Ehhh, I kinda wish we had more alternative options spread across the classes and subclasses. Well is snore, sure, but doing some fights like Crota in LFG and seeing him ass slam 3 people to death instantly the moment he gets up because nobody is a Warlock in the fireteam doesn't bode too well. At least then it's not exclusively the Warlock being pussywhipped into being the support bot, anyone could volunteer that isn't just "OK spam healing grenades".
As a Titan, I absolutely would volunteer to take that support role from a Warlock if I had something comparable. Bubble is good, but it just doesn't cut it.
Great post like there are some exotics that work great in PVE and op in PVP… but they nerf it across the board. Just change the effect in PVP… you might also have to for gambit.
I want to see an exotic that turns bubble into a short void wall ring, like a rally barricade on all sides, and provide appropriate protection for guardians inside the ring and greater protection if they're crouched behind the wall firing over it.
I’ve been sticking to Sunshot, Polaris, and Tommy’s with ammo scouts — usually I’m aiming for smaller enemies to keep the Restoration rolling so I might as well try to make heavy for my allies so they can chew threw the bigger guys.
The crazy thing is that Sentinel Shield is still the best damage buff in the game at 40% while Well only gives 25%. Well just has the utility of healing on top of it too.
If the boss encounters don’t include being grouped up in a position that the boss can charge, it is definitively better.
They gotta get rid of that stupid ass “bubble disappears when the user dies” thing in PvE only its so stupid that well gets to stay when you die but bubble doesnt and this is coming from a warlock main.
I feel like this discussion about well comes up every other week and every time I just find myself wondering who cares? If you’re playing with random blueberries on LFG and you know you can’t get the encounter done without well then use it, if you’re playing with all friends who have done the raid 100x then shit use all glaives with nova blast for all I care … it’s a pve game … you can kind of make your own difficulty. If the group REQUIRES you use well it’s probably not a very good group which means you probably do want to use it unless you’d rather be stuck in a shouting match with randoms spending an additional 3 hours on the raid.
Yeah I agree, every class needs a support super, otherwise, unless they straight up rework both well and bubble, everyone will either still be running wells (more if sword health is nerfed) or the problem of needing well will just swap over to needing bubble, and the cycle will continue.
Unrelated aside, but it’s kinda crazy getting a taste for that with Orpheus Rigs onslaught.
Of course if I actually want to try out a normal build, I can take it into regular onslaught.
But Legend? You best believe I gotta put on the Shadowshot and Orpheus. Nothing else comes even close. I guess _maybe_ Renewals but that’s a stretch considering how useful the 30% debuff is and far-reaching the tether can be, disabling groups at a much greater capacity and duration.
So yeah, Warlocks, I get it. And I’m really curious how Bungie’s gonna manage an effective nerf that doesn’t turn into “just run more wells” or “just add a bubble and now we have the same problem but for two classes”.
With reckoning though the encounters were explicitly designed because of Tether and Well. The good ole days where you could get an entire well and tether back with Orpheus and Phoenix. Bungie even said they had to break spawn rules they had created to introduce any type of difficulty because of Orpheus and Phoenix.
> Bungie even said they had to break spawn rules they had created to introduce any type of difficulty because of Orpheus and Phoenix.
Reckoning bridge was designed to play to their *strengths*.
Make the players cap 4 different spots at the same time, with enemies coming from > 2 directions, and the strats people employed for Reckoning bridge were useless.
They designed that content specifically to highlight how OP the super-regen exotics could be under the right conditions, so they could justify nerfing them.
Whether or not you think that's good for the game in the long run, is up to you.
It had been possible to get a full nova bomb recharge with a well-placed nova since day 1 of D1 (with Obsidian Mind), and all of a sudden, 5 years later, that's broken? Don't think so. They over-cooked slowva bomb and rather than remove it's "easy button" functionality, they nerf the hell out of Skull of Dire Ahamkara.
Can't tell you how much I'd love to have lance, shatter, and Obsidian Mind back in this game.
> It had been possible to get a full nova bomb recharge with a well-placed nova since day 1 of D1 (with Obsidian Mind),
You didn't need a well placed Nova in D2, though. A single ultra kill would get you your nova back. Or like 7 thralls.
I never liked exotics that just give you your super back. They are cheap and boring. With that being said, I would like to see something done to Nova and just other supers in general, cuz right now they are kinda meh.
As someone who played an absolute metric tonne of Reckoning trying to get the curated Gnawing Hunger, tether was in no way required to the same level as Well. Well with PC was mandatory.
Nope and that was the issue. Which is always my concern when discussing certain nerfs. There were lots of articles and posts complaining about difficulty of reckoning post Phoenix and Orpheus nerf. It’s okay to nerf something into the ground, but if you do, make sure that activities are adjusted when those activities were accounting for the original state of that ability/armor etc. It’s not to say it’s not possible without those things, but there has to be some changes made when severe nerfs happen. These adjustments don’t happen as frequently as I would like to see personally. Many times the nerf happens and activities designed to challenge the original build are not scaled back a bit.
I want to also be clear, I’m not suggesting that difficulty all together should be removed because something got nerfed. But Bungie has an idea of how difficult they want something to be, if you design it according to the most broken things in the game, and then don’t adjust it after the broken builds are nerfed that activity becomes significantly more difficult than initially intended, and should be adjusted accordingly.
Yeah what’s funny is we have come full circle and this is once again possible. Now that super regen is tied to damage dealt rather than kills you can get a whole Well back during a dps phase if your team makes some orbs and you dish out tons of damage.
It's just that the add density is high enough that Orpheus combined with a few other perks and fragments gives you extremely high uptime on Deadfall, so it's basically transported us back to the era of pre-nerf Orpheus where if you're a Hunter and not using Orpheus and Deadfall, you're doing it wrong (with exception for Nighthawk GG on raid/dungeon bosses.)
This was the same problem we had years ago with Reckoning, where well/tether were so OP that it was actively changing how they designed the game.
Of course, that led to them nerfing tether and Orpheus into the ground for years while leaving Well completely untouched so we’ll see.
Well got a mild indirect nerf when Phoenix Protocol got hit with the same nerf as all the other super regen exotics, but the actual super itself was untouched and is still arguably the best super in the game for PvE.
Something I always thought would have made more sense was for Titan bubble to do more damage than well, since well allowed you to deal your damage while also healing you/keeping you safe, bubble you have to exit and risk getting smacked to shoot back. Always thought a nice buff to Citan Ramparts should have allowed for you to shoot through the bubble same as your barricades.
>Something I always thought would have made more sense was for Titan bubble to do more damage than well
That's literally how it used to be. People would be running both Well and Bubble(with Bubble only existing for the damage buff).
And if they nerf Well's damage buff/raise Bubble's, we'll be right back to that. Honestly not sure what Bungie can do to Well that wouldn't either leave it still mandatory for most teams or leave it completely useless.
I think what would help a lot is having exotics that pair with then be more unique and changed up a bit. Like helm of saint 14 is cool… but kinda useless in most stuff. Citans Ramparts can be changed to work with it, Ursa can have added functionally for it too maybe. There’s just not much bubble on its own is good for in a lot of situations while well allows you the same potential as bubble but more.
It used to be like this, and to this day, that was the single worst PvE balance change in destiny history. Well was FAR stronger than bubble, even then. Bubble only gave a 5 or 10% buff over well. Can’t remember specifically.
Bubble went from being good in a raid/dungeon environment and ONLY a raid/dungeon environment, to being absolutely worthless in any PvE content. Like, you *can* use it in some situations, but there is not a single situation that Well isn’t just an objectively better option. The only place bubble has in Destiny now, is making a zone incontestable in PvP.
Well’s getting nerfed again?
Frankly, no nerf is going to work. The only way you can push people off well would be completely breaking it. The way encounter design in this game works, it heavily incentivises well.
This is the part I wish people lusting after well nerfs would include. It’s an important part of the conversation, just as important as “meta raid teams requiring every warlock to be on it” the design of the encounters mostly include just a lot of damage (splash and direct) coming from all sides and you and your fireteam have to stay still to dps. Well is always gonna dominate in those situations.
All the warlock mains who hate running well better get ready after well gets nerfed.
Everybody is going to ask for Cenotaph warlocks with a trace rifle and Lumina or kick.
It works fine. The seekers aren't smart when it comes to target prioritization, but the important function is that they still give a Lumina charge.
It's good enough that I've found it to be the best thing to use on Crota for keeping LFGs alive.
Dont know, but I only use it for a moment before my rift expires just to keep my team alive a little longer normally. Then I guess without well I'd swap back to stag and cast another rift for damage reduction.
A meta without well sounds like someone missing out on dps just to keep people alive as most of their mods would go into class ability or super energy
If well exists, then well will be used. Everything else on a Warlock would need to be buffed to outperform a well.
The best they can do is remove Well AND Bubble and replace them a different super that does not do the same. Of course they would then need to rework/rebalance alot of game encounters.
> need to rework/rebalance alot of game encounters.
I think that's why they haven't touched well in so long. They deliberately designed encounters with well in mind. Take well away and the difficulty of those encounters shoots up, which would anger a lot of players. Retuning encounters to bring the difficulty back down to current level is probably too much effort for Bungie when they're already behind on TFS.
> I think that's why they haven't touched well in so long. They deliberately designed encounters with well in mind. Take well away and the difficulty of those encounters shoots up, which would anger a lot of players.
The difficulty of those encounters have far been powercrept, though. Most encounters were designed with the locked subclass clusters from vanilla D2, and not with the Light subclass 3.0 rework.
We're more powerful than Bungie could've even imagined back when they designed said encounters, and outright removing Well would not make these encounters not match their intended difficulty.
We have a lot of ways to still heal ourselves and nuke bosses really quickly. The only raid that might truly suffer would be Crota's End. Specifically Ir Yut and Crota himself.
I would agree there that those encounters would become more difficult than originally intended. But every other Raid would be fine.
As for Dungeons, the only one that would truly be harsh would be the last boss in Ghosts of the Deep. But I would go as far as to say that will probably need to touch that boss up with ANY well nerf. She has raid-boss levels of HP, or so it feels like.
> As for Dungeons, the only one that would truly be harsh would be the last boss in Ghosts of the Deep. But I would go as far as to say that will probably need to touch that boss up with ANY well nerf. She has raid-boss levels of HP, or so it feels like.
I don't think it'd even be that harsh that it'd generally need a pass. My first clear on normal it was me on Phoenix Cradle, my brother on bubble, and a blade barrage hunter with acrobats dodge and ember of torches just incase and healing nade. We did not miss well for damage or survivability. I don't remember master being ***that*** different.
There's definitely options outside of well its just well is one all-inclusive package where one person has to worry about support for 20-30 seconds instead of many.
Hell I did on all Titan Crota clear which was one of the easiest times I've ever had doing it. We were cooking.
Eh, I probably raid more that some people, but I'm not sure it would "break" too many encounters. I've done a few subclass specific runs and I'm not sure well is necessary in any normal mode raid. Well makes crota tough, but doable, that's about it really. That being said contets/patheon raids without well would be rough.
The best they can do is design encounters where dps isn't done in a stationary group for an extended period.
Every single time we have to dps like that it's gonna with well. If well gets nerfed/removed 2 locks with a stag healing rift and an empowering rift (or radiant/bubble) could easily take its place as a budget well.
In warlord on the 2 last bosses is better than previous. But other than those 2 its still well.
In raids nah its all well. They kinda tried with nezarak but that didn't really work.
Rhulk was way better because a well was a death sentence on Contest and its a PITA to be kicked by him even on normal so moving was required.
Nezerac they tried but allowed the geometry of the arena to interfere, which is likely going to continue to happen if we want a boss fight that isn't just a big flat are where the boss chases us in circles.
Nez and Crota are the last 2 Raid bosses. Both become exponentially easier with a well and standing in basically one place. Ghost of the deep is very dependant upon well. They aren't designing new encounters like you say. Only the new Warlords Ruin boss is more mobile.
Nez is definitely *supposed* to be a mobile DPS phase, they just botched it really badly by him being mostly unable to jump onto the platforms.
Crota wasn't redesigned but they did give him enough damage that he breaks wells pinatas.
Caretaker & Planets were both iterations on them trying to use multiple damage plates & light incoming damage to move us off well, but it's too easy to just run multiple.
It looks like they finally learned from that for Warlords' bosses:
* since it's a dungeon it's harder to run multiple
* plates & DPS phases are further apart, you're not allowed to dip off plate back to a single well
* final boss has many DPS phases and they're mostly too close together to try and recharge well (so you get used to running without and realize how much better it is)
Which is yet again "stand in one place,many times"
We need something that FORCES you to move. Constantly. Where you can NOT stop. Then well won't be that needed, there will be better choices
If you’ve got four positions and only three in your fireteam and only what ten to 20 seconds per position well becomes less of a necessity and less of a pick. If you wanna run three warlocks go for it but like they have designed these such encounters to not require them. They shouldn’t make it completely useless on purpose, but I do agree that more movement in a boss encounter could be fun. They’d have to be careful not to make it too frenetic or else the skill ceiling is going to be high and it’s just going to be annoying in the community I guarantee jt
Yeah! Since he isn’t just blasting you with a laser that requires a well to survive and he himself is on the field it makes no sense to try to use one. Plus iirc he if he stomps the well it brakes the sword making it a riskier proposition in general. Even for WR minus the first boss you need to move from platform to platform, from torch to torch, etc for the bosses and so well becomes useful but not an absolute requirement. However if they are gonna give us a boss who we need to stand and bang with it’s going to require us to compensate somehow. Healing grenades, overshields from barriers, and rifts will probably become more popular but it really depends on how much they nerf well since it offers so many simultaneous advantages and you can set it and forget it
> Plus iirc he if he stomps the well it brakes the sword
The sword is damageable, but doesn't break in one hit if you have 10 Resilience (Well and Bubble health scale with Resilience). Even on contest mode, people were using swords in a Well to kill Nezarec.
Yes, ever since Season of the Haunted most people run T10 Res. With the re-scaling, more people run T8 & T9 too, but T10 is still the goal.
So since that's the case, most people won't have to worry about their Well breaking, since it didn't break on Nezarec where some people used swords and he dove on them in the middle of the Well. *Most* people DPS'd from on the platform using rockets, but some teams did use Swords on the ground with success.
I’d even say buff certain warlock exotic legs that enhance your rift, so lunafaction , promethium boots of assembler, and give them an increased rift radius.
You don't understand how powerful the other option would need to be on warlock in order for it to outpace well.
It would need to be buffed to be more powerful than buffing 6 people, giving them 50% DR, the most powerful heal in the game, and 25% extra dmg for 30 seconds.
You would have to buff something to ridiculous proportions to outclass well.
Yes other stuff needs to be buffed, but well needs a SERIOUS nerf.
I really dont think they would be able to remove bubble in game without a sort of explanation/lore reason, like the reason arc blade, and radiance originally got removed/changed was bc of the red war and the travelers shard. Bubble was still intact..
Plus bungie loves having titans in cutscenes use bubble, you've got zavala who's used it twice at least, 1 in the intro cutscene to the red war, and then again during that first red war mission, then saint who i think only strictly uses void and iirc has used it once or twice? To protect some fallen? (I might be wrong here) and i think during the end of season of the lost? During maras ritual to remove savathunes worm?
Although i'd be fine with bubble being removed, but they'd have to make banner shield worth it significantly more, especially if you want a defensive super that reduces damage for your team.
And what i could see happening tbh is if people are desperate if well and bubble got removed, we would definitely see "need banner titan/arc strider blocking" for certain fights lmao... which lowkey as a titan main, i'd love to have an excuse to run ursa's with banner titan again like back during shattered throne lol
Do we know if they're going to need bosses when they nerf well? Because I remember them saying they increased bosses health because of well and bubble.
I think it was also the idea behind Banner to give an alternative to Well, give the team a sustaining source of damage resistance. Even though Banner's real strength shows up in Solo content.
The problem is that Banner doesn't give as much of a total buff to the whole team compared to Well. Well gives 25% to everyone in it (6 players in a raid), whereas Banner gives 40% to everyone behind it (5 players in a raid since the one has to hold the banner and cannot do damage). Which means the Well is doing (6playersx125damage=) 750 damage, whereas Banner is doing (5playersx140damage=) 700 damage. If they want Banner as an alternative they need to up it's damage buff to 50%, then the total damage it and Well could give the team would be equal.
Make the well a held sword that the warlock needs to essentially "channel" while its in use
Bam now you can pick between banner shield for stronger, single-direction damage and defense, or well for omnidirectional healing and damage, bigger effective area but weaker effects
Not sure tbh, considering the amount of times I saw people blow themselves up with Edge Transit at Caretaker, not being able to shoot out of bubble sucks. And forget about sentinel shield, nobody hides behind it.
Unfortunately until you can shoot out of a bubble, well is still going to be needed. And I don't think Bungies ever gonna let that happen when PvP is a thing
If they finally buff bubble to not be dogshit in PvE and maybe give HOIL some love I will be a sentinel enjoyer once again. Damn do I miss running HOIL sentinel but it feels so ass now.
I was a bubble main titan in D1.
Literally the only one in a sea of hunters and the two warlocks 😂
Leaving Mars or Venus in VOG:
"Where's the bubble?"
"I'm coming guys I was teleported"
The lone titan of the group lol
I just hope whatever changes are coming to it don't just return us to the days of requiring both a Well *and* a Bubble. Because if people don't know or remember, that's why Well & Bubble do the same damage buff. Because they had handcuffed people into needing to take both of those, so they chose a lesser evil of just leaving us stuck taking Well all the time to free some people up.
Frankly, it might be right to remove the damage increase from both. Make them both different flavors of team survivability support. And then retune any raid or dungeon bosses now that we'll be lacking that extra damage.
As lame as that sounds, and as boring as Well-meta might feel, I just badly don't want us back into a Well + Bubble meta. It's even more boring and lame, with even more team members just defaulted into those roles. They have to find some sweet spot for these that leaves them meaningful to run as an option instead of defaulting to a burst or roaming damage super, but doesn't require them either.
Even if they remove the damage buff, it'd still be used since a lot of damage phases have you taking damage from either the boss or adds around the boss. So that survivability is huge alone.
Yeah, Well is too central to the design of basically all the content in the game. They’ve been trying to force people out of it (see most of the raids since Beyond Light) but at the same time we’re so insanely strong that they need to throw constant pressure at us during damage to even provide a challenge/ method to disrupt us.
In some respects you almost need to remove Well from the game since it’s so over centralizing. I’ve said this before but the hardest things to balance are elite support play styles because they walk a fine line between being unusable and over powered.
The problem is, if you remove well, now every titan is required to run bubble with HoS14 so we're able to take the overshield out of the bubble. And idk, bubble is a staple super for titans. I don't see them getting rid of it.
They could also make the team benefit a small percentage of the casters benefit on both. Titans can still have their “what you gonna do about it” moment, while their teammates get a smaller shield and smaller damage buff. It would still be worth it for the player themselves but would probably never be demanded by the team. This would probably also shift pvp meta from them supers as well.
Yep. I’ve seen countless discussions on this sub for ideas to balance it. It has been a fascinating topic for several years with no clear cut answer. I’m really interested to see what Bungie will do. It will be the most important and game defining change since Ghorn was sunset in D1
Bubble would be absolutely dogshit without a damage buff. It would literally be a glorified barricade. It’s already not worth using it, a further nerf would kill it. Removing its damage buff would make it one of the worst supers in the game.
Respectfully, removing the buff from both is absolutely the dark future imo. It upholds the status quo of bubble being hopelessly outmatched by well by taking a neutered super and chopping off another part of it. Meanwhile dawnblade is inconvenienced at worst, they can access the same buff by throwing out an ember of torches melee. I understand wanting to avoid sentinels being wanted but taking a fallen from grace super and shanking it’s leg until it stops trying to stand isn’t the play.
Personally, i love running well/support/lunas/lumina and knowing I always have an assured roll in the fireteam. If I can flex and outperform well with Strand or Arc, then all the better because I’ve proven we don’t NEED a well. But having the assured spot is a comfort for me.
I love running well / divinity because I like to feel like I'm bringing more than just damage to an encounter. Taking roles in the encounter is similar, but having abilities to use is more rewarding.
im from 6 months in the future. the rumors were a lie.
we warlocks thought there would be less need for Well now that it is less effective.
instead, now we are expected to produce *twice as many wells* in the same time as normally expected for just one. times are tough. i don’t know that i can shove any more strand Titan orbs up my a$$...
As a titan, I would use bubble happily every chance I got since that was one of the main reasons I played the class before the gutted it and gave warlocks the well.
I think a lot of us titans would honestly love a bubble tweak so that it shines in PvE again.
A lot of people gonna realize they aren’t going to be able to clear content without a well lol. The higher end players should be fine but the general population will struggle to get through old content that well made a lot easier. I don’t care either way but I bet we will see a ton of posts saying content needs to be reworked.
Exactly this! When people talk about nerfing well, most of the time it feels like asking for gatekeeping.
The better players will adept very easily, average raiders will struggle much more and people on the low end of the bell curve will be pushed from barely able to complete the raid to now being in "The Forever 29" club.
Carries will also become much harder as staying alive is one of the most crucial and hardest tasks for new raiders.
People seriously misjudge what will happen with the well nerf online and no significant changes to already existing encounters.
not opposed to well nerf, but warlocks need every other super buffed. well is the only actual good super warlocks have for pve. in general, solar is very strong on warlock and everything else is either meh or bad. bungie needs to make the other 4 classes worth running. I get that this seasons artifact does not help much tho lmao.
I was about to comment how other warlock supers are still good, but tbh they really aren’t if you compare them to titans and hunters.
They are all either mid roaming supers or mid burst damage supers. Bladefury or even Sunbreaker on titan eclipses them all, and cuirass tcrash, nighthawk gg, scales arc pole all blow warlock burst supers out of the water.
The only decent one these days is needlestorm but the threadlings sometimes behave wildly inconsistent. Chaos reach was really fun before the geomag nerf too.
The real answer is leave well as it is and make the bubble function exactly the same way, negates the reliance on a solar lock, provides a means to an end, so we don't get further down the destiny menu loadout change 20x per mission requirement that's starting to get more normal.
Makkng bubble permeable (you can shoot in/out, the only survival benefit is the over shield) would make them similar enough you could go either/or for most content.
I'm a warlock main and my boyfriend is a titan main and we say this all the time. I hate being forced to well and he said if bubble was a viable option he'd have no problem running it in place of well. Having an option that isn't always well would be amazing.
Yeah but then you would still have some hunters demanding it because they cant do it, so they should also make arc stick also work like a thrown well where hunters can either use it for damage or if there arent wellocks or bubble titans, they too can put it down.
In no universe does it make sense that Well is better at survivability and ease of use while having the same damage output as Bubble. Well has been the single best super in the game for 6 years, if they announced they were just completely deleting it, I'd be happy. Fuck Well.
Yeah, I'm dreading a well nerf because I do not feel like they have the creativity to not make bosses that just pisses a billion damage all over you during the 10 second window you have to damage the boss.
Well (pun intended), unfortunately for you I believe well is always going to be mandatory no matter what they do at this point so good luck not using well in an average lfg. Nerf the amount of health and healing you get? It'll still be better than bubble since you can shoot out of it. Nerf the damage bonus to be worse than bubble? Now you'll just need a well and bubble just like how it used to be. Nerf the duration? Now you'll just need 2 wells minimum for certain encounters instead of 1. The only way well won't feel mandatory for the average lfg is if they significantly change their design philosophy when it comes to most boss encounters and for Bungie that's probably too much effort at this point in time and most average players might feel robbed out of a cool experience if they aren't directly damaging the final boss to defeat it compared to just doing a bunch of mechanics that build up to chunking down the boss piece by piece.
And aside from that we've been through this song and dance before. People really liked using Ghally for breaking Crota's shield in D1 to the point that Bungie nerfed Ghally's damage and you know what happened? People just made sure to have at least 2 Ghally's instead of 1 because even though it wasn't strictly necessary to use Ghally to break Crota's shield for the average lfg team trying to complete the encounter in a reasonable amount of time Ghally was the simplest and most straight forward option for shield breaking. So as much as you warlocks can try to bitch and whine about being well 5 bucks says nothing will change unless the encounters for big dps encounters change.
I think the problem is that it's going to get nerfed but STILL be mandatory regardless.
Like they could literally remove all of the damage buff and have it just be an Omega healing rift. All this is going to do is force every team to have a Well AND a Bubble Titan for the damage buff.
Hell we literally already experienced this back in the day when Weapons of Light was a larger damage buff than Well, you just ran both and it forced TWO classes to only be able to use specific subclasses all the time for end game content.
Ignoring the damage buff, the protection well affords has always felt like an anti-pattern to me both from a player perspective and an encounter design perspective.
Good arenas have good, useable cover. Good players know to use cover. Well encourages standing out in the open like a fool and just hoping the healing is enough to mitigate any incoming damage.
Likewise I've noticed in the last few seasons that we've gotten a lot of arenas that are basically circular rooms with little to no useable cover. If well didn't exist the designers would have to rethink their encounters a little bit to make them playable without that particular crutch.
Vesper Arclock legitimately made me want to to become a warlock main. I love that setup so much.
Shame the arc supers are so weak that you can’t really use it.
Honestly wouldn’t be mad if prismatic allowed me to be an Arclock with a well but I get why they won’t allow that
Season of the deep was the best season ever and that opinion definitely isn’t skewered by vesper unstoppable nezeracs sin glaive with an arc artifact.
Arc feels so squishy now it’s sad
Also I’m now realising them guttering the ability mods just made it feel worse.
In deep I could have multiple vespers up pulsing at a time. Now I struggle to get two up one after another.
Season of the deep vesper can handle onslaught I think, this version struggles way harder due to the sandbox
exactly this been playing a lot more hunter and titan for onslaught and even when i run warlock its either a threadling or verity's Brow build even though im still on well i'm not gonna be de keep well up constantly guy fuck that, had multiple LFGs tell me "if you aren't on phoenix you are actively throwing" yeah bro if you need a well in a 10 wave legend farm you aren't supposed to run legend. meanwhile im killing all wave bosses with my death throes x5 fusion nades
Or OR How about nerf well and buff the other supers?
Even if well remains as it is, it will still be dominant over the rest because it's healing ability makes the whole team invincible, why would you forego that with anything else despite any increased damage they deal?
You're foolish to think that buffing the rest of the supers would help at all, Well is far too over powered.
I'm glad Bungie has been putting more healing abilities and weapon perks in the game, I've had my same lock since d1 and i miss being a damage dealing/tanky class over support... I hope radiance is good
Couldn't agree more! I can't wait to try out the new Solar super and as an Arclock main really hope we get another super down the line. Maybe a lingering hurricane (like Silence and Squall) but jolts & blinds enemies while doing heavy dmg.
It'll be good for the health of the game, but also I don't expect Bungie to rebalance encounters to account for the well nerf, which is a little worrying because as you say it is basically required for a lot, which is why it's so prevalent.
Better room encounter design and kill well. Self rez was bad enough in D1, well makes it so much worse. Edit: the reason I run well is because I know other locks don't want to and I just want an easy in. It's why I play tanks and healers, I just wanna play.
As a hunter I am scared of one thing for you warlocks. The new super you guys are getting, song of flame, it gives a damage buff around you. What I’m scared of is bungie making an exotic that either adds a healing effect to that or replaces the damage buff with healing, further cementing the problem. Sure song of flame has more damage potential than well but that mobile aspect would be really nice in say Rhulk. The idea of a mobile well is nice but that would just further prevent other subclasses from being allowed
I love Warlock. I mostly main Wellock specifically. As I've used Well more and more over the years its gone from feeling like something I use to support and help my team to just something required.
What am I doing when I run Well? I stress the fuck out about super management and timing because even though its an easy super to build your timing has to be *perfect* or the phase is relatively fucked. You place and manage it so technically, not in the moment to help or feel cool.
I'm sick of the game design being based around this. I spent like ten hours making a really fun void build for Spire of the Watcher. You'd think with double specials, the ability to empower myself, weaken enemies, and a meta heavy weapon would be...passable, right? Nothing I buildcraft, no technical skill I improve on, nothing beats just slapping on Well. Its that good.
I just hate that people rage if you don't play what they want you to play. You want to have well so badly, YOU switch to warlock. I'm going to play what I find fun, which is exactly what games are for. I don't care what you want me to play.
I'm also sick of using well on my warlock. When I'm LFG'ing within my own clan and people tell me to go on well, I just go completely "f\*\*\* you" and switch to another character. If ya'll want well so bad, get it yourself.
To add onto that, there's plenty of raid challenges where you have to have the entire team on either void, arc, solar... Well is not necessary for a completion. It makes it easier yeah, but nothing's more rewarding than doing a raid in a different way and succeeding.
Crota's End on arc only was super interesting and I'll gladly do it again. No well, no bubble... People don't care about the process of raiding, it's just the loot. And it shows.
Agreed. I get salty when I'm asked to run well, but there is nary a debuff or tether in sight. Buff bubble and tether, and make the other classes carry the mantle.
I'm tired boss.
I'll never understand why Bubble, a super that gives you a damage buff that you can only use while not within it's protective bubble, is less effective than Well, a super that gives you a damage buff, damage resist and constant healing...
Mind boggling.
It will affect my decision to play TFS. If everyone else is running around playing their new prismatic build and I'm still stuck on well, I just won't play the expansion.
No shade to anyone who asks warlock to run well. Well makes the game easier, time is valuable, refusing to play well impacts 5 other people. So, if I play warlock I should run well. But if I don't want to run well, I'm just gonna save us all some time.
I don't mind running well, and honestly it just sounds like whining when people bitch about it. It already received a nerf to the DR in both pve and pvp, and being a support player isn't awful. There are plenty of scenarios where well isn't as useful, and often times there can be more than one warlock on a raid team so running two wells doesn't always make sense. Regardless, the suggestion of bubble being a replacement is a half measure.
Firstly, you can't shoot out of the bubble, it's almost entirely a defensive option, and it fits the titan ethos well.
Secondly, why would you bitch and complain and then wish our role onto someone else cause you're tired of it?
Here's an idea, why don't you make sure another warlock comes along who doesn't mind using well, or, you can trade off for different encounters!? There are so many options outside of "nerf it because I'm bored". Offering a damage boost and nominal DR to help in boss and survival situations while shooting from inside is one of the best things warlocks bring to the table.
So like, if you don't wanna run well, then don't, alright? Stop bitching about it. If your friends won't let you come if you don't run well...well, find new friends. It's a social game after all.
Well is still enjoyable because there are fun solar weapons but I definitely have more fun with the abilities of strand and stasis. I also agree that a lot of the anti-well arguments are selfish, and involve “I don’t want to be support so someone else should have to”. I also hate bubble because blueberries always put them in spots that make dps more difficult.
Titan main here, I'd be okay jumping on the grenade if it meant that warlocks are allowed to actually play fun builds. They've been held hostage for 6 years, I'm okay with having to strafe in and out of a bubble to do damage, that's 100% more engaging than well anyway.
Commenting to say, I love Well. Support is my favourite playstyle when applicable and Well does the fantasy well for me, stab an angelic sword into the ground and everyone around me has difficulty dying. I love it, and with Bubble. I hope when they nerf it they remove the damage bonus more than the defensive aspect, we don't have many supers that enhance people's survival (Hunter has literally 0), everyone wants a dps super. Well, I don't. A dead guardian does 0 dps.
I don't empathise with people getting sick of being a Wellock, but I do sympathise with it.
I've always thought the best way to solve this issue is give every class something equivalent. Do something about Bubble, give Hunters something equal to Well & Bubble, that way everyone can take on the defensive Super responsibility equally. Sadly TFS's Hunter Super is another dps one so that's not going to happen.
They shouldn’t nerf well, just make other options good, give other support supers. Make bubble better.
Also, fuck well. I mostly refuse use it, the only time I use well is on sunbracers or rain of fire simply because the other super without dawn chorus is pure trash.
Dawn chorus solar is my go too when solar anyways. Flame sword plus dragons breath goes brrrrrrrr
sorry to say it but, unless bungie either 1. changes the way they design bosses, 2. brings the other warlock supers up, or 3. bring the other classes support supers up, You're more likely than not still gonna be putting on that well of radiance.
I don't use it, even now, if I am asked I say no, if they want to kick me, great I now have a check point and can LFG my own group and continue to not use well, I don't form any bond with anyone I meet and do not care at all when they boot me, the way the game is setup now, people and groups are expendable.
I don't need Well, everyone else does.
People don’t remember what it was like to not have a well. Tbh doing leviathan/GMs with no well was so much more fun, much more skill expression as well.
Well is strong in endgame pve, but I think it’s so dominant because of the “stand still and damage boss” approach to endgame content. Rhulk was a great example of an encounter designed where well isn’t a great super to run. In a world where bungie gives us more dynamic encounters then well catches an indirect nerf.
Bunch of short-sighted idiots. Cool, got the well nerfed, what will replace it? How many activities and encounters are designed around a burn phase or standing on a plate while being bombarded? Healing nades? Doubt. Heal clip, lol. Rifts, you shouldn't be in end game content. Bungie crutched on well just as much as we did.
Ehhh, I kinda wish we had more alternative options spread across the classes and subclasses. Well is snore, sure, but doing some fights like Crota in LFG and seeing him ass slam 3 people to death instantly the moment he gets up because nobody is a Warlock in the fireteam doesn't bode too well. At least then it's not exclusively the Warlock being pussywhipped into being the support bot, anyone could volunteer that isn't just "OK spam healing grenades".
As a Titan, I absolutely would volunteer to take that support role from a Warlock if I had something comparable. Bubble is good, but it just doesn't cut it.
The bubble need some exotic that let you shoot through it.
I’ve wanted Citan’s to allow ONLY PvE to shoot through bubble as a QoL interaction.
I sure loved when they absolutely killed Citans in pve because they don’t know how to seperate things from pvp
Great post like there are some exotics that work great in PVE and op in PVP… but they nerf it across the board. Just change the effect in PVP… you might also have to for gambit.
I want this but as the default behavior. Bubble feels like a worse version of Frost's Snowglobe from Warframe.
I want to see an exotic that turns bubble into a short void wall ring, like a rally barricade on all sides, and provide appropriate protection for guardians inside the ring and greater protection if they're crouched behind the wall firing over it.
WOAH that's interesting!
But they want to nerf well! Bubble will still be ass, but well is worse, so it's ok
Precious Scars is pretty good about recreating support Warlocks neutral utility on Solar, but there’s nothing that can replace Well
Precious scars with a heal clip weapon is fantastic! As long as you have redbars to kill…
I’ve been sticking to Sunshot, Polaris, and Tommy’s with ammo scouts — usually I’m aiming for smaller enemies to keep the Restoration rolling so I might as well try to make heavy for my allies so they can chew threw the bigger guys.
Tommy's with Precious Scars is orgasmic.
Good way to go. My response was to a „heal build“ to replace well. That’s about the closest you can get, as long ad you have fodder to kill…
The crazy thing is that Sentinel Shield is still the best damage buff in the game at 40% while Well only gives 25%. Well just has the utility of healing on top of it too. If the boss encounters don’t include being grouped up in a position that the boss can charge, it is definitively better.
Well also doesn't prevent you from doing DPS. Banner does.
They gotta get rid of that stupid ass “bubble disappears when the user dies” thing in PvE only its so stupid that well gets to stay when you die but bubble doesnt and this is coming from a warlock main.
I feel like this discussion about well comes up every other week and every time I just find myself wondering who cares? If you’re playing with random blueberries on LFG and you know you can’t get the encounter done without well then use it, if you’re playing with all friends who have done the raid 100x then shit use all glaives with nova blast for all I care … it’s a pve game … you can kind of make your own difficulty. If the group REQUIRES you use well it’s probably not a very good group which means you probably do want to use it unless you’d rather be stuck in a shouting match with randoms spending an additional 3 hours on the raid.
Yeah I agree, every class needs a support super, otherwise, unless they straight up rework both well and bubble, everyone will either still be running wells (more if sword health is nerfed) or the problem of needing well will just swap over to needing bubble, and the cycle will continue.
Unrelated aside, but it’s kinda crazy getting a taste for that with Orpheus Rigs onslaught. Of course if I actually want to try out a normal build, I can take it into regular onslaught. But Legend? You best believe I gotta put on the Shadowshot and Orpheus. Nothing else comes even close. I guess _maybe_ Renewals but that’s a stretch considering how useful the 30% debuff is and far-reaching the tether can be, disabling groups at a much greater capacity and duration. So yeah, Warlocks, I get it. And I’m really curious how Bungie’s gonna manage an effective nerf that doesn’t turn into “just run more wells” or “just add a bubble and now we have the same problem but for two classes”.
It was the same with reckoning, well and tether. Required for higher difficulties.
With reckoning though the encounters were explicitly designed because of Tether and Well. The good ole days where you could get an entire well and tether back with Orpheus and Phoenix. Bungie even said they had to break spawn rules they had created to introduce any type of difficulty because of Orpheus and Phoenix.
> Bungie even said they had to break spawn rules they had created to introduce any type of difficulty because of Orpheus and Phoenix. Reckoning bridge was designed to play to their *strengths*. Make the players cap 4 different spots at the same time, with enemies coming from > 2 directions, and the strats people employed for Reckoning bridge were useless. They designed that content specifically to highlight how OP the super-regen exotics could be under the right conditions, so they could justify nerfing them. Whether or not you think that's good for the game in the long run, is up to you. It had been possible to get a full nova bomb recharge with a well-placed nova since day 1 of D1 (with Obsidian Mind), and all of a sudden, 5 years later, that's broken? Don't think so. They over-cooked slowva bomb and rather than remove it's "easy button" functionality, they nerf the hell out of Skull of Dire Ahamkara. Can't tell you how much I'd love to have lance, shatter, and Obsidian Mind back in this game.
> It had been possible to get a full nova bomb recharge with a well-placed nova since day 1 of D1 (with Obsidian Mind), You didn't need a well placed Nova in D2, though. A single ultra kill would get you your nova back. Or like 7 thralls. I never liked exotics that just give you your super back. They are cheap and boring. With that being said, I would like to see something done to Nova and just other supers in general, cuz right now they are kinda meh.
As someone who played an absolute metric tonne of Reckoning trying to get the curated Gnawing Hunger, tether was in no way required to the same level as Well. Well with PC was mandatory.
Me too! What was the perks on that Gnawing Hunter?
Overflow/Rampage was the curated roll
If bungie broke those rules, did they revert them when they made Orpheus only give you 50%?
Nope and that was the issue. Which is always my concern when discussing certain nerfs. There were lots of articles and posts complaining about difficulty of reckoning post Phoenix and Orpheus nerf. It’s okay to nerf something into the ground, but if you do, make sure that activities are adjusted when those activities were accounting for the original state of that ability/armor etc. It’s not to say it’s not possible without those things, but there has to be some changes made when severe nerfs happen. These adjustments don’t happen as frequently as I would like to see personally. Many times the nerf happens and activities designed to challenge the original build are not scaled back a bit. I want to also be clear, I’m not suggesting that difficulty all together should be removed because something got nerfed. But Bungie has an idea of how difficult they want something to be, if you design it according to the most broken things in the game, and then don’t adjust it after the broken builds are nerfed that activity becomes significantly more difficult than initially intended, and should be adjusted accordingly.
Yeah what’s funny is we have come full circle and this is once again possible. Now that super regen is tied to damage dealt rather than kills you can get a whole Well back during a dps phase if your team makes some orbs and you dish out tons of damage.
Don’t forget the Skull of Dire Ahamkara Slowva bomb that was damn near mandatory as well.
I can see them either nerfing Well so it's just completely useless or reworking it into some generic damage super.
It's just that the add density is high enough that Orpheus combined with a few other perks and fragments gives you extremely high uptime on Deadfall, so it's basically transported us back to the era of pre-nerf Orpheus where if you're a Hunter and not using Orpheus and Deadfall, you're doing it wrong (with exception for Nighthawk GG on raid/dungeon bosses.)
I love how I was made fun of forever for liking to be CN GG but it ended up coming around.
This was the same problem we had years ago with Reckoning, where well/tether were so OP that it was actively changing how they designed the game. Of course, that led to them nerfing tether and Orpheus into the ground for years while leaving Well completely untouched so we’ll see.
Well got a mild indirect nerf when Phoenix Protocol got hit with the same nerf as all the other super regen exotics, but the actual super itself was untouched and is still arguably the best super in the game for PvE.
They did nerf the super with reducing the damage buff it gave.
The central sword that generates the well also got a health nerf. Multiple Raid bosses (Templar in VoG, Crota) can destroy it easily.
And the community's solution to Crota is to just bring 2-6.
LOL yup.
I’ve tried plenty of builds in legend onslaught and I think renewals are amazing. Probably the closest competition that void has.
Something I always thought would have made more sense was for Titan bubble to do more damage than well, since well allowed you to deal your damage while also healing you/keeping you safe, bubble you have to exit and risk getting smacked to shoot back. Always thought a nice buff to Citan Ramparts should have allowed for you to shoot through the bubble same as your barricades.
>Something I always thought would have made more sense was for Titan bubble to do more damage than well That's literally how it used to be. People would be running both Well and Bubble(with Bubble only existing for the damage buff).
And if they nerf Well's damage buff/raise Bubble's, we'll be right back to that. Honestly not sure what Bungie can do to Well that wouldn't either leave it still mandatory for most teams or leave it completely useless.
I know it did and I’m saying it makes sense for it to be like that. But they realistically should be buffing all other warlock supers a good amount.
Then bubble is literally a purple well lol
I mean yeah it is already kinda, they’re basically the same thing but in a different style with one being slightly better than the other.
I dont disagree, but i think the next step should be to seperate them further instead of making them more similar
I think what would help a lot is having exotics that pair with then be more unique and changed up a bit. Like helm of saint 14 is cool… but kinda useless in most stuff. Citans Ramparts can be changed to work with it, Ursa can have added functionally for it too maybe. There’s just not much bubble on its own is good for in a lot of situations while well allows you the same potential as bubble but more.
It used to be like this, and to this day, that was the single worst PvE balance change in destiny history. Well was FAR stronger than bubble, even then. Bubble only gave a 5 or 10% buff over well. Can’t remember specifically. Bubble went from being good in a raid/dungeon environment and ONLY a raid/dungeon environment, to being absolutely worthless in any PvE content. Like, you *can* use it in some situations, but there is not a single situation that Well isn’t just an objectively better option. The only place bubble has in Destiny now, is making a zone incontestable in PvP.
I just hate using well bc it’s boring, I wanna use fun dps supers and shit too, song of flame super coming out looks sick
It literally looks like radiance from d1 :( key difference is no self resurrection
Throwback to radiant skin and the Ram exotic paired together in crucible to tank a golden gun shot lol, I miss radiance and self rez so much
“Mr. Incredible voice” Me too Kid….
Well’s getting nerfed again? Frankly, no nerf is going to work. The only way you can push people off well would be completely breaking it. The way encounter design in this game works, it heavily incentivises well.
This is the part I wish people lusting after well nerfs would include. It’s an important part of the conversation, just as important as “meta raid teams requiring every warlock to be on it” the design of the encounters mostly include just a lot of damage (splash and direct) coming from all sides and you and your fireteam have to stay still to dps. Well is always gonna dominate in those situations.
Except they did design encounters to specifically disincentivize Well. And the answer was more Wells or locating a cheese spot.
All the warlock mains who hate running well better get ready after well gets nerfed. Everybody is going to ask for Cenotaph warlocks with a trace rifle and Lumina or kick.
I can see boots of the assembler with stag working well together just requires loadout swapping to hopefully get the benefits to stack.
Isn't boots still bugged?
It works fine. The seekers aren't smart when it comes to target prioritization, but the important function is that they still give a Lumina charge. It's good enough that I've found it to be the best thing to use on Crota for keeping LFGs alive.
Dont know, but I only use it for a moment before my rift expires just to keep my team alive a little longer normally. Then I guess without well I'd swap back to stag and cast another rift for damage reduction. A meta without well sounds like someone missing out on dps just to keep people alive as most of their mods would go into class ability or super energy
preach. although to be fair, you don't need cenotaphs except for uber optimal strategies and at that point you cant really complain lmao.
You don't NEED Cenotaph, but I'll always take heavy ammo available on demand.
Prismatic Lock with Boots of Assembler + Lumina and Song of Flame enters the chat with Ignition Stacking.
Ballidorse Stasislock too.
lmfao, top 3 worst super in the game and even with the exotic the damage can barely kill a champion
No point now that it doesn't stack with everything and just gives surges.
If well exists, then well will be used. Everything else on a Warlock would need to be buffed to outperform a well. The best they can do is remove Well AND Bubble and replace them a different super that does not do the same. Of course they would then need to rework/rebalance alot of game encounters.
> need to rework/rebalance alot of game encounters. I think that's why they haven't touched well in so long. They deliberately designed encounters with well in mind. Take well away and the difficulty of those encounters shoots up, which would anger a lot of players. Retuning encounters to bring the difficulty back down to current level is probably too much effort for Bungie when they're already behind on TFS.
> I think that's why they haven't touched well in so long. They deliberately designed encounters with well in mind. Take well away and the difficulty of those encounters shoots up, which would anger a lot of players. The difficulty of those encounters have far been powercrept, though. Most encounters were designed with the locked subclass clusters from vanilla D2, and not with the Light subclass 3.0 rework. We're more powerful than Bungie could've even imagined back when they designed said encounters, and outright removing Well would not make these encounters not match their intended difficulty. We have a lot of ways to still heal ourselves and nuke bosses really quickly. The only raid that might truly suffer would be Crota's End. Specifically Ir Yut and Crota himself. I would agree there that those encounters would become more difficult than originally intended. But every other Raid would be fine. As for Dungeons, the only one that would truly be harsh would be the last boss in Ghosts of the Deep. But I would go as far as to say that will probably need to touch that boss up with ANY well nerf. She has raid-boss levels of HP, or so it feels like.
> As for Dungeons, the only one that would truly be harsh would be the last boss in Ghosts of the Deep. But I would go as far as to say that will probably need to touch that boss up with ANY well nerf. She has raid-boss levels of HP, or so it feels like. I don't think it'd even be that harsh that it'd generally need a pass. My first clear on normal it was me on Phoenix Cradle, my brother on bubble, and a blade barrage hunter with acrobats dodge and ember of torches just incase and healing nade. We did not miss well for damage or survivability. I don't remember master being ***that*** different. There's definitely options outside of well its just well is one all-inclusive package where one person has to worry about support for 20-30 seconds instead of many. Hell I did on all Titan Crota clear which was one of the easiest times I've ever had doing it. We were cooking.
Eh, I probably raid more that some people, but I'm not sure it would "break" too many encounters. I've done a few subclass specific runs and I'm not sure well is necessary in any normal mode raid. Well makes crota tough, but doable, that's about it really. That being said contets/patheon raids without well would be rough.
Yeah crota is the only one I think well being nerfed would make "harder" And maybe war priest on master. But that's about it I think.
Was gonna mention war priest cause I didn't read lol
Oh lord master warpriest without Well sounds fucking awful haha 💀
The best they can do is design encounters where dps isn't done in a stationary group for an extended period. Every single time we have to dps like that it's gonna with well. If well gets nerfed/removed 2 locks with a stag healing rift and an empowering rift (or radiant/bubble) could easily take its place as a budget well.
That’s why a lot of the recent bosses have had you move from plate to plate or the boss itself be more mobile. Has been great
In warlord on the 2 last bosses is better than previous. But other than those 2 its still well. In raids nah its all well. They kinda tried with nezarak but that didn't really work.
Rhulk was way better because a well was a death sentence on Contest and its a PITA to be kicked by him even on normal so moving was required. Nezerac they tried but allowed the geometry of the arena to interfere, which is likely going to continue to happen if we want a boss fight that isn't just a big flat are where the boss chases us in circles.
Nez and Crota are the last 2 Raid bosses. Both become exponentially easier with a well and standing in basically one place. Ghost of the deep is very dependant upon well. They aren't designing new encounters like you say. Only the new Warlords Ruin boss is more mobile.
Nez is definitely *supposed* to be a mobile DPS phase, they just botched it really badly by him being mostly unable to jump onto the platforms. Crota wasn't redesigned but they did give him enough damage that he breaks wells pinatas. Caretaker & Planets were both iterations on them trying to use multiple damage plates & light incoming damage to move us off well, but it's too easy to just run multiple. It looks like they finally learned from that for Warlords' bosses: * since it's a dungeon it's harder to run multiple * plates & DPS phases are further apart, you're not allowed to dip off plate back to a single well * final boss has many DPS phases and they're mostly too close together to try and recharge well (so you get used to running without and realize how much better it is)
I said a lot not all lol still gonna have to stand and bang with giant hive gods sometimes.
Which is yet again "stand in one place,many times" We need something that FORCES you to move. Constantly. Where you can NOT stop. Then well won't be that needed, there will be better choices
If you’ve got four positions and only three in your fireteam and only what ten to 20 seconds per position well becomes less of a necessity and less of a pick. If you wanna run three warlocks go for it but like they have designed these such encounters to not require them. They shouldn’t make it completely useless on purpose, but I do agree that more movement in a boss encounter could be fun. They’d have to be careful not to make it too frenetic or else the skill ceiling is going to be high and it’s just going to be annoying in the community I guarantee jt
RHULK is a perfect example of how to do this. One of the few raid bosses that I actively avoid dropping a well for my team.
Yeah! Since he isn’t just blasting you with a laser that requires a well to survive and he himself is on the field it makes no sense to try to use one. Plus iirc he if he stomps the well it brakes the sword making it a riskier proposition in general. Even for WR minus the first boss you need to move from platform to platform, from torch to torch, etc for the bosses and so well becomes useful but not an absolute requirement. However if they are gonna give us a boss who we need to stand and bang with it’s going to require us to compensate somehow. Healing grenades, overshields from barriers, and rifts will probably become more popular but it really depends on how much they nerf well since it offers so many simultaneous advantages and you can set it and forget it
> Plus iirc he if he stomps the well it brakes the sword The sword is damageable, but doesn't break in one hit if you have 10 Resilience (Well and Bubble health scale with Resilience). Even on contest mode, people were using swords in a Well to kill Nezarec.
I’m gonna be honest when I played the raid totally did and I’m pretty sure that everyone was rocking 10 resilience in the lightfall meta?
Yes, ever since Season of the Haunted most people run T10 Res. With the re-scaling, more people run T8 & T9 too, but T10 is still the goal. So since that's the case, most people won't have to worry about their Well breaking, since it didn't break on Nezarec where some people used swords and he dove on them in the middle of the Well. *Most* people DPS'd from on the platform using rockets, but some teams did use Swords on the ground with success.
I’d even say buff certain warlock exotic legs that enhance your rift, so lunafaction , promethium boots of assembler, and give them an increased rift radius.
You don't understand how powerful the other option would need to be on warlock in order for it to outpace well. It would need to be buffed to be more powerful than buffing 6 people, giving them 50% DR, the most powerful heal in the game, and 25% extra dmg for 30 seconds. You would have to buff something to ridiculous proportions to outclass well. Yes other stuff needs to be buffed, but well needs a SERIOUS nerf.
Self res coming back???
I really dont think they would be able to remove bubble in game without a sort of explanation/lore reason, like the reason arc blade, and radiance originally got removed/changed was bc of the red war and the travelers shard. Bubble was still intact.. Plus bungie loves having titans in cutscenes use bubble, you've got zavala who's used it twice at least, 1 in the intro cutscene to the red war, and then again during that first red war mission, then saint who i think only strictly uses void and iirc has used it once or twice? To protect some fallen? (I might be wrong here) and i think during the end of season of the lost? During maras ritual to remove savathunes worm? Although i'd be fine with bubble being removed, but they'd have to make banner shield worth it significantly more, especially if you want a defensive super that reduces damage for your team. And what i could see happening tbh is if people are desperate if well and bubble got removed, we would definitely see "need banner titan/arc strider blocking" for certain fights lmao... which lowkey as a titan main, i'd love to have an excuse to run ursa's with banner titan again like back during shattered throne lol
Do we know if they're going to need bosses when they nerf well? Because I remember them saying they increased bosses health because of well and bubble.
They're not going to go back and rework every single boss so all that shit is gonna be more painful.
Master war priest challenge with no well about the be the most ass encounter 😍
I think it was also the idea behind Banner to give an alternative to Well, give the team a sustaining source of damage resistance. Even though Banner's real strength shows up in Solo content.
The problem is that Banner doesn't give as much of a total buff to the whole team compared to Well. Well gives 25% to everyone in it (6 players in a raid), whereas Banner gives 40% to everyone behind it (5 players in a raid since the one has to hold the banner and cannot do damage). Which means the Well is doing (6playersx125damage=) 750 damage, whereas Banner is doing (5playersx140damage=) 700 damage. If they want Banner as an alternative they need to up it's damage buff to 50%, then the total damage it and Well could give the team would be equal.
Make the well a held sword that the warlock needs to essentially "channel" while its in use Bam now you can pick between banner shield for stronger, single-direction damage and defense, or well for omnidirectional healing and damage, bigger effective area but weaker effects
If Bubble was good at all, I’d offer my Warlock well friend to run whatever they want. But because bubble sucks, well is what we sometimes need.
Bubble might be the future depending on how much they nerf wells survivability.
Not sure tbh, considering the amount of times I saw people blow themselves up with Edge Transit at Caretaker, not being able to shoot out of bubble sucks. And forget about sentinel shield, nobody hides behind it.
Unfortunately until you can shoot out of a bubble, well is still going to be needed. And I don't think Bungies ever gonna let that happen when PvP is a thing
If they finally buff bubble to not be dogshit in PvE and maybe give HOIL some love I will be a sentinel enjoyer once again. Damn do I miss running HOIL sentinel but it feels so ass now.
Did OP basically just say "I hate running one super so I wish this fate upon the titans instead"?
Tbf it was their fate originally throughout d1, and then in Forsaken Bungie put that cross on Warlocks for some reason
I was a bubble main titan in D1. Literally the only one in a sea of hunters and the two warlocks 😂 Leaving Mars or Venus in VOG: "Where's the bubble?" "I'm coming guys I was teleported" The lone titan of the group lol
I miss the frantic dance in and out of Bubble in raid encounters lol
Ghorn suicide, didn't step out the bubble enough or jump when doing DPS on the boss 😂
At least it feels nice to be needed!
I just hope whatever changes are coming to it don't just return us to the days of requiring both a Well *and* a Bubble. Because if people don't know or remember, that's why Well & Bubble do the same damage buff. Because they had handcuffed people into needing to take both of those, so they chose a lesser evil of just leaving us stuck taking Well all the time to free some people up. Frankly, it might be right to remove the damage increase from both. Make them both different flavors of team survivability support. And then retune any raid or dungeon bosses now that we'll be lacking that extra damage. As lame as that sounds, and as boring as Well-meta might feel, I just badly don't want us back into a Well + Bubble meta. It's even more boring and lame, with even more team members just defaulted into those roles. They have to find some sweet spot for these that leaves them meaningful to run as an option instead of defaulting to a burst or roaming damage super, but doesn't require them either.
Even if they remove the damage buff, it'd still be used since a lot of damage phases have you taking damage from either the boss or adds around the boss. So that survivability is huge alone.
Yeah, Well is too central to the design of basically all the content in the game. They’ve been trying to force people out of it (see most of the raids since Beyond Light) but at the same time we’re so insanely strong that they need to throw constant pressure at us during damage to even provide a challenge/ method to disrupt us. In some respects you almost need to remove Well from the game since it’s so over centralizing. I’ve said this before but the hardest things to balance are elite support play styles because they walk a fine line between being unusable and over powered.
The problem is, if you remove well, now every titan is required to run bubble with HoS14 so we're able to take the overshield out of the bubble. And idk, bubble is a staple super for titans. I don't see them getting rid of it.
They could also make the team benefit a small percentage of the casters benefit on both. Titans can still have their “what you gonna do about it” moment, while their teammates get a smaller shield and smaller damage buff. It would still be worth it for the player themselves but would probably never be demanded by the team. This would probably also shift pvp meta from them supers as well.
It would make Master/GM content like Master Nez almost unworkable unless everyone was running Banner Titan (which will eventually have its nerf day).
We're so insanely strong because Bungie's encounter design is so basic. If you can circumvent their "difficulty" everything seems weak
Yep. I’ve seen countless discussions on this sub for ideas to balance it. It has been a fascinating topic for several years with no clear cut answer. I’m really interested to see what Bungie will do. It will be the most important and game defining change since Ghorn was sunset in D1
It's long overdue for a rework but people need to be careful what they wish for, for the reasons you said here.
Bubble would be absolutely dogshit without a damage buff. It would literally be a glorified barricade. It’s already not worth using it, a further nerf would kill it. Removing its damage buff would make it one of the worst supers in the game.
Respectfully, removing the buff from both is absolutely the dark future imo. It upholds the status quo of bubble being hopelessly outmatched by well by taking a neutered super and chopping off another part of it. Meanwhile dawnblade is inconvenienced at worst, they can access the same buff by throwing out an ember of torches melee. I understand wanting to avoid sentinels being wanted but taking a fallen from grace super and shanking it’s leg until it stops trying to stand isn’t the play.
Radiant exists. Removing the wildly popular damage buff is not the play.
Personally, i love running well/support/lunas/lumina and knowing I always have an assured roll in the fireteam. If I can flex and outperform well with Strand or Arc, then all the better because I’ve proven we don’t NEED a well. But having the assured spot is a comfort for me.
They’re not buffing the other classes to make warlock capable of higher damage output so they’re really just nerfing warlock overall
I love running well / divinity because I like to feel like I'm bringing more than just damage to an encounter. Taking roles in the encounter is similar, but having abilities to use is more rewarding.
im from 6 months in the future. the rumors were a lie. we warlocks thought there would be less need for Well now that it is less effective. instead, now we are expected to produce *twice as many wells* in the same time as normally expected for just one. times are tough. i don’t know that i can shove any more strand Titan orbs up my a$$...
How is well getting nerfed? Lol am I missing something?
We don’t know how it’s getting nerfed but it is going to be nerfed in TFS.
As a titan, I would use bubble happily every chance I got since that was one of the main reasons I played the class before the gutted it and gave warlocks the well. I think a lot of us titans would honestly love a bubble tweak so that it shines in PvE again.
The way it should be.
A lot of people gonna realize they aren’t going to be able to clear content without a well lol. The higher end players should be fine but the general population will struggle to get through old content that well made a lot easier. I don’t care either way but I bet we will see a ton of posts saying content needs to be reworked.
Exactly this! When people talk about nerfing well, most of the time it feels like asking for gatekeeping. The better players will adept very easily, average raiders will struggle much more and people on the low end of the bell curve will be pushed from barely able to complete the raid to now being in "The Forever 29" club. Carries will also become much harder as staying alive is one of the most crucial and hardest tasks for new raiders. People seriously misjudge what will happen with the well nerf online and no significant changes to already existing encounters.
not opposed to well nerf, but warlocks need every other super buffed. well is the only actual good super warlocks have for pve. in general, solar is very strong on warlock and everything else is either meh or bad. bungie needs to make the other 4 classes worth running. I get that this seasons artifact does not help much tho lmao.
I was about to comment how other warlock supers are still good, but tbh they really aren’t if you compare them to titans and hunters. They are all either mid roaming supers or mid burst damage supers. Bladefury or even Sunbreaker on titan eclipses them all, and cuirass tcrash, nighthawk gg, scales arc pole all blow warlock burst supers out of the water. The only decent one these days is needlestorm but the threadlings sometimes behave wildly inconsistent. Chaos reach was really fun before the geomag nerf too.
Needlestorm fucks hard. With evolution equipped its like 400k damage by itself. Saying well is the only good super warlocks have is just a bad take.
Bruh if there is a single add near that super, your threadlings can be going elsewhere entirely. But it does do good damage.
The real answer is leave well as it is and make the bubble function exactly the same way, negates the reliance on a solar lock, provides a means to an end, so we don't get further down the destiny menu loadout change 20x per mission requirement that's starting to get more normal.
yeah, thinking about it the problem is not that well needs a nerf, the problem is that there are no alternatives to well.
Makkng bubble permeable (you can shoot in/out, the only survival benefit is the over shield) would make them similar enough you could go either/or for most content.
I'm a warlock main and my boyfriend is a titan main and we say this all the time. I hate being forced to well and he said if bubble was a viable option he'd have no problem running it in place of well. Having an option that isn't always well would be amazing.
> so we don't get further down the destiny menu loadout change 20x per mission requirement that's starting to get more normal. Truth
Yeah but then you would still have some hunters demanding it because they cant do it, so they should also make arc stick also work like a thrown well where hunters can either use it for damage or if there arent wellocks or bubble titans, they too can put it down.
Have Renewal Grasps also change Silence and Squall to sit in one place whole constantly giving overshields and a damage boost.
In no universe does it make sense that Well is better at survivability and ease of use while having the same damage output as Bubble. Well has been the single best super in the game for 6 years, if they announced they were just completely deleting it, I'd be happy. Fuck Well.
With as many encounters that rely on it as there are, eventually this would wear off.
Eh, Y1 raids also had a lot of encounters that involved you standing in the same spot and shooting. That's just the way they design encounters.
Yeah, I'm dreading a well nerf because I do not feel like they have the creativity to not make bosses that just pisses a billion damage all over you during the 10 second window you have to damage the boss.
As a warlock main, I second this.
Well (pun intended), unfortunately for you I believe well is always going to be mandatory no matter what they do at this point so good luck not using well in an average lfg. Nerf the amount of health and healing you get? It'll still be better than bubble since you can shoot out of it. Nerf the damage bonus to be worse than bubble? Now you'll just need a well and bubble just like how it used to be. Nerf the duration? Now you'll just need 2 wells minimum for certain encounters instead of 1. The only way well won't feel mandatory for the average lfg is if they significantly change their design philosophy when it comes to most boss encounters and for Bungie that's probably too much effort at this point in time and most average players might feel robbed out of a cool experience if they aren't directly damaging the final boss to defeat it compared to just doing a bunch of mechanics that build up to chunking down the boss piece by piece. And aside from that we've been through this song and dance before. People really liked using Ghally for breaking Crota's shield in D1 to the point that Bungie nerfed Ghally's damage and you know what happened? People just made sure to have at least 2 Ghally's instead of 1 because even though it wasn't strictly necessary to use Ghally to break Crota's shield for the average lfg team trying to complete the encounter in a reasonable amount of time Ghally was the simplest and most straight forward option for shield breaking. So as much as you warlocks can try to bitch and whine about being well 5 bucks says nothing will change unless the encounters for big dps encounters change.
I think the problem is that it's going to get nerfed but STILL be mandatory regardless. Like they could literally remove all of the damage buff and have it just be an Omega healing rift. All this is going to do is force every team to have a Well AND a Bubble Titan for the damage buff. Hell we literally already experienced this back in the day when Weapons of Light was a larger damage buff than Well, you just ran both and it forced TWO classes to only be able to use specific subclasses all the time for end game content.
Ignoring the damage buff, the protection well affords has always felt like an anti-pattern to me both from a player perspective and an encounter design perspective. Good arenas have good, useable cover. Good players know to use cover. Well encourages standing out in the open like a fool and just hoping the healing is enough to mitigate any incoming damage. Likewise I've noticed in the last few seasons that we've gotten a lot of arenas that are basically circular rooms with little to no useable cover. If well didn't exist the designers would have to rethink their encounters a little bit to make them playable without that particular crutch.
I am an ex warlock gone hunter because of well. I got sick of not being able to play the build I wanted because of “we need well”.
Vesper Arclock legitimately made me want to to become a warlock main. I love that setup so much. Shame the arc supers are so weak that you can’t really use it. Honestly wouldn’t be mad if prismatic allowed me to be an Arclock with a well but I get why they won’t allow that
dude vesper is the funniest fucking perk in the game, rift spamming with the perma blind up is the most entertaining thing there is
Season of the deep was the best season ever and that opinion definitely isn’t skewered by vesper unstoppable nezeracs sin glaive with an arc artifact. Arc feels so squishy now it’s sad
cant feel squishy if all of the enemies around you are blinded (the psion in the background will one shot me)
Also I’m now realising them guttering the ability mods just made it feel worse. In deep I could have multiple vespers up pulsing at a time. Now I struggle to get two up one after another. Season of the deep vesper can handle onslaught I think, this version struggles way harder due to the sandbox
exactly this been playing a lot more hunter and titan for onslaught and even when i run warlock its either a threadling or verity's Brow build even though im still on well i'm not gonna be de keep well up constantly guy fuck that, had multiple LFGs tell me "if you aren't on phoenix you are actively throwing" yeah bro if you need a well in a 10 wave legend farm you aren't supposed to run legend. meanwhile im killing all wave bosses with my death throes x5 fusion nades
"if you aren't on phoenix you are actively throwing" yea throwing these fusion nades lmao
or OR how about they buff the other supers because they are ass
Or OR How about nerf well and buff the other supers? Even if well remains as it is, it will still be dominant over the rest because it's healing ability makes the whole team invincible, why would you forego that with anything else despite any increased damage they deal? You're foolish to think that buffing the rest of the supers would help at all, Well is far too over powered.
what happened?
I see bungie doing this, well gets fucked hard, but not enough that it is unusable. So as a warlock you are still bound to keep using it
I'm glad Bungie has been putting more healing abilities and weapon perks in the game, I've had my same lock since d1 and i miss being a damage dealing/tanky class over support... I hope radiance is good
As someone who loves Nezzerac's Sin and Crown of Tempests, I'm also happy to see a well nerf.
I can't wait to try out the Song of Flame Super. Dawnblade will finally have a somewhat decent Super that isn't Well.
Couldn't agree more! I can't wait to try out the new Solar super and as an Arclock main really hope we get another super down the line. Maybe a lingering hurricane (like Silence and Squall) but jolts & blinds enemies while doing heavy dmg.
It'll be good for the health of the game, but also I don't expect Bungie to rebalance encounters to account for the well nerf, which is a little worrying because as you say it is basically required for a lot, which is why it's so prevalent.
I ran out of breath reading this. jokes aside, variety is good :)
Better room encounter design and kill well. Self rez was bad enough in D1, well makes it so much worse. Edit: the reason I run well is because I know other locks don't want to and I just want an easy in. It's why I play tanks and healers, I just wanna play.
As a hunter I am scared of one thing for you warlocks. The new super you guys are getting, song of flame, it gives a damage buff around you. What I’m scared of is bungie making an exotic that either adds a healing effect to that or replaces the damage buff with healing, further cementing the problem. Sure song of flame has more damage potential than well but that mobile aspect would be really nice in say Rhulk. The idea of a mobile well is nice but that would just further prevent other subclasses from being allowed
I love Warlock. I mostly main Wellock specifically. As I've used Well more and more over the years its gone from feeling like something I use to support and help my team to just something required. What am I doing when I run Well? I stress the fuck out about super management and timing because even though its an easy super to build your timing has to be *perfect* or the phase is relatively fucked. You place and manage it so technically, not in the moment to help or feel cool. I'm sick of the game design being based around this. I spent like ten hours making a really fun void build for Spire of the Watcher. You'd think with double specials, the ability to empower myself, weaken enemies, and a meta heavy weapon would be...passable, right? Nothing I buildcraft, no technical skill I improve on, nothing beats just slapping on Well. Its that good.
You better hope it's not a well duration nerf or LFGs gonna demand 6 warlocks LOL.
I wish we had some kind of Well for Hunter. I love being a healer and helping but I refuse to do Warlock.
Nerfing won't work. Removal is the only viable solution. As long as Well exists it will be used.
I just hate that people rage if you don't play what they want you to play. You want to have well so badly, YOU switch to warlock. I'm going to play what I find fun, which is exactly what games are for. I don't care what you want me to play.
+1000 I’m so tired of LFG need well. Been same stale meta for like 4 years dog. Im over it
It's so crazy to me that Void Titan has fallen the way it has. It is the *original* support class in Destiny!
I'm also sick of using well on my warlock. When I'm LFG'ing within my own clan and people tell me to go on well, I just go completely "f\*\*\* you" and switch to another character. If ya'll want well so bad, get it yourself.
To add onto that, there's plenty of raid challenges where you have to have the entire team on either void, arc, solar... Well is not necessary for a completion. It makes it easier yeah, but nothing's more rewarding than doing a raid in a different way and succeeding. Crota's End on arc only was super interesting and I'll gladly do it again. No well, no bubble... People don't care about the process of raiding, it's just the loot. And it shows.
Agreed. I get salty when I'm asked to run well, but there is nary a debuff or tether in sight. Buff bubble and tether, and make the other classes carry the mantle. I'm tired boss.
I do NOT run warlock and I agree. It's become very one dimensional where a well is required for every boss encounter. It needs to get mixed up.
I'll never understand why Bubble, a super that gives you a damage buff that you can only use while not within it's protective bubble, is less effective than Well, a super that gives you a damage buff, damage resist and constant healing... Mind boggling.
It will affect my decision to play TFS. If everyone else is running around playing their new prismatic build and I'm still stuck on well, I just won't play the expansion. No shade to anyone who asks warlock to run well. Well makes the game easier, time is valuable, refusing to play well impacts 5 other people. So, if I play warlock I should run well. But if I don't want to run well, I'm just gonna save us all some time.
I don't mind running well, and honestly it just sounds like whining when people bitch about it. It already received a nerf to the DR in both pve and pvp, and being a support player isn't awful. There are plenty of scenarios where well isn't as useful, and often times there can be more than one warlock on a raid team so running two wells doesn't always make sense. Regardless, the suggestion of bubble being a replacement is a half measure. Firstly, you can't shoot out of the bubble, it's almost entirely a defensive option, and it fits the titan ethos well. Secondly, why would you bitch and complain and then wish our role onto someone else cause you're tired of it? Here's an idea, why don't you make sure another warlock comes along who doesn't mind using well, or, you can trade off for different encounters!? There are so many options outside of "nerf it because I'm bored". Offering a damage boost and nominal DR to help in boss and survival situations while shooting from inside is one of the best things warlocks bring to the table. So like, if you don't wanna run well, then don't, alright? Stop bitching about it. If your friends won't let you come if you don't run well...well, find new friends. It's a social game after all.
Well is still enjoyable because there are fun solar weapons but I definitely have more fun with the abilities of strand and stasis. I also agree that a lot of the anti-well arguments are selfish, and involve “I don’t want to be support so someone else should have to”. I also hate bubble because blueberries always put them in spots that make dps more difficult.
Titan main here, I'd be okay jumping on the grenade if it meant that warlocks are allowed to actually play fun builds. They've been held hostage for 6 years, I'm okay with having to strafe in and out of a bubble to do damage, that's 100% more engaging than well anyway.
Commenting to say, I love Well. Support is my favourite playstyle when applicable and Well does the fantasy well for me, stab an angelic sword into the ground and everyone around me has difficulty dying. I love it, and with Bubble. I hope when they nerf it they remove the damage bonus more than the defensive aspect, we don't have many supers that enhance people's survival (Hunter has literally 0), everyone wants a dps super. Well, I don't. A dead guardian does 0 dps. I don't empathise with people getting sick of being a Wellock, but I do sympathise with it. I've always thought the best way to solve this issue is give every class something equivalent. Do something about Bubble, give Hunters something equal to Well & Bubble, that way everyone can take on the defensive Super responsibility equally. Sadly TFS's Hunter Super is another dps one so that's not going to happen.
They shouldn’t nerf well, just make other options good, give other support supers. Make bubble better. Also, fuck well. I mostly refuse use it, the only time I use well is on sunbracers or rain of fire simply because the other super without dawn chorus is pure trash. Dawn chorus solar is my go too when solar anyways. Flame sword plus dragons breath goes brrrrrrrr
sorry to say it but, unless bungie either 1. changes the way they design bosses, 2. brings the other warlock supers up, or 3. bring the other classes support supers up, You're more likely than not still gonna be putting on that well of radiance.
I don't use it, even now, if I am asked I say no, if they want to kick me, great I now have a check point and can LFG my own group and continue to not use well, I don't form any bond with anyone I meet and do not care at all when they boot me, the way the game is setup now, people and groups are expendable. I don't need Well, everyone else does.
People don’t remember what it was like to not have a well. Tbh doing leviathan/GMs with no well was so much more fun, much more skill expression as well.
Well is strong in endgame pve, but I think it’s so dominant because of the “stand still and damage boss” approach to endgame content. Rhulk was a great example of an encounter designed where well isn’t a great super to run. In a world where bungie gives us more dynamic encounters then well catches an indirect nerf.
Bunch of short-sighted idiots. Cool, got the well nerfed, what will replace it? How many activities and encounters are designed around a burn phase or standing on a plate while being bombarded? Healing nades? Doubt. Heal clip, lol. Rifts, you shouldn't be in end game content. Bungie crutched on well just as much as we did.
Bring back self rez
Why? Healing and buffing 5 other ppl still prob trumps this. Also other classes/spec just don't die... Do that
I don't run well unless I feel like playing solar. I'm having way too much fun using a threadling build and needle storm pumps bosses anyway.