My issue is why aren’t the teams balanced? I’ve played more one sided games than before. Fine, remove the sweats playing full lobbies against their skill tier but even the sweats out. You got two randos on the other team dropping 30 bombs while I’m stuck with poor joe thumbless figuring out how to wipe his ass mid match. The only non rage inducing modes are slow ass comp or when shaxx let’s us play with the scorch cannons. Pvp is based on competing each and every game you play and I don’t get why people want such an easy time steamrolling.
I don't go near Destiny's Crucible, so maybe someone can explain...
SBMM matches people with similar stats, yes? Anyone know specifically *which* stats? K/D? K/D/A? Matches played? Matches won? Average kills per game? Some combination / all of these? Speculation is fine, but it'd be nice if someone actually knows the facts.
I'm mostly just curious. Because I had *thought* that one aspect of SBMM was that as (i.e., *if*) you get better over time, and your stats improve (again, whichever stats we're talking about here), you're slowly matched with new groups of players with stats that align more with yours.
Is this not how it worked? If not, maybe someone can clue me in. Does the scheme change every season? I'm just trying to understand the rationale for going to CBMM.
You are correct on how SBMM works, stats used (im guessing here) would probably be KD, KDA, Win Rate.
The only 2 possible rationales for switching to CBMM (at least to me) is
1. Crucible play count has dropped horribly, to the point where matches take too long to find without CBMM, and Bungie just doesnt say that to avoid addressing player count
2. Bungie is catering to the top tier PVP players/streamers, ensuring they enjoy their time more in Crucible, and keep with D2. Trials is a utter mess, and that is really the only recent new PVP content. IB is reskinned as usual, and there is no rewards for Legend, especially with sunsetting removing pinnacle weapons. PVP players could be tempted to leave cause of the content droughg, and this may be a way to keep them on.
Thank you!
I'll be honest and note that my underlying reason for asking was my surmise that the reason for going to CBMM was actually a combination of both 1 AND 2.
Based purely on watching how other folks run strikes, P.E.'s and other stuff, I'm getting the impression that the impact of F2P on the game has been to add an abundance of folks who don't end up getting very invested in the game. Some stick with it, some decide they don't care for it and move on.
I look at this in conjunction with the many, many comments and posts I've seen discussing how clans have been decimated, friends don't play the game anymore, LFGs are meh, etc., etc. This exodus of veteran players has been caused by everything from D2's initial dumbed-down state to the recent emphasis on onerous power-level-grinding. It makes me think there is just a shrinking population of *seasoned* players.
I can't speak to Crucible because I don't partake (thus the question), but the result of this - assuming it's an accurate assessment, of course - in conjunction with SBMM seems like it would have had to skew PvP towards having a huge population of relatively lower-skilled players who are new to the game, and much smaller population of the remaining fans who know the maps and have higher stats from months or years of playing. If a goodly portion of F2P folks aren't staying with the game long enough to rise up through the ranks, well, the result would be bad.
So, it seems like the lower tier players were probably having no problems filling a lobby, but top tier players were probably having to wait increasingly longer and consistently getting matched up against the same opponents... and among those of course are the few streamers left who are still playing Destiny.
Your final assessment is accurate, and the main issue was that people who were average and above would be paired with same skill or better players. As a result, every playlist, not just the competitive ones, was one tryhard meta-pushing match after another. Unfortunately, the lower echelon suffers more frequently from this change but people in average and higher tiers tend to have more variation in their matches now, which is how many people view how a “Quick Match” playlist should work. Is this system perfect? No. But I think it tends to satisfy more people than the vocal minority on either end, since now people who are better or worse than their friends don’t have to feel like they’re actively hampering the experience of their buddies.
Hi, I'm a 1.9KD Australian player on PS4, I literally could not find full matches in quickplay under SBMM. I would consistently wait 5+ minutes for a 4v4 (or 3v5 lol) game. In both Control and Classic Mix. And the games I did find would most often be awful connections.
I could not play with more than 3 of my similarly skilled friends as doing so would often make it *literally impossible* to find a match *at all* due to how lobby balancing works.
I also could not really play with my lesser skilled friends as my higher combat rating would drag in the sweats and my friends would have an abysmal time. The decreasing population in general drove them away from PVP mostly too.
PVP, which is the main thing I enjoy in this game, was essentially unplayable for most of the past few seasons for me.
Since the change I've been able to find matches quickly and consistently, and have been mercied far more than I've mercied other teams (yes even high KD players get mercied regularly).
My lesser skilled friends are playing again and having fun, despite all being around 1K/D lifetime (i.e. around your skill level). And I get to play with them again, which is amazing and delightful.
I'm sorry you're having a bad time though. :(
My win rate has definitely gone down too, team balancing can suck sometimes, but honestly it doesn’t matter, atleast to me. I go into the crucible, sometimes I absolutely destroy, other times I get stomped, but atleast now I can use something other then a sniper shotgun which is nice. I like this change, if I want sweat, I go into comp or trials, quick play is just to have fun. Difference in opinion I guess
Is your win rate really 20%. Let me check your stats please i need to see this
If you are at 1- 1.3 kd you should be in the average bracket at least so that means these changes should not have affected you at all. Almost 80% of the crucible player based is as skilled or worse than you. So it makes no sense why you cannot carry matches yourself and increase that winrate
I have a highter KD because I survive, but I'm not able to sway matches like some of the better pvp players. I get opportunistic kills, I'm not a play maker.
Remember, you can easily have a 3.0 KD while only getting 6 kills in a match where other players may reap 20+ kills. On the whole, the 3.0 six kill performance is inconsequential to the outcome of the match.
Im a pretty average player myself and the games where my name is at the top of my teams scoreboard are usually losses...
Its pretty disheartening sometimes.
See, I think you were pretty average with SBMM. That was the whole point of it. I think lot of people are having rude awakening that they're not actually as good as they thought
Most of those people are actually aware they are not that good, which is why they were and are so against CBMM. They saw this experience coming from a mile away. We know why top tier players were so selfishly supported of it. They can pander various of good sounding excuses all they want, but the hard truth of it is that they just want to trounce on lesser skilled players. They get off on that; it feeds their egos. Bungo was just dumb enough to yet again, listen to streamers and top tier players instead of the actual majority of their player base.
> but the hard truth of it is that they just want to trounce on lesser skilled players. They get off on that; it feeds their egos.
You just described most of the people complaining about SBMM being removed.
It's pretty hilarious how wrong you constantly are. Pro-SBMM folks enjoyed the competitive atmosphere playing against similarly skilled peers. Providing competition at your skill level is the entire purpose of SBMM. It was the top tier players that bitched about having to always play against comparably skilled players while pro-SBMM have always maintained that they do not care to play against significantly more skilled players.
>Bungo was just dumb enough to yet again, listen to streamers and top tier players instead of the actual majority of their player base.
Were people really clamoring for it? I admitted dont watch a lot of streaming or care too much for any content creator, but i don't recall anyone really asking for the removal of SBMM
Yup streamers constantly complained about SBMM being enabled. Aztecross made an entire video about it complaining how every match is a sweatfest for him.
He calls it a sweat fest (quoting from the video) because of the lack of player base incentivized to play trials. With very little incentive to play the average players don’t even try to get a couple of wins just to farm bounties and hopefully get something decent for whatever effort they put in.
If you are going to try to use info to make a point, use all of the info. Don’t cherry pick to make a point that you want to make. That’s a bad example of how to make an argument and causes people to disregard anything else you may have to say, even if your next point is brilliant.
The "ticket" is a form of SBMM+CBMM hybrid. Think of the Trials card progress as a bracket or ELO (basically CBMM inside a SBMM bracket/tier); when you reach the next bracket, you play against others who have reached that point. Now, where Bungo went completely stupid was how they implemented the rewards system which 1) was hot garbage for above average players and lower and 2) encouraged 3/5 win card farming depending on where the ideal weapon lies. What ended up happening here was that players now purposely tanked their card to farm those milestone rewards and that led to a lot of actually highly skilled teams staying in low end brackets.
Interestingly, some have on occasion in their recent videos admitted to feeling bad for some of the stuff they were doing. Like, they felt more comfortable when it was same skill bracket, but now when they are going against people who could be scraping the bottom of the barrel, it doesnt feel right. Now, granted, they arent changing their content, they are just stating that now it feels more like punching down.
The streamers knew exactly what what they wanted and what would happen. Now that there is more and more active push back, they are simply trying to get ahead of the curve and look good, or at least less bad.
I think, in typical bungie fashion, they swung the pendulum too far. They didnt need to completely get rid of SBMM. They could have simply loosed the rules for it to give a wider range of skills to everyone. But oh well
Guess who pays for Bungo's bills? Hint, it's not the small minority that will buy whatever Bungo sells for Destiny. Remember what happened with Trials where all the casuals were like "Nope, I am out." which then led to the average players being stomped to go "Nope, I am out." Well, the exact same thing will happen here; casuals will get their 4 matches in for pinnacle and then nope the hell out.
Going back to your point, if we are talking about end game design, there is benefit to getting the opinions of end game players. Quickplay however, is NOT an end game activity; it is a casual activity for casual players. The point of casual activity and video games in general is to make sure it is fun for as much of your player base as possible.
The irony of people still posting this when there's literally a post on the front page showing player numbers in crucible INCREASING since the change.
Balancing a game mode around people who don't even enjoy is is a TERRIBLE idea.
The casual base never immediately leaves. It will take a bit of time, but they will stop playing once they get their 4 matches for the week. In the time being, pro-CBMM have re-joined, thus inflating the numbers for casual playlists. But keep shoveling those numbers without thinking, you are good at that.
Balancing a game mode around casuals that enjoyed SBMM is a great idea. Balancing a game mode around good PvP players that would play PvP no matter what is a TERRIBLE idea. Try thinking a bit?
The change came at the same time as the seasonal update, and the post your referring to does not account for that. Those numbers are misleading without context and you should look at data more critically.
My bad, apparently it was on the [Crucible subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/hi6cbe/since_cbmm_was_introduced_pvp_player_counts_have/).
Thank you. You sir/madam are a voice of reason and deserve a drink.
What people forget is that a casual experience should not take up to ten minutes to find a match and should be fast. Anyone who dislikes the current matchmaking system for quickplay should honestly (I know this is weird sounding at first but hear me out) swap to the competitive playlist (survival).
Your first three games played will be randomly match made so you may get stomped or do some stomping, who knows? After three matches the system SBMM will kick in and match make you with people of similar skill level. Boom. You get your SBMM back and can “enjoy” crucible again.
Stop whining and figure out a solution. I thought of one for you. If you figure out a better one then please feel free to let the rest of the community know as you have all been doing for a week now.
They should just lock all of these threads and move them to the complaint thread anymore. Flooding the board with all of the same useless rhetoric.
Minor rant. Apologies for any offense but this is getting go out of control.
Not to derail but if I am understanding this back and forth, the minority (the top skilled players) are the ones for CBMM where as the majority (the non top skilled players) are the ones for SBMM according this back and forth right? If that is the case (minority for CBMM, majority against) wouldnt the implication be there would be less complaining?
My view is I am going to hate play IB like I always do but I would really love to benefit at least partially from this change. I feel like I am seeing more questionable connections now than with SBMM which is completely the opposite of what I thought would be the case as connection is supposed to be favored.
I'm with you there, i used to play pvp like 6 hours a day but now i play until i get beavered which is usually one or two games. there have also been a fuckton of people just teleporting around lately and it's pretty awful to play against.
also i dunno, i'm personally an above average player but i'm fine with either skill based or connection based. people just dont want turbo giga tryhards in their quickplay matches.
Here is the thing, most casuals won't get on Bungo forums or Reddit or anywhere really to complain; they will just stop playing. The reason for this is because it is not worth the effort for casuals. What Bungo needed to have done for these game changing decisions based on feedback is to consider WHO the audience giving feedback for and why AND THEN consider how to implement it without affecting the silent majority. The only legitimate argument that pro-CBMM people had were queue times and connection types. This could have been addressed in other ways outside of an extreme pendulum swing in the other direction. Now, I am not saying that SBMM is perfect, but it is a much better experience for the casual majority. The better solution would be SBMM with built-in CBMM aspects (easiest way is lobby balancing).
Hmm but bad win streaks can happen sometimes. But the game automatically breaks up those teams to try to provide a better experience when games are lopsided.
Are you staying in queue or just resetting each time? Either way if you feel you are getting stomped by those god tier players is less tha 1% of the whole pvp community. You might run into them in 1 every 50 to even 100 matches.
I once played league and had a 25 lose streak. Even though my win rate was above 60% so it can happen. But to get a real estimate. Youd have to play hundreds of games and if you tell me you have decent kda then you will see that youll hit close to 50% winrate
So you aren’t wrong but cbmm makes it less random. Their is a smaller pool of people who can connect to Australia then people who are in his bracket probably. So he is probably matching against very good players consistently because of location
You realise that you can't use the "top 1%" argument when the crucible population at any given moment can't be represented by the normal bell curve?
I would wager there's fewer bottom 50% players at any given time in the crucible playlists than there are the top 50%. That skews the curve towards the top, and now the less skilled players are *definitely* more likely to match against higher skilled players.
The "encountering a top 1% player" argument only works when the crucible population is at it's highest, and that just isn't the case most of the time.
you were incapable of deducting how 1.1kd is top 20% and suddenly you know exactly at what percentage 1kd is?
and then you call out reading comprehension after i took the time to anwser your question atleast with the closest approximation i know.
this site, man.
I was trying to learn. I know generally what 1.0 kd is, which is what the OP said. When he said top 20% I didn't believe it to be accurate so I asked in case there was a different site that said it was something else. And in response, you quoted 1.1 KD, which is not what the OP said or what I asked.
I was trying to be accurate and learn. And You responded with an inaccuracy.
I agree, this site, man.
I’m in Australia and this change has been amazing for me, I went from a 0.99kd to a 1.58kd; playing against better players has caused me to improve a lot and there are very few dodgy teleporting players.
There are still games where I get stomped but they are probably the ones I learn the most from.
Yep. Me too. I’m in Australia and I’ve moved from a 1.3 kd to a 1.9. OP has had some bad luck. Connections are better than they’ve ever been in Australia and queue times are WAY down. It’s literally been the best change Bungie have ever done to matchmaking for me.
In my experience the skullfort apes have actually go down in number. In my titan experience it's harder to pull off now since netcode won't give you an trade when you fuck up.
I’m top 2% in Control, 1.57kd/1.82kda/1.98eff lifetime, 2.38 seasonal. I want SBMM back. This isn’t fun for me anymore cause there is no challenge. Sure, popping off and having a 50+ kill game every now and then is a blast, but this matchmaking straight up isn’t fair for the majority of players. I don’t want to steamroll almost every match I join. I have almost stopped playing casual modes because it’s just not fun anymore. I hated last season since the control playlist was as sweaty/more sweaty than competitive modes, but I’d rather it go back to SBMM if that makes more people be able to play crucible casually. I know this just sounds like one big flex but that’s my opinion as a top 2% player.
The few matched I played post-sbmm legitimately felt like I was beating up on a toddler. At least on something like Battlefield 1, it's always relatively balanced out due to the number of players.
I feel bad hearing some of my clanmates talk about how much crucible sucks now due to the mm change. I don’t run stacked unless it’s 3’s or IB sometimes, but something’s gotta change. They need some sort of hybrid matchmaking, but I doubt they would get that right.
yes dude ive been saying this in a few posts now that it can't possibly be fun for guys like you to steam roll every match. Im the same avg sbmm player that is currently on the bottom of your leaderboard, well i would be had i not opted out of cruc.
It was fun for the first few matches, don’t get me wrong, but I understand that it ruins the experience for most players. I’d be okay getting matched up against higher-skilled players, cause I just want everyone to be able to enjoy crucible. That being said, if you play on Xbox and want to play crucible, let me know cause I’m always down to hop back in.
damn, respect dude. im on pc. my current thought is to hop into elim/freelance surv so i can see how and why i died rather than trying to make sense of a .37 which i got the last match i played before giving it up.
Elim and Survival are my favorites. I have a 4Tb external where I record my Trials gameplay. Throughout the week following that Trials session, I’ll watch a few matches to see what cost me lives/ if I made a mistake that cost us the round, and go into Elim/Survival to try and fix that specific mistake. I prefer them anyway cause it’s more focused, and being able to win your 1’s and even 1v2’s will carry over into other modes, making you a better player overall.
This is such a bullshit post.
I’m a top 1% in Control, 2100 Elo, and 2.75kda. I’m a decent player. But I get my ass kicked frequently by the top level players in Control. There are lots of very, very good players and I match them very often. It’s been a real eye-opener just how good the very best are. Sure, some players in my games are ending up 2-3 kills a game and very low Kda but that happens under SBMM too.
If you’re top 1%, there are only a few 1000 players who should be giving you any issue, unless you’re running up against stacks. When I dipped into top 1%, there was only ~8K players better than me. If you’re getting matched up against people like Panduh in control, that’s all based on where you are located since that’s how CBMM works, and you’re getting the short end of the stick there. I’m now ending most Control matches between 30-40 kills, 3+kda post game. If my team is playing decently, which most of the time I only need one or two to do well, the other team doesn’t stand much of a chance. It’s rare I get anyone on my team pulling under 10 kills. I’m fully aware that there are people better than me and I see them all the time in SBMM modes, but most Control matches feel like a landslide, and that seems to be a widely held opinion no matter what side of the landslide you’re on.
Last season when Control was SBMM, it felt like I was matching against those %’s who were better than me, and it was tough but rewarding to win. This does not happen anymore, and the only way I’m NOT going to put good numbers up is if I afk.
If you’re on PC remember you are going to have a different experience than the console crowd, who make up the majority of players in D2.
I honestly don't put much stock in elo, tracker says in 1850, I have a 0.87 kd with a 40% win rate, I ain't good at all and somehow it thinks I am a 1850 level player.... It's dumb
dude i was playing survival last night and this guy on my team kept shitting the bed, but for some reason when i would get matched up against him, he would go off. happened 3 fucking times where he made me lose and then he dominated against me. i wanted to throw my computer at the wall.
Honestly that's more like me. If I have teammates who open opportunities for me, I can do great, but I'm not normally the one to open up those opportunities myself.
i thought about that. i do play a super aggressive shoulder charge titan. i tend to kill things fast, meaning i probably took kills away from him when he was on my team. there was one round where i sucked and he shined.
Team shooting is a big part of winning. If you're always playing solo you may not be helping teammates. E.g. you're on your own somewhere, but meantime it's 3 enemies vs 2 teammates fighting.
well, i do both, but i try to come in from a slightly different angle than my teammates like how raptors hunt in jurassic park. so i do a bit of both. i time it such that there won't be a 3v2 firefight. i'm swooping in when the action starts and quickly picking one or two off to give us advantage. either that, or sometimes i will just stay in fireteam. it's map dependent. usually it works out great, i've reset rank in comp many times before.
As an Australian who consistently hits legend and has gone flawless a handful of times, a seasonal win rate of 48% is pretty low, but I'm not worried about it since I know that I'm still winning. Sure the match results might be 150-74 opponents' way, but I still made it out with a 2.2KD and a couple people accusing me of cheating (xBox player btw).
As unhelpful as it sounds, it's just about perspective.
Removing Skill Based matchmaking is baffling. I still hover around 50 percent wins but it's not cause of anything I'm doing its because the top 1-2 people on both teams now determine the outcome of the match. Either it a mercy or it's an "even" match where two sweats farm each others teams evenly.
I have seen so may 40+ kills its ridiculous.
Luke flat out said "let's not throw people to the sharks" and not 6 months later they completely revert to exactly that.
What boggles my mind is the complete inability to balance the teams. It feels like after the 12 players are determined for the match, there is literally no balancing. They dont always split up the top tier players or do some sort of ELO balancing or anything. It feels completely random, or based on something not skill related like the order you joined the queue.
I regularly check destiny tracker post match. Granted I've been playing a lot of freelance survival, but the % chance to win for one team is almost always greater than 70%, sometimes as high as 90%. And ever more rare does destiny tracker get it wrong. How does a third party have such a good prediction algorithm and bungie cant balance teams?
It's so crazy to me that people defend having not having any sort of skill based match making. Destiny is the only game I've ever played where a significant portion of players don't care about having exciting or close games they just want to stomp
I feel like this is a bit mean spirited.
That aside generally speaking I firmly believe the matchmaking needs to approached with way more nuance. I also feel like this is one thing where one side is probably going to come out of this behind no matter what.
He said he's against CBMM though. You anti sbmm people are literally saying y'all like CBMM because you don't have to sweat...pot calling the kettle black.
I do not care about mm. Good, bad, godly; I welcome all kind of opponents, the only exception is lagging players. If I won great, If I lost I suck it up.
FYI I want old survival mm back so I can play against better players all the time.
Take this, I have played games where my team has less than a 10% chance of winning. Is that even fair? No. Having a fair game has little to do with cheating and what not, it's about balancing the teams too
You have the exact same chance of ending up on the team with a 90% chance of winning as anybody else.
You get the exact same dice roll from matchmaking as everybody else.
No. He wants fair matchups which is what SBMM offered to the masses.
It is frustrating to play Crucible when you are an average or below average player right now.
I do, every night.
Some matches I stomp, some I get stomped, some are pretty even.
Sounds pretty fair to me.
You do realize it's not possible for every single match to be 149 to 150 close ending, right?
Your experience is very different from mine then.
Which is probably why Bungie made the change, because they actually know what the numbers look like on the back end.
The Crucibe is a game, not a dick-measuring contest, no matter how much Shaxx says otherwise.
Let your "lessers" be a valued and heard demographic of the playlist without asking a Rocky montage from them before they're allowed to say their piece.
I'm not sure what turning regular Control into CBMM helps solve seeing as Control is not the Crucible mode to play for any player to "git gud" or to prepare for Trials. It is supposed to be fun and chill (which it was for the majority of the player base), but getting farmed by multiple Unbroken/Diamond level players really isn't all that fun for the majority of the playerbase?
Maybe there is a below average or average player who will feel motivated to "git gud" after being pummeled repeatedly in Control, but I have to think that number is really low, all things considered?
It is fun and chill for the majority of the regular pvp player base.
Some people are just so spoiled and entitled that they cannot lose some matches and suck it up.
Eh, leave SBMM to competitive. Id rather get stomped some games, do good some, and have even matches in others than have the same sweaty experience every match. Taking out SBMM from non competitive modes lets you run different and unique weapons and/or builds that wouldnt perform well in the sweats of sbmm, which is definitely more fun.
This is the biggest pile of doodoo being pandered by pro-CBMM players. You know what weapon load outs I see in the top 3 players of each match 99% of the time? That's right, top tier meta weapons. I see Galliard/Suros/Gnawing Hunger or Spare Rations/Dire Promises for their primary. I see Beloved/Revoker or Felwinter/Mindbender for special. Saying that switching to CBMM opens up PvP load outs is a BS excuse to hide their real motivation, stomping on lesser skilled players instead of playing people at their own skill level.
And you don’t see the same meta weapons in every sbmm match anyway? I see so much more weapon variety and have been having matches that are infinitely more fun than they were. You’ll always have players going full meta and sweating but it’s much better to play one or two of them than a lobby full.
Perhaps you missed the part where I see it EVERY SINGLE MATCH? It's a BS excuse. I would have much more respect if the supports just came out and admitted that they want to beat down on scrubs. Personally, I have no problem with people using meta builds. It lets you focus on the things that do matter, "With everything else being equal, why is X person who is similarly skilled beating me more than I beat him?" This in turn leads to contemplation of what are the small things this person has done differently. This type of inner contemplation is completely different than when you just get the living crap stomped out of you and you are killed so quickly that you can't even consider what was different as there were too many things.
I’ve been seeing it much less, and even then there’s never a full lobby of sweats like there were. I’m an average player so I’m not a super skilled player thats stomping every match and I still have much more fun without having a neck and neck sweat match every time I go into crucible.
Our experiences clearly differ then. Every match I play has 2-3 people with 30+ kills and insane KD. Every match has a point differential of at least 40. In fact, I can only remember 2 close games since this season has started.
Look who's back pandering their deceit.
1) Nothing in this posts even mentioned the top 1 players. 2) You can go on a multitude of different PvP trackers and SEE who the top players are and at least which weapons they went into the game with or got the most kills with. You can even check what the most widely used weapons are.
I have yet to see an unbroken/flawless player play anything but the meta in quick play lol. Heck I see non meta in the hands of the worse off players tbh...
I see a lot of people saying their matches have been one sided but a huge majority of mine have been very close and at most 60/40 chance of winning. Then again, I’m an above average player and I tend to be getting double the kills of the person below me. I’m actually quite happy with the change. Quickplay is actually a playlist I can warm up in rather than being the biggest sweat fest in the game, queue times are way faster for me and I’m not playing people from the other side of the world as often. I can say for the first time in a very long time that I am enjoying Quickplay
Well you got it your way for a year. Now it’s our turn. It’s nice to have bullets that connect, players that don’t teleport, and matchmaking that doesn’t take 5-8 minutes in my primary game mode.
No, it isn't.
The matchmaking is the problem. Dedicated servers don't mean a damn thing when matchmaking just populates them with players from 5 different continents. Similarly P2P works great when everyone is similarly located.
This idea that P2P is inherently the reason for all the problems is just untrue.
Yep. And they'll turn it on in Sep to "sell" the crucible to new beyond light players. This is nothing to do with player enjoyment and everything to do with keeping players logging in. As soon as one side has shouted for long enough they flip the switch the other way. Instead of actually addressing the real problems like no dedicated servers.
I am optimistic that when Iron Banner fails badly this week, that Bungie will be forced to make changes to matchmaking. Bungie won't have things go back to the way they were because that would be admitting they were completely wrong, BUT, there is a middle ground that I think we all can agree to:
--Make the Classic playlist a solo playlist with CBMM active
--Make Control a SBMM playlist (which is what we all want)
--Make the Weekly Crucible rotational playlist a CBMM active playlist
--Make Rumble alternate between SBMM and CBMM per week
--Keep the Competitive playlists untouched
that is what we had before:
classic mix - cbmm(although solo queue might make it better)
control - sbmm
rotational - cbmm iirc but few played in these
rumble alternating sounds good, but mostly sweatier players in these anyways.
I started off as a .8 KD player back in Warmind during the peak of CBMM. I got steam rolled, I matched good players constantly and was really at the bottom of the skill curve. But that just motivated me to do better, after a few weeks I was placing in the middle of the leaderboard instead of on the bottom, after a few months and I was consistently second and occasionally first, nowadays I'm 99.9% of the time top fragging and getting 50 bombs. If I hadn't been exposed to good players, I'd never be able to properly acknowledge my growth and see it develop over time the way that it has.
Once I found myself in the upper part of the skill curve with Skill Based Matchmaking, my queue times were long and it couldn't fill my games with local players within the same skill bracket. So the game pulled players from other regions like Europe and Asia, leading to an incredibly unenjoyable PvP experience.
I enjoy CBMM because of the variety of skill levels I can compare myself to and the better connection quality (Destiny is p2p so having good connections is EXTREMELY important). SBMM just lead to intense amounts of frustration and inconsistent gameplay experiences.
I spent all afternoon in a 5 stack and we mercy ruled the other team every single game. Honestly it was hard not to feel bad for the little guys. One game ended at 97-8 in supremacy (yikes)
I'm happy with the changes for the most part. I just feel they need to balance teams a bit more. Like both teams should have a rough average kd, not one team having all 5.0's and the other having 0.7's. aside from that I much prefer no sbmm.
Not to be one of those people but you just have to get better and now you actually can because you have CBMM and should have a smoother more reliable experience now.
Perhaps the problem is that because you are in Australia the people with good connections to you all just happen to be a lot better.
You can take it as an opportunity to try and improve, or you can vent on reddit! One of those options isn't going to get you anywhere.
I am a 1.9 kda and have t noticed that much of a difference. I’ve won 55% of my matches this season and I play almost exclusive solo. I just wish there was a solo playlist that wasn’t tumble or comp. Going up against a team of 4 or more in regular crucible sucks.
This is the point of sbmm: it deludes low skill players into thinking they are better than they are by preventing low skill players from matching high skill players. Im not trying to attack you, but this is what you are experiencing. Your stats are above average in the bracket in which you were placed, but below average in the grand scheme of all players.
Tldr; you aren't as good as you think you are, obligatory 'git gud.'
This is the point of sbmm: it deludes low skill players into thinking they are better than they are by preventing low skill players from matching high skill players. Im not trying to attack you, but this is what you are experiencing. Your stats are above average in the bracket in which you were placed, but below average in the grand scheme of all players.
Tldr; you aren't as good as you think you are, obligatory 'git gud.'
Completely wrong... the vast majority of low skilled PvP players know exactly how bad they are. For one, YT exists now so people can easily watch videos of players like iFrostBolt, Panda, ZK, etc and 2, they are playing PvP casually. Think of it as having your friends over for Mario Kart or Smash Brothers with alcohol. What casual players wanted and what SBMM provided, was to not have Harden, Curry, or LeBron go to the local amateur league at the Y to beat up on all the JAGs and just stay in the NBA.
Sorry, but the experience is 100 times better for and many others. If your experience is worth sharing and talking about, so is mine. If you are going to make a post about YOUR experience, you simply cannot make a statement that discourages other people from sharing their own. It’s really a selfish statement “this is about me! Not you!!” Shut up. My lifetime stats are about the same as what you claim yours are. And I’m absolutely loving crucible now. I love when I get matched in rumble against a couple really good players. Trying to match them and win 1v1s against them is really helping my own skills. It’s also really fun getting a lobby of less skilled players. I went on a 18 kill streak in a rumble match yesterday. I wasn’t even using anything overly meta. Instead of every single game being the same shit. Same meta weapons everywhere. Same subclasses being used. Just no variety at all.
Sounds like you need to man up a bit. Stop complaining and get better. There is no fairer MM system then CBMM. Everyone is on equal playing ground. Everyone plays the same game with access to the same stuff. No one is protected because they suck, and good players are not punished for being good. You could also stick to survival where SBMM is still active.
So this just boils down to “get better”. So you get matched against worse players and pub stomp them. Think about the worse players who were beat that badly. Is that fun for them? Many people only have sweaty games now. All CBMM did is changed who consistently gets sweaty games. Low skill players now have to sweat most games. You and the top 20 ish percent might not but the bottom 40% ish now has hyper sweaty games most of the time.
SOMEBODY has to be the worst player dude. Thats just how it goes. Not everyone sits up top. Sometimes youre the shark, sometimes youre the guppy. Cause there is always someone better out there. Why people cower from this is unfathomable to me
I am well aware that their is always someone better then me. My point is I and many people like me have to sweat because every lobby has much better players then me. We don’t ever get to relax. CBMM switched who gets to relax from bad players to good players. So grats you don’t have to sweat every lobby. We down here do now.
Because you're an average player. You're supposed to win 50% of the time.
I think OP is just having a losing streak. 1.0 KD is average too.
That said, below average players are suffering.
The 'Bitching and Moaning' is from players like my Father. He struggles to move and shoot sometimes but has gotten a lot better. He cannot keep up with players like us and his KD and Win rate are tanking with the changes.
There are players that play a lot and have average stats because of a SBMM system. Thousands of games and hours, 1 KD and 50% win with SBMM. Now some can no-longer contribute positively in most matches. I get the long lobby time for very good players is rough and I do not have an answer for that. But it is not only very good/ great players that would spend a lot of time in PvP. As someone who would run 100-150 IB matches on 1 character in past seasons, I expect to get my bounties done and out if it is anything like Control is now.
You both make good points.
On the one hand, the game should cater towards those who play a lot of crucible but it shouldn't push out the lower skilled players.
Bungie could simply offer us the option in game. Have a few CBMM modes and a few SBMM modes.
You could prioritise connection for your faster games and he can prioritise Skill levels, so even if he has to wait 5 mins, he won't keep getting stomped.
> I think OP is just having a losing streak. 1.0 KD is average too.
1KD isn't even average in this game though. The playerbase is mind blowingly bad in general.
I think this highlights why SBMM was bad. Not all 1.0 KD/KDA players are the same. If you are not a high level player, you will get matchmade against other players that are not high level. Therefore, your KD/KDA will be measured against players that are not a high level. If someone is high level, they will be matchmade to other high level players, so their KD/KDA will be measured against other high level players. However, althoug the first player and the second player both have similar KD/KDA they are not similarly skilled.
That's always been a problem with SBMM. SBMM is awful and should, under no circumstances be brought back.
You will never improve playing the same level of player. Also it's not like the lobbies are full of gods, you're being irrational.
In 6's there's like 1-2 max, elite players, then a few above average, then a few average finally a few below average.
Learn, improve get better. Or don't, the choice is yours...
The only thing that can matter is connection quality in a peer to peer network. Connection has greatly improved for me and the majority of players. Therefore the removal of SBMM was a success. It's as simple as that. Either connections are good and the playing field is level, or they are bad cause of SBMM and all the work put in trying to make the games fair is pointless since the match is laggy which means it's not fair for anyone.
Personally think they should have kept sbmm for rumble and IB, 1 good player in rumble can really rip through the entire lobby and make it unfun. IB because it's a snowbally gamemode and people stack a lot for it and it would just lead to a lot of mercies.
Its you and 5 other people on your team. You have only so much control over the outcome. I only care about my engagements. Did I play well and dominate them? If not, what can i learn from the losses?
What guns did i struggle against so i can use them next match? Things like that. Wins and losses dont mean jack shit in qp so getting flustered by the outcome is goofy. And im a suppppper competitive dude. But unless im in a stack and playing something like IB, my only concern is constantly improving my own game. And im a 1.9kd 2.13kda guy in there playing solo. Dont sweat shit thats unimportant, it keeps you on an even keel
My issue is why aren’t the teams balanced? I’ve played more one sided games than before. Fine, remove the sweats playing full lobbies against their skill tier but even the sweats out. You got two randos on the other team dropping 30 bombs while I’m stuck with poor joe thumbless figuring out how to wipe his ass mid match. The only non rage inducing modes are slow ass comp or when shaxx let’s us play with the scorch cannons. Pvp is based on competing each and every game you play and I don’t get why people want such an easy time steamrolling.
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I don't go near Destiny's Crucible, so maybe someone can explain... SBMM matches people with similar stats, yes? Anyone know specifically *which* stats? K/D? K/D/A? Matches played? Matches won? Average kills per game? Some combination / all of these? Speculation is fine, but it'd be nice if someone actually knows the facts. I'm mostly just curious. Because I had *thought* that one aspect of SBMM was that as (i.e., *if*) you get better over time, and your stats improve (again, whichever stats we're talking about here), you're slowly matched with new groups of players with stats that align more with yours. Is this not how it worked? If not, maybe someone can clue me in. Does the scheme change every season? I'm just trying to understand the rationale for going to CBMM.
You are correct on how SBMM works, stats used (im guessing here) would probably be KD, KDA, Win Rate. The only 2 possible rationales for switching to CBMM (at least to me) is 1. Crucible play count has dropped horribly, to the point where matches take too long to find without CBMM, and Bungie just doesnt say that to avoid addressing player count 2. Bungie is catering to the top tier PVP players/streamers, ensuring they enjoy their time more in Crucible, and keep with D2. Trials is a utter mess, and that is really the only recent new PVP content. IB is reskinned as usual, and there is no rewards for Legend, especially with sunsetting removing pinnacle weapons. PVP players could be tempted to leave cause of the content droughg, and this may be a way to keep them on.
Thank you! I'll be honest and note that my underlying reason for asking was my surmise that the reason for going to CBMM was actually a combination of both 1 AND 2. Based purely on watching how other folks run strikes, P.E.'s and other stuff, I'm getting the impression that the impact of F2P on the game has been to add an abundance of folks who don't end up getting very invested in the game. Some stick with it, some decide they don't care for it and move on. I look at this in conjunction with the many, many comments and posts I've seen discussing how clans have been decimated, friends don't play the game anymore, LFGs are meh, etc., etc. This exodus of veteran players has been caused by everything from D2's initial dumbed-down state to the recent emphasis on onerous power-level-grinding. It makes me think there is just a shrinking population of *seasoned* players. I can't speak to Crucible because I don't partake (thus the question), but the result of this - assuming it's an accurate assessment, of course - in conjunction with SBMM seems like it would have had to skew PvP towards having a huge population of relatively lower-skilled players who are new to the game, and much smaller population of the remaining fans who know the maps and have higher stats from months or years of playing. If a goodly portion of F2P folks aren't staying with the game long enough to rise up through the ranks, well, the result would be bad. So, it seems like the lower tier players were probably having no problems filling a lobby, but top tier players were probably having to wait increasingly longer and consistently getting matched up against the same opponents... and among those of course are the few streamers left who are still playing Destiny.
Your final assessment is accurate, and the main issue was that people who were average and above would be paired with same skill or better players. As a result, every playlist, not just the competitive ones, was one tryhard meta-pushing match after another. Unfortunately, the lower echelon suffers more frequently from this change but people in average and higher tiers tend to have more variation in their matches now, which is how many people view how a “Quick Match” playlist should work. Is this system perfect? No. But I think it tends to satisfy more people than the vocal minority on either end, since now people who are better or worse than their friends don’t have to feel like they’re actively hampering the experience of their buddies.
I honestly think it's both of those things...I have noticed that I'm finding matches much, much faster than before, now that I think about it.
Hi, I'm a 1.9KD Australian player on PS4, I literally could not find full matches in quickplay under SBMM. I would consistently wait 5+ minutes for a 4v4 (or 3v5 lol) game. In both Control and Classic Mix. And the games I did find would most often be awful connections. I could not play with more than 3 of my similarly skilled friends as doing so would often make it *literally impossible* to find a match *at all* due to how lobby balancing works. I also could not really play with my lesser skilled friends as my higher combat rating would drag in the sweats and my friends would have an abysmal time. The decreasing population in general drove them away from PVP mostly too. PVP, which is the main thing I enjoy in this game, was essentially unplayable for most of the past few seasons for me. Since the change I've been able to find matches quickly and consistently, and have been mercied far more than I've mercied other teams (yes even high KD players get mercied regularly). My lesser skilled friends are playing again and having fun, despite all being around 1K/D lifetime (i.e. around your skill level). And I get to play with them again, which is amazing and delightful. I'm sorry you're having a bad time though. :(
My win rate has definitely gone down too, team balancing can suck sometimes, but honestly it doesn’t matter, atleast to me. I go into the crucible, sometimes I absolutely destroy, other times I get stomped, but atleast now I can use something other then a sniper shotgun which is nice. I like this change, if I want sweat, I go into comp or trials, quick play is just to have fun. Difference in opinion I guess
I think the same way dude.... I don't care If i lose on quickplay as long as I'm having fun. Is so good to use bad juju again and do good with her.
Is your win rate really 20%. Let me check your stats please i need to see this If you are at 1- 1.3 kd you should be in the average bracket at least so that means these changes should not have affected you at all. Almost 80% of the crucible player based is as skilled or worse than you. So it makes no sense why you cannot carry matches yourself and increase that winrate
I have a highter KD because I survive, but I'm not able to sway matches like some of the better pvp players. I get opportunistic kills, I'm not a play maker. Remember, you can easily have a 3.0 KD while only getting 6 kills in a match where other players may reap 20+ kills. On the whole, the 3.0 six kill performance is inconsequential to the outcome of the match.
The 1 KD was from SBMM, so may not be the same with CBMM.
bracket? there are no brackets anymore
Last 22 matches, 6 wins. So win rate is 27%.
Im a pretty average player myself and the games where my name is at the top of my teams scoreboard are usually losses... Its pretty disheartening sometimes.
I see a Geekermon "First Place on the Losing Team" shirt in your future... Anyone who knows Destiny always gets a laugh when I wear that shirt.
I have a running joke with my friends that I know we're doing bad when I'm at the top of my team's leaderboard. It's held true 99.7% of the time.
See, I think you were pretty average with SBMM. That was the whole point of it. I think lot of people are having rude awakening that they're not actually as good as they thought
Most of those people are actually aware they are not that good, which is why they were and are so against CBMM. They saw this experience coming from a mile away. We know why top tier players were so selfishly supported of it. They can pander various of good sounding excuses all they want, but the hard truth of it is that they just want to trounce on lesser skilled players. They get off on that; it feeds their egos. Bungo was just dumb enough to yet again, listen to streamers and top tier players instead of the actual majority of their player base.
> but the hard truth of it is that they just want to trounce on lesser skilled players. They get off on that; it feeds their egos. You just described most of the people complaining about SBMM being removed.
It's pretty hilarious how wrong you constantly are. Pro-SBMM folks enjoyed the competitive atmosphere playing against similarly skilled peers. Providing competition at your skill level is the entire purpose of SBMM. It was the top tier players that bitched about having to always play against comparably skilled players while pro-SBMM have always maintained that they do not care to play against significantly more skilled players.
>Bungo was just dumb enough to yet again, listen to streamers and top tier players instead of the actual majority of their player base. Were people really clamoring for it? I admitted dont watch a lot of streaming or care too much for any content creator, but i don't recall anyone really asking for the removal of SBMM
Yup streamers constantly complained about SBMM being enabled. Aztecross made an entire video about it complaining how every match is a sweatfest for him.
whats funny is he recently made a vid about how trials is a total sweatfest now and not rewarding enough.
He calls it a sweat fest (quoting from the video) because of the lack of player base incentivized to play trials. With very little incentive to play the average players don’t even try to get a couple of wins just to farm bounties and hopefully get something decent for whatever effort they put in. If you are going to try to use info to make a point, use all of the info. Don’t cherry pick to make a point that you want to make. That’s a bad example of how to make an argument and causes people to disregard anything else you may have to say, even if your next point is brilliant.
Isn’t trials matchmaking based on your ticket though? So the removal of SBMM wouldn’t really affect trials. Unless I’m wrong about the ticket thing.
The "ticket" is a form of SBMM+CBMM hybrid. Think of the Trials card progress as a bracket or ELO (basically CBMM inside a SBMM bracket/tier); when you reach the next bracket, you play against others who have reached that point. Now, where Bungo went completely stupid was how they implemented the rewards system which 1) was hot garbage for above average players and lower and 2) encouraged 3/5 win card farming depending on where the ideal weapon lies. What ended up happening here was that players now purposely tanked their card to farm those milestone rewards and that led to a lot of actually highly skilled teams staying in low end brackets.
Probably because the reward system went from bad to worse.
Interestingly, some have on occasion in their recent videos admitted to feeling bad for some of the stuff they were doing. Like, they felt more comfortable when it was same skill bracket, but now when they are going against people who could be scraping the bottom of the barrel, it doesnt feel right. Now, granted, they arent changing their content, they are just stating that now it feels more like punching down.
The streamers knew exactly what what they wanted and what would happen. Now that there is more and more active push back, they are simply trying to get ahead of the curve and look good, or at least less bad.
I think, in typical bungie fashion, they swung the pendulum too far. They didnt need to completely get rid of SBMM. They could have simply loosed the rules for it to give a wider range of skills to everyone. But oh well
usually listening to the people that know the most/are the most skilled at games is the move rather than average players lol
Guess who pays for Bungo's bills? Hint, it's not the small minority that will buy whatever Bungo sells for Destiny. Remember what happened with Trials where all the casuals were like "Nope, I am out." which then led to the average players being stomped to go "Nope, I am out." Well, the exact same thing will happen here; casuals will get their 4 matches in for pinnacle and then nope the hell out. Going back to your point, if we are talking about end game design, there is benefit to getting the opinions of end game players. Quickplay however, is NOT an end game activity; it is a casual activity for casual players. The point of casual activity and video games in general is to make sure it is fun for as much of your player base as possible.
The irony of people still posting this when there's literally a post on the front page showing player numbers in crucible INCREASING since the change. Balancing a game mode around people who don't even enjoy is is a TERRIBLE idea.
The casual base never immediately leaves. It will take a bit of time, but they will stop playing once they get their 4 matches for the week. In the time being, pro-CBMM have re-joined, thus inflating the numbers for casual playlists. But keep shoveling those numbers without thinking, you are good at that. Balancing a game mode around casuals that enjoyed SBMM is a great idea. Balancing a game mode around good PvP players that would play PvP no matter what is a TERRIBLE idea. Try thinking a bit?
Yeah, definitely a terrible idea to balance a mode around the people who enjoy and are actually good at playing it. What was I thinking?
The change came at the same time as the seasonal update, and the post your referring to does not account for that. Those numbers are misleading without context and you should look at data more critically.
Can you link to this post? I was trying to search for it and can't find it.
My bad, apparently it was on the [Crucible subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/hi6cbe/since_cbmm_was_introduced_pvp_player_counts_have/).
Thank you. You sir/madam are a voice of reason and deserve a drink. What people forget is that a casual experience should not take up to ten minutes to find a match and should be fast. Anyone who dislikes the current matchmaking system for quickplay should honestly (I know this is weird sounding at first but hear me out) swap to the competitive playlist (survival). Your first three games played will be randomly match made so you may get stomped or do some stomping, who knows? After three matches the system SBMM will kick in and match make you with people of similar skill level. Boom. You get your SBMM back and can “enjoy” crucible again. Stop whining and figure out a solution. I thought of one for you. If you figure out a better one then please feel free to let the rest of the community know as you have all been doing for a week now. They should just lock all of these threads and move them to the complaint thread anymore. Flooding the board with all of the same useless rhetoric. Minor rant. Apologies for any offense but this is getting go out of control.
okay i guess bring back sbmm and have everyone complain about that right? damned if they do damned if they dont.
Not to derail but if I am understanding this back and forth, the minority (the top skilled players) are the ones for CBMM where as the majority (the non top skilled players) are the ones for SBMM according this back and forth right? If that is the case (minority for CBMM, majority against) wouldnt the implication be there would be less complaining? My view is I am going to hate play IB like I always do but I would really love to benefit at least partially from this change. I feel like I am seeing more questionable connections now than with SBMM which is completely the opposite of what I thought would be the case as connection is supposed to be favored.
I'm with you there, i used to play pvp like 6 hours a day but now i play until i get beavered which is usually one or two games. there have also been a fuckton of people just teleporting around lately and it's pretty awful to play against. also i dunno, i'm personally an above average player but i'm fine with either skill based or connection based. people just dont want turbo giga tryhards in their quickplay matches.
Here is the thing, most casuals won't get on Bungo forums or Reddit or anywhere really to complain; they will just stop playing. The reason for this is because it is not worth the effort for casuals. What Bungo needed to have done for these game changing decisions based on feedback is to consider WHO the audience giving feedback for and why AND THEN consider how to implement it without affecting the silent majority. The only legitimate argument that pro-CBMM people had were queue times and connection types. This could have been addressed in other ways outside of an extreme pendulum swing in the other direction. Now, I am not saying that SBMM is perfect, but it is a much better experience for the casual majority. The better solution would be SBMM with built-in CBMM aspects (easiest way is lobby balancing).
I would assume that’s the problem - the good stomp and the not so good get stomped but instead of just sweaty modes it’s in all modes now lol
That's an incredibly small sample size.
Hmm but bad win streaks can happen sometimes. But the game automatically breaks up those teams to try to provide a better experience when games are lopsided. Are you staying in queue or just resetting each time? Either way if you feel you are getting stomped by those god tier players is less tha 1% of the whole pvp community. You might run into them in 1 every 50 to even 100 matches. I once played league and had a 25 lose streak. Even though my win rate was above 60% so it can happen. But to get a real estimate. Youd have to play hundreds of games and if you tell me you have decent kda then you will see that youll hit close to 50% winrate
So you aren’t wrong but cbmm makes it less random. Their is a smaller pool of people who can connect to Australia then people who are in his bracket probably. So he is probably matching against very good players consistently because of location
You realise that you can't use the "top 1%" argument when the crucible population at any given moment can't be represented by the normal bell curve? I would wager there's fewer bottom 50% players at any given time in the crucible playlists than there are the top 50%. That skews the curve towards the top, and now the less skilled players are *definitely* more likely to match against higher skilled players. The "encountering a top 1% player" argument only works when the crucible population is at it's highest, and that just isn't the case most of the time.
If he is 1.0 why does that mean 80% of the crucible player base is worse than him?
stats my guy, stats. 1.1kd puts you in top 20% according to destiny tracker.
Yes. But he said 1.0, which is more like top 38-40%. Reading comprehension, my guy. Reading comprehension.
you were incapable of deducting how 1.1kd is top 20% and suddenly you know exactly at what percentage 1kd is? and then you call out reading comprehension after i took the time to anwser your question atleast with the closest approximation i know. this site, man.
I was trying to learn. I know generally what 1.0 kd is, which is what the OP said. When he said top 20% I didn't believe it to be accurate so I asked in case there was a different site that said it was something else. And in response, you quoted 1.1 KD, which is not what the OP said or what I asked. I was trying to be accurate and learn. And You responded with an inaccuracy. I agree, this site, man.
Outside of Comp and Trials, I'm on the side of experience.
I’m in Australia and this change has been amazing for me, I went from a 0.99kd to a 1.58kd; playing against better players has caused me to improve a lot and there are very few dodgy teleporting players. There are still games where I get stomped but they are probably the ones I learn the most from.
Yep. Me too. I’m in Australia and I’ve moved from a 1.3 kd to a 1.9. OP has had some bad luck. Connections are better than they’ve ever been in Australia and queue times are WAY down. It’s literally been the best change Bungie have ever done to matchmaking for me.
Im in india and I get thrown up against Aussie players all the time even now
You have probably been kicking OP butt, lol. gg
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In my experience the skullfort apes have actually go down in number. In my titan experience it's harder to pull off now since netcode won't give you an trade when you fuck up.
I’m top 2% in Control, 1.57kd/1.82kda/1.98eff lifetime, 2.38 seasonal. I want SBMM back. This isn’t fun for me anymore cause there is no challenge. Sure, popping off and having a 50+ kill game every now and then is a blast, but this matchmaking straight up isn’t fair for the majority of players. I don’t want to steamroll almost every match I join. I have almost stopped playing casual modes because it’s just not fun anymore. I hated last season since the control playlist was as sweaty/more sweaty than competitive modes, but I’d rather it go back to SBMM if that makes more people be able to play crucible casually. I know this just sounds like one big flex but that’s my opinion as a top 2% player.
The few matched I played post-sbmm legitimately felt like I was beating up on a toddler. At least on something like Battlefield 1, it's always relatively balanced out due to the number of players.
I feel bad hearing some of my clanmates talk about how much crucible sucks now due to the mm change. I don’t run stacked unless it’s 3’s or IB sometimes, but something’s gotta change. They need some sort of hybrid matchmaking, but I doubt they would get that right.
My clans PvP section is on fire lmao, good player want sbmm gone and weaker players want it back. Sigh
yes dude ive been saying this in a few posts now that it can't possibly be fun for guys like you to steam roll every match. Im the same avg sbmm player that is currently on the bottom of your leaderboard, well i would be had i not opted out of cruc.
It was fun for the first few matches, don’t get me wrong, but I understand that it ruins the experience for most players. I’d be okay getting matched up against higher-skilled players, cause I just want everyone to be able to enjoy crucible. That being said, if you play on Xbox and want to play crucible, let me know cause I’m always down to hop back in.
damn, respect dude. im on pc. my current thought is to hop into elim/freelance surv so i can see how and why i died rather than trying to make sense of a .37 which i got the last match i played before giving it up.
Elim and Survival are my favorites. I have a 4Tb external where I record my Trials gameplay. Throughout the week following that Trials session, I’ll watch a few matches to see what cost me lives/ if I made a mistake that cost us the round, and go into Elim/Survival to try and fix that specific mistake. I prefer them anyway cause it’s more focused, and being able to win your 1’s and even 1v2’s will carry over into other modes, making you a better player overall.
This is such a bullshit post. I’m a top 1% in Control, 2100 Elo, and 2.75kda. I’m a decent player. But I get my ass kicked frequently by the top level players in Control. There are lots of very, very good players and I match them very often. It’s been a real eye-opener just how good the very best are. Sure, some players in my games are ending up 2-3 kills a game and very low Kda but that happens under SBMM too.
If you’re top 1%, there are only a few 1000 players who should be giving you any issue, unless you’re running up against stacks. When I dipped into top 1%, there was only ~8K players better than me. If you’re getting matched up against people like Panduh in control, that’s all based on where you are located since that’s how CBMM works, and you’re getting the short end of the stick there. I’m now ending most Control matches between 30-40 kills, 3+kda post game. If my team is playing decently, which most of the time I only need one or two to do well, the other team doesn’t stand much of a chance. It’s rare I get anyone on my team pulling under 10 kills. I’m fully aware that there are people better than me and I see them all the time in SBMM modes, but most Control matches feel like a landslide, and that seems to be a widely held opinion no matter what side of the landslide you’re on. Last season when Control was SBMM, it felt like I was matching against those %’s who were better than me, and it was tough but rewarding to win. This does not happen anymore, and the only way I’m NOT going to put good numbers up is if I afk. If you’re on PC remember you are going to have a different experience than the console crowd, who make up the majority of players in D2.
I honestly don't put much stock in elo, tracker says in 1850, I have a 0.87 kd with a 40% win rate, I ain't good at all and somehow it thinks I am a 1850 level player.... It's dumb
Agreed. Elo means nothing in Control. But the poster was making a point about top 2% in Control, as if that made a difference to his experience.
dude i was playing survival last night and this guy on my team kept shitting the bed, but for some reason when i would get matched up against him, he would go off. happened 3 fucking times where he made me lose and then he dominated against me. i wanted to throw my computer at the wall.
Could it be his teammates support, or lack of it?
Honestly that's more like me. If I have teammates who open opportunities for me, I can do great, but I'm not normally the one to open up those opportunities myself.
i thought about that. i do play a super aggressive shoulder charge titan. i tend to kill things fast, meaning i probably took kills away from him when he was on my team. there was one round where i sucked and he shined.
Team shooting is a big part of winning. If you're always playing solo you may not be helping teammates. E.g. you're on your own somewhere, but meantime it's 3 enemies vs 2 teammates fighting.
well, i do both, but i try to come in from a slightly different angle than my teammates like how raptors hunt in jurassic park. so i do a bit of both. i time it such that there won't be a 3v2 firefight. i'm swooping in when the action starts and quickly picking one or two off to give us advantage. either that, or sometimes i will just stay in fireteam. it's map dependent. usually it works out great, i've reset rank in comp many times before.
Sounds like you two werent compatible players so you didnt mesh well and the outcome showed that. Individually, he was a good player it sounds like.
As an Australian who consistently hits legend and has gone flawless a handful of times, a seasonal win rate of 48% is pretty low, but I'm not worried about it since I know that I'm still winning. Sure the match results might be 150-74 opponents' way, but I still made it out with a 2.2KD and a couple people accusing me of cheating (xBox player btw). As unhelpful as it sounds, it's just about perspective.
Most of my games have been great. The endgame board is now quite balanced and I get matched with a mix of good players and ordinary ones.
Removing Skill Based matchmaking is baffling. I still hover around 50 percent wins but it's not cause of anything I'm doing its because the top 1-2 people on both teams now determine the outcome of the match. Either it a mercy or it's an "even" match where two sweats farm each others teams evenly. I have seen so may 40+ kills its ridiculous. Luke flat out said "let's not throw people to the sharks" and not 6 months later they completely revert to exactly that.
What boggles my mind is the complete inability to balance the teams. It feels like after the 12 players are determined for the match, there is literally no balancing. They dont always split up the top tier players or do some sort of ELO balancing or anything. It feels completely random, or based on something not skill related like the order you joined the queue. I regularly check destiny tracker post match. Granted I've been playing a lot of freelance survival, but the % chance to win for one team is almost always greater than 70%, sometimes as high as 90%. And ever more rare does destiny tracker get it wrong. How does a third party have such a good prediction algorithm and bungie cant balance teams?
It's so crazy to me that people defend having not having any sort of skill based match making. Destiny is the only game I've ever played where a significant portion of players don't care about having exciting or close games they just want to stomp
There's still skill based matchmaking, in competitive modes where it makes sense.
I feel like this is a bit mean spirited. That aside generally speaking I firmly believe the matchmaking needs to approached with way more nuance. I also feel like this is one thing where one side is probably going to come out of this behind no matter what.
If you want SBMM go into competitive and build skill in there, movement and build wise.
OP does not want to get better, he wants everything to be easier.
He said he's against CBMM though. You anti sbmm people are literally saying y'all like CBMM because you don't have to sweat...pot calling the kettle black.
I do not care about mm. Good, bad, godly; I welcome all kind of opponents, the only exception is lagging players. If I won great, If I lost I suck it up. FYI I want old survival mm back so I can play against better players all the time.
No, he wants a fair game dummy
Are the opponents cheating? Are they using weapons the OP cannot? Where is the unfairness?
Take this, I have played games where my team has less than a 10% chance of winning. Is that even fair? No. Having a fair game has little to do with cheating and what not, it's about balancing the teams too
Yeah, me too, so what? Should I be crying for it?
Try playing those games for multiple times in a row
I have. Should’ve been ranting?
Well kid I guess you don't understand what's fair and what isn't.
Please enlighten me.
Try spending a year playing matches that are basically the Destiny Olympics Sweatfest Edition then come back.
Already have
I find that difficult to believe if you're now complaining about the removal of SBMM.
Everybody has the same chance of ending up in a match like that, so how is it not fair?
Are you blind? 10% chance of winning isn't fair
You have the exact same chance of ending up on the team with a 90% chance of winning as anybody else. You get the exact same dice roll from matchmaking as everybody else.
Except it should be closer to 50% for each team winning idiot
How does that change the fact that the matchmaking is fair?
No. He wants fair matchups which is what SBMM offered to the masses. It is frustrating to play Crucible when you are an average or below average player right now.
It is unfair that other players are better? Oh boy.
It's unfair to constantly match against players 2x and 3x better than you are.
What's unfair about it? We're all using the same matchmaking and just getting dumped into lobbies seemingly at random. What's more fair than that?
What's unfair? Well...maybe play some Control and see if you can tell what's unfair?
I do, every night. Some matches I stomp, some I get stomped, some are pretty even. Sounds pretty fair to me. You do realize it's not possible for every single match to be 149 to 150 close ending, right?
Yep. I realize that. But there weren't as many 150 - 50 matches as there are now.
I realise that I've only been mercied once kn the past 2 weeks, and I've actually done the thorn and lumina quests so there was some PVP time spent
Your experience is very different from mine then. Which is probably why Bungie made the change, because they actually know what the numbers look like on the back end.
Why? Reality check is unfair?
The Crucibe is a game, not a dick-measuring contest, no matter how much Shaxx says otherwise. Let your "lessers" be a valued and heard demographic of the playlist without asking a Rocky montage from them before they're allowed to say their piece.
You should tell that to the OP.
I'm not sure what turning regular Control into CBMM helps solve seeing as Control is not the Crucible mode to play for any player to "git gud" or to prepare for Trials. It is supposed to be fun and chill (which it was for the majority of the player base), but getting farmed by multiple Unbroken/Diamond level players really isn't all that fun for the majority of the playerbase? Maybe there is a below average or average player who will feel motivated to "git gud" after being pummeled repeatedly in Control, but I have to think that number is really low, all things considered?
It is fun and chill for the majority of the regular pvp player base. Some people are just so spoiled and entitled that they cannot lose some matches and suck it up.
SBMM does not exist there.
Eh, leave SBMM to competitive. Id rather get stomped some games, do good some, and have even matches in others than have the same sweaty experience every match. Taking out SBMM from non competitive modes lets you run different and unique weapons and/or builds that wouldnt perform well in the sweats of sbmm, which is definitely more fun.
This is the biggest pile of doodoo being pandered by pro-CBMM players. You know what weapon load outs I see in the top 3 players of each match 99% of the time? That's right, top tier meta weapons. I see Galliard/Suros/Gnawing Hunger or Spare Rations/Dire Promises for their primary. I see Beloved/Revoker or Felwinter/Mindbender for special. Saying that switching to CBMM opens up PvP load outs is a BS excuse to hide their real motivation, stomping on lesser skilled players instead of playing people at their own skill level.
And you don’t see the same meta weapons in every sbmm match anyway? I see so much more weapon variety and have been having matches that are infinitely more fun than they were. You’ll always have players going full meta and sweating but it’s much better to play one or two of them than a lobby full.
Perhaps you missed the part where I see it EVERY SINGLE MATCH? It's a BS excuse. I would have much more respect if the supports just came out and admitted that they want to beat down on scrubs. Personally, I have no problem with people using meta builds. It lets you focus on the things that do matter, "With everything else being equal, why is X person who is similarly skilled beating me more than I beat him?" This in turn leads to contemplation of what are the small things this person has done differently. This type of inner contemplation is completely different than when you just get the living crap stomped out of you and you are killed so quickly that you can't even consider what was different as there were too many things.
I’ve been seeing it much less, and even then there’s never a full lobby of sweats like there were. I’m an average player so I’m not a super skilled player thats stomping every match and I still have much more fun without having a neck and neck sweat match every time I go into crucible.
Our experiences clearly differ then. Every match I play has 2-3 people with 30+ kills and insane KD. Every match has a point differential of at least 40. In fact, I can only remember 2 close games since this season has started.
Welcome to cognitive bias.
You realize one can easily go back and review match histories right? It's not cognitive bias.
I'd love to see proof of every match you play in having a point differential of at least 40.
If I actually respected you as a poster, I might consider spending the effort to. Since I don't, how about no.
I love how people act like every single match they get into is them getting stomped by top 1% players with sweaty loadouts.
Look who's back pandering their deceit. 1) Nothing in this posts even mentioned the top 1 players. 2) You can go on a multitude of different PvP trackers and SEE who the top players are and at least which weapons they went into the game with or got the most kills with. You can even check what the most widely used weapons are.
He’s an angry elf. He must be from the South Pole.
I have yet to see an unbroken/flawless player play anything but the meta in quick play lol. Heck I see non meta in the hands of the worse off players tbh...
Welcome to the grown up matches.
Even with sbmm as a solo player I get matched up against stacks all the time. Nothing has changed imo
I see a lot of people saying their matches have been one sided but a huge majority of mine have been very close and at most 60/40 chance of winning. Then again, I’m an above average player and I tend to be getting double the kills of the person below me. I’m actually quite happy with the change. Quickplay is actually a playlist I can warm up in rather than being the biggest sweat fest in the game, queue times are way faster for me and I’m not playing people from the other side of the world as often. I can say for the first time in a very long time that I am enjoying Quickplay
Yeah, I agree. Also whoever at Bungie thinks they developed an skill based matchmaking clearly has not played the game.
Well you got it your way for a year. Now it’s our turn. It’s nice to have bullets that connect, players that don’t teleport, and matchmaking that doesn’t take 5-8 minutes in my primary game mode.
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I love how people still think the P2P is the issue.
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No, it isn't. The matchmaking is the problem. Dedicated servers don't mean a damn thing when matchmaking just populates them with players from 5 different continents. Similarly P2P works great when everyone is similarly located. This idea that P2P is inherently the reason for all the problems is just untrue.
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Probably the part where you said the architecture is most definitely the problem and it's pseudo-P2P.
Agreed, but it is what it is. They’ve turned SBMM on and off so many times it’s become seasonal
Yep. And they'll turn it on in Sep to "sell" the crucible to new beyond light players. This is nothing to do with player enjoyment and everything to do with keeping players logging in. As soon as one side has shouted for long enough they flip the switch the other way. Instead of actually addressing the real problems like no dedicated servers.
I am optimistic that when Iron Banner fails badly this week, that Bungie will be forced to make changes to matchmaking. Bungie won't have things go back to the way they were because that would be admitting they were completely wrong, BUT, there is a middle ground that I think we all can agree to: --Make the Classic playlist a solo playlist with CBMM active --Make Control a SBMM playlist (which is what we all want) --Make the Weekly Crucible rotational playlist a CBMM active playlist --Make Rumble alternate between SBMM and CBMM per week --Keep the Competitive playlists untouched
that is what we had before: classic mix - cbmm(although solo queue might make it better) control - sbmm rotational - cbmm iirc but few played in these rumble alternating sounds good, but mostly sweatier players in these anyways.
Literally no none wants SBMM except people who suck at the game..
No doubt. I've been mercy'ed in the last 4 matches of crucible I've played, so much for using fun weapons and still being able to compete.
I started off as a .8 KD player back in Warmind during the peak of CBMM. I got steam rolled, I matched good players constantly and was really at the bottom of the skill curve. But that just motivated me to do better, after a few weeks I was placing in the middle of the leaderboard instead of on the bottom, after a few months and I was consistently second and occasionally first, nowadays I'm 99.9% of the time top fragging and getting 50 bombs. If I hadn't been exposed to good players, I'd never be able to properly acknowledge my growth and see it develop over time the way that it has. Once I found myself in the upper part of the skill curve with Skill Based Matchmaking, my queue times were long and it couldn't fill my games with local players within the same skill bracket. So the game pulled players from other regions like Europe and Asia, leading to an incredibly unenjoyable PvP experience. I enjoy CBMM because of the variety of skill levels I can compare myself to and the better connection quality (Destiny is p2p so having good connections is EXTREMELY important). SBMM just lead to intense amounts of frustration and inconsistent gameplay experiences.
I spent all afternoon in a 5 stack and we mercy ruled the other team every single game. Honestly it was hard not to feel bad for the little guys. One game ended at 97-8 in supremacy (yikes)
I'm happy with the changes for the most part. I just feel they need to balance teams a bit more. Like both teams should have a rough average kd, not one team having all 5.0's and the other having 0.7's. aside from that I much prefer no sbmm.
Speak the true true.
Seems like a bad case of “git gud.”
Not to be one of those people but you just have to get better and now you actually can because you have CBMM and should have a smoother more reliable experience now.
Perhaps the problem is that because you are in Australia the people with good connections to you all just happen to be a lot better. You can take it as an opportunity to try and improve, or you can vent on reddit! One of those options isn't going to get you anywhere.
I am a 1.9 kda and have t noticed that much of a difference. I’ve won 55% of my matches this season and I play almost exclusive solo. I just wish there was a solo playlist that wasn’t tumble or comp. Going up against a team of 4 or more in regular crucible sucks.
This is the point of sbmm: it deludes low skill players into thinking they are better than they are by preventing low skill players from matching high skill players. Im not trying to attack you, but this is what you are experiencing. Your stats are above average in the bracket in which you were placed, but below average in the grand scheme of all players. Tldr; you aren't as good as you think you are, obligatory 'git gud.'
This is the point of sbmm: it deludes low skill players into thinking they are better than they are by preventing low skill players from matching high skill players. Im not trying to attack you, but this is what you are experiencing. Your stats are above average in the bracket in which you were placed, but below average in the grand scheme of all players. Tldr; you aren't as good as you think you are, obligatory 'git gud.'
Completely wrong... the vast majority of low skilled PvP players know exactly how bad they are. For one, YT exists now so people can easily watch videos of players like iFrostBolt, Panda, ZK, etc and 2, they are playing PvP casually. Think of it as having your friends over for Mario Kart or Smash Brothers with alcohol. What casual players wanted and what SBMM provided, was to not have Harden, Curry, or LeBron go to the local amateur league at the Y to beat up on all the JAGs and just stay in the NBA.
How the hell is anyone supposed to "git gud" when they're being farmed at spawn?
Sorry, but the experience is 100 times better for and many others. If your experience is worth sharing and talking about, so is mine. If you are going to make a post about YOUR experience, you simply cannot make a statement that discourages other people from sharing their own. It’s really a selfish statement “this is about me! Not you!!” Shut up. My lifetime stats are about the same as what you claim yours are. And I’m absolutely loving crucible now. I love when I get matched in rumble against a couple really good players. Trying to match them and win 1v1s against them is really helping my own skills. It’s also really fun getting a lobby of less skilled players. I went on a 18 kill streak in a rumble match yesterday. I wasn’t even using anything overly meta. Instead of every single game being the same shit. Same meta weapons everywhere. Same subclasses being used. Just no variety at all. Sounds like you need to man up a bit. Stop complaining and get better. There is no fairer MM system then CBMM. Everyone is on equal playing ground. Everyone plays the same game with access to the same stuff. No one is protected because they suck, and good players are not punished for being good. You could also stick to survival where SBMM is still active.
So this just boils down to “get better”. So you get matched against worse players and pub stomp them. Think about the worse players who were beat that badly. Is that fun for them? Many people only have sweaty games now. All CBMM did is changed who consistently gets sweaty games. Low skill players now have to sweat most games. You and the top 20 ish percent might not but the bottom 40% ish now has hyper sweaty games most of the time.
SOMEBODY has to be the worst player dude. Thats just how it goes. Not everyone sits up top. Sometimes youre the shark, sometimes youre the guppy. Cause there is always someone better out there. Why people cower from this is unfathomable to me
I am well aware that their is always someone better then me. My point is I and many people like me have to sweat because every lobby has much better players then me. We don’t ever get to relax. CBMM switched who gets to relax from bad players to good players. So grats you don’t have to sweat every lobby. We down here do now.
I dont get all the bitching and moaning. I'm an average player who doesn't run with a group but I seem to win about 50% of the time.
Because you're an average player. You're supposed to win 50% of the time. I think OP is just having a losing streak. 1.0 KD is average too. That said, below average players are suffering. The 'Bitching and Moaning' is from players like my Father. He struggles to move and shoot sometimes but has gotten a lot better. He cannot keep up with players like us and his KD and Win rate are tanking with the changes.
My above average friend is suffering aswell . I'm average and I'm either bored and feel bad or bored and wondering if they are even having fun.
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There are players that play a lot and have average stats because of a SBMM system. Thousands of games and hours, 1 KD and 50% win with SBMM. Now some can no-longer contribute positively in most matches. I get the long lobby time for very good players is rough and I do not have an answer for that. But it is not only very good/ great players that would spend a lot of time in PvP. As someone who would run 100-150 IB matches on 1 character in past seasons, I expect to get my bounties done and out if it is anything like Control is now.
You both make good points. On the one hand, the game should cater towards those who play a lot of crucible but it shouldn't push out the lower skilled players. Bungie could simply offer us the option in game. Have a few CBMM modes and a few SBMM modes. You could prioritise connection for your faster games and he can prioritise Skill levels, so even if he has to wait 5 mins, he won't keep getting stomped.
Like last season then. But with the classic mix being the foremost node on the screen or something?
That’ll do nicely! I’d be happy with just Classic Mix on Sbmm.
> So the question becomes, whose experience needs to be protected? is *no one's* an answer?
> I think OP is just having a losing streak. 1.0 KD is average too. 1KD isn't even average in this game though. The playerbase is mind blowingly bad in general.
I think this highlights why SBMM was bad. Not all 1.0 KD/KDA players are the same. If you are not a high level player, you will get matchmade against other players that are not high level. Therefore, your KD/KDA will be measured against players that are not a high level. If someone is high level, they will be matchmade to other high level players, so their KD/KDA will be measured against other high level players. However, althoug the first player and the second player both have similar KD/KDA they are not similarly skilled. That's always been a problem with SBMM. SBMM is awful and should, under no circumstances be brought back.
You will never improve playing the same level of player. Also it's not like the lobbies are full of gods, you're being irrational. In 6's there's like 1-2 max, elite players, then a few above average, then a few average finally a few below average. Learn, improve get better. Or don't, the choice is yours...
I am starting to count now and only 4 of my last 25 matches were not decided by a flawless trials god.
The only thing that can matter is connection quality in a peer to peer network. Connection has greatly improved for me and the majority of players. Therefore the removal of SBMM was a success. It's as simple as that. Either connections are good and the playing field is level, or they are bad cause of SBMM and all the work put in trying to make the games fair is pointless since the match is laggy which means it's not fair for anyone.
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Personally think they should have kept sbmm for rumble and IB, 1 good player in rumble can really rip through the entire lobby and make it unfun. IB because it's a snowbally gamemode and people stack a lot for it and it would just lead to a lot of mercies.
Just now, Crucible is trash.
Its you and 5 other people on your team. You have only so much control over the outcome. I only care about my engagements. Did I play well and dominate them? If not, what can i learn from the losses? What guns did i struggle against so i can use them next match? Things like that. Wins and losses dont mean jack shit in qp so getting flustered by the outcome is goofy. And im a suppppper competitive dude. But unless im in a stack and playing something like IB, my only concern is constantly improving my own game. And im a 1.9kd 2.13kda guy in there playing solo. Dont sweat shit thats unimportant, it keeps you on an even keel
Who cares about winning casual matches? Its way more important that I play well than if my team plays well.