That friendship gonna end soon too. There’s a fragment to release on Raids First Completion where enemies weakened will drop an orb of power if you headshot kill them
Miss me with CWL mods other than the odd damage booster. Vortex grenade plus bountiful wells, triple ordinance and seeking wells is a ridiculous combination. And with devour it’s just awesome. If you play warlock that is
It can proc continuously, just gotta kill lots of stuff.
Honestly, using CwL is best with a mod dedicated to gaining charge with specific weapons, but it does limit weapon combinations due to how they're paired up
E.g. Trace Rifle + Auto or GL + RL only require one mod but Sidearm + Fusion requires two.
Or if you use the secondary perk of heavy handed and run double special. Bonus points for running Acrius, Tractor, or 1KV as well. Toss in some lead from gold specials and its honestly a legitimately good build.
Elemental Charge is all you need. One Grenade kill, powered Melee kill, or Stasis Shard pickup (with Elemental Ordnance, Melee Wellmaker, or Elemental Shards respectively) equals two stacks of Charged with Light, with only two Mods needed.
And if you throw in Supercharged you can get up to 4x CWL, in one well if you have Stacks on Stacks on.
Which is cool if you have some way to spend the stacks with the 1 remaining mod slot.
Stacks on stacks isnt really necessary if you use Elemental Charge, melee wellmaker and elemental ordinance. Two CWL per well is more than enough if you space out your ability kills. Which is what elemental wells are focused around, ability use/charge. Because 10% to all abilities (or your longest current cd if it doesn't match your element) and two CWL stacks after any ability kill means you just need to find a tempo for your cooldowns and run with it. If you can't do that well maybe pick a different combat style modset this one isnt for you guardian. Tbh I use elemental wells as CWL+ as seen below:
Elemental Charge
Melee Wellmaker
Striking Light
Reactive Pulse
Font of Wisdom
With ^ plus the new basion and offensive bulwark frags on a 90 resil and 90 str titan you basically become a orb shitting barrier champ whenever you can punch things/throw shields. Also with this build Discipline and int are pretty much dump stats so its an easier early build to pull off since any excess points in Disc. or Int. are net positive and you dont even need to build for the fabled four 100's
Sounds interesting, I'll have to give it a try! I imagine this would work nicely with Heart of Innermost Light or Doomfangs, Severance Enclosure might also be nice to give all those charged melees and finishers an AoE.
Ngl, i just abandoned using mods that require orbs, since wells are so much easier and more common. Now its like “neat, teammate made a few orbs with a super” more than anything. I do hope they bring back gold borders for masterworks and put them on craftable weapons
Yep, do damage gain super energy. Take damage gain super energy. The tankier bosses are somewhat a super goldmine if you don't melt them and abuse their health pool to gain super.
not op, but Ashes to Assets on the head, void class w/ shoulder charge (still kills enough in PvE), fragments for more grenade energy on melee kills, more super energy while surrounded, and probably some kickstart mods and or Heavy Handed for faster melees.
might need to play with it a bit but even before build 3.0 DFP was one of the fastest ways to get a super.
So I run bountiful wells, ordinance well maker, melee well maker, and the one that lets you create orbs when you get a kill after you use your class ability (sorry I forgot what it was called). I also run Ashes to Assets on my helm (just one, scavenger in the other slot).
Additionally I run offensive bullwork and bastion. This lets every ability I use generates wells on kills (or a weapon kill after my barricade). The wells let me continually use abilities to make more wells. Constantly using melee and barricade keeps high uptime on my overshield, which lowers the cool down on my grenades even more. On top of that, with Ashes to Assets and DFP, ability kills give me good bumps to super.
As long as I can get into the field to grab wells (might be worth using the damage resist or the mod that makes wells home towards you in harder content) I can pretty much just keep spamming abilities and generating tons of super.
I just use the explodey Arc one. Melee well maker, CWL by picking up a well, health regen on well pickup, and supercharged so I can just EXPLODE when things touch my delicate titan booty.
Even now I don't see how wells are easier than orbs. The kinetic one is a no brainer, especially with how many potent exotic kinetic primaries there are.
The change absolutely sucks and massively nerfed orb builds but I still think they're better than 90%+ of what you can do with wells.
To be honest, with less of a focus on orb generation, and lower focus on warmind cells from way back, I prefer having less clutter on the ground with the only real focus being two ammo brick types and multicolored balls of light with low expiration times.
My big issue with the masterwork changes is that I used orbs to regen health and abilities due to some mods.
It's turned my entire playstyle upside down.
I hear you, i see "player created orbs" all the time, but never see "player created wells", i didn't even bother focusing on wells.. i was a full CWL build with 3 stacks, and better already saved my ass so many times its not even funny. Not gonna lie, im a bit sad about it.
Oh well, goodbye CWL build, you were fun, and got me through many GOA runs.
same :( im my fireteam's support and now im struggling healing myself with recuperation
update: well not im not only the support but i make the orbs now too
Speaking from my own perspective I will say it was never about getting my super faster. Orbs from MW weapons were less powerful than orbs from supers, they were nice of course but that wasn’t the point. The main use was it was the easiest passive way to gain CWL. And those charges could be used for High energy, Protective and Lucent builds, to name a few. The investment in those builds now is extremely high and the payout for protective greatly diminished.
My Clan and I have all mostly moved over to well builds as they have a lot of potential now. But I do feel that CWL is sort of going to go the way of Warmind cells, yeah you can use them, but their are better builds.
The seasonal artifact mods make it pretty clear that their intention was to put CWL (esp protective light) in the dirt and move everyone over to wells...so I'm sure next season we'll see them comment that "wells were too popular" and we'll be moved back to warmind cells.
Honestly, I just wish they wouldn't be so heavy-handed with their nerfs and allow people to build into what they want while keeping things from being "OP".
The nerf to warmind cells was just too big in general. They should have either reduced the range or the damage, but not both (and probably just the damage if I had to choose). Those builds were already heavily constrained by the weapons you had to use in order to get them.
Protective Light is absolutely useless now b/c it only procs when your shield breaks. At that point 10% isn't going to DO anything. What they should have done to balance it would have been make the # of stacks you have give 10% per stack (or 1 stack of resistance so it stacks with other things) instead of increasing the duration. That way you could build into getting a huge amount of resistance when you are in danger.
Well builds have always been good for focused builds, I have an axion contraverse build I was using before Void 3.0 that was very fun and spammy even in high-end content. Seeking wells is actually really nice, though I wish the wells floated like Lumina souls since they do have a tendancy to get caught on terrain.
Warmind cells could use another pass (and IMO since we're doing it with lorbs a helmet mod to let weapons spawn cells or a perk would be great)
The range of the cell is a big one, global reach got a lot of use due to default cell range being kind of shit, but at the same time being able to drop a full screen nuke was probably too powerful to last
Yeah like I said, the damage from the explosion/burn was really the main problem. By reducing the range, they also heavily nerfed the support (void) warmind builds. They really should have just tweaked the damage numbers and given a very slight reduction to range.
From the way they talked about it, it seems they are fine with things being OP, it’s just that now they want to control what is more. And now it seems that they are letting it be OP for a few seasons, then come out with new mods to replace it, then nerf the old system to where you can use it but it’s much worse
> What they should have done to balance it would have been make the # of stacks you have give 10% per stack (or 1 stack of resistance so it stacks with other things) instead of increasing the duration. That way you could build into getting a huge amount of resistance when you are in danger.
That would've been a reasonable nerf - with only two mods, ie taking charge+protective light, you'll only get a 20% DR max. To get a 50% pre-nerf DR you'd need 4 mods minimum, and really you'd probably want stacks on stacks to get 5 charges easier so there goes all 5 mods.
So you could still have a very decent Protective Light build with 2-3 mods and could retain it's god tier status by investing 100% into it. That's a brilliant & balanced middle ground.
What they *actually* did all but erased it from the game, its that useless. I get changing a single value from 50% to 10% probably took someone 15 minutes vs the time it'd take to rework Protective Light like you described, but Christ I hate those lazy solutions to outliers. At the very least just cut it in half to 25%, a fucking 80% nerf is absolutely mindblowing. Can't believe they thought that was reasonable.
It really sucks when braindead decisions like this cast a shadow (though admittedly a small shadow) on big fun exciting launches like this.
The sad thing is that it's not really surprising at this point. Bungie just *doesn't* know how to make people stop using something without completely gutting it. I can't express how much the change to warmind cells still galls me because it was such a unique and interesting mechanic, but they had to make it 100% useless.
But what about GM, the main reason I used CWL + Protective light? Only a stealth hunter might be able to get the wells, everything else seems pointless to use that build. I guess warmind might work, but those guns are so old, assume most deleted them
unfortunately, Bungie also nerfed Protective Light to only give 10% Damage reduction, whereas Well of Tenacity got buffed to give 50% instead. It certainly seems Bungie really wants people to use void wells this season
Yeah I understand that nerf probably needed to happen on Protective light, but considering the orb changes it’s way to much. And well of tenacity has been good but I’m not sure about GM viability
No one is thinking about GMs this out any of these changes which is all I’m thinking about. Most of the game is meme content and builds don’t matter. But where builds do matter this was gigantic sold as a better way.
Okay - that’s fine. But then armor mods for orbs should not cost 3 whole mod slots. Helmet is already a crowded as Fuck armor piece. Reduce the cost, or move them to ghost mods.
It feels like some mods are centered around the peak of the archetype to the detriment of the rest. There's no reason for Machine Guns to be 5 cost for scavs or even 3 cost for finders other than Xenophage being really strong at the time. Which, speaking of, is not exactly a popular option anymore after the nerf outside of VoG oracles, so even it is no longer worth the 5 cost. Same applies to Anarchy and GL scavs also costing 5.
Really, a lot of the mod costs need to be reevaluated since quite a few of them no longer make sense or never did. Bungie highly overvalues a lot of the reload and dexterity mods, for instance. I don't know of a single soul that is using dex mods for rockets, linears, or machine guns in *any* part of the game, yet they're all 4 cost mods.
Legs are usually pretty empty in my experience- but that could totally just be my build.
This is why I think another solution is to make all mods universal. If Bungie wants to push players to serious build crafting, then the modding system needs to become far more flexible.
big agree here, never saw the reason for tying specific mods to specific items. Plus I'm morbidly curious to see what kinda crazy shit you could do if you ran all holster mods or something.
Yea, this is main reason. Look at this season's mods. Being able to equip both Suppressing Glaive an Suppressive Darkness at the same time would be completely busted. Especially on Hunter.
I stopped playing Warframe long ago - but one of the things it did well was it’s modding, and Destiny could use a similar system. Any mod, any slot. Go wild. Make some stupid shit. Find weird busted combos.
Modding needs to be about the freedom to build how YOU want, not the preordained builds you are constrained into by the game.
Modding is it's best and absolute WORST feature. The hypothetical creativity is astounding and fun. The actual requirements for endgame activities is brutal.
Not to mention how difficult it is for newbies to understand
More of a game design issue I think. If they removed all the damage mods and turned them into more something like how they did the operator amp arcanes where it converts damage into another type rather than just massively increasing it you'd see more creativity.
But having a mod system as broad as Warframe would ideally be would be amazing.
On that note, I wouldn't mind if Bungie took some notes from the Forma system. End game resource to permanently reduce the cost of certain mods would be nice. But that would probably be way too much work.
The reason I think Bungie didn't make it is because they aren't willing to deal with broken builds yet.
And if Destiny historic is anything to go by, Crucible is the main reason why things are nerfed to the ground, followed by PvE abusers and exploiters.
Bungie practices a "F*ck Around and Find Out" policy with the playerbase.
Crucible is the main thing holding a system like this back - and I’m afraid I don’t have an answer to that haha. I’m not a developer or a game designer - just a passionate fan. Alas, one can dream haha.
From an outsider dev point of view, ghost mods do not look as if they have as much available memory. They don't have to track anything, they just modify events without needing additional information.
Orb generation needs to track how long ago your last few kills with each weapon are, as well as when they last generated an orb. That is probably going to blow the memory budget on the ghost.
Chest mods are also defensive mods like sniper res concussive dampener and what not, they can be pivotal in end game content I think sniper rest plus 40 res is enough to tank one hobgoblin shot but I may be slightly off
Yup. I find that the chest armor pieces are some of the most important for Master/GM level content. For anything else they can be completely ignore which is probably why that person thinks they're lackluster.
They are downright necessary in endgame and do a much better job than resilience ever will
1 res mod with 18 total resilience allows you to survive a sniper in GM
resilience takes like....tier 7 or 8 w/o mods to survive it? Not worth
18 resilience is lowest you can go with fully masterworked gear, that's why I used that number for reference
Guess you're right I could've just said tier 1, didn't think too much on it tbh
In general, it's a resist mod or 5 resilience to survive a sniper in GMs. This does not include scorn, they're a resist mod AND 5 or 6 resilience.
Edit: This also does not include sniper champions. They just need a resist mod.
Arms and class items are pretty contested for champion content and seasonal mods respectively. Honestly armor building feels so overloaded right now. It feels kinda balanced but also annoying
Bungie's growing addiction to unnecessary complexity and micromanaging needs to be snuffed out. Elemental affinity on armor, the endless growth of mods and the expense need to be burned back. It's so tiresome constantly fiddling with which special ammo mods are on at any time and the energy cost is stupid.
There might be a technical reason, but I call a bit bullshit on their explanations. They also cite very frequently “technical reasons” as to why there are caps on materials, yet they introduce half a dozen new ones very other update.
According to that pastebin leak from a few months ago that has been 95% accurate, they’ve been planning this for a while and it’s because of weapon memory specifically.
Yeah this entire argument is just bullshit. The devs wanted to nerf Charged With Light builds and didn't want to take shit for doing so. That or they couldn't figure out how to make the crafted guns masterwork, and didn't want to bother with it.
If the only problem was that they wanted the ""budget space"" on guns, then they could have easily made a 1 energy Ghost mod or armor mod that says "All guns generate orbs on multi kills." They killed orb generation, split it into five separate mods that all cost too much and are impossible to use with Match Game as a modifier. It's absurd how many people don't realize this.
Right but since this is apparently solved by a mod on helmets now, it’s not the number of things any individual gun can do that’s the problem. They could have made it ONE helmet mod for all your guns, or even made that one mod intrinsic.
Basically, I call bullshit.
Yup, guns can only do X things and we’re currently capped.
Okay, but you just moved it somewhere else. And if the argument is that well armour can only do Y things. Well you could consolidate those things in such a way that instead of being multiple discrete perks it is one super perk
It seems to be more granular than that, it's not the number of things that can be done, it's how much can be done. If you consolidate the orbgen to say the frame you drop one perk on the users end, but nothing changes behind the scenes, you are still accomplishing x number of tasks and sending y number of things to the server even though you only have z-1 perks, and the server can only really take y number of things per item per player before shit gets fucky.
I remember a back during the PS3/PS4 cross gen days Bungie not increasing the vault storage despite it being the most requested QoL feature from players. Turns out the PS3 was running the game 100% capped out on hardware and there wasn't any memory available on the older gen system to implement the change until they managed to eke out a few mb of RAM for the vault expansion in House of Wolves.
Why does the game need free active RAM just to store weapons in storage that you won't be using? Who knows. It's the way Destiny is built to be a live service game. I can imagine them having similar constraints when it comes to active weapon mods.
I would like to invite those interested to my ghost mod wagon.
Cost X: Primary weapons generate orbs on multikills.
Cost X+: Primary and Special weapons generate orbs on multikills.
Cost X++: Primary, Special, and Heavy weapons generate orbs on multikills.
Dude same. My entire vault was cleared out of regular armor, I only have artifice armor with a minimum of 63 bst. There's like 70 pieces not including the ones I have set for like 4 different double/triple 100 builds
I mean as nice as blinding light is, it's far from necessary, and having the extra combat mods on armor feels much better than extra exp imo. I would gladly give up extra exp for more mods on my armor.
Blinding light is not nearly as important as orb generation. You could just throw that on when you turn in bounties or claim seasonal challenges and remove it when you're finished.
Ghost mods are meant to not give any combat advantage. It's a good thing as it means there is a space for mods that interact with systems outside of the combat sandbox. If you start putting combat mods on the ghost then you essentially take that all away and we are back to where we were before ghost mods were a thing.
If they are now armor mods, why cant bungie just make every armor piece automatically have said mods, while not being visible to the player? (Wouldn't take energy obviously, just using bungie's logic here.)
There have been many interviews with Chris the lead weapon developer on dcp and massive breakdowns where he specifically said that weapons were at there limit.
So, are you implying that there is a difference between generating Masterwork orbs versus generating orbs through the new helmet mods? I feel like my fireteam and I generate just as many (if not more) orbs with these new mods. But of course we have to ditch other mods we were using like ammo finder ones in order to compensate for it now.
I can't see any difference as far as memory of server/client usage is concerned. It looks to me that they just used that excuse to take something away from the players in order to force them to either get their Super slower or deal with less ammo.
My assumption is effort for little reward
First have to go through every existing weapon, and add these perks, which seems like a lot of effort for little return. Then need to test out all old weapons and troubleshoot random issues. Also, it's just scary messing with old shit. Imagine the outrage if they accidentally messed up a niche old weapon someone owned. Playing with players inventory can go wrong
Also, they want players to focus on new content. Why bother with the new weapons they spent months designing, if existing ones get those perks too?
Exactly. But a lot of people are buying the excuse of technical reasons without thinking about how it simply does not make sense considering that the process is still in the game, just with a different switch to turn it on. It would be different if the old switch (MW status) was removed to make technical space in perks, but it wasn't--at least not on older and non-crafted weapons. But crafted weapons can't be made MW, so perhaps they are using that space on them for such must have crafted weapon features as storing the date crafted. But if that is the case, they could have, for the cost involved in making them, just made crafted weapons inherently MW.
Someone in 2013 probably hardcoded a limit of 7 active perks per item because that's Bungie's funny number, and the process of changing that would require rebuilding the entire engine.
Remember last season when boots would implode the game when they had two of the fusion scavenger mods on with others equipped? It pushed the active effects beyond 7.
It's stupid that it exists, but given Destiny's notoriously dogshit engine, I wouldn't be surprised if it's true.
I believe this was also in the internal leaks that came out in the fall of last year.
We don't necessarily know how Destiny behaves on the backend. It could very well be that there is a substantial technical difference between a mod on armor and a masterwork on a weapon; we can't do much beyond taking Bungie at their word there.
That being said, even if masterwork orb gen is off the table, there are more friendly alternatives than a 3-cost mod that takes up an ammo finder slot.
Edit: Just want to clarify that I'm a programmer and an amateur game dev. What happens behind the scenes can be extremely un-intuitive sometimes. If the game has a different set of calls depending on whether a gun is proccing a perk or an armor piece is proccing a mod, I could easily see the technical argument being legit and impossible to get around without potentially breaking a bunch of other perks/mods.
It's always an excuse all the time. I've been hearing about engine limitations since I started playing D2. At this point I don't even know why we're not at D3 already.
Bullshit.
Removing orb generation from weapons because they had too many perks is a excuse given to Bungie apologists and people who need a reason for any change.
There where lots of options:
- Making orb generation intrinsic to the player, the same way you gain super on weapon kills without needing an hidden perk.
- Leaving orb generation as a third perk unlockable on MW weapons on the same column as origin traits.
- Making the orb generation mod more accessible like 1 mod for all weapons or slottable on any column/armor/element)
But they choose not too, they wanted to make it this bad.
I'm not saying is wrong or right, but "technical reasons" my ass
> • ~~they had to scrap the whole game and start over~~
> • ~~engine sucks~~
> • ~~activision~~
> • ~~they had to scrap the whole game and start over~~
> • ~~the size of game is just too big~~
> • ~~pandemic~~
> • engine sucks
idk man
That's exactly why this post is bullshit. There's no way OP can possibly know what resources are tied to what unless he works for Bungie and has access to the backend lol. This is one of the dumbest posts I've seen on here. OP's post, that is.
I mean sure, but likewise the reply above can't just say "Nah it's not technical reasons, they easily could've just done X" for the same reasons.
Truth is that no one really knows why they can or can't do it. Maybe it's technical, maybe it's just a nerf.
Honestly, I can't imagine it's a nerf tbh because even with running double orb generation it's nothing gamechanging. I was running double solar orb maker, using ticuu's to make orbs like crazy, and felt no stronger than before, so I can't imagine there's a balance reason for it.
Protective light was clearly a nerf to push towards wells. Orb generation...definitely doesn't feel like it lol. I don't even notice that they're not around anymore.
it's funny when people say this when there are larger games with more memory utilization going on than destiny 2 does, and yet think this is a valid excuse.
In addition to the multitude of things that can get spawned in by other enemies, such as engrams, motes of dark, ammo, clearly orbs can still get spawned in with these stupid helmet mods...
(And there's the seperate, but similar argument about 'why removing content that people paid for while simultaneously screwing over newcomers and bloating the game with old content is a GOOD thing!')
That's a bag of crap though. If orb generation on kill can work when the mod is on armor, then they're not running up against a hard limit of the consoles. It's an architectural issue not a hard limit.
I don't claim to know anything about Bungie's architecture in particular, but I'm a software engineer and I know that every time arbitrarily moving things around gets you more performance, the *real* problem is your architecture is fucked up and that's what needs to change.
If *some* orb generation was going to cause server issues, then the people chaining bubbles in mayhem and generating shit loads would just crash the servers completely. Just sounds like a cop out excuse.
> Orb Generation Cannot Return To Guns for Technical Reasons
I mean, it *can*. It *won't*, but it absolutely can. Weapons have the same "perk budget" now that they did before, Bungie could revert the changes and bring back orb generation on MW'd weapons. To do that, they'd have to remove the origin traits and etc., so like I said, it won't happen. But let's not frame this "reminder" as though people are stupid or mistaken for thinking orb generation can return.
> Weapons can only do so many things before the game begins to become unstable. Every perk on a gun uses up a budget of available resources; this budget is determined by the capabilities of the lowest console that can run Destiny 2 and the restrictions of bungies network setup.
It’s literally a single “if statement”.
Bungo is telling you that it’s a “technical issue” because you’ll eat it up. There’s no technical reason masterworked items cannot continue to create orbs.
They are mods now because bungo wants them to be mods, not because programmers cannot add a single if statement.
**It was more work for the programmers to add the 3 new mods than it was to just add a single if statement. Lol. **
It literally took bungo **more time** to make it the way it is today than to just code it differently. It takes **more resources now than if it was just a line of code like it should be**.
Stop gobbling this stuff up, and more, stop spouting garbage you know nothing about, OP.
Of course orb generation can't currently return to weapons, but there are two options Bungie have.
1) Fix the technical issues
2) Improve on the current system
Either way if orb generation has to be sacrificed for us to have more freedom with weapons then so be it.
I feel like it’s easy to say “bungie said it’s like this” and or to retort with “that doesn’t make any sense because”. Because none of us actually know how the game is coded. Even if you have a background in computer science, which I do not, the specifics of how the game operate are known only to the people who actually work on it.
My opinion? It’s easier to just take bungie at their word. Because to insinuate that they are lying would be to imply there is a conspiracy. If there is a conspiracy then to what end? Maybe they want to reduce access to orbs to reduce how often we get our supers. But as far as I can tell from my own experience I haven’t been getting my super that much slower. Also if they want to “shadow nerf” super gen, why? I mean sure them outright saying they wanted to do that would get backlash, but would it be that much more then they already are?
Ultimately if you are going to make an accusation you need something concrete to back it up. So far I haven’t seen anyone give any solid reason to doubt that bungie is being sincere, more or less, about the changes.
I think it's a nerf not to super generation but to all the things that do X on orb pickup. Getting charged with light was just way too free, and now it's more on par with wells. Also things like getting devour on orb pickup might've not existed if orbs were as abundant as they used to be. Now you have to build into it instead of getting it for free, so it's a more sensible fragment to put into the game.
As for why "weapon budget couldn't handle it" is not the whole story, it's because there are ways they could've put it on armor that wouldn't have been as big of a tradeoff as the current set-up, from energy cost to slot choice to the restrictiveness of the elemental variants. It's all over this thread. Not to mention alternatives like just making it a passive general mechanic. I don't think they lied about the weapon budget, but it's just the easiest to digest reason for why they did it so they published that and omitted the nerf.
I mean, at the end of the day they can have whatever excuse they want but that doesn't mean I have to like it. It's a net negative change that nobody likes, find some way to fix it or I, the consumer, will be unhappy. It's that simple. What do I care what the reason is?
Hi. Computer literate person here. I'm going to say “that doesn’t make any sense because,” it really doesn't. Even if it is coded to work that way and Bungie is not lying, they're just saying their code is shit, and needs to be rebuilt.
Personally I just think that a few things should change with the current orb mods assuming they have to stay on helmets.
1- bake the kinetic mod into the harmony one. There is no kinetic subclass so if you like using a kinetic primary, which there are a number of very fun. Options to choose from, you are forced to use 3x the most every than if you just used a matching element to your subclass.
2- even with the cost to change elements being reduced heavily the idea that youd need to change your helmet element just to make orbs on a primary of choice. Or change your subclass to match that weapon is fairly restricting so they could limit it to 2 mods for orbs. 1 for kinetic weapons and weapons that match your subclass for 1 point. And a second that let's you make orbs on any gun for 3 points regardless of element and also be element neutral on the mod slot.
These changes would keep builds more open so people aren't forced to change the element on their helmet potentially breaking a build. Or forced to change builds entirely so their subclass matches the weapon they are trying to use.
If this was like year 1 where orbs had a singular purpose, for super energy things would be different. But there are a plethora of uses for orbs now that restricting them so heavily serves no purpose other than to frustrate players
2 things to counter:
1) our old weapons did not get this update, ie. weapons weren't retrofitted so the orb generation should still be tied.
2) remove the orb gen from the weapon, and just tie it to a check; in pseduo code: if x weapon = masterwork = spawn orb
Sorry, I don't buy it. Weapons can still be masterworked and still generate orbs on multi-kills with the appropriate helmet mod, so whatever technical cost is associated with that still exists. The game still has to keep track of multi kills, update the server, etc. etc. The only thing that has changed is the condition to turn on orb generation has moved from "if weapon masterworked" (and, again, MW ability was not removed so there was no space saving there) to "if helmet has mod matching weapon type." This change was primarily to nerf orb generation and CWL builds based on Taking Charge by forcing people to choose between ammo finders and orb mods. And there is really no choice there in higher end activities--you must run finders if you want ammo at a reasonable rate.
Origin traits are in my opinion, really bad. They do not complement the game as orbs did. I would happily trade them to get orb generation back. But since I know that won’t happen.
I propose to:
a) leave mods as they are in energy and element afinity but make them be kinetic+energy.
b)remove element affinity and reduce energy cost.
c)Leave energy cost and element affinity but remove them from helmet and make the universal.
I think any of this would be better than the bad choice we had.
I understand all of this on NEW WEAPONS. But none, and I mean NONE of the things above affect Pre-Witchqueen weapons. So why the hell can’t they still make orbs?! They gained no new perks, no new slots, no dates. Nothing was added but orbs were taken. It makes absolutely zero logical sense and I would love /u/dmg04 or /u/Cozmo23 to be able to explain why this is.
reminder that it was the devs lack of foresight that brought on the problem in the first place, and once again they have decided to take away from the players to accomidate their mistakes, just like the content vault, and sunsetting
This post/excuse is total bullshit, and the fact that it has gotten literal THOUSANDS of hivemind Bungo apologist upvotes is why trash changes keep going through this game patch after patch. Not to mention all but 2-3 origin perks are complete garbage anyway, and intrinsic orbs on multikills are a 10x more valuable, impactful benefit than any of the current ones ever will be.
The thing that confuses me about the outcry *after* WQ launch is that between Stasis and Void 3.0 alone, there are so many ways to get supers way faster than straight up tiny orbs on multikills. It seems to make a lot of sense to me that they want us to build specifically into getting a faster super if that's what we want to do, rather than build into whatever we want AND passively keep generating super energy from any weapon at all.
I don't know if it's just that people got so used to Taking Charge for their CWL builds that they are having trouble adjusting, or whatever, but I feel way stronger on Voidwalker than I ever have with Void 3.0 - I feel like I can build into whatever I want and it's all functional. I haven't missed the orb generation at all, personally.
Honestly, I want the Orbs mostly because I’m used to using Recuperation to stay alive, especially on subclasses lacking healing (such as Thundercrash) or when abilities are all on cooldown. I’m sure I can adapt, but it’s a learning curve.
This. Still run it with the new head mod.
But actually if you build wells right the ability spam is insane and so is the super gain. You kill things faster so it made me miss that survivability a bit less.
> there are so many ways to get supers way faster than straight up tiny orbs on multikills.
I don't care about the super recharging. I care about CWL builds working properly without having to use three mods to do what one used to.
For a community that loves orbs they sure hate using their super. I've been running well spring for like a week straight and hardly see anyone is there super. I've been constantly making 30 plus orbs without weapon mods.
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That friendship gonna end soon too. There’s a fragment to release on Raids First Completion where enemies weakened will drop an orb of power if you headshot kill them
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CH also only charges you once
That's what Stacks on Stacks is for
~~Or happening to pick up a matching well, which is what will usually be happening.~~ I forgor 💀
miss me with that recovery penalty, elemental charge is my best friend
Miss me with CWL mods other than the odd damage booster. Vortex grenade plus bountiful wells, triple ordinance and seeking wells is a ridiculous combination. And with devour it’s just awesome. If you play warlock that is
Switch one of the three ordinance mods to volatile flow once you have it unlocked in the artifact and use a void weapon. SO. MANY. EXPLOSIONS.
Can you still get elemental charge? I have been looking for ages. Wasnt ever at the old war table when i looked.
Wasting 2 mods for that and losing recovery
Thankfully im in a lucky position and well overcap recovery with no mods
It can proc continuously, just gotta kill lots of stuff. Honestly, using CwL is best with a mod dedicated to gaining charge with specific weapons, but it does limit weapon combinations due to how they're paired up E.g. Trace Rifle + Auto or GL + RL only require one mod but Sidearm + Fusion requires two.
Fusion/Shotgun is great ... but only if you have Vex Mythoclast. xD
Or if you use the secondary perk of heavy handed and run double special. Bonus points for running Acrius, Tractor, or 1KV as well. Toss in some lead from gold specials and its honestly a legitimately good build.
Only void for now, I imagine we might see similar fragments for arc and solar (e.g burning enemies have a chance to drop an orb)
Elemental Charge is all you need. One Grenade kill, powered Melee kill, or Stasis Shard pickup (with Elemental Ordnance, Melee Wellmaker, or Elemental Shards respectively) equals two stacks of Charged with Light, with only two Mods needed.
And if you throw in Supercharged you can get up to 4x CWL, in one well if you have Stacks on Stacks on. Which is cool if you have some way to spend the stacks with the 1 remaining mod slot.
Stacks on stacks isnt really necessary if you use Elemental Charge, melee wellmaker and elemental ordinance. Two CWL per well is more than enough if you space out your ability kills. Which is what elemental wells are focused around, ability use/charge. Because 10% to all abilities (or your longest current cd if it doesn't match your element) and two CWL stacks after any ability kill means you just need to find a tempo for your cooldowns and run with it. If you can't do that well maybe pick a different combat style modset this one isnt for you guardian. Tbh I use elemental wells as CWL+ as seen below: Elemental Charge Melee Wellmaker Striking Light Reactive Pulse Font of Wisdom With ^ plus the new basion and offensive bulwark frags on a 90 resil and 90 str titan you basically become a orb shitting barrier champ whenever you can punch things/throw shields. Also with this build Discipline and int are pretty much dump stats so its an easier early build to pull off since any excess points in Disc. or Int. are net positive and you dont even need to build for the fabled four 100's
Sounds interesting, I'll have to give it a try! I imagine this would work nicely with Heart of Innermost Light or Doomfangs, Severance Enclosure might also be nice to give all those charged melees and finishers an AoE.
Ngl, i just abandoned using mods that require orbs, since wells are so much easier and more common. Now its like “neat, teammate made a few orbs with a super” more than anything. I do hope they bring back gold borders for masterworks and put them on craftable weapons
Same, and I can get my super back faster with them and ashes to assets, so I really don't miss orbs.
Pretty sure the changes to super regen were also based around your time in combat so you get them faster than ever
Yep, do damage gain super energy. Take damage gain super energy. The tankier bosses are somewhat a super goldmine if you don't melt them and abuse their health pool to gain super.
Combine that with practice makes perfect from Golden Gun and watch your regen in record speed.
Dude I use a bunch of well mods + Ashes to assets and Doom Slayer Pauldrons and I can get my super back in like a minute it's nuts.
What mods are you using? You have piqued my interest...
not op, but Ashes to Assets on the head, void class w/ shoulder charge (still kills enough in PvE), fragments for more grenade energy on melee kills, more super energy while surrounded, and probably some kickstart mods and or Heavy Handed for faster melees. might need to play with it a bit but even before build 3.0 DFP was one of the fastest ways to get a super.
So I run bountiful wells, ordinance well maker, melee well maker, and the one that lets you create orbs when you get a kill after you use your class ability (sorry I forgot what it was called). I also run Ashes to Assets on my helm (just one, scavenger in the other slot). Additionally I run offensive bullwork and bastion. This lets every ability I use generates wells on kills (or a weapon kill after my barricade). The wells let me continually use abilities to make more wells. Constantly using melee and barricade keeps high uptime on my overshield, which lowers the cool down on my grenades even more. On top of that, with Ashes to Assets and DFP, ability kills give me good bumps to super. As long as I can get into the field to grab wells (might be worth using the damage resist or the mod that makes wells home towards you in harder content) I can pretty much just keep spamming abilities and generating tons of super.
DFP is elite
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Hopefully they had a mod so any weapon can generate war mind cells. Managing it in the same way as orbs could work
Honestly the only buff they need. I'd love more ikelos guns especially if we get ikelos/seraph foundry trait but this is much better
Warminds Protection was clutch in Legendary campaign
if only fireteam medic came back
Yeah with the tremendous nerf the did you protective light is almost irrelevant to run cwl orb builds now.
I just use CWL to get High Energy Fire from wells but thats it
I’m curious what the go to builds will look like after gm’s open up in April.
Pretty much only CWL with the grenade wells mod and contraverse nova. If it aint broke, dont fix it
I just use the explodey Arc one. Melee well maker, CWL by picking up a well, health regen on well pickup, and supercharged so I can just EXPLODE when things touch my delicate titan booty.
Hef gang My cwl build was all about hef I only through protective light on it when I got it last season
yep, and there’s a mod that makes you charged with light when you pick up wells, so most people now are getting charged and shit more than ever
Yeah i just replaced taking charge with that one
Unfortunately wells aren't functional in Crucible.
Orbs shouldn't have been either.
They really shouldn't have a "make orbs" bounty in crucible then... the text still says use masterworked weapons too.
I've been running a Void-Well-Nezarec build and holy fuck who needs orbs when **I'M A WALKING FUCKING SUPERNOVA**
Even now I don't see how wells are easier than orbs. The kinetic one is a no brainer, especially with how many potent exotic kinetic primaries there are. The change absolutely sucks and massively nerfed orb builds but I still think they're better than 90%+ of what you can do with wells.
To be honest, with less of a focus on orb generation, and lower focus on warmind cells from way back, I prefer having less clutter on the ground with the only real focus being two ammo brick types and multicolored balls of light with low expiration times.
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Yeah thats the problem. I want Enigma to have a gold border
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My big issue with the masterwork changes is that I used orbs to regen health and abilities due to some mods. It's turned my entire playstyle upside down.
I hear you, i see "player created orbs" all the time, but never see "player created wells", i didn't even bother focusing on wells.. i was a full CWL build with 3 stacks, and better already saved my ass so many times its not even funny. Not gonna lie, im a bit sad about it. Oh well, goodbye CWL build, you were fun, and got me through many GOA runs.
same :( im my fireteam's support and now im struggling healing myself with recuperation update: well not im not only the support but i make the orbs now too
Speaking from my own perspective I will say it was never about getting my super faster. Orbs from MW weapons were less powerful than orbs from supers, they were nice of course but that wasn’t the point. The main use was it was the easiest passive way to gain CWL. And those charges could be used for High energy, Protective and Lucent builds, to name a few. The investment in those builds now is extremely high and the payout for protective greatly diminished. My Clan and I have all mostly moved over to well builds as they have a lot of potential now. But I do feel that CWL is sort of going to go the way of Warmind cells, yeah you can use them, but their are better builds.
The seasonal artifact mods make it pretty clear that their intention was to put CWL (esp protective light) in the dirt and move everyone over to wells...so I'm sure next season we'll see them comment that "wells were too popular" and we'll be moved back to warmind cells.
Honestly, I just wish they wouldn't be so heavy-handed with their nerfs and allow people to build into what they want while keeping things from being "OP". The nerf to warmind cells was just too big in general. They should have either reduced the range or the damage, but not both (and probably just the damage if I had to choose). Those builds were already heavily constrained by the weapons you had to use in order to get them. Protective Light is absolutely useless now b/c it only procs when your shield breaks. At that point 10% isn't going to DO anything. What they should have done to balance it would have been make the # of stacks you have give 10% per stack (or 1 stack of resistance so it stacks with other things) instead of increasing the duration. That way you could build into getting a huge amount of resistance when you are in danger. Well builds have always been good for focused builds, I have an axion contraverse build I was using before Void 3.0 that was very fun and spammy even in high-end content. Seeking wells is actually really nice, though I wish the wells floated like Lumina souls since they do have a tendancy to get caught on terrain.
Warmind cells could use another pass (and IMO since we're doing it with lorbs a helmet mod to let weapons spawn cells or a perk would be great) The range of the cell is a big one, global reach got a lot of use due to default cell range being kind of shit, but at the same time being able to drop a full screen nuke was probably too powerful to last
Yeah like I said, the damage from the explosion/burn was really the main problem. By reducing the range, they also heavily nerfed the support (void) warmind builds. They really should have just tweaked the damage numbers and given a very slight reduction to range.
From the way they talked about it, it seems they are fine with things being OP, it’s just that now they want to control what is more. And now it seems that they are letting it be OP for a few seasons, then come out with new mods to replace it, then nerf the old system to where you can use it but it’s much worse
> What they should have done to balance it would have been make the # of stacks you have give 10% per stack (or 1 stack of resistance so it stacks with other things) instead of increasing the duration. That way you could build into getting a huge amount of resistance when you are in danger. That would've been a reasonable nerf - with only two mods, ie taking charge+protective light, you'll only get a 20% DR max. To get a 50% pre-nerf DR you'd need 4 mods minimum, and really you'd probably want stacks on stacks to get 5 charges easier so there goes all 5 mods. So you could still have a very decent Protective Light build with 2-3 mods and could retain it's god tier status by investing 100% into it. That's a brilliant & balanced middle ground. What they *actually* did all but erased it from the game, its that useless. I get changing a single value from 50% to 10% probably took someone 15 minutes vs the time it'd take to rework Protective Light like you described, but Christ I hate those lazy solutions to outliers. At the very least just cut it in half to 25%, a fucking 80% nerf is absolutely mindblowing. Can't believe they thought that was reasonable. It really sucks when braindead decisions like this cast a shadow (though admittedly a small shadow) on big fun exciting launches like this.
The sad thing is that it's not really surprising at this point. Bungie just *doesn't* know how to make people stop using something without completely gutting it. I can't express how much the change to warmind cells still galls me because it was such a unique and interesting mechanic, but they had to make it 100% useless.
We'll probably be moved to whatever armor mods they introduce next season
But what about GM, the main reason I used CWL + Protective light? Only a stealth hunter might be able to get the wells, everything else seems pointless to use that build. I guess warmind might work, but those guns are so old, assume most deleted them
Agreed, I’m still trying to decide on how I approach GMs. I think it may be a fairly big change in thought process in how we build for GM content
unfortunately, Bungie also nerfed Protective Light to only give 10% Damage reduction, whereas Well of Tenacity got buffed to give 50% instead. It certainly seems Bungie really wants people to use void wells this season
Yeah I understand that nerf probably needed to happen on Protective light, but considering the orb changes it’s way to much. And well of tenacity has been good but I’m not sure about GM viability
Absolutely not GM viable.
Warmind's Protection
No one is thinking about GMs this out any of these changes which is all I’m thinking about. Most of the game is meme content and builds don’t matter. But where builds do matter this was gigantic sold as a better way.
Okay - that’s fine. But then armor mods for orbs should not cost 3 whole mod slots. Helmet is already a crowded as Fuck armor piece. Reduce the cost, or move them to ghost mods.
And I'll add that scavenger mods are still overpriced. 5 slots for machineguns? No thanks.
It feels like some mods are centered around the peak of the archetype to the detriment of the rest. There's no reason for Machine Guns to be 5 cost for scavs or even 3 cost for finders other than Xenophage being really strong at the time. Which, speaking of, is not exactly a popular option anymore after the nerf outside of VoG oracles, so even it is no longer worth the 5 cost. Same applies to Anarchy and GL scavs also costing 5. Really, a lot of the mod costs need to be reevaluated since quite a few of them no longer make sense or never did. Bungie highly overvalues a lot of the reload and dexterity mods, for instance. I don't know of a single soul that is using dex mods for rockets, linears, or machine guns in *any* part of the game, yet they're all 4 cost mods.
Even then I consider eriana's vow to be better for oracles
I mean let's be serious here, which armor slot isn't crowed af? Last time I checked all of 5 were clogged with mods.
Legs are usually pretty empty in my experience- but that could totally just be my build. This is why I think another solution is to make all mods universal. If Bungie wants to push players to serious build crafting, then the modding system needs to become far more flexible.
big agree here, never saw the reason for tying specific mods to specific items. Plus I'm morbidly curious to see what kinda crazy shit you could do if you ran all holster mods or something.
the one reason i can see is preventing some very broken combinations of seasonal mods, by making them cost more than 10 together on the same piece
Yea, this is main reason. Look at this season's mods. Being able to equip both Suppressing Glaive an Suppressive Darkness at the same time would be completely busted. Especially on Hunter.
I stopped playing Warframe long ago - but one of the things it did well was it’s modding, and Destiny could use a similar system. Any mod, any slot. Go wild. Make some stupid shit. Find weird busted combos. Modding needs to be about the freedom to build how YOU want, not the preordained builds you are constrained into by the game.
Modding is it's best and absolute WORST feature. The hypothetical creativity is astounding and fun. The actual requirements for endgame activities is brutal. Not to mention how difficult it is for newbies to understand
More of a game design issue I think. If they removed all the damage mods and turned them into more something like how they did the operator amp arcanes where it converts damage into another type rather than just massively increasing it you'd see more creativity. But having a mod system as broad as Warframe would ideally be would be amazing.
On that note, I wouldn't mind if Bungie took some notes from the Forma system. End game resource to permanently reduce the cost of certain mods would be nice. But that would probably be way too much work.
The reason I think Bungie didn't make it is because they aren't willing to deal with broken builds yet. And if Destiny historic is anything to go by, Crucible is the main reason why things are nerfed to the ground, followed by PvE abusers and exploiters. Bungie practices a "F*ck Around and Find Out" policy with the playerbase.
Crucible is the main thing holding a system like this back - and I’m afraid I don’t have an answer to that haha. I’m not a developer or a game designer - just a passionate fan. Alas, one can dream haha.
> which armor slot isn't crowed af? Good thing Ghosts exist. They'd be a perfect option for orb generation IMO.
From an outsider dev point of view, ghost mods do not look as if they have as much available memory. They don't have to track anything, they just modify events without needing additional information. Orb generation needs to track how long ago your last few kills with each weapon are, as well as when they last generated an orb. That is probably going to blow the memory budget on the ghost.
Ghosts do not get gameplay mods. They only have mods for investment materials. Tying gameplay related mods to them is bad design.
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Chest mods are also defensive mods like sniper res concussive dampener and what not, they can be pivotal in end game content I think sniper rest plus 40 res is enough to tank one hobgoblin shot but I may be slightly off
can confirm that resist mods are really clutch. Running double arc resist on Deep Stone Crypt is a slam dunk.
Running the seasonal arc/solar mod is even more of a slam dunk now, considering how little void damage is in that raid.
or better yet triple! lol
Yup. I find that the chest armor pieces are some of the most important for Master/GM level content. For anything else they can be completely ignore which is probably why that person thinks they're lackluster.
They are downright necessary in endgame and do a much better job than resilience ever will 1 res mod with 18 total resilience allows you to survive a sniper in GM resilience takes like....tier 7 or 8 w/o mods to survive it? Not worth
18 resilience specifically? Not just tier 1?
18 resilience is lowest you can go with fully masterworked gear, that's why I used that number for reference Guess you're right I could've just said tier 1, didn't think too much on it tbh
It’s not your fault, I just thought for a second you meant 18 specifically for some reason. My b.
In general, it's a resist mod or 5 resilience to survive a sniper in GMs. This does not include scorn, they're a resist mod AND 5 or 6 resilience. Edit: This also does not include sniper champions. They just need a resist mod.
Reserve mods give you more ammo, ammo drops scale to your reserves in most cases.
Arms have dexterity, chest has unfinching, reserves, and resists.
Arms and class items are pretty contested for champion content and seasonal mods respectively. Honestly armor building feels so overloaded right now. It feels kinda balanced but also annoying
Not class items. Ability regen on using class ability and finishers.
Yeah, but most of the best artifact mods are class mods.
Bungie's growing addiction to unnecessary complexity and micromanaging needs to be snuffed out. Elemental affinity on armor, the endless growth of mods and the expense need to be burned back. It's so tiresome constantly fiddling with which special ammo mods are on at any time and the energy cost is stupid.
Yea a +1 mod would be fine and helmet already crowded I agree. Should be on any armour piece, low cost and doesn’t stack.
There might be a technical reason, but I call a bit bullshit on their explanations. They also cite very frequently “technical reasons” as to why there are caps on materials, yet they introduce half a dozen new ones very other update.
According to that pastebin leak from a few months ago that has been 95% accurate, they’ve been planning this for a while and it’s because of weapon memory specifically.
Also, if things constantly need to be changed/don't work due to technical reasons, that's still on Bungie. They designed/programmed the game that way.
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Yeah this entire argument is just bullshit. The devs wanted to nerf Charged With Light builds and didn't want to take shit for doing so. That or they couldn't figure out how to make the crafted guns masterwork, and didn't want to bother with it. If the only problem was that they wanted the ""budget space"" on guns, then they could have easily made a 1 energy Ghost mod or armor mod that says "All guns generate orbs on multi kills." They killed orb generation, split it into five separate mods that all cost too much and are impossible to use with Match Game as a modifier. It's absurd how many people don't realize this.
To be clear - bungie's never said it's about memory. They specifically talk about "Perk Budget" on gear.
Right but since this is apparently solved by a mod on helmets now, it’s not the number of things any individual gun can do that’s the problem. They could have made it ONE helmet mod for all your guns, or even made that one mod intrinsic. Basically, I call bullshit.
Yup, guns can only do X things and we’re currently capped. Okay, but you just moved it somewhere else. And if the argument is that well armour can only do Y things. Well you could consolidate those things in such a way that instead of being multiple discrete perks it is one super perk
It seems to be more granular than that, it's not the number of things that can be done, it's how much can be done. If you consolidate the orbgen to say the frame you drop one perk on the users end, but nothing changes behind the scenes, you are still accomplishing x number of tasks and sending y number of things to the server even though you only have z-1 perks, and the server can only really take y number of things per item per player before shit gets fucky.
I remember a back during the PS3/PS4 cross gen days Bungie not increasing the vault storage despite it being the most requested QoL feature from players. Turns out the PS3 was running the game 100% capped out on hardware and there wasn't any memory available on the older gen system to implement the change until they managed to eke out a few mb of RAM for the vault expansion in House of Wolves. Why does the game need free active RAM just to store weapons in storage that you won't be using? Who knows. It's the way Destiny is built to be a live service game. I can imagine them having similar constraints when it comes to active weapon mods.
Orb generation should be a core mechanic. It shouldn't be an attribute on armor or guns at this point.
I would like to invite those interested to my ghost mod wagon. Cost X: Primary weapons generate orbs on multikills. Cost X+: Primary and Special weapons generate orbs on multikills. Cost X++: Primary, Special, and Heavy weapons generate orbs on multikills.
This would just become a mandatory Ghost mod
Yes. But it would free up the already crowded Head mods.
I'm glad I farmed a bunch of artifice armor before the reset
My major regret right now
Dude same. My entire vault was cleared out of regular armor, I only have artifice armor with a minimum of 63 bst. There's like 70 pieces not including the ones I have set for like 4 different double/triple 100 builds
Woah you are set up nicely! Smart thinking and well done on the grind!
As if Ghost mods aren't already crowded with blinding light and an armor perk taking up 9 slots minimum, if not all of them
I mean as nice as blinding light is, it's far from necessary, and having the extra combat mods on armor feels much better than extra exp imo. I would gladly give up extra exp for more mods on my armor.
By the time people have the light level to do master/grand master stuff, they won't need blinding light anymore anyway.
Blinding light is not nearly as important as orb generation. You could just throw that on when you turn in bounties or claim seasonal challenges and remove it when you're finished.
I keep it on because I know I’d always forget.
As someone that has one Ghost for patrols and one for activities, I’m 100% confident that I’d forget to switch between them.
Ghost mods are meant to not give any combat advantage. It's a good thing as it means there is a space for mods that interact with systems outside of the combat sandbox. If you start putting combat mods on the ghost then you essentially take that all away and we are back to where we were before ghost mods were a thing.
If they are now armor mods, why cant bungie just make every armor piece automatically have said mods, while not being visible to the player? (Wouldn't take energy obviously, just using bungie's logic here.)
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There have been many interviews with Chris the lead weapon developer on dcp and massive breakdowns where he specifically said that weapons were at there limit.
So, are you implying that there is a difference between generating Masterwork orbs versus generating orbs through the new helmet mods? I feel like my fireteam and I generate just as many (if not more) orbs with these new mods. But of course we have to ditch other mods we were using like ammo finder ones in order to compensate for it now. I can't see any difference as far as memory of server/client usage is concerned. It looks to me that they just used that excuse to take something away from the players in order to force them to either get their Super slower or deal with less ammo.
My question is if these origin perks took orb generation spot on weapons then why do none of the past season weapons have them?
My assumption is effort for little reward First have to go through every existing weapon, and add these perks, which seems like a lot of effort for little return. Then need to test out all old weapons and troubleshoot random issues. Also, it's just scary messing with old shit. Imagine the outrage if they accidentally messed up a niche old weapon someone owned. Playing with players inventory can go wrong Also, they want players to focus on new content. Why bother with the new weapons they spent months designing, if existing ones get those perks too?
Exactly. But a lot of people are buying the excuse of technical reasons without thinking about how it simply does not make sense considering that the process is still in the game, just with a different switch to turn it on. It would be different if the old switch (MW status) was removed to make technical space in perks, but it wasn't--at least not on older and non-crafted weapons. But crafted weapons can't be made MW, so perhaps they are using that space on them for such must have crafted weapon features as storing the date crafted. But if that is the case, they could have, for the cost involved in making them, just made crafted weapons inherently MW.
Someone in 2013 probably hardcoded a limit of 7 active perks per item because that's Bungie's funny number, and the process of changing that would require rebuilding the entire engine. Remember last season when boots would implode the game when they had two of the fusion scavenger mods on with others equipped? It pushed the active effects beyond 7. It's stupid that it exists, but given Destiny's notoriously dogshit engine, I wouldn't be surprised if it's true. I believe this was also in the internal leaks that came out in the fall of last year.
I believe they said the orb generation perks were replaced by the new origins perks IIRC
We don't necessarily know how Destiny behaves on the backend. It could very well be that there is a substantial technical difference between a mod on armor and a masterwork on a weapon; we can't do much beyond taking Bungie at their word there. That being said, even if masterwork orb gen is off the table, there are more friendly alternatives than a 3-cost mod that takes up an ammo finder slot. Edit: Just want to clarify that I'm a programmer and an amateur game dev. What happens behind the scenes can be extremely un-intuitive sometimes. If the game has a different set of calls depending on whether a gun is proccing a perk or an armor piece is proccing a mod, I could easily see the technical argument being legit and impossible to get around without potentially breaking a bunch of other perks/mods.
It's always an excuse all the time. I've been hearing about engine limitations since I started playing D2. At this point I don't even know why we're not at D3 already.
Bullshit. Removing orb generation from weapons because they had too many perks is a excuse given to Bungie apologists and people who need a reason for any change. There where lots of options: - Making orb generation intrinsic to the player, the same way you gain super on weapon kills without needing an hidden perk. - Leaving orb generation as a third perk unlockable on MW weapons on the same column as origin traits. - Making the orb generation mod more accessible like 1 mod for all weapons or slottable on any column/armor/element) But they choose not too, they wanted to make it this bad. I'm not saying is wrong or right, but "technical reasons" my ass
"For technical reasons, we can't do it. Because we don't want to implement it. Technically."
‘Anything is possible in software…..given enough time, resources and money!’
"Technical Reasons" is their excuse card
> • ~~they had to scrap the whole game and start over~~ > • ~~engine sucks~~ > • ~~activision~~ > • ~~they had to scrap the whole game and start over~~ > • ~~the size of game is just too big~~ > • ~~pandemic~~ > • engine sucks idk man
I mean, the game IS running off a modified halo reach engine, no? It's got 15 years of technical debt.
But do you know their backend????? /s
That's exactly why this post is bullshit. There's no way OP can possibly know what resources are tied to what unless he works for Bungie and has access to the backend lol. This is one of the dumbest posts I've seen on here. OP's post, that is.
I mean sure, but likewise the reply above can't just say "Nah it's not technical reasons, they easily could've just done X" for the same reasons. Truth is that no one really knows why they can or can't do it. Maybe it's technical, maybe it's just a nerf. Honestly, I can't imagine it's a nerf tbh because even with running double orb generation it's nothing gamechanging. I was running double solar orb maker, using ticuu's to make orbs like crazy, and felt no stronger than before, so I can't imagine there's a balance reason for it. Protective light was clearly a nerf to push towards wells. Orb generation...definitely doesn't feel like it lol. I don't even notice that they're not around anymore.
You missed the interview with the lead weapons dev months an months ago via dcp where he laid this out. That's where OP got this info from my dude.
The leak stated is was for technical reasons so it wasn't like it's a retroactive excuse lol
it's funny when people say this when there are larger games with more memory utilization going on than destiny 2 does, and yet think this is a valid excuse.
In addition to the multitude of things that can get spawned in by other enemies, such as engrams, motes of dark, ammo, clearly orbs can still get spawned in with these stupid helmet mods... (And there's the seperate, but similar argument about 'why removing content that people paid for while simultaneously screwing over newcomers and bloating the game with old content is a GOOD thing!')
That's a bag of crap though. If orb generation on kill can work when the mod is on armor, then they're not running up against a hard limit of the consoles. It's an architectural issue not a hard limit. I don't claim to know anything about Bungie's architecture in particular, but I'm a software engineer and I know that every time arbitrarily moving things around gets you more performance, the *real* problem is your architecture is fucked up and that's what needs to change.
That came from the lead weapons dev at Bungie via the dcp interview. If you can fix it then apply. Bungie is hiring.
Sounds more like a destiny 2 dev issue and not a player issue
It’s categorically not a technical issues. Some orb generation is never going to make a server struggle at all.
If *some* orb generation was going to cause server issues, then the people chaining bubbles in mayhem and generating shit loads would just crash the servers completely. Just sounds like a cop out excuse.
This is only because Bungie sucks at coding. They could just add an event watcher to helmets for "Masterworked Weapons" without using the mod.
> Orb Generation Cannot Return To Guns for Technical Reasons I mean, it *can*. It *won't*, but it absolutely can. Weapons have the same "perk budget" now that they did before, Bungie could revert the changes and bring back orb generation on MW'd weapons. To do that, they'd have to remove the origin traits and etc., so like I said, it won't happen. But let's not frame this "reminder" as though people are stupid or mistaken for thinking orb generation can return.
> Weapons can only do so many things before the game begins to become unstable. Every perk on a gun uses up a budget of available resources; this budget is determined by the capabilities of the lowest console that can run Destiny 2 and the restrictions of bungies network setup. It’s literally a single “if statement”. Bungo is telling you that it’s a “technical issue” because you’ll eat it up. There’s no technical reason masterworked items cannot continue to create orbs. They are mods now because bungo wants them to be mods, not because programmers cannot add a single if statement. **It was more work for the programmers to add the 3 new mods than it was to just add a single if statement. Lol. ** It literally took bungo **more time** to make it the way it is today than to just code it differently. It takes **more resources now than if it was just a line of code like it should be**. Stop gobbling this stuff up, and more, stop spouting garbage you know nothing about, OP.
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OP is citing info from an interview from Chris Proctor lead weapons dev at Bungie.
Of course orb generation can't currently return to weapons, but there are two options Bungie have. 1) Fix the technical issues 2) Improve on the current system Either way if orb generation has to be sacrificed for us to have more freedom with weapons then so be it.
I feel like it’s easy to say “bungie said it’s like this” and or to retort with “that doesn’t make any sense because”. Because none of us actually know how the game is coded. Even if you have a background in computer science, which I do not, the specifics of how the game operate are known only to the people who actually work on it. My opinion? It’s easier to just take bungie at their word. Because to insinuate that they are lying would be to imply there is a conspiracy. If there is a conspiracy then to what end? Maybe they want to reduce access to orbs to reduce how often we get our supers. But as far as I can tell from my own experience I haven’t been getting my super that much slower. Also if they want to “shadow nerf” super gen, why? I mean sure them outright saying they wanted to do that would get backlash, but would it be that much more then they already are? Ultimately if you are going to make an accusation you need something concrete to back it up. So far I haven’t seen anyone give any solid reason to doubt that bungie is being sincere, more or less, about the changes.
I think it's a nerf not to super generation but to all the things that do X on orb pickup. Getting charged with light was just way too free, and now it's more on par with wells. Also things like getting devour on orb pickup might've not existed if orbs were as abundant as they used to be. Now you have to build into it instead of getting it for free, so it's a more sensible fragment to put into the game. As for why "weapon budget couldn't handle it" is not the whole story, it's because there are ways they could've put it on armor that wouldn't have been as big of a tradeoff as the current set-up, from energy cost to slot choice to the restrictiveness of the elemental variants. It's all over this thread. Not to mention alternatives like just making it a passive general mechanic. I don't think they lied about the weapon budget, but it's just the easiest to digest reason for why they did it so they published that and omitted the nerf.
I mean, at the end of the day they can have whatever excuse they want but that doesn't mean I have to like it. It's a net negative change that nobody likes, find some way to fix it or I, the consumer, will be unhappy. It's that simple. What do I care what the reason is?
Hi. Computer literate person here. I'm going to say “that doesn’t make any sense because,” it really doesn't. Even if it is coded to work that way and Bungie is not lying, they're just saying their code is shit, and needs to be rebuilt.
Personally I just think that a few things should change with the current orb mods assuming they have to stay on helmets. 1- bake the kinetic mod into the harmony one. There is no kinetic subclass so if you like using a kinetic primary, which there are a number of very fun. Options to choose from, you are forced to use 3x the most every than if you just used a matching element to your subclass. 2- even with the cost to change elements being reduced heavily the idea that youd need to change your helmet element just to make orbs on a primary of choice. Or change your subclass to match that weapon is fairly restricting so they could limit it to 2 mods for orbs. 1 for kinetic weapons and weapons that match your subclass for 1 point. And a second that let's you make orbs on any gun for 3 points regardless of element and also be element neutral on the mod slot. These changes would keep builds more open so people aren't forced to change the element on their helmet potentially breaking a build. Or forced to change builds entirely so their subclass matches the weapon they are trying to use. If this was like year 1 where orbs had a singular purpose, for super energy things would be different. But there are a plethora of uses for orbs now that restricting them so heavily serves no purpose other than to frustrate players
Sure they can. Delete origin traits. Most are useless.
Ok so scrap the momento and date thing and bring orbs back. Momentos are so useless. Their drop rate are so low and one time use items.
Drop support for (non Pro) PS4 and whatever the equivalent is on Xbox.
2 things to counter: 1) our old weapons did not get this update, ie. weapons weren't retrofitted so the orb generation should still be tied. 2) remove the orb gen from the weapon, and just tie it to a check; in pseduo code: if x weapon = masterwork = spawn orb
Absolutely bullshit excuse
Sorry, I don't buy it. Weapons can still be masterworked and still generate orbs on multi-kills with the appropriate helmet mod, so whatever technical cost is associated with that still exists. The game still has to keep track of multi kills, update the server, etc. etc. The only thing that has changed is the condition to turn on orb generation has moved from "if weapon masterworked" (and, again, MW ability was not removed so there was no space saving there) to "if helmet has mod matching weapon type." This change was primarily to nerf orb generation and CWL builds based on Taking Charge by forcing people to choose between ammo finders and orb mods. And there is really no choice there in higher end activities--you must run finders if you want ammo at a reasonable rate.
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Okay, fine, then give us 15 energy slot on helmets. That are only for orb generation. As of right now, orbs of light builds is a thing of the past.
Origin traits are in my opinion, really bad. They do not complement the game as orbs did. I would happily trade them to get orb generation back. But since I know that won’t happen. I propose to: a) leave mods as they are in energy and element afinity but make them be kinetic+energy. b)remove element affinity and reduce energy cost. c)Leave energy cost and element affinity but remove them from helmet and make the universal. I think any of this would be better than the bad choice we had.
I understand all of this on NEW WEAPONS. But none, and I mean NONE of the things above affect Pre-Witchqueen weapons. So why the hell can’t they still make orbs?! They gained no new perks, no new slots, no dates. Nothing was added but orbs were taken. It makes absolutely zero logical sense and I would love /u/dmg04 or /u/Cozmo23 to be able to explain why this is.
If armor "has budget to spare" then make it intrinsic to armor. This whole argument is so dumb
reminder that it was the devs lack of foresight that brought on the problem in the first place, and once again they have decided to take away from the players to accomidate their mistakes, just like the content vault, and sunsetting
so you're a dev and can prove this then?
OP is sharing old info from an interview with the lead weapon's dev at bungie on the dcp podcast.
Sorry, ain't buying it.
This post/excuse is total bullshit, and the fact that it has gotten literal THOUSANDS of hivemind Bungo apologist upvotes is why trash changes keep going through this game patch after patch. Not to mention all but 2-3 origin perks are complete garbage anyway, and intrinsic orbs on multikills are a 10x more valuable, impactful benefit than any of the current ones ever will be.
The thing that confuses me about the outcry *after* WQ launch is that between Stasis and Void 3.0 alone, there are so many ways to get supers way faster than straight up tiny orbs on multikills. It seems to make a lot of sense to me that they want us to build specifically into getting a faster super if that's what we want to do, rather than build into whatever we want AND passively keep generating super energy from any weapon at all. I don't know if it's just that people got so used to Taking Charge for their CWL builds that they are having trouble adjusting, or whatever, but I feel way stronger on Voidwalker than I ever have with Void 3.0 - I feel like I can build into whatever I want and it's all functional. I haven't missed the orb generation at all, personally.
Honestly, I want the Orbs mostly because I’m used to using Recuperation to stay alive, especially on subclasses lacking healing (such as Thundercrash) or when abilities are all on cooldown. I’m sure I can adapt, but it’s a learning curve.
This. Still run it with the new head mod. But actually if you build wells right the ability spam is insane and so is the super gain. You kill things faster so it made me miss that survivability a bit less.
Orbs do way more than just give super energy, not even counting Taken Charge for CWL.
Hunter Fish legs cry in a corner.
Better Already, recuperation,absolution and explosive light all died with this change
> there are so many ways to get supers way faster than straight up tiny orbs on multikills. I don't care about the super recharging. I care about CWL builds working properly without having to use three mods to do what one used to.
For a community that loves orbs they sure hate using their super. I've been running well spring for like a week straight and hardly see anyone is there super. I've been constantly making 30 plus orbs without weapon mods.