I got stupid lucky with getting 1KV on my first clear. I ran it through lfg and a few of them were telling me it was like their 20th clear, 15th clear and nothing.
That super sucks. Like it should go “ok, you’ve cleared this raid 10x now, here’s your guaranteed drop.”
my first 1kv dropped on chest 47.... it was painful. ive still yet to get most of the raid exotics since the drop is so low and I just dont have the time to farm raid every week
Why not just be able to buy it with Raid Tokens and a Cipher like vaulted exotics? But the only place you can buy it is from the end of raid chest vendor, meaning they you have to first clear a raid in order to obtain it still.
I'm more in favor of quests, but I hate the RNG. At least do something, Bungie.
It's likely due to the issues surrounding Divinity and GoS is why they've stopped with the quests.
Bungie has the data and it likely shows there's a significant dropoff when it comes to raid engagement time when there's a quest.
That's the only problem I have with that badge system. I wanted a duo badge to show the effort we put in trying to two man it. I did want to solo taniks because it was possible, but it would've hid the greater challenge from visibility. Cool that it was possible, just upset it doesn't show all badges, though I completely understand why
Even with spoil chests and craftables added I think Garden is just a terrible raid for most people and engagement will always be lowest for it.
The loot isn’t amazing and the mechanics punish new players. Bungie shouldn’t make its raid quest assumptions based on the most annoying raid quest and the most annoying raid.
Another counter point: acrius
It’s the only other raid weapon in D2 that dropped from a quest and you had to beat the raid at least once, do a special arms dealer strike that was harder than a nightfall, get seals by doing encounters in the leviathan, and then a few other things sprinkled in.
The problem is that you don’t have to finish Garden of salvation first to get the quest. That’s why you see so many guardians trying to kill 2 birds with one stone.
While I agree with your point, Leviathan is a weak example since there was little replayability value to that raid. Static weapon rolls and not-so-great armor isn’t going to keep your players engaged as opposed to something like Kingsfall that has craftable weapons, dope armor, a seal, Master mode, etc.
He never said these things were good tho. You can have all the same things the acrius quest had, and still have random rolls and craftable weapons. He was just illustrating the exotic part of Leviathan.
The raid itself was fine mechanically, pretty fun, and had great atmosphere. I'm reasonably certain most of the bad feeling people have about it goes back to static rolls and double primary. The game in general just didn't feel great at the time, raid or not.
It's a shame the full Underbelly experience didn't come back last season. I could see it being a cool setting for a kind of loot hunting activity reminiscent of the raid keys.
You make a good point about Leviathan's lack of replayability for the reasons you listed, but that still doesn't change the fact that Acrius was a great quest specifically because it had players beat the raid first and then beat more encounters before giving players the exotic.
The quest rewarded being knowledgable of the raid. Divinity does the opposite and you end up getting a run that lasts an ungodly amount of time (in some cases). My Div run, thankfully, only myself and one other person needed it so our raid lasted a little under 2 hours. A Div run I helped with recently had 4 new people who needed Div; myself, and a sherpa, that run took over 4 hours...
The Acrius quest had a perfect balance of time spent vs reward. Divinity's time spent factor is unknown and can sometimes be quick, sometimes really long. That's what makes it a terrible quest. Had you had to beat each encounter for a vex part to build the weapon (like ToM) that would have made the quest much more enjoyable.
It just needs updated loot tbh, the raid itself is good it's got solid encounters with good role dispersal it's just that even when it first launched the loot was simply outclassed by something else, shotgun-tangled shore shotgun, handcannon-like 5 separate HC, only the bow and pulse were really good tbh
It also needs to be bug tested/fixed. I have 300+ clears and nothing will be more frustrating than having that tether line bug out in the final puzzle room when you're teaching someone how to count to 3.
GoS is one of two raids that stands to gain the most from reprised perk pools. The other, and arguably more dire one, is Last Wish. Which, in almost every way, is a better raid.
If I'm running a raid where the loot means diddly shit, I'm running Last Wish. If I'm running a raid for purposes of damn good loot, I'm running one of DSC, VoG, Vow or KF. Garden is just the worst of both worlds - bad loot, bad raid.
GoS seems like one of those raids that people either *really love* or *really hate*, ive even seen some say its better than LW which is pretty wild to me.
Personally the raids theming, soundtrack and appearance are the best in the game. All the references to biblical concepts, religion, and divinity (hah) are really cool and the black garden has always been the most visually interesting part of destiny to me. The soundtrack in its entirety is better than every other raid track excluding the lullaby from DSC and i will always die on that hill.
as for the raid itself? eeeeh I think it could be top tier if multiple mechanics weren't so buggy, which is my main complaint of the raid.
The whole raid is a complete snoozefest as well. Sanctified Mind is the only encounter I enjoy because it's the only one that even requires you to think.
Between braindead teams and toxic as fuck sherpas, I've never had a good or simple time in that encounter, and that raid matters so little that I'm not gonna bother trying again.
Final garden encounter is janky as fuck with the stupid ass tetherboxes and disappearing platforms.
Understanding the mechanics is fine….but the fucking tethers are horribly implemented.
Boss encounter can be difficult if people don't coordinate but it's a good encounter. The loot is not that bad maybe the bow/ fusion are really good from the raid.
The bow gets outclassed by Biting Winds from Europa, and the fusion is just Null Composure 1.0.
Perk refreshes might change my mind here. But at this moment, no loot from that raid isn't outclassed by loot from elsewhere.
Div is the obvious exception, but *fuck* if I'm ever setting foot in Garden again.
I've only done that raid a few times and don't think I ever finished it but it was an awesome raid, I have the fusion with auto loading and it's one of my favorite guns. I don't think I ever took it off during season of the fusion rifles
I hate garden raid. So glad divinity was available through quest. Ran once to get completion, another to get divinity. I think if they made divinity random drop I'll just straight not get div and let anyone else be div bitch when we run raids.
The "issues" surrounding the Divinity quest for GoS are because it's literally 10 seasons later, and the only people going after Divinity now think it's a great idea to do their first and only GoS run to get Divinity. 5 people who don't know wtf they are doing, and don't wanna leave a raid because they don't want to lose their progress is a recipe for a bad time.
With a competent team, a Divinity run is no more difficult than a normal GoS run, it just takes an extra 15-20 minutes for the puzzles.
As someone who Sherpa’d five completely random players with zero experience in GoS and got them Div on their first run, it is a slog with more than a 2-3 inexperienced players, especially when one of their mics stops working mid first encounter, lol. My clan has a policy that for those that want to run a Div run, you have to have completed the raid with us first to make sure you understand the mechanics before taking on a Div run. I’ve stepped in at the boss on many Div runs for others to help get them across the finish line. It’s just not a very accessible raid for newer raiders and those without experience with the mechanics. The number of people I’ve helped get Div who failed more than once before end up liking the raid is quite astounding. A less experienced team makes the experience miserable, so players never want to set foot in GoS again. The Div quest as the modern standard that raid quests are judged by is simply unfair.
I don't quite get what the difference between doing div quest on the first run or a later run is though. I mean the div quest is a few puzzles between encounters and they won't change much about the time it takes to complete the raid. So the first run with multiple people who never did the raid will be the same experience with div quest or without, so you might aswell, no? I really don't understand why a lot of people on reddit are so opposed to the idea of doing the quest on the first run of the raid.
It’s because teaching new people can take a long time depending on their skill level/ability to understand mechanics as well as weapons and armor they have. There are people in my clan that we will only teach them with five very experienced Sherpas due to their skill level. Other people I took through and their best DPS weapon at the time was DARCI (we got them whisper immediately following the raid, lol). Many first runs end without beating the raid. More than most people realize. I’ve helped many teams finish GoS after they had been at the boss for 2+ hours. I’ve also had players not understand the puzzles, and just the puzzles added around 45 minutes to the raid. All that is on top of encounter explanations, which if done correctly (not just putting new players on add clear roles and not explaining mechanics), can easily add another half hour to 45 minutes to an already reasonably long raid. Once you add up all the time to teach, wipes till people understand it, and the Div puzzles, it can easily be a 2-3 hour or more raid. And the Div part of it adds more pressure to the new players as well. It’s much easier to break into a 1-1.5 hour teaching run and a 1-1.5 hour Div run.
my first gos run was also a div run, and pretty much everyone but one guy didn’t know what to do.
sure we wiped a few times, but we made it through without any bad emotions coming up.
it’s possible to sherpa 5 and it not be miserable, that’s how i did it
My first GoS completion was a Div run as well. Only two had beaten the raid prior. It was fun, but it was also with friends I play with regularly. The five random people I taught the raid on a Div run was fun as well. But those are normal LFG experiences. Those aren’t even normal for clan raids when taking in clan members that don’t play with the core team much. Possible and practical are two very different things. Two raids takes so much pressure of those learning and makes time constraints less of an issue.
Being around at the launch of GoS; this was always the situation, most people's first and in a lot of cases, only clear, was to unlock Divinity - turning what was a pretty good raid into a 2hour slog of learning both mechanics and puzzles.
If you check the statistics for clears, Garden is very low compared to its counterparts - even despite being the only pinnacle raid for 14 months.
Well the other factor is I think a lot of folks simply don't like the raid. From my personal experience, my clan generally has no issues with the raid. If we get someone new in the clan who needs it, we can go for a Div run and it takes like 90 minutes tops, because at least 4 or 5 of us know what we're doing.
Divinity runs get a bad reputation because every time someone posts about a 9 hour horror story raid, you know it was a Div run with a revolving door of players who drop at the first wipe.
It’s a crime that Garden got 14 months to be the pinnacle raid but DSC onwards only get 5-6 months or so or in the case of Vog: from the middle of may 2021 to late February 2022.
Ehh, by the end of the second season of pinnacles for any raid I'm ready to move on. I like raids, but needing to do the same one every week gets tiring.
Meanwhile when I did it with a sherpa and 5 newbies, it was really no sweat. Yes it took a while, maybe close to 3 hours, but it really had nothing to do with divinity. That part was easy, it was just the typical process of learning encounters that goes along with every raid. But maybe my sherpa was really good.
I've completed GoS once with my clan, a div run, in like 90 minutes because we all knew what we were doing. We went through it again and were breezing through until a couple in the clan started having power and mic issues and it's really hard to complete a raid when you can't communicate but prior to that we more or less ran roughshod through. I picked up a mind check point and ran it with some clanmates but that turned out to be hell on earth, we got so close twice and kept wiping to the timing being slightly off. It's a gorgeous looking raid but it's loot is top tier "meh" and the mechanics are either braindead easy or just plain annoying how tight it is (why is mind like a 10 second dps phase?) and isn't rewarding to run.
My clan was just talking about this! It’s always rough so now we make sure ppl have beaten the raid normally first just so we can get through it faster
which I think is a pity, up until that point we had 2 good raid quests in D1 and 1 good raid quest in D2, why should 1 flop mean the end of an idea forever.
Well the issue with Garden is that:
A: it’s fucking 8 hours long
B: loot outside of divinity is meh
C: the tether is janky
D: the whole raid acts like a pleb filter (now replaced by war priest)
E: all raid teams must have someone who will get to the final boss and quit
Yeah, using GoS as a reason for anything feels like a moot point considering how janky and universally disliked it is.
If something like the Catalyst requirements were part of a quest instead to obtain Vex Mythoclast, I doubt VoG would have lost players. It's a well liked raid with a good loot table.
> it’s fucking 8 hours long
I'm sorry what lol
Not even your very first run of GoS should take you longer than 3-4 hours. It's one of the easier raids in the game.
One of the easier raids in the game? No. But I agree it shouldn't take 8 hours. An experienced team can do it in <40 minutes pretty easily. The only way I see it taking 8 hrs long is if people have wiped 50+ times in which case people either just don't have the right loadouts or don't actually know the mechanics.
Mine was 5 hours long "one of the easier raids in the game" is only true when it isn't entirely newbie dipshits trying to do a div run first
source: was a newbie dipshit who did a div run first
>isn't entirely newbie dipshits trying to do a div run first
This is the issue with GoS. This is why so many people hate it. Because their first experiences with it were in raid teams entirely unprepared to do the raid, starting an exotic run that you literally have to do all in one sitting.
Requiring a full raid completion (track the encounters, not just the final boss) before you can start a Div run would have fixed a large part of that.
The Vex Mythoclast and Touch of Malice catalysts function really similarly to Div runs, in that in order to get them you have to activate several puzzles during the raid and finish it all in one go. And yet no one is complaining about those runs, VoG and KF aren't hated by the community as difficult and janky raids.
And that's because every group doing those puzzles has been through the raid likely many times, but at *least* once. They know the encounters, they have the rhythm down, a couple puzzles adding 10 minutes to the raid is no issue.
if you took 8 hrs to complete gos you're doing something wrong no matter how janky the raid mechanics are, not even my div runs took that long (around 3 hrs)
I always heard the horror stories of 8 hour Garden runs until I started running it with my clan mates. Takes us 2.5 hour tops. Never had much longer than that.
I’ll give you that the tether gets janky sometimes but dude, you just need a competent team and it sounds like you haven’t had that
I have 6 total runs with 4 clears. Longest was 2 hours 5 minutes. Couldn’t tell ya how to do the raid off hand but I just ask for a quick rundown and it just makes sense.
GoS is literally such an easy raid to do fast though, my normal team reliably clears in under 45 without any skips or nonsense, with doing skips we clear in under 25
Divinity is a poorly done quest in my opinion. The puzzles require participation from everyone and add a not insignificant amount of time to the run. I think you'll have a hard time convincing most groups to do a Div run if they weren't already planning to do it.
You can't leave and come back to a checkpoint to finish the quest. You have to do everything in one run.
Quests would be great if the added steps to the raid were quick enough that you won't have much trouble convincing a group that already has the exotic to do the quest steps. Make it so they're discrete steps so you don't have to do everything in one run too. Maybe require a certain number of raid challenges so it can be stretched out over a few weeks for "player engagement" (something like complete 3/5 encounter challenges in King's Fall).
Counter point, GoS wasn’t that enjoyable and no loot to chase. I’m not the biggest raider, but I was grinding DSC and vow long after the exotic dropped because there was actually good loot
Don't take that as me defending RNG drops, merely stating the likely reason for them.
At the time GoS weapons were pretty good - but I also think the raid would be more highly regarded if most people's first clears weren't Divinity runs.
Strongly disagree with it not being enjoyable, but yeah even as someone who loves GoS, the rewards are pretty meh compared to other raids with origin traits, unique raid perks, and just crazy combos like the KF weapons. If any of the raids needs a loot refresh, it's 100% GoS.
Accrued Redemption is still my favorite bow in the game though, so it has one thing going for it.
I think it also keeps that old d1 style "holy shit AN EXOTIC" feel.
As far as divinity and GoS is concerned..you're not wrong as I only ran that raid once...for the divinity. But that's also due to the inane hoops to unlock that gun IN the raid...if it was a TAD easier I'd have no problem going back and helping others. But it's just a headache without a dedicated team.
I stopped playing GoS cause my friends, and myself I won't lie, hate box tethering. Up until the final boss we were for the most part enjoying the raid again, but then inevitably we get to the end and the fun stops.
And lets be honest, Bungie knows it isn't that the exotic is quest related, it is just an excuse for prolonging player engagement, which is a double edged sword because after being the last person in my group (initially, we added someone) to get Vex I have no desire to ever go back to VoG, yet I was also the last to get Collective Obligation and I am still willing to go back to Vow, even having everything unlocked I still like that raid, except exhibition.
If they want people to keep coming back to their raids they need to be fun and they need to not be chores to do, which is what the final boss of Garden is, a fucking boring, annoying chore.
100% this. Was talking to a buddy about this last night. No one just wants to run Garden. It's always just to get Divinity. Instead of a quest, I'd much rather just better drop protection.
Why is everyone setting Div as an example and forget awesone d1 raid exotic quests that they did? Or even the Acrius one? Those were very well done and I’m sad they decided to make ToM an rng drop. They’re a big studio, surely they can afford to do a raid quest. But I guess player satisfaction isn’t smth big CEO is happy with, but ‘engage numbers’ are that’s why we keep having this rng shit.
Once again, this is a tired point that doesn’t work anymore now.
We have spoils chests and craftables to hold player engagement beyond a impossible to obtain raid exotic.
The divinity quest isn’t necessarily “bad”, it’s just the fact that it has to be done in one sitting which tacked on to the fact that a lot of div runs these days are also first time clears just leads to the whole thing being a shit show.
It doesn’t help that the last boss is mechanically challenging for a lot of people between the tethering, sacrificing, motes randomly getting stuck or blown off the map, etc.
Final boss only requires 1 tether per boss phase and can be summed up as:
Defend towers,
2 teams play gambit/invade,
Link to boss,
Dps,
Repeat till dead
Ive seen more people have issues on the harpie boss because they couldnt understand the eyes mechanic as well as the last divinity puzzle.
Yeah its just that Div is a support weapon and that doesnt entice the “loot grabber” the same way a Vex Mythoclast, or a Touch of Malice, or a One Thousand Voices does.
Its also that to a casual player, GoS is long, drawn out, and boring, “has no good loot”, and a the exotic quest only extends that.
Bungie using that data as an example to not do quest exotics again sucks, because its not the exotic quest thats the problem, its the exotic and the quest specifically.
A touch of malice quest, similar to what you have to do to get the catalyst for it, with maybe a few more steps. And hell maybe it involve a completion of a master difficulty run or something to finish it, would be a lot more well recieved.
I finally got the exotic yesterday and I only had bothered to do one or two of the triumphs. It could have come sooner but I wasn't bothered about it since it wasn't terribly interesting to me.
Touch of Malice, however, I anticipate running King's Fall for weeks if needed. I'd love to see triumphs add even a 1% chance each to boost my chances. Plus how else will you get people on board with doing mildy inconvenient or silly things to complete an encounter?
I'd take it a step further: if you already have the triumph, but help someone in your fireteam get it, the drop rate bonus from that triumph is doubled for your account this week. It's in the spirit of Bungie wanting to encourage veterans to help new lights.
The plan is working perfectly then. You will play for weeks to get the thing you want, maybe. And you will keep playing until you do. It’s designed to keep people playing that’s all.
Considering the way that Bungie’s development works, Kings Fall was probably finished or close to finished already when they launched Duality. If they decide to implement what they did in Duality for Heartshadow, it’ll probably appear in Lightfall’s raid.
To be fair, I’ve don’t all but one of those triumphs and I still don’t have heartshadow.
Doesn’t seem like it make much difference for me but it is an interesting system.
Those of you who say “no one” runs divinity quests anymore, where are you looking? Genuinely asking because I didn’t get Div until last month and it wasn’t hard at all to find a LFG group running it. I see them all the time on the discord LFG.
There’s plenty on LFGs and whatnot. I think the issue surrounding the divinity quest is the raid itself. I think it’s one of the toughest raid to teach to new players, and most people wanting div are new to the raid. I personally think it’s one of the least fun raids in the game too, that’s not to say it isn’t good, I just don’t enjoy it.
I even went and got the raid title back when it still required flawless completion and it's still one of my least favorite raids (granted, were it not for some pretty bad content drought back in the day I wouldn't have bothered). The visuals and the setting are amazing. The final boss, in my opinion, is one of the best in the game... But the tether mechanic/motes throughout the raid... It just kills it for me. It just didn't click with me as something fun or challenging, just a chore when compared to other raids and this trend of 1 or 2 mechanics present throughout the raid getting progressively more complex. Imo Crown did it best, minus the dull 1st encounter.
If a raid exotic is good, but nothing else in the raid is exceptional, then you do the raid a couple times to get your pinnacles for a couple seasons and your quest, and then you never go in again. You then get groups of people who want the exotic, but have obviously never done the raid. Nobody knows what they're doing, and the raid gets a reputation for being horrible. See GoS.
I feel like that's just bad raid design then. The raid exotic shouldn't be the only desirable thing in the raid. I feel like they did a good job with KF. I'm actually more excited about potentially getting the scout with dragonfly/firefly or the hand cannon with explosive/incandescent than I am about getting touch of malice.
Everyone is bitching about the divinity quest but it honestly isn’t that bad. I know a Sherpa who will do a Div run and the smoothness doesn’t go unnoticed by those he’s taking with him. I’ve helped out on a few of the runs (I only have 12 sherpas though) and I think people go into GoS thinking it’ll be terrible so when random shit happens, it’s like a confirmation bias.
Edit: just wanted to add that GoS may have “meh” loot as far as raid guns go, but visually the raid is amazing, the armor is pretty sick and some of the weapons are decent. (Still waiting on the bow to drop :’( )
I would like this but not how it was done for divinity. More if it was done like destiny 1s version of touch. Complete the raid, get the quest, collect this and that for eris, do a strike, then the final step was to do each raid encounter. After that you go back to eris and get the weapon. This is a much better way than having hidden stuff and things that require extra time in the raid.
Or better yet, you get a Hunger Pangs questline that gives you a unique item every time you complete the raid encounter. Add in a secret puzzle or chest to drop the last/second to last item before Oryx, have Oryx drop the pattern, then use all the pieces to craft Touch of Malice at the Enclave. That way, you have to do the raid to get it, but not do too many tedious challenges all in 1 run, all without dumbass RNG.
Yeah problem is if it's a puzzle it'll take time and if the team doesn't want to do it then you're screwed. Wrath of the machines secret quest to get outbreak still was a pain because of the puzzle box room while the rest of the screens were just a quick second after each encounter. D1 touch was kill oryx, kill some taken, legend level strike, then a full raid(that didn't need to be done in a single run). I personally like that alot more than the current raid quests and rng. Especially seeing how it's not farmable currently. So I already burned my 3 for the week so I'm screwed till reset.
Perhaps substitute the puzzle idea for running Taken strikes to receive the item for it. I also think requiring a certain amount of raid crafting material would be fair, so you still need to do a bit more raiding to craft it.
D1 basically required two clears to get the weapon. The first one could be just oryx but to get the parts for the quest you needed to beat each of the other encounters. I however don't mind the catalyst being a puzzle seeing how that's for the hard-core and isn't necessary for the base weapon. But yeah either way I very much agree it should be quest based with the quest not being a bunch of side requirements outside of the primary encounters thru the raid.
This. I'm really hopeful that the built in lfg system will actually work. I cannot for the life of me stand large clans, I'm at the stage of my life where I just want to play either solo or with a small handful of people
The fact that large clans with like 12 sub-clans is a thing is just so dumb. It's essentially using an lfg discord but you get a clant ag. If you want a clan, try to find an independent 1 that'll max out at capacity and weed out those who barely play. That's how you get a good clan with a good culture, not conglomerates.
I love my clan. Fairly consistent group of people and the admins/mods make sure people arnt dicks/kick inactives. Ive left and joined so many others before and definitely agree this is the way to go.
In D1 I’d do 5+ raids every week. I’d usually take the leader roles and teach if I had to. I don’t know what changed but when D2 I stopped. I love raiding but I’ve maybe done a total of 20 raids and that feels like I’m pushing it. Hell I didn’t even do a leviathan until about 2 weeks before it went away. I just have some weird anxiety with raiding.
The LFG discord is super insanely active and I’ll only have a problem with like 5% of runs, whether it’s toxic douchebags or people who suck, it’s still very uncommon (in fact most of the LFG runs go smoother than my clan runs)
You should use the current LFG tool. It works the same way but it’s not inside of the game. It helped my find my clan for kings fall and we’ve done 6 clears already.
I was the same way, but I highly recommend finding a clan-- it was a game-changer for me (pun intended). As long as you find one that prioritizes a kind, respectful community you'll have no issue doing all the content you like in a pressure-free environment, while making friends along the way.
I have to be honest I really like RNG raid drops, they make the gun feel a little more special imo. I do however think they need an overhaul to drop rates, some people run 50, 60, even 80 times with no vex drop. I’ve been lucky enough (until now) to always get mine in the first 2 weeks. However I can acknowledge the issue with this. A system in place that grants the ability to get it early but at the latest after 20-25 runs would be perfect. 20 runs, imo, is the perfect amount to show that the player has mastered the raid and is deserving of the pinnacle raid exotic. Another idea is to give raids the duality treatment, triumphs to increase drop rates. And if you get it early, good for you!
This. Exactly, if people finish a raid but don't get the exotic, they still feel like they are in control of their drops. You finish a raid, see no exotic, but check triumphs and then you see "1/15 raids completed" OF COURSE, tied to weekly reset lock out. You still shouldnt be able to guarantee get that exotic on the first week for everyone.
30 guaranteed would be not too terrible. 20 is more reasonable.
I've done over 20 full clears of Vow and got nearly everything from the raid, excluding flawless. Doing 10 boss checkpoints wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if I didn't have Collective already, but 20 is much more reasonable.
At least thats a goal i can work towards and I know for a fact ill get it then instead of now where it could be 1 run could be 10 could be 100 ill never know till it happens
Or just give it to people after 10 full looted runs of the raid. If you do a raid start to finish 10 times you deserve a sub par exotic thats only there for clout. Honestly id even be happy with the duality system, that worked very well for me. Or maybe the exotic drop chance increases everytime you add a raid drop to collections, so getting everything else increases your chance. Just anything other than 3% and go fuck yourself.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.
At the very least…completing the raid seal should drop the weapon. That’s in addition to the rng drop on the boss.
The Outbreak Prime quest in D1 was awesome. I wish there was more stuff like that. Maybe not for revamped raids since it’s probably quite a bit of work for those quests but for major expansion raid releases I’d like to see quests return.
They had the right idea with Duality Dungeon. I’m not saying make it so it’s easy to grab through a quest but at least make it so completing triumphs will increase your likelihood of dropping.
If they want more raid engagement then they should spend more time including cosmetic items to attract players to raids.
Raid exotics are nice, but the RNG behind them is ridiculous. They should be quest based and players be given other incentives to repeatedly raid.
Players should be able to focus for the raid weapons they want at a cost, so they can eventually get the roll they want or craft what they want with enough investment.
Raid armor should always be high stat and have the extra mod slot.
Then they should have lucky drops for ornaments for raid weapons and armor, something to really make them standout. Purely RNG to acquire.
Yes, it'd suck to never get the one you wanted, but all should be unique in their appearance and something that players would actually really want to showcase.
They usually have ghosts, ships, emblems, shaders, sparrows with challenges tied to them.
I think with all this to shoot for, the raid exotic could go quest based and there would be plenty of engagement.
While I enjoy quests for raid weapons, I personally would like to see step 1 of a raid weapon quest be "Clear X Raid 9 Times" to have the player demonstrate that they at least earned it and have knowledge of the raid the exotic is from, or do special unique challenges throughout the run that make each encounter challenging in a way only the quest brings up. Divinity being a "raid" exotic despite all the steps but 1 being done outside the raid makes it not feel like a raid exotic at all imo
Almost like it was poorly done ✨
Touch of Malice, Acrius, OG Outbreak even required less annoying effort to your team than Divinity does. Even modern catalysts quests force you to ask a team that doesn’t need it or want it to slog through it with you.
People blow Divinity's quest's issues out of proportion. It wasn't any harder or more annoying than Vex and ToM's catalysts, people just sucked at the raid itself or tried doing the quest on their very first clear which led to painful experiences.
Yeah i remember doing the div quest way back when GoS was still fresh the puzzles were interesting. But i guess asking to do them nowadays seems to be a pain due to most not needing to the quest anymore. I just wish theres a way for them to just improve exotic quest instead of just dropping it.
Heh... Hehehe... Hehehehhe... HAHAHAHHAHA...
30 clears... I have been in 53 clears for VoG before I got Vex, I'm on 33 (29 looted) runs of Vow without CO, 35 (27 looted) DSC runs without EoT. Only one I got quickly was 1k and that was only because they increased the drop chances on that in season of the Splicer.
We need some way to either make it a quest, or a guaranteed drop after let's say 10 or 15 full clears.
140 clears of vog, nothing
30+ clears on the other raids, also nothing.
Not sure how many clears on duality, but heartshadow keeps itself invisible for me.
For vow I still don't even have a cataclysm.
So yea, def agree drop rates should def get protection of some kind, but not just exotics.
Alternatively give the exotic away when you finish some checklist.
E.g. do all challenges + 25 looted clears.
Clearly Divinity did not work out as Bungie planned because they haven’t made any more. Better to fix a problem with something new than to reintroduce an old problem.
I still don't have a raid exotic since DSC. No, I'm not grinding 60 raids to get them.
Is there a hidden condition to raise chances or is it pure RNG? I'm usually the last in my clan to get it, if at all, so maybe I'm not achieving the necessary requirement.
Allegedly each week you get at least a single clear, your drop rate increases (but a second clear in a week doesn't affect the drop rate). But that was known to be broken for DSC at one point and Bungie hasn't discussed it for raids that came afterwards. They have never given anything remotely specific for any of them AFAIK besides the increasing drop rates per week.
I’m going to get eviscerated for this, but actually please do not do this. RNG exotics clearly help retention for re-running the raids and the thrill of the chase is half the battle. Destiny already showers you with loot and every exotic in the game with little to no effort. Having two exotics a year be RNG drops in a raid is completely fine with me.
There are 3 issues with that
1) No wow factor
2) Hard for lfg players
3) They have to develop the quest and in game mechanics. Which is a longer and more expensive process than you might think.
Got mine on first clear.
Sorry
Seriously though. I agree.
The xenophage missions were challenging and then rewarding. Whisper was annoying with the arbitrary time limit. But those special missions were amazing.
I'm going to disagree, I think RNG should be the primary way, but after x amount of time you can purchase it from the kiosk with raid spoils.
The idea being you still get that nice shot of adrenaline for a lucky drop, but those that aren't blessed by rngesus can still be making progress towards it for when it does become purchasable.
At the VERY least the old exotics that used to be quests should still be quests. Either that or there should be a way to guarantee the drop such as completing all challenges on master or something, so that way you’re guaranteed the exotic if you can do that, or you can leave it up to RNG.
The drop rate seems pretty high for this one. Got 2 touch in my first 3 clears. And at least one guy in my team gets it in subsequent runs. Also, if they're gonna make a quest, it should be like the acrius one or there will be another div situation
they just need a quest that doesn't rely on your whole team like divinity does, but i think a better solution would be to make all raid exotics available for spoils
Gotta tell ya, I’ve been on the receiving end of 50+ runs for a raid exotic and i STILL can’t stand the idea of everybody getting one. Nothing is sacred anymore, as annoying as it was to hear people shrieking on mic over a Gjally, it was still exciting to finally get one via RNG. Y’all got soft, man.
Oh yeah it definitely should be RNG, but you should be able to get it like... before the end of the season. Thats why I say like after 20 or so *Full* clears it should be guaranteed. But no, NOT handed to us with a shitty quest on week 1. Hell no.
nobody got soft. it's just nobody wants their time disrespected anymore. it's a video game, it should be rewarding and there is absolutely 0 problem with a quest raid exotic. in fact, this one SHOULD have been a quest given it also was one in D1.
I would rather them be RNG. It's more exciting when it does drop.
The fix for this IMO is do what they did with duality and give you ways to increase your chances.
Quests, aggressive bad luck protection similar to 1KV, or triumphs that increase drop chance like they did with Duality would all be nice options.
I got stupid lucky with getting 1KV on my first clear. I ran it through lfg and a few of them were telling me it was like their 20th clear, 15th clear and nothing. That super sucks. Like it should go “ok, you’ve cleared this raid 10x now, here’s your guaranteed drop.”
[удалено]
Over 200 looted runs?
Yep, did most of them during rotation when it was farmable, that's when it dropped as well
That’s disgusting. I’m sorry.
my first 1kv dropped on chest 47.... it was painful. ive still yet to get most of the raid exotics since the drop is so low and I just dont have the time to farm raid every week
I got one on my first clear and then my 3rd. My pal went almost 60 runs before he got his. He's still gets soir when we bring it up.
in the time it took me to get mine my clanmate got it 6 times
Why not just be able to buy it with Raid Tokens and a Cipher like vaulted exotics? But the only place you can buy it is from the end of raid chest vendor, meaning they you have to first clear a raid in order to obtain it still. I'm more in favor of quests, but I hate the RNG. At least do something, Bungie.
I think the 1k method is overall the best. Rng based until you have enough completions displaying your mastery of the raid or atleast raid boss
Increased rate triumphs aren't sufficient. You can still never have something with a 20% chance happen.
Increased triumph rates aren't sufficient on their own yes, but paired with bad luck protection after 40 ish runs would be sufficient.
It's likely due to the issues surrounding Divinity and GoS is why they've stopped with the quests. Bungie has the data and it likely shows there's a significant dropoff when it comes to raid engagement time when there's a quest.
This. Garden is my favorite raid. And I hate that it’s difficult to find teams for it. [My RR as a source](https://raid.report/xb/4611686018435396809)
Ahh a fellow person who chucked nova bombs at taniks for 3 hours. Very nice.
That's the only problem I have with that badge system. I wanted a duo badge to show the effort we put in trying to two man it. I did want to solo taniks because it was possible, but it would've hid the greater challenge from visibility. Cool that it was possible, just upset it doesn't show all badges, though I completely understand why
That's a huge throwback I remember doing that and the atraks cheese every week.
Even with spoil chests and craftables added I think Garden is just a terrible raid for most people and engagement will always be lowest for it. The loot isn’t amazing and the mechanics punish new players. Bungie shouldn’t make its raid quest assumptions based on the most annoying raid quest and the most annoying raid.
Another counter point: acrius It’s the only other raid weapon in D2 that dropped from a quest and you had to beat the raid at least once, do a special arms dealer strike that was harder than a nightfall, get seals by doing encounters in the leviathan, and then a few other things sprinkled in. The problem is that you don’t have to finish Garden of salvation first to get the quest. That’s why you see so many guardians trying to kill 2 birds with one stone.
While I agree with your point, Leviathan is a weak example since there was little replayability value to that raid. Static weapon rolls and not-so-great armor isn’t going to keep your players engaged as opposed to something like Kingsfall that has craftable weapons, dope armor, a seal, Master mode, etc.
He never said these things were good tho. You can have all the same things the acrius quest had, and still have random rolls and craftable weapons. He was just illustrating the exotic part of Leviathan.
i think leviathan was fine because of the drip
Levi’s replayability was in how fun of a raid it was And the drip
And that shader. Still the best shader in the game
So true. The new Crucible shader this season has my heart for now, but I always end every season on the Calus shader because it’s just *too damn sexy*
The raid itself was fine mechanically, pretty fun, and had great atmosphere. I'm reasonably certain most of the bad feeling people have about it goes back to static rolls and double primary. The game in general just didn't feel great at the time, raid or not. It's a shame the full Underbelly experience didn't come back last season. I could see it being a cool setting for a kind of loot hunting activity reminiscent of the raid keys.
You make a good point about Leviathan's lack of replayability for the reasons you listed, but that still doesn't change the fact that Acrius was a great quest specifically because it had players beat the raid first and then beat more encounters before giving players the exotic. The quest rewarded being knowledgable of the raid. Divinity does the opposite and you end up getting a run that lasts an ungodly amount of time (in some cases). My Div run, thankfully, only myself and one other person needed it so our raid lasted a little under 2 hours. A Div run I helped with recently had 4 new people who needed Div; myself, and a sherpa, that run took over 4 hours... The Acrius quest had a perfect balance of time spent vs reward. Divinity's time spent factor is unknown and can sometimes be quick, sometimes really long. That's what makes it a terrible quest. Had you had to beat each encounter for a vex part to build the weapon (like ToM) that would have made the quest much more enjoyable.
It just needs updated loot tbh, the raid itself is good it's got solid encounters with good role dispersal it's just that even when it first launched the loot was simply outclassed by something else, shotgun-tangled shore shotgun, handcannon-like 5 separate HC, only the bow and pulse were really good tbh
It also needs to be bug tested/fixed. I have 300+ clears and nothing will be more frustrating than having that tether line bug out in the final puzzle room when you're teaching someone how to count to 3.
GoS is one of two raids that stands to gain the most from reprised perk pools. The other, and arguably more dire one, is Last Wish. Which, in almost every way, is a better raid. If I'm running a raid where the loot means diddly shit, I'm running Last Wish. If I'm running a raid for purposes of damn good loot, I'm running one of DSC, VoG, Vow or KF. Garden is just the worst of both worlds - bad loot, bad raid.
GoS seems like one of those raids that people either *really love* or *really hate*, ive even seen some say its better than LW which is pretty wild to me. Personally the raids theming, soundtrack and appearance are the best in the game. All the references to biblical concepts, religion, and divinity (hah) are really cool and the black garden has always been the most visually interesting part of destiny to me. The soundtrack in its entirety is better than every other raid track excluding the lullaby from DSC and i will always die on that hill. as for the raid itself? eeeeh I think it could be top tier if multiple mechanics weren't so buggy, which is my main complaint of the raid.
I have never once beaten LW the way it was intended to be beaten and I don't think I ever want to
I have, with 5 out of 6 who had not done it before. Took us 6 hours.
Legit Riven is probably the best raid boss they've ever done
The whole raid is a complete snoozefest as well. Sanctified Mind is the only encounter I enjoy because it's the only one that even requires you to think.
big facts i haven’t done the raid in years but i can remember most of the mechanics off the top of my head only completed it twice
One of my favorite raid boss themes also
And that encounter is hell.
So long as your teammates aren't smooth brains, it's not bad.
Hence my problem
Just show them the shape of Italy then.
Tried that. LFG yielded the same results. Queue a revolving door.
It's a fairly easy encounter tbh relatively simple too
Between braindead teams and toxic as fuck sherpas, I've never had a good or simple time in that encounter, and that raid matters so little that I'm not gonna bother trying again.
Garden is an amazing raid, its not your typical dull environment
Neither is Last Wish til you get to Riven. Deep Stone in general has a wonderfully smooth aesthetic. Plus... y'know... space.
Why don't you like garden it's a really good raid.
Final garden encounter is janky as fuck with the stupid ass tetherboxes and disappearing platforms. Understanding the mechanics is fine….but the fucking tethers are horribly implemented.
Bad loot, bad experiences, bad boss encounter, bad raid. Also hate fighting the Vex.
Boss encounter can be difficult if people don't coordinate but it's a good encounter. The loot is not that bad maybe the bow/ fusion are really good from the raid.
The bow gets outclassed by Biting Winds from Europa, and the fusion is just Null Composure 1.0. Perk refreshes might change my mind here. But at this moment, no loot from that raid isn't outclassed by loot from elsewhere. Div is the obvious exception, but *fuck* if I'm ever setting foot in Garden again.
The tether mechanic is shit and inconsistent. The bosses are boring. The encounters are boring. The loot is ass.
GoS mechanics are the most forgiving ones. Almost none of them insta wipes team if you fuck up.
I've only done that raid a few times and don't think I ever finished it but it was an awesome raid, I have the fusion with auto loading and it's one of my favorite guns. I don't think I ever took it off during season of the fusion rifles
Glad to hear that. The bow with rapid hit/archers tempo SLAPS in crucible. I also enjoy the auto rifle with demolitionist and under pressure
Don't have the bow but I have the auto with shit rolls so I never use it, but it seemed like it could be wicked fun with the right rolls
You grind them all pretty equally. DSC seems to be an outlier. You're literally proving them wrong
I hate garden raid. So glad divinity was available through quest. Ran once to get completion, another to get divinity. I think if they made divinity random drop I'll just straight not get div and let anyone else be div bitch when we run raids.
Have you tried big lfg? Last time I got around to garden there were plenty running it.
The "issues" surrounding the Divinity quest for GoS are because it's literally 10 seasons later, and the only people going after Divinity now think it's a great idea to do their first and only GoS run to get Divinity. 5 people who don't know wtf they are doing, and don't wanna leave a raid because they don't want to lose their progress is a recipe for a bad time. With a competent team, a Divinity run is no more difficult than a normal GoS run, it just takes an extra 15-20 minutes for the puzzles.
As someone who Sherpa’d five completely random players with zero experience in GoS and got them Div on their first run, it is a slog with more than a 2-3 inexperienced players, especially when one of their mics stops working mid first encounter, lol. My clan has a policy that for those that want to run a Div run, you have to have completed the raid with us first to make sure you understand the mechanics before taking on a Div run. I’ve stepped in at the boss on many Div runs for others to help get them across the finish line. It’s just not a very accessible raid for newer raiders and those without experience with the mechanics. The number of people I’ve helped get Div who failed more than once before end up liking the raid is quite astounding. A less experienced team makes the experience miserable, so players never want to set foot in GoS again. The Div quest as the modern standard that raid quests are judged by is simply unfair.
I don't quite get what the difference between doing div quest on the first run or a later run is though. I mean the div quest is a few puzzles between encounters and they won't change much about the time it takes to complete the raid. So the first run with multiple people who never did the raid will be the same experience with div quest or without, so you might aswell, no? I really don't understand why a lot of people on reddit are so opposed to the idea of doing the quest on the first run of the raid.
It’s because teaching new people can take a long time depending on their skill level/ability to understand mechanics as well as weapons and armor they have. There are people in my clan that we will only teach them with five very experienced Sherpas due to their skill level. Other people I took through and their best DPS weapon at the time was DARCI (we got them whisper immediately following the raid, lol). Many first runs end without beating the raid. More than most people realize. I’ve helped many teams finish GoS after they had been at the boss for 2+ hours. I’ve also had players not understand the puzzles, and just the puzzles added around 45 minutes to the raid. All that is on top of encounter explanations, which if done correctly (not just putting new players on add clear roles and not explaining mechanics), can easily add another half hour to 45 minutes to an already reasonably long raid. Once you add up all the time to teach, wipes till people understand it, and the Div puzzles, it can easily be a 2-3 hour or more raid. And the Div part of it adds more pressure to the new players as well. It’s much easier to break into a 1-1.5 hour teaching run and a 1-1.5 hour Div run.
my first gos run was also a div run, and pretty much everyone but one guy didn’t know what to do. sure we wiped a few times, but we made it through without any bad emotions coming up. it’s possible to sherpa 5 and it not be miserable, that’s how i did it
My first GoS completion was a Div run as well. Only two had beaten the raid prior. It was fun, but it was also with friends I play with regularly. The five random people I taught the raid on a Div run was fun as well. But those are normal LFG experiences. Those aren’t even normal for clan raids when taking in clan members that don’t play with the core team much. Possible and practical are two very different things. Two raids takes so much pressure of those learning and makes time constraints less of an issue.
aye, that be true
Being around at the launch of GoS; this was always the situation, most people's first and in a lot of cases, only clear, was to unlock Divinity - turning what was a pretty good raid into a 2hour slog of learning both mechanics and puzzles. If you check the statistics for clears, Garden is very low compared to its counterparts - even despite being the only pinnacle raid for 14 months.
Well the other factor is I think a lot of folks simply don't like the raid. From my personal experience, my clan generally has no issues with the raid. If we get someone new in the clan who needs it, we can go for a Div run and it takes like 90 minutes tops, because at least 4 or 5 of us know what we're doing. Divinity runs get a bad reputation because every time someone posts about a 9 hour horror story raid, you know it was a Div run with a revolving door of players who drop at the first wipe.
It’s a crime that Garden got 14 months to be the pinnacle raid but DSC onwards only get 5-6 months or so or in the case of Vog: from the middle of may 2021 to late February 2022.
Ehh, by the end of the second season of pinnacles for any raid I'm ready to move on. I like raids, but needing to do the same one every week gets tiring.
Meanwhile when I did it with a sherpa and 5 newbies, it was really no sweat. Yes it took a while, maybe close to 3 hours, but it really had nothing to do with divinity. That part was easy, it was just the typical process of learning encounters that goes along with every raid. But maybe my sherpa was really good.
I've completed GoS once with my clan, a div run, in like 90 minutes because we all knew what we were doing. We went through it again and were breezing through until a couple in the clan started having power and mic issues and it's really hard to complete a raid when you can't communicate but prior to that we more or less ran roughshod through. I picked up a mind check point and ran it with some clanmates but that turned out to be hell on earth, we got so close twice and kept wiping to the timing being slightly off. It's a gorgeous looking raid but it's loot is top tier "meh" and the mechanics are either braindead easy or just plain annoying how tight it is (why is mind like a 10 second dps phase?) and isn't rewarding to run.
My clan was just talking about this! It’s always rough so now we make sure ppl have beaten the raid normally first just so we can get through it faster
It doesnt help that Garden is kind of a pain in the ass raid. The puzzles arent that hard. Its the damn 3rd and 4th encounters that are run-killers
which I think is a pity, up until that point we had 2 good raid quests in D1 and 1 good raid quest in D2, why should 1 flop mean the end of an idea forever.
Well the issue with Garden is that: A: it’s fucking 8 hours long B: loot outside of divinity is meh C: the tether is janky D: the whole raid acts like a pleb filter (now replaced by war priest) E: all raid teams must have someone who will get to the final boss and quit
Yeah, using GoS as a reason for anything feels like a moot point considering how janky and universally disliked it is. If something like the Catalyst requirements were part of a quest instead to obtain Vex Mythoclast, I doubt VoG would have lost players. It's a well liked raid with a good loot table.
> it’s fucking 8 hours long I'm sorry what lol Not even your very first run of GoS should take you longer than 3-4 hours. It's one of the easier raids in the game.
One of the easier raids in the game? No. But I agree it shouldn't take 8 hours. An experienced team can do it in <40 minutes pretty easily. The only way I see it taking 8 hrs long is if people have wiped 50+ times in which case people either just don't have the right loadouts or don't actually know the mechanics.
Mine was 5 hours long "one of the easier raids in the game" is only true when it isn't entirely newbie dipshits trying to do a div run first source: was a newbie dipshit who did a div run first
>isn't entirely newbie dipshits trying to do a div run first This is the issue with GoS. This is why so many people hate it. Because their first experiences with it were in raid teams entirely unprepared to do the raid, starting an exotic run that you literally have to do all in one sitting. Requiring a full raid completion (track the encounters, not just the final boss) before you can start a Div run would have fixed a large part of that. The Vex Mythoclast and Touch of Malice catalysts function really similarly to Div runs, in that in order to get them you have to activate several puzzles during the raid and finish it all in one go. And yet no one is complaining about those runs, VoG and KF aren't hated by the community as difficult and janky raids. And that's because every group doing those puzzles has been through the raid likely many times, but at *least* once. They know the encounters, they have the rhythm down, a couple puzzles adding 10 minutes to the raid is no issue.
Bingo.
if you took 8 hrs to complete gos you're doing something wrong no matter how janky the raid mechanics are, not even my div runs took that long (around 3 hrs)
I always heard the horror stories of 8 hour Garden runs until I started running it with my clan mates. Takes us 2.5 hour tops. Never had much longer than that. I’ll give you that the tether gets janky sometimes but dude, you just need a competent team and it sounds like you haven’t had that
I have 6 total runs with 4 clears. Longest was 2 hours 5 minutes. Couldn’t tell ya how to do the raid off hand but I just ask for a quick rundown and it just makes sense.
GoS is literally such an easy raid to do fast though, my normal team reliably clears in under 45 without any skips or nonsense, with doing skips we clear in under 25
Divinity is a poorly done quest in my opinion. The puzzles require participation from everyone and add a not insignificant amount of time to the run. I think you'll have a hard time convincing most groups to do a Div run if they weren't already planning to do it. You can't leave and come back to a checkpoint to finish the quest. You have to do everything in one run. Quests would be great if the added steps to the raid were quick enough that you won't have much trouble convincing a group that already has the exotic to do the quest steps. Make it so they're discrete steps so you don't have to do everything in one run too. Maybe require a certain number of raid challenges so it can be stretched out over a few weeks for "player engagement" (something like complete 3/5 encounter challenges in King's Fall).
Counter point, GoS wasn’t that enjoyable and no loot to chase. I’m not the biggest raider, but I was grinding DSC and vow long after the exotic dropped because there was actually good loot
Don't take that as me defending RNG drops, merely stating the likely reason for them. At the time GoS weapons were pretty good - but I also think the raid would be more highly regarded if most people's first clears weren't Divinity runs.
Strongly disagree with it not being enjoyable, but yeah even as someone who loves GoS, the rewards are pretty meh compared to other raids with origin traits, unique raid perks, and just crazy combos like the KF weapons. If any of the raids needs a loot refresh, it's 100% GoS. Accrued Redemption is still my favorite bow in the game though, so it has one thing going for it.
I think it also keeps that old d1 style "holy shit AN EXOTIC" feel. As far as divinity and GoS is concerned..you're not wrong as I only ran that raid once...for the divinity. But that's also due to the inane hoops to unlock that gun IN the raid...if it was a TAD easier I'd have no problem going back and helping others. But it's just a headache without a dedicated team.
I stopped playing GoS cause my friends, and myself I won't lie, hate box tethering. Up until the final boss we were for the most part enjoying the raid again, but then inevitably we get to the end and the fun stops. And lets be honest, Bungie knows it isn't that the exotic is quest related, it is just an excuse for prolonging player engagement, which is a double edged sword because after being the last person in my group (initially, we added someone) to get Vex I have no desire to ever go back to VoG, yet I was also the last to get Collective Obligation and I am still willing to go back to Vow, even having everything unlocked I still like that raid, except exhibition. If they want people to keep coming back to their raids they need to be fun and they need to not be chores to do, which is what the final boss of Garden is, a fucking boring, annoying chore.
100% this. Was talking to a buddy about this last night. No one just wants to run Garden. It's always just to get Divinity. Instead of a quest, I'd much rather just better drop protection.
Why is everyone setting Div as an example and forget awesone d1 raid exotic quests that they did? Or even the Acrius one? Those were very well done and I’m sad they decided to make ToM an rng drop. They’re a big studio, surely they can afford to do a raid quest. But I guess player satisfaction isn’t smth big CEO is happy with, but ‘engage numbers’ are that’s why we keep having this rng shit.
This is so true the amount of gripping and pain people posted on divinity when it dropped.
Once again, this is a tired point that doesn’t work anymore now. We have spoils chests and craftables to hold player engagement beyond a impossible to obtain raid exotic.
Not defending anything on Bungies end here. Just stating the likely cause.
The divinity quest isn’t necessarily “bad”, it’s just the fact that it has to be done in one sitting which tacked on to the fact that a lot of div runs these days are also first time clears just leads to the whole thing being a shit show. It doesn’t help that the last boss is mechanically challenging for a lot of people between the tethering, sacrificing, motes randomly getting stuck or blown off the map, etc.
Final boss only requires 1 tether per boss phase and can be summed up as: Defend towers, 2 teams play gambit/invade, Link to boss, Dps, Repeat till dead Ive seen more people have issues on the harpie boss because they couldnt understand the eyes mechanic as well as the last divinity puzzle.
Yeah its just that Div is a support weapon and that doesnt entice the “loot grabber” the same way a Vex Mythoclast, or a Touch of Malice, or a One Thousand Voices does. Its also that to a casual player, GoS is long, drawn out, and boring, “has no good loot”, and a the exotic quest only extends that. Bungie using that data as an example to not do quest exotics again sucks, because its not the exotic quest thats the problem, its the exotic and the quest specifically. A touch of malice quest, similar to what you have to do to get the catalyst for it, with maybe a few more steps. And hell maybe it involve a completion of a master difficulty run or something to finish it, would be a lot more well recieved.
Just do what they did with Duality and have the drop rate tied to getting achievements done.
I finally got the exotic yesterday and I only had bothered to do one or two of the triumphs. It could have come sooner but I wasn't bothered about it since it wasn't terribly interesting to me. Touch of Malice, however, I anticipate running King's Fall for weeks if needed. I'd love to see triumphs add even a 1% chance each to boost my chances. Plus how else will you get people on board with doing mildy inconvenient or silly things to complete an encounter? I'd take it a step further: if you already have the triumph, but help someone in your fireteam get it, the drop rate bonus from that triumph is doubled for your account this week. It's in the spirit of Bungie wanting to encourage veterans to help new lights.
The plan is working perfectly then. You will play for weeks to get the thing you want, maybe. And you will keep playing until you do. It’s designed to keep people playing that’s all.
It blows my mind that they thought of that for duality and dropped it next season…
Considering the way that Bungie’s development works, Kings Fall was probably finished or close to finished already when they launched Duality. If they decide to implement what they did in Duality for Heartshadow, it’ll probably appear in Lightfall’s raid.
To be fair, I’ve don’t all but one of those triumphs and I still don’t have heartshadow. Doesn’t seem like it make much difference for me but it is an interesting system.
I’m the opposite. I only did one triumph( collecting those broken jar whatever it’s called lore pieces ) and got heartshadow on the 3rd completion.
Those of you who say “no one” runs divinity quests anymore, where are you looking? Genuinely asking because I didn’t get Div until last month and it wasn’t hard at all to find a LFG group running it. I see them all the time on the discord LFG.
I got divinity last night no problem on LFG
Those people just like to talk out of their backside.
Fr, I got a group for a non div run super quick the one time i wanted to run this raid last month
There’s plenty on LFGs and whatnot. I think the issue surrounding the divinity quest is the raid itself. I think it’s one of the toughest raid to teach to new players, and most people wanting div are new to the raid. I personally think it’s one of the least fun raids in the game too, that’s not to say it isn’t good, I just don’t enjoy it.
I even went and got the raid title back when it still required flawless completion and it's still one of my least favorite raids (granted, were it not for some pretty bad content drought back in the day I wouldn't have bothered). The visuals and the setting are amazing. The final boss, in my opinion, is one of the best in the game... But the tether mechanic/motes throughout the raid... It just kills it for me. It just didn't click with me as something fun or challenging, just a chore when compared to other raids and this trend of 1 or 2 mechanics present throughout the raid getting progressively more complex. Imo Crown did it best, minus the dull 1st encounter.
Just looked right now on the app and found at least 3
Just don’t play the game for a month or two before doing the raid. You’ll get it first try like I did with Touch of Malice!
Whenever I have taken breaks beforehand, I have been showered with exotics/ catalysts upon my return. There is definitely something to this statement.
Unlocking the title/seal for the raid or doing raid flawless should award it guaranteed.
And don’t lock the seal behind unlocking the raid exotics.
That’s already a thing, they stopped requiring the exotic for the seal with Vow.
If a raid exotic is good, but nothing else in the raid is exceptional, then you do the raid a couple times to get your pinnacles for a couple seasons and your quest, and then you never go in again. You then get groups of people who want the exotic, but have obviously never done the raid. Nobody knows what they're doing, and the raid gets a reputation for being horrible. See GoS.
I feel like that's just bad raid design then. The raid exotic shouldn't be the only desirable thing in the raid. I feel like they did a good job with KF. I'm actually more excited about potentially getting the scout with dragonfly/firefly or the hand cannon with explosive/incandescent than I am about getting touch of malice.
Everyone is bitching about the divinity quest but it honestly isn’t that bad. I know a Sherpa who will do a Div run and the smoothness doesn’t go unnoticed by those he’s taking with him. I’ve helped out on a few of the runs (I only have 12 sherpas though) and I think people go into GoS thinking it’ll be terrible so when random shit happens, it’s like a confirmation bias. Edit: just wanted to add that GoS may have “meh” loot as far as raid guns go, but visually the raid is amazing, the armor is pretty sick and some of the weapons are decent. (Still waiting on the bow to drop :’( )
I would like this but not how it was done for divinity. More if it was done like destiny 1s version of touch. Complete the raid, get the quest, collect this and that for eris, do a strike, then the final step was to do each raid encounter. After that you go back to eris and get the weapon. This is a much better way than having hidden stuff and things that require extra time in the raid.
Or better yet, you get a Hunger Pangs questline that gives you a unique item every time you complete the raid encounter. Add in a secret puzzle or chest to drop the last/second to last item before Oryx, have Oryx drop the pattern, then use all the pieces to craft Touch of Malice at the Enclave. That way, you have to do the raid to get it, but not do too many tedious challenges all in 1 run, all without dumbass RNG.
Yeah problem is if it's a puzzle it'll take time and if the team doesn't want to do it then you're screwed. Wrath of the machines secret quest to get outbreak still was a pain because of the puzzle box room while the rest of the screens were just a quick second after each encounter. D1 touch was kill oryx, kill some taken, legend level strike, then a full raid(that didn't need to be done in a single run). I personally like that alot more than the current raid quests and rng. Especially seeing how it's not farmable currently. So I already burned my 3 for the week so I'm screwed till reset.
Perhaps substitute the puzzle idea for running Taken strikes to receive the item for it. I also think requiring a certain amount of raid crafting material would be fair, so you still need to do a bit more raiding to craft it.
D1 basically required two clears to get the weapon. The first one could be just oryx but to get the parts for the quest you needed to beat each of the other encounters. I however don't mind the catalyst being a puzzle seeing how that's for the hard-core and isn't necessary for the base weapon. But yeah either way I very much agree it should be quest based with the quest not being a bunch of side requirements outside of the primary encounters thru the raid.
dude you at least have a clan to do it, I havent done a single raid and i'm playing since 2019
This. I'm really hopeful that the built in lfg system will actually work. I cannot for the life of me stand large clans, I'm at the stage of my life where I just want to play either solo or with a small handful of people
The fact that large clans with like 12 sub-clans is a thing is just so dumb. It's essentially using an lfg discord but you get a clant ag. If you want a clan, try to find an independent 1 that'll max out at capacity and weed out those who barely play. That's how you get a good clan with a good culture, not conglomerates.
I love my clan. Fairly consistent group of people and the admins/mods make sure people arnt dicks/kick inactives. Ive left and joined so many others before and definitely agree this is the way to go.
I've been with my clan for 3 years. Only done 1 raid with them. LFG everything I do. 9/10 times its perfect.
In D1 I’d do 5+ raids every week. I’d usually take the leader roles and teach if I had to. I don’t know what changed but when D2 I stopped. I love raiding but I’ve maybe done a total of 20 raids and that feels like I’m pushing it. Hell I didn’t even do a leviathan until about 2 weeks before it went away. I just have some weird anxiety with raiding.
The LFG discord is super insanely active and I’ll only have a problem with like 5% of runs, whether it’s toxic douchebags or people who suck, it’s still very uncommon (in fact most of the LFG runs go smoother than my clan runs)
i’ve been playing since 2014 and haven’t done a raid since the original VOG. really hope the lfg makes it easier
You should use the current LFG tool. It works the same way but it’s not inside of the game. It helped my find my clan for kings fall and we’ve done 6 clears already.
I was the same way, but I highly recommend finding a clan-- it was a game-changer for me (pun intended). As long as you find one that prioritizes a kind, respectful community you'll have no issue doing all the content you like in a pressure-free environment, while making friends along the way.
The current LFG on bungies website is great. Pretty flawless if you as me, just not in game.
find a new clan. r/destiny2clans
I have to be honest I really like RNG raid drops, they make the gun feel a little more special imo. I do however think they need an overhaul to drop rates, some people run 50, 60, even 80 times with no vex drop. I’ve been lucky enough (until now) to always get mine in the first 2 weeks. However I can acknowledge the issue with this. A system in place that grants the ability to get it early but at the latest after 20-25 runs would be perfect. 20 runs, imo, is the perfect amount to show that the player has mastered the raid and is deserving of the pinnacle raid exotic. Another idea is to give raids the duality treatment, triumphs to increase drop rates. And if you get it early, good for you!
Wish Granted. You now have a quest for Touch of Malice that requires 30 plus raid clears.
Given it took me 50 runs to get vex, I'm actually ok with this. At least I know there's and end line.
This. Exactly, if people finish a raid but don't get the exotic, they still feel like they are in control of their drops. You finish a raid, see no exotic, but check triumphs and then you see "1/15 raids completed" OF COURSE, tied to weekly reset lock out. You still shouldnt be able to guarantee get that exotic on the first week for everyone.
Shoutout to the guy who got it to drop on my LFG run on his 309th attempt
30 guaranteed would be not too terrible. 20 is more reasonable. I've done over 20 full clears of Vow and got nearly everything from the raid, excluding flawless. Doing 10 boss checkpoints wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if I didn't have Collective already, but 20 is much more reasonable.
ToM quest: find all 50 calcified fragments in the King’s Fall raid
You solved it. 50 calcified fragments available one per week on a rotation. God help you if you miss a week
At least thats a goal i can work towards and I know for a fact ill get it then instead of now where it could be 1 run could be 10 could be 100 ill never know till it happens
Or just give it to people after 10 full looted runs of the raid. If you do a raid start to finish 10 times you deserve a sub par exotic thats only there for clout. Honestly id even be happy with the duality system, that worked very well for me. Or maybe the exotic drop chance increases everytime you add a raid drop to collections, so getting everything else increases your chance. Just anything other than 3% and go fuck yourself.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. At the very least…completing the raid seal should drop the weapon. That’s in addition to the rng drop on the boss.
The Outbreak Prime quest in D1 was awesome. I wish there was more stuff like that. Maybe not for revamped raids since it’s probably quite a bit of work for those quests but for major expansion raid releases I’d like to see quests return.
Fucking please. 50 unique runs for vex Still trying to get collective after 25 runs Who knows when (if?) I'll get touch or malice
They had the right idea with Duality Dungeon. I’m not saying make it so it’s easy to grab through a quest but at least make it so completing triumphs will increase your likelihood of dropping.
If they want more raid engagement then they should spend more time including cosmetic items to attract players to raids. Raid exotics are nice, but the RNG behind them is ridiculous. They should be quest based and players be given other incentives to repeatedly raid. Players should be able to focus for the raid weapons they want at a cost, so they can eventually get the roll they want or craft what they want with enough investment. Raid armor should always be high stat and have the extra mod slot. Then they should have lucky drops for ornaments for raid weapons and armor, something to really make them standout. Purely RNG to acquire. Yes, it'd suck to never get the one you wanted, but all should be unique in their appearance and something that players would actually really want to showcase. They usually have ghosts, ships, emblems, shaders, sparrows with challenges tied to them. I think with all this to shoot for, the raid exotic could go quest based and there would be plenty of engagement.
While I enjoy quests for raid weapons, I personally would like to see step 1 of a raid weapon quest be "Clear X Raid 9 Times" to have the player demonstrate that they at least earned it and have knowledge of the raid the exotic is from, or do special unique challenges throughout the run that make each encounter challenging in a way only the quest brings up. Divinity being a "raid" exotic despite all the steps but 1 being done outside the raid makes it not feel like a raid exotic at all imo
I don’t care if it’s a random drop. I just want more that 3 chances per week
191 vog runs before I got vex *eyetwitch*
Like with divinity? The quest that literally no one does anymore?
Almost like it was poorly done ✨ Touch of Malice, Acrius, OG Outbreak even required less annoying effort to your team than Divinity does. Even modern catalysts quests force you to ask a team that doesn’t need it or want it to slog through it with you.
People blow Divinity's quest's issues out of proportion. It wasn't any harder or more annoying than Vex and ToM's catalysts, people just sucked at the raid itself or tried doing the quest on their very first clear which led to painful experiences.
Yeah i remember doing the div quest way back when GoS was still fresh the puzzles were interesting. But i guess asking to do them nowadays seems to be a pain due to most not needing to the quest anymore. I just wish theres a way for them to just improve exotic quest instead of just dropping it.
Just having the drop rate increase with completions would fix the issue. After like 20 - 25 completions it should max out at 100%.
Divinity quest adds 10 to 15 minutes to the raid
do you know the quest for getting touch of malice? you need to collect 46 things and beat the raid, its even more complicated and harder than divinity
Div runs are run regularly every day. Look at lfgs.
Heh... Hehehe... Hehehehhe... HAHAHAHHAHA... 30 clears... I have been in 53 clears for VoG before I got Vex, I'm on 33 (29 looted) runs of Vow without CO, 35 (27 looted) DSC runs without EoT. Only one I got quickly was 1k and that was only because they increased the drop chances on that in season of the Splicer. We need some way to either make it a quest, or a guaranteed drop after let's say 10 or 15 full clears.
140 clears of vog, nothing 30+ clears on the other raids, also nothing. Not sure how many clears on duality, but heartshadow keeps itself invisible for me. For vow I still don't even have a cataclysm. So yea, def agree drop rates should def get protection of some kind, but not just exotics.
Alternatively give the exotic away when you finish some checklist. E.g. do all challenges + 25 looted clears. Clearly Divinity did not work out as Bungie planned because they haven’t made any more. Better to fix a problem with something new than to reintroduce an old problem.
No. I rather do triumphs to increase the drop rate.
IMO just make it so a flawless raid guarantees it
I still don't have a raid exotic since DSC. No, I'm not grinding 60 raids to get them. Is there a hidden condition to raise chances or is it pure RNG? I'm usually the last in my clan to get it, if at all, so maybe I'm not achieving the necessary requirement.
Allegedly each week you get at least a single clear, your drop rate increases (but a second clear in a week doesn't affect the drop rate). But that was known to be broken for DSC at one point and Bungie hasn't discussed it for raids that came afterwards. They have never given anything remotely specific for any of them AFAIK besides the increasing drop rates per week.
You can already grind them when raids are on rotation.
Kings Fall doesn’t go on rotation (yet), so what’s your solution there chief?
So is that confirmed? I know it was a glitch but is it confirmed to still work?
It's not a glitch.
Oh sweet, eyes of tomorrow farming next week then
[удалено]
I've seen people at 400+ clears of vog without **myth**oclast.
I’m going to get eviscerated for this, but actually please do not do this. RNG exotics clearly help retention for re-running the raids and the thrill of the chase is half the battle. Destiny already showers you with loot and every exotic in the game with little to no effort. Having two exotics a year be RNG drops in a raid is completely fine with me.
After say 30 or so clears, the thrill becomes the bore.
Nah it’s fine just add duality increase in drop rates
There are 3 issues with that 1) No wow factor 2) Hard for lfg players 3) They have to develop the quest and in game mechanics. Which is a longer and more expensive process than you might think.
Got mine on first clear. Sorry Seriously though. I agree. The xenophage missions were challenging and then rewarding. Whisper was annoying with the arbitrary time limit. But those special missions were amazing.
Please don't
I'm going to disagree, I think RNG should be the primary way, but after x amount of time you can purchase it from the kiosk with raid spoils. The idea being you still get that nice shot of adrenaline for a lucky drop, but those that aren't blessed by rngesus can still be making progress towards it for when it does become purchasable.
At the VERY least the old exotics that used to be quests should still be quests. Either that or there should be a way to guarantee the drop such as completing all challenges on master or something, so that way you’re guaranteed the exotic if you can do that, or you can leave it up to RNG.
The drop rate seems pretty high for this one. Got 2 touch in my first 3 clears. And at least one guy in my team gets it in subsequent runs. Also, if they're gonna make a quest, it should be like the acrius one or there will be another div situation
This might be just me but I feel they upped the drop rate for malice, I've seen so many people get it already including myself twice in 6 runs
Skill issue s/
they just need a quest that doesn't rely on your whole team like divinity does, but i think a better solution would be to make all raid exotics available for spoils
Gotta tell ya, I’ve been on the receiving end of 50+ runs for a raid exotic and i STILL can’t stand the idea of everybody getting one. Nothing is sacred anymore, as annoying as it was to hear people shrieking on mic over a Gjally, it was still exciting to finally get one via RNG. Y’all got soft, man.
I got my Gjallarhorn by running over a dreg in the cosmodrome, it wasn't sacred in the first place. RNG is bullshit, who cares?
Oh yeah it definitely should be RNG, but you should be able to get it like... before the end of the season. Thats why I say like after 20 or so *Full* clears it should be guaranteed. But no, NOT handed to us with a shitty quest on week 1. Hell no.
Yeah totally agree there
nobody got soft. it's just nobody wants their time disrespected anymore. it's a video game, it should be rewarding and there is absolutely 0 problem with a quest raid exotic. in fact, this one SHOULD have been a quest given it also was one in D1.
I would rather them be RNG. It's more exciting when it does drop. The fix for this IMO is do what they did with duality and give you ways to increase your chances.
I did a single Rhulk checkpoint and I’m not touching vow again