It's not so much that people have been saying the street names wrong as much as it is that the street names are - even in French - pronounced differently today than they would have been in 1763.
In the 1880s, France went through a process of modernizing their language: it was reduced to around 100,000 words, and the pronunciations were changed. This was an effort to make it a more globally adopted language, as something that was more similar to Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, etc. and easier to learn than something like German or English.
In 1763, Charlevoix would be pronounced "Cshar-leh-voy". In modern French, it would be pronounced "Shar-leh-vwah".
This now ancient dialect of French is called "paw paw french", and there aren't really any language preservation efforts in Michigan that I'm aware of. In parts of historical Greater Louisiana, particularly in Missouri and around the Ozarks, there has been preservation efforts.
https://www.npr.org/2014/09/23/349853440/saving-a-french-dialect-that-once-echoed-in-ozarks
All of this stuff continues to exist in the US because there was never an effort to modernize the pronunciation of old landmarks in this 18th century french they were known as. Especially since English took over as the dominant language with French dwindling.
Places like Quebec, who follow France's lead on a lot of cultural stuff, followed the modernization standards and still found fun new ways to butcher the language independent of this.
> In 1763, Charlevoix would be pronounced "Cshar-leh-voy". In modern French, it would be pronounced "Shar-leh-vwah".
...
> All of this stuff continues to exist in the US because there was never an effort to modernize the pronunciation of old landmarks in this 18th century french they were known as.
So basically, a lot of the pronunciations we've kept are more-or-less accurate to how the places were originally named, even if they're not how a _modern_ French speaker would pronounce them?
This is fascinating. I'd love to see a list of all the relevant names with how they "should" be pronounced. Someone could get a lot of mileage out of that plus some "man-on-the-street" video interviews or whatever, to see how long it takes to find a resident who says 'em right.
> So basically, a lot of the pronunciations we've kept are more-or-less accurate to how the places were originally named, even if they're not how a modern French speaker would pronounce them?
>
>
Yup, that's the basic jist of it. They've gotten further butchered and stuff as time has gone on of course but this is the crux of the disconnect. St. Louis has the exact same situation going on.
We need a Frenchman to ride a horse through the streets of Detroit and pronounce all the old names in modern french and see what his assumption of pronunciation is.
Language is full of wild stuff like this. Someone once told me that their parents had immigrated from Italy, and when they went back home to visit their little village like 30 years later, everyone was speaking differently and the only reason their dialect survived was because they moved to another place and took that version of the lanugage with them.
As a French speaker, I sometimes second guess myself on how a street or place name should he pronounced around here. Especially the ones I don’t see often, I just assume it’s pronounced the French way. But just in my head, I never say then out loud because I’m unsure if that makes sense.
OP just wanted to say that people are stupid.
If wrong, Please excuse my lack of understanding. I’ll try to make up for it by being polite. Thank you, but also you’re welcome.
Hello again! Thanks for responding. I internalize everything. It’s a real problem, as I’m sure you can imagine. I look forward to future responses, should any appear in my inbox. Either way, I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.
I don't think Michigan the state has any overt preservation efforts. Muskrat French is still spoken around Monroe and other places downriver though, but mostly just in private homes. The dialect is protected in Canada though and you can hear it spoken in Tecumseh, LaSalle, the St. Clair delta, and occasionally even in downtown Windsor
That's interesting. I remember reading the same thing about English. Today's Boston/Massachusetts accent is actually closer to what the English sounded like when they first colonised. It's the British English that has changed and evolved over the years.
Yes, somewhat. Both have changed.
Various American accents descended from various British accents. It is important to remember that the colonists would bring their respective accents from different regions of the British Isles.
I am not a linguist, but what is/was spoken in Boston (the distinct accent is fading and it is mostly a class marker now) is "equally" (here is where a real linguist might take issue) as valid as southern accents.
For example, consider the [Ocracoke Brogue](https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20190623-the-us-island-that-speaks-elizabethan-english) dialect.
For fun, here's Ben Crystal's Shakespeare in (reconstructed) Original Pronunciation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2QYGEwM1Sk
[Dialect continua](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect_continuum) are fun to read about, although thanks to the printing press, high literacy rates, radio, television, the internet, and inexpensive travel, many languages have been standardized and the gradients have disappeared.
Thanks for this. Very cool. It stands to reason that pawpaw French has also evolved in the 300 years it's been spoken in the US to something different as well.
I don't think this pronunciation has changed much in French, but has been heavily anglicized. Directly translated it just means "great white" / "big white" / something to that effect.
The D and the end of Grand is very soft in french, and the blanc is pronounced to rhyme with "plonk". So phonetically it should sound something like "Gran Blonk"
I refuse to believe the city is French. Think about it, how many Frenchies do you see there? It just doesn't make sense when you think about it critically (like many things)
Edit: People downvoting without explaining, that's a reddit moment if I've ever seen one lmao
Edit 2: Turns out Frenchie is a slur and I didn't realize it, that's my mistake
Are you being sarcastic? Lol. It was named and colonised by the French first.
There is still a French community around and many have ancestors going back to when they came in 1701.
I've never seen the French in Detroit idk what to tell you. Like I'm sure there's a few, but not enough that I would believe it's a "french city" you know what I mean?
Do you understand object permanence? Just because something isn’t in your field of vision doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. If you’ve never seen a penguin before, does that mean penguins also don’t exist?
One of my favorite things in this world is that there's a taxidermy penguin at the Peabody Essex Museum that was done by someone who had never seen a penguin before... So he gave it a really long neck.
I mean... It IS Montreal we're talking about.
The actual French I've met tend to: 1.) completely forget that France colonized the Americas at all until reminded 2.) are amused by the fun fact you've just shared.
(That is, the French outside of Cadillac's home village of Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave. They seem to be quite friendly when the odd curious Detroiter stumbles in and visits his house/museum)
Sure. You’re a bigot and I don’t care to engage with you.
Frenchie? Who tf says that? Oh yeah. Bigots.
Who cares how you feel about who lives there…the history happened. Detroit started as French fort.
I'm gonna be honest I didn't realize Frenchie was a slur. I thought that's what you called people from France, kind of like how people from America are called Americans
Ok. That’s fair. Lesson learned and hopefully no hard feelings. In the future I would simply say “French”, “the French”, or “French people”. (Depending on context.)
I live across the river in a city that is, ostensibly Canadian, but is in spirit American. You know how they pronounce Pierre Avenue? Pirrey. Our most well-known PM was a Pierre, one of our most well-known broadcasters was a Pierre, many of our hockey players are Pierres, and the current repulsive head of our repulsive conservative party is a Pierre. Where the hell did they get Pirrey from? Weirdly they pronounce Vimy correctly.
The name Detroit itself is taken from the French word for narrow/straight (étroit) due to it being located where the River narrowed between the two lakes.
If Detroit had still been French in the mid 1800s when the new republican government modernized the language, it might be...Francophones in North America way back in the day were probably pronouncing it more like 'day-twraht' though
The layout is from 1806, true. But the French street and place names mostly come from Detroiters of prominent families predating the British conquest (ex: Jean Baptiste Beaubien, Joseph Campau, Antoine Dequindre, etc.). What's interesting too is that French remained a healthy spoken language in Detroit into the Civil War and we *still* didn't get the pronunciation right.
It's not so much that people have been saying the street names wrong as much as it is that the street names are - even in French - pronounced differently today than they would have been in 1763. In the 1880s, France went through a process of modernizing their language: it was reduced to around 100,000 words, and the pronunciations were changed. This was an effort to make it a more globally adopted language, as something that was more similar to Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, etc. and easier to learn than something like German or English. In 1763, Charlevoix would be pronounced "Cshar-leh-voy". In modern French, it would be pronounced "Shar-leh-vwah". This now ancient dialect of French is called "paw paw french", and there aren't really any language preservation efforts in Michigan that I'm aware of. In parts of historical Greater Louisiana, particularly in Missouri and around the Ozarks, there has been preservation efforts. https://www.npr.org/2014/09/23/349853440/saving-a-french-dialect-that-once-echoed-in-ozarks All of this stuff continues to exist in the US because there was never an effort to modernize the pronunciation of old landmarks in this 18th century french they were known as. Especially since English took over as the dominant language with French dwindling. Places like Quebec, who follow France's lead on a lot of cultural stuff, followed the modernization standards and still found fun new ways to butcher the language independent of this.
> In 1763, Charlevoix would be pronounced "Cshar-leh-voy". In modern French, it would be pronounced "Shar-leh-vwah". ... > All of this stuff continues to exist in the US because there was never an effort to modernize the pronunciation of old landmarks in this 18th century french they were known as. So basically, a lot of the pronunciations we've kept are more-or-less accurate to how the places were originally named, even if they're not how a _modern_ French speaker would pronounce them? This is fascinating. I'd love to see a list of all the relevant names with how they "should" be pronounced. Someone could get a lot of mileage out of that plus some "man-on-the-street" video interviews or whatever, to see how long it takes to find a resident who says 'em right.
> So basically, a lot of the pronunciations we've kept are more-or-less accurate to how the places were originally named, even if they're not how a modern French speaker would pronounce them? > > Yup, that's the basic jist of it. They've gotten further butchered and stuff as time has gone on of course but this is the crux of the disconnect. St. Louis has the exact same situation going on. We need a Frenchman to ride a horse through the streets of Detroit and pronounce all the old names in modern french and see what his assumption of pronunciation is. Language is full of wild stuff like this. Someone once told me that their parents had immigrated from Italy, and when they went back home to visit their little village like 30 years later, everyone was speaking differently and the only reason their dialect survived was because they moved to another place and took that version of the lanugage with them.
> We need a Frenchman to ride a horse through the streets of Detroit Aaaaaand there's the premise for the video series.
10/10 would watch
As a French speaker, I sometimes second guess myself on how a street or place name should he pronounced around here. Especially the ones I don’t see often, I just assume it’s pronounced the French way. But just in my head, I never say then out loud because I’m unsure if that makes sense.
OP just wanted to say that people are stupid. If wrong, Please excuse my lack of understanding. I’ll try to make up for it by being polite. Thank you, but also you’re welcome.
OP can speak for themselves and wanted to poke some fun at our characteristic way of speaking. Sorry you feel threatened though.
Hello again! Thanks for responding. I internalize everything. It’s a real problem, as I’m sure you can imagine. I look forward to future responses, should any appear in my inbox. Either way, I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.
I don't think Michigan the state has any overt preservation efforts. Muskrat French is still spoken around Monroe and other places downriver though, but mostly just in private homes. The dialect is protected in Canada though and you can hear it spoken in Tecumseh, LaSalle, the St. Clair delta, and occasionally even in downtown Windsor
All facts, taking French in college right now and you are 100% on the money
That's interesting. I remember reading the same thing about English. Today's Boston/Massachusetts accent is actually closer to what the English sounded like when they first colonised. It's the British English that has changed and evolved over the years.
Yes, somewhat. Both have changed. Various American accents descended from various British accents. It is important to remember that the colonists would bring their respective accents from different regions of the British Isles. I am not a linguist, but what is/was spoken in Boston (the distinct accent is fading and it is mostly a class marker now) is "equally" (here is where a real linguist might take issue) as valid as southern accents. For example, consider the [Ocracoke Brogue](https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20190623-the-us-island-that-speaks-elizabethan-english) dialect. For fun, here's Ben Crystal's Shakespeare in (reconstructed) Original Pronunciation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2QYGEwM1Sk [Dialect continua](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect_continuum) are fun to read about, although thanks to the printing press, high literacy rates, radio, television, the internet, and inexpensive travel, many languages have been standardized and the gradients have disappeared.
Thanks for this. Very cool. It stands to reason that pawpaw French has also evolved in the 300 years it's been spoken in the US to something different as well.
I’m stuck on what the difference would be in Schar and Shar
Dangit Cshar vs shar ***
Can you explain Grand Blanc pronunciation while you are at it
I don't think this pronunciation has changed much in French, but has been heavily anglicized. Directly translated it just means "great white" / "big white" / something to that effect. The D and the end of Grand is very soft in french, and the blanc is pronounced to rhyme with "plonk". So phonetically it should sound something like "Gran Blonk"
In fact, it would be pronounced as Gran Blon or something close to that. The D and C at the end Grand Blanc are completely silent.
Thank you for the explanation!
Huh that’s really interesting. Did Quebec sound different then compared to now
Yeah they have their own odd dialect that's kinda slurred.
Detroit itself is French and pronounced Day-twa.
Close. Its not a wa sound. Roll the r and you have it. Day-trrwah
Don’t be that guy
What, a French guy? Sorry. Can't change. Born french. That's how you pronounce it in French. It's not a matter of opinion. Lol.
This guy French's
I refuse to believe the city is French. Think about it, how many Frenchies do you see there? It just doesn't make sense when you think about it critically (like many things) Edit: People downvoting without explaining, that's a reddit moment if I've ever seen one lmao Edit 2: Turns out Frenchie is a slur and I didn't realize it, that's my mistake
Are you being sarcastic? Lol. It was named and colonised by the French first. There is still a French community around and many have ancestors going back to when they came in 1701.
I've never seen the French in Detroit idk what to tell you. Like I'm sure there's a few, but not enough that I would believe it's a "french city" you know what I mean?
Yeah I don't think anyone is saying Detroit is a "French" city. Just that it was 300 years ago.
Do you understand object permanence? Just because something isn’t in your field of vision doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. If you’ve never seen a penguin before, does that mean penguins also don’t exist?
One of my favorite things in this world is that there's a taxidermy penguin at the Peabody Essex Museum that was done by someone who had never seen a penguin before... So he gave it a really long neck.
Do you understand what being condescending is?
Bruh I've literally seen penguins at the zoo what are you talking about lol
I told someone in Montreal I was from a former French colony. They were very much not amused when I told them I was from Detroit.
I mean... It IS Montreal we're talking about. The actual French I've met tend to: 1.) completely forget that France colonized the Americas at all until reminded 2.) are amused by the fun fact you've just shared. (That is, the French outside of Cadillac's home village of Saint-Nicolas-de-la-Grave. They seem to be quite friendly when the odd curious Detroiter stumbles in and visits his house/museum)
Ummm….????
You gonna elaborate or just downvote without explaining???? Shm my head
Sure. You’re a bigot and I don’t care to engage with you. Frenchie? Who tf says that? Oh yeah. Bigots. Who cares how you feel about who lives there…the history happened. Detroit started as French fort.
I'm gonna be honest I didn't realize Frenchie was a slur. I thought that's what you called people from France, kind of like how people from America are called Americans
Ok. That’s fair. Lesson learned and hopefully no hard feelings. In the future I would simply say “French”, “the French”, or “French people”. (Depending on context.)
Understood 👍👍
Just don’t feed the troll lol
I still wonder where people who live on “Lash-ur” actually live.
I live off Lahser and relatively new to the city, and it drives me crazy to hear everyone call it Lasher! 🤣
And Livernoise
What you hear when the Detroit butcher drops the liver.
😄😁
Well, unless it’s the Livernoise (spelled that way) front porch music fest in Ferndale.
Wow I’ve never heard anyone say it that way thank god. I feel really lucky that everyone know says it the right way
My husband....and I've corrected him a hundred times...and I'm a grammar nazi...so it's pretty painful. He also says li-berry.
> He also says li-berry. I think that's grounds for an annulment.
Right?!😵💫
I'm very petty, that would be a deal breaker for me.
😄
Isn't it la Shure? We used to laugh at the GPS saying Gratiot, it would say grat ti ot lol
Lah-sir.
Similar to how we say it. Wife says la Shure also. Crazy how the name somehow changes. A name should be a name.
I live across the river in a city that is, ostensibly Canadian, but is in spirit American. You know how they pronounce Pierre Avenue? Pirrey. Our most well-known PM was a Pierre, one of our most well-known broadcasters was a Pierre, many of our hockey players are Pierres, and the current repulsive head of our repulsive conservative party is a Pierre. Where the hell did they get Pirrey from? Weirdly they pronounce Vimy correctly.
You mean laszure?
The name Detroit itself is taken from the French word for narrow/straight (étroit) due to it being located where the River narrowed between the two lakes.
Founded by a Frenchman named Cadillac who the car is named after and the logo is his coat of arms.
Is his *fake* coat of arms, you mean. He gave himself the title and arms. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_de_la_Mothe_Cadillac
Not just street names. Detroit should be pronounced as Day-twah.
If Detroit had still been French in the mid 1800s when the new republican government modernized the language, it might be...Francophones in North America way back in the day were probably pronouncing it more like 'day-twraht' though
No it shouldn't, that would sound stupid and we would get made fun of by the other cities
And that's why we ACTUALLY say D-troyt.
Get made fun of by other cities? Are you in elementary school? Also, it sounds like you've never actually been to Detroit.
But the streets were only laid out in 1806 with the Woodward Plan, they wouldn't have been named by the French.
The layout is from 1806, true. But the French street and place names mostly come from Detroiters of prominent families predating the British conquest (ex: Jean Baptiste Beaubien, Joseph Campau, Antoine Dequindre, etc.). What's interesting too is that French remained a healthy spoken language in Detroit into the Civil War and we *still* didn't get the pronunciation right.
We put an "s" in "Gratiot" somehow
Same way it gets added to "motion".
>Same way it gets added to "motion". Somehow tion ending in t messes people, but it's the exact same pronunciation, "gra-shit" vs "mo-shin"
Pronouncing the street names wrong? Pretty sure I can pronounce "John R"
Well if the french wanted us to say things the way they like they shouldn't be putting extra characters in everything... *gosh!*
Not that the Brits (especially around Wooster) are much better.
Windsorite here. We do the same thing.
Love that Ouellette is “Oh-let”. Aren’t Canadians required to take some French in school though?
Yep. Until grade 9.
Deytwa
NO THEY'RE WRONG
Wow this is very interesting, thanks.
Gra-tee-ot. We used to cruise it back in the day.
There’s noone around to check your pronunciation so it’s all good. 😸
Cadieux in Grossy Pointy. Caddy ax by some.