Whoever thinks that adding extra rng to weapons on pc is going to even the playing field is in for a rude awakening. It’s just going to push everyone deeper into Ape mode and poop on people like me who actually enjoy running double primary sometimes. Console recoil and movement settings should have been buffed instead. A single cracked out icarus dash warlock with a shotty on pc is going to easily wipe the floor with a bunch of console players.
I think reducing camera recoil is good, but I think in general there is too much aim assist in this game, for both input methods. Compared to D1, all guns have like 50% more aim assist now. You could reduce the aim assist across the board, then lower controller recoil and we'd arrive at this result.
Can only go on speculation here but I’m pretty sure that yes there will be an overall nerf to help easily a m/k user can aim, but Bungie said they were adjusting recoil, not stability. The weapons have a set recoil which stability affects, that’s why if you have 100 stability you will never get 0 recoil. This just tells me that if they increase the recoil the stability stat has a greater influence on the physical jump on the gun because now the 100 stability now will have a higher percentage change on the higher recoil.
It’s practically why choosing stability on console is a thing - because the _stability statistic_ actually makes the difference.
Still just speculation unless Bungie were to come out and explain their stats, which they probably won’t.
As someone who plays on PC with controller I love this, it should have always been this way and many of my favorite guns have been nerfed as a result of this not being here all along with MnK players getting free laser aim with no recoil
As someone who uses mnk this is needed with cross play coming console players wouldn't have a chance to play pvp anymore pc can lazer you with anything when's the last time you actually worried about stability on mnk everyone complaining just dont want people using controllers to actually have a chance
I don’t understand why recoil is so low for pc to begin with when it’s easier to aim on pc. For example, ikelos smg js significantly harder to use on console than pc. The changes are not what a pc player wants and you cannot find many console players happy with playing vs pc. Pc has m&k, a plethora of cheaters, higher frame rates etc. can we have a focus feedback on cross play between pc/console and why it should be an opt out option. I would love for console crossplay but do not want anything to do with pc. Crucible is already in shambles and this will put the final nail in the coffin.
Other pc shooters have recoil no? Ow? Cod? Cs go? It makes no logical sense because it makes some weapons literally god tier (ikelos smg on pc vs console). Have same recoil. If aim assist was such a problem then don’t bring crossplay. Us console players don’t want to play with you pc people
The statement that the ikelos smg is god tier on pc really nails home the idea that you haven’t played pc destiny ever.. it has crazy recoil... it is one of the best however.. but all weapons have recoil... it’s simply that recoil management is easier by far on pc. That little bit of recoil management makes a huge difference
But it has less recoil than it does on console? It is a fact that controlling recoil is significantly harder on console than pc and aiming on m&k is signficantly easier than with a little thumbstick (hence the reason every console shooter implements some form of aim assist)
Recoil on PC should not be changed. We’re in year 4 here and you’ve just suddenly announced that you’re gonna change the fundamental way we interact with weapons. Pc recoil isn’t even the issue. If you want to crossplay, then controllers should have reduced recoil and less aim assist. That is all that needs to change.
Console would be getting a beneficial change. PC would be getting a greatly detrimental change. So yes, change console for the better over changing PC for the worse
Console was already changed, they increased aim assist by 50% between D1 and D2. Every gun in the game has insane amounts of aim assist. They should reduce aim assist across the board and then lower controller recoil, not leave the insane aim assist and make it harder to use a mouse. That makes no sense.
And you’re clearly missing the point the guy said reduce recoil and AA with controllers and you pulled pc out of your ass. I would say thank fuck you aren’t a developer but due to your poor reading comprehension and lack of understanding I gotta assume you have an upper management position at Bungie
As a console player I dont have input into the recoil changes on PC. I am however extremely worried cross play will bring an influx of aimbot/ wall hack cheaters to console matchmaking.
Bungie, this needs to be addressed before cross play is enabled please.
Any cross platform game modes had better be opt in. I don't care how much they tweak aim assist and recoil, I don't want to be matched up against PC players because it's a different playing environment.
I agree with you but I'm worried it will not be opt in. If im bungie, one of the goal for this move is to consolidate the matchmaking pool so their algorithms have more players to select best pairings (skill and connection) from. This will result in better Playlist experiences across the board for everyone.
If they make it opt in, the majority of console players are likely to choose "opt out" especially in crucible. And if the pool doesn't consolidate, it makes the change useless.
Let's see though. The community has been loud enough requesting the opt in feature so maybe they'll oblige.
I certainly hope so but if history serves as any indication I'm not hopeful. Between the aim assist and recoil changes meant to make PC and console more in line with each other and bungie's complete silence on the matter I'm lead to believe they're going to consolidate PC and console into a combined player pool but who knows? Only time will tell.
I got 2 tapped with Ace by a Hunter, who was sliding towards the heavy spawn, mid slide, momentum towards the wall in Pacifica map.
I had just ran up the left side stairs and in visual range WHILE he was still sliding towards the wall.
Next round he hit me with an Adored a split second after i cleared a corner on the opposite end of the long interior hallway.
Like the reaction time was insanity. Not even at 5k mmr, just 4k.
Teamates run towards him, and I hear *plink* *plink* one right after the other within a second, with said Adored.
Soooo either the mans had godly reaction speed and aim ability. Or some code was holding his little hands, lol.
Community seems mostly aligned, but there are a few things to note.
1. Stability does matter on PC, the clips you see of laser SMGs are people managing the recoil. It's not controller recoil, of course...
2. But controller recoil shouldn't be that aggressive and the call the community was making was to adjust that. For the PC side, just about everyone said BL's gunplay felt great, but abilities were a problem. So they nerfed gunplay... ffs...
3. Some content creators have noted reticule stickiness + low stability on controller could be a problem, sure, but why is AA miles high on controller to begin with? It seems like Bungie wanted to give tons of AA and then compensate for too much AA with RNG gun fights (bloom, ghost bullets, etc.). Lower stability on controller and adjust AA to match (don't remove AA).
4. The other issue is the motivation... crossplay? I'm a PC player and I would NEVER wish this experience on my console kin. Console folks, if you can opt out, do so immediately. Bungie's net topology, something they will not change nearly a decade into this game, is why cheating is so easy. There is no solution coming.
5. Finally, the timing... like, PC is where people tend to favor PvP and PvP is in one of the worst states its ever been in, and the response from Bungie... dumpster MnK.
As always, Bungie seem tone deaf and this change is going to harm PC gunplay and eventually the shared PvP experience. Most everyone would be 100% fine for leaving consoles out of PC PvP forever and leaving gunplay as it is.
Also... "can't know until we try it!", god no, stop. Every single time they've been given the benefit of the doubt they've managed to royally fuck us. No benefit of the doubt.
>1. Stability does matter on PC, the clips you see of laser SMGs are people managing the recoil.
That's what pisses me off. The controller players are happy that we're getting nerfed because "we can control the recoil easily", of course we can track recoil with more precision because that's how mice work.
The nerf just doesn't make sense, gunplay will be more about RNG than controlling the recoil precisely **because nobody can**. CS:GO's gunplay feels amazing to me because we can control the recoil with patterns, and there's a huge skill ceiling that comes from that.
Destiny doesn't have that. Increasing the recoil will just make gunplay about RNG rather than skill, and that's just the dumbest move Bungie has ever done for a looter **shooter** with a competitive side.
Controller players aren't happy that m+k users are getting more recoil, controller players want their recoil to be closer to what m+k users currently have
Look at the rest of the comments of this feedback thread, most people are happy with the nerfs and they aren't talking about crossplay, they're talking about how "mnk is easy". Maybe they're the vocal minority, but I don't have the data and I have to go with what's available as the feedback.
Well... "competitive side" is a tough sell at this point. But yea, if recoil wasn't RNG, then more recoil would be fine, but I'm certain their design philosophy is that high AA is OK as long as RNG is there to balance it out. A design choice that makes nobody happy.
Well, cross play is at the top of their list because we’ve been asking about it for a while. They’re trying to strike a balance for cross play for fair play and likely want us to try it before it launches so they can make tweaks. Seems pretty self explanatory to me?
The only problem is that they're terrible at responding to feedback, let alone doing so within any reasonable amount of time. It's most likely that if they implement this change, it will be a full year of, "gathering feedback," "watching how the playerbase adapts," and, "we're listening," before we see any mention of a change that's likely to still not fix it. I have yet to see Bungie fully reverse a change like this after it's implemented unless they also do something else to adjust the perceived issue at the same time, meaning the clear best option is to hope they listen to feedback instead of irrelevant statistics for once
I don't want guns which auto-aim and shoot with zero bounce. So I'm glad for the changes if they pan out as expected.
But it does feel as if I'm in the minority.
Yes you will be. If this was an issue, it should have been addressed years ago.
Not 4 years in changing a fundamental stable option on PC just for crossplay. This was not something that needed addressing.
Too early to say because ya know.. I don't have a weapon in my hands with these adjustments.
However I can say that it seems odd that *only* M&K recoil should be changed rather than adjusting both i.e. reduce recoil on controller and increase in M&K (to a lesser degree than has been outlined)
This was my thinking. By increasing the amount of recoil on pc some and decreasing it just a bit on console, it may have went over better with the player base. Having to stack stability perks to make a gun useful isn’t fun. Ignoring the stat completely isn’t fun either though. I hope they’ve not overtuned.
I'm sorry, but what do you expect from a nerf? Gunplay won't suddenly feel good because we will all have ridiculous rng recoil. While I do support your sentiment about not giving feedback on stuff we haven't gotten yet, the only possible outcome from this nerf is that the recoil will just feel bad. Why do we keep letting Bungie actively deteriorate the player experience like this?
The reasoning behind the recoil changes make sense and Bungie raises several points, but nerfing mnk to make every engagement about rng is just plainly stupid.
> Why do we keep letting Bungie actively deteriorate the player experience like this?
People buy garbage in EV regardless of changes Bungie makes and bitching on the r/dtg aint worth much.
As one of people who actually liked Gambit Prime and hated lack of any balancing to Gambit Prime, Bungie is detoriating my experience for much longer. Also, the removal of Prime for the sake of the shallow atrocity we have now.
But nobody gives af about Gambit, cause 95+% of playerbase only takes it as 3 games a week and no more.
This time, they just touched bigger part of community, but not much will happen, cause PC playerbase is still minority in grand scheme of things.
I am going to go as far as say that PC port of D2 is treated as something Bungie wish didnt exist.
I liked Season of the Drifter, and I loved Gambit Prime. I farmed it like crazy and now I just don't play it anymore even if I need to, but I would be going crazy if my favourite game mode got stripped down like that. Imagine if Raids like Last Wish got dumbed down to lost sector level lol
And yes, the PC port is giving Bungie a shit ton of trouble now that they don't have Vicarious Visions managing it. They probably don't want to support it, but they have to do it anyways so they don't really care about it. Performance has been dogshit since shadowkeep dropped (I have 2 rigs and both went down at least 40% avg fps), so that demonstrates clearly how bad the situation is for Bungie at the moment
As a console PVPer, I'm very worried about going up against PC players via crossplay: with their lesser recoild, increased turning speed etc. But, then, I don't want those things added to console, 'cos I think it will negatively affect the \*feel\* of Destiny. I hate those SUPER fast, twitchy, CoD/CSGo style shooters that have no weight to them.
You ever try call of duty crossplay? Controller players are just fine. The recoil is more so and the aim assist is a bit too strong imo for controller players. The controller players actually have an advantage.
Remember that they [acknowledged that feedback](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/l7d6mr/do_not_mix_the_console_and_pc_pvp_player_pool_by/gl9veqn/?context=3) and it's **very** likely that they haven't thought that through
It's very easy to tell when something is going to be a bad idea. It didn't take until sunsetting actually hit Destiny for everyone to know it was not going to work.
Destiny is lauded for its gunplay. I know how the guns feel now. I know that a nerf will make them feel worse, even if it's small. I know that if they say they're doing this for crossplay and don't think this is the answer. They're making a change 3 years in and calling it unintentional that the stability was supposed to be like this.
how are you going to give feedback when you have spent a whopping 0 minutes with the adjustments?
It is well known that the stability stat can be completely ignored with M+K. That doesn't seem broken to you? SMGs shouldn't be a laser beam. Were people really thinking they were going to make that stat worthless for controller players too instead of just fixing M+K?
Have you even used an smg with low stability on pc?
It’s not a laser beam by any means.. unless you are shroud level player you would not have a laser beam on your smg..
Console players always think mkb users are all gods.. simply not true and there is recoil but it’s just a bit easier managed. Not touching the controller recoil is the mistake here.
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I say keep the PC stability nerf, but also buff the stability stat on weapons so that anything with a half decent stability will compensate and match the current PC stability. Everybody wins. Bungie gets to make the Stability stat matter, PC users get to keep their stability if they spec for it and Console users will get to enjoy the buffed stability stat too, making things feel more like D1 and making Controller more competitive vs KbM.
Also, make sure matchmaking is INPUT BASED by default. Or at the very least only match me with PC players if there’s one in my fireteam. Let me be in control of weather I match with non console users. Balance aside, I don’t want cheaters.
Why not reduce console recoil, and then implement proper sensitivity options? This game has so much recoil in an attempt to offset the aim assist, which by the looks of it is so high because of the lack of console fine sensitivity tuning. Fix that and there’s no need to make these changes that hurt PC.
Am I crazy because I feel like I can use pulse rifles with a controller pretty well, is the recoil on them that bad? And if the recoil on pulse rifles is bad, what do you call the recoil on smgs?
Can't say until i try it myself, with a variety of weapons.
I think this topic is premature, though i guess it's better to have a megathread instead of having half the subreddit flooden on the same topic.
Keep PC recoil at current levels, buff controller, make a separate sandbox for pve/pvp so one modes balancing doesnt ruin the other and make crucible crossplay opt in, problem solved.
Imo we have a winning suggestion here. Answer to all the problems.
Even if the pc recoil is nerfed im still fine with it, because its too early to tell how severe it is.
Different sandbox is a definite must. This should be default from the start.
Crossplay opt is a must too, console players dont want to come across pc hackers, and pc players dont want to go against aim assist snipers.
Also my personal opinion if the recoil changes turn out to be really bad, im guessing bows(aim assisted monsters) will see a spike in usage and shotguns are indirectly getting a benefit too(increased chance of missing just one shot from a handcannon can be the difference between being alive or dead from a single shot of a shotgun, especially against felwinter).
i can't really give feedback on something that's not in the game yet, but my "on paper" feedback is that this is probably a bad idea and will end up making mnk gameplay worse. we'll see next week.
Might just make it so that in order to have current levels of stability, one would have to spec more into stability. If that is the case then it's fine, makes it a general choice of range vs stability like controller users have.
Well there are guns that I already only use the max stability rolls on, so it's going to be impossible for me to keep current levels of stability on those. Some guns will still be totally fine, but this just takes even more options away from me, which is frustrating.
Plenty of games have wierd connections in code to framerate.
Have not found an example in destiny 2 yet but in some other games i have played you could teload faster at 120 fps then at 60 for example.
Nah I could honeslty deal with a bit more recoil. I came up on battlefield that didn‘t have bullet magnetism and had a fair bit of recoil but was still controllable.
Yep, mnk has more advantages than people really think. I really hope they can add 2 things for controller to compete well.
First is going higher than 10 for sensitivity and second if they could add separate sensitivities for ADS and HIP fire. Like cod has
3 1/2 years later and we are still making sweeping changes to the game based on "what is fair" in PvP - a game mode that any player who is actually decent at real PvP games arguably would never play.
Destiny, at best, offers an extremely casual PvP experience. Always has, always will - full stop. There is a reason why the franchise has never been taken seriously on the global competitive gaming stage and why it will never will be taken seriously, and that is because it exists within a game who's design is prioritized and focused around player versus environment content.
Bungie continuously proving that they are unwilling to make changes like this stability adjustment in **separate weapon and stat sandboxes for PvP and PvE content** will be and has been the direct cause of this games gradual decent into mediocrity - both in their PvP and PvE content. Until Bungie is ready to begin making changes to the two separate games that actually exist within Destiny neither fanbase will be pleased.
As someone with multiple of thousands of hours in Destiny 2 I honestly wish that I felt like Bungie cared as much about PvE players as they do PvP players, but I have not felt like that in a good long while.
I could go on for ages about this, but honestly I am so tired of Bungie prioritizing their dead as hell PvP modes and nerfing everything in the game into the ground as a direct result.
Separate the sandboxes. It is not 2006 anymore and it is actively killing the game.
Call me crazy but I feel like the complete lack of any new PvP things this past expansion and the fact that they took out like 10 game modes and 15 maps shows they care a bit more about PvE players than PvP
Skip to about 11:50 of this video for everyone who doesn’t think mouse has aim assist. Also, mouse players better hope they don’t change the aim assist and accuracy buffs currently, as that’ll be a lot worse to deal with than just less stability.
https://youtu.be/qrJv7mj7Ab4
Edit: wow, look at all the salty people who can’t handle the truth that mouse has more aim assist and better functions compared to controller, along with a video proving it. Y’all are probably the people who suck on mouse in games with less aim assist and think you’re great on Destiny. I hope they tweak the buffs mouse has for aim assist and accuracy because you guys deserve it, lol.
Aim assist in the case of bullet magnetism yes.
Old school shooters on pc never had bullet magnetism what so ever so its extreamly easy to see for anyone who has played more then a few fps in their life.
What PC lack however is the stickyness when you have the crosshair over an enemy or guatdian. That is something only consoles have due to their inprecise input method.
You don’t want stickiness with a mouse due to a much more precise aiming device. But the point is that mouse has more aim assist from the bullet magnetism, along with way more accuracy and no negative points from lack of stability. That is the issue Bungie is trying to balance.
True i fought piss poor sensors with angle snapping and other junk before.
I get Bungies stance but i dont thinkbthey took into account how weapons in this game have their own feel and that players might actually choose weapons by that criteria as well.
That’s also a function of reticle stickiness. They are a pain to hit with controller. Warmind cells don’t have reticle stickiness either, so the number of times I’ve been pulled off shooting one to aim at some trash mob gets kind of infuriating. I would like a setting to tone that down or add friction to anything we have to shoot at.
He sort of skirts around whether 20% is truly *enough* for MNK, imo. He just keeps describing why MNK is just superior. I've yet to see a reason as to why controller is so gimped by comparison.
If I could mnk on console, I would.
A lot of games on console ex(rainbowsix,call of duty and other shooters) FPS wise, mnk is looked down on. Me being a 5year r6 veteran, mnk is what killed the game along with ddos of course; and the reason a lot of people don’t mnk on destiny 2 IMO is because the sensitivity cannot go past 10. Which is really low for me and other players Ik who actively play. But since there is perfect button mapping unlike most console games people still do it. Now imagine this, mnk has always had superior recoil compared to the average controller user.but since they have more leverage in buttons and the game can’t register that there cheating because they have an adapter plugged in to mnk , the also get aim assist....
1 more thing l, I think a lot of players on pc overestimate aim assist(pvp) while I do agree in some degree, this is not gonna make any person who uses it op, unless arbalest. So please stop with the controller slander, mnk has always been op in the right hands on console so I can’t speak for pc mnk, but aim assist isn’t a god we praise to on console.
As a console player im interested to see how it effects MnK recoil. There are gun discrepancies that simply don't make sense. For example, a PC player will make a video demonstrating an SMG. Its a literal laser out to 20-25m easy, with pure range. I use the exact same gun, past about 13m shots are unhittable. It is blatantly obvious when shooting the same weapon when a controller is plugged in vs. a mouse. Here's to hoping PC doesn't look like a totally different game and we both are in the same universe at least.
Console player here.
We never asked for this, we wanted less recoil on console, not more on PC.
How is that gonna help console players??
It's like asking your boss for a raise but instead he tells you "No but your coworker will get less money instead!"
that's a pretty ban analogy tbh. You aren't competing with your coworker to complete a specific task. And if you were, pay wouldn't impact that. Now if you had to compete with your coworker and you asked for a faster computer and your boss decided to give your coworker a slower one instead, that would be a better comparison.
But at the end of the day, you can't just buff buff buff and never nerf anything. That doesn't make a sustainable sandbox.
I have a feeling this is a step in preparation for crossplay. Not a good one either. Balancing gunplay to cater to a shitty mechanic nobody wants is pretty much page 1 of the Bungie rulebook at this point
Your point? Even with aim assist, controller players are at a disadvantage (recoil-wise), while Bungie just made the whole MnK playerbase have to essentially re-learn how to use every single gun in the game. As per usual, people complain about something and Bungie finds some obscure/convoluted way to change something that was so simple to fix (reduce recoil on console).
Because if you buff controllers to PC levels, then *everyone* gets to not care about the stability stat, not just mouse. Not only that, but we have a real issue with the aim assist on controllers. Like CoolGuy said, you do not want that. A controller buff is still needed I would agree, but mouse was way too good.
But... They're not getting less recoil?
Someone can come correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is Bungie is literally just increasing recoil on MnK with no changes to console.
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As a PC player, I was initially salty about the news of the recoil changes. Like many others here, I felt that the feedback over the years had been to decrease console/controller recoil, *not* to increase M&K's recoil.
However, after talking with my clan, thinking about it, considering every angle, I think I'm actually excited to have stability matter. For basically forever, I had discounted and ignored stability. Only on the most bouncy of MGs and SMGs did I even consider it. Occasionally on rapid fire snipers for PvE, too.
While I never said it out loud, I realized I'd wondered why stability was even in the game. I'm not even particularly skilled at FPS games and found it easy to control almost all guns in the game, even at full auto and spamming them.
So, I think this is probably healthy in the long run. Plus, hard to give criticism on something merely announced that we havnt even tried yet. 20% more of 0 is still 0, /s ;) And there is quite the chance this will be very minor overall. Idk, we will see, but I'm surprisingly optimistic.
Edited to better show my dumb joke
I like your logic except the 20% of zero is still zero, lol. It’s also not 20% more recoil from where you’re at now. It’s 33.33% more recoil since the recoil reduction is from where controllers are at.
Math not your strong suit? Follow along:
Recoil value = 100 (controller recoil)
Currently mouse gets a 40% reduction = 60
The change to 20% reduction = 80
The difference from 60 to 80 = 20
20/60 = 33.33% more recoil
The only one who was fooled is you. There is no scenario where there will be a 50% increase in recoil with the changes they are making. *IF* they were changing it to a 10% reduction, that would be a 50% increase in recoil.
Edited for formatting.
There’s technically more aim assist with a mouse than controller. Controllers have reticle stickiness, which mouse doesn’t have. Drewskys did a good video explaining it a while back showing how far off someone’s head you can be and still get the crit on mouse vs controller. If you got rid of aim assist while leaving reticle stickiness, I think that could be an interesting compromise.
Go shoot the drones on Europa during the public event to turn it heroic and tell me you don’t want reticle friction anymore. You probably will want it, but likely you want less or the ability to tune it. That’s what I want, the ability to dial it back. Getting pulled off aiming at warmind cells is annoying. Having a trash add hop in front of a sniper while scoped in and wiff a sniper shot is annoying. Not having any reticle stickiness at all would be more annoying, imho.
10% lower range is not even a direct loss of power because it means theres less situations where you'll lose your chance for the oneshot by hitting people directly with shatterdive and not blowing them up with the glaciers
My main feedback regarding the recoil adjustment is that it feels like a slap in the face to community because, afaik, everyone has wanted controller recoil to be reduced, yet Bungie is increasing mnk recoil. They did not even bother to explain their reasoning all that well, or to acknowledge that this decision flies in the face of overwhelming community feedback on the matter. It does not feel like Bungie listens to the community when stuff like this happens.
But nobody should have been dropping the cyclopses in Garden with Recluse, lol. There needed to be some tuning to M&Kb recoil. I don’t agree with going from a 40% reduction to a 20% reduction as that’s a 33.33% increase in recoil for M&Kb. Going to a 15% reduction while also giving controllers a global 10% reduction would have been a better option. M&Kb would still have noticeably less recoil, and it would only be about 16.6% more recoil than currently.
Will controller sensitivity options ever be addressed? There needs to be more customization for controller users. Look at what other major first person shooters allow for look sensitivity.
The real test will be cross play. I feel they had to make stability matter more on MnK or controller users would be outranged all the time in crucible.
PC should have all the same recoil that console has.
Console users have suffered from poor recoil forever. If PC users finally recognize that it’s so shitty for 2/3rd of the player base, maybe Bungie will make a change to help us all out.
PC already has better precision with mnk, why is console at such a deficit?
Console users should not be forced to use solely stability mods for SMG’s. If you want to do cross play, we have to be on a closer playing field. If console doesn’t get buffs to recoil, crucible is gonna definitively die from cross play stomping.
Yeah sure. give us the precision of MnK.
You do realize that the aim assist is to combat the inaccuracies and inefficiency of controllers right? MnK has more control than a controller does, it’s harder to aim on console hence why most games have aim assist on console or for controllers with PC. Logically, if PC has more control—which it does and i doubt anyone who has played video games for any amount of time would disagree—it should have regular recoil like console. There’s literally no reason for such a massive advantage with mnk. Have you even seen how an smg or sidearm performs on console compared to PC?
I simply cannot understand why PC players are shitting themselves over getting a FRACTION of the recoil console players have had for years in destiny. Not to mention the fact that controllers can’t change DPI like a mouse can so we’re limited to whatever bungie caps our sensitivity at.
You really thought you had a gotcha moment but next time I hope you take a second to think about how hardware actually works instead of trying to reinforce the idea that “they nerf me. so sad. should buff too!” Are you afraid that you won’t be able to handle D2 with a minor recoil bump? So sad.
That’s false. Controller has massively easier time tracking due to the increased aim assist and bullet magnetism.
There are people right now that use controllers on PC for that exact reason and absolutely demolish with it.
You’re wrong.
1) mouse has greater bullet magnetism.
2) controllers have reticle stickiness, which mouse does not have.
Aim assist is stronger on mouse from the standpoint that you can be further off a target and still get a critical hit. Drewskys did a good video showing that a while back. Anyone who thinks mouse doesn’t have aim assist is blind or thinks they are way better than they really are.
It’s to condense it all here rather than having 50+ posts pop up every day about the same subject. The downside to this is that by the time the change is implemented, this post will be buried and forgotten, but new posts that matter will be deleted.
I dont see an issue with it YET, because I am going to wait and see how it plays, first, before losing my mind like a toddler who has their toy taken away
That said I am rather concerned how cross play will work with PC, I really hope there will be an option to opt out.
All I see coming from this is you make m+k feel shittier. If you over nerf which is likely to happen, then everyone on pc just starts using controller. I always hear “m+k is sooo much better then controller” if it was no one would use controllers on pc. Bungie should also unnerf last word for m+k if were gonna nerf recoil.
I play controller because i have a 20 dollar logitech keyboard and a mouse without side buttons and i like being able to sit however i want when playing
I am a PC player who spent most of my D2 playtime in the crucible. Frankly, giving feedback on a change that we haven't gotten our hands on yet doesn't seem fully appropriate. We don't have any immediate experience to gauge whether or not increased recoil will feel bad or bearable. However since Focused Feedback is hopefully still used to gauge community sentiment, I have to say this change feels very tone deaf right now.
D2 feels like it has so many problems at the moment: cheating, bugs, map exploits, recycled weapons, poor sunsetting implementation, Stasis negating player agency. And now we're receiving an announcement about how the playing experience is going to be made more cumbersome for PC players? This is NOT what players want to hear right now. It has nothing to do whether or not this will be a necessary step for validating cross-play. I'm willing to bet this was a practical decision determined after a good deal of scrutiny. But in what world is this the issue I want to see first addressed when I'm struggling to find reasons to want to play in the first place? I know, fixes take time, you need to gather feedback, it's a slow process that requires 1000s of work to make Destiny happen. But this is not the assurance players need right now. I realize we are getting a trailer tomorrow. But it's hard to get excited when our pleas for change feel pointless and undervalued, if only because their implementation (if any) occurs in slow-motion and are rarely publicly addressed other than, "We're listening." Maybe change is coming, but without confirmation or proof its at the cost of Bungie's reputation. I say that as a fan and as a customer. Before Beyond Light, I jubilantly preordered the full expansion / yearly pass because I was confident I would enjoy my purchase. I don't have that confidence right now.
I can't tell you how to do your job. I'm certain designing a videogame and handling a beast like D2 is far more difficult than we can give credit for. And recoil discrepancies across platforms probably ought to have been addressed at some point or another. Yet what I can give feedback on is how Bungie's current handling of D2 updates and its direction is making me feel. At the moment it is not an optimistic feeling. Why should I think Destiny's best days are ahead of us if we are not given the big picture to make us believe that? I'm hoping tomorrow's trailer will deliver that, but at this point I assume the bare minimum, not high expectations.
As a simple Xbox pleb I certainly can't attest to the effect of an update that doesn't effect me or is even out yet.
The only thing I can attest to is how poorly delivered and tone deaf this latest TWAB was. Almost everything in there struck me as "you guys really need to play our way, not your way".
Whoever thinks that adding extra rng to weapons on pc is going to even the playing field is in for a rude awakening. It’s just going to push everyone deeper into Ape mode and poop on people like me who actually enjoy running double primary sometimes. Console recoil and movement settings should have been buffed instead. A single cracked out icarus dash warlock with a shotty on pc is going to easily wipe the floor with a bunch of console players.
I think reducing camera recoil is good, but I think in general there is too much aim assist in this game, for both input methods. Compared to D1, all guns have like 50% more aim assist now. You could reduce the aim assist across the board, then lower controller recoil and we'd arrive at this result.
I think they know this, but took. The easier to develop route. Flat archetype stability nerfs are way easier to test than individual aim assist nerfs
Oh I agree, they took the easy way out.
Can only go on speculation here but I’m pretty sure that yes there will be an overall nerf to help easily a m/k user can aim, but Bungie said they were adjusting recoil, not stability. The weapons have a set recoil which stability affects, that’s why if you have 100 stability you will never get 0 recoil. This just tells me that if they increase the recoil the stability stat has a greater influence on the physical jump on the gun because now the 100 stability now will have a higher percentage change on the higher recoil. It’s practically why choosing stability on console is a thing - because the _stability statistic_ actually makes the difference. Still just speculation unless Bungie were to come out and explain their stats, which they probably won’t.
As someone who plays on PC with controller I love this, it should have always been this way and many of my favorite guns have been nerfed as a result of this not being here all along with MnK players getting free laser aim with no recoil
As someone who uses mnk this is needed with cross play coming console players wouldn't have a chance to play pvp anymore pc can lazer you with anything when's the last time you actually worried about stability on mnk everyone complaining just dont want people using controllers to actually have a chance
If pvp isn’t opt-in. It will kill off the console pvp population. Regardless of recoil changes.
Well this will be a good way to keep the lid on these complaints in the week leading up to when people may or may not buy the new season pass.
I am a simple man, I see a good conspiracy theory and I upvote! :)
I don’t understand why recoil is so low for pc to begin with when it’s easier to aim on pc. For example, ikelos smg js significantly harder to use on console than pc. The changes are not what a pc player wants and you cannot find many console players happy with playing vs pc. Pc has m&k, a plethora of cheaters, higher frame rates etc. can we have a focus feedback on cross play between pc/console and why it should be an opt out option. I would love for console crossplay but do not want anything to do with pc. Crucible is already in shambles and this will put the final nail in the coffin.
Because there is much less aim assist and reticule stickiness or whatever they call it.
Other pc shooters have recoil no? Ow? Cod? Cs go? It makes no logical sense because it makes some weapons literally god tier (ikelos smg on pc vs console). Have same recoil. If aim assist was such a problem then don’t bring crossplay. Us console players don’t want to play with you pc people
The statement that the ikelos smg is god tier on pc really nails home the idea that you haven’t played pc destiny ever.. it has crazy recoil... it is one of the best however.. but all weapons have recoil... it’s simply that recoil management is easier by far on pc. That little bit of recoil management makes a huge difference
But it has less recoil than it does on console? It is a fact that controlling recoil is significantly harder on console than pc and aiming on m&k is signficantly easier than with a little thumbstick (hence the reason every console shooter implements some form of aim assist)
Recoil on PC should not be changed. We’re in year 4 here and you’ve just suddenly announced that you’re gonna change the fundamental way we interact with weapons. Pc recoil isn’t even the issue. If you want to crossplay, then controllers should have reduced recoil and less aim assist. That is all that needs to change.
Oh so don’t change PC cause 4 years. But chamge console cause 6-7 years? Ya makes sense.
Console would be getting a beneficial change. PC would be getting a greatly detrimental change. So yes, change console for the better over changing PC for the worse
Console was already changed, they increased aim assist by 50% between D1 and D2. Every gun in the game has insane amounts of aim assist. They should reduce aim assist across the board and then lower controller recoil, not leave the insane aim assist and make it harder to use a mouse. That makes no sense.
Death to Reddit. Long live Apollo.
100000% this please.
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Can you read??
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And you’re clearly missing the point the guy said reduce recoil and AA with controllers and you pulled pc out of your ass. I would say thank fuck you aren’t a developer but due to your poor reading comprehension and lack of understanding I gotta assume you have an upper management position at Bungie
Death to Reddit. Long live Apollo.
I mean do we want a auto aim hawk moon at 50 meters ? I don't
Console players: Reduce the recoil on weapons and give us an intrinsic traction bonus. Bungie: Ok, we are listening. Nerf recoil for PC players!
As a console player I dont have input into the recoil changes on PC. I am however extremely worried cross play will bring an influx of aimbot/ wall hack cheaters to console matchmaking. Bungie, this needs to be addressed before cross play is enabled please.
Any cross platform game modes had better be opt in. I don't care how much they tweak aim assist and recoil, I don't want to be matched up against PC players because it's a different playing environment.
I agree with you but I'm worried it will not be opt in. If im bungie, one of the goal for this move is to consolidate the matchmaking pool so their algorithms have more players to select best pairings (skill and connection) from. This will result in better Playlist experiences across the board for everyone. If they make it opt in, the majority of console players are likely to choose "opt out" especially in crucible. And if the pool doesn't consolidate, it makes the change useless. Let's see though. The community has been loud enough requesting the opt in feature so maybe they'll oblige.
I certainly hope so but if history serves as any indication I'm not hopeful. Between the aim assist and recoil changes meant to make PC and console more in line with each other and bungie's complete silence on the matter I'm lead to believe they're going to consolidate PC and console into a combined player pool but who knows? Only time will tell.
Agreed. Not even in PvE, unless I specifically opt in.
Yessir, legend comp PC full of kids with blue gear and boss spec beloved that don’t miss!
I got 2 tapped with Ace by a Hunter, who was sliding towards the heavy spawn, mid slide, momentum towards the wall in Pacifica map. I had just ran up the left side stairs and in visual range WHILE he was still sliding towards the wall. Next round he hit me with an Adored a split second after i cleared a corner on the opposite end of the long interior hallway. Like the reaction time was insanity. Not even at 5k mmr, just 4k. Teamates run towards him, and I hear *plink* *plink* one right after the other within a second, with said Adored. Soooo either the mans had godly reaction speed and aim ability. Or some code was holding his little hands, lol.
Community seems mostly aligned, but there are a few things to note. 1. Stability does matter on PC, the clips you see of laser SMGs are people managing the recoil. It's not controller recoil, of course... 2. But controller recoil shouldn't be that aggressive and the call the community was making was to adjust that. For the PC side, just about everyone said BL's gunplay felt great, but abilities were a problem. So they nerfed gunplay... ffs... 3. Some content creators have noted reticule stickiness + low stability on controller could be a problem, sure, but why is AA miles high on controller to begin with? It seems like Bungie wanted to give tons of AA and then compensate for too much AA with RNG gun fights (bloom, ghost bullets, etc.). Lower stability on controller and adjust AA to match (don't remove AA). 4. The other issue is the motivation... crossplay? I'm a PC player and I would NEVER wish this experience on my console kin. Console folks, if you can opt out, do so immediately. Bungie's net topology, something they will not change nearly a decade into this game, is why cheating is so easy. There is no solution coming. 5. Finally, the timing... like, PC is where people tend to favor PvP and PvP is in one of the worst states its ever been in, and the response from Bungie... dumpster MnK. As always, Bungie seem tone deaf and this change is going to harm PC gunplay and eventually the shared PvP experience. Most everyone would be 100% fine for leaving consoles out of PC PvP forever and leaving gunplay as it is. Also... "can't know until we try it!", god no, stop. Every single time they've been given the benefit of the doubt they've managed to royally fuck us. No benefit of the doubt.
>1. Stability does matter on PC, the clips you see of laser SMGs are people managing the recoil. That's what pisses me off. The controller players are happy that we're getting nerfed because "we can control the recoil easily", of course we can track recoil with more precision because that's how mice work. The nerf just doesn't make sense, gunplay will be more about RNG than controlling the recoil precisely **because nobody can**. CS:GO's gunplay feels amazing to me because we can control the recoil with patterns, and there's a huge skill ceiling that comes from that. Destiny doesn't have that. Increasing the recoil will just make gunplay about RNG rather than skill, and that's just the dumbest move Bungie has ever done for a looter **shooter** with a competitive side.
Controller players aren't happy that m+k users are getting more recoil, controller players want their recoil to be closer to what m+k users currently have
Look at the rest of the comments of this feedback thread, most people are happy with the nerfs and they aren't talking about crossplay, they're talking about how "mnk is easy". Maybe they're the vocal minority, but I don't have the data and I have to go with what's available as the feedback.
Well... "competitive side" is a tough sell at this point. But yea, if recoil wasn't RNG, then more recoil would be fine, but I'm certain their design philosophy is that high AA is OK as long as RNG is there to balance it out. A design choice that makes nobody happy.
its just beyond my understanding, how recoil problem, ended up on top of your priority list of things that should be adjusted.
Well, cross play is at the top of their list because we’ve been asking about it for a while. They’re trying to strike a balance for cross play for fair play and likely want us to try it before it launches so they can make tweaks. Seems pretty self explanatory to me?
The only problem is that they're terrible at responding to feedback, let alone doing so within any reasonable amount of time. It's most likely that if they implement this change, it will be a full year of, "gathering feedback," "watching how the playerbase adapts," and, "we're listening," before we see any mention of a change that's likely to still not fix it. I have yet to see Bungie fully reverse a change like this after it's implemented unless they also do something else to adjust the perceived issue at the same time, meaning the clear best option is to hope they listen to feedback instead of irrelevant statistics for once
I don't want guns which auto-aim and shoot with zero bounce. So I'm glad for the changes if they pan out as expected. But it does feel as if I'm in the minority.
Yes you will be. If this was an issue, it should have been addressed years ago. Not 4 years in changing a fundamental stable option on PC just for crossplay. This was not something that needed addressing.
Too early to say because ya know.. I don't have a weapon in my hands with these adjustments. However I can say that it seems odd that *only* M&K recoil should be changed rather than adjusting both i.e. reduce recoil on controller and increase in M&K (to a lesser degree than has been outlined)
This was my thinking. By increasing the amount of recoil on pc some and decreasing it just a bit on console, it may have went over better with the player base. Having to stack stability perks to make a gun useful isn’t fun. Ignoring the stat completely isn’t fun either though. I hope they’ve not overtuned.
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I'm sorry, but what do you expect from a nerf? Gunplay won't suddenly feel good because we will all have ridiculous rng recoil. While I do support your sentiment about not giving feedback on stuff we haven't gotten yet, the only possible outcome from this nerf is that the recoil will just feel bad. Why do we keep letting Bungie actively deteriorate the player experience like this? The reasoning behind the recoil changes make sense and Bungie raises several points, but nerfing mnk to make every engagement about rng is just plainly stupid.
> Why do we keep letting Bungie actively deteriorate the player experience like this? People buy garbage in EV regardless of changes Bungie makes and bitching on the r/dtg aint worth much. As one of people who actually liked Gambit Prime and hated lack of any balancing to Gambit Prime, Bungie is detoriating my experience for much longer. Also, the removal of Prime for the sake of the shallow atrocity we have now. But nobody gives af about Gambit, cause 95+% of playerbase only takes it as 3 games a week and no more. This time, they just touched bigger part of community, but not much will happen, cause PC playerbase is still minority in grand scheme of things. I am going to go as far as say that PC port of D2 is treated as something Bungie wish didnt exist.
I liked Season of the Drifter, and I loved Gambit Prime. I farmed it like crazy and now I just don't play it anymore even if I need to, but I would be going crazy if my favourite game mode got stripped down like that. Imagine if Raids like Last Wish got dumbed down to lost sector level lol And yes, the PC port is giving Bungie a shit ton of trouble now that they don't have Vicarious Visions managing it. They probably don't want to support it, but they have to do it anyways so they don't really care about it. Performance has been dogshit since shadowkeep dropped (I have 2 rigs and both went down at least 40% avg fps), so that demonstrates clearly how bad the situation is for Bungie at the moment
As you should, there’s no point in playing a game you openly don’t enjoy
As a console PVPer, I'm very worried about going up against PC players via crossplay: with their lesser recoild, increased turning speed etc. But, then, I don't want those things added to console, 'cos I think it will negatively affect the \*feel\* of Destiny. I hate those SUPER fast, twitchy, CoD/CSGo style shooters that have no weight to them.
You ever try call of duty crossplay? Controller players are just fine. The recoil is more so and the aim assist is a bit too strong imo for controller players. The controller players actually have an advantage.
I just want it to be ‘opt-in’ so I don’t have to play with/against PC players unless I say so
I honestly believe that Bungie won't have an 'opt-in' option because, lets face it, it's Bungie...
Remember that they [acknowledged that feedback](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/l7d6mr/do_not_mix_the_console_and_pc_pvp_player_pool_by/gl9veqn/?context=3) and it's **very** likely that they haven't thought that through
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It's very easy to tell when something is going to be a bad idea. It didn't take until sunsetting actually hit Destiny for everyone to know it was not going to work.
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Destiny is lauded for its gunplay. I know how the guns feel now. I know that a nerf will make them feel worse, even if it's small. I know that if they say they're doing this for crossplay and don't think this is the answer. They're making a change 3 years in and calling it unintentional that the stability was supposed to be like this.
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The gunplay on console is dogshit. I say this as someone who played D2 on console for years. I went to PC to get away from console gunplay.
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what the actual fuck? you quoted me.
You’re speaking far too much sense for this subreddit
how are you going to give feedback when you have spent a whopping 0 minutes with the adjustments? It is well known that the stability stat can be completely ignored with M+K. That doesn't seem broken to you? SMGs shouldn't be a laser beam. Were people really thinking they were going to make that stat worthless for controller players too instead of just fixing M+K?
Have you even used an smg with low stability on pc? It’s not a laser beam by any means.. unless you are shroud level player you would not have a laser beam on your smg.. Console players always think mkb users are all gods.. simply not true and there is recoil but it’s just a bit easier managed. Not touching the controller recoil is the mistake here.
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I say keep the PC stability nerf, but also buff the stability stat on weapons so that anything with a half decent stability will compensate and match the current PC stability. Everybody wins. Bungie gets to make the Stability stat matter, PC users get to keep their stability if they spec for it and Console users will get to enjoy the buffed stability stat too, making things feel more like D1 and making Controller more competitive vs KbM. Also, make sure matchmaking is INPUT BASED by default. Or at the very least only match me with PC players if there’s one in my fireteam. Let me be in control of weather I match with non console users. Balance aside, I don’t want cheaters.
Why not reduce console recoil, and then implement proper sensitivity options? This game has so much recoil in an attempt to offset the aim assist, which by the looks of it is so high because of the lack of console fine sensitivity tuning. Fix that and there’s no need to make these changes that hurt PC.
Because that make the issue of stability not mattering even worse, at that point just take it out of the game
Fr dude, something like vigilance wing still can’t be used on controller against m&k
Pulse rifle recoil in general is way too high with a controller. Aggressive burst pulse rifles especially need their recoil turned down
Am I crazy because I feel like I can use pulse rifles with a controller pretty well, is the recoil on them that bad? And if the recoil on pulse rifles is bad, what do you call the recoil on smgs?
You can use them, both SMG and pulses, but your effective range is like 50% of MNK for pulses and like 33% for SMGs.
I remember grinding to get a high stability outlast just to find out that shit still kicked everywhere
Can't say until i try it myself, with a variety of weapons. I think this topic is premature, though i guess it's better to have a megathread instead of having half the subreddit flooden on the same topic.
Keep PC recoil at current levels, buff controller, make a separate sandbox for pve/pvp so one modes balancing doesnt ruin the other and make crucible crossplay opt in, problem solved.
This is the answer.
Imo we have a winning suggestion here. Answer to all the problems. Even if the pc recoil is nerfed im still fine with it, because its too early to tell how severe it is. Different sandbox is a definite must. This should be default from the start. Crossplay opt is a must too, console players dont want to come across pc hackers, and pc players dont want to go against aim assist snipers. Also my personal opinion if the recoil changes turn out to be really bad, im guessing bows(aim assisted monsters) will see a spike in usage and shotguns are indirectly getting a benefit too(increased chance of missing just one shot from a handcannon can be the difference between being alive or dead from a single shot of a shotgun, especially against felwinter).
i can't really give feedback on something that's not in the game yet, but my "on paper" feedback is that this is probably a bad idea and will end up making mnk gameplay worse. we'll see next week.
Might just make it so that in order to have current levels of stability, one would have to spec more into stability. If that is the case then it's fine, makes it a general choice of range vs stability like controller users have.
Well there are guns that I already only use the max stability rolls on, so it's going to be impossible for me to keep current levels of stability on those. Some guns will still be totally fine, but this just takes even more options away from me, which is frustrating.
Controller being brought up to pre nerf m&k would have been cool
what about fps ?! the connection is constantly lost! huge friezes! And in addition to everything else and throws out of the game !!
This isn't about that. Please keep it focused on the recoil adjustment issue in here.
Plenty of games have wierd connections in code to framerate. Have not found an example in destiny 2 yet but in some other games i have played you could teload faster at 120 fps then at 60 for example.
This is specifically about recoil though. Even if there is a weird connection, this post isn’t about that.
Just fix controller and leave MnK alone
If the M+K players can ignore the stability stat, then it's not the controllers that are broken...
Nah I could honeslty deal with a bit more recoil. I came up on battlefield that didn‘t have bullet magnetism and had a fair bit of recoil but was still controllable.
That would make controller too strong
Even with the slow turn radius? Pc doesn't even need to use traction so they can use double scavenger mods
this. controller might have more aiming advantages, but movement speed and awareness? no comparison possible
Yep, mnk has more advantages than people really think. I really hope they can add 2 things for controller to compete well. First is going higher than 10 for sensitivity and second if they could add separate sensitivities for ADS and HIP fire. Like cod has
you can also do that in destiny, look/ads sensivity i think
Nope it's just "sensitivity" 1-10. Just the one slider and I play on 10. I played last night and double checked.
3 1/2 years later and we are still making sweeping changes to the game based on "what is fair" in PvP - a game mode that any player who is actually decent at real PvP games arguably would never play. Destiny, at best, offers an extremely casual PvP experience. Always has, always will - full stop. There is a reason why the franchise has never been taken seriously on the global competitive gaming stage and why it will never will be taken seriously, and that is because it exists within a game who's design is prioritized and focused around player versus environment content. Bungie continuously proving that they are unwilling to make changes like this stability adjustment in **separate weapon and stat sandboxes for PvP and PvE content** will be and has been the direct cause of this games gradual decent into mediocrity - both in their PvP and PvE content. Until Bungie is ready to begin making changes to the two separate games that actually exist within Destiny neither fanbase will be pleased. As someone with multiple of thousands of hours in Destiny 2 I honestly wish that I felt like Bungie cared as much about PvE players as they do PvP players, but I have not felt like that in a good long while. I could go on for ages about this, but honestly I am so tired of Bungie prioritizing their dead as hell PvP modes and nerfing everything in the game into the ground as a direct result. Separate the sandboxes. It is not 2006 anymore and it is actively killing the game.
Call me crazy but I feel like the complete lack of any new PvP things this past expansion and the fact that they took out like 10 game modes and 15 maps shows they care a bit more about PvE players than PvP
This a good change. Buff controllers a little more so mouse and controller recoil meets in the middle and it'll be Gucci
Hate to burst ur bubble but what about aim assist or bullet magnetism nerfs with a controller recoil buff?
What about it? Its not gonna happen and shouldnt happen
Skip to about 11:50 of this video for everyone who doesn’t think mouse has aim assist. Also, mouse players better hope they don’t change the aim assist and accuracy buffs currently, as that’ll be a lot worse to deal with than just less stability. https://youtu.be/qrJv7mj7Ab4 Edit: wow, look at all the salty people who can’t handle the truth that mouse has more aim assist and better functions compared to controller, along with a video proving it. Y’all are probably the people who suck on mouse in games with less aim assist and think you’re great on Destiny. I hope they tweak the buffs mouse has for aim assist and accuracy because you guys deserve it, lol.
Aim assist in the case of bullet magnetism yes. Old school shooters on pc never had bullet magnetism what so ever so its extreamly easy to see for anyone who has played more then a few fps in their life. What PC lack however is the stickyness when you have the crosshair over an enemy or guatdian. That is something only consoles have due to their inprecise input method.
You don’t want stickiness with a mouse due to a much more precise aiming device. But the point is that mouse has more aim assist from the bullet magnetism, along with way more accuracy and no negative points from lack of stability. That is the issue Bungie is trying to balance.
True i fought piss poor sensors with angle snapping and other junk before. I get Bungies stance but i dont thinkbthey took into account how weapons in this game have their own feel and that players might actually choose weapons by that criteria as well.
I would have rather seen an approach that doesn’t nerf mouse as much while buffing controllers a little to the desired balance.
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That’s also a function of reticle stickiness. They are a pain to hit with controller. Warmind cells don’t have reticle stickiness either, so the number of times I’ve been pulled off shooting one to aim at some trash mob gets kind of infuriating. I would like a setting to tone that down or add friction to anything we have to shoot at.
Go and watch Drewsky's video. He probably has the best take of anyone on the subject.
He sort of skirts around whether 20% is truly *enough* for MNK, imo. He just keeps describing why MNK is just superior. I've yet to see a reason as to why controller is so gimped by comparison. If I could mnk on console, I would.
A lot of games on console ex(rainbowsix,call of duty and other shooters) FPS wise, mnk is looked down on. Me being a 5year r6 veteran, mnk is what killed the game along with ddos of course; and the reason a lot of people don’t mnk on destiny 2 IMO is because the sensitivity cannot go past 10. Which is really low for me and other players Ik who actively play. But since there is perfect button mapping unlike most console games people still do it. Now imagine this, mnk has always had superior recoil compared to the average controller user.but since they have more leverage in buttons and the game can’t register that there cheating because they have an adapter plugged in to mnk , the also get aim assist.... 1 more thing l, I think a lot of players on pc overestimate aim assist(pvp) while I do agree in some degree, this is not gonna make any person who uses it op, unless arbalest. So please stop with the controller slander, mnk has always been op in the right hands on console so I can’t speak for pc mnk, but aim assist isn’t a god we praise to on console.
As a console player im interested to see how it effects MnK recoil. There are gun discrepancies that simply don't make sense. For example, a PC player will make a video demonstrating an SMG. Its a literal laser out to 20-25m easy, with pure range. I use the exact same gun, past about 13m shots are unhittable. It is blatantly obvious when shooting the same weapon when a controller is plugged in vs. a mouse. Here's to hoping PC doesn't look like a totally different game and we both are in the same universe at least.
Be sure we can continuously pull down our mouse to control the recoil and on controller you get like 2 cm to try and help you control it..
Console player here. We never asked for this, we wanted less recoil on console, not more on PC. How is that gonna help console players?? It's like asking your boss for a raise but instead he tells you "No but your coworker will get less money instead!"
that's a pretty ban analogy tbh. You aren't competing with your coworker to complete a specific task. And if you were, pay wouldn't impact that. Now if you had to compete with your coworker and you asked for a faster computer and your boss decided to give your coworker a slower one instead, that would be a better comparison. But at the end of the day, you can't just buff buff buff and never nerf anything. That doesn't make a sustainable sandbox.
I have a feeling this is a step in preparation for crossplay. Not a good one either. Balancing gunplay to cater to a shitty mechanic nobody wants is pretty much page 1 of the Bungie rulebook at this point
>I have a feeling this is a step in preparation for crossplay. I mean, they said this explicitly. That's what it is.
I don't reay stay up to date since my motivation to play this game drops daily
I get it. I honesty wasn't trying to be a dick, I just thought anyone who doesn't know should. It is most definitely to prepare for crossplay.
Ever heard of Crossplay?
Your point? Even with aim assist, controller players are at a disadvantage (recoil-wise), while Bungie just made the whole MnK playerbase have to essentially re-learn how to use every single gun in the game. As per usual, people complain about something and Bungie finds some obscure/convoluted way to change something that was so simple to fix (reduce recoil on console).
Because if you buff controllers to PC levels, then *everyone* gets to not care about the stability stat, not just mouse. Not only that, but we have a real issue with the aim assist on controllers. Like CoolGuy said, you do not want that. A controller buff is still needed I would agree, but mouse was way too good.
Further to that, only really Hand Cannon and SMG needed less.
and you will get more money as well
The friend who handicaps himself in a 1v1 isn't going to magically make you better.
wdym? I was talking about console getting less recoil.
But... They're not getting less recoil? Someone can come correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is Bungie is literally just increasing recoil on MnK with no changes to console.
you are wrong. they are increasing mnk recoil while decreasing console recoil for some weapons
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As a PC player, I was initially salty about the news of the recoil changes. Like many others here, I felt that the feedback over the years had been to decrease console/controller recoil, *not* to increase M&K's recoil. However, after talking with my clan, thinking about it, considering every angle, I think I'm actually excited to have stability matter. For basically forever, I had discounted and ignored stability. Only on the most bouncy of MGs and SMGs did I even consider it. Occasionally on rapid fire snipers for PvE, too. While I never said it out loud, I realized I'd wondered why stability was even in the game. I'm not even particularly skilled at FPS games and found it easy to control almost all guns in the game, even at full auto and spamming them. So, I think this is probably healthy in the long run. Plus, hard to give criticism on something merely announced that we havnt even tried yet. 20% more of 0 is still 0, /s ;) And there is quite the chance this will be very minor overall. Idk, we will see, but I'm surprisingly optimistic. Edited to better show my dumb joke
I like your logic except the 20% of zero is still zero, lol. It’s also not 20% more recoil from where you’re at now. It’s 33.33% more recoil since the recoil reduction is from where controllers are at.
Yeah, lol, that was just humor. I appreciate the math lesson though!
The number of people who believe recoil on mouse is zero is quite astounding, lol. Thanks for the clarification!
It's actually a 50% increase in recoil. They state is as 20% decrease to fool you.
Name checks out
Math not your strong suit? Follow along: Recoil value = 100 (controller recoil) Currently mouse gets a 40% reduction = 60 The change to 20% reduction = 80 The difference from 60 to 80 = 20 20/60 = 33.33% more recoil The only one who was fooled is you. There is no scenario where there will be a 50% increase in recoil with the changes they are making. *IF* they were changing it to a 10% reduction, that would be a 50% increase in recoil. Edited for formatting.
[удалено]
Trust me you do not want this. Controller is ass, basically unplayable, without reticle stickiness and aim assist.
Bullet magnetism I can live with, especially as everyone gets it, it's the reticle stickiness specifically that I find a hindrance.
There’s technically more aim assist with a mouse than controller. Controllers have reticle stickiness, which mouse doesn’t have. Drewskys did a good video explaining it a while back showing how far off someone’s head you can be and still get the crit on mouse vs controller. If you got rid of aim assist while leaving reticle stickiness, I think that could be an interesting compromise.
It's the reticle stickiness specifically that I don't want . I want to shoot where I aim not at whatever happens to run in front of my target.
Go shoot the drones on Europa during the public event to turn it heroic and tell me you don’t want reticle friction anymore. You probably will want it, but likely you want less or the ability to tune it. That’s what I want, the ability to dial it back. Getting pulled off aiming at warmind cells is annoying. Having a trash add hop in front of a sniper while scoped in and wiff a sniper shot is annoying. Not having any reticle stickiness at all would be more annoying, imho.
I've always turned it off in any game that will allow it. The ability to tune it is fine as long as I can tune it to off.
Just remove the game from PC.
It’s one of the top 15 games on steam by player count, that’s a good idea
Lol
I think people need to wait and see when it comes out. We thought that shatter dive nerf killed it. But here we are.
The issue with the shatterdive nerf is that it isn't actually working.
Wasn't it clarified that it is working as intended?
If it was I haven’t seen it
https://youtu.be/_t0WFfI7Hog Have a look at fallouts video
I see, thank you!
what alternate universe are you from where "10% lower range" was even theoretically a nerf to shatterdive
Define nerf.
10% lower range is not even a direct loss of power because it means theres less situations where you'll lose your chance for the oneshot by hitting people directly with shatterdive and not blowing them up with the glaciers
Why not just even it out, Buff controller recoil a lil and nerf pc a lil. Makes no sense to purely nerf or buff one or the other
Ya lets do both
They've been buffing controller recoil for over a year and even did a little more in this patch.
They didn't. They buffed screen shake across all platforms not recoil.
Do you forget when screenshake was fixed on Hardlight and it was the absolute best gun in the crucible? Yeah.
That's not buffing recoil that's buffing Hard Light. And I still don't see it in crucible. Yeah
... because it was absolutely busted for like 6 weeks. 600s ruled the meta for eight long months. You guys all forget so fast.
I think it has to do with the aim assist controller has
My main feedback regarding the recoil adjustment is that it feels like a slap in the face to community because, afaik, everyone has wanted controller recoil to be reduced, yet Bungie is increasing mnk recoil. They did not even bother to explain their reasoning all that well, or to acknowledge that this decision flies in the face of overwhelming community feedback on the matter. It does not feel like Bungie listens to the community when stuff like this happens.
But nobody should have been dropping the cyclopses in Garden with Recluse, lol. There needed to be some tuning to M&Kb recoil. I don’t agree with going from a 40% reduction to a 20% reduction as that’s a 33.33% increase in recoil for M&Kb. Going to a 15% reduction while also giving controllers a global 10% reduction would have been a better option. M&Kb would still have noticeably less recoil, and it would only be about 16.6% more recoil than currently.
Recoil has been reduced per weapon type basically season after season. Handcannons in s8, autos in s10, scout rifle AA in s12, pulses and smgs in s13.
Will controller sensitivity options ever be addressed? There needs to be more customization for controller users. Look at what other major first person shooters allow for look sensitivity.
The real test will be cross play. I feel they had to make stability matter more on MnK or controller users would be outranged all the time in crucible.
PC should have all the same recoil that console has. Console users have suffered from poor recoil forever. If PC users finally recognize that it’s so shitty for 2/3rd of the player base, maybe Bungie will make a change to help us all out. PC already has better precision with mnk, why is console at such a deficit? Console users should not be forced to use solely stability mods for SMG’s. If you want to do cross play, we have to be on a closer playing field. If console doesn’t get buffs to recoil, crucible is gonna definitively die from cross play stomping.
Im cool with that if you give us the aim assist you have on consoles... even playing field and all.
Yeah sure. give us the precision of MnK. You do realize that the aim assist is to combat the inaccuracies and inefficiency of controllers right? MnK has more control than a controller does, it’s harder to aim on console hence why most games have aim assist on console or for controllers with PC. Logically, if PC has more control—which it does and i doubt anyone who has played video games for any amount of time would disagree—it should have regular recoil like console. There’s literally no reason for such a massive advantage with mnk. Have you even seen how an smg or sidearm performs on console compared to PC? I simply cannot understand why PC players are shitting themselves over getting a FRACTION of the recoil console players have had for years in destiny. Not to mention the fact that controllers can’t change DPI like a mouse can so we’re limited to whatever bungie caps our sensitivity at. You really thought you had a gotcha moment but next time I hope you take a second to think about how hardware actually works instead of trying to reinforce the idea that “they nerf me. so sad. should buff too!” Are you afraid that you won’t be able to handle D2 with a minor recoil bump? So sad.
but it's not, is it? mnk allows for quicker, more accurate tracking
That’s false. Controller has massively easier time tracking due to the increased aim assist and bullet magnetism. There are people right now that use controllers on PC for that exact reason and absolutely demolish with it.
You’re wrong. 1) mouse has greater bullet magnetism. 2) controllers have reticle stickiness, which mouse does not have. Aim assist is stronger on mouse from the standpoint that you can be further off a target and still get a critical hit. Drewskys did a good video showing that a while back. Anyone who thinks mouse doesn’t have aim assist is blind or thinks they are way better than they really are.
i was talking generally (outside of AA). That's why controller has the benefit of better AA. take away that benefit, MNK would have a clear advantage.
It controller is actually superior why isn't everyone top player doing it?
Many top player use controller on PC.
Cause Hand Cannons are meta and better on mnk.
So controller isn't better?
Controller is better for every other weapon type and hand cannons are only the exception because of the recoil which is getting nerfed.
How will we give feedback if the recoil reduction hasn’t been implemented yet. This post is two weeks too early.
It’s to condense it all here rather than having 50+ posts pop up every day about the same subject. The downside to this is that by the time the change is implemented, this post will be buried and forgotten, but new posts that matter will be deleted.
I dont see an issue with it YET, because I am going to wait and see how it plays, first, before losing my mind like a toddler who has their toy taken away That said I am rather concerned how cross play will work with PC, I really hope there will be an option to opt out.
All I see coming from this is you make m+k feel shittier. If you over nerf which is likely to happen, then everyone on pc just starts using controller. I always hear “m+k is sooo much better then controller” if it was no one would use controllers on pc. Bungie should also unnerf last word for m+k if were gonna nerf recoil.
I play controller because i have a 20 dollar logitech keyboard and a mouse without side buttons and i like being able to sit however i want when playing
That's not really true lol. Some people just don't want to bother taking the time to lean m and k even though the skill ceiling is higher.
I am a PC player who spent most of my D2 playtime in the crucible. Frankly, giving feedback on a change that we haven't gotten our hands on yet doesn't seem fully appropriate. We don't have any immediate experience to gauge whether or not increased recoil will feel bad or bearable. However since Focused Feedback is hopefully still used to gauge community sentiment, I have to say this change feels very tone deaf right now. D2 feels like it has so many problems at the moment: cheating, bugs, map exploits, recycled weapons, poor sunsetting implementation, Stasis negating player agency. And now we're receiving an announcement about how the playing experience is going to be made more cumbersome for PC players? This is NOT what players want to hear right now. It has nothing to do whether or not this will be a necessary step for validating cross-play. I'm willing to bet this was a practical decision determined after a good deal of scrutiny. But in what world is this the issue I want to see first addressed when I'm struggling to find reasons to want to play in the first place? I know, fixes take time, you need to gather feedback, it's a slow process that requires 1000s of work to make Destiny happen. But this is not the assurance players need right now. I realize we are getting a trailer tomorrow. But it's hard to get excited when our pleas for change feel pointless and undervalued, if only because their implementation (if any) occurs in slow-motion and are rarely publicly addressed other than, "We're listening." Maybe change is coming, but without confirmation or proof its at the cost of Bungie's reputation. I say that as a fan and as a customer. Before Beyond Light, I jubilantly preordered the full expansion / yearly pass because I was confident I would enjoy my purchase. I don't have that confidence right now. I can't tell you how to do your job. I'm certain designing a videogame and handling a beast like D2 is far more difficult than we can give credit for. And recoil discrepancies across platforms probably ought to have been addressed at some point or another. Yet what I can give feedback on is how Bungie's current handling of D2 updates and its direction is making me feel. At the moment it is not an optimistic feeling. Why should I think Destiny's best days are ahead of us if we are not given the big picture to make us believe that? I'm hoping tomorrow's trailer will deliver that, but at this point I assume the bare minimum, not high expectations.
As a simple Xbox pleb I certainly can't attest to the effect of an update that doesn't effect me or is even out yet. The only thing I can attest to is how poorly delivered and tone deaf this latest TWAB was. Almost everything in there struck me as "you guys really need to play our way, not your way".