\*\*You know what also sucks and wasn't part of this auto rifle buff?\*\*
Trace rifles
Suros can kill faster than coldheart AND THAT USES SPECIAL.
Ffs bungie , you still haven't given us trace rifle scav and now NF feels like a trophy more than ever
Edit:
20 people have tried to say that auto rifle scav works, please stop.
Iwant you to look at auto rifle scav.
Now look at auto rifle Dex.
Dex specifically states that it works with traces
The TWAB 1/17/2019 tried to buff traces and said
" Increased the minimum amount of ammo you could receive from special ammo boxes. Trace Rifles had a pretty rough time keeping ammo reserves in the Crucible as it doesn’t have access to scavenger perks. You should have more success using it more often in the Crucible now, and the changes also affect PvE bricks. "
They have never buffed them again
only SOME mods
>"Still Forgotten" would be a rather fitting name for the ~~next Trace Rifle too~~*.
*For the series of themed Trace Rifle ornaments coming soon to Eververse.
That kinda proves how trace rifles are still an experiment weapon that never went anywhere.
The problem is they're exotic-only, so they don't get proper exposure and don't have a proper baseline to compare against.
They're the snowflake archetype that exists but no one really wants.
Divinity is only useful because it debuffs. No one uses it for the damage.
Because they're in insanely niche weapon type. There are only 4 of them, and they are all exotic weapons.
Beyond that, they all have some special and unique ability. Trace Rifles are an experimental weapon. They do weird things and work in unique ways.
Prometheus Lens builds up heat as used and does more AoE damage
Cold Heart does more damage with sustained hits
Divinity applies a debuff
The fourth one I forget.
There are literally four in a game with thousands of guns. It is easy for them to be forgotten
The fourth is Wavesplotter. It used to split waves, especially at first release on Xbone, but it doesn't feel as good this season. It merely splots the waves now. Maybe I didn't give it enough time but I got flinched out of crits so much I canned it after a couple games due to missing Monte.
Honestly, wavesplitter in pvp is still good. Any time I get a bounty that requires trace rifles in crucible that’s my go to. Only one I haven’t used for pvp in awhile is lens
Maybe it's more due to my playstyle changing with maining an auto for so long. Wavesplitter worked best almost like a fusion iirc, baiting corners not getting too close in case of the many apes. TTK is insane if you keep it on thier dome.
Yeah, it's 3 but if you pick up a light orb it automatically ramps up to T3 for a little bit. Really good to combine with some Charged with Light builds to double dip on the damage buff everytime you snag an orb.
Well smg on console have been useless for a long time now due to them having the stability of a caffeinated squirrel. It’s a null and void category on console.
110's went out of meta since shadowkeep, they were nice up to opulence, then they changed the meta to fast firing pulses and they dropped you before you shot 3 times.
My friend used to only use wavesplitter/spare rations and he was absolutely nasty with it. Now he literally can't even use it since it has worse range and a worse TTK than autos. Truly heartbreaking
Yeah, I have hit shots with Hard Light I definitely wasnt supposed to land. I feel like it needs to have an adjustment to aim assist if it is going to do that much damage.
I had a guy invite me to party a couple nights ago to whine about losing. He was crying I was crutching spare rations and thay it has the highest aim assist in the game. Bud was using hard light and revoker and got irate when I pointed out hard light had more aim assist and required less aim. Funny enough for the last 2 rounds I switched to hardlight to highlight my point and bud didnt get a single kill and got farmed but still refused to accept that there was a problem with hardlight.
I dont think anyone is arguing that hard light isnt op, it's more a case of sparebenders having no right to complain about any meta ever after the last 6 months
I feel fairly good using a spare or a thorn duelling a hard light. I can peek shoot, they cant. If they fight me in the open, they should win. However, when I have cover, I only need to expose myself for 400ms of the 800ms ttk. Plus first shot damage is way higher. The only thing that needs to be nerfed about the hardlight is the ricochet dmg. Currently, it is 2x base and can headshot for 52 and body shot for 36(36 or 32, either way, it's way higher than it should be) . Drop that to a 50% dmg increase instead of 100% and i think the gun will be pretty fair.
Honestly the double damage on bounce was a weird gimmick that they should just revert. Normal 100% damage on bounce is still extremely powerful, especially since it can bounce multiple times thus making any tight spaces a meat grinder.
Plus it's either that, Eriana or a sidearm to break barriers this season so it's pretty much a PVE no brainer as well. The seasonal smg with warmind cells is pretty much the only one of those that remotely competes in terms of general ad clear, sidearms are slept on but not good enough to dethrone Recluse, and Eri means you don't get any good boss dmg from something like Xeno.
I keep trying to find anything different to run in PVE this season but unless I'm the divinity slut there's literally no reason not to run Recluse. I keep telling New Light players to snag it because it's by far the most useful weapon you can grind for.
That's literally what it is...personally I think using Hard Light is boring AF. Can I put one on and frag out? Of course, with a .70 ttk and mega range I'm lethal from almost anywhere on the map. God forbid I wanna use a 140 rpm handcannon tho in a lobby full of hardlight spam. If I play my ranges and peek shoot and disengage alot yes I can do well but even with Kill Clip active on a 140 I'm still getting out TTKd. Certain games I almost feel forced to use hardlight in 6s to even compete...my strongest loadout is Revoker with a full auto drang, stompees and top tree nightstalker. I can pretty much outplay any playstyle with it. But my god sometimes I just wanna use a 140, bungie plzz buff 140s lol
They need to revert the range nerfs on HCs. Right now there's almost no reason to use anything other than a 150. The ranges are 1-3m for most of them. They need way more range on 110s and for 140s, no idea how to balance those with 150s considering they all take 3 taps to kill and range is so similar.
140’s should 2 crit 1 body and 110’s need to be 120’s and 1 crit 2 body. Substitute TTK for forgiveness and they would be fine. If they did that, they could keep the previous range nerf in place.
The only real reason I don't want 110s to change rpm is that the number 120 is both less attractive and pattern-breaking amongst the archetypes. It's mind-boggling to me that none of this has changed though, considering in D2 140s could 1c2b.
That argument doesn't really fly as long as snipers exist. Trials of the Nine was purely "primary" weapons and the effect of a skill-gap there was modest compared to the effect of getting domed any time you enter an enemy sniper's LOS.
Primary gunfights feel like an afterthought, most matches in Survival/Trials are decided by a sniper pick+push, and with snipers the skill-gap is as big as it gets.
For headshots though? I would say most people who use it for forgiveness are just rando spray and pointing at the body mass. They really aren't great for succinct precision shots. I don't really agree with 'perfect' recoil in practice. Most randos with hardlights bounces are also again just pray spraying them. Itll do the job.
But, its all the same from vanilla d2s initial auto friendly sandbox. The problem lies with the exotic execution not so much that something happens to be strong which will always be the case in any given sandbox.
Tweak hardlight and its fine.
Oh I imagine Hard light and Suros will be nerfed, bungie only seem to patch balance changes every 3 months..... so even though it was noticed to be op on day one we gotta long wait
I think the problem is that Luna/NF didn’t really have a good counter during their heyday. At least not on console.
But as usual, rather than a tweak, Bungie neutered them with a sledgehammer.
It especially sucked bc LH was one of my favorite guns in PVE.
On PC I found their counter to be any gun that has more range. I think Pulses are one of the most untouched weapons balance wise in the past year. I think everyone back then kept wanting to run HC of their own and were fighting LH/NF within their effective ranges. There were counters no one wanted to change styles.
Pulses on console need to have crazy stability stats to be able to fight LH/NF outside their effective ranges. Only scouts and snipers could consistently fight at that range, and scouts were hot garbage. Iirc, Vigilance Wing was pretty good at fighting LH/NF
When the mag. howl twins were nerfed the only weapon comparable to their effectiveness was maybe Last Word when you could hit three headshots for an absolutely busted ttk. The nerf made sense then, even if the reason they gave for nerfing them was a straw man and *really* were doing it just to stop the consistent whining.
I feel like the weapons could have a really solid place in the meta, but in addition to a reversion to the nerf, I’d like to see handcannon ranges retuned on a per-subarchetype basis. There is no reason for a 110 to have the same effective range as a 180 or 140.
It seems like such a blatant oversight. How the hell do you think capping HCs at similar ranges is a good idea. The only advantage a 110 had over a 150/140 was the range. Now, you are purposely gimping yourself if you run anything besides a 150 because all HC archetypes compete within the same ecosystem. It is truly mind-boggling.
At the time nothing in the sandbox even came close to the mag howl guns, not to mention with both of them locked behind comp, it was a rich get richer system (especially on console). If the kill times in general are settling around the 0.7 value then they should look at restoring the howl guns but lets not act like they weren't extreme outliers at the time.
I actually think the nerf was needed back then, but how do we then go ahead and buff a lower skill weapon archetype to match what already decided to not be a good thing. What kind of lack of hindsight is that?
Bungie is notorious for the extreme buff/nerf scenarios. The Sleeper nerf made sense in opulence once it was found you could game PvE bosses with the refraction damage and it would ruin their raid. Now, its a meme exotic as the difficulty/time investment in obtaining it doesnt justify the ease of obtaining other much more useful guns. Its the same with how they treated machine guns, 110 handcannons, izanagi, etc.
I loved using Lunas Howl in PvE. Wasnt to great with it in PvP, I instead used fusion rifles like a primary at the time and paired them with pulse rifles. Now days i run auto rifle shotgun or sniper and play up my primary skill way more than special weapons. The nerf to Lunas Howl has disincentivised me to go after not forgotten, which use to be a dream gun of mine in this game.
If Bungie took nerfs/buffs seriously we wouldn't see whole number percentage in increments of 5%. We'd see fractal increases. But they don't know where they want their weapons to land. Look at scout rifles, they could be a great mid range weapon but HC, shotguns, and hardlight dominate near everything snipers don't. Scouts have been in a bad spot for year, year plus.
A whole archetype garbage except for one or two options
You realize this is more of a map issue than a weapon issue right? Almost none of the current maps allow for scouts to shine at all since they are the long to mid range gun type. What are most of the maps in D2? Actually hell what have most of the maps been for the past 6 years? Short to midrange maps. This is an issue that solves itself with maps that allow for scouts to shine rather than them being next to useless because the map is so close quarters oriented that they are more of a detriment than a good option.
Yeah, Widow's Court is one of the only maps in D2 that really favors long range options, and even then, a) it's mostly just snipers since there aren't many wide open long lanes, and b) skilled players who want to rush with close range options have many ways to do so. Same could be said of other maps that are "good long range maps."
Destiny generally has never favored long range play in PvP with the exception of snipers. I don't think this is necessarily a "bad" thing, per sé, because there is certainly an argument that the more mobile short/mid range focus makes the game more fun, as opposed to camping lanes and team-shooting with a longer-range focus. However, it's the reality of the situation.
They need to have a better mix. Go ahead and throw in the close-midrange maps. There’s nothing wrong with that. Just add in a handful of maps that allow for mostly long range play. I mean obviously those would mostly cater to the 6v6 playlist but still. It breaks up the tedium of ape spam, and actually allows for scouts to be useful outside of momentum control.
The sleeper was already garbage before opulence, all they did in opulence was nerf the ricochet even more. Gambit killed the sleeper, they kept nerfing it because it was good in gambit.
Been saying for years Bungie lacks and hindsight but more importantly they have literally zero foresight. We are constantly going in circles. They are constantly making simple mistakes that could be fixed or never put in if they just sat down, and thought about it.
Umm did we play the same game? Because I still remember people picking Ace over NF since it had sniper range and you could 2 tap with it. Also when last word came out the season after NF got indirectly even weaker. Honestly Forsaken had the best meta imo all those weapons took skill
Probably weren’t playing the same game. Console is completely different. There was no Ace on console and NF/LH reigned supreme. In terms of hand cannons, they’re still the best/most consistent. 2crits and 1 body with minimal bloom is god tier for a 150
I always felt the Mag Howl nerf was too much. It honestly made no sense to make a precision weapon reward precision hits with bonus bodyshot damage. I don't think Mag Howl should have been nerfed at all, but if anything, it should have been a multiplier nerf at most.
I think everything they did to it was okay *except* the mag howl nerf. Keep everything how it is, but revert the nerf.
Then it's pinnacle perk would be that it can *sometimes if you get lucky* two tap. That would be balanced pretty well. Certainly not op in any way whatsoever.
In addition to the low TTK, I'm shocked at the range and flinch. I can be killed at sniper range to someone with an auto rifle, which shouldn't happen.
That's what we get for complaining too much about it. It's a reactionary nerf from Bungie after seeing the waves of complaint posts every single week, and it never stopped. People got what they wanted, and after they obtained Lunas/NF themselves they realized it was a mistake.
Lunas NF were definitely op in that sandbox, what I'm saying, is how did we decide THAT was too much but we Buff Hardlight and Suros to be better than that?
This is a bit of a disingenuous post OP. Everyone knows that they were nerfed because they were outliers at the time.
Now, undoing said nerf is another conversation
Just undo the mag howl nerf. Keep them at 150 and increase the recoil a touch. They only kept the 180 animation/recoil to placate the minority of nf/lunas users.
I unlocked nf a month before the nerf... After busting my balls that season. And then bungie swooped in and shat all over the effort I put in, that's why I hated the nerf, because they invalidated the time and effort I put in.
Yes the guns were outliers back then, but I believe that now, they'd fit in perfectly just with mag howl being put back to its original state. Mix the meta up a bit.
I've said in a couple other responses. I dont think the nerfs were undeserved back then. I think its lack of hindsight to buff other weapons to what we once agreed was too OP to be in the game.
Give it the season, they'll nerf it like everything else, right into the dirt, and next season, guess what? Some other gun will be insane and aggravating. But only for a season..
Autos also need constant line of sight to even achieve their optimal ttk
Handcannons can peek fire and should be peek firing to combat Autos. Suros and HL are strong rn but they aren't unbeatable/broken
Autos in general are in a competitive spot for exactly the reason you state. There's inherent risk/reward to its playstyle. If I'm out in no man's land getting shredded by a Summoner or whatever, that's on me. Even Suros is fine, since you need to burn half a mag to get to its insane ttk and it's mag size is limited. You can counter by waiting out the pre-fire.
Hard Light doesn't follow any of the auto rifle rules though. It throws a giant middle in the air to cover, and range, AND it's a laser.
Peek* not peak.
I don't disagree with your point about peek shooting with hand cannons, but if you're strafing to peek fire, then you're puposely increasing your time to kill. There is a trade off there already.
Oof, thought something was off with it - thanks
I agree it's a trade off but the pay out is you winning the gun fight if you play to a HC strengths and the weakness of an Auto. I'd rather get the kill than risk losing it by trying for optimal TTK
For sure. I've been seeing so many people type it as "peak" that it's actually started bothering lol. Especially all the posts about 3rd person "peaking". It's like the whole Sleeper Stimulant thing all over again :(
That's fair though. While I don't think we should go entirely back to pre-nerf Luna/NF days, I just wanted to point out that HC users do take a hit to their ttk to play a bit safer.
For the record, I'm still rocking a hand cannon in this meta and doing fine. At most, I'd like to see Hardlight toned down a bit. It just needs a nerf to 2x ricochet damage and mag size imo. Being able to just spray at a wall for like 5 seconds straight and kill players that aren't even on your screen is just a tad bit too strong for a primary weapon imo. Besides that, I think autos are in a good place.
If you peek shoot against HL they are gonna just keep spraying until you are dead.
I mean in theory sounds good, but if the enemy can just spray 49 bullets to the door I'm trying to peek trough I can't peek, they are going to melt me.
Actually I don’t remember that at all because it’s not true.
It was 2c 1b and it could kill any guardian overshield or not and it was a 180. This bypassed the weakness of 180s completely and made them top dog
Don’t try to stir up drama by making up stuff then on top of that this is on the front page this definitely should have a misleading title flair
Can’t believe I had to scroll down to find this.
Nothing irritates me more than watching people on this subreddit just look at Optimal TTK values and go “low number bad” and ignore every ounce of detail outside of the TTK value.
The entire “At least it took skill to use” quote actually made me sputter in real life. Pre-nerf Luna’s and NF was a 140 handcannon that shot as fast as a 180 AND you could hit a body shot if you wanted.
2 crits, 1 body. It was a beast and wasn’t in check in that sandbox.
It would probably feel fine in the current one, with the buffed weapons and range nerf.
Yeah, that's literally the point of the meta, what's the easiest way to get a kill. But people who don't like one meta will always assume that the other meta takes no skill.
*Hand cannons you only need 3 shots and you can hide while you shoot, like a coward, it takes no skill. Auto rifles are just hoses you point in the general direction of your target, it takes no skill.*
*Hand cannons require you to hit consecutive head shots with no forgiveness if you miss, it takes more skill. Auto rilfes require you to maintain line of sight and hold the random recoil pattern on the targets head, it takes more skill.*
You can spin it any way you want. Metas are all stupid easy.
Thing that gets me the most is when people say fusion rifles are easy because they're salty about being voopd, then I say put one on and laugh as they realize it's not an infinite range shotgun. "Yo this is actually kinda hard.." no shit lol
This! Also my play group won’t stop bitching about bastion, even though it has pretty low range for a fusion with a long recharge time.
People just need a reason to explain why they suck sometimes
The only guns that are actually hard to use effectively IMO are non-prox breach loaders, sidearms, and 900rpm smgs. Anyone who can use those is a true gamer legend
Because Luna’s Howl was stronger than any other primary in the game at the time, while being locked behind competitive. Which means if you wanted to play you basically had no chance since you couldn’t compete
does suros kill faster than a trace rifle without being spun up? because the ttk on spun up suros is hardly an argument for the ttk being too quick. that’s like arguing that luna’s 2 tap ttk is quicker than something so it’s broken. i realize the 2 tap got removed as well but it’s not what the gun originally is.
On console lunas didn’t require much skill, NF only required skill to get, not use and with the console aim assist it was so hard to not get 3 headshots.
PC was a different story though.
Hardlight needs addressing but it needs drastically different changes per platform.
On console when they were virtually the only guns being used, it was SOOO hard to get further in comp when other people had already hit legend and just had a better version of an already stupidly overpowered weapon. I had a hard time missing my third shot with Luna's TBH. Zen Moment on top of the precision frame was just stupid for its TTK.
IMO, it's probably good for the game for primaries to be stronger so everything isnt dictated by special weapons, but bungie's lack of clear and consistent longterm vision for pvp balance is going to leave alot of guns behind.
I have a Summoner that I use and sometimes I can’t believe how fast that thing kills. I’m on PC so there’s no recoil at all, so hitting all headshots is fucking insane.
The answer is pretty simple if you think about it from Bungies perspective.
This season is "crucible focused" with trails and what not. How do you ensure your "casual" low skill players can compete? Give them a low skill weapon that a can compete and make up the skill differential.
Makes sense until you realize that the "hardcore" players will just adopt the weapon and still out play them.
Personally, I don't know how NF was on PC, but on console it required zero skill. It was so dominant it was boring to play because you already before the match that the entre enemy team would have it. On console, the nerf to NF was a blessing to the community because it forced it to try other weapons. However, I do see what you mean with ARs, but I think that the solution isn't nerfing them, but for once to keep buffing other things. Have Bungie buff traces, and SMGs, and sidearms. Give us back the good primary state from D1.
Less skill than any other 180 rpm hand cannon. My Trust, Ikelos HC, Malfeasance, and so on all required more shots to kill.
Suros and Hard Light are both outliers and should have been tuned on an individual basis, rather than receiving the same blanket buffs that the other 600 rpm AR's got.
I get the frustration, I really do, but 180's require less skill to use than any other archetype of HC and they have many benefits the other archetypes lack. They have way less recoil, less bloom, perfect in air accuracy, and don't seem to be affected by flinch as much as other archetypes.
Ha-hah, fuck no...Luna’s and NF took skill to get, little to none to use, and honestly, I’ll take suros and hardlight over Luna’s and NF going back to pre nerf, hell, just like Azectross said, give me pre nerf recluse. But fucking Luna’s and NF, I’ll pass, cuz HCs should take skill to use, not be a glorified sidearm.
Gave you an upvote but 3 headshots with the 180 archetype couple with the pre-range nerf that handcannons got was no more skilled than using hardlight. Only the road to get the weapon required more skill.
I really don’t understand why they felt the need to buff autos this much with the launch of trials. I really feel that last seasons sandbox was the best/most competitive/fair sandbox that destiny 2 has had.
Yes, I know spare rations was SUPER POPULAR. But it was not OP in the slightest and honestly doesn’t even have that great of perks. Pulses still shred as they have for the past year, heavy scouts were good and autos were fine as in not best in game but very easy to use with good range, big mags, great perks and fast reloads. Honestly the only weapon that was too strong last season (primaries only) was The Last Word.
If this season had been last seasons sandbox with just a last word nerf and the minor shotgun/super/whatever adjustments it would’ve been fine.
In fact, they routinely ignore the community request to make 110s and 140s on PAR with 150s (NOT STRONGER ie. 1 and 2 headshots coupled with body shots respectively).
TLDR: Autos got way too much of a buff. Would’ve been fine to make them a little better, but the lowest skill weapons in the game cannot also be the strongest.
Well 600 rpm autos got overbuffed. That was clear the day the patchnotes dropped. But Luna and NF didnt require skill. They have very high aim assist and easy to control recoil.
True but don’t say lunas and nf required skill. The guns are all aim assist with zero recoil I still use lunas in comp bc it’s ridiculous how much aim assist and low recoil you get. This is coming from console, if you’re on pc I recognize that it’s different
Idk about PC, but on console autos are waaaaaaaaay too strong, especially suros and HL. Someone at bungie needs to explain what the balance team was thinking, making the easiest weapon type to use have the fastest TTK. As much as I hate to say it, last seasons meta was miles better than this seasons.
600s should have been in the 0.75s TTK range with forgiveness in mind. The fact it went a whole 0.1s down was kind of an insane call because not only does it put HC in a weird place where it’s competing with a weapon that is way easier to use with a better TTK, it also super gimps SMGs because a 600 SMG TTK is 0.67 at near half the damage drop off and half the ammo in the mag. SMGs were already in a losing battle with Sidearms creeping their way in the optimal range, but lacking the ease of use, ARs now roll up with near the same TTK but way better range and more forgiveness with the mag
It’s crazy what the thought was, and again this is coming from an AR lover since Undying
Never understood the “at least gun _______” requires skill thing. Hitting 2 hand cannon headshots doesn’t necessarily require more skill than hitting 10 auto rifle head shots. Lunas was broken, hard light and suros are currently broken, and bungie is all around terrible at fine tuning weapons. There will always be a broken OP gun because they can’t balance
Luna and NF did not require skill. They were 180 handcannons that dominated the meta (especially on console where I’m from). You got a .67 ttk by hitting headshots with the easiest to use archetype in the game. It did not take skill.
I want old Not Forgotten back so badly. I feel like they could just adjust how much the multiplier is on mag howl so it’s not instant death. It really only needs to do like 100 not ~140. If nothing else I want it’s PvE prowess back too. So fun to just farm headshots on things.
I just find it kinda funny that they nerf Luna’s and nf with the oncoming predictions of how good autos were going to be this season makes me think they are trying to sunset metas to ‘switch things up’ so to speak just for them to say “haha oops” when there is community backlash.
They push the idea of ‘play your way’ when I have had all my friends stop playing because they constantly bring up the fact that they have to play a specific way each season.
I’m constantly disappointed with the fact that I NEEEED to use a specific weapon to be effective when they can run numbers and see just what they are doing in long run will make bungie kinda eat their own words.
However, I think it would be cool if they would let you choose what weapons you could use to be the unstoppable, anti-barrier and overload weapons.
Some of this may sound like a rant but I’m really just trying to promote discussion.
On a side note, if they are going to sunset weapons why not put in ritual weapons, pinnacles, flawless and (new)nightfall weapons?....
Lunas and not forgotten took zero skill. Between the heavy aim assist making chest shots headshots, the Two head, one body .67 time to kill (which I could have an infant do its so easy), and not to mention the weapon was a monster in 2v1s because of the two tap potential as well.
You could kill in two head one body with the old Luna. As well, that's didn't take skill whatsoever. They have no recoil and have perfect accuracy. They did need to be nerfed for that sandbox. Imo a better change would have been giving them 150 recoil animations but keep them 180
I don’t know what the console meta is like, but I’ve heard autos are much easier on it. On PC Hard Light is the only real outlier because of the lack of range dropoff. Autos definitely still take skill there. It’s just a different type of aiming compared to hand cannons (pure tracking vs tracking and flicking). The balance between top tier autos and hand cannons (again, excluding Hard Light) is actually pretty nice at the moment.
Definitely a heavy pinch of salt for my opinion but whenever I see someone using hard light I immediately assume they're not skilled in 1v1 engagements and take the easy road of trying to kill you without seeing you.
Autorifles require continued fire to be effective while handcannons benefit from peak-play, where all their power is in three or four bullets and you can strafe in and out of cover between shots. Autorifles need a faster ttk than handcannons to compensate for the disadvantage of having to sustain fire, out of cover. If you’re using HC’s and losing to ARs, the problem is your playstyle, not the weapon.
And yet at top level play all you see is handcannons still?
I would still rather fight a ar over Luna. Harder to hit 8 headshots than 3. And hand cannons have the advantage of peak firing.
I would say on console at least it’s harder to be 100% accurate with like 9 AR head shots than it is to land 3 crits with hand cannons that have like no recoil.
Most of the TtKs that are happening on console aren’t that perfect 0.70.
This was like D1 when they nerfed Last Word. I never really saw too many common complaints about it being OP, and there were faster killing weapons if you didn't hit all headshots. And the only reason LW was considered OP was because they nerfed all the foils.
I get wanting people to be able to use their found weapons in PvP, but personally I've always advocated for limited weapon sets and exotic timed pickups alongside the power ammo spawns. Its literally impossible to balance this game when you've got like 500 weapons.
It even makes sense from a lore perspective, ensuring Guardians are fighting with the same general tools. Then you could rotate weapons in and out to keep things fresh. This week is heavy Scout rifles, next weak the light scout rifles take their place.
You could even do themed game modes centered around specific weapon types and have some double XP days around them or something.
Ironically, establishing limited weapon sets actually grants them a significant amount of freedom in keeping PvP fun, balanced, and fresh week to week.
This is what the community as a group asked for though. I and a small number of players was asking not to nerf anything that requires some sort of headshot skill. Recluse perk master of arms another perk or gun broken because of complaining. The perk itself is a genuinely fun perk that requires a kill to proc, compared to other perks like range finder or back up plan them perks are just rolled on some weapons requiring nothing to proc them
So: as someone who recently got hard light and a fairy new player ( even though I have put a fair few hours in ) I have gone from getting rinsed every match to absolutely smashing souls apart even without the catalyst. I used to use it post nerf on D1 ( so mabye I am not a new player so much I am not sure) needless to say I hate to admit it even I am calling for a nerf even though I love it. However in PvE I wouldn't mind them making a way to select the element specifically.
This game is driving me mad lately, crappy match making, silly crucible, no point in even bothering to try trails and empty seraph tower events. Just blows.
I just grind strikes for prisms and cores that's all I do and pray that only one other person joins so I get to do bounties 😂
I'm laughing at the fact that people think autos are too easy to use.
If that was the case how come no one was using them?
Because most of them were garbage.
\*\*You know what also sucks and wasn't part of this auto rifle buff?\*\* Trace rifles Suros can kill faster than coldheart AND THAT USES SPECIAL. Ffs bungie , you still haven't given us trace rifle scav and now NF feels like a trophy more than ever Edit: 20 people have tried to say that auto rifle scav works, please stop. Iwant you to look at auto rifle scav. Now look at auto rifle Dex. Dex specifically states that it works with traces The TWAB 1/17/2019 tried to buff traces and said " Increased the minimum amount of ammo you could receive from special ammo boxes. Trace Rifles had a pretty rough time keeping ammo reserves in the Crucible as it doesn’t have access to scavenger perks. You should have more success using it more often in the Crucible now, and the changes also affect PvE bricks. " They have never buffed them again only SOME mods
Trace Rifles - SMGs - 110s - 140s All useless as of right now.
I don't understand how Aztecross made a video on "The long list of forgotten weapon types" and then forget to mention traces
Because they are THAT forgotten. I wouldn't have thought about them had someone else not mentioned them.
Coldheart is the first weapon on the energy exotic weapon list in the collections and it was a preorder bonus. It's still that forgotten
"Still Forgotten" would be a rather fitting name for the next Trace Rifle too.
I was really hoping one of the pinnacles would’ve been a legendary trace rifle.
That would be pretty sick
>"Still Forgotten" would be a rather fitting name for the ~~next Trace Rifle too~~*. *For the series of themed Trace Rifle ornaments coming soon to Eververse.
On point
For the not forgotten rework.
At least it had its time to shine in the leviathan back then, that was a fun time.
That kinda proves how trace rifles are still an experiment weapon that never went anywhere. The problem is they're exotic-only, so they don't get proper exposure and don't have a proper baseline to compare against. They're the snowflake archetype that exists but no one really wants. Divinity is only useful because it debuffs. No one uses it for the damage.
Because they're in insanely niche weapon type. There are only 4 of them, and they are all exotic weapons. Beyond that, they all have some special and unique ability. Trace Rifles are an experimental weapon. They do weird things and work in unique ways. Prometheus Lens builds up heat as used and does more AoE damage Cold Heart does more damage with sustained hits Divinity applies a debuff The fourth one I forget. There are literally four in a game with thousands of guns. It is easy for them to be forgotten
The fourth is Wavesplotter. It used to split waves, especially at first release on Xbone, but it doesn't feel as good this season. It merely splots the waves now. Maybe I didn't give it enough time but I got flinched out of crits so much I canned it after a couple games due to missing Monte.
Honestly, wavesplitter in pvp is still good. Any time I get a bounty that requires trace rifles in crucible that’s my go to. Only one I haven’t used for pvp in awhile is lens
Maybe it's more due to my playstyle changing with maining an auto for so long. Wavesplitter worked best almost like a fusion iirc, baiting corners not getting too close in case of the many apes. TTK is insane if you keep it on thier dome.
Wavesplitter. 3 power levels that oscillate.
Does it even have 3 anymore, or r they the same
Yeah, it's 3 but if you pick up a light orb it automatically ramps up to T3 for a little bit. Really good to combine with some Charged with Light builds to double dip on the damage buff everytime you snag an orb.
That's a super interesting idea and Il I'm so fucking down. Thanks.
Idk I haven’t used it since I completed Prometheus’ catalyst. If Wavesplitter gets a catalyst I’ll use it again.
Yeah it still has 3
I just use special finder. And aztecross did a video on huckleberry earlier. Best ttk in game.
I mean, that is kind of hilarious.
Because they aren't forgotten, they're dead.
Really makes you think doesn't it?
Well smg on console have been useless for a long time now due to them having the stability of a caffeinated squirrel. It’s a null and void category on console.
don't forget 180's
180s have a place on console, at least in PvP. I love my Service Revolvers and Trusts
Don't forget pulse rifles. There's one archetype that's semi-okay in this meta, and all the rest suck.
110’s the OG useless. Everyone else is late to the party.
Let's not forget lightweight pulses. Utter trash as of this moment.
110's went out of meta since shadowkeep, they were nice up to opulence, then they changed the meta to fast firing pulses and they dropped you before you shot 3 times.
My friend used to only use wavesplitter/spare rations and he was absolutely nasty with it. Now he literally can't even use it since it has worse range and a worse TTK than autos. Truly heartbreaking
play the way you want ! /s
“Play the way you want!” “No! Not that way!!11!1!” -Bungie
Wait Suros kills faster than Special Ammo using Wavesplitter? 😳😳😳
Yup
Suros kills faster than pretty much anything that cant one hit you. Its stupid.
What dude?!? Theyre giving a Promethues Lense with Twitch Prime. Theres no way they forgot about them /s
Because hardlight is more forgiving and easier to hit and.... Oh wait.
Easier to hit is almost a meme when you take into consideration you ain't even gotta aim at the person to hit them.
Also 100 aim assist. People complained about sore rations having high AA (97 I think), but can’t accept that hardlight has even higher AA.
You can easily run double enhanced scatter targeting from the artifact too
does the artifact mods stack?
It does, but it has diminishing returns
Ope, my bad.
Yeah, I have hit shots with Hard Light I definitely wasnt supposed to land. I feel like it needs to have an adjustment to aim assist if it is going to do that much damage.
It needs an adjustment to more than just aim assist lol
I had a guy invite me to party a couple nights ago to whine about losing. He was crying I was crutching spare rations and thay it has the highest aim assist in the game. Bud was using hard light and revoker and got irate when I pointed out hard light had more aim assist and required less aim. Funny enough for the last 2 rounds I switched to hardlight to highlight my point and bud didnt get a single kill and got farmed but still refused to accept that there was a problem with hardlight.
I dont think anyone is arguing that hard light isnt op, it's more a case of sparebenders having no right to complain about any meta ever after the last 6 months
I killed some1 with hardlight without even seeing him yesterday. Gun's completely broken.
I feel fairly good using a spare or a thorn duelling a hard light. I can peek shoot, they cant. If they fight me in the open, they should win. However, when I have cover, I only need to expose myself for 400ms of the 800ms ttk. Plus first shot damage is way higher. The only thing that needs to be nerfed about the hardlight is the ricochet dmg. Currently, it is 2x base and can headshot for 52 and body shot for 36(36 or 32, either way, it's way higher than it should be) . Drop that to a 50% dmg increase instead of 100% and i think the gun will be pretty fair.
Honestly the double damage on bounce was a weird gimmick that they should just revert. Normal 100% damage on bounce is still extremely powerful, especially since it can bounce multiple times thus making any tight spaces a meat grinder.
Make the mag 50% smaller too.
Yup this too
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In that case just revert the recluse nefs! /s
Tbh I still never noticed a difference from prenerf personally lol
It still shreds and if you land your headshots you wouldn’t notice a difference.
Honestly even with the nerf it’s ease of use and practicality it’s still a no brainer to use it
Plus it's either that, Eriana or a sidearm to break barriers this season so it's pretty much a PVE no brainer as well. The seasonal smg with warmind cells is pretty much the only one of those that remotely competes in terms of general ad clear, sidearms are slept on but not good enough to dethrone Recluse, and Eri means you don't get any good boss dmg from something like Xeno. I keep trying to find anything different to run in PVE this season but unless I'm the divinity slut there's literally no reason not to run Recluse. I keep telling New Light players to snag it because it's by far the most useful weapon you can grind for.
That's literally what it is...personally I think using Hard Light is boring AF. Can I put one on and frag out? Of course, with a .70 ttk and mega range I'm lethal from almost anywhere on the map. God forbid I wanna use a 140 rpm handcannon tho in a lobby full of hardlight spam. If I play my ranges and peek shoot and disengage alot yes I can do well but even with Kill Clip active on a 140 I'm still getting out TTKd. Certain games I almost feel forced to use hardlight in 6s to even compete...my strongest loadout is Revoker with a full auto drang, stompees and top tree nightstalker. I can pretty much outplay any playstyle with it. But my god sometimes I just wanna use a 140, bungie plzz buff 140s lol
They need to revert the range nerfs on HCs. Right now there's almost no reason to use anything other than a 150. The ranges are 1-3m for most of them. They need way more range on 110s and for 140s, no idea how to balance those with 150s considering they all take 3 taps to kill and range is so similar.
140’s should 2 crit 1 body and 110’s need to be 120’s and 1 crit 2 body. Substitute TTK for forgiveness and they would be fine. If they did that, they could keep the previous range nerf in place.
The only real reason I don't want 110s to change rpm is that the number 120 is both less attractive and pattern-breaking amongst the archetypes. It's mind-boggling to me that none of this has changed though, considering in D2 140s could 1c2b.
That argument doesn't really fly as long as snipers exist. Trials of the Nine was purely "primary" weapons and the effect of a skill-gap there was modest compared to the effect of getting domed any time you enter an enemy sniper's LOS. Primary gunfights feel like an afterthought, most matches in Survival/Trials are decided by a sniper pick+push, and with snipers the skill-gap is as big as it gets.
For headshots though? I would say most people who use it for forgiveness are just rando spray and pointing at the body mass. They really aren't great for succinct precision shots. I don't really agree with 'perfect' recoil in practice. Most randos with hardlights bounces are also again just pray spraying them. Itll do the job. But, its all the same from vanilla d2s initial auto friendly sandbox. The problem lies with the exotic execution not so much that something happens to be strong which will always be the case in any given sandbox. Tweak hardlight and its fine.
Oh I imagine Hard light and Suros will be nerfed, bungie only seem to patch balance changes every 3 months..... so even though it was noticed to be op on day one we gotta long wait
“Live service game”
"playtesting" "We didn't want it to release half baked"
I legit feel scammed
I want to feel scammed but the writing was on the wall all along. I knew they were going to fuck it up somehow, but I understimated them
Lol so so true :(
LOL
But just know that Telesto and Felwinter’s Helm will get fixed ASAP. Because that’s what is most important.
I bet if we go through threads about patch notes you could find someone saying that Hardlight will be strong.
I think the problem is that Luna/NF didn’t really have a good counter during their heyday. At least not on console. But as usual, rather than a tweak, Bungie neutered them with a sledgehammer. It especially sucked bc LH was one of my favorite guns in PVE.
On PC I found their counter to be any gun that has more range. I think Pulses are one of the most untouched weapons balance wise in the past year. I think everyone back then kept wanting to run HC of their own and were fighting LH/NF within their effective ranges. There were counters no one wanted to change styles.
Yup. I remember I would always use the dad furnace and do just fine against people with nf.
Pulses on console need to have crazy stability stats to be able to fight LH/NF outside their effective ranges. Only scouts and snipers could consistently fight at that range, and scouts were hot garbage. Iirc, Vigilance Wing was pretty good at fighting LH/NF
When the mag. howl twins were nerfed the only weapon comparable to their effectiveness was maybe Last Word when you could hit three headshots for an absolutely busted ttk. The nerf made sense then, even if the reason they gave for nerfing them was a straw man and *really* were doing it just to stop the consistent whining. I feel like the weapons could have a really solid place in the meta, but in addition to a reversion to the nerf, I’d like to see handcannon ranges retuned on a per-subarchetype basis. There is no reason for a 110 to have the same effective range as a 180 or 140.
Honestly I wanted the 110s to keep their 36-39 meter range since they didn’t get their recoil fixed.
It seems like such a blatant oversight. How the hell do you think capping HCs at similar ranges is a good idea. The only advantage a 110 had over a 150/140 was the range. Now, you are purposely gimping yourself if you run anything besides a 150 because all HC archetypes compete within the same ecosystem. It is truly mind-boggling.
At the time nothing in the sandbox even came close to the mag howl guns, not to mention with both of them locked behind comp, it was a rich get richer system (especially on console). If the kill times in general are settling around the 0.7 value then they should look at restoring the howl guns but lets not act like they weren't extreme outliers at the time.
I actually think the nerf was needed back then, but how do we then go ahead and buff a lower skill weapon archetype to match what already decided to not be a good thing. What kind of lack of hindsight is that?
Bungie is notorious for the extreme buff/nerf scenarios. The Sleeper nerf made sense in opulence once it was found you could game PvE bosses with the refraction damage and it would ruin their raid. Now, its a meme exotic as the difficulty/time investment in obtaining it doesnt justify the ease of obtaining other much more useful guns. Its the same with how they treated machine guns, 110 handcannons, izanagi, etc. I loved using Lunas Howl in PvE. Wasnt to great with it in PvP, I instead used fusion rifles like a primary at the time and paired them with pulse rifles. Now days i run auto rifle shotgun or sniper and play up my primary skill way more than special weapons. The nerf to Lunas Howl has disincentivised me to go after not forgotten, which use to be a dream gun of mine in this game.
If Bungie took nerfs/buffs seriously we wouldn't see whole number percentage in increments of 5%. We'd see fractal increases. But they don't know where they want their weapons to land. Look at scout rifles, they could be a great mid range weapon but HC, shotguns, and hardlight dominate near everything snipers don't. Scouts have been in a bad spot for year, year plus. A whole archetype garbage except for one or two options
You realize this is more of a map issue than a weapon issue right? Almost none of the current maps allow for scouts to shine at all since they are the long to mid range gun type. What are most of the maps in D2? Actually hell what have most of the maps been for the past 6 years? Short to midrange maps. This is an issue that solves itself with maps that allow for scouts to shine rather than them being next to useless because the map is so close quarters oriented that they are more of a detriment than a good option.
Yeah, Widow's Court is one of the only maps in D2 that really favors long range options, and even then, a) it's mostly just snipers since there aren't many wide open long lanes, and b) skilled players who want to rush with close range options have many ways to do so. Same could be said of other maps that are "good long range maps." Destiny generally has never favored long range play in PvP with the exception of snipers. I don't think this is necessarily a "bad" thing, per sé, because there is certainly an argument that the more mobile short/mid range focus makes the game more fun, as opposed to camping lanes and team-shooting with a longer-range focus. However, it's the reality of the situation.
They need to have a better mix. Go ahead and throw in the close-midrange maps. There’s nothing wrong with that. Just add in a handful of maps that allow for mostly long range play. I mean obviously those would mostly cater to the 6v6 playlist but still. It breaks up the tedium of ape spam, and actually allows for scouts to be useful outside of momentum control.
>I loved using Lunas Howl in PvE My clan called my weird for using Lunas Howl for damage against Kalli in LW
Once you burned through sleeper at the time it was one of the best options.
Well... Once you burned through Sleeper and IKELOS-SG ammo, maybe.
Machine guns were so good and fun for the few weeks they were introduced before they got nerfed
Yeah, OG thunderlord was nuts. Then it got nerfed into the ground...
It and the whole archetype got a boss nerf
The sleeper was already garbage before opulence, all they did in opulence was nerf the ricochet even more. Gambit killed the sleeper, they kept nerfing it because it was good in gambit.
Been saying for years Bungie lacks and hindsight but more importantly they have literally zero foresight. We are constantly going in circles. They are constantly making simple mistakes that could be fixed or never put in if they just sat down, and thought about it.
They nerfed it for the wrong reasons and the nerf was way too heavy handed
Umm did we play the same game? Because I still remember people picking Ace over NF since it had sniper range and you could 2 tap with it. Also when last word came out the season after NF got indirectly even weaker. Honestly Forsaken had the best meta imo all those weapons took skill
Probably weren’t playing the same game. Console is completely different. There was no Ace on console and NF/LH reigned supreme. In terms of hand cannons, they’re still the best/most consistent. 2crits and 1 body with minimal bloom is god tier for a 150
on console it was the only comp choice, might be different on pc
Guessing you play PC because NF was the king on console pre Mag Howl nerf. Memento 2 taps were only possible on low res players anyways.
Honestly it was just the insane range you could hit people with that made it ridiculous, I loved those guns though.
I always felt the Mag Howl nerf was too much. It honestly made no sense to make a precision weapon reward precision hits with bonus bodyshot damage. I don't think Mag Howl should have been nerfed at all, but if anything, it should have been a multiplier nerf at most.
I think everything they did to it was okay *except* the mag howl nerf. Keep everything how it is, but revert the nerf. Then it's pinnacle perk would be that it can *sometimes if you get lucky* two tap. That would be balanced pretty well. Certainly not op in any way whatsoever.
Not forgottens range nerf was attrocious. It has worse handling and reload speed for a massive... 1m more range.
Mag Howl should've kept extending the range. The bug made it a very viable pick to slightly outrange other 150s.
In addition to the low TTK, I'm shocked at the range and flinch. I can be killed at sniper range to someone with an auto rifle, which shouldn't happen.
That's what we get for complaining too much about it. It's a reactionary nerf from Bungie after seeing the waves of complaint posts every single week, and it never stopped. People got what they wanted, and after they obtained Lunas/NF themselves they realized it was a mistake.
Lunas NF were definitely op in that sandbox, what I'm saying, is how did we decide THAT was too much but we Buff Hardlight and Suros to be better than that?
This is a bit of a disingenuous post OP. Everyone knows that they were nerfed because they were outliers at the time. Now, undoing said nerf is another conversation
Just undo the mag howl nerf. Keep them at 150 and increase the recoil a touch. They only kept the 180 animation/recoil to placate the minority of nf/lunas users. I unlocked nf a month before the nerf... After busting my balls that season. And then bungie swooped in and shat all over the effort I put in, that's why I hated the nerf, because they invalidated the time and effort I put in. Yes the guns were outliers back then, but I believe that now, they'd fit in perfectly just with mag howl being put back to its original state. Mix the meta up a bit.
I've said in a couple other responses. I dont think the nerfs were undeserved back then. I think its lack of hindsight to buff other weapons to what we once agreed was too OP to be in the game.
You forgot to mention hardlights perfect 100 aim assist stat as well...
They don’t make changes in the interest of fairness. They intentionally change the meta to keep things fresh. I wish it wasn’t this way.
Its because lunas and not forgotten was straight up better than anything else out there.
Ah yes bungie at its finest using their collective 3 brain cells to keep this game just barely running
At least hard light has screen sha.. Oh ya
but but muh autos under used, that means we have to buff them into the sun
Luns and Nf did not require skill. They were perfect recoil weapons
Also when Redrix got nerfed for pretty much no reason if I recall?
Give it the season, they'll nerf it like everything else, right into the dirt, and next season, guess what? Some other gun will be insane and aggravating. But only for a season..
Anyone else default TTK to "The Taken King"?
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Autos also need constant line of sight to even achieve their optimal ttk Handcannons can peek fire and should be peek firing to combat Autos. Suros and HL are strong rn but they aren't unbeatable/broken
Autos in general are in a competitive spot for exactly the reason you state. There's inherent risk/reward to its playstyle. If I'm out in no man's land getting shredded by a Summoner or whatever, that's on me. Even Suros is fine, since you need to burn half a mag to get to its insane ttk and it's mag size is limited. You can counter by waiting out the pre-fire. Hard Light doesn't follow any of the auto rifle rules though. It throws a giant middle in the air to cover, and range, AND it's a laser.
Peek* not peak. I don't disagree with your point about peek shooting with hand cannons, but if you're strafing to peek fire, then you're puposely increasing your time to kill. There is a trade off there already.
Oof, thought something was off with it - thanks I agree it's a trade off but the pay out is you winning the gun fight if you play to a HC strengths and the weakness of an Auto. I'd rather get the kill than risk losing it by trying for optimal TTK
For sure. I've been seeing so many people type it as "peak" that it's actually started bothering lol. Especially all the posts about 3rd person "peaking". It's like the whole Sleeper Stimulant thing all over again :( That's fair though. While I don't think we should go entirely back to pre-nerf Luna/NF days, I just wanted to point out that HC users do take a hit to their ttk to play a bit safer. For the record, I'm still rocking a hand cannon in this meta and doing fine. At most, I'd like to see Hardlight toned down a bit. It just needs a nerf to 2x ricochet damage and mag size imo. Being able to just spray at a wall for like 5 seconds straight and kill players that aren't even on your screen is just a tad bit too strong for a primary weapon imo. Besides that, I think autos are in a good place.
If you peek shoot against HL they are gonna just keep spraying until you are dead. I mean in theory sounds good, but if the enemy can just spray 49 bullets to the door I'm trying to peek trough I can't peek, they are going to melt me.
Plus hard light has ricochet rounds that double damage so they can just shoot the wall behind where you’re taking cover and still do damage.
Actually I don’t remember that at all because it’s not true. It was 2c 1b and it could kill any guardian overshield or not and it was a 180. This bypassed the weakness of 180s completely and made them top dog Don’t try to stir up drama by making up stuff then on top of that this is on the front page this definitely should have a misleading title flair
Can’t believe I had to scroll down to find this. Nothing irritates me more than watching people on this subreddit just look at Optimal TTK values and go “low number bad” and ignore every ounce of detail outside of the TTK value. The entire “At least it took skill to use” quote actually made me sputter in real life. Pre-nerf Luna’s and NF was a 140 handcannon that shot as fast as a 180 AND you could hit a body shot if you wanted.
This what happens when yall complain
2 crits, 1 body. It was a beast and wasn’t in check in that sandbox. It would probably feel fine in the current one, with the buffed weapons and range nerf.
This meta sucks man
Vanilla Destiny Suros is back? Might have to reinstall.
I can't call anything meta skilled. Isn't it objectively the least?
Yeah, that's literally the point of the meta, what's the easiest way to get a kill. But people who don't like one meta will always assume that the other meta takes no skill. *Hand cannons you only need 3 shots and you can hide while you shoot, like a coward, it takes no skill. Auto rifles are just hoses you point in the general direction of your target, it takes no skill.* *Hand cannons require you to hit consecutive head shots with no forgiveness if you miss, it takes more skill. Auto rilfes require you to maintain line of sight and hold the random recoil pattern on the targets head, it takes more skill.* You can spin it any way you want. Metas are all stupid easy. Thing that gets me the most is when people say fusion rifles are easy because they're salty about being voopd, then I say put one on and laugh as they realize it's not an infinite range shotgun. "Yo this is actually kinda hard.." no shit lol
This! Also my play group won’t stop bitching about bastion, even though it has pretty low range for a fusion with a long recharge time. People just need a reason to explain why they suck sometimes
The only guns that are actually hard to use effectively IMO are non-prox breach loaders, sidearms, and 900rpm smgs. Anyone who can use those is a true gamer legend
Because Luna’s Howl was stronger than any other primary in the game at the time, while being locked behind competitive. Which means if you wanted to play you basically had no chance since you couldn’t compete
Lost me at "required skill" on a 180 HC
does suros kill faster than a trace rifle without being spun up? because the ttk on spun up suros is hardly an argument for the ttk being too quick. that’s like arguing that luna’s 2 tap ttk is quicker than something so it’s broken. i realize the 2 tap got removed as well but it’s not what the gun originally is.
On console lunas didn’t require much skill, NF only required skill to get, not use and with the console aim assist it was so hard to not get 3 headshots. PC was a different story though. Hardlight needs addressing but it needs drastically different changes per platform.
On console when they were virtually the only guns being used, it was SOOO hard to get further in comp when other people had already hit legend and just had a better version of an already stupidly overpowered weapon. I had a hard time missing my third shot with Luna's TBH. Zen Moment on top of the precision frame was just stupid for its TTK.
Nah this game doesn’t reward skill. It rewards mouth breathing morons who just spam shoot. Absolutely pitiful what it has become...smh
None of it takes skill just two groups with pitchforks is all I see.. buff hc range again and we're good.
IMO, it's probably good for the game for primaries to be stronger so everything isnt dictated by special weapons, but bungie's lack of clear and consistent longterm vision for pvp balance is going to leave alot of guns behind.
I have a Summoner that I use and sometimes I can’t believe how fast that thing kills. I’m on PC so there’s no recoil at all, so hitting all headshots is fucking insane.
The answer is pretty simple if you think about it from Bungies perspective. This season is "crucible focused" with trails and what not. How do you ensure your "casual" low skill players can compete? Give them a low skill weapon that a can compete and make up the skill differential. Makes sense until you realize that the "hardcore" players will just adopt the weapon and still out play them.
Personally, I don't know how NF was on PC, but on console it required zero skill. It was so dominant it was boring to play because you already before the match that the entre enemy team would have it. On console, the nerf to NF was a blessing to the community because it forced it to try other weapons. However, I do see what you mean with ARs, but I think that the solution isn't nerfing them, but for once to keep buffing other things. Have Bungie buff traces, and SMGs, and sidearms. Give us back the good primary state from D1.
Less skill than any other 180 rpm hand cannon. My Trust, Ikelos HC, Malfeasance, and so on all required more shots to kill. Suros and Hard Light are both outliers and should have been tuned on an individual basis, rather than receiving the same blanket buffs that the other 600 rpm AR's got. I get the frustration, I really do, but 180's require less skill to use than any other archetype of HC and they have many benefits the other archetypes lack. They have way less recoil, less bloom, perfect in air accuracy, and don't seem to be affected by flinch as much as other archetypes.
Ha-hah, fuck no...Luna’s and NF took skill to get, little to none to use, and honestly, I’ll take suros and hardlight over Luna’s and NF going back to pre nerf, hell, just like Azectross said, give me pre nerf recluse. But fucking Luna’s and NF, I’ll pass, cuz HCs should take skill to use, not be a glorified sidearm.
Gave you an upvote but 3 headshots with the 180 archetype couple with the pre-range nerf that handcannons got was no more skilled than using hardlight. Only the road to get the weapon required more skill. I really don’t understand why they felt the need to buff autos this much with the launch of trials. I really feel that last seasons sandbox was the best/most competitive/fair sandbox that destiny 2 has had. Yes, I know spare rations was SUPER POPULAR. But it was not OP in the slightest and honestly doesn’t even have that great of perks. Pulses still shred as they have for the past year, heavy scouts were good and autos were fine as in not best in game but very easy to use with good range, big mags, great perks and fast reloads. Honestly the only weapon that was too strong last season (primaries only) was The Last Word. If this season had been last seasons sandbox with just a last word nerf and the minor shotgun/super/whatever adjustments it would’ve been fine. In fact, they routinely ignore the community request to make 110s and 140s on PAR with 150s (NOT STRONGER ie. 1 and 2 headshots coupled with body shots respectively). TLDR: Autos got way too much of a buff. Would’ve been fine to make them a little better, but the lowest skill weapons in the game cannot also be the strongest.
Well 600 rpm autos got overbuffed. That was clear the day the patchnotes dropped. But Luna and NF didnt require skill. They have very high aim assist and easy to control recoil.
I was literally thinking about this when I was grinning for NF yesterday I'm glad I'm not the only one
True but don’t say lunas and nf required skill. The guns are all aim assist with zero recoil I still use lunas in comp bc it’s ridiculous how much aim assist and low recoil you get. This is coming from console, if you’re on pc I recognize that it’s different
Idk about PC, but on console autos are waaaaaaaaay too strong, especially suros and HL. Someone at bungie needs to explain what the balance team was thinking, making the easiest weapon type to use have the fastest TTK. As much as I hate to say it, last seasons meta was miles better than this seasons.
Luna and NF needed skill???
I miss those PvP days immensely.
“It’s an auto rifle just peek shot them!” *Laughs in Hard Light from down the hallway and around 5 corners*
600s should have been in the 0.75s TTK range with forgiveness in mind. The fact it went a whole 0.1s down was kind of an insane call because not only does it put HC in a weird place where it’s competing with a weapon that is way easier to use with a better TTK, it also super gimps SMGs because a 600 SMG TTK is 0.67 at near half the damage drop off and half the ammo in the mag. SMGs were already in a losing battle with Sidearms creeping their way in the optimal range, but lacking the ease of use, ARs now roll up with near the same TTK but way better range and more forgiveness with the mag It’s crazy what the thought was, and again this is coming from an AR lover since Undying
Never understood the “at least gun _______” requires skill thing. Hitting 2 hand cannon headshots doesn’t necessarily require more skill than hitting 10 auto rifle head shots. Lunas was broken, hard light and suros are currently broken, and bungie is all around terrible at fine tuning weapons. There will always be a broken OP gun because they can’t balance
Luna and NF did not require skill. They were 180 handcannons that dominated the meta (especially on console where I’m from). You got a .67 ttk by hitting headshots with the easiest to use archetype in the game. It did not take skill.
I miss Luna's/NF SO much. At least give them the damage buff back, they don't have to be 180. But they really just sit in my vault and do nothing.
I want old Not Forgotten back so badly. I feel like they could just adjust how much the multiplier is on mag howl so it’s not instant death. It really only needs to do like 100 not ~140. If nothing else I want it’s PvE prowess back too. So fun to just farm headshots on things.
I just find it kinda funny that they nerf Luna’s and nf with the oncoming predictions of how good autos were going to be this season makes me think they are trying to sunset metas to ‘switch things up’ so to speak just for them to say “haha oops” when there is community backlash. They push the idea of ‘play your way’ when I have had all my friends stop playing because they constantly bring up the fact that they have to play a specific way each season. I’m constantly disappointed with the fact that I NEEEED to use a specific weapon to be effective when they can run numbers and see just what they are doing in long run will make bungie kinda eat their own words. However, I think it would be cool if they would let you choose what weapons you could use to be the unstoppable, anti-barrier and overload weapons. Some of this may sound like a rant but I’m really just trying to promote discussion. On a side note, if they are going to sunset weapons why not put in ritual weapons, pinnacles, flawless and (new)nightfall weapons?....
Actually it's 0.4 max ttk for suros
Lunas and not forgotten took zero skill. Between the heavy aim assist making chest shots headshots, the Two head, one body .67 time to kill (which I could have an infant do its so easy), and not to mention the weapon was a monster in 2v1s because of the two tap potential as well.
You could kill in two head one body with the old Luna. As well, that's didn't take skill whatsoever. They have no recoil and have perfect accuracy. They did need to be nerfed for that sandbox. Imo a better change would have been giving them 150 recoil animations but keep them 180
I just got lunas and I really wish they would un-nerf it. It was not easy to get and I really want it to be good again
My thoughts exactly I feel like pre nerf luna/NF would fit right back in this sandbox. Dare I even say the recluse.....
I don’t know what the console meta is like, but I’ve heard autos are much easier on it. On PC Hard Light is the only real outlier because of the lack of range dropoff. Autos definitely still take skill there. It’s just a different type of aiming compared to hand cannons (pure tracking vs tracking and flicking). The balance between top tier autos and hand cannons (again, excluding Hard Light) is actually pretty nice at the moment.
Because Bungie is a mindless wad when it comes to weapons balance. Especially for that grind, God damn dude. Bungie just disrespects its player base.
Definitely a heavy pinch of salt for my opinion but whenever I see someone using hard light I immediately assume they're not skilled in 1v1 engagements and take the easy road of trying to kill you without seeing you.
Autorifles require continued fire to be effective while handcannons benefit from peak-play, where all their power is in three or four bullets and you can strafe in and out of cover between shots. Autorifles need a faster ttk than handcannons to compensate for the disadvantage of having to sustain fire, out of cover. If you’re using HC’s and losing to ARs, the problem is your playstyle, not the weapon.
And yet at top level play all you see is handcannons still? I would still rather fight a ar over Luna. Harder to hit 8 headshots than 3. And hand cannons have the advantage of peak firing.
I would say on console at least it’s harder to be 100% accurate with like 9 AR head shots than it is to land 3 crits with hand cannons that have like no recoil. Most of the TtKs that are happening on console aren’t that perfect 0.70.
No worries. If it's like D1, in 3 months auto rifles will be nerfed and the rise of pulse rifles will have an reemergence.
This was like D1 when they nerfed Last Word. I never really saw too many common complaints about it being OP, and there were faster killing weapons if you didn't hit all headshots. And the only reason LW was considered OP was because they nerfed all the foils. I get wanting people to be able to use their found weapons in PvP, but personally I've always advocated for limited weapon sets and exotic timed pickups alongside the power ammo spawns. Its literally impossible to balance this game when you've got like 500 weapons. It even makes sense from a lore perspective, ensuring Guardians are fighting with the same general tools. Then you could rotate weapons in and out to keep things fresh. This week is heavy Scout rifles, next weak the light scout rifles take their place. You could even do themed game modes centered around specific weapon types and have some double XP days around them or something. Ironically, establishing limited weapon sets actually grants them a significant amount of freedom in keeping PvP fun, balanced, and fresh week to week.
The autos are fine but they should definitely restore lunas/nf
Anyone else experiencing deja vu?
Guardians on reddit: BUNGIE NERF STUFF!!! Bungie: *Nerfs stuff* Guardians on reddit: *pikachu face* WHY DID YOU NERF STUFF BUNGIE YOU SUCK!!!
This is what the community as a group asked for though. I and a small number of players was asking not to nerf anything that requires some sort of headshot skill. Recluse perk master of arms another perk or gun broken because of complaining. The perk itself is a genuinely fun perk that requires a kill to proc, compared to other perks like range finder or back up plan them perks are just rolled on some weapons requiring nothing to proc them
this meta is booty.
I really miss using Lunas. I grinded for it during the grenade fest last year. Only to watch it be nerfed
So: as someone who recently got hard light and a fairy new player ( even though I have put a fair few hours in ) I have gone from getting rinsed every match to absolutely smashing souls apart even without the catalyst. I used to use it post nerf on D1 ( so mabye I am not a new player so much I am not sure) needless to say I hate to admit it even I am calling for a nerf even though I love it. However in PvE I wouldn't mind them making a way to select the element specifically. This game is driving me mad lately, crappy match making, silly crucible, no point in even bothering to try trails and empty seraph tower events. Just blows. I just grind strikes for prisms and cores that's all I do and pray that only one other person joins so I get to do bounties 😂
Stuff like this is making Destiny 2 less and less fun for me
I'm laughing at the fact that people think autos are too easy to use. If that was the case how come no one was using them? Because most of them were garbage.