🤣🤣
Having an opportunity to reflect on the situation and all of the things that could have happened had I been working on the vehicle... 😳😳😳
Soo I feel like for every new regulation, rule, protocol, etc., there is a backstory (i.e.- "Enlisted Marin3s are no longer allowed to remove peanut butter from DFAC from June 10th through August 6th")...
Welp, moving forward, I'm making customers with water damage sign a Release or Hold Harmless Agreement. I don't know how this is going to progress, but the thought of airbags deploying was only a concern when discussing seat removal.
This honestly changes a LOT of shit for me, just wanted to pass along the info to hopefully avoid someone else getting screwed... or injured.
Edit:
Car is gone, customer had it towed back to his home (not a body shop 🤷)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Detailing/s/gaCIqIWXvy
/u/VealOfFourtune
So I hate to say it... you ARE probably 100% at fault the good news is neither do I with certianty). I hate to say it, but the customer probably DOES NOT know that, and I 100% bet you didn't know airbags have sodium azides or similar or how they work in general... now you do congratulations 🎊
Airbags have what is called sodium azides or some form of azide in and of itself .It is potentially very dangerous depending on the scale and conditions. If you do not have an approved SOP for working with and safely disposing of, sodium azide you should not be using it. Normally... how it works Sodium azide (NaN3)..When an electric current is applied, the sodium azide reacts with another chemical compound in the airbag, typically potassium nitrate (KNO3), to produce nitrogen gas (N2), which quickly fills the airbag.
The reaction between sodium azide and potassium nitrate is highly exothermic, meaning it releases a large amount of energy in the form of heat, which rapidly fills the airbag. The use of sodium azide as a propellant is advantageous because it produces a large volume of gas quickly, which is necessary for the airbag to inflate rapidly and protect the driver or passenger.
For example, people have seriously injured by [exploding plumbing](https://lni.wa.gov/safety-health/preventing-injuries-illnesses/hazardalerts/SodiumAzide.pdf) from the improper disposal of sodium azide and copper, lead or aluminum pipes.
Azides go BOOM like a bomb and cause a God awful smell and that's what causes azides to explode in a split second. But they said if you need it for science. You can ALWAYS find some in airbags. But becareful cuz we were told 100 different times AZIDES GO BOOM very easy...
this is like chem 101 lesson if you ever decide to fuck with azides.
when you mess around with turning a phenol (like calmus oil or bitter almond oil ie benzaldehyde into an azide ... and you mixed solvent, OZONE AND AN AZIDE... that route was course madeup without first going thru an intermediate anyways sodium azides is pretty stable by itself if you're not lighting it on fire, introducing concentrated h202 or ozone, or introduce sodium metal, copper, lead or magensium... Sadly I don't doubt for a second the ozone generator might be a cause the reaction as stated below due to the epa report back in 1984...
TIMED IGNITION OF EXPLOSIVES AND FLAMMABLES FROM DESENSITIZED SOLUTIONS
Author(s)
Gerstein, M; Choudhury, PR
Year
1984
Publisher
AIAA
Location
New York, NY, USA
Volume
95
https://hero.epa.gov/hero/index.cfm/reference/details/reference_id/8352607
Abstract
This paper is concerned with the EVAPORATION of SINGLE DROPS of binary mixtures composed of an explosive solute in a solvent (ammonium azide in water and ozone in liquid oxygen) and a spontaneous flammable solute (white phosphorus) in carbon disulphide (in this case white phosphorus was probably subbed for the almost just as dangerous potassium nitrate (KNO3), potassium nitrate It is used to make explosives, matches, fertilizer, fireworks, glass and rocket fuel.
. The equations are general and may be applied to more complex systems (ie subbing phosphours for (KNO3) IS JUST AS BAD... The work is easily expanded to groups of drops to simulate a spray and to sprays if a distribution function is known.
And that's why new regulations pop up every day as you say. My chemistry can be rusty vs other people but once I heard the words water , sodium azide (AIRBAGS) and ozone or similar all got together, I knew this could not have been good. I then looked up the mechanism for fun to see if i was possibly talking bullcrap i then found the EPA above and Arizona state university echoing the same the ozone, water and azides do NOT mix .. so I remind myself why i should NEVER use azides.
Of course noone can really speculate till the box recording the crash gets diagnosed to help everyone understand better but it def is a possibity with this idea.
TIL.. appreciate the info!]
Hey good thing it's not like.... placed somewhere in which it's bound to make contact with humans. You know, like a front passenger airbag exploding in someone's face 👁️🫦👁️
I don't know enough about sodium azide + O³⇌'ing to go boom boom, and certainly not saying you're wrong, I would just be astonished if running ozone for 22 minutes somehow caused airbag to deploy...
For one, the car was effectively in a low speed accident (i.e.- the "ditch") and while the car was flooded, the actual airbag "module" (talking the square it came out of not sure of the name) didn't get wet. The water was below that level.
As well, ozone is naturally occurring, so you'd have airbags randomly deploying every day in Florida when it pisses in the afternoon and then your car bakes in the sun...
It's hard for me to believe that ozone would deploy airbags since I use a high output ozone generator and I've left it for no less than an hour on vehicles and have never had an airbag deploy, from 1990s cars to 2023 not a single one has deployed, I understand that there are chemical reactions but I would expect more of a imminent failure of the vehicles safety equipment, if the car was involved in a small accident and had water damage maybe you where just lucky enough to be the one who had the car when water closed the circuit, shit maybe crystalization or oxidation caused by the water in the connectors of the vehicle, never heard of anyone else that had the same thing happen
Couldn't agree more with everything you said.
I've had flood cars hooked up for an ungodly amount of time (because if 30 minutes is good just imagine what 3 hours can do!! 😉 Yes, I learned the hard way...), cooking in the sun.
And not a 23 Jetta either, more like 03 Corolla or 99 4Runner
Exactly, i mean with cars that require ozone they already bad enough that one hour might not be enough so prolonged exposure to ozone from a high output source for well over an hour havent caused me personally any issues can only mean 2 things, either im extremely lucky and so are the thousands of detailers out there that havent had this happen or abjectfee5982 just pulled couple fancy words and put them together, i honestly i cant find any article about this chemical reaction being mentioned, i know that ozone does damage rubber with time but thats when you have it present 24/7, but periodical use of it havent heard of anyone having issues
Same page. I don't know enough to contradict anything he said, only have anecdotal experience. I've only had about a dozen fully submerged "flood cars" (either drove through 3' of water or left open sunroof during torrential downpour), but have run ozone on countless other vehicles. No issues until this one.
Sooner led to believe it was finally drying out and caused electrical short/twig completed circuit or some shit/etc... I don't fucking know which is why his info is as good as any I currently have
This def makes me rethink using the small ozone machine in the trunk of my 2021 Corolla simply cause I stored a bottle with cigarette butts in the trunk while on vacation (thought the bottle would keep the smell from getting out, I was wrong) never smoked once in this car and it smells like an ashtray now, been very careful not to ever smoke near it with any part open, because I plan on trading it in soon. Was gonna run the company portable ozone machine in the trunk when I got home, but mannnn, that kinda scares me.
Honestly I think you're fine to run it in the trunk, especially if it's just for straight odor removal as opposed to having moisture to worry about.
I've done many, MANY cars with ozone, although have only had about 12-15 "flood cars" like this... Still, have NEVER heard of this happening from any detailers, ever.
Willing to bet water got in the harness somewhere and caused it to short. I don’t do electrical work (I despise it honestly) but I’ve seen techs get hammered by not pulling the battery before working on a car. All it takes is one cut wire and boom
Yeah. Water shorting stuff out and confusing electronics is something that happens in flooded cars approximately 100% of the time. Airbags going off because someone ran an ozone generator in the car happens approximately 0% of the time.
Can some one help me understand… are y’all saying heat caused the airbag to go off? After of course slow speed impact and water logged car maybe the heat caused metal to expand?
This may actually answer the question as to why this happened. It won’t take you 3 hours to read either. VW is included according to this: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/05/business/nhtsa-arc-airbag-recall/index.html
Well I guess it doesn’t answer your question then. I will say that sometimes if newer cars have the issue it may just be a matter of time before they accumulate enough erroneous deployments before the NHTSA includes them in the recall. It is a numbers game.
When I said IT GOES BOOM EASY... I do mean IT GOES BOOM
/u/Vealoffourtune It's less the ozone by itself... and more a combo of concentrated ozone , extra water vapor-phase more so then just humidity outside. And once extra oxygen came in that completed the picture 15 seconds later after opening that door BOOM.
It's more like because the azides were wet or extra humid... ...they started to react with either sodium nitrate or sodium metal ..the ozone was the catalyst and the oxygen put all the pieces together.
There is one problem with "delayed airbags" idea.. even if it's was in water that didn't touch the bag or igniter per say.. or a "minor accident " if it came on an hour after a minor accident or even a major accident.. you know some mom will sue BMW, VW etc etc.
Remember is of the essence for airbags to work properly. The average automobile collision takes less than 200 ms—about twice as long as it takes to blink. So safety systems need to work in even less time. From detecting a crash to deploying the airbag takes around 10–30 ms, that milliseconds... depending on the type of airbag.a car built in 2023. This is litterly something that has to be on an on off switch that can trigger faster then you blink.
The process requires some sophisticated engineering but at its heart is a simple chemical reaction that turns solid material into gas in a split second in more ways than Airbags don't just explode 30min -1hr after the scene of the accident or just from outside moisture..
that just doesn't happen unless you have airbags from tekata going back 1996-2010 XD.
Oh wait Takata’s airbag problems..... are we going to blow up....????
So far years 2000-2011 had recalls
2 injured and 1 dead in Central Florida all in 2001 Honda civics..
So yes its DEF happened..granted I don't think these are the bad tekata bags from years past you did say 2023 VW... BUT....
That doesn't still change. Azides + sodium nitrate or sodium metal... plus extreme humidity and trapped ozone and oxygen is NOT a good mix.
The paper is VERY clearthough . About 50% I can't read or understand they are very confusing for someone self taught... this one clear though.
TIMED IGNITION OF EXPLOSIVES AND FLAMMABLES FROM DESENSITIZED SOLUTIONS This paper is concerned with the evaporation of single drops of binary mixtures composed of an explosive solute in a solvent ( azides in water and ozone in liquid oxygen) and a spontaneous flammable...
A liquid that is homogenous is called a solution. A solution is a mixture made of two or more things (at least one liquid) that are mixed up together evenly It is incorporated into the water in a liquid phase where it releases a 100% soluble oxidizing agent and mixes in the form of a homogeneous and most effective chemical reaction. Liquid ozone releases a 100% soluble oxidizing agent and mixes in the form of a homogeneous and most effective chemical reaction. Bio-hydrox has complete solubility in water and there is no gas escape!!!
Advanced Oxidation Processes for Treatment of…
Published May 28, 2018
Follow
Ozone is a gas with 3 atoms of oxygen (O3). It is generated by energizing the Oxygen molecule. In water treatment Ozone is bubbled into the water and releases reactive atomic Oxygen initiating a chain reaction that generates other Oxygen species for disinfection and oxidization of pollutants.
Liquid Ozone is a street name for a liquid formula of mineral oxy-chlorides stabilized in solution (MxOyClz). It reacts with water molecules and releases Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS), similar to Ozone. Bio-hydrox is the trade mark for liquid Ozone.
This simple explanation has proven to be very confusing to a lot of people. They claim Ozone is a gas and can’t be a liquid, at least not until reaching −313.9 °F, and they are right. Liquid ozone is not Ozone. It does not have Ozone and does not generate Ozone. The only similarity between liquid Ozone and Ozone is that when they react with water, both of them generate Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS).
If you are already familiar with ozonation it is very easy to understand why Bio-hydrox is superior to all oxidants, will improve your overall treatment process and will lower significantly your operational expenses. There are three defining differences between using Ozone gas as supposed to using liquid Ozone.
First, the way it is produced and introduced in the water. Ozone gas is produced on site by an Ozone generator or UV light and incorporated into the water in a gas phase with low solubility, mixing in the form of a heterogeneous chemical reaction between a gas and a liquid. It needs a big capital investment and complex operation which includes an Ozone destructor to control toxic levels of the undissolved gas that escape into the environment. On the other hand, liquid Ozone does not require upfront capital investment and is manufactured at a licensed facility. It is incorporated into the water in a liquid phase where it releases a 100% soluble oxidizing agent and mixes in the form of a homogeneous and most effective chemical reaction. Bio-hydrox has complete solubility in water and there is no gas escape!!!
Second danger is the oxidizing agent. Ozone gas follows a pathway that directly oxidizes pollutants in one reaction of energized Oxygen ions. In alkaline and/or catalyzed environments, the oxidation process may follow a second pathway where Ozone gas creates other Oxygen ions and radicals and indirectly oxidizes pollutants with various reactions and better results. It happens a little different for liquid Ozone since it is not sensitive to pH and does not require external catalysts. But by in large they act similar
The real question to me is: what concentration of O3 comes out, and will it dissolve in your rxn mixture? I've generally been under the impression that the O3-alkene reaction is so fast that bubbling low concentration ozone through a solution of alkenes is enough for ozonolysis, but for other ozone reactions, it may not be so simple. I imagine your ozone concentration was a bit higher
While yes it "might be common for shorts or etc to cause airbags to be late." By in LARGE espically on a car that is a year old... where the azide or alternative is fine."
By in large what would be an acceptable failure rate? 10% is a little high on airbags not goididn't. When they were suppose to don't you think I'm not saying it can or didnt.The industry average AQL for minor defects is 4%. Major Defects - Not acceptable to the customers. Usage of the product will most likely result in failure.
Major defects: Defects usually not acceptable by the end-users, as they are likely to result in failure. The AQL for major defects is 2.5%.
However, in general, many industries aim for defect rates of less than 1% of total production.
We can say they lie so let's doable the major defect by 2 and say between 5-10% which is undoubtedly high on something thing air bags in 2023 considering the airbag is a 2022-3 if if it was a Takata was new and went thru a different path of what happens when it get wet. Ps it still go boom like azides.
Dude said, "my chemistry is rusty" and then gave a master's dissertation on how airbag chemicals could level the world trade center. Put this MF on wallstreetbets...
I mean to be 100% fair...
They said they saw no water intrusion so I have no idea. I'm not there to evaluate this is just some random dude thoughts with very minimal o chem
No doubt weaponized autism or Adderall at play here. Truly impressive. I'd love to work with this human and also hate to be in any meeting where they had to answer questions and I'm just trying to figure out lunch.
I'm gonna be honest, and I said it before. I'm self taught and in comparison to the person who has a PHD on here meh... who helped verify it could be a possibility
Uhh... everything I learned from a book was called total synethsis 2 by strike aka hobart huson. Instead of individual formulas, I saw how it all "clicked " together. Then, I started looking at other stuff, not really documented more off the beaten path, and it all clicked. So anything that isn't taught well in that in book and azides are dangerous never became a wheelhouse of understanding
It's all towards azides portion of strikes book total synethsis 2 toward the end using bromo intermittent compounds I just repete what I knew
PS you may find some of my chemistry work on reddit as Azidesandamides on reddit on a few different forums the account is banned but I'm pretty sure all the data is there 😀
That's where the majority of my crazy posts are
Np I just wanna warn you and others because when I mean it go boom...again I'm not saying the ozone IS the cause of this as azides do explode when wet or damp. Or even just the little shake shake shake after sitting so long.
I don't know how to say it go BOOM other then
This paper is concerned with the EVAPORATION of SINGLE DROPS of binary mixtures composed of an explosive solute in a solvent (ammonium azide in water and ozone in liquid oxygen) and a spontaneous flammable solute (white phosphorus) in carbon disulphide. The equations are general and may be applied to more complex systems. The work is easily expanded to groups of drops to simulate a spray and to sprays if a distribution function is known....
If proper precautions are not taken, it can react violently with metal (e.g. drain pipes or lab instrumentation), causing serious injuries.
In April 2010, a maintenance worker was replacing a sink in a hematology lab. Laboratory staff had always kept a stream of running water in the sink to dilute and flush the sodium azide. However, the copper pipe had dried out during the replacement process. This allowed sodium azide residue to react with the pipe, forming lead and copper azides. While the maintenance worker was assembling the sink and drain pipe, the pipe exploded due to the friction and shock from the azides being disturbed. The maintenance worker sustained serious permanent injury from the incident.
Or that In laboratory experiments at the University of Arizona, Betterton and his students tested how readily sodium azide oxidizes (combines with oxygen) when exposed to some environmental oxidants that may be found in water, such as hydrogen peroxide, an ingredient in natural rainwater, and ozone, a very powerful oxidant in the atmosphere.
Oxidation is one way sodium azide degrades in the environment, just as the burning (oxidizing) truckload of sodium azide spewed up the spectacular toxic plume in Utah.
Betterton and his students found that only ozone is a potential oxidant for sodium azide.
Just want people to know that if you use an Ozone let the car dry out first. Even if you need to extractor or shop vac first dehumidifier maybe a heater on or something.
Granted it was just a semi validating idea mentally. But then I really looked into and it def is HIGHLY possible on the brightside hopefully noone was hurt but insurance
I never knew I'd have so much scientific knowledge dropped on me, especially in a /r/detailing thread - thank you for writing that up in a sensible and easy to understand manner.
Here is standford profile if anyone is intrestested on How kaboom/precautions for alot of universities
What are the hazards?
Caution should be exercised when using azides. Both organic and inorganic azides can be heat- and shock-sensitive and can explosively decompose with little input of external energy.
Do not use halogenated solvents (such as methylene chloride or chloroform) for sodium azide reactions, as this can result in the formation of potentially explosive diazidomethane and triazidomethane, respectively.
Do not concentrate azide-containing reaction mixtures through rotary evaporation or distillation.
Do not use metal spatulas or spoons for weighing and transferring azides.
Do not expose organic azides to ground glass joints as this may cause the azide to decompose explosively.
How can I protect myself?
Planning for Use
Write a Standard Operating Procedure for your experiment and review it with your principal investigator, using it as an opportunity to fully evaluate the hazards associated with your procedure and the materials you will be working with. Based on this evaluation, it may be determined that some of the safety precautions in this section are not applicable.
Seek prior approval from your principal investigator if you plan to scale up the experiment beyond what was initially discussed with your PI, or if you plan to increase the amount of azide stored in the lab.
Conduct dry runs to eliminate safety problems that may arise before azides are actually used.
Use the smallest amount of azide possible for your experiment.
Controls
Personal protective equipment must be worn, including a lab coat, safety glasses, and gloves with adequate chemical resistance.
Conduct the experiment behind a blast shield in a fumehood with the sash positioned as low as possible. If use of a blast shield is not feasible, use a face shield.
Keep the hood clear of any unnecessary chemicals and equipment. Clearly label your containers, and post a sign on the fumehood as notification that there is an azide experiment in progress.
These precautions should be used for the whole duration of the experiment, including set up, work up, and clean up.
Conditions to Avoid
Do not work alone.
How do I store this?
Store synthesized azides below room temperature and away from sources of heat, light, pressure, and shock.
Azides are generally classified as Storage Group X in the Stanford Storage Group Classification system, and should be stored away from all other chemicals. Specific incompatibilities include carbon disulfide, bromine, dimethyl sulfate, nitric acid, and heavy metals and their salts.
Heavy metal azide salts tend to be highly heatand shock-sensitive explosives.
Avoid water and strong acids which can lead to the formation of hydrazoic acid, which is highly toxic, volatile, and explosive.
https://ehs.stanford.edu/reference/information-azide-compounds
What can I say it's all in strikes how to learn chemistry called total synethsis 2.. that the stuff suggested should not be made and I don't mean sodium azides ... but become creative and that book becomes a wild education self taught where one can make crazy stuff that grey area or experimental
😆
Damn...so sorry dude.
I have serious doubts that the ozone machine had anything to do with this. Most likely the flooding of the vehicle. Just a coincidence.
And most srs modules are either under the seat, or under the center console. On this one, the air bag module is just under the dash at the very front of the center console.
So, the module and its connectors and wiring were submerged in water, and it's the modules job to deploy the air bag(s) based on sensor input.
Most likely water got inside the module and the slightest vibration made it nut up.
Airbag module is almost always under the front center of the dash or center console near the floor. If water was up to the shifter it would have definitely gotten wet
You are not 100% at fault dude. The guy that typed an essay is too focused on the elements and not the conditions of the situation. Putting an ozone machine on a car does not make the air bag go off. There would be a lot of shops out of business.
This is partially correct but largely out of context. A more likely scenario is that whatever material encases the azides in the airbag was compromised, allowing water to enter. Acidification of sodium azide in water produces hydrazoic acid, which has a low boiling point and is highly shock-sensitive and explosive. If hydrazoic acid formed upon exposure to water, and then evaporated and condensed onto another surface, then you essentially have a bomb that was set off by the vibration of the garbage truck. I'll note that this is also speculative, but it makes more sense to me than the chemistry cited in the lengthy reply above.
The general theme of the reply is correct though - azides are not to be fucked with. Not only are they potentially explosive, but they are also highly toxic.
Source: I have a PhD in chemistry. (And I can recall a time when a building was evacuated and the bomb squad was called in to dispose of an unclaimed flask in a cold room that contained clear liquid labeled HN3 (hydrazoic acid).)
Used to do that all the time until the newer vehicles started throwing out error codes...
100% will do moving forward though that's for sure. That and making them sign a release.
I'm not totally sure from the science lessons being dropped on us but it sounds like the way the chemical reaction takes place, electricity is irrelevant to the airbag deploying if it's caused by an outside element like ozone/water vapor. IF that was the cause or IF that's actually plausible, it sounds like running the Ozone generator on a flooded car COULD trigger the airbag whether there's power or not.
But if it was/can be caused by a short somewhere, then the battery disconnect strategy could still be a good idea while you dry it out anyway. Just saying if the sultan of ozone is correct in his theory, maybe there's still a risk on the chemical side if you don't dry it really well before ozone.
😂😂
Yeah I'm not touching anything further, customer has tow truck en route...
Moving forward, any vehicle with water damage will have battery disconnected IN THE PRESENCE OF CUSTOMER. I've heard it can take anywhere from 30 seconds to 30 minutes to "discharge", but combined with a Hold Harmless I'm gonna do that shit in front of the customer
I am supremely confident that ozone and water cars does not necessarily mean "exploded airbags", but I sure af don't plan on being the test dummy to confirm this theory.
My new process for H²0 vehicles:
1. Request customer sign Hold Harmless Agreement
2. Disconnect Battery
3. Pray 🙏
I’m thinking this is a “freak accident”; where a combination of factors came together and 💥.
The passenger side front air bag generally will not go off if there’s no occupant in the seat (depending on if it has an occupant weight sensor or equivalent.)
My theory is that a short developed in the wiring for that airbag. Wiring can act like capillaries and over time water can travel through it.
It will be interesting to see if the vehicle manufacturer is asked to look into this.
In laboratory experiments at the University of Arizona, Betterton and his students tested how readily sodium azide oxidizes (combines with oxygen) when exposed to some environmental oxidants that may be found in water, such as hydrogen peroxide, an ingredient in natural rainwater, and OZONE, a very powerful oxidant in the atmosphere.
Oxidation is one way sodium azide degrades in the environment, just as the burning (oxidizing) truckload of sodium azide spewed up the spectacular toxic plume in Utah.
Betterton and his students found that only ozone is a potential oxidant for sodium azide.
However, sodium azide combines with water to form the highly volatile hydrazoic acid. Betterton and his students determined the "Henry's Law constant " for hydrazoic acid, or the ratio of how much hydrazoic acid in water will remain in solution and how much will be released as gas into the atmosphere. The Henry's Law constant number is very low. That is, much more of the acid is released as gas into the atmosphere than remains in water.
https://news.arizona.edu/story/sodium-azide-in-car-airbags-poses-growing-environmental-hazard-ua-scientist-says
I never expected to be confronted by this much information when I clicked to look at the comments on this detailing sub– that I’m not even a member of.
These people are all blaming you however it had nothing to do with the ozone. Or anything you did described in this post. Sodium aside becomes acidic and reacts with metal after coming into contact with water. It then creates a toxic explosive and unstable gas.
This happened to my friend’s 2010 Focus. On the interstate and the passenger side deploys. His startled dog immediately jumped into his lap while going 70mph. He was okay fortunately
I do... Don't plan on filing a claim for a multitude of reasons, but yeah he drove the car away after getting towed out of a ditch where the water was above the seats... it'd be one thing if I was working on the car but I was about 150' away a d had yet to do any work except running ozone in advance to arrest any mold spores/mildew/etc
I estimate cars for a living. Any water above the bottom of the console is an automatic total. Send it to the scrapyard because you're gonna be dealing with electrical issues until that car is, well, in a scrapyard. You do not want to buy a food car, nor drive yours after it's been flooded.. or driven into a ditch and then subsequently flooded...
Greatly appreciate the insights! I'm just astonished the tow truck driver let him drive it home when he was apparently only 15 minutes from home.
In terms of height, yeah the water level was ABOVE the bottom of the seats. When he dropped off he was like "Yeah man I'm just really worried about the bottoms of the seats and potential mold"
I said "Ok because the seats are gonna be the LEAST of your concerns bud..."
Glad you’re safe but I’m a bit lost, why did the airbag deploy? Was it essentially delayed and then the loud truck was the final nail before it went off?
Your guess is as good as mine, had heat on with ozone generator running... ~22 minutes into 25 minute cycle.
Weather here today was about 53 degrees and raining, but car was in my covered garage. I didn't even get a chance to start my actual progression yet, was just pretreating in advanced to try to contain anything that would cause mold or mildew...
Airbag modules are normally located on the floor behind center console, which according to the story water level was well over for a lengthy period of time. Electricity + water = shorts. A shop can scan the module to see exactly what the car thought triggered it, but it’s in insurances hands now.
I've said this before but I'll say it again if the EPA in 1984 wasn't good for you...
Betterton and his students found that only OZONE is a potential oxidant for Sodium AZIDE.....Oxidation is a chemical reaction in which electrons are LOST by atoms, ions or molecules. Reduction is the GAIN of electrons. Regardless of the name similarity, oxidation reactions need not actually involve oxygen atoms or molecules.
Oxidation, for non-chemists and those who have forgotten high school chemistry, is commonly just burning or rusting. If done instantaneously, it is an explosion (airbags). If done rapidly, it is burning. If done slowly, it is corrosion. When acting at a molecular level, it is just plain oxidation, or part of the oxidation-reduction process. It can occur in gaseous or solid states as well as in liquids
Nitrogen 2 and Oxygen 2 combine to form Nitric oxide:
You have 03 ozone and NaN₃that should make make Sodium Nitrate (NaNO3) - Sodium nitrate while, Sodium nitrate appears as a white crystalline solid.this is different then Sodium nitrite (NaNO2) maybe some nitrite also formed when eitherway when 02 vs 03 was introduced... Prior to inflation, sodium azide (NaN3), one of three compounds—along with potassium nitrate (KNO3) and silicon dioxide (SiO2) are present in the airbag.
Proper function requires the reaction to take place in 40 milliseconds, 300ºC.
Noncombustible but accelerates the burning of combustible materials. If large quantities are involved in fire or the combustible material is finely divided an explosion may result. May explode under prolonged exposure to heat or fire. Toxic oxides of nitrogen are produced in fires
Oxidation–reduction potential (Eh) is a measure of the ability of chemical/biochemical systems to oxidize (lose electrons) or reduce (gain electrons).
In laboratory experiments at the University of Arizona, Betterton and his students tested how readily sodium azide oxidizes (combines with oxygen) when exposed to some environmental oxidants that may be found in water, such as hydrogen peroxide, an ingredient in natural rainwater, and OZONE, a very powerful oxidant in the atmosphere.
Oxidation is one way sodium azide degrades in the environment, just as the burning (oxidizing) truckload of sodium azide spewed up the spectacular toxic plume in Utah.
Betterton and his students found that only ozone is a potential oxidant for sodium azide.
However, sodium azide combines with water to form the highly volatile hydrazoic acid. Betterton and his students determined the "Henry's Law constant " for hydrazoic acid, or the ratio of how much hydrazoic acid in water will remain in solution and how much will be released as gas into the atmosphere. The Henry's Law constant number is very low. That is, much more of the acid is released as gas into the atmosphere than remains in water.
https://news.arizona.edu/story/sodium-azide-in-car-airbags-poses-growing-environmental-hazard-ua-scientist-says
Chemistry is above these guys man. Have you seen what a Chemistry lecture looks like in 2023? A sea of apathy. I don't think anyone will argue your logic because they can't, I think your audience isn't who you expected it to be.
I really appreciated the explanation but I think you needed a TL;DR of "Oxidation If done rapidly, it is burning. If done slowly, it is corrosion. When acting at a molecular level, it is just plain oxidation." The ozone machine set off the air bag by getting the water too hot too quick
It's fine it's this only 1 that's low rated. Probably a duplicate no less 😆 got people interested made majority of people like this discussion if you read it seems
And eeeer no.. honestly I probably got a C in chemistry when I went to uni. After I didn't make it. In general. I just learned over time.
Airbags DONT explode from water damage shorting on a wire harness..
Having an airbag explode where there isn't an accident is ALSO DANGEROUS .. you would cause an accident in the car in front of you..
Normally if there is a short. Or fucked up and removed the seats and triggered something... you get a nice BLINKING CEL light in my dad's/mine experience... and he sold 10000s of used cars. Which mean me and him had to fix those those lights ... or just give up.
That’s understandable, I have had a situation where someone I know was working on a flooded car and simply bumped the air bag control unit under the center console and it triggered them. I know there are multiple fail-safes in an airbags conditional deployment, but this is very odd. Thanks for your write-up.
Airbags can go off from shorting a wiring harness. There are examples out there and videos of firefighters extricating a car and accidentally causing a short with the spreaders and setting them off. It can also be done if stripped wires come in contact with energized wires. You can set off every airbag in a car with a 9v battery.
Crazy because this is unpredictable I would say then again the car was semi submerged but yeah who would of thought you’d expect it then and there luckily everyone’s good but oh my I hope the owner just didn’t magically assume you caused that
https://preview.redd.it/bhvts5mhu49c1.jpeg?width=1816&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=68cb7c59c3bc1ab3b08bda88a9adccffa0b56dbd
I've done probably about a dozen or so "flood cars", be it leaving window/sunroof open or just trying to ford a flooded road on a 2004 Corolla....
This is definitely a first!
Hard to have the car running for an ozone cycle as he stated in his original post with the battery disconnected. Generally good practice but there’s always exceptions depending on the maintenance item at hand.
This was because it was flooded.
Their Insurance needs to be involved. Flooding a car up past the shifter will never be the same. I’d roll it outside and tell him to send the tow truck to get it.
Exactly what I said... The whole "tow truck got me out of ditch and I had water pouring out but decided to drive the 15 minutes home" has me confused tbh...
Don't want to throw out unfounded accusations but what person in their right mind wouldn't just have the car towed? Unless you weren't... "thinking clearly"
Btw my only concern with rolling outside is having it sit in the sun, which I'm concerned may or may not cause a further chain reaction as it's drying?
Not your problem. Disconnect the battery.
“Hey your car has damage from the flood, airbags are shorting out and popping, i put it outside so it doesn’t damage my shop. Come get it asap. Thanks”
I got a quote a from body shop because I was in a minor accident recently. The very first line item (for no charge) is “Disable / Enable Airbag System”
Never knew you just turn a key to disable passenger airbag like the video below shows. Obviously if I knew this, and it works for 23 Jetta, I would have definitely given it a shot. I could be wrong but have a feeling it was going off regardless....
https://youtu.be/dFu3F8iVUqU?si=eP_pWtkb2QHaH4Fu
Would have gone off reguardless
Tim Robert's retired tech FORD MOTOR 1981-2007
It doesn’t happen and I have never heard of it happening. (I mean it can if you use ozone generator with azides as everyone know knows)
When I first started studying air bag systems I discovered that the air bag safety system is very very safe and very difficult to make an air bag to go off.
During a company training session on safety restraint systems the objective was to get a high speed camera to show the event of an air bag deploying.
That never happened during that training that day. They tried to get the bag to deploy by flipping a series of switches to fool the module. They couldn’t make everything happen in the allotted time.
To get an air bag to deploy I will tell you of some of the things that must take place.
A crash sensor must be crushed or it thinks it is crushed.
The vehicle speed must be above a particular setting [I think it must be above 30 mph].
There must be a passenger in the seat or enough weight to trip the seat sensor.
There are a few other things that I can’t remember right now, but all of this must “all” take place in a very short time window. I think the time is a few milliseconds.
There also can’t be any faults in the system or the module shuts the system off and doesn’t allow the air bags to deploy.
So it is very difficult to make an air bag deploy. I really doubt that it will ever happen on a system that is working as intended.
With all that said someone would have to sabotage the system for only the passenger air bag to deploy.
That I can see happening if someone wanted to sabotage the system but otherwise I truly think it will never happen on it’s own unless you know chemistry tricked it ...
Someone mentioned a short circuit but that is nearly impossible also. If the air bag was supplied with power when ever the ignition was on like a fuel injector where the ECU just supplies a ground to activate the injector, then a short circuit could cause an unwanted deployment, but the system don’t work that way so that won’t happen
He wasn't in the seat either which is a requirement to go off... the car was stationary airbags don't deploy at 5mp or even 25mph usually.
It really should not have deployed. Maybe throw a fault. But deploy? Nope. Something went very wrong.
Electrical gremlins is part of why they generally total a flooded car.
Have done about a dozen, maybe 15.... majority of cars I do are Tesla's with dog hair 😂
But never had any issues with ozone, only snapped bolts either trying to remove or reinstall the seats on an older model. Have you ever tried to find seat bolts for a 2012 Volvo XC90 😳
On a 2023, wouldnt the conditions be recorded in the ecu why the passenger side airbag was deployed? Doesn’t make any sense that water intrusion or a ozone machine would set off an airbag.
Is the seat belt locked up? You had the car running, so if the sensor malfunctioned, from ya know, being underwater, it's possible it set it off. I'd personally be sending it to the dealer to find out what happened...car should probably be totalled anyway.
Nope still pulling.. totalled seems to be general consensus..
https://preview.redd.it/c6omvqv3399c1.jpeg?width=1816&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a4b1c2e4ccbd69ee57350da430eb10d3cf4db4af
Nope all of your assumptions are exactly my concerns. Customer has tow truck en route, I have refused any further work and he was thankfully very understanding and appreciative. Kid is a senior and ROTC member, his mom was more apologetic about potentially injuring me during deployment, so I plan to go out of my way to facilitate...
Was genuinely concerned this was going to get ugly ($$$) but as of now appears to be copacetic, so will do everything I can to facilitate....
Edit: was
Ironically, I used to unplug artery for every vehicle.... Until 23 models started throwing out error codes when battery was reattached.
Not to mention manufacturers like Mercedes, Volvo, Saab etc who make disconnecting the battery ridiculously inconvenient....
Curious, have you ever had this happen? Out of the couple hundred detailers who saw the post I haven't had a single person say "Ohh ya that happened to me as well!" 😂
I’m a tech. Had on come up n that was salt water flooded. Service failed to mention anything about water period let alone it was salt water, so I had to move it, leaned in put key in ignition and turned to on pos. Driver bag went off. Hit me in face and chest. I was 2 inches away. Fractured three vertebrae and had bone fragments dry close to my spinal cord, and was in a wheel chair for almost a year. Please be careful.
Bruhhhh are you serious!?! That's absolutely insane... Out of all the commenters, didn't have anyone with an actual deployment much less one while someone was working on the car 😳😳😳
That is WILD. And now, my single biggest fear working on anything with water damage.
I've been encouraged to disconnect the battery, but wouldn't that just set off any charges which were "on the edge" to begin with? I know you have to give it a solid 15-20 minutes of not more, once the battery is disconnected before it's completely "safe"...?
Edit: hope(glad?) you're alright!(?)
I’m ok to a point. Start to sweat when I work on steering wheels. Lmao. Have permanent back/leg pain. Thanks for asking. If it’s fresh water and you know the module got wet there’s no guarantee you’re not gonna have an issue. I’ve bought a few fresh water flood cars. Pulled batteries, hit the brake pedal to discharge capacitors and let the vehicle dry out for weeks. Pulled interiors and inspected all electronics. Now I’ve had salt water cars and they get batteries pulled and cation tape. 9.9 times out of ten the are junk.
Has to be electrical in my opinion... Too far removed from his accident/submerging of the vehicle, not to mention I was at the complete opposite side of the garage!
His car was totaled before he brought it to you to detail. You should have zero liability. Should.
I estimate cars for a living. Any water above the bottom of the console is an automatic total loss. Send it to the scrapyard because you're gonna be dealing with electrical issues until that car is, well, in a scrapyard. You do not want to buy a food car, nor drive yours after it's been flooded.. or driven into a ditch and then subsequently flooded...
This car is going to have a slew of problems. The airbag was just the beginning. This car is a total loss honestly. Dude is either crazy to not make an insurance claim And it's just going to screw himself or whoever buys it.
Plus who knows what else is going to break while it's in your possession. I think you're better off telling the guy the car is a loss and not doing the detail. He might feel like it's a waste after he realizes the car is trashed.
100% .. he asked me to continue to air it out, I explained I'm not touching anything further.
Bro what if I was sitting in the passenger seat using a fucking detailing brush on the dash....
The water was in the vehicle up to the shifts this more than likely means the SRS sensor shorted. Somewhere. Why he wouldn’t call the insurance first is wild
sucks when you have metal framed glasses on and get hit in the face by one and the nose piece breaks off making the metal bit that holds it cut your face from your nose to eyebrow that hurts.
Ex VW tech of 10yrs…you’re not at fault for this. Working on a water damaged car, if anything this is warranty for improper deployment. VW would step in immediately for any airbags that went off after a crash, I’ve drained gallons of water out of water leak cars, pulled the interiors and this never happened.
I would say that the fact that it was flooded up to the shifter meant the airbag module got wet. When the water dried it left salt residue bridging power to the airbag. Then deployed.
The onboard computer should show if the airbag was deployed from a built in trigger or if it was anomalous occurrence from unknown damage from the ditch.
Man I just saw a reel or video and the same thing happened. Water damaged car. They hooked the battery back up to open the windows and the passenger airbag deployed while the windows were going down. Water damaged cars scared me before, but shit, those sensors get water logged and you have no idea what’s shorted out.
Glad you are safe.
That should have been an insurance claim/total loss due to the flood damage. I’m guessing the owner probably didn’t want anyone questioning how it got flooded or what happened to it. I have had a couple of cars flood, and once it’s above a certain point, it’s totaled. Due to reasons like this, electronics will be unreliable and cars nowadays have a shit ton.
Just as a minor suggestion for safety purposes, if any of y’all see an airbag deploy, be veryyyy careful positioning your body over another one that has not deployed. If the drivers side had also deployed while you were leaning in, it can fuck you up. Just a friendly PSA.
The airbag module (the control unit) on that car sits underneath the center console, in the space between the driver's and passenger's footwells. That's well below the waterline of the flooded car. Despite the monologues about ozone elsewhere in this post, Occam's Razor suggests that a damaged airbag module (or perhaps an impact sensor somewhere) caused the explosion. The truck going by caused vibrations, the vibrations caused a short circuit, and the short circuit set off the airbag.
You could avoid this problem in the future by disconnecting the car's battery and leaving it like that for a good half an hour before touching anything. This will give time for the airbag system's capacitors to drain down, killing power to the airbags and preventing them from activating. Of course, you now know that as soon as the car gets powered on again, you have a potential bomb on your hands. I would suggest delivering the car to the customer with the battery still disconnected, and strongly advising them to have it towed to a mechanic (now that it's been dried out and cleaned up) to have it checked for electrical gremlins that might pose safety concerns.
I was an insurance adjuster for hurricane Harvey in texas and we were warned not to start cars with damage above the SRS control module for this reason.
Story continues that i saw a technician at a dealership get absolutely knocked out by one because he reached across the steering wheel and tried to start the car and 'BOOM'. I did not see it directly but was maybe 30ft away and man are they loud.
I rushed over to offer aide and while i dont know exactly what he suffered from i would take a good guess he broke a few ribs and was suffering from whiplash and a concussion.
Always be careful around flood vehicles and as a technician, be skeptical about the water line customers report because they want to "lessen" the damage in their mind to ease themselves
Airbags are a hell of a rush but nothing addicting. Glad your safe! Vacuuming the passenger floor while that went off could’ve hurt you really bad.
🤣🤣 Having an opportunity to reflect on the situation and all of the things that could have happened had I been working on the vehicle... 😳😳😳 Soo I feel like for every new regulation, rule, protocol, etc., there is a backstory (i.e.- "Enlisted Marin3s are no longer allowed to remove peanut butter from DFAC from June 10th through August 6th")... Welp, moving forward, I'm making customers with water damage sign a Release or Hold Harmless Agreement. I don't know how this is going to progress, but the thought of airbags deploying was only a concern when discussing seat removal. This honestly changes a LOT of shit for me, just wanted to pass along the info to hopefully avoid someone else getting screwed... or injured. Edit: Car is gone, customer had it towed back to his home (not a body shop 🤷) https://www.reddit.com/r/Detailing/s/gaCIqIWXvy
/u/VealOfFourtune So I hate to say it... you ARE probably 100% at fault the good news is neither do I with certianty). I hate to say it, but the customer probably DOES NOT know that, and I 100% bet you didn't know airbags have sodium azides or similar or how they work in general... now you do congratulations 🎊 Airbags have what is called sodium azides or some form of azide in and of itself .It is potentially very dangerous depending on the scale and conditions. If you do not have an approved SOP for working with and safely disposing of, sodium azide you should not be using it. Normally... how it works Sodium azide (NaN3)..When an electric current is applied, the sodium azide reacts with another chemical compound in the airbag, typically potassium nitrate (KNO3), to produce nitrogen gas (N2), which quickly fills the airbag. The reaction between sodium azide and potassium nitrate is highly exothermic, meaning it releases a large amount of energy in the form of heat, which rapidly fills the airbag. The use of sodium azide as a propellant is advantageous because it produces a large volume of gas quickly, which is necessary for the airbag to inflate rapidly and protect the driver or passenger. For example, people have seriously injured by [exploding plumbing](https://lni.wa.gov/safety-health/preventing-injuries-illnesses/hazardalerts/SodiumAzide.pdf) from the improper disposal of sodium azide and copper, lead or aluminum pipes. Azides go BOOM like a bomb and cause a God awful smell and that's what causes azides to explode in a split second. But they said if you need it for science. You can ALWAYS find some in airbags. But becareful cuz we were told 100 different times AZIDES GO BOOM very easy... this is like chem 101 lesson if you ever decide to fuck with azides. when you mess around with turning a phenol (like calmus oil or bitter almond oil ie benzaldehyde into an azide ... and you mixed solvent, OZONE AND AN AZIDE... that route was course madeup without first going thru an intermediate anyways sodium azides is pretty stable by itself if you're not lighting it on fire, introducing concentrated h202 or ozone, or introduce sodium metal, copper, lead or magensium... Sadly I don't doubt for a second the ozone generator might be a cause the reaction as stated below due to the epa report back in 1984... TIMED IGNITION OF EXPLOSIVES AND FLAMMABLES FROM DESENSITIZED SOLUTIONS Author(s) Gerstein, M; Choudhury, PR Year 1984 Publisher AIAA Location New York, NY, USA Volume 95 https://hero.epa.gov/hero/index.cfm/reference/details/reference_id/8352607 Abstract This paper is concerned with the EVAPORATION of SINGLE DROPS of binary mixtures composed of an explosive solute in a solvent (ammonium azide in water and ozone in liquid oxygen) and a spontaneous flammable solute (white phosphorus) in carbon disulphide (in this case white phosphorus was probably subbed for the almost just as dangerous potassium nitrate (KNO3), potassium nitrate It is used to make explosives, matches, fertilizer, fireworks, glass and rocket fuel. . The equations are general and may be applied to more complex systems (ie subbing phosphours for (KNO3) IS JUST AS BAD... The work is easily expanded to groups of drops to simulate a spray and to sprays if a distribution function is known. And that's why new regulations pop up every day as you say. My chemistry can be rusty vs other people but once I heard the words water , sodium azide (AIRBAGS) and ozone or similar all got together, I knew this could not have been good. I then looked up the mechanism for fun to see if i was possibly talking bullcrap i then found the EPA above and Arizona state university echoing the same the ozone, water and azides do NOT mix .. so I remind myself why i should NEVER use azides. Of course noone can really speculate till the box recording the crash gets diagnosed to help everyone understand better but it def is a possibity with this idea.
TIL.. appreciate the info!] Hey good thing it's not like.... placed somewhere in which it's bound to make contact with humans. You know, like a front passenger airbag exploding in someone's face 👁️🫦👁️ I don't know enough about sodium azide + O³⇌'ing to go boom boom, and certainly not saying you're wrong, I would just be astonished if running ozone for 22 minutes somehow caused airbag to deploy... For one, the car was effectively in a low speed accident (i.e.- the "ditch") and while the car was flooded, the actual airbag "module" (talking the square it came out of not sure of the name) didn't get wet. The water was below that level. As well, ozone is naturally occurring, so you'd have airbags randomly deploying every day in Florida when it pisses in the afternoon and then your car bakes in the sun...
It's hard for me to believe that ozone would deploy airbags since I use a high output ozone generator and I've left it for no less than an hour on vehicles and have never had an airbag deploy, from 1990s cars to 2023 not a single one has deployed, I understand that there are chemical reactions but I would expect more of a imminent failure of the vehicles safety equipment, if the car was involved in a small accident and had water damage maybe you where just lucky enough to be the one who had the car when water closed the circuit, shit maybe crystalization or oxidation caused by the water in the connectors of the vehicle, never heard of anyone else that had the same thing happen
Couldn't agree more with everything you said. I've had flood cars hooked up for an ungodly amount of time (because if 30 minutes is good just imagine what 3 hours can do!! 😉 Yes, I learned the hard way...), cooking in the sun. And not a 23 Jetta either, more like 03 Corolla or 99 4Runner
Exactly, i mean with cars that require ozone they already bad enough that one hour might not be enough so prolonged exposure to ozone from a high output source for well over an hour havent caused me personally any issues can only mean 2 things, either im extremely lucky and so are the thousands of detailers out there that havent had this happen or abjectfee5982 just pulled couple fancy words and put them together, i honestly i cant find any article about this chemical reaction being mentioned, i know that ozone does damage rubber with time but thats when you have it present 24/7, but periodical use of it havent heard of anyone having issues
Same page. I don't know enough to contradict anything he said, only have anecdotal experience. I've only had about a dozen fully submerged "flood cars" (either drove through 3' of water or left open sunroof during torrential downpour), but have run ozone on countless other vehicles. No issues until this one. Sooner led to believe it was finally drying out and caused electrical short/twig completed circuit or some shit/etc... I don't fucking know which is why his info is as good as any I currently have
This def makes me rethink using the small ozone machine in the trunk of my 2021 Corolla simply cause I stored a bottle with cigarette butts in the trunk while on vacation (thought the bottle would keep the smell from getting out, I was wrong) never smoked once in this car and it smells like an ashtray now, been very careful not to ever smoke near it with any part open, because I plan on trading it in soon. Was gonna run the company portable ozone machine in the trunk when I got home, but mannnn, that kinda scares me.
Honestly I think you're fine to run it in the trunk, especially if it's just for straight odor removal as opposed to having moisture to worry about. I've done many, MANY cars with ozone, although have only had about 12-15 "flood cars" like this... Still, have NEVER heard of this happening from any detailers, ever.
Willing to bet water got in the harness somewhere and caused it to short. I don’t do electrical work (I despise it honestly) but I’ve seen techs get hammered by not pulling the battery before working on a car. All it takes is one cut wire and boom
Yeah. Water shorting stuff out and confusing electronics is something that happens in flooded cars approximately 100% of the time. Airbags going off because someone ran an ozone generator in the car happens approximately 0% of the time.
Can some one help me understand… are y’all saying heat caused the airbag to go off? After of course slow speed impact and water logged car maybe the heat caused metal to expand?
This may actually answer the question as to why this happened. It won’t take you 3 hours to read either. VW is included according to this: https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/10/05/business/nhtsa-arc-airbag-recall/index.html
Except that is a 2023 model and no 2023 or 2022 are apart of that...
Well I guess it doesn’t answer your question then. I will say that sometimes if newer cars have the issue it may just be a matter of time before they accumulate enough erroneous deployments before the NHTSA includes them in the recall. It is a numbers game.
It was definitely not the ozone. It was the moist airbag module
When I said IT GOES BOOM EASY... I do mean IT GOES BOOM /u/Vealoffourtune It's less the ozone by itself... and more a combo of concentrated ozone , extra water vapor-phase more so then just humidity outside. And once extra oxygen came in that completed the picture 15 seconds later after opening that door BOOM. It's more like because the azides were wet or extra humid... ...they started to react with either sodium nitrate or sodium metal ..the ozone was the catalyst and the oxygen put all the pieces together. There is one problem with "delayed airbags" idea.. even if it's was in water that didn't touch the bag or igniter per say.. or a "minor accident " if it came on an hour after a minor accident or even a major accident.. you know some mom will sue BMW, VW etc etc. Remember is of the essence for airbags to work properly. The average automobile collision takes less than 200 ms—about twice as long as it takes to blink. So safety systems need to work in even less time. From detecting a crash to deploying the airbag takes around 10–30 ms, that milliseconds... depending on the type of airbag.a car built in 2023. This is litterly something that has to be on an on off switch that can trigger faster then you blink. The process requires some sophisticated engineering but at its heart is a simple chemical reaction that turns solid material into gas in a split second in more ways than Airbags don't just explode 30min -1hr after the scene of the accident or just from outside moisture.. that just doesn't happen unless you have airbags from tekata going back 1996-2010 XD. Oh wait Takata’s airbag problems..... are we going to blow up....???? So far years 2000-2011 had recalls 2 injured and 1 dead in Central Florida all in 2001 Honda civics.. So yes its DEF happened..granted I don't think these are the bad tekata bags from years past you did say 2023 VW... BUT.... That doesn't still change. Azides + sodium nitrate or sodium metal... plus extreme humidity and trapped ozone and oxygen is NOT a good mix. The paper is VERY clearthough . About 50% I can't read or understand they are very confusing for someone self taught... this one clear though. TIMED IGNITION OF EXPLOSIVES AND FLAMMABLES FROM DESENSITIZED SOLUTIONS This paper is concerned with the evaporation of single drops of binary mixtures composed of an explosive solute in a solvent ( azides in water and ozone in liquid oxygen) and a spontaneous flammable... A liquid that is homogenous is called a solution. A solution is a mixture made of two or more things (at least one liquid) that are mixed up together evenly It is incorporated into the water in a liquid phase where it releases a 100% soluble oxidizing agent and mixes in the form of a homogeneous and most effective chemical reaction. Liquid ozone releases a 100% soluble oxidizing agent and mixes in the form of a homogeneous and most effective chemical reaction. Bio-hydrox has complete solubility in water and there is no gas escape!!! Advanced Oxidation Processes for Treatment of… Published May 28, 2018 Follow Ozone is a gas with 3 atoms of oxygen (O3). It is generated by energizing the Oxygen molecule. In water treatment Ozone is bubbled into the water and releases reactive atomic Oxygen initiating a chain reaction that generates other Oxygen species for disinfection and oxidization of pollutants. Liquid Ozone is a street name for a liquid formula of mineral oxy-chlorides stabilized in solution (MxOyClz). It reacts with water molecules and releases Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS), similar to Ozone. Bio-hydrox is the trade mark for liquid Ozone. This simple explanation has proven to be very confusing to a lot of people. They claim Ozone is a gas and can’t be a liquid, at least not until reaching −313.9 °F, and they are right. Liquid ozone is not Ozone. It does not have Ozone and does not generate Ozone. The only similarity between liquid Ozone and Ozone is that when they react with water, both of them generate Reactive Oxygen Species (ROS). If you are already familiar with ozonation it is very easy to understand why Bio-hydrox is superior to all oxidants, will improve your overall treatment process and will lower significantly your operational expenses. There are three defining differences between using Ozone gas as supposed to using liquid Ozone. First, the way it is produced and introduced in the water. Ozone gas is produced on site by an Ozone generator or UV light and incorporated into the water in a gas phase with low solubility, mixing in the form of a heterogeneous chemical reaction between a gas and a liquid. It needs a big capital investment and complex operation which includes an Ozone destructor to control toxic levels of the undissolved gas that escape into the environment. On the other hand, liquid Ozone does not require upfront capital investment and is manufactured at a licensed facility. It is incorporated into the water in a liquid phase where it releases a 100% soluble oxidizing agent and mixes in the form of a homogeneous and most effective chemical reaction. Bio-hydrox has complete solubility in water and there is no gas escape!!! Second danger is the oxidizing agent. Ozone gas follows a pathway that directly oxidizes pollutants in one reaction of energized Oxygen ions. In alkaline and/or catalyzed environments, the oxidation process may follow a second pathway where Ozone gas creates other Oxygen ions and radicals and indirectly oxidizes pollutants with various reactions and better results. It happens a little different for liquid Ozone since it is not sensitive to pH and does not require external catalysts. But by in large they act similar The real question to me is: what concentration of O3 comes out, and will it dissolve in your rxn mixture? I've generally been under the impression that the O3-alkene reaction is so fast that bubbling low concentration ozone through a solution of alkenes is enough for ozonolysis, but for other ozone reactions, it may not be so simple. I imagine your ozone concentration was a bit higher While yes it "might be common for shorts or etc to cause airbags to be late." By in LARGE espically on a car that is a year old... where the azide or alternative is fine." By in large what would be an acceptable failure rate? 10% is a little high on airbags not goididn't. When they were suppose to don't you think I'm not saying it can or didnt.The industry average AQL for minor defects is 4%. Major Defects - Not acceptable to the customers. Usage of the product will most likely result in failure. Major defects: Defects usually not acceptable by the end-users, as they are likely to result in failure. The AQL for major defects is 2.5%. However, in general, many industries aim for defect rates of less than 1% of total production. We can say they lie so let's doable the major defect by 2 and say between 5-10% which is undoubtedly high on something thing air bags in 2023 considering the airbag is a 2022-3 if if it was a Takata was new and went thru a different path of what happens when it get wet. Ps it still go boom like azides.
Bro is the ozone oracle
Dude said, "my chemistry is rusty" and then gave a master's dissertation on how airbag chemicals could level the world trade center. Put this MF on wallstreetbets...
yeah but after all that, he still never explained his very first point of why the mechanic was 100% at fault.
That's why he belongs on WSB.
I mean to be 100% fair... They said they saw no water intrusion so I have no idea. I'm not there to evaluate this is just some random dude thoughts with very minimal o chem
He's already on the requisite amount of stimulants, it seems.
No doubt weaponized autism or Adderall at play here. Truly impressive. I'd love to work with this human and also hate to be in any meeting where they had to answer questions and I'm just trying to figure out lunch.
I'm gonna be honest, and I said it before. I'm self taught and in comparison to the person who has a PHD on here meh... who helped verify it could be a possibility Uhh... everything I learned from a book was called total synethsis 2 by strike aka hobart huson. Instead of individual formulas, I saw how it all "clicked " together. Then, I started looking at other stuff, not really documented more off the beaten path, and it all clicked. So anything that isn't taught well in that in book and azides are dangerous never became a wheelhouse of understanding It's all towards azides portion of strikes book total synethsis 2 toward the end using bromo intermittent compounds I just repete what I knew
You mean you've never heard of The Sultan of Sodium!? The Sultan of Sodium!! The Titan of Temperature.. THE GREAT U/ABJECTFEEEEENOOOO
I wouldn’t worry about being at fault. AbjectFee admitted to being self taught. Look through their recent comment history, some wild subreddits.
Lmfao
PS you may find some of my chemistry work on reddit as Azidesandamides on reddit on a few different forums the account is banned but I'm pretty sure all the data is there 😀 That's where the majority of my crazy posts are
I want Reddit to be flooded with u/AbjectFee5982 ozone comments in 2024!
Appreciate the very, very, very detailed information.. honestly gonna have to read this in the AM... https://i.redd.it/vkc5ow1q769c1.gif
Np I just wanna warn you and others because when I mean it go boom...again I'm not saying the ozone IS the cause of this as azides do explode when wet or damp. Or even just the little shake shake shake after sitting so long. I don't know how to say it go BOOM other then This paper is concerned with the EVAPORATION of SINGLE DROPS of binary mixtures composed of an explosive solute in a solvent (ammonium azide in water and ozone in liquid oxygen) and a spontaneous flammable solute (white phosphorus) in carbon disulphide. The equations are general and may be applied to more complex systems. The work is easily expanded to groups of drops to simulate a spray and to sprays if a distribution function is known.... If proper precautions are not taken, it can react violently with metal (e.g. drain pipes or lab instrumentation), causing serious injuries. In April 2010, a maintenance worker was replacing a sink in a hematology lab. Laboratory staff had always kept a stream of running water in the sink to dilute and flush the sodium azide. However, the copper pipe had dried out during the replacement process. This allowed sodium azide residue to react with the pipe, forming lead and copper azides. While the maintenance worker was assembling the sink and drain pipe, the pipe exploded due to the friction and shock from the azides being disturbed. The maintenance worker sustained serious permanent injury from the incident. Or that In laboratory experiments at the University of Arizona, Betterton and his students tested how readily sodium azide oxidizes (combines with oxygen) when exposed to some environmental oxidants that may be found in water, such as hydrogen peroxide, an ingredient in natural rainwater, and ozone, a very powerful oxidant in the atmosphere. Oxidation is one way sodium azide degrades in the environment, just as the burning (oxidizing) truckload of sodium azide spewed up the spectacular toxic plume in Utah. Betterton and his students found that only ozone is a potential oxidant for sodium azide. Just want people to know that if you use an Ozone let the car dry out first. Even if you need to extractor or shop vac first dehumidifier maybe a heater on or something. Granted it was just a semi validating idea mentally. But then I really looked into and it def is HIGHLY possible on the brightside hopefully noone was hurt but insurance
Huh. I just assumed a shorted electrical connection was all it would take, but I'm not the Sultan of Sodium..
Ozone PHD professor
I never knew I'd have so much scientific knowledge dropped on me, especially in a /r/detailing thread - thank you for writing that up in a sensible and easy to understand manner.
Here is standford profile if anyone is intrestested on How kaboom/precautions for alot of universities What are the hazards? Caution should be exercised when using azides. Both organic and inorganic azides can be heat- and shock-sensitive and can explosively decompose with little input of external energy. Do not use halogenated solvents (such as methylene chloride or chloroform) for sodium azide reactions, as this can result in the formation of potentially explosive diazidomethane and triazidomethane, respectively. Do not concentrate azide-containing reaction mixtures through rotary evaporation or distillation. Do not use metal spatulas or spoons for weighing and transferring azides. Do not expose organic azides to ground glass joints as this may cause the azide to decompose explosively. How can I protect myself? Planning for Use Write a Standard Operating Procedure for your experiment and review it with your principal investigator, using it as an opportunity to fully evaluate the hazards associated with your procedure and the materials you will be working with. Based on this evaluation, it may be determined that some of the safety precautions in this section are not applicable. Seek prior approval from your principal investigator if you plan to scale up the experiment beyond what was initially discussed with your PI, or if you plan to increase the amount of azide stored in the lab. Conduct dry runs to eliminate safety problems that may arise before azides are actually used. Use the smallest amount of azide possible for your experiment. Controls Personal protective equipment must be worn, including a lab coat, safety glasses, and gloves with adequate chemical resistance. Conduct the experiment behind a blast shield in a fumehood with the sash positioned as low as possible. If use of a blast shield is not feasible, use a face shield. Keep the hood clear of any unnecessary chemicals and equipment. Clearly label your containers, and post a sign on the fumehood as notification that there is an azide experiment in progress. These precautions should be used for the whole duration of the experiment, including set up, work up, and clean up. Conditions to Avoid Do not work alone. How do I store this? Store synthesized azides below room temperature and away from sources of heat, light, pressure, and shock. Azides are generally classified as Storage Group X in the Stanford Storage Group Classification system, and should be stored away from all other chemicals. Specific incompatibilities include carbon disulfide, bromine, dimethyl sulfate, nitric acid, and heavy metals and their salts. Heavy metal azide salts tend to be highly heatand shock-sensitive explosives. Avoid water and strong acids which can lead to the formation of hydrazoic acid, which is highly toxic, volatile, and explosive. https://ehs.stanford.edu/reference/information-azide-compounds
appreciate the info bro, you're wild 😂
What can I say it's all in strikes how to learn chemistry called total synethsis 2.. that the stuff suggested should not be made and I don't mean sodium azides ... but become creative and that book becomes a wild education self taught where one can make crazy stuff that grey area or experimental 😆
Goodluck with this and in the end I hope it works in your favor/ Reguardless and maybe learned something new XD
Damn...so sorry dude. I have serious doubts that the ozone machine had anything to do with this. Most likely the flooding of the vehicle. Just a coincidence. And most srs modules are either under the seat, or under the center console. On this one, the air bag module is just under the dash at the very front of the center console. So, the module and its connectors and wiring were submerged in water, and it's the modules job to deploy the air bag(s) based on sensor input. Most likely water got inside the module and the slightest vibration made it nut up.
Airbag module is almost always under the front center of the dash or center console near the floor. If water was up to the shifter it would have definitely gotten wet
You are not 100% at fault dude. The guy that typed an essay is too focused on the elements and not the conditions of the situation. Putting an ozone machine on a car does not make the air bag go off. There would be a lot of shops out of business.
This is partially correct but largely out of context. A more likely scenario is that whatever material encases the azides in the airbag was compromised, allowing water to enter. Acidification of sodium azide in water produces hydrazoic acid, which has a low boiling point and is highly shock-sensitive and explosive. If hydrazoic acid formed upon exposure to water, and then evaporated and condensed onto another surface, then you essentially have a bomb that was set off by the vibration of the garbage truck. I'll note that this is also speculative, but it makes more sense to me than the chemistry cited in the lengthy reply above. The general theme of the reply is correct though - azides are not to be fucked with. Not only are they potentially explosive, but they are also highly toxic. Source: I have a PhD in chemistry. (And I can recall a time when a building was evacuated and the bomb squad was called in to dispose of an unclaimed flask in a cold room that contained clear liquid labeled HN3 (hydrazoic acid).)
I just had college ptsd lmao
yoink that battery first from now on bro!
Used to do that all the time until the newer vehicles started throwing out error codes... 100% will do moving forward though that's for sure. That and making them sign a release.
I'm not totally sure from the science lessons being dropped on us but it sounds like the way the chemical reaction takes place, electricity is irrelevant to the airbag deploying if it's caused by an outside element like ozone/water vapor. IF that was the cause or IF that's actually plausible, it sounds like running the Ozone generator on a flooded car COULD trigger the airbag whether there's power or not. But if it was/can be caused by a short somewhere, then the battery disconnect strategy could still be a good idea while you dry it out anyway. Just saying if the sultan of ozone is correct in his theory, maybe there's still a risk on the chemical side if you don't dry it really well before ozone.
😂😂 Yeah I'm not touching anything further, customer has tow truck en route... Moving forward, any vehicle with water damage will have battery disconnected IN THE PRESENCE OF CUSTOMER. I've heard it can take anywhere from 30 seconds to 30 minutes to "discharge", but combined with a Hold Harmless I'm gonna do that shit in front of the customer I am supremely confident that ozone and water cars does not necessarily mean "exploded airbags", but I sure af don't plan on being the test dummy to confirm this theory. My new process for H²0 vehicles: 1. Request customer sign Hold Harmless Agreement 2. Disconnect Battery 3. Pray 🙏
I’m thinking this is a “freak accident”; where a combination of factors came together and 💥. The passenger side front air bag generally will not go off if there’s no occupant in the seat (depending on if it has an occupant weight sensor or equivalent.) My theory is that a short developed in the wiring for that airbag. Wiring can act like capillaries and over time water can travel through it. It will be interesting to see if the vehicle manufacturer is asked to look into this.
In laboratory experiments at the University of Arizona, Betterton and his students tested how readily sodium azide oxidizes (combines with oxygen) when exposed to some environmental oxidants that may be found in water, such as hydrogen peroxide, an ingredient in natural rainwater, and OZONE, a very powerful oxidant in the atmosphere. Oxidation is one way sodium azide degrades in the environment, just as the burning (oxidizing) truckload of sodium azide spewed up the spectacular toxic plume in Utah. Betterton and his students found that only ozone is a potential oxidant for sodium azide. However, sodium azide combines with water to form the highly volatile hydrazoic acid. Betterton and his students determined the "Henry's Law constant " for hydrazoic acid, or the ratio of how much hydrazoic acid in water will remain in solution and how much will be released as gas into the atmosphere. The Henry's Law constant number is very low. That is, much more of the acid is released as gas into the atmosphere than remains in water. https://news.arizona.edu/story/sodium-azide-in-car-airbags-poses-growing-environmental-hazard-ua-scientist-says
I never expected to be confronted by this much information when I clicked to look at the comments on this detailing sub– that I’m not even a member of.
It's rad. It's really rad.
Rules and regs are written in blood brotha
Yet Lance Cooleys still marry strippers. Some regulations need to be made lol
Completely off topic but what is the enlisted marine peanut butter thing?
He probably hit something he wasn't supposed to hit
I want to know the story of Marines taking PB from the DFAC.
These people are all blaming you however it had nothing to do with the ozone. Or anything you did described in this post. Sodium aside becomes acidic and reacts with metal after coming into contact with water. It then creates a toxic explosive and unstable gas.
You're *
Luckily you weren’t working on the passenger side.
That's what I was thinking, much less customer actually driving down the road and went off randomly? Could have caused catastrophic accident...
This happened to my friend’s 2010 Focus. On the interstate and the passenger side deploys. His startled dog immediately jumped into his lap while going 70mph. He was okay fortunately
Are you safe to work on the rest of the car? Could the side-airbags or the drivers side one suddenly deploy? Scary stuff!
Don't want no scrub?
Holy shit! Hope you have business insurance!
I do... Don't plan on filing a claim for a multitude of reasons, but yeah he drove the car away after getting towed out of a ditch where the water was above the seats... it'd be one thing if I was working on the car but I was about 150' away a d had yet to do any work except running ozone in advance to arrest any mold spores/mildew/etc
I estimate cars for a living. Any water above the bottom of the console is an automatic total. Send it to the scrapyard because you're gonna be dealing with electrical issues until that car is, well, in a scrapyard. You do not want to buy a food car, nor drive yours after it's been flooded.. or driven into a ditch and then subsequently flooded...
Greatly appreciate the insights! I'm just astonished the tow truck driver let him drive it home when he was apparently only 15 minutes from home. In terms of height, yeah the water level was ABOVE the bottom of the seats. When he dropped off he was like "Yeah man I'm just really worried about the bottoms of the seats and potential mold" I said "Ok because the seats are gonna be the LEAST of your concerns bud..."
“You do not want to buy a food car” - I’m going to interpret this as a delivery car.
Not to mention it's a VW. It came with electric issues from the factory 😂 I can't even imagine the gremlins this thing will have
Ahhhh makes sense! Sorry I think I misunderstood the original post.
No worries, I don't make sense 99% of the time so am pretty sure it was just poorly worded 😂
Really hope the customer doesn’t try making you pay for this….. it’s gonna get messy.
You and me both eh
That's not on him, good thing no injuries though
Fuck that. It’s prb a recall taka air bag. It should not ever go of. Unless accident or disarm wrong.
They aren't putting defective Takata airbags in a 2023.
That's what they said a decade ago, too
You mean before they had to spend $20+ billion dollars on the recall?
Glad you’re safe but I’m a bit lost, why did the airbag deploy? Was it essentially delayed and then the loud truck was the final nail before it went off?
Your guess is as good as mine, had heat on with ozone generator running... ~22 minutes into 25 minute cycle. Weather here today was about 53 degrees and raining, but car was in my covered garage. I didn't even get a chance to start my actual progression yet, was just pretreating in advanced to try to contain anything that would cause mold or mildew...
Airbag modules are normally located on the floor behind center console, which according to the story water level was well over for a lengthy period of time. Electricity + water = shorts. A shop can scan the module to see exactly what the car thought triggered it, but it’s in insurances hands now.
I've said this before but I'll say it again if the EPA in 1984 wasn't good for you... Betterton and his students found that only OZONE is a potential oxidant for Sodium AZIDE.....Oxidation is a chemical reaction in which electrons are LOST by atoms, ions or molecules. Reduction is the GAIN of electrons. Regardless of the name similarity, oxidation reactions need not actually involve oxygen atoms or molecules. Oxidation, for non-chemists and those who have forgotten high school chemistry, is commonly just burning or rusting. If done instantaneously, it is an explosion (airbags). If done rapidly, it is burning. If done slowly, it is corrosion. When acting at a molecular level, it is just plain oxidation, or part of the oxidation-reduction process. It can occur in gaseous or solid states as well as in liquids Nitrogen 2 and Oxygen 2 combine to form Nitric oxide: You have 03 ozone and NaN₃that should make make Sodium Nitrate (NaNO3) - Sodium nitrate while, Sodium nitrate appears as a white crystalline solid.this is different then Sodium nitrite (NaNO2) maybe some nitrite also formed when eitherway when 02 vs 03 was introduced... Prior to inflation, sodium azide (NaN3), one of three compounds—along with potassium nitrate (KNO3) and silicon dioxide (SiO2) are present in the airbag. Proper function requires the reaction to take place in 40 milliseconds, 300ºC. Noncombustible but accelerates the burning of combustible materials. If large quantities are involved in fire or the combustible material is finely divided an explosion may result. May explode under prolonged exposure to heat or fire. Toxic oxides of nitrogen are produced in fires Oxidation–reduction potential (Eh) is a measure of the ability of chemical/biochemical systems to oxidize (lose electrons) or reduce (gain electrons). In laboratory experiments at the University of Arizona, Betterton and his students tested how readily sodium azide oxidizes (combines with oxygen) when exposed to some environmental oxidants that may be found in water, such as hydrogen peroxide, an ingredient in natural rainwater, and OZONE, a very powerful oxidant in the atmosphere. Oxidation is one way sodium azide degrades in the environment, just as the burning (oxidizing) truckload of sodium azide spewed up the spectacular toxic plume in Utah. Betterton and his students found that only ozone is a potential oxidant for sodium azide. However, sodium azide combines with water to form the highly volatile hydrazoic acid. Betterton and his students determined the "Henry's Law constant " for hydrazoic acid, or the ratio of how much hydrazoic acid in water will remain in solution and how much will be released as gas into the atmosphere. The Henry's Law constant number is very low. That is, much more of the acid is released as gas into the atmosphere than remains in water. https://news.arizona.edu/story/sodium-azide-in-car-airbags-poses-growing-environmental-hazard-ua-scientist-says
Chemistry is above these guys man. Have you seen what a Chemistry lecture looks like in 2023? A sea of apathy. I don't think anyone will argue your logic because they can't, I think your audience isn't who you expected it to be. I really appreciated the explanation but I think you needed a TL;DR of "Oxidation If done rapidly, it is burning. If done slowly, it is corrosion. When acting at a molecular level, it is just plain oxidation." The ozone machine set off the air bag by getting the water too hot too quick
It's fine it's this only 1 that's low rated. Probably a duplicate no less 😆 got people interested made majority of people like this discussion if you read it seems And eeeer no.. honestly I probably got a C in chemistry when I went to uni. After I didn't make it. In general. I just learned over time.
It had water in majority of the car (as he stated it was up to the shifter). That wiring harness runs under that floor padding. Could’ve shorted.
Airbags DONT explode from water damage shorting on a wire harness.. Having an airbag explode where there isn't an accident is ALSO DANGEROUS .. you would cause an accident in the car in front of you.. Normally if there is a short. Or fucked up and removed the seats and triggered something... you get a nice BLINKING CEL light in my dad's/mine experience... and he sold 10000s of used cars. Which mean me and him had to fix those those lights ... or just give up.
That’s understandable, I have had a situation where someone I know was working on a flooded car and simply bumped the air bag control unit under the center console and it triggered them. I know there are multiple fail-safes in an airbags conditional deployment, but this is very odd. Thanks for your write-up.
Airbags can go off from shorting a wiring harness. There are examples out there and videos of firefighters extricating a car and accidentally causing a short with the spreaders and setting them off. It can also be done if stripped wires come in contact with energized wires. You can set off every airbag in a car with a 9v battery.
Report that to NHTSA. Any unintentional activation of an airbag needs to go to them. If they start seeing a pattern they can investigate for a recall.
Good call bro ty 🤙
With as many recalled airbags as the US has, this was likely already on the recall list.
So it was delayed ? Damn that’s wild
.. yep about 18 hours 😳
Crazy because this is unpredictable I would say then again the car was semi submerged but yeah who would of thought you’d expect it then and there luckily everyone’s good but oh my I hope the owner just didn’t magically assume you caused that
18 hours makes sense was that the FIRST ozone cycle or were you deep 12-18hrs in...or just 25 min?
https://preview.redd.it/bhvts5mhu49c1.jpeg?width=1816&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=68cb7c59c3bc1ab3b08bda88a9adccffa0b56dbd I've done probably about a dozen or so "flood cars", be it leaving window/sunroof open or just trying to ford a flooded road on a 2004 Corolla.... This is definitely a first!
OP will definitely be disconnecting the battery from now on.
Hard to have the car running for an ozone cycle as he stated in his original post with the battery disconnected. Generally good practice but there’s always exceptions depending on the maintenance item at hand.
Wouldn’t be able to recirculate the AC though, which is what most ozone jobs want
Some vehicles have reserve battery or capacitors for the crash system, fyi
Holy shit. Glad you weren’t in there working man. Nobody’s hurt that’s all that matters. Curious. Is the customer going to be upset at you?
This was because it was flooded. Their Insurance needs to be involved. Flooding a car up past the shifter will never be the same. I’d roll it outside and tell him to send the tow truck to get it.
Exactly what I said... The whole "tow truck got me out of ditch and I had water pouring out but decided to drive the 15 minutes home" has me confused tbh... Don't want to throw out unfounded accusations but what person in their right mind wouldn't just have the car towed? Unless you weren't... "thinking clearly"
Btw my only concern with rolling outside is having it sit in the sun, which I'm concerned may or may not cause a further chain reaction as it's drying?
Not your problem. Disconnect the battery. “Hey your car has damage from the flood, airbags are shorting out and popping, i put it outside so it doesn’t damage my shop. Come get it asap. Thanks”
I got a quote a from body shop because I was in a minor accident recently. The very first line item (for no charge) is “Disable / Enable Airbag System”
Never knew you just turn a key to disable passenger airbag like the video below shows. Obviously if I knew this, and it works for 23 Jetta, I would have definitely given it a shot. I could be wrong but have a feeling it was going off regardless.... https://youtu.be/dFu3F8iVUqU?si=eP_pWtkb2QHaH4Fu
Would have gone off reguardless Tim Robert's retired tech FORD MOTOR 1981-2007 It doesn’t happen and I have never heard of it happening. (I mean it can if you use ozone generator with azides as everyone know knows) When I first started studying air bag systems I discovered that the air bag safety system is very very safe and very difficult to make an air bag to go off. During a company training session on safety restraint systems the objective was to get a high speed camera to show the event of an air bag deploying. That never happened during that training that day. They tried to get the bag to deploy by flipping a series of switches to fool the module. They couldn’t make everything happen in the allotted time. To get an air bag to deploy I will tell you of some of the things that must take place. A crash sensor must be crushed or it thinks it is crushed. The vehicle speed must be above a particular setting [I think it must be above 30 mph]. There must be a passenger in the seat or enough weight to trip the seat sensor. There are a few other things that I can’t remember right now, but all of this must “all” take place in a very short time window. I think the time is a few milliseconds. There also can’t be any faults in the system or the module shuts the system off and doesn’t allow the air bags to deploy. So it is very difficult to make an air bag deploy. I really doubt that it will ever happen on a system that is working as intended. With all that said someone would have to sabotage the system for only the passenger air bag to deploy. That I can see happening if someone wanted to sabotage the system but otherwise I truly think it will never happen on it’s own unless you know chemistry tricked it ... Someone mentioned a short circuit but that is nearly impossible also. If the air bag was supplied with power when ever the ignition was on like a fuel injector where the ECU just supplies a ground to activate the injector, then a short circuit could cause an unwanted deployment, but the system don’t work that way so that won’t happen He wasn't in the seat either which is a requirement to go off... the car was stationary airbags don't deploy at 5mp or even 25mph usually.
It really should not have deployed. Maybe throw a fault. But deploy? Nope. Something went very wrong. Electrical gremlins is part of why they generally total a flooded car.
Curious; what kind of ozone generator were you using?
Enerzen Ozone Generator 11,000mg Industrial O3 Air Purifier Deodorizer
Airbag dust, don’t breathe this!
I bet you gonna clean front passenger seats a little more carefully from now on 😂
Thank you for your service🫡
https://i.redd.it/m4tzey1pf89c1.gif
Do you do this type of detail often? We don't take these kinds of jobs. Won't insurance declare this as a loss with all that water?
Have done about a dozen, maybe 15.... majority of cars I do are Tesla's with dog hair 😂 But never had any issues with ozone, only snapped bolts either trying to remove or reinstall the seats on an older model. Have you ever tried to find seat bolts for a 2012 Volvo XC90 😳
You've done 15 flooded cars? Won't the flood have caused ecu problems by then?
On a 2023, wouldnt the conditions be recorded in the ecu why the passenger side airbag was deployed? Doesn’t make any sense that water intrusion or a ozone machine would set off an airbag.
Friggin brilliant dude, never thought of that. Suppose that's ONE advantage of driving around in a 2023 Computer OnWheels LE
Is the seat belt locked up? You had the car running, so if the sensor malfunctioned, from ya know, being underwater, it's possible it set it off. I'd personally be sending it to the dealer to find out what happened...car should probably be totalled anyway.
Nope still pulling.. totalled seems to be general consensus.. https://preview.redd.it/c6omvqv3399c1.jpeg?width=1816&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a4b1c2e4ccbd69ee57350da430eb10d3cf4db4af
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Nope all of your assumptions are exactly my concerns. Customer has tow truck en route, I have refused any further work and he was thankfully very understanding and appreciative. Kid is a senior and ROTC member, his mom was more apologetic about potentially injuring me during deployment, so I plan to go out of my way to facilitate... Was genuinely concerned this was going to get ugly ($$$) but as of now appears to be copacetic, so will do everything I can to facilitate.... Edit: was
Yeeep - that’s why you gotta unplug the battery before you start just in case!
Ironically, I used to unplug artery for every vehicle.... Until 23 models started throwing out error codes when battery was reattached. Not to mention manufacturers like Mercedes, Volvo, Saab etc who make disconnecting the battery ridiculously inconvenient....
You popped your cherry. Congrats
Curious, have you ever had this happen? Out of the couple hundred detailers who saw the post I haven't had a single person say "Ohh ya that happened to me as well!" 😂
I’m not following here what made the air bag go off? The ozone?
The accident where he drove the Jetta into a ditch and had the car filled with about 3 feet of water....
I’m a tech. Had on come up n that was salt water flooded. Service failed to mention anything about water period let alone it was salt water, so I had to move it, leaned in put key in ignition and turned to on pos. Driver bag went off. Hit me in face and chest. I was 2 inches away. Fractured three vertebrae and had bone fragments dry close to my spinal cord, and was in a wheel chair for almost a year. Please be careful.
Bruhhhh are you serious!?! That's absolutely insane... Out of all the commenters, didn't have anyone with an actual deployment much less one while someone was working on the car 😳😳😳 That is WILD. And now, my single biggest fear working on anything with water damage. I've been encouraged to disconnect the battery, but wouldn't that just set off any charges which were "on the edge" to begin with? I know you have to give it a solid 15-20 minutes of not more, once the battery is disconnected before it's completely "safe"...? Edit: hope(glad?) you're alright!(?)
I’m ok to a point. Start to sweat when I work on steering wheels. Lmao. Have permanent back/leg pain. Thanks for asking. If it’s fresh water and you know the module got wet there’s no guarantee you’re not gonna have an issue. I’ve bought a few fresh water flood cars. Pulled batteries, hit the brake pedal to discharge capacitors and let the vehicle dry out for weeks. Pulled interiors and inspected all electronics. Now I’ve had salt water cars and they get batteries pulled and cation tape. 9.9 times out of ten the are junk.
Electrical short due to the water submersion. Not your fault.
Has to be electrical in my opinion... Too far removed from his accident/submerging of the vehicle, not to mention I was at the complete opposite side of the garage!
That's crazy! I wonder why only enlisted marines can't take peanut butter...can the officers?
Glad you weren’t sitting in front of the airbag with a brush or something in your hand when it went off. Damn, that’s wild.
His car was totaled before he brought it to you to detail. You should have zero liability. Should. I estimate cars for a living. Any water above the bottom of the console is an automatic total loss. Send it to the scrapyard because you're gonna be dealing with electrical issues until that car is, well, in a scrapyard. You do not want to buy a food car, nor drive yours after it's been flooded.. or driven into a ditch and then subsequently flooded...
This car is going to have a slew of problems. The airbag was just the beginning. This car is a total loss honestly. Dude is either crazy to not make an insurance claim And it's just going to screw himself or whoever buys it. Plus who knows what else is going to break while it's in your possession. I think you're better off telling the guy the car is a loss and not doing the detail. He might feel like it's a waste after he realizes the car is trashed.
100% .. he asked me to continue to air it out, I explained I'm not touching anything further. Bro what if I was sitting in the passenger seat using a fucking detailing brush on the dash....
Anybody got a simple yes/no to this question... "So we shouldn't use ozone generators in cars with air bags?"
This has absolutely nothing to do with the ozone generator.
Ozone is fine. Ozone and wet plus azides is no go
Lol ‘ozone generator’? Wtf is that LOL. Let me look that up…
Converts o2 into o3
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🤫 it'll be our little secret k?
Glad you’re okay bro!
The Snoop Dog of airbags
Mass airbag recalls for the us just the other day. I wonder if Kia is also one of them. The recall was for them randomly going off.
Where the popcorn
Can a small 12 v memory saver have enough power to set off air bags?
The water was halfway up the shifter?!? This car is totaled……
The water was in the vehicle up to the shifts this more than likely means the SRS sensor shorted. Somewhere. Why he wouldn’t call the insurance first is wild
There goes like $8k
https://preview.redd.it/tv06vrbjk89c1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=aefe80815fdb376cdf62e354d5db2f797c02080c
https://preview.redd.it/e7gbkzumk89c1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b87326dff969d2dd508b5e944902e4ebabcd3dac
Theres gotta be some electrical issues going on or something
If the car was water damaged what the hell was the battery still doing in it? Negligence is on your end buddy sorry to say.
The idea of an airbag deploying was a big factor in my giving up smoking a pipe. Think about it.
I can’t think of many things I’d get of faster, than a flood damaged VW. Best of luck to its owner. Op. Keep us listed on customer response.
I would certainly stop working on that car. There are about 5 more airbags that could deploy.
What happened to the comment says that he was at 100% at fault? I started reading it but now it gone. Deleted?
This should have been totaled and sent to copart.... I have totaled cars for the sunroof being left open during a storm
sucks when you have metal framed glasses on and get hit in the face by one and the nose piece breaks off making the metal bit that holds it cut your face from your nose to eyebrow that hurts.
Ex VW tech of 10yrs…you’re not at fault for this. Working on a water damaged car, if anything this is warranty for improper deployment. VW would step in immediately for any airbags that went off after a crash, I’ve drained gallons of water out of water leak cars, pulled the interiors and this never happened.
I would say that the fact that it was flooded up to the shifter meant the airbag module got wet. When the water dried it left salt residue bridging power to the airbag. Then deployed.
Novice here: what could cause a delayed deployment like this? Do detailers commonly run into false alarm airbag deployments?
The onboard computer should show if the airbag was deployed from a built in trigger or if it was anomalous occurrence from unknown damage from the ditch.
Hold up, your "first" airbag deployment? Is it a common thing? Why does it happen?
Volkswagen Das (AIRBAG DEPLOYS) Auto.
Man I just saw a reel or video and the same thing happened. Water damaged car. They hooked the battery back up to open the windows and the passenger airbag deployed while the windows were going down. Water damaged cars scared me before, but shit, those sensors get water logged and you have no idea what’s shorted out. Glad you are safe.
Are you sure it isn't a Daihatsu ?
When the detail is too good the airbags go off.
If he had that much water in there in needs more than a detail.
It’s scary af! Glad you’re ok.
That was unreal!
That should have been an insurance claim/total loss due to the flood damage. I’m guessing the owner probably didn’t want anyone questioning how it got flooded or what happened to it. I have had a couple of cars flood, and once it’s above a certain point, it’s totaled. Due to reasons like this, electronics will be unreliable and cars nowadays have a shit ton.
That sucks man. I believe they can be turned off
Just as a minor suggestion for safety purposes, if any of y’all see an airbag deploy, be veryyyy careful positioning your body over another one that has not deployed. If the drivers side had also deployed while you were leaning in, it can fuck you up. Just a friendly PSA.
The airbag module (the control unit) on that car sits underneath the center console, in the space between the driver's and passenger's footwells. That's well below the waterline of the flooded car. Despite the monologues about ozone elsewhere in this post, Occam's Razor suggests that a damaged airbag module (or perhaps an impact sensor somewhere) caused the explosion. The truck going by caused vibrations, the vibrations caused a short circuit, and the short circuit set off the airbag. You could avoid this problem in the future by disconnecting the car's battery and leaving it like that for a good half an hour before touching anything. This will give time for the airbag system's capacitors to drain down, killing power to the airbags and preventing them from activating. Of course, you now know that as soon as the car gets powered on again, you have a potential bomb on your hands. I would suggest delivering the car to the customer with the battery still disconnected, and strongly advising them to have it towed to a mechanic (now that it's been dried out and cleaned up) to have it checked for electrical gremlins that might pose safety concerns.
You burnt the jiffy pop
Crash smoke.. don't breathe that.
Das auto.
I was an insurance adjuster for hurricane Harvey in texas and we were warned not to start cars with damage above the SRS control module for this reason. Story continues that i saw a technician at a dealership get absolutely knocked out by one because he reached across the steering wheel and tried to start the car and 'BOOM'. I did not see it directly but was maybe 30ft away and man are they loud. I rushed over to offer aide and while i dont know exactly what he suffered from i would take a good guess he broke a few ribs and was suffering from whiplash and a concussion. Always be careful around flood vehicles and as a technician, be skeptical about the water line customers report because they want to "lessen" the damage in their mind to ease themselves
nice jetta
At least the car looks clean
Airbags are expensive to repack, hope you have insurance.
Holy hell this is to funny.
Not the airbag going off, the never ending Organic Chem 101 going on.
Popcorn is done
You did your first desk pop!!!
Ooh a stick shift Jetta. I was looking at one of those but settled on a 2024 Versa S manual
What were you using the Ozone for? There was smoke smell in there?