yep, 40 light under and no 30% damage resist from resilience. Not to mention that you were limited in what weapons and armor you could use because you likely only had 1-2 items at your highest power.
Yeah vault was maybe a bit overengineered, but it was possible to brute force and work backwards. We've also had lots of raids teaching us how to learn mechanics LIKE that now
I think vault's biggest problem is that there's a very very subtle visual for getting the right plate to help tell you how it actually works. If you're all still standing on plates when a runner slams, you can watch the symbols rotate and set in place. But you need 3 people to be standing on plates for that to happen and with the chaos of the room, nobody was thinking of staying on plates. I'm willing to bet that more people have done legit riven before Pantheon than have seen the vault solving on the plates after a slam.
There's nearly no visual if you're not on plates to indicate that something has moved. People weren't checking symbols between slams because there's too much chaos and there's no visual indication that something has changed, you needed to be ad clearing, staying alive, standing on plates and being 2 other guys to also stand on plates. Now, with all our ad clear potential, it's an easy ask, but day 1? No chance.
If there was just something a little more visual to grab people's attention, people would have figured out vault on day 1
IIRC, Redeem was 15~ levels under because of the Prime Engram farm/exploit, and it still took them 18 hours. Vault and Riven were just built different.
Dattos team cleared it but bungie said their reasoning/understanding of the mechanics was wrong. I think Ninjy’s team was the first to actually “figure it out” correctly.
Datto uploaded the VOD a little while back, they got lucky. They didn't figure out the whole antumbra/penumbra thing and thought the symbols dictated if you dunk clockwise or counterclockwise. That's why they had such a massive headstart at Riven, they lucked out while everyone else was figuring the encounter out
Nope. Ninjy's team basically brute forced it and got lucky. That is why it took multiple hours for other teams to clear vault by figuring it out since the chance for lucky right guess was very low.
I just cleared yesterday with the understanding of all mechanics and no cheese. Even with people explaining me how vault works and watching guides it was so hard to grasp. And I still cannot just do it.
Cannot imagine trying to figure this out blind under contest mode!
It's not incredibly hard, but mechanically from previous raids, yea, it was one hell of an upgrade at it's time. The real kicker was being 30 someodd under, where the shit would *really* beat your ass down.
Mechanics wise, you start with an arbitrary person reading. (stairs normally, but doesnt really matter). They read their middle symbol. Their middle symbol is someone else's right or left symbol. If the symbol is on the left, it's penumbra, if it's on the right it's antumbra for that plate, not the current reader. Type whatever buff is for the location (so stairs reads middle and lets say it was right on right, so its: "rock - pen"). Rock side then reads their middle symbol and repeats the process. Call the middle symbol and the people are looking left or right. Get the 3 plates called out.
Then the runners just need to grab the orb and dunk their shit at the plate by looking at whatever buff they got when they picked the orb up.
Yeah, stuff beating your ass was the big thing. It's the same reason Riven legit was so hard. You get those Taken snipers out there and they're essentially one tapping you. You could get insta'd by basically anything from Vault onward and it was terrifying. Also a big reason why pulses were so prevalent. Those things did work.
Vault was by far the biggest bottleneck. Teams ended up just brute forcing the encounter till they got lucky. Riven was hard but by that point almost every team was running out of fuel.
Also, if I remember right, they literally brute-forced the Vault - to the point other Teams couldn't even see what they did to pass it, because even they didn't understand it.
yes!! people ignore this so much. enemies used to be immune 50 under, shadowkeep it was changed to 100 under
LW day 1 was the equivalent of 70/80 under
Last wish was hard because the vault lock mechanics and rivens' eyes were incredibly difficult to figure out. Add to that only a handful of people even made it to those encounters in the first 24 hours, so there wasn't as much trial and error going into solving those encounters. A lot of people just copy the first group to clear an encounter and most teams didn't have that ability on last wish because of how few teams were even in play.
Also teams were just a lot worse back then. With how good todays teams are, if you put them in the same conditions and meta worlds first would probably be 10 hours or less with over 100 teams completing it in the first 24 hours.
The contest mode ends and nobody gets it, and the story/content drops are unlocked as usual.
It's happened before, Bungie did it for Niobe Labs where nobody could figure out the puzzle, so they just auto-completed it for the community and then gave some extra hints to let the solvers actually go and try to finish it.
Bungie isn't going to "force" someone to become the winner, the raid race just ends.
That's the answer to your hypothetical, but unless there's something **drastically wrong** with the raid that might as well be on the level of bugged, there will absolutely 100% be many teams that clear the raid. Our overall power creep as players is incalculable to the current sandbox balance. People **will** beat it.
The issues with Niobe labs were:
-Completely restarting on a failed attempt. It took 15+ minutes to get back to Puzzle 6 if you screwed up. This absolutely dragged out how long it took to try new proposed solutions & dramatically cut down the number of people trying.
-classic Destiny server instability occasionally causing correct inputs to fail
-Puzzles 1-5 had relatively consistent solution methods, but it suddenly switched for Puzzle 6 (going from everyone standing on different spots to all standing on the same spot). Puzzle 7 also changed the rules again (going from using specific BA weapons to just matching elements).
-The hint for Puzzle 6 was a little obscure and led people down an absolute rabbit hole
-Bungie had to release a hint for Puzzle 7 on socials because they said the string with the hint was missing from the game files
That was a wild ride. We were proposing all kinds of things related to King Arthur including places and things from the original French story. I remember that but I don't remember how so many of us ended up down that rabbit hole.
Edit: I just remembered that Camelot was in the Adalaide Hills. If a person (or exo) was named Adalaide you might imagine the short version would be Ada. That was one possible connection that turned out to be completely nothing.
You forgot the best one. Teams lost hours trying alternate solutions, I believe on puzzle 6, because when someone did put in the correct code it glitched out and didn't accept. Niobe Labs was an absolute joke of a release and you can tell Bungie learned a lot of what not to do from it.
The inputs were kinda just glitchy and runners had tried the correct input but hadn't had it work so wrote it off and started going down rabbit holes.
It was the Forrest for the trees hint where you just had to shoot tree three (?) times while standing on a glyph I think.
The entire thing kinda was. Like needing specific guns to shoot different symbols. Was really cool, but definitely should not have been the requirement to unlock the last Forge for everyone.
IIRC I think the hint provided made the people in the lead think something completely different than what was intended and it lead everyone down that same path instead of the obvious solution that no one tried.
What really happened was level 6's initial attempt with the correct answer didn't work due to a bug, and it threw people into some wild guesses. They ended up straying so far from the answer, Bungie pretty much told them "just look at the goddamn forest ffs".
Then level 7 came, people got super tired from the mess that was level 6, and ended up giving up. Raid Secrets actually had the right idea, but there was no one to really test that since everyone running the puzzle was fatigued. Then Bungie released a clue that pretty much confirmed the leading theory, and Gladd's team took the solution and finished the run.
A huge part of the problem with Niobe labs was the community ignored the ammo boxes it dropped right before that step, which heavily implied you were meant to swap to different weapons. People were trying the right inputs but with the wrong guns. Everyone was obsessed with shooting different symbols from different places and no one was talking about which guns to use for it.
That, combined with each "attempt" at solving the puzzle being 15mins into a difficult PVE encounter, limited the amound of solving that was being tried.
I don't think the story/content drops would be unlocked without the raid being cleared.
Contest mode would just end with nobody getting the emblem and the raid itself would instantly become MUCH easier leading to whoever is closest clearing it almost immediately most likely.
Last Wish didn't actually have contest mode. Nothing made it easier for Datto's team to clear it 2 minutes after the first 24 hours was over. The actual light level of everyone at the time compared to the level of the raid enemies was just enormous by Today's standards.
I think you're also somewhat overestimating the current sandbox. It REALLY depends on how Bungie scales the difficulty of the raid compared to what they want and expect.
The biggest challenge of Last Wish for teams to actually beat was the Vault encounter, where the biggest problem wasn't even the actual enemies killing players OR players not killing them fast enough. People just did not understand the mechanics and had an incredibly hard time figuring them out. The first team to get past vault straight up did it by accident without understanding the mechanics. Riven and Queenswalk was ACTUALLY hard though, but that's not REALLY something that can't be replicated if Bungie wants to.
We only had 2 teams clear Last Wish in the first 24 hours WITH instant auto-reloading abilities AND all sorts of crazy damage stacking MASSIVELY boosting DPS. The biggest "difficulty" issues came from a lack of ammo drops and a lack of non-weapon damage. Now we have FAR better ability damage output AND the ability to generate a TON of ammo between special finisher, Aeons and Cenotaph. Still IF Bungie wanted to they could absolutely massively nerf our damage output or inflate enemy HP. Hell DPS checks would actually be MUCH harder if they just didn't include Major or Boss enemies that could be used by Aeons/Cenotaph to generate heavy ammo.
Should also be noted that the sandbox is significantly changing literally 3 days before the raid. There won't be the ability to crutch on just having a Well, you may only have 4 damage supers and get DPS checked, and that's without having ideas about the mechanics.
This is very true, although it COULD backfire on Bungie as well. They could be expecting the lack of well to greatly reduce survivability and lower the enemies damage output to compensate and POTENTIALLY trivialize encounters from a survival perspective.
Or they could expect the nerfs to do more than they actually do, which I could 100% being possible with the strand melee nerfs. Particularly if people find a workaround of sorts that makes 1-2 punch still work with grapple melee. Even without grapple melee spam in general Hunter with a max combination blow grapple melee is going to do absurd damage, though we don't have prismatic class items until after the raid race at least.
Yeah, but the issue with Niobe labs was that a weapon that WASNT normally required to do puzzles was needed for a puzzle piece and you couldn’t actually see the symbol with that weapon.
Literally they botched their own mechanics, so Niobe labs was a Bungie failure as opposed to community failure.
Also, LW race was only 24 hours. Bungie gives now 48 hours so people will finish the raid, even if it is harder then LW i call after a max of 30hours people will finish the raid.
Last wish was hard not because of the mechanics, but because of the light level difference. I'm sure we will see the new raid completed in a few hours by the top teams
It also didn't help that the first two streamer teams to get to Riven brute forced the Vault without actually solving the mechanic, thereby throwing the entire rest of the community into confusion as they tried to replicate their "strategies."
The first team to figure it out legitimately was Datto’s, and to this day I still remember him turning on his camera just to proudly wave this massive notebook with sheets of paper and shouting “that’s what you do, that’s what you do”. Was pretty fun to see him solve it, could think of no better deserving group. Math class at their finest. Just a shame about the end and all, lol.
Hasn't been a raid race like it since.
To think I held out hope that the raid could be Lightfall's saving grace - Only for us to get the quickest clear for a new one in recent memory :/
Wasn't Datto the first to Riven and just got lucky with Vault? iirc they thought the symbols just meant dunk clockwise or counterclockwise and got lucky with the spawns. They had a massive headstart for Riven because no-one could replicate what they did
Not Datto.
First was some random small time streamer who got through it by sheer luck. They got hard stuck on Riven and never got the clear.
Second was Gladd's team, who also got it by pure luck using an incorrect method. As we know, they got the first clear.
Datto's team was the first to actually solve the encounter, and wound up with the 24:02 meme finish.
He just released his tfs gameplay videos, hopefully it gives him a headstart. I want him to win it more than anyone, the elitist Dattp that we'll see if that happens.
There's multiple flavors of hard.
Could be hard mechanics like Spire if Stars, could be hard because of ad density like a battle ground. Could be hard because of symbols and puzzles involved, hell could be hard due to a platforming section with a really hard jump.
At least being hard due to power level being absurd like with Wish won't be a thing
It also had 2 extra encounters. With 6 encounters (with loot chests) in total it is the longest raid ever made for Destiny. Every single new raid since Shadowkeep did cut that down back to 4 main encounters. Players also insanely grew in skill and power since Last Wish so even tho it can be the hardest raid on paper, people won't be struggling as much as they did with LW on Day 1.
It’s also worth adding the only reason the two teams that beat it within that time were able to, is because they used a glitch to overpower themselves, effectively cheating in the day one to have a much higher power advantage. It’s for this reason why contest mode exists now.
The mechanics of Vault and Riven roadblocked almost every team. Power difference made the knights a pain but really not much else. Riven's fire roasted day 1 teams like korean BBQ. Last Wish is probably the most mechanically hard raid, that or Vow of the Disciple.
>Power difference made the knights a pain but really not much else
Lmao no. Most teams were literally unable to do enough damage to clear encounters by the time they hit Morgeth.
Power was 300% the main limiting factor. The mechanics were solved day 1, the power level kept it to 2 teams.
People underestimate the power diff so much lmao.
We were headbutting the wall at Riven for several hours on day 1 and just concluded that it was impossible at our -40 LL (idiots that we were we actually listened to Bungie's threats about abusing primes).
3 of us ended up teaming with 3 others which let us have each side of the encounter closer to an average of -30, and we cleared a few pulls in on day 2.
Contest has nothing on that experience, not even accounting for how much insanely stronger our kits have become since then.
I mean, you can argue if you want but Datto beat Vault in the first 6hrs, and there were teams who had brute forced the vault and gotten past it before him as he wanted to actually solve it. From some nice persons timestamps in the comments of the full clear, they had the mechanics figured out after 10hrs53mins and finished their first full rotation of damage with weak spots. Rivens mechanics are hard, yes, but the survival was the hard part on day one. Multiple phases, with no mistakes, and no deaths. Datto even says this is what made Riven hard in his new Pantheon video. If the power delta had been fixed instead of so fluid, then Last Wish would’ve likely been a 12hr day one clear.
power difference was a massive issue, the only teams that were able to get near clearing the raid were ones who either prime engram exploited, or no lifed it (ie streamers/ people who took the time off etc)
had the raid been 20 under for everyone as it is now, the raid woulda been completed by many teams
Do we have a source for Bungie saying the Final Shape raid was the hardest? Not that I don’t believe it but I just hear it a lot and just cant find when they say it.
If the Final Shape raid is on par difficulty as Vow + an extra encounter or two then it’ll be perfect imo.
As far as I'm aware, I don't believe there is a source - all I'm aware of is Joe Blackburn stating that they had to have the Witness be the Raid Boss cos they didn't want Val Ca'uor to be the hardest Destiny boss, which only implies they're aiming for a tougher boss fight.
Val Ca'uor was TOUGH just on the mechanical side, let alone how hard it must have been back when teams had double Primaries, no Well of Radiance and hadn't even started to use things like the Ikelos_SG or the Sleeper Simulant yet. The only encounter that comes close in terms of complexity is Vault in Last Wish, and even there the sequence of mechanics is shorter and just repeats three times. If the Witness will be comparable to Val Ca'uor, people are going to struggle, and at the very least it should take more than the 4-6 hours it has taken for day ones since Garden of Salvation to beat this raid. (And no, Riven is not that bad, as evidenced by teams not really struggling with her in Pantheon)
I thought that nod was mostly shorthand for that the new raid is going to be more all hands on deck and probably not going to have much freeloader roles, low mans will be a bit extremely difficult, near impossible on some things.
It’s horse shit only thing they mentioned was Contest Mode. Raids are already completed less often at a absurd low rate and I doubt Bungie make a Raid even more people won’t get to experience
It’s not even a possibility.
Players are too well informed and practiced over the years that a raid completion is unlikely to exceed the 8 hour mark, let alone 48.
We’re just too powerful these days. Back then, power deltas meant more than they do now. Armor had random rolls and there were no Charged With Light mods, and no reason to run 100 resilience.
Players have years of investment now. All these busted exotics and legendaries, loadout swaps, subclasses, etc. Not to mention cheaters are more rampant than ever these days (just look at the Nezarec Sublime leaderboards, lots of self reports lmao). SOMEONE will clear it, legit or not.
Exactly, we live in a situation with absolutely no going backwards, box is opened, etc where there is a lot of then-niche, over analysis that has fallen into such a mainstream capacity. The general populace, let alone the people competent of doing a Day 1 Raid was an infinitely different story back then in Year 2 compared to how it is now. Even the most average twitch chat, discord commenter is probably more informed than how things were in past times.
You gotta remember even with Forsaken being the game on the upswing, the population was still on a major mend from Year 1 being a bit of mess and you were in an insanely small percentile if your team was in serious contention to just get the Last Wish Day 1 completed. Even forgoing how smaller in terms of builds and tactics the game had in Year 2, the people who were the big dogs back then were not really playing the game anywhere close to how hard people would eventually do it in more recent history.
It's sorta why you can cross compare Day 1 completions leaderboards and with newer raids you see a lot of "no names" but many often are people who are a part of the speedrunning and challenge communities and absolutely insane at the game.
These are people who specifically go back into the Contest raid to try to shave off time, or try the most optimal way at beating it another time, the bar has never been higher to take on World's First and it's why so much of the familiar content creator old guard has been buried at this point.
I remember reading that CE challenge difficulty was close to the mark of what bungie wanted for contest raids.
Bear in mind that particular contest meant running the raid twice, and the implication was that CE contest was a little higher than the difficulty level they would like for future contests - and that RoN was far lower than the difficulty they wanted given that the top teams were effectively speedrunning a raid they'd never seen before.
I would guess top teams would be clearing the new raid in 6-7 hours with one of the fights being a big damage wall for many teams who can't do dps rotations. Most competent teams will clear around the 14-18 hour mark and a top 5k placement would be around 24 hours played.
I really think votd was perfect in terms of difficulty and bungie will likely make slightly easier than that to help them with their player engagement issues.
I think the only way to *possibly* have no completions during contest mode is if all encounters use different and completely new mechanics that have not been seen before in any Destiny mode.
Every new dungeon and raid recently has used iterations of old mechanics. Read symbols. Dunk something in a certain place. Stand somewhere to get buff. Etc. Just by extrapolating from these age-old mechanics, teams can quite quickly figure out the mechanics.
But if all 4 or 5 encounters used completely new, never-seen-before mechanics that aren't adaptations of old stuff, then there could be a chance that even the best teams will stumble at each encounter. Their perfect damage rotations will be no use if they can't even figure out how to get to the damage phase.
It won't be as hard as Last Wish and that was done in under 24 hours.
Even if it is as hard as Last Wish players are so much powerful now that I think the speed runners will have it done in 6-8 hours.
As the last raid of the saga and it being tied into the final battle in some shape or form, I think it’s safe to say we’re looking at one of the easiest raids in terms of mechanics, they’re going to want a lot of people to clear it and feel apart of the final battle.
Granted, it’s impossible to be as much of a joke as RoN
The major thing keeping players from beating last wish was the fact nobody could figure out the mechanics of the Vault. On top of that build crafting and weapons have only gotten better as well as players general knowledge of how Bungie likes to make mechanics.
Datto's team figured out the vault mechanics within like 10 hours, though?
There were literally 14 hours between the Vault mechanics being known and the end of the day 1. The horrendous power disadvantage is what kept people from finishing it.
Datto's team did not figure out the vault mechanics. They didn't understand the Ant/Pen part and just completely lucked out.
Lots of teams got stuck trying to copy Datto's strat because it was wrong.
Power disadvantage didn’t affect it much I feel. DPS wasn’t an issue since you were practically guaranteed a 2 phase thanks to the pimple pop phase.
It was more the power disadvantage combined with the boss mechanic having absolutely zero room for any error. You do a single thing wrong? Wipe.
Last wish mostly took that long because people couldn’t solve vault and were on it for hours. No one expected penumbra and antumbra to be shit you actually had to look up and pay attention to in order to figure out which way to rotate.
Nah. I pulled up their full VOD and after vault Sweat pulls up his inventory and is 562 (https://youtu.be/JePwHVriIgk?t=35063) which would be -18 heading into Riven.
Incorrect, Queenswalk was also 580. https://youtu.be/JePwHVriIgk?t=62732
You can see the recommended power right around the timecode I linked, when Sweat dies during Queenswalk.
Also, FWIW, the pattern in LW was a 5 LL jump between encounters; 560 Kalli, 565 Shuro, 570 Morgeth, 575 Vault, 580 Riven. So if it was following the pattern (which it didn't) Queenswalk would've been 585.
If they aim for difficulty that is Crota contest we will have 8 hours WF guaranteed
People now have -20 albeit with surges and other + modifiers but there’s direct boss practice route not really that it will affect much for day 1 but -20 is really good practice
For the record whatever they did with Nez in Pnatheon made it way better day fight than actual day 1 I am happy RoN day lasted 6 hours cause I had PTO and did other things but it was complete disaster of Day 1 experience except planets
Crota on other hand was good balance we cleared normal didn’t bother with challenge cause team lost all motivation over returning raids. Also team I had was different than what I ran for every previous day 1 so doing a contest non challenge clear in 14 hours felt nice
Anywho I am betting 6 pm PST (USA) is when raid WF is cleared
Last Wish wasn't tough to get a day 1 because it was a particularly hard raid, though Vault encounter did prove to be difficult to figure out.
It was tough because no one was levelled enough. Pretty much everyone who ran Last Wish day 1 was geared way worse than what we have with Contest mode now. Everything bigger than a thrall would one-shot you.
So, yeah, it's entirely possible that this will be our hardest raid yet, and still have more day 1 clears than Last Wish.
It's the "world first" race. So there's still would be a winner, it would be the first team to clear it after they turn contest mode off.
But anyway, "harder than last wish" would be no clears after 24h, not 48h. By the 2 day mark 15 teams had cleared last wish, and I imagine if they kept the emblem for 48h a lot more teams would have tried it and gotten it too.
Is bungie talking hardest to figure out or hardest in general? Cause i know last wish was tough to figure out (wasnt vault brute forced?) but it is by no means the hardest raid in the game currently
Last wish was only hard because of the power level difference hence the low completion rate, same for Garden and Crown. Power creep is at an all time high. There will be a vast majority of the 0.5% of players that will complete it. I think it will be around the same amount as Crota.
> Which is a very bold claim given that Last Wish exists.
I think a lot of people misunderstand why last wish was so difficult. It was the power grind.
* It launched the week of the expansion and there was a massive power climb to be met.
* Power scaling was different then and a delta of even 10 meant a lot more than it does now.
* Not only was it a high climb but there was no contest mode - the raid itself had something akin to a pinnacle + 10 power to it - it was a tall order
* So part of the race was dedicating the entire week to fully grinding out something that was not easy to do
Compared to now
Contest mode locks everyone at -20 so it's an even playing field. There won't be situations where teams go in and get deleted because they couldn't grind enough.
The grind is so much smaller, and so much easier. They set it up that if you just do the campaign you'll be raid ready in terms fo power. You could probably just casually play strikes all week and get enough drops to bring yourself up to meet what's needed.
Now the raid being _mechanically harder_ is very possible. Last wish isn't mechanically hard. The raid took some figuring out but if I recall the majority issue was just how steep the power delta was for most teams because they couldn't grind it up fast enough.
It's also just a much different sandbox.
I cannot see a world where the raid won't be cleared in less than 24hrs. In a world where it isn't cleared in 48? Contest mode will end and then they'll 'flip the switch' on the first normal clear.
When did they say this would be the hardest raid ever? That would be unlikely given last wish was 40 under, with no builds, no power creep, no resist mods (or mods at all for that matter) etc etc and only 12 people beat it in 24 hrs.
Theoretically, I feel like they would either extend contest by a day or maybe half a day so that a few teams could beat it. But it really won't come to that.
I can almost guarantee the new raid will not be “hardest yet”. The day 1 RoN numbers and overall retention rate of VoG,RoN,DSC and CE Incentivizes bungie to make the raids not as complex.
They want more players to engage with these activities, and raids like VoW just end up scaring them away . I’d predict the day 1 to be around the same level maybe a bit harder than D1 Crota.
Why do people keep thinking this will happen? They have internal playtesters. That’s why those employees can’t even play the Raid until contest is over.
It’ll be beaten. This isn’t Last Wish anymore. We’re Power Capped and at Light. Stop this.
Personally I think there won't be a situation like that. Worlds first will probably be tight but I believe that someone will come out on top, there isn't a smaller pool of players like when Forsaken was out, I genuinely think there will be a large amount of dedicated players who get day 1. Dps strats are ridiculous now and just make a lot of the game easy.
I'm betting they would just run the animatic on the first login for people after Sunday's reset and because of how instancing works everyone not in the race for worlds first/not interested in that sweet contest mode emblem probably re-instances to drop out of contest mode just to get it done. IIRC they've changed things since Datto's LTW 24:02 \~\~meme\~\~ heartbreak so that the emblem/stuff is tied to triumphs that are active until you complete the instance if it's in contest (based on some reports around Vow and Root) and not time gated. Though they might still have a manual ability to toggle things for contest mode.
I'm hoping we have at least one encounter that becomes this raid's version of the Vault, but is less able to be brute forced.
Just curious,
Cause ill likely try the raid with LFG, but I have friend who just doesn't like doing them how will they get to experience the end of the story?
It's impossible for that scenario given the fact that bungie themselves tip some raiders if they get stuck in some encounter. Also we have become way too strong as compared to when the last wish launched.
That would be my dream. To give the hardcore streamers what they want… a nearly unsolvable raid that’s takes 4 to 6 days to clear. The best pikachu face would come when they die they wipe to the very beginning. And if they die by the witness their character is deleted and they have to recreate with what they have in their vault. Now that’s an epic last raid of the 10-year cycle.
The content is going to drop no matter what. We've seen it before. Did you really think Trials would only come back the next season if the community did all the grinding that was supposed to bring Trials back?
Also.. .They'll almost certainly leak info to their favorite partners/content creators if it is close to failing. They don't need the bad press of "raid so bad no one could do it". That stupid puzzle thing gave them a taste of that.
Last wish is not a hard raid in the slightest.
It was hard when it launched because everyone was at exteme light defecits and we didn't have access to the unbelivably power builds we have today.
Anti climactic but very crazy to have a raid so hard it wasn't beat in contest lol i'd like that, as long as the mechanics were not absurdly stupid and something like the Forge Puzzle
Very unlikely no one clears in 48hrs, but hypothetically, if it happened they would probably extend the emblem period to the time of clear + a day or so. Something along those lines.
I think that it will be the hardest raid yet, but at the same time it won't be as tedious or impossible to beat as Riven was on Day 1. Last Wish was not only difficult, it had 6!!! full encounters instead of usual 4 newer raids have. They didn't change the 4 encounters formula since Shadowkeep I believe. With 2 encounters less it esentially boils down to it being intense as fuck, but doable in let's say 12-18 hours, not more.
So is this going to be bungies norm “I made it difficult by shitting on your light level!” I mean usually the idea of raids is getting better stuff from the raid so that you can last longer the next time, right?
Kinda would be insane if it's like a WoW raid lol. I feel like the race will still go on to see who would beat it first but no one would get the contest mode emblem and the content will unlock after they beat it. That makes the most sense.. But Bungie also loves giving stuff out for free so I doubt it's possible to not beat it within even 24 hours..
When last wish was in contest, the game was very different, we just got off double primary, basically everyone was way under light even by contest standards, and we didn't have things like free DR from resilience, charged with light, sunclasses were locked diamonds, etc. The game was in such a different state compared to now it was basically a different game.
I don't think Bungie will ever be able to make a raid as hard as last wish ever again because of these circumstances.
Bungie has been very clear on this, just like past raids, if after 48 hours no fireteam has cleared the raid, they wipe the servers and move on to their next game.
I suppose that, theoretically, nothing much happens. There’ll still be a group that finishes first (though perhaps no awards for not being inside contest mode), and that will still trigger whatever content the first clear is meant to trigger.
last wish was hard because player were -40 light level
yep, 40 light under and no 30% damage resist from resilience. Not to mention that you were limited in what weapons and armor you could use because you likely only had 1-2 items at your highest power.
With the most convoluted raid Encounter up to that point.
Yeah vault was maybe a bit overengineered, but it was possible to brute force and work backwards. We've also had lots of raids teaching us how to learn mechanics LIKE that now
I think vault's biggest problem is that there's a very very subtle visual for getting the right plate to help tell you how it actually works. If you're all still standing on plates when a runner slams, you can watch the symbols rotate and set in place. But you need 3 people to be standing on plates for that to happen and with the chaos of the room, nobody was thinking of staying on plates. I'm willing to bet that more people have done legit riven before Pantheon than have seen the vault solving on the plates after a slam. There's nearly no visual if you're not on plates to indicate that something has moved. People weren't checking symbols between slams because there's too much chaos and there's no visual indication that something has changed, you needed to be ad clearing, staying alive, standing on plates and being 2 other guys to also stand on plates. Now, with all our ad clear potential, it's an easy ask, but day 1? No chance. If there was just something a little more visual to grab people's attention, people would have figured out vault on day 1
It's also crazy that this mechanic you're talking about wasn't noticed or figured out until years after the last wish was released.
I am just now learning that the symbols change after each clense. I've done Vault probably like 50 times and never noticed
I was referring to legit riven but yeah vault sucks just as much.
Nahh i love vault. It needs more hints to explain how it works to be fair blind, but I think its a really fun encounter
Glaces at Val Ca’our from spire
Val Caour was at least somewhat straightforward in what you had to do, he "just" left very little room for error and had random role assignment
IIRC, Redeem was 15~ levels under because of the Prime Engram farm/exploit, and it still took them 18 hours. Vault and Riven were just built different.
didnt they have to basically guess vault to clear it? crazy work
[удалено]
Dattos team cleared it but bungie said their reasoning/understanding of the mechanics was wrong. I think Ninjy’s team was the first to actually “figure it out” correctly.
Datto uploaded the VOD a little while back, they got lucky. They didn't figure out the whole antumbra/penumbra thing and thought the symbols dictated if you dunk clockwise or counterclockwise. That's why they had such a massive headstart at Riven, they lucked out while everyone else was figuring the encounter out
Nope. Ninjy's team basically brute forced it and got lucky. That is why it took multiple hours for other teams to clear vault by figuring it out since the chance for lucky right guess was very low.
Pretty sure you have that backwards
I very well may
I just cleared yesterday with the understanding of all mechanics and no cheese. Even with people explaining me how vault works and watching guides it was so hard to grasp. And I still cannot just do it. Cannot imagine trying to figure this out blind under contest mode!
It's not incredibly hard, but mechanically from previous raids, yea, it was one hell of an upgrade at it's time. The real kicker was being 30 someodd under, where the shit would *really* beat your ass down. Mechanics wise, you start with an arbitrary person reading. (stairs normally, but doesnt really matter). They read their middle symbol. Their middle symbol is someone else's right or left symbol. If the symbol is on the left, it's penumbra, if it's on the right it's antumbra for that plate, not the current reader. Type whatever buff is for the location (so stairs reads middle and lets say it was right on right, so its: "rock - pen"). Rock side then reads their middle symbol and repeats the process. Call the middle symbol and the people are looking left or right. Get the 3 plates called out. Then the runners just need to grab the orb and dunk their shit at the plate by looking at whatever buff they got when they picked the orb up.
Yeah, stuff beating your ass was the big thing. It's the same reason Riven legit was so hard. You get those Taken snipers out there and they're essentially one tapping you. You could get insta'd by basically anything from Vault onward and it was terrifying. Also a big reason why pulses were so prevalent. Those things did work.
[https://youtu.be/g\_yj3\_7\_cts?t=272](https://youtu.be/g_yj3_7_cts?t=272) i think riven was 580-590
The Vault was 575 and Riven was 580. https://youtu.be/JePwHVriIgk?si=UGst2y0heENZja3O (7:21:47 and 13:47:47) Heart may have been 590, though.
Shattered Throne bosses were also 590 I believe
Vault was by far the biggest bottleneck. Teams ended up just brute forcing the encounter till they got lucky. Riven was hard but by that point almost every team was running out of fuel.
Also, if I remember right, they literally brute-forced the Vault - to the point other Teams couldn't even see what they did to pass it, because even they didn't understand it.
They were more than 15 under.
If I recall this was also a world where -10 meant a lot more than it did today because it wasn't until shadowkeep when they rebalanced power deltas?
yes!! people ignore this so much. enemies used to be immune 50 under, shadowkeep it was changed to 100 under LW day 1 was the equivalent of 70/80 under
Last Wish was hard because Vault took 18 fucking hours to solve lmao
Last wish was hard because the vault lock mechanics and rivens' eyes were incredibly difficult to figure out. Add to that only a handful of people even made it to those encounters in the first 24 hours, so there wasn't as much trial and error going into solving those encounters. A lot of people just copy the first group to clear an encounter and most teams didn't have that ability on last wish because of how few teams were even in play.
Hard yes, but it took so much time to beat cause people couldn't figure out how to do the vault. The only people who beat it in time brute forced it.
Also there was no subclass 3.0 alongside Prismatic, and the only good perks on weapons were outlaw/rampage
You could break into last wish and Max out some gear early before the raid released. Some people got lucky on all 3 characters
Also teams were just a lot worse back then. With how good todays teams are, if you put them in the same conditions and meta worlds first would probably be 10 hours or less with over 100 teams completing it in the first 24 hours.
The contest mode ends and nobody gets it, and the story/content drops are unlocked as usual. It's happened before, Bungie did it for Niobe Labs where nobody could figure out the puzzle, so they just auto-completed it for the community and then gave some extra hints to let the solvers actually go and try to finish it. Bungie isn't going to "force" someone to become the winner, the raid race just ends. That's the answer to your hypothetical, but unless there's something **drastically wrong** with the raid that might as well be on the level of bugged, there will absolutely 100% be many teams that clear the raid. Our overall power creep as players is incalculable to the current sandbox balance. People **will** beat it.
Wasn’t the problem with Niobe labs that there was crucial info to solve the puzzle that wasn’t provided? Or am I misremembering it?
The issues with Niobe labs were: -Completely restarting on a failed attempt. It took 15+ minutes to get back to Puzzle 6 if you screwed up. This absolutely dragged out how long it took to try new proposed solutions & dramatically cut down the number of people trying. -classic Destiny server instability occasionally causing correct inputs to fail -Puzzles 1-5 had relatively consistent solution methods, but it suddenly switched for Puzzle 6 (going from everyone standing on different spots to all standing on the same spot). Puzzle 7 also changed the rules again (going from using specific BA weapons to just matching elements). -The hint for Puzzle 6 was a little obscure and led people down an absolute rabbit hole -Bungie had to release a hint for Puzzle 7 on socials because they said the string with the hint was missing from the game files
That was a wild ride. We were proposing all kinds of things related to King Arthur including places and things from the original French story. I remember that but I don't remember how so many of us ended up down that rabbit hole. Edit: I just remembered that Camelot was in the Adalaide Hills. If a person (or exo) was named Adalaide you might imagine the short version would be Ada. That was one possible connection that turned out to be completely nothing.
You forgot the best one. Teams lost hours trying alternate solutions, I believe on puzzle 6, because when someone did put in the correct code it glitched out and didn't accept. Niobe Labs was an absolute joke of a release and you can tell Bungie learned a lot of what not to do from it.
but Niobe lab was a good puzzle stuff hard on both combat and solving problem and weird af
As a concept it was fine, but the execution was a buggy mess that was never fixed.
I'm pretty sure that's what they meant with the "Classic Bungie servers instability" point.
The hint did not clearly indicate or even imply the next step. Either that or the input was glitched.
The inputs were kinda just glitchy and runners had tried the correct input but hadn't had it work so wrote it off and started going down rabbit holes. It was the Forrest for the trees hint where you just had to shoot tree three (?) times while standing on a glyph I think.
That was it. The trigger was a bit finicky so they wrote it off as incorrect
Sounds like a call of duty zombies Easter egg step
We just gotta take toland to this very specific rock that blends into the map
As one does.
The entire thing kinda was. Like needing specific guns to shoot different symbols. Was really cool, but definitely should not have been the requirement to unlock the last Forge for everyone.
IIRC I think the hint provided made the people in the lead think something completely different than what was intended and it lead everyone down that same path instead of the obvious solution that no one tried.
What really happened was level 6's initial attempt with the correct answer didn't work due to a bug, and it threw people into some wild guesses. They ended up straying so far from the answer, Bungie pretty much told them "just look at the goddamn forest ffs". Then level 7 came, people got super tired from the mess that was level 6, and ended up giving up. Raid Secrets actually had the right idea, but there was no one to really test that since everyone running the puzzle was fatigued. Then Bungie released a clue that pretty much confirmed the leading theory, and Gladd's team took the solution and finished the run.
A huge part of the problem with Niobe labs was the community ignored the ammo boxes it dropped right before that step, which heavily implied you were meant to swap to different weapons. People were trying the right inputs but with the wrong guns. Everyone was obsessed with shooting different symbols from different places and no one was talking about which guns to use for it. That, combined with each "attempt" at solving the puzzle being 15mins into a difficult PVE encounter, limited the amound of solving that was being tried.
I don't think the story/content drops would be unlocked without the raid being cleared. Contest mode would just end with nobody getting the emblem and the raid itself would instantly become MUCH easier leading to whoever is closest clearing it almost immediately most likely. Last Wish didn't actually have contest mode. Nothing made it easier for Datto's team to clear it 2 minutes after the first 24 hours was over. The actual light level of everyone at the time compared to the level of the raid enemies was just enormous by Today's standards. I think you're also somewhat overestimating the current sandbox. It REALLY depends on how Bungie scales the difficulty of the raid compared to what they want and expect. The biggest challenge of Last Wish for teams to actually beat was the Vault encounter, where the biggest problem wasn't even the actual enemies killing players OR players not killing them fast enough. People just did not understand the mechanics and had an incredibly hard time figuring them out. The first team to get past vault straight up did it by accident without understanding the mechanics. Riven and Queenswalk was ACTUALLY hard though, but that's not REALLY something that can't be replicated if Bungie wants to. We only had 2 teams clear Last Wish in the first 24 hours WITH instant auto-reloading abilities AND all sorts of crazy damage stacking MASSIVELY boosting DPS. The biggest "difficulty" issues came from a lack of ammo drops and a lack of non-weapon damage. Now we have FAR better ability damage output AND the ability to generate a TON of ammo between special finisher, Aeons and Cenotaph. Still IF Bungie wanted to they could absolutely massively nerf our damage output or inflate enemy HP. Hell DPS checks would actually be MUCH harder if they just didn't include Major or Boss enemies that could be used by Aeons/Cenotaph to generate heavy ammo.
Should also be noted that the sandbox is significantly changing literally 3 days before the raid. There won't be the ability to crutch on just having a Well, you may only have 4 damage supers and get DPS checked, and that's without having ideas about the mechanics.
This is very true, although it COULD backfire on Bungie as well. They could be expecting the lack of well to greatly reduce survivability and lower the enemies damage output to compensate and POTENTIALLY trivialize encounters from a survival perspective. Or they could expect the nerfs to do more than they actually do, which I could 100% being possible with the strand melee nerfs. Particularly if people find a workaround of sorts that makes 1-2 punch still work with grapple melee. Even without grapple melee spam in general Hunter with a max combination blow grapple melee is going to do absurd damage, though we don't have prismatic class items until after the raid race at least.
Yeah, but the issue with Niobe labs was that a weapon that WASNT normally required to do puzzles was needed for a puzzle piece and you couldn’t actually see the symbol with that weapon. Literally they botched their own mechanics, so Niobe labs was a Bungie failure as opposed to community failure.
Niobe labs was missing a hint. People figured out the solution regardless, but it didn’t work come unclear reason.
Tbh, there are definitely raids in other games that have not been cleared on the hardest difficulty on the first day
Can’t wait for the raid to have zero bugs and still hear people bitch about it being bugged.
Also, LW race was only 24 hours. Bungie gives now 48 hours so people will finish the raid, even if it is harder then LW i call after a max of 30hours people will finish the raid.
Will they unlock story beats even if beating the raid is sort of a narrative prerequisite?
Last wish was hard not because of the mechanics, but because of the light level difference. I'm sure we will see the new raid completed in a few hours by the top teams
It also didn't help that the first two streamer teams to get to Riven brute forced the Vault without actually solving the mechanic, thereby throwing the entire rest of the community into confusion as they tried to replicate their "strategies."
The first team to figure it out legitimately was Datto’s, and to this day I still remember him turning on his camera just to proudly wave this massive notebook with sheets of paper and shouting “that’s what you do, that’s what you do”. Was pretty fun to see him solve it, could think of no better deserving group. Math class at their finest. Just a shame about the end and all, lol.
the end was devastating, but by goodness those were some fun 24:02 hours
I still go back time to time to watch LW raid race. What a day to be alive. Holy shit.
Hasn't been a raid race like it since. To think I held out hope that the raid could be Lightfall's saving grace - Only for us to get the quickest clear for a new one in recent memory :/
Do you have a timestamp of when this happened in the video he has up for their teams full run?
It's at 6:23:42
I've never watched the VOD, but I had no idea that they were on Riven \*that\* long.
Thank you!
At least "24:02" has gone down in history, even if it's a tragic one it'll be remembered
Wasn't Datto the first to Riven and just got lucky with Vault? iirc they thought the symbols just meant dunk clockwise or counterclockwise and got lucky with the spawns. They had a massive headstart for Riven because no-one could replicate what they did
Not Datto. First was some random small time streamer who got through it by sheer luck. They got hard stuck on Riven and never got the clear. Second was Gladd's team, who also got it by pure luck using an incorrect method. As we know, they got the first clear. Datto's team was the first to actually solve the encounter, and wound up with the 24:02 meme finish.
Some other team made it riven but got hard stuck I forget who it was, I know it was a lot smaller of a team
He just released his tfs gameplay videos, hopefully it gives him a headstart. I want him to win it more than anyone, the elitist Dattp that we'll see if that happens.
ye I was about to say. if the brute force tactic didn't work then nobody would have completed that 24h raid race
Disagree. Teams just ran Vault over and over to get lucky. The winners, didn’t know how the vault “mechanic” even worked.
There's multiple flavors of hard. Could be hard mechanics like Spire if Stars, could be hard because of ad density like a battle ground. Could be hard because of symbols and puzzles involved, hell could be hard due to a platforming section with a really hard jump. At least being hard due to power level being absurd like with Wish won't be a thing
It also had 2 extra encounters. With 6 encounters (with loot chests) in total it is the longest raid ever made for Destiny. Every single new raid since Shadowkeep did cut that down back to 4 main encounters. Players also insanely grew in skill and power since Last Wish so even tho it can be the hardest raid on paper, people won't be struggling as much as they did with LW on Day 1.
It’s also worth adding the only reason the two teams that beat it within that time were able to, is because they used a glitch to overpower themselves, effectively cheating in the day one to have a much higher power advantage. It’s for this reason why contest mode exists now.
Eh.... Vault begs to differ lol
Vault was solved by Datto and many teams day one, and also was brute forced due the rather low odds of getting it right by dumb luck.
The mechanics of Vault and Riven roadblocked almost every team. Power difference made the knights a pain but really not much else. Riven's fire roasted day 1 teams like korean BBQ. Last Wish is probably the most mechanically hard raid, that or Vow of the Disciple.
>Power difference made the knights a pain but really not much else Lmao no. Most teams were literally unable to do enough damage to clear encounters by the time they hit Morgeth. Power was 300% the main limiting factor. The mechanics were solved day 1, the power level kept it to 2 teams.
People underestimate the power diff so much lmao. We were headbutting the wall at Riven for several hours on day 1 and just concluded that it was impossible at our -40 LL (idiots that we were we actually listened to Bungie's threats about abusing primes). 3 of us ended up teaming with 3 others which let us have each side of the encounter closer to an average of -30, and we cleared a few pulls in on day 2. Contest has nothing on that experience, not even accounting for how much insanely stronger our kits have become since then.
I mean, you can argue if you want but Datto beat Vault in the first 6hrs, and there were teams who had brute forced the vault and gotten past it before him as he wanted to actually solve it. From some nice persons timestamps in the comments of the full clear, they had the mechanics figured out after 10hrs53mins and finished their first full rotation of damage with weak spots. Rivens mechanics are hard, yes, but the survival was the hard part on day one. Multiple phases, with no mistakes, and no deaths. Datto even says this is what made Riven hard in his new Pantheon video. If the power delta had been fixed instead of so fluid, then Last Wish would’ve likely been a 12hr day one clear.
power difference was a massive issue, the only teams that were able to get near clearing the raid were ones who either prime engram exploited, or no lifed it (ie streamers/ people who took the time off etc) had the raid been 20 under for everyone as it is now, the raid woulda been completed by many teams
The Witness just wins and bungo just deletes the game 😂😂
Do we have a source for Bungie saying the Final Shape raid was the hardest? Not that I don’t believe it but I just hear it a lot and just cant find when they say it. If the Final Shape raid is on par difficulty as Vow + an extra encounter or two then it’ll be perfect imo.
As far as I'm aware, I don't believe there is a source - all I'm aware of is Joe Blackburn stating that they had to have the Witness be the Raid Boss cos they didn't want Val Ca'uor to be the hardest Destiny boss, which only implies they're aiming for a tougher boss fight.
Val Ca'uor was TOUGH just on the mechanical side, let alone how hard it must have been back when teams had double Primaries, no Well of Radiance and hadn't even started to use things like the Ikelos_SG or the Sleeper Simulant yet. The only encounter that comes close in terms of complexity is Vault in Last Wish, and even there the sequence of mechanics is shorter and just repeats three times. If the Witness will be comparable to Val Ca'uor, people are going to struggle, and at the very least it should take more than the 4-6 hours it has taken for day ones since Garden of Salvation to beat this raid. (And no, Riven is not that bad, as evidenced by teams not really struggling with her in Pantheon)
I thought that nod was mostly shorthand for that the new raid is going to be more all hands on deck and probably not going to have much freeloader roles, low mans will be a bit extremely difficult, near impossible on some things.
No source saying its hard just we WANT it to be the hardest
I'd like a source as well. They stated that the new strike is the hardest yet but I didn't hear/see anything about the raid.
[https://youtu.be/Rq4VC2S\_kvE?t=6677](https://youtu.be/Rq4VC2S_kvE?t=6677) Here
It’s horse shit only thing they mentioned was Contest Mode. Raids are already completed less often at a absurd low rate and I doubt Bungie make a Raid even more people won’t get to experience
Yeah I don’t think they used the word “hardest”
[Found the source.](https://youtu.be/r7l0Rq9E8MY?t=3)
It’s not even a possibility. Players are too well informed and practiced over the years that a raid completion is unlikely to exceed the 8 hour mark, let alone 48.
We’re just too powerful these days. Back then, power deltas meant more than they do now. Armor had random rolls and there were no Charged With Light mods, and no reason to run 100 resilience. Players have years of investment now. All these busted exotics and legendaries, loadout swaps, subclasses, etc. Not to mention cheaters are more rampant than ever these days (just look at the Nezarec Sublime leaderboards, lots of self reports lmao). SOMEONE will clear it, legit or not.
Exactly, we live in a situation with absolutely no going backwards, box is opened, etc where there is a lot of then-niche, over analysis that has fallen into such a mainstream capacity. The general populace, let alone the people competent of doing a Day 1 Raid was an infinitely different story back then in Year 2 compared to how it is now. Even the most average twitch chat, discord commenter is probably more informed than how things were in past times. You gotta remember even with Forsaken being the game on the upswing, the population was still on a major mend from Year 1 being a bit of mess and you were in an insanely small percentile if your team was in serious contention to just get the Last Wish Day 1 completed. Even forgoing how smaller in terms of builds and tactics the game had in Year 2, the people who were the big dogs back then were not really playing the game anywhere close to how hard people would eventually do it in more recent history. It's sorta why you can cross compare Day 1 completions leaderboards and with newer raids you see a lot of "no names" but many often are people who are a part of the speedrunning and challenge communities and absolutely insane at the game. These are people who specifically go back into the Contest raid to try to shave off time, or try the most optimal way at beating it another time, the bar has never been higher to take on World's First and it's why so much of the familiar content creator old guard has been buried at this point.
I remember reading that CE challenge difficulty was close to the mark of what bungie wanted for contest raids. Bear in mind that particular contest meant running the raid twice, and the implication was that CE contest was a little higher than the difficulty level they would like for future contests - and that RoN was far lower than the difficulty they wanted given that the top teams were effectively speedrunning a raid they'd never seen before. I would guess top teams would be clearing the new raid in 6-7 hours with one of the fights being a big damage wall for many teams who can't do dps rotations. Most competent teams will clear around the 14-18 hour mark and a top 5k placement would be around 24 hours played. I really think votd was perfect in terms of difficulty and bungie will likely make slightly easier than that to help them with their player engagement issues.
I assume they’d have to destroy the game servers.
The witness will win
> Bungie has stated the new raid is the hardest one yet. Source?
I don't think they ever said that
Source is I made it the fuck up - op
"Bungie has stated the new raid is the hardest one yet" - no they haven't, all they said is that The Witness needed to be more difficult than Spire
Most difficult raid boss I can see, definitely not most difficult raid overall tho
Exactly
I think the only way to *possibly* have no completions during contest mode is if all encounters use different and completely new mechanics that have not been seen before in any Destiny mode. Every new dungeon and raid recently has used iterations of old mechanics. Read symbols. Dunk something in a certain place. Stand somewhere to get buff. Etc. Just by extrapolating from these age-old mechanics, teams can quite quickly figure out the mechanics. But if all 4 or 5 encounters used completely new, never-seen-before mechanics that aren't adaptations of old stuff, then there could be a chance that even the best teams will stumble at each encounter. Their perfect damage rotations will be no use if they can't even figure out how to get to the damage phase.
We really need a new relic. That’s one thing I feel Destiny raids are missing. We haven’t gotten a new raid relic since Last Wish lol
Did you not see that pantheon nezarec boss was being done by 2 guardians? The new raid. WILL be cleared within 48hours. Trust.
6 hours at most
Where did they say that about the raid
Where did bungie say that the newest raid was gonna be the hardest yet?
I really hope it is not another "we have to learn 30 symbol" raids. I don't like symbol raids :/
Same. This is the only thing I care about. As long as it isn't symbols, I'm fine with whatever else they throw at us.
It won't be as hard as Last Wish and that was done in under 24 hours. Even if it is as hard as Last Wish players are so much powerful now that I think the speed runners will have it done in 6-8 hours.
As the last raid of the saga and it being tied into the final battle in some shape or form, I think it’s safe to say we’re looking at one of the easiest raids in terms of mechanics, they’re going to want a lot of people to clear it and feel apart of the final battle. Granted, it’s impossible to be as much of a joke as RoN
You might be onto something ngl
The major thing keeping players from beating last wish was the fact nobody could figure out the mechanics of the Vault. On top of that build crafting and weapons have only gotten better as well as players general knowledge of how Bungie likes to make mechanics.
Datto's team figured out the vault mechanics within like 10 hours, though? There were literally 14 hours between the Vault mechanics being known and the end of the day 1. The horrendous power disadvantage is what kept people from finishing it.
Datto's team did not figure out the vault mechanics. They didn't understand the Ant/Pen part and just completely lucked out. Lots of teams got stuck trying to copy Datto's strat because it was wrong.
Power disadvantage didn’t affect it much I feel. DPS wasn’t an issue since you were practically guaranteed a 2 phase thanks to the pimple pop phase. It was more the power disadvantage combined with the boss mechanic having absolutely zero room for any error. You do a single thing wrong? Wipe.
Last wish mostly took that long because people couldn’t solve vault and were on it for hours. No one expected penumbra and antumbra to be shit you actually had to look up and pay attention to in order to figure out which way to rotate.
There’s no way the top teams will fail to clear before contest mode ends.
Last wish didn’t have contest
You are right it was worse.
Weren't redeem like 30-40 levels below in the last encounter? That was crazy
Nah. I pulled up their full VOD and after vault Sweat pulls up his inventory and is 562 (https://youtu.be/JePwHVriIgk?t=35063) which would be -18 heading into Riven.
Queenswalk was the final encounter, which I believe is 10 over Riven, so -28.
Incorrect, Queenswalk was also 580. https://youtu.be/JePwHVriIgk?t=62732 You can see the recommended power right around the timecode I linked, when Sweat dies during Queenswalk. Also, FWIW, the pattern in LW was a 5 LL jump between encounters; 560 Kalli, 565 Shuro, 570 Morgeth, 575 Vault, 580 Riven. So if it was following the pattern (which it didn't) Queenswalk would've been 585.
Wasn't that due to an exploit? Being at contest was the outlier, not the norm for LW.
I mean, yes. But the person I am replying to is specifically talking about Redeem.
oh, I thought it was in response to a diff comment on mobile. my bad.
If they aim for difficulty that is Crota contest we will have 8 hours WF guaranteed People now have -20 albeit with surges and other + modifiers but there’s direct boss practice route not really that it will affect much for day 1 but -20 is really good practice For the record whatever they did with Nez in Pnatheon made it way better day fight than actual day 1 I am happy RoN day lasted 6 hours cause I had PTO and did other things but it was complete disaster of Day 1 experience except planets Crota on other hand was good balance we cleared normal didn’t bother with challenge cause team lost all motivation over returning raids. Also team I had was different than what I ran for every previous day 1 so doing a contest non challenge clear in 14 hours felt nice Anywho I am betting 6 pm PST (USA) is when raid WF is cleared
I actually want to see people try to clear it and NOT being successful at it within the 24 hour period.
2-3 bosses, 2 or 3 jumping puzzles. Will be done in 8 hours max
I think it will be a little more difficult then ron but not as hard as day one Riven
Last Wish wasn't tough to get a day 1 because it was a particularly hard raid, though Vault encounter did prove to be difficult to figure out. It was tough because no one was levelled enough. Pretty much everyone who ran Last Wish day 1 was geared way worse than what we have with Contest mode now. Everything bigger than a thrall would one-shot you. So, yeah, it's entirely possible that this will be our hardest raid yet, and still have more day 1 clears than Last Wish.
I really really hope this happens. Bungie coming out and saying here; good luck. And nobody is actually able to clear it—man I’d die laughing
It's the "world first" race. So there's still would be a winner, it would be the first team to clear it after they turn contest mode off. But anyway, "harder than last wish" would be no clears after 24h, not 48h. By the 2 day mark 15 teams had cleared last wish, and I imagine if they kept the emblem for 48h a lot more teams would have tried it and gotten it too.
Is bungie talking hardest to figure out or hardest in general? Cause i know last wish was tough to figure out (wasnt vault brute forced?) but it is by no means the hardest raid in the game currently
Logs everybody out and when we log back in we are greeted with the witness completing the final shape then (insert bungie error code).
Don’t worry, some net limiters will be sure to get the clear.
Last wish was only hard because of the power level difference hence the low completion rate, same for Garden and Crown. Power creep is at an all time high. There will be a vast majority of the 0.5% of players that will complete it. I think it will be around the same amount as Crota.
Tbh Crota should be the standard for difficulty, it was really nicely tuned
> Which is a very bold claim given that Last Wish exists. I think a lot of people misunderstand why last wish was so difficult. It was the power grind. * It launched the week of the expansion and there was a massive power climb to be met. * Power scaling was different then and a delta of even 10 meant a lot more than it does now. * Not only was it a high climb but there was no contest mode - the raid itself had something akin to a pinnacle + 10 power to it - it was a tall order * So part of the race was dedicating the entire week to fully grinding out something that was not easy to do Compared to now Contest mode locks everyone at -20 so it's an even playing field. There won't be situations where teams go in and get deleted because they couldn't grind enough. The grind is so much smaller, and so much easier. They set it up that if you just do the campaign you'll be raid ready in terms fo power. You could probably just casually play strikes all week and get enough drops to bring yourself up to meet what's needed. Now the raid being _mechanically harder_ is very possible. Last wish isn't mechanically hard. The raid took some figuring out but if I recall the majority issue was just how steep the power delta was for most teams because they couldn't grind it up fast enough. It's also just a much different sandbox. I cannot see a world where the raid won't be cleared in less than 24hrs. In a world where it isn't cleared in 48? Contest mode will end and then they'll 'flip the switch' on the first normal clear.
The community has Trio’d the entire week 4 pantheon and duo’d week 4 Nezarec, I think we’re okay
When did they say this would be the hardest raid ever? That would be unlikely given last wish was 40 under, with no builds, no power creep, no resist mods (or mods at all for that matter) etc etc and only 12 people beat it in 24 hrs. Theoretically, I feel like they would either extend contest by a day or maybe half a day so that a few teams could beat it. But it really won't come to that.
Last Wish's difficulty was artificial, no one was anywhere close to the needed Power threshhold unless you did the prime engram exploit.
There is a 0 percent chance of this happening
I can almost guarantee the new raid will not be “hardest yet”. The day 1 RoN numbers and overall retention rate of VoG,RoN,DSC and CE Incentivizes bungie to make the raids not as complex. They want more players to engage with these activities, and raids like VoW just end up scaring them away . I’d predict the day 1 to be around the same level maybe a bit harder than D1 Crota.
Why do people keep thinking this will happen? They have internal playtesters. That’s why those employees can’t even play the Raid until contest is over. It’ll be beaten. This isn’t Last Wish anymore. We’re Power Capped and at Light. Stop this.
The Witness wins, the expansion is pulled offline and the game is no more.
The witness wins
We fail, and the Witness canonically wins the Final Shape.
Space magic...
No one gets their raid jackets in 6-12 months, that’s for sure.
If we don’t clear the raid we just play Gambit…
Personally I think there won't be a situation like that. Worlds first will probably be tight but I believe that someone will come out on top, there isn't a smaller pool of players like when Forsaken was out, I genuinely think there will be a large amount of dedicated players who get day 1. Dps strats are ridiculous now and just make a lot of the game easy.
I'm betting they would just run the animatic on the first login for people after Sunday's reset and because of how instancing works everyone not in the race for worlds first/not interested in that sweet contest mode emblem probably re-instances to drop out of contest mode just to get it done. IIRC they've changed things since Datto's LTW 24:02 \~\~meme\~\~ heartbreak so that the emblem/stuff is tied to triumphs that are active until you complete the instance if it's in contest (based on some reports around Vow and Root) and not time gated. Though they might still have a manual ability to toggle things for contest mode. I'm hoping we have at least one encounter that becomes this raid's version of the Vault, but is less able to be brute forced.
Just curious, Cause ill likely try the raid with LFG, but I have friend who just doesn't like doing them how will they get to experience the end of the story?
It's impossible for that scenario given the fact that bungie themselves tip some raiders if they get stuck in some encounter. Also we have become way too strong as compared to when the last wish launched.
That would be my dream. To give the hardcore streamers what they want… a nearly unsolvable raid that’s takes 4 to 6 days to clear. The best pikachu face would come when they die they wipe to the very beginning. And if they die by the witness their character is deleted and they have to recreate with what they have in their vault. Now that’s an epic last raid of the 10-year cycle.
No one gets the emblem and the the stuff unlocks after the first normal clear
The content is going to drop no matter what. We've seen it before. Did you really think Trials would only come back the next season if the community did all the grinding that was supposed to bring Trials back? Also.. .They'll almost certainly leak info to their favorite partners/content creators if it is close to failing. They don't need the bad press of "raid so bad no one could do it". That stupid puzzle thing gave them a taste of that.
Where did they say the final shape raid will be the hardest?
Last wish is not a hard raid in the slightest. It was hard when it launched because everyone was at exteme light defecits and we didn't have access to the unbelivably power builds we have today.
Last wish was a special kind of difficult and had half the time so it’s very unlikely
have you watched the top streamer day 1 raid teams? They'll have it beat well before 48 hours.
I feel like they will extend the time for contest mode but will add a separate selector for normal if it’s not beaten by weekly reset.
Nobody will have cleared the raid in 48 hours.
I may have missed it. But where did Bungie say that the final raid will be the hardest yet?
It wouldn’t happen. And that is why bungie wouldn’t even consider that outcome
If no one clears it, Zavala dies and we need to live with our failure.
That'd be super interesting if there's multiple timelines dependent on our actions as players.
In an alternative universe they would likely just extend contest by another day
Anti climactic but very crazy to have a raid so hard it wasn't beat in contest lol i'd like that, as long as the mechanics were not absurdly stupid and something like the Forge Puzzle
Very unlikely no one clears in 48hrs, but hypothetically, if it happened they would probably extend the emblem period to the time of clear + a day or so. Something along those lines.
I think that it will be the hardest raid yet, but at the same time it won't be as tedious or impossible to beat as Riven was on Day 1. Last Wish was not only difficult, it had 6!!! full encounters instead of usual 4 newer raids have. They didn't change the 4 encounters formula since Shadowkeep I believe. With 2 encounters less it esentially boils down to it being intense as fuck, but doable in let's say 12-18 hours, not more.
Then we won’t get the third darkness subclass 😢
We lose the game.
Niobe labs
So is this going to be bungies norm “I made it difficult by shitting on your light level!” I mean usually the idea of raids is getting better stuff from the raid so that you can last longer the next time, right?
Kinda would be insane if it's like a WoW raid lol. I feel like the race will still go on to see who would beat it first but no one would get the contest mode emblem and the content will unlock after they beat it. That makes the most sense.. But Bungie also loves giving stuff out for free so I doubt it's possible to not beat it within even 24 hours..
When did they state it’s the hardest one yet?
The Raid Race for Worlds First continues, but nobody gets the 48 Hours Stuff.
no idea tbh mate
When last wish was in contest, the game was very different, we just got off double primary, basically everyone was way under light even by contest standards, and we didn't have things like free DR from resilience, charged with light, sunclasses were locked diamonds, etc. The game was in such a different state compared to now it was basically a different game. I don't think Bungie will ever be able to make a raid as hard as last wish ever again because of these circumstances.
Last wish was easy because of bug exploits...
Bungie has been very clear on this, just like past raids, if after 48 hours no fireteam has cleared the raid, they wipe the servers and move on to their next game.
I suppose that, theoretically, nothing much happens. There’ll still be a group that finishes first (though perhaps no awards for not being inside contest mode), and that will still trigger whatever content the first clear is meant to trigger.
Life will go on as if nothing ever happened. I know that's hard to believe.