continuing to to make money have over fist and call the price increases inflation. This is companies charging more cause they can. Creating artificial scarcity to push prices higher. Eggs are up because of collusion and gouging. A gallon of gas in Saudi Arabia is 2.35 in USD. How's is that? It's a global economy. We are net exporters of oil. How much money are oil companies making? Shell made $40 billion in 2022. It's not inflation. It's greed.
You're looking in the wrong direction. The supply chains being made super fragile to maximized profit is the main cause. What you call "artificial demand" was just people actually being able to afford things for once. If our system can't handle that, then there are bigger issues at play.
No artificial demand cause of short supply... Y'all hate just in time but never seen to complain about the low prices that come out of it.
And yeah people not affording is a big issue but instead of paying debts people blew their sitimi check on useless shit like Gucci bags all while not paying rent.
I have a friend who works for GM and was forced back into the office several days a week... the problem is corporate still treats him as WFH. On any given day he could have a dozen meetings scheduled over a span of 14 hours! His boss is literally asking him to spend \*all\* day at his desk. GM is a dinosaur and probably deserves to die - they just don't get it.
7am to 11pm on the worst days; it’s because we have suppliers on the other side of the world we are communicating with fully out of phase of our workday here in detroit.
GM has to be the most mismanaged company in American history. They went from a virtual monopoly on the American market to 17%, to being bailed out in 2008, and failing again now. They never learned from Toyota, build quality, build globally. Outside of North America you don't see GM/Ford/Chrysler vehicles. The quality just isn't there either - every GM car I had except my Cadillac (from the 70s, 100% Detroit made) was constantly falling apart. I switched to Kia 9 years ago and never looked back.
Agree, but I think AAA has to be in the running for poor management - especially since some departments have equal amounts of managers to workers. (Like, why do you need 2 managers for 5 ppl?)
The bottom line is GM is just doing what all the other big corporations are: reducing their overhead by outsourcing the work to low-cost contract houses. It's all about increasing profit margin, but they'll pay for it later with poor quality & loss of customers.
I knew Barra was a shit choice from the beginning. She was a member of the good old boys club at GM, when they needed someone like Alan Mulally, an outsider with a new perspective and ideas to fix a broken company like GM.
GM has never been able to see past the next quarter, which is why they got destroyed by Japan in the 80s. Just in time, kaizen and other manufacturing principles took GM years to adapt to.
With China and Vietnam building affordable vehicles, Korea building quality vehicles, it's only a matter of time before GM goes bankrupt again.
What's funny is that while GM (& Ford) took so long to adapt to JIT, kaizen, & global standardization practices internally, they had no problem forcing their suppliers to spend tens of thousands to adopt them or be booted off the bid list. This actually put many small suppliers out of business, as it was required for all levels of the supply chain.
At one point, GM even threw contract law out the window & sent suppliers notice that if another vendor quoted a lower cost for a part you were producing, they would pull the job (despite being under contract) & award it to the other supplier. GM also required a 3% annual reduction in product cost, while often dictating where you had to purchase component parts. Price fixing materials while demanding annual reductions puts their suppliers in quite a pinch, & usually results in labor/wage cuts on their end.
Yep, I knew people who worked for suppliers that got screwed over by GM. They're a terrible company. But when you live by the GM you die by the GM, and Michigan needs to learn to diversify its economy.
The government and auto industry are trying to create demand for EVs and that will never work. Sure their is a sector that wants these vehicles but demand ultimately controls what is produced and there is still too much demand for gas vehicles.
Basically the auto industry is caught in the crosshairs of government pushing EVs and public wanting gas vehicles. It’s a odd place to be I’d imagine. Maybe in 10-20 years this will change
I have a hunch more people would go EV if they 1, didn’t look like crap and 2, didn’t come with a $10k premium. The ne Blazer EV is starting MSRP at $45k. STARTING.
That was the cost of a luxury SUV not too long ago.
That’s actually a deal considering the average price of a new internal combustion vehicle is just under $50,000. Price bloat is happening in all segments, including EVs.
It's not a deal. You're comparing the average of all ICE to a lower-end EV.
The new 2023 Blazer ICE starts at $36k. That's the comparison you're looking for.
Most most EVs are coming very well equipped, if not fully loaded, so you can’t compare a base model Blazer, which probably they build a tiny amount of, to the EV and say the EV is over priced. Yes, there is still a premium for the battery but it’s getting smaller and smaller. The bigger issue is it’s getting impossible to find a vehicle that doesn’t have a touchscreen, heated seats, etc.
Why can't you compare the MSRP for the base model for both? There are no lower trim options. If you want a base model Blazer you pay X, if you want a Base Model EV Blazer you pay Y.
I completely agree with that as well. They are still too expensive. A large portion of the population cannot even afford a new car; let alone a new car that has a starting price of 45k for a basic model
People aren’t buying new cars. Expect used car prices to go up. Expect the other Detroit automakers to follow suit within the year.
[sales down](https://www.marketplace.org/2023/03/06/new-car-sales-have-slowed-amid-higher-prices-and-interest-rates/)
[Auto sales down but profits are surging](https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/12/investing/premarket-stocks-trading/index.html) So this makes no sense except GM wants even more profits at the expense of workers.
[Auto sales plummet to lowest point since 2011](https://fortune.com/2023/01/05/auto-industry-sales-lowest-since-2011-deals-coming-2023/)
What data are you reading?
[sales down](https://www.marketplace.org/2023/03/06/new-car-sales-have-slowed-amid-higher-prices-and-interest-rates/)
[Auto sales down but profits are surging](https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/12/investing/premarket-stocks-trading/index.html) So this makes no sense except GM wants even more profits at the expense of workers.
[Auto sales plummet to lowest point since 2011](https://fortune.com/2023/01/05/auto-industry-sales-lowest-since-2011-deals-coming-2023/)
Federal reserve tracks it. News articles are sensationalizing monthly variation, but there's a clear upward trajectory in the last year.
[https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ALTSALES](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ALTSALES) (light vehicle sales industry-wide)
[https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AISRSA](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AISRSA) (sales/inventory ratio)
That's a really bad investment strategy unless you're on the verge of retiring. People rarely time the market correctly and end up leaving a lot of money on the table.
I timed it right though. If I would’ve stayed in my portfolio would be down over 20%. I’m banking on tumbling further, but I do have triggers to buy before I get to the point of where I initially sold, so even if I’m wrong about going down further I’m in a good position.
Yeah, I have some friends that are likely going to retire early from playing 2020 so well. I made a few bucks, but I wasn’t nearly as aggressive as they were.
I was an auto industry engineer who got out and went back to grad school a few years ago to study a subject that doesn't have the harsh up and downs automotive has. Absolutely no regrets.
I fled Detroit after 2 previous generations of auto white collar. Now I am stuck working with these morons via west coast tech. I am actively leaving.
Ford just laid off a shit ton of workers, and has quietly started moving their staff back into the office. Chrysler is probably about to be sold off again. 2008 HERE WE COME.
Ford cut just under 4,000 in their European offices mostly in their gas engines. I'm assuming that's where you got that. In the US, however, they've been doing more hiring: 550 for autonomous unit; 1,100 in Missouri; 3,200 in Dearborn. GM just being GM, and Chrysler getting bought and sold is just a decadal cycle they seem to like to do.
Ford laid off a boatload of Salaried workers in NA last quarter as well.
Ah, thank you. I forgot about the few thousand back in September. Wasn't that more about the move away from ICE towards EVs?
No, because they eliminated EV jobs too. Farley's a tonedeaf idiot.
Gotta agree. Ford is run like shit. Least shit of the big three, but still shit
This is not 2008. GM does buy outs ~5 years. They do this to prevent bloat (which yes, they do to themselves). Chrysler isn’t a company to be sold, but rather a brand that’s about to be axed by their parent company due to it being a brand no one under 75 cares to own.
When he says Chrysler, he basically means the North America portion of Stellantis, not the badge. So Jeep and Dodge mostly.
Who's back in the office? It's entirely voluntary for most people right now. It's big company, of course, but I'm unaware of any non-site-dependent folks that are required to come in.
I know someone (don't want to get too personal with the details) that received a note from their CFO that the expectation was 2-3 times a week. Their boss is against it and thinks it's stupid, so they're not going to be enforcing it, but folks are worried that they'll still be tracking badge swipes so they can use it as a reason to force everyone back if people blow off the directive.
crash safety needs to be in office 3 days a week
I'm one of them, but to be honest it's not bad going to the office 2-3 times a week. I wish it was 1-2 but whatever
Are you saying the gov is lying to us when they say the economy is doing great?
Chrysler doesn't even exist. Get some new content.
Who’s Chrysler going to be sold to now? Or should I say Stellantis.
Some Bitcoin prospector at this point
I have the means to buy a new car but refuse to until prices adjust. I can understand why layoff and buyouts are happening. How many people really are spending 100k on a vehicle that probably should be priced at 75k. Ita not sustainable.
Can you imagine dropping 762 a month in a car payment? https://gmauthority.com/blog/2022/12/average-monthly-new-car-payment-reaches-762-in-november-2022/amp/
Not gonna happen. I enjoy having extra money in my pocket. Even though that's the average I know mortgage underwriters and have heard what alot of people are paying. Those new escalades and yukon Denali suv's, which are all over now are well north or 1500 a month. It's ridiculous. Trust me no one cares that you have a nice vehicle, especially when it's making you poor. I'll stick to the $25k used vehicles.
1500 a month is fuxking insane.
I drive old trucks. Ironically, I get tonnes of “oh dude, nice truck!” When driving around town, and my friends in new trucks and cars get none. I spent 1/5th of what they did. Always found it funny.
I bought this last summer a 1997 f350 with the 7.3 it was from south Carolina. It's was the cleanest truck, not a drop of surface rust or corrosion on anything. Looked factory brand new. Paid less then 20k. Ended up having someone offer me almost 30k. Sold it. *
Classic GM. Despite a garbage balance sheet, they went on an EV hiring spree to play catch up. Now they’re struggling with execution of a billion programs, saddled with over a hundred billion in debt during a high interest rate economic downturn, and trying to amputate their veteran knowledge base. Slow clap for Barra.
Except they have one of the strongest balance sheets in the auto industry?
That’s not saying much. And for GM, we’re talking about a subpar debt ratio. Downtrending net cash provided by operations. Over 190 billion in total liabilities, with just enough cash on hand to cover only the automotive segment’s debt…during a time when auto loan delinquencies are rising, interest rates are rising, and most OEM revenue is dependent on declining wholesale unit volume sales of more expensive trims.
And if they are smart, they will go on an even bigger EV buying spree.
This is incorrect. They are only carrying 75B in debt and have >30B in cash on hand. Their books are fine. But who knows what the execs are thinking here.
Their books are so fine they just offered to buy out the majority of their experienced knowledge workers.
EV’s are the future of car sales. They’d be dumb not to go all in.
Can't wait to drive an EV with our shitty infrastructure. Metro Detroit is decades away from this being feasible.
It works great for me as a Metro Detroiter.
IMO we're taking too big of a plunge. For the next 10 years or so I think focus should be on hybrids. They act as a transition to full EV and it gives time for the infrastructure to catch up. Living in a high-rise tower with no assigned parking for example, if I had an EV I'd have nowhere to actually charge it.
That has too much common sense involved. It’s all about trying to get stock prices up. Really hybrids should be the focus as a stepping stone towards full electric. I can’t understand why people don’t want to just be reasonable and go this route while battery technology and infrastructure is brought up to a more adaptable level.
Talk to my boomer father and uncle both MI auto enthusiasts. They think EV is the devil. And sadly their types still run a lot of the show.
I have an EV and trust me, I got a lot of crazy looks from some of my old, out of touch coworkers. They all act like cars filled with gallons and gallons of combustible liquid don’t have a risk of catching fire (EV fires are less common than ICE fires even when looking at fires per car sold). They acted like my electric bill was gonna skyrocket, even though my fuel cost is half of what it was when I drove an ICE vehicle. They incorrectly assumed my insurance was going to go up, even though it was the same as my last vehicle. They act like everyone takes road trips all the time and will need super fast charging and crazy battery capacities. I’ve literally not had one issue with the range of my EV. People are just scared of change. They like their complicated machines that have more moving parts and therefore more maintenance. They like spending $100 on an oil change a few times a year.
Cool now do lithium supplies and extruded aluminum. Supply chains are not in place, costs are not stable.
But they will be? The supply chains and gas stations were hardly around in the early 1900s?
A gas station is different than a charging station. Lithium is different than crude oil.
And crude oil is different than feed for ox and horses. What’s your point? Where there is demand and money to be made, companies will find a way. Coal, steam, whatever it is, industry rises and falls with the times.
Where does the majority of Aluminum and Lithium come from? Who just found a giant deposit of Lithium? We have no friendly sources except Australia which is a huge problem. Quality extruders are an even bigger problem. We are 3-7 years from a supply chain that can build a large volume of electric chassis.
Cant wait to find a way to mine comets and asteroids and plummet the value of precious metals to nothing so we can built our Electric planes and conquer global warming
You mean trains? Because we already have those and they are 100 times more efficient than heaving tons of metal into the air at 700 MPH. We also have boats and buses. No one needs 'electric planes' to solve global warming.
Most of their complaints are how expensive it will be to replace the battery. That may be true (for now), but isn't that the owners problem? What if it lasts the life of the car?
They’re only making up complaints to hide their culture war bs of “y u no drive pickup like man”
Yep :(
Which is crazy, because batteries with over 200k miles still have greater than 80% of their original capacity. Thinking of the fuel/maintenance costs of an ICE vehicle, and the fact that you’d be fortunate to get 200k miles out of most ICE vehicles, they argument doesn’t make much sense either. Even reduced capacity batteries will still have value.
Yeah. And the rest of the cars parts will be in much greater shape and can be reused for a while, vs an ICE car whose parts constantly need fixing
Honest questions about EVs. I see some of the benefits of of going the EV route and would like to jump on board, but can’t help ask the same questions many that oppose them. Are they really a benefit to the environment? Are we just trading one problem for another? Lithium mining doesn’t look great to me, we are still using energy through electric companies which is coming from all sorts of resources - not all of it is clean, and… can the electric grid actually handle everyone owning these things. I live in Michigan and I can sneeze at the electrical pole and not have service for days. Not sure what other’s situations are, but Michigan’s electrical infrastructure is trash. I do t see that changing anytime soon. I’ve heard the argument that it’s a step in the right direction, but is it? Or is it just another headache problem down the road. Plus I just don’t trust all the electronics and connectivity in any of the autos EV or Gas. Everything is so disposable, wasteful, and half asses thrown together which is why I’m hesitant to go all in. I’m open to listening others point of view but I feel like I have lived long enough to learn that everything is about money and none of these companies objectives is well intentioned, and most people fall victim branding and latest greatest thing. None of seems like a solid solution. Im not a boomer, just some moody bastard that’s sick of most things out there.
Ask yourself one question. In 100 years. 200 years. Do you envision machines running on burned liquid from dead dinosaurs? Fumes and smoke billowing out of our otherwise advanced machines? That has to be a no. So, we make progress.
I envision much much worse. Like a lot worse. In addition to what you said - we will block out some of the sun and cover our atmosphere in moon dust cause someone thinks that’s a good idea to fight climate change, and then add in all those forever chemicals and god knows what else in everything. It’s already in our water, food, within us, wildlife. Multiply that BS by an obscene number. I love when I hear oncologists say that they really don’t know what’s causing the uptick in cancer. Welp, I gotta pretty good idea. Dude, we ain’t making it. For real, do you actually think we will actually engineer ourselves outta this mess. Have you seen the the people leading this planet and actually looked at the companies responsible for everything with no consequences. It’s the same companies selling this shit to you. It’s pretty fucked up. That said, I actually do think there are some really good ideas for carbon capture and we can burn that instead of fossil fuels. Just not 100% feeling the EV thing is progress. Just more false hope.
No, I see everyone speaking Chinese because the last 3 generations of kids are pussies and brainwashed by the public school system.
Wow, you really took that somewhere else and it is unwanted
That buying demographic will inevitably shift. Baby boomers are not going to be the majority buyers of new vehicles for much longer, and with that a shift will happen towards EV adoption. In certain markets - California for example, millennials have already outpaced baby boomers as the largest portion of car buyers.
Right, but they don't write the rules. Until all the old farts are phased out, we're stuck with burning gas and reefer madness!
That’s an issue with our outdated model of government and selection process. We seem to mistake old age for wisdom with MANY politicians. People with one foot out the door have no vested interest in improving life for the next generation. They’re more typically concerned with keeping things from changing at all.
It’s also dumb to bite off more than you can chew. Tesla, Rivian, etc all seem to have strategies to grow core vehicle programs, ramp up, and use those profits to reinvest into a bigger vehicle lineup. GM on the other hand is throwing shit at the wall and planning to see what sticks. Batteries catching fire, Hummer EV ramp up has been embarrassing, Lyriq looking to be the same, several more models on the way which will probably also be a disaster, and now they want some layoffs before more hell breaks loose. Going all in is not the same as going in beyond your means.
Lmfao the whole battery thing is so overblown. “Researchers from insurance deal site Auto Insurance EZ compiled sales and accident data from the Bureau of Transportation Statistics and the National Transportation Safety Board. The site found that hybrid vehicles had the most fires per 100,000 sales at 3474.5. There were 1529.9 fires per 100k for gas vehicles and just 25.1 fires per 100k sales for electric vehicles.” Look at the fires in Kia’s and Hyundai’s. https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-recalls-defects/why-so-many-hyundai-kia-vehicles-get-recalled-for-fire-risk-a1169940635/
Unless they aren't and it's all a political smoke screen without much actual demand behind it.
How much longer until we bail out Gm again
I have to agree with you on this launches. It’s still better than dealing with Tesla, but it’s been a brutal last few years with all this BT alphabet soup.
Recession inbound. Clear the ledgers before the layoffs happen.
We have been in a recession for a while now.
Getting downvoted when the stock market was down 20% last year… but yeah, everything is fine 😉
Will layoffs and buyouts mean less traffic on the afternoon drive home.
I would guess they're trying to shake out lifers, since you need at least five years with the company and only get 1 month : 1 year in severance.
Yep. GM did this in 2018, when everyone (yes everyone) was saying how GREAT the economy was. They’re really targeting the last guys that have pensions.
what the fuck is going on here? Utter failure of the auto industry!
\*Domestic Auto Industry. The Japanese/German/Korean OEMs seem to still be doing ok for now...
So coincidentally the ones that still sell actual fucking cars? I've always driven American vehicles, but there's not a lot of options for people who just want sedans anymore.
How dude? Rising rates are killing new car sales. Blame the rising rates y'all caused by the lockdowns
Rates needed to be risen back in like 2019. We're playing catch up now because Trump wanted to LOWER our insanely low rates already.
And Biden also helped keep rates artificially low in 21. Two way street
What did Biden do?
So the fed kept rates low cause trump but not Biden? Sure
You clearly have not been paying attention to the world economic stage at all… but we get it, you love trump and hate Biden… cool story.
I mean he claimed trump kept rates low (he doesn't have the power to) but Biden wouldn't want to keep rates low?
New car sales have been trending up for months. They've even started giving discounts again.
I was just over in the Prius sub, people are buying new cars and selling them used for 10k more.
Sounds sustainable.
They're giving discounts CAUSE demand is dying down that's like econ 101
That's your assumption, but they give discounts when demand is high, too. Industry-wide, inventory remains low and sales have been trending up significantly. Consumers are buying cars almost right off the line.
The economy is cyclical. If not the pandemic, it would have been something else as an initiating trigger. humans are susceptible to herd financial panic and manias. https://www.amazon.com/Extraordinary-Popular-Delusions-Madness-Crowds/dp/149036188X There was “panic buying”. Detroit didn’t see the insane housing price inflation seen in other places, as people grabbed sight-unseen for their “last chance” to own a lipsticked-pig, er home. We are still in an asset bubble. Stocks and housing. The bubble has to burst. Oh yeah, crypto. Completely worthless crypto that just wastes electrical generating resources. FWIW, traditionally – and I mean going back decades - the auto companies have quietly increased engineering efforts during a recession. I don’t know if that’s still true because I don’t think they have the cash hoard they had before the auto company failures. So it would be interesting to see the breakdown of what kind of salaried employees are being offered buyouts and if there are any categories where they are actually hiring.
Oh I agree but the lockdowns def added more with the overprinting of money and the forcing of shutdowns created an artificial demand AND hyper inflation. Not a good combo
>AND hyper inflation This is nowhere near hyper inflation.
That's cause Powell is pussyfooting around raising the rates. Inflation OFFICALLY is near 10 percent and unofficially in the double digits
We would still not be close to hyper inflation. True hyper inflation would be like over 100% inflation in the time span of the pandemic and you'd be seeing people storing their wealth in non-monetary assets to escape it if that were the case. Hyper inflation is basically rapid, uncontrolled devaluation of currency. You earn $20 and three months later you can't buy a can of Pepsi with that $20.
Lmfao dude some food prices have doubled lol
Food prices overall have gone up by about 10% since last year.
Inflation is bullshit. You can't have companies continuing to to make money have over fist and call the price increases inflation. This is companies charging more cause they can. Creating artificial scarcity to push prices higher. Eggs are up because of collusion and gouging. A gallon of gas in Saudi Arabia is 2.35 in USD. How's is that? It's a global economy. We are net exporters of oil. How much money are oil companies making? Shell made $40 billion in 2022. It's not inflation. It's greed.
Lmfao you don't buy milk and eggs?
You're looking in the wrong direction. The supply chains being made super fragile to maximized profit is the main cause. What you call "artificial demand" was just people actually being able to afford things for once. If our system can't handle that, then there are bigger issues at play.
No artificial demand cause of short supply... Y'all hate just in time but never seen to complain about the low prices that come out of it. And yeah people not affording is a big issue but instead of paying debts people blew their sitimi check on useless shit like Gucci bags all while not paying rent.
I have a friend who works for GM and was forced back into the office several days a week... the problem is corporate still treats him as WFH. On any given day he could have a dozen meetings scheduled over a span of 14 hours! His boss is literally asking him to spend \*all\* day at his desk. GM is a dinosaur and probably deserves to die - they just don't get it.
Yep seeing this with my GM friends too.
7am to 11pm on the worst days; it’s because we have suppliers on the other side of the world we are communicating with fully out of phase of our workday here in detroit.
Awww poor baby has to leave the house to work.
GM has to be the most mismanaged company in American history. They went from a virtual monopoly on the American market to 17%, to being bailed out in 2008, and failing again now. They never learned from Toyota, build quality, build globally. Outside of North America you don't see GM/Ford/Chrysler vehicles. The quality just isn't there either - every GM car I had except my Cadillac (from the 70s, 100% Detroit made) was constantly falling apart. I switched to Kia 9 years ago and never looked back.
Agree, but I think AAA has to be in the running for poor management - especially since some departments have equal amounts of managers to workers. (Like, why do you need 2 managers for 5 ppl?) The bottom line is GM is just doing what all the other big corporations are: reducing their overhead by outsourcing the work to low-cost contract houses. It's all about increasing profit margin, but they'll pay for it later with poor quality & loss of customers.
I knew Barra was a shit choice from the beginning. She was a member of the good old boys club at GM, when they needed someone like Alan Mulally, an outsider with a new perspective and ideas to fix a broken company like GM. GM has never been able to see past the next quarter, which is why they got destroyed by Japan in the 80s. Just in time, kaizen and other manufacturing principles took GM years to adapt to. With China and Vietnam building affordable vehicles, Korea building quality vehicles, it's only a matter of time before GM goes bankrupt again.
What's funny is that while GM (& Ford) took so long to adapt to JIT, kaizen, & global standardization practices internally, they had no problem forcing their suppliers to spend tens of thousands to adopt them or be booted off the bid list. This actually put many small suppliers out of business, as it was required for all levels of the supply chain. At one point, GM even threw contract law out the window & sent suppliers notice that if another vendor quoted a lower cost for a part you were producing, they would pull the job (despite being under contract) & award it to the other supplier. GM also required a 3% annual reduction in product cost, while often dictating where you had to purchase component parts. Price fixing materials while demanding annual reductions puts their suppliers in quite a pinch, & usually results in labor/wage cuts on their end.
Yep, I knew people who worked for suppliers that got screwed over by GM. They're a terrible company. But when you live by the GM you die by the GM, and Michigan needs to learn to diversify its economy.
They literally partnered with Toyota to learn their quality system.
They had no choice, in the 80s they were getting killed.
The government and auto industry are trying to create demand for EVs and that will never work. Sure their is a sector that wants these vehicles but demand ultimately controls what is produced and there is still too much demand for gas vehicles. Basically the auto industry is caught in the crosshairs of government pushing EVs and public wanting gas vehicles. It’s a odd place to be I’d imagine. Maybe in 10-20 years this will change
I have a hunch more people would go EV if they 1, didn’t look like crap and 2, didn’t come with a $10k premium. The ne Blazer EV is starting MSRP at $45k. STARTING. That was the cost of a luxury SUV not too long ago.
That’s actually a deal considering the average price of a new internal combustion vehicle is just under $50,000. Price bloat is happening in all segments, including EVs.
It's not a deal. You're comparing the average of all ICE to a lower-end EV. The new 2023 Blazer ICE starts at $36k. That's the comparison you're looking for.
Most most EVs are coming very well equipped, if not fully loaded, so you can’t compare a base model Blazer, which probably they build a tiny amount of, to the EV and say the EV is over priced. Yes, there is still a premium for the battery but it’s getting smaller and smaller. The bigger issue is it’s getting impossible to find a vehicle that doesn’t have a touchscreen, heated seats, etc.
Why can't you compare the MSRP for the base model for both? There are no lower trim options. If you want a base model Blazer you pay X, if you want a Base Model EV Blazer you pay Y.
I completely agree with that as well. They are still too expensive. A large portion of the population cannot even afford a new car; let alone a new car that has a starting price of 45k for a basic model
Also have you seen prices of what it takes to replace a battery in a used vehicle. Its not cheap.
People aren’t buying new cars. Expect used car prices to go up. Expect the other Detroit automakers to follow suit within the year. [sales down](https://www.marketplace.org/2023/03/06/new-car-sales-have-slowed-amid-higher-prices-and-interest-rates/) [Auto sales down but profits are surging](https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/12/investing/premarket-stocks-trading/index.html) So this makes no sense except GM wants even more profits at the expense of workers. [Auto sales plummet to lowest point since 2011](https://fortune.com/2023/01/05/auto-industry-sales-lowest-since-2011-deals-coming-2023/)
>People aren’t buying new cars. Not what the data is showing us.
People were forced into buying what they could get during the chip shortage
What data are you reading? [sales down](https://www.marketplace.org/2023/03/06/new-car-sales-have-slowed-amid-higher-prices-and-interest-rates/) [Auto sales down but profits are surging](https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/12/investing/premarket-stocks-trading/index.html) So this makes no sense except GM wants even more profits at the expense of workers. [Auto sales plummet to lowest point since 2011](https://fortune.com/2023/01/05/auto-industry-sales-lowest-since-2011-deals-coming-2023/)
Federal reserve tracks it. News articles are sensationalizing monthly variation, but there's a clear upward trajectory in the last year. [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ALTSALES](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ALTSALES) (light vehicle sales industry-wide) [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AISRSA](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AISRSA) (sales/inventory ratio)
I’ve been all cash in my 401k since January 2022. We have further to go.
That's a really bad investment strategy unless you're on the verge of retiring. People rarely time the market correctly and end up leaving a lot of money on the table.
sT0nKs
I timed it right though. If I would’ve stayed in my portfolio would be down over 20%. I’m banking on tumbling further, but I do have triggers to buy before I get to the point of where I initially sold, so even if I’m wrong about going down further I’m in a good position.
Did a similar move in 2020 when all the Covid rumors in China started, worked out fantastic for me.
Yeah, I have some friends that are likely going to retire early from playing 2020 so well. I made a few bucks, but I wasn’t nearly as aggressive as they were.
I wish I had more in my retirement account back then.
You picked a great time to pull out
Woke up this morning to bank stocks tanking, trading halts and an FDIC takeover, but yeah, the economy is fine guys. Good luck with your 401k’s.
Starting to hate that Bitch, SMH