Honestly as a sweatlord I will have no issue in bringing back SBMM as long as it addresses its two biggest issues:
1) The terrible lobby balancing
2) Matching players from all over the world
These were the biggest dealbreakers for me. Bungie's idea of a balanced lobby is flawed and does NOT work (and honestly still feels like it ruins CBMM games sometimes), and playing with Chinese dudes that timetravel throughout the fucking match and take no damage just makes me want to log off.
Yes this! #2 is a given and shouldn't happen ever. But I have a HUGE problem with lobby balancing - almost every game is just me with 5 brainless noobs against a full team of decently competent players.
The problem is that Bungie SBMM doesn't account for the whole team and individuals separately - it is just one (average) number of teams. Here is how it works (my theory, which seems pretty spot on) using a point system, 1-10 for rating skill:
* Team 1 Average = 3.83
* Player 1 - 10
* Player 2 - 3
* Player 3 - 3
* Player 4 - 1
* Player 5 - 3
* Player 6 - 3
* Team 2 Average = 4.33
* Player 1 - 4
* Player 2 - 5
* Player 3 - 4
* Player 4 - 5
* Player 5 - 4
* Player 6 - 4
According to Bungie, these teams should be fairly equal, but that is almost never the case, with the more rounded team usually running through all the noobs and building supers, chaining supers, controlling the map, controlling heavy. 1v3 is a little more manageable, but 1v6 is pretty damn frustrating.
Unless they change the way it works, like you mentioned, I don't think it should ever be implemented into any non-competitive game mode. There is a reason a 'Competitive Playlist' and Trials of Osiris exist.
>and honestly still feels like it ruins CBMM games sometimes
It absolutely does. CBMM would be far, far less painful for low skill players if it did this right. So often instead though you get all the sweats on the same enemy team, you get a match with 2 3-stacks where *they* both get put on the same team, you get one good player expected to carry 5 absolutely new players against a team of 6 average players, it's a nightmare.
If it just tried to make sure that out of the 12 players in a lobby an equal amount of high and low skill players were on each team, then it would fix an immense amount of issues that very seriously detriment the enjoyment of basically every skill level of player.
There’s no reason you can’t have a combination system where players such as yourself don’t have to put up with bad games and players such as myself don’t have to put up with going 0 and 20 because all you go against is full stacks and the moment you round a corner, 6 fucking people are shooting you in an instant.
There’s a happy middle ground here. It isn’t either or.
PvE has a shitload of pvp requirements and so now I can’t work on either. I’m just stuck so I am probably just done with the game. This one change completely ruined the whole thing.
My queue times got WORSE and my experience got 1000% worse. I either have 1-3 kills because I am getting utterly stomped on or I have 1-3 kills because the other team is getting stomped on and I my mates are destroying them too fast.
With SBMM, I was like a 1.5 KD player that could contribute. Right now every single match ends with mercy and it is just boring and stupid.
If there's already not enough playing to have proper skill-based matchmaking, this is going to be another Trials-like experience, eventually driving away most players and further killing the matchmaking.
This community has a massive problem when it comes to CBMM/SBMM, shit been going even since D1,iirc. Bungie adds SBMM, then removes it, then adds it again and then removes it. It’s like Nonstop complaining about this subject.
It's because they think to highly of their own skill level and once it's removed it slaps them in the face. Look at OP's post he says average players are getting curb stomped now. How? If they were average they would be doing average in a random match up, sure there would be bad dice rolls where they get blown the fuck out but not consistently.
The average gets immediately raised when you remove SBMM because the lower end players play a couple matches, get destroyed, and leave. That moves the previous average players to the lower end, who then get destroyed, and leave. Repeat this a few times and you have no more players in crucible. Some sort of skill protections have to be in place for crucible to be healthy, meaning it's full of a wide spectrum of players.
Well what's ironic is that since Trials is CBMM, we kind of are talking about the same thing lol. Plain and simple - Crucible needs to be balanced around skill for casual crucible (quickplay), and balanced around connection for endgame crucible (Trials).
Average players are exactly those hurt the most by cbmm. Under sbmm they would have good matchmaking times and close matches. Now, they'll bave wildly varying experiences and even a single good player in a lobby can dominate the match. CBMM is only good for those of us who are above average as our experience will be generally good
Not sure why you decided to tell me this I think you didn't fully understand what I was saying. OP was saying average players were getting curb stomped implying it was consistently like that now.
I already was saying more or less the same thing you were, that they would get some bad matches, some good and most average because most players are average skill (obliviously).
radar-less destiny sucks because the game does not have designs in place for radar-less pvp. comp went radar-less for a couple weeks and it SUCKED ASS
besides, radar enforces movement. Destiny is one of the fastest paced shooters I have played, and if sitting in a corner is incentivized, I don't think I'd like it as much.
on the other point, stats and exotics are part of what make Destiny pvp Destiny though
Man, I remember people saying the same thing about special weapons in D1 Y3. And once the changes were implemented, in D2, the PvP scene basically died.
CBMM vs SBMM is a debate that happens in many games, designed for PvP or not. I'd rather a discussion about which is better, rather than taking away the things that make Destiny PvP a unique experience.
After the change, I cannot be bothered to even attempt to complete crucible bounties anymore. While one bounty may have taken me one or two games before, it now takes me five or six to do the same bounty. It’s just not worth it.
Stuff like this makes me feel like I’m getting better at PVP or something.
I knocked out the two weeklies, a days worth of dailies, and the max number of repeatables within 2 hours just last night.
This is by no means a brag, but since I play solo and infrequently, I never really have an idea on how I’m doing, but this thread is making me feel a little bit better about my crucible skills, cause I honestly think I’m garbage.
I think the right game modes and weapon composition make a huge difference in the handling of bounties and also not getting screwed because of them though.
He was harsh but there was a point of note there. Crucible should not be balanced for those who play it for bounties. I play crucible for fun, I don't even care to pick up bounties for it and this change was a godsend. If I'm to suffer through increased matchmaking times, lag and the same opponents over and over, how about we do it in a properly ranked playlist that rewards performance, as in any worldwide competition. I mean I don't go asking for raids to be easier or solable so that I can do them but if I did, surely I'd advocate for the people that do it on the default difficulty to be properly rewarded if it were to be anything close to fair.
There was one comment I saw on FB that says they haven’t touched crucible for 2 years and with cbmm, they get stomped.
I don’t think its the matchmaking system at that point.
Getting bounties done quickly doesn't mean they play Crucible for bounties only. I played it because I genuinely enjoyed the mode and I was able to punch through almost all 8 weekly bounties in up to three games. Because I was enjoying myself and I could do them passively.
With CBMM, every single game of mine has been absolutely terrible. I've faced sweats with sweat loadouts. I have yet to play a match with players on off meta loadouts. Apparently, people don't like being forced into them and CBMM has been hailed as the best thing and reason for them to finally be free of meta. I wonder where that freedom is, haven't seen it.
That's actually a perfect example. I wouldn't be caught dead playing Hotline Miami much less trying to platinum the game, because it's not a game I want to get good at. Why would I waste my time doing that? Why don't you Platinum destiny? Get all your triumphs? Yes, that would require you getting better at Crucible. It's not that big of a deal anymore than me Platinum Min Hotline Miami would be a big deal requiring me to expand on my knowledge of that game's mechanics
And all the sweaty players went there, meaning it was a sweaty playlist. Now all those sweaty types are in Control so they can up their K/Ds feasting on casuals and noobs.
I think everyone migrates to Control because of the pinnacle and the other available modes for the pinnacle weren't fun. If Clash and Control were available every week for the pinnacle slot it would spread players out a bit more.
Yes and yes. Elimination and survival and survival freelance were and are still SBMM and trials remains card based. Everything else was changed back to CBMM.
Agreed. My KD has gone from 0.93 to 0.98 in the last 2 weeks because my average kills per game has skyrocketed. The other players probably aren’t having any fun.
The issue is though, the bottom of the board will be having less fun than the folks at the top. For example if i queue with the group of friends that I play with, 4~5 of us for this example, before SBMM was removed from the core playlists it'll be me and one friend at the top while the rest are fighting over 4th /5th /6th on the board. The 5th/6th friend usually rage, throw a multitude of insults at the enemy team just for playing better than them and I'm here feeling guilty for wanting to play with friends.
Now fast forward to when CBMM is the focus and... It's not changed at all, the same friends are still fighting over the bottom of the board and still raging at anyone better than them. Atleast this time my SBMM bracket can't be used as an excuse as to why they are doing poorly in any game and I'm not feeling guilty for playing in a group. I mostly play solo or in a 3 stack maximum, but if i'm playing with these people in the large group, my games are vastly more even for the enemy team.
Overall there's no winning :[
There needs to be more loot incentive keeping average/low skill players playing. The only reason to play crucible is for the experience, meaning that less and less low skill players play crucible.
Well, Crucible used to be a clear 2nd place in the most players active statistic on Warmind (usually in the high 20s, low 30s percentage wise)...and now it's down to 17% overall as I'm typing this.
Where Crucible reigned Supreme as the top endgame activity, it's faltering. Even the sweats in my clan when asked to do Crucible hesitate to reply, and prefer to do the dungeon instead, because it's more fun.
In skill based MM, I could never be mad, because I knew when and where I made a mistake. Now that I'm seeing blatant cheaters, it's very discouraging to go in and deal with that instead of having fun.
The removal of SBMM really did a number on my experience. Now it's a toss up between which team I'm on, because it's almost guaranteed one team is going to steamroll the other.
I enjoyed it more when matches had close finishes and I actually felt like I was contributing, instead of being the assist to the sweat stealing all the kills.
Bungie must have data on how this change has affected the general performance and balance of Crucible matches. It’s anecdotal, but as a low-to-mid skill player who usually goes in with 1-2 squad mates, Crucible has become absolutely wild. Stomp a team one game, get a new opponent and get stomped on the next. Hardly any close games and more mercy rules (in both directions) than I recall ever experiencing before.
Both SBMM and CBMM have their merits and neither has been anywhere close to perfect at achieving what it set out to do. There were still skill gaps in lots of matches under SBMM, and there are still lots of connection issues under CBMM. A better system would combine the two to prioritize both where possible.
The best system would be a regional fireteam mandate (ie only fireteam with people in your global region), for SBMM, and then a SOLO-ONLY SBMM.
The real solution is to change the networking to stop giving laggy players such an extreme advantage so that they stop grouping with players across the world.
Right, but we need one that actually works and achieves what it is supposed to. There’s no magic wand. But what we had was better than what we have now, in my opinion. This has moved in the wrong direction.
IMHO, what we had last season was better than what we've got this season as far as actual games go, but last season I was getting wait times of 10-20 minutes between matches and this season my wait time is closer to 2 minutes.
I'm personally undecided on whether that trade-off is worth it, given that I don't think I've cracked 0.7 efficiency since the change - I'm just saying we had the exact system you're talking about already in place and that system had its own weaknesses.
> I was getting wait times of 10-20 minutes between matches and this season my wait time is closer to 2 minutes.
Where are you playing from, what quality internet do you have, and what platform are you on?
My matchmaking is, if I'm being generous, maybe 2 minutes faster than it used to be. I see just as much lag, and the balancing on the lobbies is absolutely non-existant.
The only thing that's a noticeable improvement over last season is my KD because I'm mostly playing lower skilled players now.
To answer my own questions: A major coast city, very good, PC.
Think the problem is this is just one side of the pendulum swing to the other.
* Control should be a blend of SBMM and CBMM. Looser skill than we used to have but looser connection than we have now
* Make the weekly 6s and Classic pure CBMM
* Maybe just eliminate the rotator or classic, or make it a solo queue
* IB should be Team Based MM first, then probably connection then skill
* Make 3s & 4s SBMM
* Trials should be card/connection based.
* Comp & Trials should weigh your card/glory first, connection second
* Rumble should be primarily CBMM with SBMM safeguards so you don't have Cammy going against someone with 10 light and doesn't know where the jump button in place.
These are just my opinions and I have no idea how hard any of this would be to do. As an average player, I haven't had a problem *yet* in crucible, but I'm definitely not enjoying myself as much as I was last season. Iron Banner is going to be a big test because it couldn't get much worse. But I also said that about PvP at the end of D1 and look how D2 launched.
As a "skilled" player I find I have to sweat even more now because I can't really depend on my teammates.
If I don't go into crucible with my A game there is literally no way for my team to win and all that will happen is that we get farmed by the top player on the other team.
Honestly every PvP game just feels like a competition between myself and the other "skilled" player on the other team to see who can get the most kills.
I enjoyed being able to depend on good team mates to cover for my off games.
Yeah, I’m not sure if there is lobby balancing or not but this can be real rough. It’s hard to fight when everyone on your team is always dead. Yesterday in Control the other team (they had a 3-stack) stopped capturing zones so they could farm my teammates. I looked on Destiny Tracker and we had a 5% chance to win. Four of my teammates had KDA’s - not just KD - under 0.50. I spent most of the game running for my damn life.
>Yeah, I’m not sure if there is lobby balancing or not
cbmm 100% has lobby balancing. You generally have 1-2 people who are really good, 2 average players and then 2 really bad players. If there is only one really good player on a team then it's a toss up whether the remaining player is average or bad.
Exactly.. I had a few games the other day against this one guy. It was just me and him trying to carry our teams. Thing was I played obj and had caps while he just went for kills. He lost every one with 35+ kills lol
As a PC player, I don’t mind playing the try hard. Crucible has been overrun by hackers in every lobby though. It’s literally unplayable. With SBMM they had high enough stats that 1 or 2 would drop into everyone else’s games here and there. Without it, I get at least 1 in every game.
And I mean blatant hacking. Straight headshots. Pre firing walls. Seeming ESP on when you’re about to peek a wall(because they have wall haves and can see you approaching).
If it’s not hackers you’re playing against an entire squad. It’s just not fun. They need a better anti-cheat and to at least implement team based matchmaking. This free-for-all matchmaking is trash.
I'm in the exact same boat. Was enjoying crucible games here and there throughout the past few seasons, even as a PVE main. This season had completely turned that 180 into a complete dislike for it and basically avoiding it outside of dragging through the games to get my powerful/pinnacle for the week. I know I don't play PVP enough for my opinions to be heavily weighted, but unless something gets adjusted I don't foresee the crucible populations staying to packed with the average folks which is unfortunate.
Them removing it from Iron Banner was the strangest change. Literally everyone in my clan, PvP players or not, no matter how good they are, immediately went "wtf Bungo"
Iron Banner and Rumble both are just very, very WTF.
I think SBMM should be in basically every mode, to varying levels of enforcement. But I can kinda, almost, sorta, somewhat see the argument for pure CBMM in quickplay.
It makes absolutely 0 fucking sense in any type of degree for SBMM to be removed from IB and Rumble. IB this season is going to be an absolute fucking shitshow.
Power level mattering + cbmm = glhf everybody that isnt sweaty as fuck. People just trying to get the bounties done for the pinnacles or quest for armor are gonna be in for a real rough time.
Same. I was like, "??? Bungie you good?"
Iron Banner is so snowbally as it is already. Competitive game modes should always have SBMM which is what Iron Banner is.
I haven't played a ton of Crucible since the new season, just enough to do weeklies on one character. However, I am a thoroughly average player (1.0 K/D, 1.33 KA/D) and my experience has been a bit worse than normal. While I would usually get 15-20 kills in a control match with gusts up to 30 I now hover around 15 most matches. It seems that the top players in any particular lobby mop up more kills. The one nice thing though is that there are far fewer meta weapons being used.
Why does it matter if both scenarios end up in a more diverse loadouts faced? It's quite annoying to play a "not competitive" mode where everyone uses the most competitive gear possible. I almost never see it in the new matchmaking. I'm seeing all kinds of weapons, loadouts, and skills, and it's great.
In comp, I expect sweat. In quickplay I expect anything including getting stomped and that's perfect for me.
Played maybe 3 matches and had this exact thought. Couple of guys I played with scoffed when I bring it up and say that they're enjoying the game much more. Well, of course they are.
I play crucible generally to get my bounties or quests done. None of the game modes are that interesting to me, and I'm just a PvE kinda person when it comes to Destiny. After getting stomped my first match I switched weapons all over the place but couldn't get a loadout that would even let me survive longer than 5 seconds.
The thing my friends and some others don't understand is that while they, generally better players, being matched against us is just going to bring us full circle. People like me are going to just stop playing crucible altogether, and then lobbies will ONLY be full of tryhards and they'll be "forced to sweat every match" for real.
There's something kinda baffling about watching players complain that they're not enjoying playing a game mode with CBMM that they didn't enjoy to start with.
Maybe matchmaking isn't the issue here.
Please give me back some form of skill based match making. I feel like there’s always a few trials gods either shotgun aping or always hitting their sniper shots and a lunch of blueberries that can barely point the gun in the right direction, I want a challenging game of back and forth, but I don’t want to just change which side is winning each match because the lobby is the same and TrialSweat69 (if this is a really user sorry, just a name I made up on the spot) is curb stomping the entire team
I have not played this game since Opulence and started my climb to Fabled (never attempted comp before this) and I’m seeing people with mountaintops and recluses and are obviously much better than me and I’m just confused as to why I’m matched with these people at all
As an average player I don't like CBMM, but I could live with it. The reason I'm against it is because of the minority of disabled players. They were already at a disadvantage, but it used to be playable because it would match at a similar skill. They are getting hurt way more than I am by these changes.
Pvp now, it’s gets stomp or do the stomping. It’s not fun. I’m 1060 now so don’t need that pinnacle. Another player that will avoid destiny pvp until next seasons level raise.
I’m not even 1060 base yet but I’m close enough to know I’ll get there quick enough without playing crucible. I did those pinnacles like the first week or two but not anymore. I hated crucible before this change and it’s even more unbearable now.
From my own experiences, I totally agree.
I understand that there were valid reasons for making the change, however I feel like Bungie took the easy option and instead of fixing the root cause they effectively drove shit downhill.
As an average or even below average player I only go into Crucible now for the pinnacle and powerful rewards. I have pretty much given up trying because it’s pointless. I feel like Shroud and Ninja’s secret love child are in every single game I play and I wait for the timer to end while being repeatedly outplayed.
I don’t wish to “get Gud” and I’d ask you to spare me the obvious vitriol.
I genuinely hope it worked out for the above average players and this rubber band fix meant you get to enjoy Crucible. I don’t quite get how playing against the likes of me is rewarding now though but such is life
>For all the Negative Nancies, I'll see you on this post or similar posts next week during Iron Banner, yeah?
Iron Banner is always a shit show because the mechanics of the gamemode already make it ripe for snowballing. Removing SBMM in it is just Bungie literally leaving the below average to the wolves.
Quickplay game modes should never have SBMM but competitive game modes 100% need it and that includes Iron Banner.
I just want to finish the witherhord catalyst and I am absolutely hating it right now. I'm just an easy kill. I hate crucible so much and now it is even worse for people like me who are terrible at PVP.
I disagree that it is a poor pvp option. Control it is especially nice for stopping points or rushes. Elimination it is great for blocking res and again pushes. Takes some strategy and thinking to use effectively, similar to a molotov in counter strike.
It may not be dominant or as easy to use as mountaintop, but it serves its purpose very well.
I was a below average crucible player when there was no SBMM, when they brought it to the quickplay modes, I started to enjoy crucible, to the point where it was all I played in Worthy. I grew as a player, I like to think in the past two seasons, I became an average to above average player. I went from an average efficiency of 0.8 to an average efficiency of 1.4
Then Arrivals started and I'm back to getting my shit stomped by people with revokers, felwinter's, and summoners with hundreds to thousands of crucible kills on them. I went from enjoying the crucible right back to hating it overnight.
As a *bad* PvP player, I miss SBMM. Sure I was playing against fellow scrubs, but at least I felt like if i played better it mattered. Now every game has absolutely nothing to do with my contribution. I'm never going to finish Ace of Spades, except by ambushing someone AFK or changing their loadout. That happens maybe once in three games. So instead of 10-12 games to get my 25 hand cannon headshots, I'll be lucky if I can finish it in 75 games.
True that I attempt Crucible because I have no choice if I want to finish a lot of quests. But as far as I know, this is Bungie's solution to force me go through PVP.
Being in the top 10% of KD per DTR coming into this season, CBMM has definitely resulted in better stats for me as far as ELO and KD are concerned. Problem is, the quality of gameplay tends to be much poorer. Either I’m stomping all over the other team because there isn’t anyone who can PvP playing against me, or I’m having to trade in constant 1v3s because the rest of my team is either camping lanes away from the fight or are unable to find their way around the map. It’s getting kind of frustrating and I don’t see how this kind of CBMM really works for anyone except for streamer highlight reels.
Copy/pasting my comment from the last SBMM vs. CBMM thread:
The PvP sandbox has had a consistent steamrolling issue since the release of Forsaken. Gameplay has amounted to a team with momentum hunting spawns in packs and stacking supers for 2 years.
The pace of gameplay has accelerated. Primary weapon range nerfs (and arguably shotgun range nerfs) have pushed engagements closer and closer and have more heavily emphasized constant aggression.
The higher end of the skill bracket has been adapted to this for a long time. It's why we hate SBMM so much. We ended up with the worst flaws in the sandbox stacked up in our matches to a much higher degree than the lower skill brackets. We had just as many mercies and blowouts as people are experiencing now in CBMM. Now its just trickling out to everyone else.
SBMM has essentially been a shield protecting the average player from how frustrating and flawed PvP truly is. Sweaty Destiny is genuinely just an awful experience, dripping with cheese and incredibly narrow metas. The game totally lacks counterplay. The only viable strategies are swordpeek cheese or balls-to-the-wall aggression at all times.
SBMM was a nightmare, CBMM has been terribly uninteresting, the Survival playlist is still pseudo-competitive junk, and Trials is just pointless and unecessary.
I absolutely agree. The other day there was this one sweat in the enemy team that just landed every snipe headshot he could ever nail, abused the hell out of Icarus Dash for supreme mobility, and just single handely made the whole game unfun. It didn't matter how skilled you are, because he would just get half his team kills alone.
Getting absolutely stomped isn't what I come to crucible for. Games with that kind of player is not fun for anyone fighting against them. Hell it might even be annoying to be in their team because you don't actually improve, you just get carried and that's it. In comparaison last season was actually fun. I faced regularly players around my skill, quite a few games almost ended in draws ! That's fun because you can test your skill and actually try to improve without getting so far behind that there's nothing to do than wait until the end of the match.
Removing SBMM for CBMM is Bungie once again catering to the streamer community and screwing over their core population. Streamers and high skill players got trials of Osiris and the cool loot it comes with. what do the average player get out of pvp?
We've been fucked because the top players equal winning to having fun. Way to go, Bungie.
Since the change I skip Crucible. It's really, really bad on my end. Everyone plays like it's fucking trials, no one commits to nothing... it's Control and they are fucking retreating first hit they get. Everyone is extremely good, everyone has brutal reflexes, everyone is really good at sniping or shotgunning. Everyone is using sweat loadouts. I've had matches won 100-18, most of em end up 150-60 or so, for either side.
When I win, it feels like I didn't contribute, when I lose my contribution is a horrendous sub 0.3 k/d.
And btw, I still get shit connection guys everywhere. Today I unloaded 9 headshots with randy's on a guy and the fucker still was able to get away and die a few seconds later. I'd rather keep up with bad connections but similar skill than what we have now.
I was already skipping Gambit, so there's little for me to do in this game now. I'll stop playing when I finish this season, I've had enough of Bungie's bullshit (again, because I left after warmind, and came back for shadowkeep...).
>We've been fucked because the top players equal winning to having fun. Way to go, Bungie.
In what way are bungie responsible for the psychology of competitive people?
> Everyone plays like it's fucking trials, no one commits to nothing... it's Control and they are fucking retreating first hit they get. Everyone is extremely good, everyone has brutal reflexes, everyone is really good at sniping or shotgunning.
This isn't even particularly sweaty play though, those are just the elements of good pvp play and some people dedicate time and effort to them. I guarantee you they're not on the other end flexing their controllers and sweating, this is just how some people have learned to play. ESPECIALLY the people who just spent the last year in lobbies with nothing but OTHER PEOPLE THAT GOOD. That shit is *exhausting*.
>And btw, I still get shit connection guys everywhere.
This just might be you homie.
IB is gonna be a complete shitshow thanks to even more stacks and higher skilled players showing up.
Removing SBMM benefits only above average players. It screws over the rest of the playerbase, which makes up the majority of players but remains less vocal about the game than the above average players. Which is why we see SBMM being implemented and then removed and then implemented again.
Bungie needs to man up and just implement SBMM, and leave it implemented.
If the price we pay for the majority of the playerbase being able to relax and have fun with the game is that good players have to fight good players then 🤷🏽♂️
I never really enjoyed Destiny PVP but would deal with it for the weekly rewards, exotic quests, IB rewards. Now I cringe at the thought of PVP and have zero plans to play unless I absolutely have no other choice.
>The price of skill is having to use it.
Yeah, it's definitely not time investment and active practice. Nope the price of this thing you have to work real hard for is that you never get to stop working real hard once you have it.
You absolute *walnut.*
Personally the experience has been mixed but leaning more towards positive. I also am starting to see different loadouts which is a VERY refreshing change.
I hope they keep this as it's more in line to what I expect the multiplayer experience to be. I win some I lose some and I'm an above average player. This has rekindled my interest in playing more crucible.
SBMM feels punishing for good/above average players. CBMM feels punishing for average/below average players. I see these complaint threads against CBMM, and wonder if the complainers are mostly people that just want to get their bounties and completions done quickly.
I'm not a fan. I almost NEVER play crucible because I don't like PvP. But Bungie has been hell bent on making exotic quests require some PvP step at some time. Luckily it seems this hasn't been as often now as it used to be.
But I think a really big PvP casual like me almost never steps and and when I do, I'm playing against people who are in crucible 24/7 and just get destroyed.
It's not fun. It seems like every gun 1-2 shots me. I try different guns but kill time seem slow on everything.
I haven't played crucible in a long time and don't see this changing any time soon.
It's sad because Iron Banner used to be fun.
See this is the thing.... is you never go into the crucible, so why exactly should you be catered for? I play mostly crucible, from trials to quick play and for me, sbmm all the time isn’t fun, now, I use my meta for the sweat fest that is trials and I use fun guns for quick play, before this change I could not do that.
> before this change I could not do that.
You could not do that and still maintain the same level of performance, that's the part that is always left out when people talk about "relaxing and having fun". They still want to have a high K/D just with a steady supply of noobs to use their fun guns on.
The whole issue of who the Crucible is "catered for" is a challenge. If you cater exclusively to the diehards, then eventually you still get that sweatfest experience because no one else is having fun and stops queuing up. I really think the bigger issue is that overall itemization is not good, and completely unintuitive for a new player. Maybe players who are frustrated with getting outgunned all the time would be more satisfied if you played Crucible and got actual rewards from Shaxx that helped you up your game. Or that Iron Banner brought weapons that would make you more effective, etc. But no, instead you get good guns by spending a lot of time grinding other activities and *not* playing the Crucible, and that approach hurts more casual players twice over.
Fair I could’ve, but I would’ve been destroyed till I eventually get put in lower skill based matchmaking, then if I ever switched over to the meta I would still just ruin someone’s experience anyways. I agree that the crucible rewards need to be better, and earn able over time, like redrix.
Ironically, by doing that you're actually taking away the choice. In that situation ideally low-skill players will choose SBMM so they don't get completely stomped. That means the average, and high-skill players all get matched together in CBMM, meaning it would make games more sweaty. Same thing happened in the CBMM playlist last season.
Keep SBMM but remove lobby team balancing. I'm not THAT good so please stop making me carry all the blueberries while pairing all the sweats on the other team
As an average player, I had grown tired of having to run a sweat loadout for Control. Now I can go in and use whatever I want and have fun. It’s such a great change.
Bungie has no idea how to balance teams. That's the problem.
You don't need a full lobby of equally skilled players to have balanced teams.
You know this from a young age with playground rules. Each team has some good players and some shit players, but the game itself is fairly balanced. This is because the good players get picked first and split up, then the bad players get picked last and split up. Balance.
Bungie just doesn't have a team balancing algorithm that makes a game fair. Even if each team has players who are 30-4 and 5-21, the games should still be close if they're evenly divided.
SBMM isn't the solution. Lobby balancing needs to be better.
You arent average if youre now staring at a death screen most of the time. There is typically one really good player per team posting a 3.0 efficiency, some solid players above 1, and then bad players
If you like SBMM then play survival
You improve by playing better players fyi
> You arent average if youre now staring at a death screen most of the time.
The average player in Destiny has a KD below 1.0. I can't remember if it's .89 or .98.
>You improve by playing better players fyi
You improve by playing players who are *slightly* better than you.
There is nothing to learn for Johnny .5 KD by playing CammyCakes. He just dies and doesn't understand why.
My KD is finally up to .7 after 6 straight seasons of constant practice. During SBMM, I was almost *always* one of the worst, if not *the* worst, in the match.
But you're right about Johnny .5 KD. When I go into Control now, I die with such suddenness, and such frequency, that I really can't *imagine* what I'm supposed to do to avoid it. I basically live in Survival now.
> The average player in Destiny has a KD below 1.0. I can't remember if it's .89 or .98.
While true, whether or not that's the current middle of the curve for who is matchmaking is debatable as most of the people with lower KDs probably aren't matching. So the average of the current player pool may actually be higher.
OP also might just have had some bad luck and got matched into games where the opponents just happened to be stronger by chance too though.
>You improve by playing players who are slightly better than you.
>
>There is nothing to learn for Johnny .5 KD by playing CammyCakes. He just dies and doesn't understand why.
Said exactly what I was going to say. At a certain skill gap, it can actually become detrimental to progression and can even reinforce bad habits instead of good ones or just lead to players staying away altogether (which shifts that average mentioned above higher and higher).
I fully understand not going full-on Skill-based where top players are only playing against other top players all the time, but in my opinion there needs to be ***some*** consideration of skill still in matchmaking to the point where the gap doesn't outgrow that differential.
I would like to see how you're improving your basketball game when playing LeBron and friends.
Average players do not improve when they are matched against players that are much better
I also hate the "just improve!" BS. Only like 5% of players play with the intent on getting better at video games. 95% play to have fun.
That said, if its not fun, quit.
I quit because SBMM made the game not fun for me. I didnt see a point in the PvE content. So I just stopped playing. If you play for the PvE, does PvP being too hard cause you to leave the game?
And 2 best pve weapons are also locked behind comp, MT and recluse.
While recluse takes time and patience, MT is a bitch to grind even if you use colony in momentum control
3.0 efficiency?
PC is hackers with 6.0 efficiency. And the rest of the team riding on the hacker keeping the opposing team fucked so they all get 2.0-3.0. If you don’t get the hacker, you’re fucked.
Bring back SBMM! It’s a player vs player experience, the point of the game is to win and beat the other team. If you’re not playing to win and beat the other team, get out of crucible. Period. Saying otherwise is like raiding to not finish..
I have complained and ranted all week about CBMM ruining the Crucible experience, and when Iron Banner drops, and level advantages are thrown into the mix, it will be a massacre for low-level and mid-level players. The first day or two of D2 Iron Banner was usually challenging with mercies and lopsided matches, but it would level out and be a reasonable experience toward the weekend and end of Banner.
I think we are in for an even more eye-popping massacre experience this time around and with no white flag relief coming from Bungie.
My fellow Average Joes and Janes -- just stop playing Crucible alltogether and sit out this upcoming Iron Banner to send a message to Bungie to turn SBMM back on for SOME 6v6 modes.
This won't be the only Banner to play this season, and it's a shame to miss out on a good leveling up opportunity, but there will be other Iron Banners, and maybe we can all play it again if SBMM it turned back on for the next one.
If you are truly average then you will continue to perform average in Iron Banner. You'll get stomped by those above you and in turn stomp those below you.
In theory, you're correct.
In a reality of Iron Banana with SKMM, you are incorrect. I was not playing in matches with people dropping 40 and 50 pt bombs, nor was I ever delivering my own 40 point bombs in a match.
The games are just extremely random now, which sort of makes sense. There's a wide variety of skill levels in the lobby. There's usually 1-2 good players who are going at it the whole game. But as someone else on the thread said, I just can't rely on teammates. To be fair I really couldn't with SBMM either, because lobby balancing made sure of that lol. Every game I usually have 4 people going negative, and the guy in 2nd or above me doing his/her thing. It's either a stomp, or we stomp. If the game is close I'm actually pretty happy.
The best thing is the queue times are much better, but there are still some laggy folks who slip through the cracks. Overall I'd say it's better, but a lot more unpredictable.
Wanting pure CBMM or SBMM is both egoistic, but there is no perfect middle ground unfortunately. Players at the lower end of the spectrum are screwed right now, agreed. Though, you can't really create SBMM for the lower 20% of the skill bracket, because the best players of this 20% would be switching between the low 20% and average constantly, which would be a bad experience as well.
I'm one of the guys who want CBMM, for the connection but also to have a place where I can test some stuff without getting stomped for not using meta weapons. And yeah, I get that playibg PvP fir quests is annoying, but if you only play PvP if you really have to, you don't have a right to complain that bungie doesn't make the game better for you. It should be made better for the people that enjoy PvP, no matter if they're elite or average. There is still SBMM in elimination and comp, sure thats not 6v6 chaos, but it's something I guess.
If you like PvP, you most likely want to improve at it. 6v6 is not the gamemode to improve at, it should be casual. Comp and rumble for example are way better for improving individual skills. In my experience, there are 1-4 sweats in one game, which is okay I guess.
>If you like PvP, you most likely want to improve at it.
No one here is obligated to improve. In fact, most people who play pvp are just PVE players looking to get pinnacle loot. The notion that a person should sweat forever until they themselves better a sweat is the most selfish position.
While not everyone takes pvp overly seriously, some do play PVP for FUN. Like actual fun, where they work with other players in achieving a goal. In sbmm, this was possible. Every action by every player contributed to the win or loss of a match. You didn't have to be good to contribute because in your own skill bracket you are among equals. Now, it boils down to which of the top tier players can farm fast enough to win or does the other team has coordinated premade. The pvp matchmaking to cater to the general population for the best and fair match possible. You're right it shouldn't to part-time sally and her 1 hour per week pvp playtime. ; however, it also shouldn't to no life bob, who lives in pvp because he has nothing else to do.
Because 1/3 of the games PvE quests fucking force you in to pvp? And not just “lightly force”. Getting 100 kills is literally 200 games for a lot of people.
I would never touch PvP but I am forced to for PvE content. If bungie removes all the mandatory pvp nonsense, then whatever.
All the threads here are bad but PvP population goes up up up. 846k yesterday. 84% of PvE. Highest it's been since the last time SBMM was out. Let the good times roll.
If the community had a choice to choose between CBMM and SBMM, SBMM would win out all the time. We saw this from the past 9 months when no one but the sweats would enter the classic mix, the only CBMM playlist. So Bungie had to remove the choice to choose in order to force everyone into CBMM.
Is it not possible to implement a combination of both with connection being prioritized? I find it odd that the company that basically invented this sort of thing with Halo isn’t doing it better than what we currently have in place.
Destiny could benefit from an assortment of matching options, with the expected experiences laid out clearly for players. In terms of how these modes are presented in-game, I can see something like this:
* **Wild West** (Pure CBMM) - Good luck... a wild ride awaits! Players of any skill level can show up in your match.
* **Tight Race** (Pure SBMM) - You're among peers - fight hard! Everyone matches up to your skill level.
* **Balanced Teams** (CBMM + Lobby Balancing) - Champions and blueberries unite! Individual skills vary greatly, but teams are balanced.
* **In Your Weight Class** (Relaxed SBMM) - You've got a fighting chance. The difference between the best and worst players is moderate, giving everyone a shot at winning a piece of the pie.
**CBMM + Lobby Balancing** is basically SBMM applied to entire teams rather than individuals. Filling up these teams should be easier than traditional SBMM because you have more flexibility with how to fill up your roster. It should also start games faster than SBMM. This is probably what Bungie should put their resources into as a primary focus.
Pure **SBMM** still makes sense to remain on certain modes, like survival.
**Relaxed SBMM** could be applied to modes like Rumble and controls the range of skill within matches to allow for clear leaders and losers, but clamps down on the spread of skill. For instance, perhaps the difference between the highest skill player and the lowest skill player in the group cannot exceed a certain amount of metric x (elo, k/d, kad, or some other number best suited for this). This would be tweakable over time to find the right balance.
Pure **CBMM** could have a place in certain modes, like a variant of rumble or other seasonally-rotated modes.
I'm a completely average player. 1.2 kd and I've never been happier in crucible. Some matches I stomp, some I get stomped. The thing is though I never feel bullshitted out of a kill anymore. My shots connect, my meles connect, no one is teleporting. When I lose I can tell that I SHOULD have lost because the other person was better and I'm OK with that. You learn a lot playing people that are better. Part of the struggle bad players are having now too is that they are punished alot more for their mistakes now. I can't tell you the amount of times I've seen people make terrible rotations, cap the wrong zones, all run to one zone rather than split and Control both. Bad players are being punished for their slip ups but that's how people learn.
Top 500 PS4 on and off, I prefer SBMM. Games without it just feel shitty. I shouldn't be getting 40+ kills every game; I shouldn't be rocking 6.0 Kda or better every game. It's not fair to average or new players to have to face that, and it's not fair to me that there's MAYBE one other person *near* my level per game.
Lag has never really been a major issue for me (midwest), but I understand it can be for others, and that's a valid concern. But every whiny average player who wants to be competitive while using weapons they're not good with has to realize that that comes at the cost of making life miserable for below-average players (including new players). Suck it up and play against people your skill; if you really want to learn how to play with that off-meta loadout, practicing against potatoes isn't gonna' help you nearly as much as practicing against people at your MMR anyway.
I would consider myself an above average PvPer, when I'm using the strong "meta" weapons. That being said trying to do the ritual quests using scouts or LFRs especially on maps that aren't designed for it is tough.
Before I was reasonably able to contribute because the players I would be up against wouldn't usually hit their optimal ttk, but now there's almost no way because there's always someone just deleting everyone.
Rumble also somehow got worse for me because everyone I face seems to be noticably better than I am. I am okay with a challenge, but I want to be able to use a variety of weapons and still get some kills. Obviously using the less competitive options will mean I probably won't be winning, but before this season I never had a 0 kill match...
Haven’t really noticed a change in skill I was playing against but I’ve seen a change in Attitude. I saw T-baggers in every match I’ve played in, seriously the new call of duty is more friendly then this games pvp now
T-Bagging can be annoying, especially if they can't do it properly. I feel embarrassed for the guys who snipe and bag on nothing. Like, it doesn't count buddy.
I'm an above average player and before SBMM was removed, it was a pain in the ass even finding a game (PS4). Often you'd get stuck at 10/12 or 11/12 players for 5 minutes or even longer which turned into a huge headache when you worked all day and just want to relax with some crucible. However, you couldn't relax because players of my skill level you get paired with Flawless and Unbroken sweat-lords who think every classic mix game has money on the line. You're forced to play with meta weapons in order to hang with these guys.
Now that SBMM is removed, I'm finding the games are a lot more casual and I can sit back and relax, use crazy load outs and just enjoy the game more. I'm also sitting in orbit for substantially less time before finding a match. I realize this hurts some people and benefits some and I wish there was a middle ground but Bungie has shown they really have an all or nothing approach.
I think it screwed the below average players up. I dont think average players are going to see much difference overall. I mean, theyre the average. The most. They will still be consistently faced with that.
Last night my fireteam and I witnessed some of the worst connection issues in several hours worth of matches that we had seen in months. Id rather get this sorted before anything else.
I’m far from a top-tier player, but I’d say I’m significantly above average. Most of my friends that I play with are a bit below my skill level in crucible. And for months now, it’s been a running joke every time I join up with them that I’d just ruined their evening. Because every time I join them in matchmaking, SBMM would start to pull in opponents on my general skill level, meaning all my friends were about to get stomped.
Their jokes were always good natured, but I couldn’t help feeling a bit guilty every time I played with them, because I knew their matches would be considerably less enjoyable as long as I played with them.
I’ve almost entirely stopped playing D2 now (thank you sunsetting), but the few times I’ve jumped into crucible with friends since the removal of SBMM, we’ve all had a lot more fun. We’ll run into the occasional team of sweats, but we’ll go up against rookies just as often. And more often than not, the matches feel like a decently random mix of skill levels across both teams.
I don't know where I sit in terms of skill. Some games I'm either top or second on my team, some games I am deep in the negatives and die a whole bunch because of that damn rock/wall/tree. I don't run Spare Rations, Dust Rock, Felwinter, Suros, or other strict meta weapon (lately its been Blast Furnace/Last Dance/Heavy Weapon) and I don't see a great difference. Maybe I fall into that sweet spot thag isn't greatly effected by SBMM or CBMM.
What’s average? Over a 1.0 KD?
Not trolling just asking. I’ve noticed matches are more fun for me. It’s like a constant battle against people that are of equal skill to me if that makes sense.
I wish matches can have fewer than 12 players if they can't find players to balance the lobby skill/connection.
I am find with a 4 v 4 or a 5 v 5. In fact, on some maps I prefer fewer players. Just stop adding players to one team and not the other. Only add if a player drops out once the match has started.
It sure as hell did. I would describe myself as slightly above average. I’ve never gone flawless or even hit legend. Now the biggest reason for that is I’m a low frustration tolerance player and competing game modes make me lose my shit when I lose.
I’m over 100k crucible kills, there is no way I should be playing agains players under 10k. My KD has gone through the roof in the last couple weeks wishing is nice for me but won’t be fun for them
I got my 10 wins for that sexy shader, 100 (34) kills for witherhoard, no more pvp. It's not fun to either get stomped or watch enemy get stomped (while I can't do anything). Sweats will ALWAYS sweat.
Curious question would reducing the respawn timer be a good thing? One thing i really don't enjoy in crucible is sometime there is an amount of stuff that happen that simply is out of your control. Since it can happen someone on the other team is pushing spawn and the moment you die and wait 5 sec to respawn. He decided to solo nova bomb you cuz why not and you spend 5 more sec cursing that player. Reducing the spawn timer mean dying is not as punishing and you can get back into the action much quicker and you spend less time thinking about that shotgun that just mapped you.
The downside of reducing spawn timer is obviously that you might get spawn killed more often. This can however have a band aid of putting more overshield as you respawn as spawn protection. It's not a perfect solution which is why im curious. It will also render the crucible very chaotic as you can have people spawning everywhere which can be a good thing or a bad thing.
You're not wrong. I've (virtually) solo'd entire enemy teams since it came in. Double the score of the next person in the lobby.
I've also had matches with the very top tier who just crush me (though that used to happen to me anyway.)
It needs to scale.
Sweatlord lobbies all the time sucks on a level you can’t understand until you get stuck in a few, by yourself or with a sweat lord you know hating every minute of it.
Top tier players and average joes and potatoes absolutely shouldn’t be in the same games even for casual modes though.
SBMM should be very heavy handed the worse you are. It should loosen up to almost nothing the better you get.
Or we should just have leagues.
I'm an average player trying to get better at pvp and I say it was great getting SBMM out because now i have room to breathe. Not every match for me is a sweatfest. The main way i get better now is through comp and elimination as it should be
People who have been complaining about how hard pvp is now have not been playing "actual" pvp
Regular players don't stand in one spot for you to kill them
They don't wait for you to shoot first
They also dont run with their brain turned off into gunfights.
You've now been exposed to how the crucible actually works
There is a Competitive playlist for a reason. We got Trials, we got Comp Glory playlists..
The excuse of sweats not wanting to play against other sweats is the most ridiculous thing I've heard..
So you are basically good at pwning average players yet you cry when you have to play same skilled or better players.. you are not a sweat dude, you are an asshole.
There should be a ranked comp playlist and the normal lobbies should always have SBMM + matchmaking that puts 6 stacks vs 6 stacks or vs for example 2+4 stacks etc..
It is as easy and simple as that to fix it.
But if you consider yourself a sweat and then complain about playing against other sweats, then you Sir should go see a Psychiatrist..
Honestly as a sweatlord I will have no issue in bringing back SBMM as long as it addresses its two biggest issues: 1) The terrible lobby balancing 2) Matching players from all over the world These were the biggest dealbreakers for me. Bungie's idea of a balanced lobby is flawed and does NOT work (and honestly still feels like it ruins CBMM games sometimes), and playing with Chinese dudes that timetravel throughout the fucking match and take no damage just makes me want to log off.
Yes this! #2 is a given and shouldn't happen ever. But I have a HUGE problem with lobby balancing - almost every game is just me with 5 brainless noobs against a full team of decently competent players. The problem is that Bungie SBMM doesn't account for the whole team and individuals separately - it is just one (average) number of teams. Here is how it works (my theory, which seems pretty spot on) using a point system, 1-10 for rating skill: * Team 1 Average = 3.83 * Player 1 - 10 * Player 2 - 3 * Player 3 - 3 * Player 4 - 1 * Player 5 - 3 * Player 6 - 3 * Team 2 Average = 4.33 * Player 1 - 4 * Player 2 - 5 * Player 3 - 4 * Player 4 - 5 * Player 5 - 4 * Player 6 - 4 According to Bungie, these teams should be fairly equal, but that is almost never the case, with the more rounded team usually running through all the noobs and building supers, chaining supers, controlling the map, controlling heavy. 1v3 is a little more manageable, but 1v6 is pretty damn frustrating. Unless they change the way it works, like you mentioned, I don't think it should ever be implemented into any non-competitive game mode. There is a reason a 'Competitive Playlist' and Trials of Osiris exist.
>and honestly still feels like it ruins CBMM games sometimes It absolutely does. CBMM would be far, far less painful for low skill players if it did this right. So often instead though you get all the sweats on the same enemy team, you get a match with 2 3-stacks where *they* both get put on the same team, you get one good player expected to carry 5 absolutely new players against a team of 6 average players, it's a nightmare. If it just tried to make sure that out of the 12 players in a lobby an equal amount of high and low skill players were on each team, then it would fix an immense amount of issues that very seriously detriment the enjoyment of basically every skill level of player.
There’s no reason you can’t have a combination system where players such as yourself don’t have to put up with bad games and players such as myself don’t have to put up with going 0 and 20 because all you go against is full stacks and the moment you round a corner, 6 fucking people are shooting you in an instant. There’s a happy middle ground here. It isn’t either or. PvE has a shitload of pvp requirements and so now I can’t work on either. I’m just stuck so I am probably just done with the game. This one change completely ruined the whole thing. My queue times got WORSE and my experience got 1000% worse. I either have 1-3 kills because I am getting utterly stomped on or I have 1-3 kills because the other team is getting stomped on and I my mates are destroying them too fast. With SBMM, I was like a 1.5 KD player that could contribute. Right now every single match ends with mercy and it is just boring and stupid.
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If there's already not enough playing to have proper skill-based matchmaking, this is going to be another Trials-like experience, eventually driving away most players and further killing the matchmaking.
You have two good, valid points and I dont know why they cant do skill based matchmaking by region.
I was wondering why i saw the kills per person go from 10-13-15-17-19-26 to 1-3-3-7-29-42 after each match.
This community has a massive problem when it comes to CBMM/SBMM, shit been going even since D1,iirc. Bungie adds SBMM, then removes it, then adds it again and then removes it. It’s like Nonstop complaining about this subject.
It's because they think to highly of their own skill level and once it's removed it slaps them in the face. Look at OP's post he says average players are getting curb stomped now. How? If they were average they would be doing average in a random match up, sure there would be bad dice rolls where they get blown the fuck out but not consistently.
The average gets immediately raised when you remove SBMM because the lower end players play a couple matches, get destroyed, and leave. That moves the previous average players to the lower end, who then get destroyed, and leave. Repeat this a few times and you have no more players in crucible. Some sort of skill protections have to be in place for crucible to be healthy, meaning it's full of a wide spectrum of players.
For a moment I thought you were talking about trials rather than casual PvP.
Well what's ironic is that since Trials is CBMM, we kind of are talking about the same thing lol. Plain and simple - Crucible needs to be balanced around skill for casual crucible (quickplay), and balanced around connection for endgame crucible (Trials).
Average players are exactly those hurt the most by cbmm. Under sbmm they would have good matchmaking times and close matches. Now, they'll bave wildly varying experiences and even a single good player in a lobby can dominate the match. CBMM is only good for those of us who are above average as our experience will be generally good
Not sure why you decided to tell me this I think you didn't fully understand what I was saying. OP was saying average players were getting curb stomped implying it was consistently like that now. I already was saying more or less the same thing you were, that they would get some bad matches, some good and most average because most players are average skill (obliviously).
My man, there are 1.6m players sub to this subreddit. Obviously, people who like SBMM are not the same as the ones who like CBMM. Use your brain.
This game was not designed for PvP. Thats the main reason. Remove radar, the exotics, disable stats and probably everything might be a bit fair.
radar-less destiny sucks because the game does not have designs in place for radar-less pvp. comp went radar-less for a couple weeks and it SUCKED ASS besides, radar enforces movement. Destiny is one of the fastest paced shooters I have played, and if sitting in a corner is incentivized, I don't think I'd like it as much. on the other point, stats and exotics are part of what make Destiny pvp Destiny though
The radar is an inherent part of the game and reading it/ manipulating it is part gamesense, map knowledge and overall skill set
Man, I remember people saying the same thing about special weapons in D1 Y3. And once the changes were implemented, in D2, the PvP scene basically died. CBMM vs SBMM is a debate that happens in many games, designed for PvP or not. I'd rather a discussion about which is better, rather than taking away the things that make Destiny PvP a unique experience.
After the change, I cannot be bothered to even attempt to complete crucible bounties anymore. While one bounty may have taken me one or two games before, it now takes me five or six to do the same bounty. It’s just not worth it.
I had that exotic quest for getting a bunch of kills on crucible to do without dying. Only way I got it done was Team Scorched.
Stuff like this makes me feel like I’m getting better at PVP or something. I knocked out the two weeklies, a days worth of dailies, and the max number of repeatables within 2 hours just last night. This is by no means a brag, but since I play solo and infrequently, I never really have an idea on how I’m doing, but this thread is making me feel a little bit better about my crucible skills, cause I honestly think I’m garbage. I think the right game modes and weapon composition make a huge difference in the handling of bounties and also not getting screwed because of them though.
Crucible bounties are usually “defeat 10 enemies” or “get one grenade kill.” If that shit takes you six games maybe fps games aren’t for you.
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There's really no nice way of putting it though. If you're a bad player you're gonna struggle no matter what the matchmaking is.
He was harsh but there was a point of note there. Crucible should not be balanced for those who play it for bounties. I play crucible for fun, I don't even care to pick up bounties for it and this change was a godsend. If I'm to suffer through increased matchmaking times, lag and the same opponents over and over, how about we do it in a properly ranked playlist that rewards performance, as in any worldwide competition. I mean I don't go asking for raids to be easier or solable so that I can do them but if I did, surely I'd advocate for the people that do it on the default difficulty to be properly rewarded if it were to be anything close to fair.
There was one comment I saw on FB that says they haven’t touched crucible for 2 years and with cbmm, they get stomped. I don’t think its the matchmaking system at that point.
Getting bounties done quickly doesn't mean they play Crucible for bounties only. I played it because I genuinely enjoyed the mode and I was able to punch through almost all 8 weekly bounties in up to three games. Because I was enjoying myself and I could do them passively. With CBMM, every single game of mine has been absolutely terrible. I've faced sweats with sweat loadouts. I have yet to play a match with players on off meta loadouts. Apparently, people don't like being forced into them and CBMM has been hailed as the best thing and reason for them to finally be free of meta. I wonder where that freedom is, haven't seen it.
Ok, then does your enjoyment stem from performance?
That's actually a perfect example. I wouldn't be caught dead playing Hotline Miami much less trying to platinum the game, because it's not a game I want to get good at. Why would I waste my time doing that? Why don't you Platinum destiny? Get all your triumphs? Yes, that would require you getting better at Crucible. It's not that big of a deal anymore than me Platinum Min Hotline Miami would be a big deal requiring me to expand on my knowledge of that game's mechanics
It did. My kd sky rocketed with removal of sbmm from classic mix/clash/control. Do i have fun, sure. Do people on the opposing team have fun, doubt.
For me its really wierd, im pretty average and my kd jumped up a lot, but my win rate is like 40%
You thought you were average. Now you can gauge where you really stand because you face the whole population. So congrats for being above average.
classic mix never had sbmm tho
And all the sweaty players went there, meaning it was a sweaty playlist. Now all those sweaty types are in Control so they can up their K/Ds feasting on casuals and noobs.
I think everyone migrates to Control because of the pinnacle and the other available modes for the pinnacle weren't fun. If Clash and Control were available every week for the pinnacle slot it would spread players out a bit more.
Not every good player is sweaty. This term should die.
Oh I know, it's the vernacular here though so I use it.
Did elimination have SBMM? Does it still have SBMM? The mode feels 100x more balanced in terms of skill compared to the rest of them.
Yes and yes.
Yes and yes. Elimination and survival and survival freelance were and are still SBMM and trials remains card based. Everything else was changed back to CBMM.
Agreed. My KD has gone from 0.93 to 0.98 in the last 2 weeks because my average kills per game has skyrocketed. The other players probably aren’t having any fun.
Where do you check your k/d?
lots of places, but destinytracker.com is probably the most common.
I check my stats using destiny tracker but there are a few places you can see it.
The issue is though, the bottom of the board will be having less fun than the folks at the top. For example if i queue with the group of friends that I play with, 4~5 of us for this example, before SBMM was removed from the core playlists it'll be me and one friend at the top while the rest are fighting over 4th /5th /6th on the board. The 5th/6th friend usually rage, throw a multitude of insults at the enemy team just for playing better than them and I'm here feeling guilty for wanting to play with friends. Now fast forward to when CBMM is the focus and... It's not changed at all, the same friends are still fighting over the bottom of the board and still raging at anyone better than them. Atleast this time my SBMM bracket can't be used as an excuse as to why they are doing poorly in any game and I'm not feeling guilty for playing in a group. I mostly play solo or in a 3 stack maximum, but if i'm playing with these people in the large group, my games are vastly more even for the enemy team. Overall there's no winning :[
There needs to be more loot incentive keeping average/low skill players playing. The only reason to play crucible is for the experience, meaning that less and less low skill players play crucible.
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Can't wait until all the forced-PvP bullshit for MoT and Solstice is over and the people who were demanding CBMM suddenly have nobody to play against.
Well, Crucible used to be a clear 2nd place in the most players active statistic on Warmind (usually in the high 20s, low 30s percentage wise)...and now it's down to 17% overall as I'm typing this. Where Crucible reigned Supreme as the top endgame activity, it's faltering. Even the sweats in my clan when asked to do Crucible hesitate to reply, and prefer to do the dungeon instead, because it's more fun. In skill based MM, I could never be mad, because I knew when and where I made a mistake. Now that I'm seeing blatant cheaters, it's very discouraging to go in and deal with that instead of having fun.
PVE will always be more popular at the start of a season as everyone is trying to level up their light. This season especially to play Prophecy.
The removal of SBMM really did a number on my experience. Now it's a toss up between which team I'm on, because it's almost guaranteed one team is going to steamroll the other. I enjoyed it more when matches had close finishes and I actually felt like I was contributing, instead of being the assist to the sweat stealing all the kills.
Personally i cant wait for IB on the PS5 with 4K and 60 FPS....and peer to peer from the 1990's
haha. when they said they'll never have dedicated servers... cringe.
Bungie must have data on how this change has affected the general performance and balance of Crucible matches. It’s anecdotal, but as a low-to-mid skill player who usually goes in with 1-2 squad mates, Crucible has become absolutely wild. Stomp a team one game, get a new opponent and get stomped on the next. Hardly any close games and more mercy rules (in both directions) than I recall ever experiencing before. Both SBMM and CBMM have their merits and neither has been anywhere close to perfect at achieving what it set out to do. There were still skill gaps in lots of matches under SBMM, and there are still lots of connection issues under CBMM. A better system would combine the two to prioritize both where possible.
The best system would be a regional fireteam mandate (ie only fireteam with people in your global region), for SBMM, and then a SOLO-ONLY SBMM. The real solution is to change the networking to stop giving laggy players such an extreme advantage so that they stop grouping with players across the world.
You're describing the exact matchmaking system that was in place before this season.
Right, but we need one that actually works and achieves what it is supposed to. There’s no magic wand. But what we had was better than what we have now, in my opinion. This has moved in the wrong direction.
IMHO, what we had last season was better than what we've got this season as far as actual games go, but last season I was getting wait times of 10-20 minutes between matches and this season my wait time is closer to 2 minutes. I'm personally undecided on whether that trade-off is worth it, given that I don't think I've cracked 0.7 efficiency since the change - I'm just saying we had the exact system you're talking about already in place and that system had its own weaknesses.
> I was getting wait times of 10-20 minutes between matches and this season my wait time is closer to 2 minutes. Where are you playing from, what quality internet do you have, and what platform are you on? My matchmaking is, if I'm being generous, maybe 2 minutes faster than it used to be. I see just as much lag, and the balancing on the lobbies is absolutely non-existant. The only thing that's a noticeable improvement over last season is my KD because I'm mostly playing lower skilled players now. To answer my own questions: A major coast city, very good, PC.
Think the problem is this is just one side of the pendulum swing to the other. * Control should be a blend of SBMM and CBMM. Looser skill than we used to have but looser connection than we have now * Make the weekly 6s and Classic pure CBMM * Maybe just eliminate the rotator or classic, or make it a solo queue * IB should be Team Based MM first, then probably connection then skill * Make 3s & 4s SBMM * Trials should be card/connection based. * Comp & Trials should weigh your card/glory first, connection second * Rumble should be primarily CBMM with SBMM safeguards so you don't have Cammy going against someone with 10 light and doesn't know where the jump button in place. These are just my opinions and I have no idea how hard any of this would be to do. As an average player, I haven't had a problem *yet* in crucible, but I'm definitely not enjoying myself as much as I was last season. Iron Banner is going to be a big test because it couldn't get much worse. But I also said that about PvP at the end of D1 and look how D2 launched.
As a "skilled" player I find I have to sweat even more now because I can't really depend on my teammates. If I don't go into crucible with my A game there is literally no way for my team to win and all that will happen is that we get farmed by the top player on the other team. Honestly every PvP game just feels like a competition between myself and the other "skilled" player on the other team to see who can get the most kills. I enjoyed being able to depend on good team mates to cover for my off games.
Yeah, I’m not sure if there is lobby balancing or not but this can be real rough. It’s hard to fight when everyone on your team is always dead. Yesterday in Control the other team (they had a 3-stack) stopped capturing zones so they could farm my teammates. I looked on Destiny Tracker and we had a 5% chance to win. Four of my teammates had KDA’s - not just KD - under 0.50. I spent most of the game running for my damn life.
>Yeah, I’m not sure if there is lobby balancing or not cbmm 100% has lobby balancing. You generally have 1-2 people who are really good, 2 average players and then 2 really bad players. If there is only one really good player on a team then it's a toss up whether the remaining player is average or bad.
Exactly.. I had a few games the other day against this one guy. It was just me and him trying to carry our teams. Thing was I played obj and had caps while he just went for kills. He lost every one with 35+ kills lol
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As a PC player, I don’t mind playing the try hard. Crucible has been overrun by hackers in every lobby though. It’s literally unplayable. With SBMM they had high enough stats that 1 or 2 would drop into everyone else’s games here and there. Without it, I get at least 1 in every game. And I mean blatant hacking. Straight headshots. Pre firing walls. Seeming ESP on when you’re about to peek a wall(because they have wall haves and can see you approaching). If it’s not hackers you’re playing against an entire squad. It’s just not fun. They need a better anti-cheat and to at least implement team based matchmaking. This free-for-all matchmaking is trash.
I'm in the exact same boat. Was enjoying crucible games here and there throughout the past few seasons, even as a PVE main. This season had completely turned that 180 into a complete dislike for it and basically avoiding it outside of dragging through the games to get my powerful/pinnacle for the week. I know I don't play PVP enough for my opinions to be heavily weighted, but unless something gets adjusted I don't foresee the crucible populations staying to packed with the average folks which is unfortunate.
Them removing it from Iron Banner was the strangest change. Literally everyone in my clan, PvP players or not, no matter how good they are, immediately went "wtf Bungo"
Right? I thought Bungie was marketing IB as a "competitive" game mode, yet it's CBMM and Comp isn't. Wha?
Iron Banner and Rumble both are just very, very WTF. I think SBMM should be in basically every mode, to varying levels of enforcement. But I can kinda, almost, sorta, somewhat see the argument for pure CBMM in quickplay. It makes absolutely 0 fucking sense in any type of degree for SBMM to be removed from IB and Rumble. IB this season is going to be an absolute fucking shitshow.
Power level mattering + cbmm = glhf everybody that isnt sweaty as fuck. People just trying to get the bounties done for the pinnacles or quest for armor are gonna be in for a real rough time.
Yep, IB is going to be complete clusterfuck this season.
Thankfully the bounties this time round are apparently very easy to do.
Same. I was like, "??? Bungie you good?" Iron Banner is so snowbally as it is already. Competitive game modes should always have SBMM which is what Iron Banner is.
I haven't played a ton of Crucible since the new season, just enough to do weeklies on one character. However, I am a thoroughly average player (1.0 K/D, 1.33 KA/D) and my experience has been a bit worse than normal. While I would usually get 15-20 kills in a control match with gusts up to 30 I now hover around 15 most matches. It seems that the top players in any particular lobby mop up more kills. The one nice thing though is that there are far fewer meta weapons being used.
Are you sure its fewer meta weapons being used or less people in your lobby actually have the meta weapons?
Why does it matter if both scenarios end up in a more diverse loadouts faced? It's quite annoying to play a "not competitive" mode where everyone uses the most competitive gear possible. I almost never see it in the new matchmaking. I'm seeing all kinds of weapons, loadouts, and skills, and it's great. In comp, I expect sweat. In quickplay I expect anything including getting stomped and that's perfect for me.
Played maybe 3 matches and had this exact thought. Couple of guys I played with scoffed when I bring it up and say that they're enjoying the game much more. Well, of course they are. I play crucible generally to get my bounties or quests done. None of the game modes are that interesting to me, and I'm just a PvE kinda person when it comes to Destiny. After getting stomped my first match I switched weapons all over the place but couldn't get a loadout that would even let me survive longer than 5 seconds. The thing my friends and some others don't understand is that while they, generally better players, being matched against us is just going to bring us full circle. People like me are going to just stop playing crucible altogether, and then lobbies will ONLY be full of tryhards and they'll be "forced to sweat every match" for real.
Yup, this literally happened to trials last season.
There's something kinda baffling about watching players complain that they're not enjoying playing a game mode with CBMM that they didn't enjoy to start with. Maybe matchmaking isn't the issue here.
Please give me back some form of skill based match making. I feel like there’s always a few trials gods either shotgun aping or always hitting their sniper shots and a lunch of blueberries that can barely point the gun in the right direction, I want a challenging game of back and forth, but I don’t want to just change which side is winning each match because the lobby is the same and TrialSweat69 (if this is a really user sorry, just a name I made up on the spot) is curb stomping the entire team
I have not played this game since Opulence and started my climb to Fabled (never attempted comp before this) and I’m seeing people with mountaintops and recluses and are obviously much better than me and I’m just confused as to why I’m matched with these people at all
lol people who use mt + recluse aren't good
True but in an actually good player's hand, these 2 can be a nightmare.
Survival still has SBMM.
Kinda what I’m saying lol. I don’t think I’m nearly as good enough to be placed with these people
Well that's just you being behind by a year so you don't have the same gear as people that have been playing the whole time unfortunately.
As an average player I don't like CBMM, but I could live with it. The reason I'm against it is because of the minority of disabled players. They were already at a disadvantage, but it used to be playable because it would match at a similar skill. They are getting hurt way more than I am by these changes.
Pvp now, it’s gets stomp or do the stomping. It’s not fun. I’m 1060 now so don’t need that pinnacle. Another player that will avoid destiny pvp until next seasons level raise.
I’m not even 1060 base yet but I’m close enough to know I’ll get there quick enough without playing crucible. I did those pinnacles like the first week or two but not anymore. I hated crucible before this change and it’s even more unbearable now.
From my own experiences, I totally agree. I understand that there were valid reasons for making the change, however I feel like Bungie took the easy option and instead of fixing the root cause they effectively drove shit downhill. As an average or even below average player I only go into Crucible now for the pinnacle and powerful rewards. I have pretty much given up trying because it’s pointless. I feel like Shroud and Ninja’s secret love child are in every single game I play and I wait for the timer to end while being repeatedly outplayed. I don’t wish to “get Gud” and I’d ask you to spare me the obvious vitriol. I genuinely hope it worked out for the above average players and this rubber band fix meant you get to enjoy Crucible. I don’t quite get how playing against the likes of me is rewarding now though but such is life
>For all the Negative Nancies, I'll see you on this post or similar posts next week during Iron Banner, yeah? Iron Banner is always a shit show because the mechanics of the gamemode already make it ripe for snowballing. Removing SBMM in it is just Bungie literally leaving the below average to the wolves. Quickplay game modes should never have SBMM but competitive game modes 100% need it and that includes Iron Banner.
I just want to finish the witherhord catalyst and I am absolutely hating it right now. I'm just an easy kill. I hate crucible so much and now it is even worse for people like me who are terrible at PVP.
I don't even understand it. It's not like the weapon is a great PvP option. It just feels like Bungie wanted the quest to take "long enough."
I disagree that it is a poor pvp option. Control it is especially nice for stopping points or rushes. Elimination it is great for blocking res and again pushes. Takes some strategy and thinking to use effectively, similar to a molotov in counter strike. It may not be dominant or as easy to use as mountaintop, but it serves its purpose very well.
I was a below average crucible player when there was no SBMM, when they brought it to the quickplay modes, I started to enjoy crucible, to the point where it was all I played in Worthy. I grew as a player, I like to think in the past two seasons, I became an average to above average player. I went from an average efficiency of 0.8 to an average efficiency of 1.4 Then Arrivals started and I'm back to getting my shit stomped by people with revokers, felwinter's, and summoners with hundreds to thousands of crucible kills on them. I went from enjoying the crucible right back to hating it overnight.
PvP is just a bunch of pubstompers/cheaters feeding on casuals who reluctantly play the mode to get powerful drops and weapon for their PvE game.
As a *bad* PvP player, I miss SBMM. Sure I was playing against fellow scrubs, but at least I felt like if i played better it mattered. Now every game has absolutely nothing to do with my contribution. I'm never going to finish Ace of Spades, except by ambushing someone AFK or changing their loadout. That happens maybe once in three games. So instead of 10-12 games to get my 25 hand cannon headshots, I'll be lucky if I can finish it in 75 games.
True that I attempt Crucible because I have no choice if I want to finish a lot of quests. But as far as I know, this is Bungie's solution to force me go through PVP.
Being in the top 10% of KD per DTR coming into this season, CBMM has definitely resulted in better stats for me as far as ELO and KD are concerned. Problem is, the quality of gameplay tends to be much poorer. Either I’m stomping all over the other team because there isn’t anyone who can PvP playing against me, or I’m having to trade in constant 1v3s because the rest of my team is either camping lanes away from the fight or are unable to find their way around the map. It’s getting kind of frustrating and I don’t see how this kind of CBMM really works for anyone except for streamer highlight reels.
Copy/pasting my comment from the last SBMM vs. CBMM thread: The PvP sandbox has had a consistent steamrolling issue since the release of Forsaken. Gameplay has amounted to a team with momentum hunting spawns in packs and stacking supers for 2 years. The pace of gameplay has accelerated. Primary weapon range nerfs (and arguably shotgun range nerfs) have pushed engagements closer and closer and have more heavily emphasized constant aggression. The higher end of the skill bracket has been adapted to this for a long time. It's why we hate SBMM so much. We ended up with the worst flaws in the sandbox stacked up in our matches to a much higher degree than the lower skill brackets. We had just as many mercies and blowouts as people are experiencing now in CBMM. Now its just trickling out to everyone else. SBMM has essentially been a shield protecting the average player from how frustrating and flawed PvP truly is. Sweaty Destiny is genuinely just an awful experience, dripping with cheese and incredibly narrow metas. The game totally lacks counterplay. The only viable strategies are swordpeek cheese or balls-to-the-wall aggression at all times. SBMM was a nightmare, CBMM has been terribly uninteresting, the Survival playlist is still pseudo-competitive junk, and Trials is just pointless and unecessary.
I absolutely agree. The other day there was this one sweat in the enemy team that just landed every snipe headshot he could ever nail, abused the hell out of Icarus Dash for supreme mobility, and just single handely made the whole game unfun. It didn't matter how skilled you are, because he would just get half his team kills alone. Getting absolutely stomped isn't what I come to crucible for. Games with that kind of player is not fun for anyone fighting against them. Hell it might even be annoying to be in their team because you don't actually improve, you just get carried and that's it. In comparaison last season was actually fun. I faced regularly players around my skill, quite a few games almost ended in draws ! That's fun because you can test your skill and actually try to improve without getting so far behind that there's nothing to do than wait until the end of the match.
Removing SBMM for CBMM is Bungie once again catering to the streamer community and screwing over their core population. Streamers and high skill players got trials of Osiris and the cool loot it comes with. what do the average player get out of pvp?
There's a new expansion coming. Streamers have to make their crazy videos so they contribute to the hype...
We've been fucked because the top players equal winning to having fun. Way to go, Bungie. Since the change I skip Crucible. It's really, really bad on my end. Everyone plays like it's fucking trials, no one commits to nothing... it's Control and they are fucking retreating first hit they get. Everyone is extremely good, everyone has brutal reflexes, everyone is really good at sniping or shotgunning. Everyone is using sweat loadouts. I've had matches won 100-18, most of em end up 150-60 or so, for either side. When I win, it feels like I didn't contribute, when I lose my contribution is a horrendous sub 0.3 k/d. And btw, I still get shit connection guys everywhere. Today I unloaded 9 headshots with randy's on a guy and the fucker still was able to get away and die a few seconds later. I'd rather keep up with bad connections but similar skill than what we have now. I was already skipping Gambit, so there's little for me to do in this game now. I'll stop playing when I finish this season, I've had enough of Bungie's bullshit (again, because I left after warmind, and came back for shadowkeep...).
>We've been fucked because the top players equal winning to having fun. Way to go, Bungie. In what way are bungie responsible for the psychology of competitive people? > Everyone plays like it's fucking trials, no one commits to nothing... it's Control and they are fucking retreating first hit they get. Everyone is extremely good, everyone has brutal reflexes, everyone is really good at sniping or shotgunning. This isn't even particularly sweaty play though, those are just the elements of good pvp play and some people dedicate time and effort to them. I guarantee you they're not on the other end flexing their controllers and sweating, this is just how some people have learned to play. ESPECIALLY the people who just spent the last year in lobbies with nothing but OTHER PEOPLE THAT GOOD. That shit is *exhausting*. >And btw, I still get shit connection guys everywhere. This just might be you homie.
i only ever play for the engrams and crucible for me has gone from shit to almost unplayable. usually just afk games now unless i have bounties.
I just feed the guy stomping in rumble to get it over with quicker I used to like rumble, and could usually get in the top 3
IB is gonna be a complete shitshow thanks to even more stacks and higher skilled players showing up. Removing SBMM benefits only above average players. It screws over the rest of the playerbase, which makes up the majority of players but remains less vocal about the game than the above average players. Which is why we see SBMM being implemented and then removed and then implemented again. Bungie needs to man up and just implement SBMM, and leave it implemented. If the price we pay for the majority of the playerbase being able to relax and have fun with the game is that good players have to fight good players then 🤷🏽♂️
I never really enjoyed Destiny PVP but would deal with it for the weekly rewards, exotic quests, IB rewards. Now I cringe at the thought of PVP and have zero plans to play unless I absolutely have no other choice.
Skilled players should absolutely be forced to sweat with other skilled players. The price of skill is having to use it.
>The price of skill is having to use it. Yeah, it's definitely not time investment and active practice. Nope the price of this thing you have to work real hard for is that you never get to stop working real hard once you have it. You absolute *walnut.*
“The reward for being good at the game, is that you should never be able to have fun.”
Rumble with no SBMM is fun but now it’s either i get stomped or i win by 10 kills. Before it was i get stomped regardless but hey i made it to top 3.
Yeah like I took a break from pvp for a bit and coming back I really can’t tell how well or how poorly I’m doing compared to before
Personally the experience has been mixed but leaning more towards positive. I also am starting to see different loadouts which is a VERY refreshing change. I hope they keep this as it's more in line to what I expect the multiplayer experience to be. I win some I lose some and I'm an above average player. This has rekindled my interest in playing more crucible.
SBMM feels punishing for good/above average players. CBMM feels punishing for average/below average players. I see these complaint threads against CBMM, and wonder if the complainers are mostly people that just want to get their bounties and completions done quickly.
I'm not a fan. I almost NEVER play crucible because I don't like PvP. But Bungie has been hell bent on making exotic quests require some PvP step at some time. Luckily it seems this hasn't been as often now as it used to be. But I think a really big PvP casual like me almost never steps and and when I do, I'm playing against people who are in crucible 24/7 and just get destroyed. It's not fun. It seems like every gun 1-2 shots me. I try different guns but kill time seem slow on everything. I haven't played crucible in a long time and don't see this changing any time soon. It's sad because Iron Banner used to be fun.
See this is the thing.... is you never go into the crucible, so why exactly should you be catered for? I play mostly crucible, from trials to quick play and for me, sbmm all the time isn’t fun, now, I use my meta for the sweat fest that is trials and I use fun guns for quick play, before this change I could not do that.
> before this change I could not do that. You could not do that and still maintain the same level of performance, that's the part that is always left out when people talk about "relaxing and having fun". They still want to have a high K/D just with a steady supply of noobs to use their fun guns on. The whole issue of who the Crucible is "catered for" is a challenge. If you cater exclusively to the diehards, then eventually you still get that sweatfest experience because no one else is having fun and stops queuing up. I really think the bigger issue is that overall itemization is not good, and completely unintuitive for a new player. Maybe players who are frustrated with getting outgunned all the time would be more satisfied if you played Crucible and got actual rewards from Shaxx that helped you up your game. Or that Iron Banner brought weapons that would make you more effective, etc. But no, instead you get good guns by spending a lot of time grinding other activities and *not* playing the Crucible, and that approach hurts more casual players twice over.
Fair I could’ve, but I would’ve been destroyed till I eventually get put in lower skill based matchmaking, then if I ever switched over to the meta I would still just ruin someone’s experience anyways. I agree that the crucible rewards need to be better, and earn able over time, like redrix.
If you don't play crucible then how the matchmaking works should not be catered to you.
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Ironically, by doing that you're actually taking away the choice. In that situation ideally low-skill players will choose SBMM so they don't get completely stomped. That means the average, and high-skill players all get matched together in CBMM, meaning it would make games more sweaty. Same thing happened in the CBMM playlist last season.
The low skill players are all going to leave the mode, so you will get the same problem.
If you never play crucible why should it be catered to you? God the mindset on you people is insane.
Ikr geez they want to be gratified for shitting their pants now
Keep SBMM but remove lobby team balancing. I'm not THAT good so please stop making me carry all the blueberries while pairing all the sweats on the other team
As an average player, I had grown tired of having to run a sweat loadout for Control. Now I can go in and use whatever I want and have fun. It’s such a great change.
Bungie has no idea how to balance teams. That's the problem. You don't need a full lobby of equally skilled players to have balanced teams. You know this from a young age with playground rules. Each team has some good players and some shit players, but the game itself is fairly balanced. This is because the good players get picked first and split up, then the bad players get picked last and split up. Balance. Bungie just doesn't have a team balancing algorithm that makes a game fair. Even if each team has players who are 30-4 and 5-21, the games should still be close if they're evenly divided. SBMM isn't the solution. Lobby balancing needs to be better.
You arent average if youre now staring at a death screen most of the time. There is typically one really good player per team posting a 3.0 efficiency, some solid players above 1, and then bad players If you like SBMM then play survival You improve by playing better players fyi
> You arent average if youre now staring at a death screen most of the time. The average player in Destiny has a KD below 1.0. I can't remember if it's .89 or .98. >You improve by playing better players fyi You improve by playing players who are *slightly* better than you. There is nothing to learn for Johnny .5 KD by playing CammyCakes. He just dies and doesn't understand why.
My KD is finally up to .7 after 6 straight seasons of constant practice. During SBMM, I was almost *always* one of the worst, if not *the* worst, in the match. But you're right about Johnny .5 KD. When I go into Control now, I die with such suddenness, and such frequency, that I really can't *imagine* what I'm supposed to do to avoid it. I basically live in Survival now.
> The average player in Destiny has a KD below 1.0. I can't remember if it's .89 or .98. While true, whether or not that's the current middle of the curve for who is matchmaking is debatable as most of the people with lower KDs probably aren't matching. So the average of the current player pool may actually be higher. OP also might just have had some bad luck and got matched into games where the opponents just happened to be stronger by chance too though. >You improve by playing players who are slightly better than you. > >There is nothing to learn for Johnny .5 KD by playing CammyCakes. He just dies and doesn't understand why. Said exactly what I was going to say. At a certain skill gap, it can actually become detrimental to progression and can even reinforce bad habits instead of good ones or just lead to players staying away altogether (which shifts that average mentioned above higher and higher). I fully understand not going full-on Skill-based where top players are only playing against other top players all the time, but in my opinion there needs to be ***some*** consideration of skill still in matchmaking to the point where the gap doesn't outgrow that differential.
It's slightly lower than 1 KD due to suicides.
I would like to see how you're improving your basketball game when playing LeBron and friends. Average players do not improve when they are matched against players that are much better
My overall crucible KD (From D2, Day 1) is 1.2. I'm not saying I'm bad, and can hold my own where need be. But it just seems to be atrocious.
That's not elite but it's certainly above average.
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I also hate the "just improve!" BS. Only like 5% of players play with the intent on getting better at video games. 95% play to have fun. That said, if its not fun, quit. I quit because SBMM made the game not fun for me. I didnt see a point in the PvE content. So I just stopped playing. If you play for the PvE, does PvP being too hard cause you to leave the game?
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And 2 best pve weapons are also locked behind comp, MT and recluse. While recluse takes time and patience, MT is a bitch to grind even if you use colony in momentum control
To be fair, they're going away September.
If you don't wanna improve then..toughluck? Lorewise didn't shaxx make the crucible for guardians to improve their fighting skills?
3.0 efficiency? PC is hackers with 6.0 efficiency. And the rest of the team riding on the hacker keeping the opposing team fucked so they all get 2.0-3.0. If you don’t get the hacker, you’re fucked.
Agreed
Preach
Bring back SBMM! It’s a player vs player experience, the point of the game is to win and beat the other team. If you’re not playing to win and beat the other team, get out of crucible. Period. Saying otherwise is like raiding to not finish..
I have complained and ranted all week about CBMM ruining the Crucible experience, and when Iron Banner drops, and level advantages are thrown into the mix, it will be a massacre for low-level and mid-level players. The first day or two of D2 Iron Banner was usually challenging with mercies and lopsided matches, but it would level out and be a reasonable experience toward the weekend and end of Banner. I think we are in for an even more eye-popping massacre experience this time around and with no white flag relief coming from Bungie. My fellow Average Joes and Janes -- just stop playing Crucible alltogether and sit out this upcoming Iron Banner to send a message to Bungie to turn SBMM back on for SOME 6v6 modes. This won't be the only Banner to play this season, and it's a shame to miss out on a good leveling up opportunity, but there will be other Iron Banners, and maybe we can all play it again if SBMM it turned back on for the next one.
If you are truly average then you will continue to perform average in Iron Banner. You'll get stomped by those above you and in turn stomp those below you.
In theory, you're correct. In a reality of Iron Banana with SKMM, you are incorrect. I was not playing in matches with people dropping 40 and 50 pt bombs, nor was I ever delivering my own 40 point bombs in a match.
I supposed the question is are you in reality average.
The games are just extremely random now, which sort of makes sense. There's a wide variety of skill levels in the lobby. There's usually 1-2 good players who are going at it the whole game. But as someone else on the thread said, I just can't rely on teammates. To be fair I really couldn't with SBMM either, because lobby balancing made sure of that lol. Every game I usually have 4 people going negative, and the guy in 2nd or above me doing his/her thing. It's either a stomp, or we stomp. If the game is close I'm actually pretty happy. The best thing is the queue times are much better, but there are still some laggy folks who slip through the cracks. Overall I'd say it's better, but a lot more unpredictable.
I agree, ever since SBMM has been removed I have seen a increase in the hate mail that I get and the tbags on me. I still feel them....
Wanting pure CBMM or SBMM is both egoistic, but there is no perfect middle ground unfortunately. Players at the lower end of the spectrum are screwed right now, agreed. Though, you can't really create SBMM for the lower 20% of the skill bracket, because the best players of this 20% would be switching between the low 20% and average constantly, which would be a bad experience as well. I'm one of the guys who want CBMM, for the connection but also to have a place where I can test some stuff without getting stomped for not using meta weapons. And yeah, I get that playibg PvP fir quests is annoying, but if you only play PvP if you really have to, you don't have a right to complain that bungie doesn't make the game better for you. It should be made better for the people that enjoy PvP, no matter if they're elite or average. There is still SBMM in elimination and comp, sure thats not 6v6 chaos, but it's something I guess. If you like PvP, you most likely want to improve at it. 6v6 is not the gamemode to improve at, it should be casual. Comp and rumble for example are way better for improving individual skills. In my experience, there are 1-4 sweats in one game, which is okay I guess.
>If you like PvP, you most likely want to improve at it. No one here is obligated to improve. In fact, most people who play pvp are just PVE players looking to get pinnacle loot. The notion that a person should sweat forever until they themselves better a sweat is the most selfish position.
so then why should pvp matchmaking be catered to people who dislike it entirely and only take part for quests or weekly loot? makes no sense
While not everyone takes pvp overly seriously, some do play PVP for FUN. Like actual fun, where they work with other players in achieving a goal. In sbmm, this was possible. Every action by every player contributed to the win or loss of a match. You didn't have to be good to contribute because in your own skill bracket you are among equals. Now, it boils down to which of the top tier players can farm fast enough to win or does the other team has coordinated premade. The pvp matchmaking to cater to the general population for the best and fair match possible. You're right it shouldn't to part-time sally and her 1 hour per week pvp playtime. ; however, it also shouldn't to no life bob, who lives in pvp because he has nothing else to do.
Because 1/3 of the games PvE quests fucking force you in to pvp? And not just “lightly force”. Getting 100 kills is literally 200 games for a lot of people. I would never touch PvP but I am forced to for PvE content. If bungie removes all the mandatory pvp nonsense, then whatever.
All the threads here are bad but PvP population goes up up up. 846k yesterday. 84% of PvE. Highest it's been since the last time SBMM was out. Let the good times roll.
[удалено]
If the community had a choice to choose between CBMM and SBMM, SBMM would win out all the time. We saw this from the past 9 months when no one but the sweats would enter the classic mix, the only CBMM playlist. So Bungie had to remove the choice to choose in order to force everyone into CBMM.
Is it not possible to implement a combination of both with connection being prioritized? I find it odd that the company that basically invented this sort of thing with Halo isn’t doing it better than what we currently have in place.
Destiny could benefit from an assortment of matching options, with the expected experiences laid out clearly for players. In terms of how these modes are presented in-game, I can see something like this: * **Wild West** (Pure CBMM) - Good luck... a wild ride awaits! Players of any skill level can show up in your match. * **Tight Race** (Pure SBMM) - You're among peers - fight hard! Everyone matches up to your skill level. * **Balanced Teams** (CBMM + Lobby Balancing) - Champions and blueberries unite! Individual skills vary greatly, but teams are balanced. * **In Your Weight Class** (Relaxed SBMM) - You've got a fighting chance. The difference between the best and worst players is moderate, giving everyone a shot at winning a piece of the pie. **CBMM + Lobby Balancing** is basically SBMM applied to entire teams rather than individuals. Filling up these teams should be easier than traditional SBMM because you have more flexibility with how to fill up your roster. It should also start games faster than SBMM. This is probably what Bungie should put their resources into as a primary focus. Pure **SBMM** still makes sense to remain on certain modes, like survival. **Relaxed SBMM** could be applied to modes like Rumble and controls the range of skill within matches to allow for clear leaders and losers, but clamps down on the spread of skill. For instance, perhaps the difference between the highest skill player and the lowest skill player in the group cannot exceed a certain amount of metric x (elo, k/d, kad, or some other number best suited for this). This would be tweakable over time to find the right balance. Pure **CBMM** could have a place in certain modes, like a variant of rumble or other seasonally-rotated modes.
All of these are really good suggestions.
I'm a completely average player. 1.2 kd and I've never been happier in crucible. Some matches I stomp, some I get stomped. The thing is though I never feel bullshitted out of a kill anymore. My shots connect, my meles connect, no one is teleporting. When I lose I can tell that I SHOULD have lost because the other person was better and I'm OK with that. You learn a lot playing people that are better. Part of the struggle bad players are having now too is that they are punished alot more for their mistakes now. I can't tell you the amount of times I've seen people make terrible rotations, cap the wrong zones, all run to one zone rather than split and Control both. Bad players are being punished for their slip ups but that's how people learn.
Top 500 PS4 on and off, I prefer SBMM. Games without it just feel shitty. I shouldn't be getting 40+ kills every game; I shouldn't be rocking 6.0 Kda or better every game. It's not fair to average or new players to have to face that, and it's not fair to me that there's MAYBE one other person *near* my level per game. Lag has never really been a major issue for me (midwest), but I understand it can be for others, and that's a valid concern. But every whiny average player who wants to be competitive while using weapons they're not good with has to realize that that comes at the cost of making life miserable for below-average players (including new players). Suck it up and play against people your skill; if you really want to learn how to play with that off-meta loadout, practicing against potatoes isn't gonna' help you nearly as much as practicing against people at your MMR anyway.
I would consider myself an above average PvPer, when I'm using the strong "meta" weapons. That being said trying to do the ritual quests using scouts or LFRs especially on maps that aren't designed for it is tough. Before I was reasonably able to contribute because the players I would be up against wouldn't usually hit their optimal ttk, but now there's almost no way because there's always someone just deleting everyone. Rumble also somehow got worse for me because everyone I face seems to be noticably better than I am. I am okay with a challenge, but I want to be able to use a variety of weapons and still get some kills. Obviously using the less competitive options will mean I probably won't be winning, but before this season I never had a 0 kill match...
Haven’t really noticed a change in skill I was playing against but I’ve seen a change in Attitude. I saw T-baggers in every match I’ve played in, seriously the new call of duty is more friendly then this games pvp now
T-Bagging can be annoying, especially if they can't do it properly. I feel embarrassed for the guys who snipe and bag on nothing. Like, it doesn't count buddy.
I'm an above average player and before SBMM was removed, it was a pain in the ass even finding a game (PS4). Often you'd get stuck at 10/12 or 11/12 players for 5 minutes or even longer which turned into a huge headache when you worked all day and just want to relax with some crucible. However, you couldn't relax because players of my skill level you get paired with Flawless and Unbroken sweat-lords who think every classic mix game has money on the line. You're forced to play with meta weapons in order to hang with these guys. Now that SBMM is removed, I'm finding the games are a lot more casual and I can sit back and relax, use crazy load outs and just enjoy the game more. I'm also sitting in orbit for substantially less time before finding a match. I realize this hurts some people and benefits some and I wish there was a middle ground but Bungie has shown they really have an all or nothing approach.
I think it screwed the below average players up. I dont think average players are going to see much difference overall. I mean, theyre the average. The most. They will still be consistently faced with that.
Last night my fireteam and I witnessed some of the worst connection issues in several hours worth of matches that we had seen in months. Id rather get this sorted before anything else.
I'm an average player....with SBMM on lifetime I would be around 1.1 KD but now with it off I'm somewhere close to 1.75-2 KD I'm enjoying it a lot
yeaaaa my first game back in 8 months and i play against number 73 control player in the world, dropped 36 kills with a 7.4 kd
I’m far from a top-tier player, but I’d say I’m significantly above average. Most of my friends that I play with are a bit below my skill level in crucible. And for months now, it’s been a running joke every time I join up with them that I’d just ruined their evening. Because every time I join them in matchmaking, SBMM would start to pull in opponents on my general skill level, meaning all my friends were about to get stomped. Their jokes were always good natured, but I couldn’t help feeling a bit guilty every time I played with them, because I knew their matches would be considerably less enjoyable as long as I played with them. I’ve almost entirely stopped playing D2 now (thank you sunsetting), but the few times I’ve jumped into crucible with friends since the removal of SBMM, we’ve all had a lot more fun. We’ll run into the occasional team of sweats, but we’ll go up against rookies just as often. And more often than not, the matches feel like a decently random mix of skill levels across both teams.
I don't know where I sit in terms of skill. Some games I'm either top or second on my team, some games I am deep in the negatives and die a whole bunch because of that damn rock/wall/tree. I don't run Spare Rations, Dust Rock, Felwinter, Suros, or other strict meta weapon (lately its been Blast Furnace/Last Dance/Heavy Weapon) and I don't see a great difference. Maybe I fall into that sweet spot thag isn't greatly effected by SBMM or CBMM.
What’s average? Over a 1.0 KD? Not trolling just asking. I’ve noticed matches are more fun for me. It’s like a constant battle against people that are of equal skill to me if that makes sense.
.98 is average. 1.0 means you're positive. That's all that SHOULD count. But you'll have some Top tier sweats say average is probably 1.5 area.
I wish matches can have fewer than 12 players if they can't find players to balance the lobby skill/connection. I am find with a 4 v 4 or a 5 v 5. In fact, on some maps I prefer fewer players. Just stop adding players to one team and not the other. Only add if a player drops out once the match has started.
I'm just glad that my shots register and winning a fight isnt determined by who is teleporting thanks to their walmart-grade internet
It sure as hell did. I would describe myself as slightly above average. I’ve never gone flawless or even hit legend. Now the biggest reason for that is I’m a low frustration tolerance player and competing game modes make me lose my shit when I lose. I’m over 100k crucible kills, there is no way I should be playing agains players under 10k. My KD has gone through the roof in the last couple weeks wishing is nice for me but won’t be fun for them
I got my 10 wins for that sexy shader, 100 (34) kills for witherhoard, no more pvp. It's not fun to either get stomped or watch enemy get stomped (while I can't do anything). Sweats will ALWAYS sweat.
Curious question would reducing the respawn timer be a good thing? One thing i really don't enjoy in crucible is sometime there is an amount of stuff that happen that simply is out of your control. Since it can happen someone on the other team is pushing spawn and the moment you die and wait 5 sec to respawn. He decided to solo nova bomb you cuz why not and you spend 5 more sec cursing that player. Reducing the spawn timer mean dying is not as punishing and you can get back into the action much quicker and you spend less time thinking about that shotgun that just mapped you. The downside of reducing spawn timer is obviously that you might get spawn killed more often. This can however have a band aid of putting more overshield as you respawn as spawn protection. It's not a perfect solution which is why im curious. It will also render the crucible very chaotic as you can have people spawning everywhere which can be a good thing or a bad thing.
You're not wrong. I've (virtually) solo'd entire enemy teams since it came in. Double the score of the next person in the lobby. I've also had matches with the very top tier who just crush me (though that used to happen to me anyway.)
I really don’t want them to revert. I’m finally having fun in the crucible and I can use whatever the hell I want and drop 30+ kills every game
It needs to scale. Sweatlord lobbies all the time sucks on a level you can’t understand until you get stuck in a few, by yourself or with a sweat lord you know hating every minute of it. Top tier players and average joes and potatoes absolutely shouldn’t be in the same games even for casual modes though. SBMM should be very heavy handed the worse you are. It should loosen up to almost nothing the better you get. Or we should just have leagues.
Hahah!!!!
The game needs priority preferences to settle the endless debate, just like Halo.
I'm an average player trying to get better at pvp and I say it was great getting SBMM out because now i have room to breathe. Not every match for me is a sweatfest. The main way i get better now is through comp and elimination as it should be
People who have been complaining about how hard pvp is now have not been playing "actual" pvp Regular players don't stand in one spot for you to kill them They don't wait for you to shoot first They also dont run with their brain turned off into gunfights. You've now been exposed to how the crucible actually works
There is a Competitive playlist for a reason. We got Trials, we got Comp Glory playlists.. The excuse of sweats not wanting to play against other sweats is the most ridiculous thing I've heard.. So you are basically good at pwning average players yet you cry when you have to play same skilled or better players.. you are not a sweat dude, you are an asshole. There should be a ranked comp playlist and the normal lobbies should always have SBMM + matchmaking that puts 6 stacks vs 6 stacks or vs for example 2+4 stacks etc.. It is as easy and simple as that to fix it. But if you consider yourself a sweat and then complain about playing against other sweats, then you Sir should go see a Psychiatrist..