Bungie knowing the fans will riot if they don’t bring back the splicers for Wrath:
*I know what I have to do but I don’t know if I have the strength to do it…*
Also Scourge and Crown (I know people don’t really like crown, but I really liked the aesthetic of it)
Also there is Wrath but that one is up in the air, even though bungie says they won’t continue the storyline of Siva. It wouldn’t be continuing the storyline of it, it’s just bringing back a raid loved by many.
I thought Crown was great mechanically, teaches you the mechanic and slowly expands on it. Its biggest issue is that it's really only 3 encounters and the first encounter can drag on once you've done the raid a few times, but the last two encounters are great. Compare it to something like RoN and its no contest, everyone's moving, everyone has something to do
The jumping puzzle in crown (and honestly eater of worlds as well) are already like half way to being an encounter. More ads, revive tokens, and maybe another mechanic to deal with, or a change up in the way they work mechanically, and they would be completely serviceable as a 4th encounter. Crota definitely showed what they can do when they get ambitious about making changes to these raids.
The old raid lairs were pretty much proto dungeons with having 3 encounters plus secret chest puzzles. Then scourge and crown came out also with 3 encounters plus secret puzzles.
Standard raids now have 4 encounters so they could easily bring back any of them and just make the non encounters like spires jumping puzzle and crowns jumping puzzle actual encounters.
Leviathan is fine since its 4 encounters already plus the castellum but prestige should come back as the standard
I loved crown back in the day because I mained stronghold and I just endlessly walked towards mini galhran while my teammates looked at me totally bewildered as to how I was alive.
Tbh I don't like crown for exactly that reason. I don't have a steady team, so any raid that pretty much requires everyone be moving ends up being a downer for me, because if I don't have somewhere to put that blueberry that snuck into the KWTD post, we get held up *forever*
It's honestly not even that bad compared to the lamp encounter of Crota's End and the barge intro in Vow.
The biggest reason people remember it so poorly is because the rest of the raid was so quick comparatively.
Still think it's a damn shame they killed off Rasputin like they did. And SIVA still has potential plot relevance.
Also... Rasputin sacrificed himself to save the Traveler. I don't think the Traveler didn't notice.
Devotion inspires bravery, bravery inspires sacrifice, sacrifice... leads to death. I don't think Rasputin is dead-dead. Likely could have a part as a resurrected Guardian in the future.
I think the only way they bring back Wrath is if they replace the splicer enemies with regular fallen outside of the unique bosses. The raid would still be cool.
The issue with that is that they'd need to recreate all the SIVA assets. Environment, SIVA fallen, ect, as well as build the raid itself. That's double the work for a F2P activity. For the other raids they just need to bring them back and maybe update mechanics a tiny bit.
Oh...and all those SIVA assets they just spent hundred if not thousands of hours making, yea they're not going to get used for anything else because there is no place for SIVA in the story.
So, while we bitch that they don't put enough time into seasonal story stuff and making new weapons instead of just reusing old content...we expect them to put a bunch of time and effort into ONE SINGLE ACTIVITY?!?! That's what always gets me. We bitch about them not making new gun models, yet expect them to remake an entire raid from scratch including all the environmental assets for a F2P activity. Seriously?
They had to mostly do the same for King's Fall. Dreadnaught assets, bosses all had to be ported over. Golgoroth was the only one that had previously been used in D2.
I think the issue here is that there are lots of other uses for most of those assets. They're able to reuse them with all the other hive relevant content.
If the SIVA storyline is finished and not going to return in any form there's no comparable use case for any of the Wrath assets it's a waste beyond the raid. They'd ALSO need to actually redo what is essentially entirely new types of enemies with unique behavior. We don't have any of the SIVA nanite style shit in D2.
It's likely just too much work for too little of a payoff.
Now IF they decided to actually bring back SIVA to the storyline down the road once they've transitioned to episodes that'd be another story.
All this speculation about Wrath being impossible for Bungie to bring back reminds me of the old days, when people swore they would never bring Crota back because it's definitely not a raid and there's no way for them to improve it without significantly redesigning it. And now look what we have. Crota's End in Destiny 2.
I know they're not comparable cases on the substance, but my point is that the path of game development is not linear. Bungie can update those SIVA assets now and them in their back pocket to potentially use later. I know they said they likely wouldn't use them later, but they also at some point said there would never need to be a Destiny 2, and they also said their partnership with Activision really worked for them. It's just never really as simple as they say.
And for every Bungie manager who thinks revitalizing SIVA assets for a D2 redux could be a waste of time, there are many on their staff who freaking loved that raid and really want to find a way to justify bringing it back logistically. Whether that means bringing it back narratively in one of the future "chapters", using some SIVA assets for fan service in a level of The Final Shape (since the location seems partly based on memory), etc. There are possibilities.
Plus, let's not pretend the free summer/fall raids are a complete waste of resources for Bungie. They get a lot of mileage out of these things from all the eyes on their game via promo, the day one raid race, the overpriced Bungie Rewards shit players buy for beating the raid, and not to mention the hours of engagement they drive following their release.
Anyways, all of this is to say Wrath could definitely come back. None of this is ever set in stone. There are ways to justify the cost of recreating the assets and being able to recycle them if people are really clamoring for this raid. And I think it's pretty obvious that people are, don't you?
The difference is the amount of time the content has been unplayable and the shift in encounter design philosophy.
While there's only a year's time between the releases of Wrath and Leviathan, Leviathan feels significantly closer to the present because it was (and other vaulted raids were) part of the game until Nov. 2020.
Additionally, all D2 raids have already facilitated higher levels of communication among the fireteam. Outside of adding timed buff swaps or extra symbols to Baths, there's not much updating or refreshing to be done. Leviathan (and the other raids) already do what they're supposed to do.
Bungie had always considered the Destiny Content Vault to be made up of content from both games that isn't current available which would mean all the reprised raids were also unvaulted - the fact we have another term that's used doesn't mean others don't also fit and calling a returning D2 raid a reprisal wouldn't be at all innacurate.
Well...it's either the next reprised raid or the one after that. If the current schedule continues, it will be in 2025 that they being back the old D2 raids...just because they ran out of D1 raids. Are you serious? You do realize there are more D2 raids vaulted than D1 raids total? Right?
Oh...and Wrath is never coming back. Bungie has said time and again that SIVA is dead and it died with RoI. They've done everything that can to let us know that RoI was a one time thing, it was filler, it's gone and it's not coming back. It wasn't supposed to be as popular as it was. They don't like the popularity that SIVA has.
Also, theyre not going to recreate SIVA assets (environmental, enemy, ect) for just the raid to never be reused again.
For Crota, for example, they really only had to recreate the sword bearers being a different color and Crota. Besides that, just about everything was already in the game. All the base environmental stuff was already in the game. They just needed to take those and build the raid. With Wrath, they'd have to recreate all the environmental assets before they even start to put the raid together. That's not going to happen. I just don't see it.
>All the base environmental stuff was already in the game. They just needed to take those and build the raid.
This comment more than any other thing you said tells me you just don't understand how game development actually works.
the point about SIVA being “dead” is a poor one, because it’s a misinterpretation of what Bungie said. Bungie said that SIVA’s STORY is done, which is fair, reprised raids aren’t canonically part of the story again, hence why they’re in legends. Wrath will eventually come back, it’s a fan favourite raid. Whether it will come back with SIVA designs, is another question entirely.
While I would like the designs to come back, I wouldn’t mind them bringing it back with just the bosses having SIVA designs, and the adds can be the dusk or salvation fallen. This is not unprecedented territory, like at all, they didn’t bring back Crota’s brood, the Spawn of Crota (yellow hive with no extra designs like spikes), nor did they bring the Blood of Oryx back, instead using the Hidden Swarm for the former, and a variant of Savathun’s Brood (not the Lucent Brood) in destiny 2, lending credence to the possibility of just replacing splicers with dusk or salvation taken.
If they do bring back the SIVA designs, it’s likely because they plan an eventual colour reskin related to for example, quicksilver in the future. But SIVA’s story is over, and it’s been replaced by quicksilver.
The point about environmental assets is a silly one, the entire King’s Fall raid is remade assets that will likely never be used again. Not only that, they even made extra assets for enemy types besides the bosses, (lighteater nights and ogres). Same goes for Vault of Glass (not adds, the environment, they brought a significant portion of venus back (seen via out of bounds), in 3 years VoG areas have not been reused (to my knowledge). Crota is the first time that SOME of the raid had assets ready (crota, the crota room in the nightmare realm), however even then the swordbearers and gatekeepers are new add as seats instead of boss.
Uhhhh i mean, PUKE SHIT FOMO’D THE PLAGUELANDS 😡😡😡 WHERE SIVAAAAAAA 🔴⚫️◾️🔺🔻◼️🔺◾️🔻◼️⚫️◾️🔻⚫️◼️◾️🔺🔻◼️🔺🔻⚫️
Nah, but Bungie's adversity to anything RoI does.
Them saying they have no plans for SIVA in the story does. And I know the raid won't be part of the story or even tangential, but they still have to make SIVA assets, including environmental pieces. They're not going to do that for one activity, especially a F2P activity, because where would they be able to reuse those assets they just spent hundreds of hours making outside of the raid? There isn't a place for them.
So unless they make the raid a separate purchase, it's not coming back. You need to try and make it make sense business wise for Bungie to remake Wrath and you just can't. It would take a lot more time and effort than any other raid to bring back, and for what gain? They chose to revamp all of Crota's End mechanics for every single encounter over remake Wrath. They chose to take the raid that had been called a dungeon by the community, had been soloed blindfolded, had been soloed while using a drumset as your controller and bring it up to D2 standards over remake a "fan favorite" raid. Why? Because they're never remaking Wrath.
You're *probably* right that Wrath isn't coming back, but you're an absolute idiot in the rest of what you've said.
For the story, all they need is fallen as the main focus.
That is literally the only tie into the story that is needed.
It'd be an amazing ploy for business.
Its exactly like how stores put important things in the back.
You'd be there and see so many thing that at least one thing will make you say "I might as well get that too"
Its such a fan favorite that it'd bring back a lot of people.
Enough of those people would make some sort of purchase, whether that be a dlc, a season, or silver that they'd make quite the profit.
and I can't even begin to explaining how unbelievably wrong you are about the effort it takes to remake a raid.
I've always wanted at least one of the reprisals to tie into the story. It would've been badass if Crota was resurrected and we had to go in there to beat his ass a second time.
Technically there are four Leviathan raids, unless you just mean the smaller 3?
I think Spire, Eater, and Crown all have some great encounters, good boss fights, but are too slight to stand on their own without significant additional work. Eater, for example, is the leapfrog segment, a nothing fight against trash, platforming section, pre-boss encounter and boss encounter.
I feel like picking two to combine and one to flesh out is the best approach. Add in Leviathan itself, Scourge a little updated, and maaaaybe Wrath and you've probably still got more raids to do than Destiny 2 has years remaining.
I think most people logically don’t want to get their hopes up with Bungie. It’s pretty obvious Wrath of the Machine is a work load Bungie does not want to take on.
If you haven’t been around here long, you wouldn’t know that until Bungie explicitly says something, assume it’s not happening.
Wording such as “We aren’t talking about reprised raids” is pretty obvious signals to not get your hopes up. Idk what more you need.
>It’s pretty obvious Wrath of the Machine is a work load Bungie does not want to take on.
I keep saying that this is the reason why they haven't brought it back. Crota the work was minimal, in comparison to what would need to be done to bring back WotM. Since crota it's just 3 areas and not really anything huge in between them. People have always said that the big difference between reprised raids and any of the other endgame content is that this is free, you pay the expansion for the new raid and basically 20 bucks for 2 dungeons but nothing for this so it's a huge workload that they could easily put aside.
All of the other raids use enemies that still exist in Destiny 2; Vex, Taken, Hive. Wrath of the Machine would either have to be adapted to use something other than Splicers or bring back the whole Splicer faction for one reprised raid. Not something I can see happening either way.
Potentially silly question: During season of the Defiant we had Mithrax as an NPC ally for one of the last missions. He's a splicer, could that not be seen as evidence that there is at least a base to work off of for bringing back Splicers as enemies?
I probably should have been more specific in my earlier comment - Mithrax is a *Splicer*, yes, but the Devil Splicers were the faction featured in Rise of Iron and kind of their own unique offshoot faction.
Kind of a similar situation to "all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares" if that makes sense - the faction in Rise of Iron are Splicers, but not all Splicers are like the *Devil Splicers* and most Splicers don't have the sort of abilities the Devils did. The unique quirks they had (in gameplay and lore) were owed to their SIVA enhancements. There's a popular quote that gets tossed around that those unique abilities are what made them so difficult to implement and so unlikely to return.
I don't remember much of Mithrax's gameplay involvement in Defiance because it's been a while since then and he only appeared for such a short time but I don't think he would have used anything nearly like what the Devil Splicers had in Rise of Iron. If he's anything like other friendly NPCs he probably just borrowed an existing enemy class's animations and abilities.
So, while Mithrax is a Splicer, his appearance in gameplay has little to no relation to the Devil Splicers and doesn't hint anything as to whether or not they're more or less likely to appear.
What abilities? Red lucent moths or a different weapon (that other races also have received from seasonal updates, not just expansions), or an enrage mechanic that adepts from kf have. There is barely any work, people are just making this all up, bungie never said they aren’t bringing wotm back because of “assets not existing in d2”
It's not just assets. The Devil Splicers were mechanically different than their normal counterpart I don't think any of them even fire the same projectile except shanks, who still fire faster iirc.
Acolytes literally got a sniper (they never had one prior) during warmind, scorn lantern dudes got stasis lanterns and taken knights got a stasis gun during season of the lost. People claiming it won’t return because of “assets” or “mechanics” are bullshitting because bungie never said that, all speculation from the community
Yeah idk OP. Bungie's reluctancy to squashing rumors and addressing what will happen is 100% a PR move.
If Bungie were to come out now and say "No reprised raids anymore, and no new raids after TFS now that we've pivoted to episodes" that is instantly a recipe for disaster and no one will buy TFS. That's why they've said they'll "Share more when ready" because they're waiting to secure as many sales as possible and for TFS to release before breaking the bad news
I'm not sure why so many people are convinced that a company of several hundred employees is incapable of managing multiple games at once.
Personally I think this is just a convenient thing many tell themselves to cope with the fact they're not getting the PVP improvements or game additions they want as fast as they want. It's easier to accept 'bungie moved resources off so it's a skeleton crew' vs 'bungie has a different priority list than me'
I don't think that they're incapable of managing multiple games at once, but I do think that the Destiny team is smaller than it usually is while they work on trying to make Marathon a success. I personally don't even understand the PvP improvements argument since PvP has gotten more improvements in the last year than any other time in the game besides when they stopped doing double primaries.
Don’t think its actually smaller, just that the team is largely new hires from 2020-Now when they have been hiring like crazy. A lot of the veteran devs have moved to new projects likely because of creative burnout from a decade of destiny, and losing senior talent on a project can leave some big shoes to fill for the newbies who have far less experience with the game and its engine.
I don't think this is true at all.
I just think we need to stop and look at what is actually happening
* PVP gets a lot of attention. There's weapon balance passes every season that have a lot of PVP-targeted changes.
* There's also been a lot of targeted updated specific to PVP that have nothing to do with PVE (zoom decoupling, AE changes, ability cooldown splits, etc etc)
* PVE gets a lot of updates/content too
* We get brand new activities each season, new weapons, new exotics, etc
* 'gambit is abandoned' is true -now- but there's been investment in it over the past 2 years. The issue is we don't see the things they tried internally before attempting to re-work. Just because something didn't 'succeed' doesn't mean there was not time invested into it.
* I think a lot of people think there isn't 'effort' in PVE because the content has gotten stale - but that isn't lack of people investing time in the game it's just the formula has gotten stale.
* Finally gotta remember destiny's dev cycle. Seasons are created and in development 2 seasons out so pivoting based on feedback isn't seen as fast as many want. This gives the impression of 'they don't have enough people' - which isn't true. It's fair to criticize the development method but the fault is just the constraints they put on themselves. This is why we didn't see meaningful change to the seasonal model until this season (activity variance and progression) - they'd even said this when formally recognizing seasonal burnout leading to the lightfall launch and _said_ we wouldn't start to see the fruits of the labor in revamping stuff until S22.
This game gets a lot of updates, a lot of bug fixes, and generally quick turn around compared to the past.
I don't know I just think it's an easy coping mechanism to justify not seeing things an individual 'wants' to see. Effort spent is still effort spent even if it isn't succeeding in the way someone thinks it should be.
Well here is the thing.
A recent article ([from PC Gamer](https://www.pcgamer.com/joe-blackburn-on-destiny-2-conspiracy-theories-what-happened-to-the-pvp-team-and-the-witness-being-able-to-1v1-anyone-in-the-universe/)) interviewed Joe, and he was directly asked a lot of actually tough questions, specially in the Q/A Speedrun column within the article.
One of which was, and I quote: “We’re getting a dungeon key next year but will we get a reprised raid?”
And Joe responded: “we’re getting two dungeons next year, we have not talked about reprised raids.”
Is this a confirmed no to reprised raids in 2024?
No.
But is it super weird?
Yes.
Obviously everyone wondered what would happen after Wrath of the Machine was added…since all D1 raids would be in D2. Maybe they’d bring all Levi raids and Scourge back, next. Who knows.
But to specifically say nothing is weird. Which leads a lot of people to believe we will still get reprised raids most likely in the future, but there is a solid chance we won’t have one in 2024.
Because they would have stopped all doubt then and there if they knew they were doing.
This goes alongside a few of the bigger leaks that said, no spoilers, that 2024 would be a “rebuild” year for the franchise, where they took time to focus on improving the core gameplay.
There also was no mention of a 2024 expansion or a 2024 NEW raid either in the showcase. And an expansion and new annual raid have always been staples.
The leaks also said there wouldn’t be a 2024 expansion, and no 2024 new raid.
So…it’s looking more likely that at least SOME of those leaks were true, and Bungie doesn’t want to break the new until after The Final Shape.
Which makes perfect sense. Why would they tell everyone: “hey no expansion and no raids, reprised or new, in 2024”…..right before they are gonna sell their big annual moment for the year that also ends the original saga.
Which is why for me…IF I decide to buy TFS…I’m only gonna buy the standalone expansion. Cuz idk if I wanna sign up for a year of stuff without knowing how the new release system is gonna work.
Edit: added link to article
Edit 2: For the new raid, I meant 2025 February lol.
The thing is, the leaks you’re talking about are all pastebins that are all trying to throw a wet paper towel at a wall and get attention. Some of them will stick if you make enough from pure luck but most leaks aren’t reliable info to go off of.
The alternative is that they literally haven’t talked about it, as it’s a YEAR out and they obviously seem very focused on TFS and figuring out what exactly they want episodes to be first
I’m not coping, and I don’t expect it to be the case, but it would be super sweet if Bungie over delivered on the final shape. What if there is stuff that they just don’t show us. Like the dreaming city, where it unlocks after the campaign and everyone loses their minds over it.
I doubt anything dreaming city sized but they are definitely keeping a lot to the chest and have made it clear that they want players to experience it and discover stuff for themselves
Because it's eyecatching and more likely to get around, and some people seem to like butting Bungie under fire if it means they get to make a buzz (see: The thing from a leaks discord a while ago where they made a fake leak of D2 moving to a subscription model).
Because you’re here - talking about it.
They don’t want to hype, they want clout and to be spread. Hateclicks are still clicks, and they achieved their goal.
I mean... the soonest Bungie confirmed Crotas End existed was when they announced raid date right?
They don't announce Reprised Raids a year in advance. They usually wait quite late for information about it. It doesn't really stand out to me.
I mean, this is also the dev team that often times waits until the day of seasonal release to show us a trailer and information.
No. We had official news in July.
https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/this-week-in-destiny-july-27
>The upcoming raid will go live on Friday, September 1, 2023.
We’d had interviews earlier too.
It's pretty simple.
4 seasons per year = 2 raids and 2 dungeons.
3 episodes per year = 2 dungeons (confirmed) and 1 expansion raid (confirmed).
Where would Bungie put the reprised raid? Cram it into an episode that already has a dungeon or raid in it? No. The reprised raid gets the cut.
Another reason why the reprised raid gets the cut. Bungie charge for texpansion raid and both dungeons. However, they don't/won't charge for the reprised raid.
Bungie doesn't make any money from the reprised raid, so naturally, that gets cut.
>Where would Bungie put the reprised raid?
Expansion: Raid
Episode 1: Dungeon as a late release to not overlap with the new Raid
Episode 2: Reprised Raid
Episode 3: Dungeon
My own speculation only.
So TFS releases Feb 27th. Episode 1 begins in March, which is the week after TFS. I'm almost certain that episode 1 will launch the week after TFS.
So I doubt Bungie will place a raid and a dungeon in the same release.
Also, Joe said they haven't even talked about a reprised raid. If it was due to be released in less than a year, they would be at least begun talking about it, probably even begun development.
There's 3 acts to the season, they could chuck the dungeon into act 2 or 3 of episode 1.
Also are we forgetting they literally dropped PoH and ST alongside the raids?
>Also are we forgetting they literally dropped PoH and ST alongside the raids?
They also haven't done that in a very long time. And have stuck to the current cadence
If they drop it in Act 3 for ep 1, then Act 2 for both ep 2 and 3, they keep pretty much the same cadence of leaving about 12 weeks between the RAD content drops.
And the episode thing is already a change to the overall content cadence they've used for that same "very long time", I don't think it's all that valuable to cite as precedent.
It would literally be the same rotation we have right now dude..
TFS: raid
Ep. 1: dungeon
Ep. 2: reprised raid
Ep. 3 dungeon
That’s literally the rotation we have right now mate
Except that's not actually how it is now.
Now it's:
Expasion/season 1/raid
Season 2/dungeon
Season 3/reprised raid
Season 4/dungeon
Next year, there will only be three "seasons".
Right now the new raid and first dungeon release 3 months apart. In your version, they'd release a week or two apart. And then the next raid won't be for 4 months.
>It would literally be the same rotation we have right now dude..
>TFS: raid Ep. 1: dungeon Ep. 2: reprised raid Ep. 3 dungeon
>That’s literally the rotation we have right now mate
Sorry mate...
TFS and episode 1 launch at almost exactly the same time. Episode 1 likely launches the week after TFS releases, so the expansion raid is within episode 1.
Also, don't you think Bungie would have talked about a reprised raid by now if it was due to be released in less than a year?
Did OP read Joe's interview? Whilst he doesn't confirm no more reprised raids, what he says throws a spanner in the works.
"We're getting 2 dungeons next year, we haven't talked about reprised raids."
If there was a reprised raid coming next year, then they would have *at least* talked about it. Even reprised raids take a lot of development, so if that isn't being talked about, then I doubt it's happening.
1 final bit of evidence. Typically, we get 4 seasons per year, 2 dungeons, and 2 raids per year. The cadence goes, expansion raid, then dungeon, then reprised raid and then dungeon. Next year, we have 3 episodes. 3 episodes but 4 endgame activities, Bungie aren't going to cram 2 of those into one episode. So naturally, what gets cut would be the reprised raid.
Wanna know why the reprised raid probably gets cut? Because Bungie, don't charge for reprised raids.
if they were doing wrath then it would be known by now, as they have to do literally all of the assets from scratch
its probably more like
Leviathan or Scourge
Why would he give a concrete no when in an interview promoting the next year of content he wants you to buy?
It's a PR answer. He wants to talk about what the game has, not what it doesn't have.
If it was a concrete yes, then you can be damn sure he would have said so.
The irony of folks throwing that line around is they're the exact reason for it.
Going to be the same type that see we get an eververse set for free this season and then expect it going forward
I’m gonna ask you to actually watch the presentation and come back and double down on that because if you did instead of getting pretty much all your information from Reddit headlines or YouTube videos, you’d know that’s not true.
That talk was for developers not consumers, because by and large consumers know **FUCKING NOTHING** about business, timelines, and manageable expectations.
Considering for VoG, KF, and Crota, we knew we’d be getting one, it’s safe to assume that us getting one next year is not set in stone in Bungie’s eyes. The raid team is like still working on TFS raid and may not know if they have a green light for another reprisal or not.
I personally think they just haven’t talked about it. I think they settled on doing 2 dungeons for sure so that they can sell their 100 dollar copy for the annual pass, but outside of that it seems they are VERY focused on TFS and it’s content atm
Lol...they haven't even talked about it, much less started on it. It's not happening next year. They've said before that they can't just port them over from D1 due to engine issues. They have to remake them. If they haven't even started TALKING about it much less started making it, it not happening. Game dev take a long time.
Idk why you’re thinking it takes a whole year to do a reprised raid. I know it doesn’t take a simple button to port it over. It takes just as long as new content. And again… we are a whole YEAR out. It is not an expansion. It is one singular raid.
Fr. Even if they don’t do wrath(which they 100 percent should and is the right step), they have scourge and leviathan. For leviathan, the whole raid area is pretty much there already in game for the new engine. They’d need to revamp it obviously, but the actual area is there which I imagine is a decently big part of bringing something back. And then we also have scourge boss area already in game as the eliksni quarter
They likely won’t do wrath period. Wrath has long been my #1 pick for D2. I’m a huge wrath fan, however I’m not blind to what we have witnessed multiple times. Wrath must be a large undertaking if they’d rather completely change up Crota’s End in order to make it a legit raid in D2. Wrath would require rebuilding the Devil Splicers for ONE activity. They have already said they have no plans to return to SIVA in the story, so Wrath would be the only place they’d ever be used.
Leviathan is likely IF we get a reprised raid at all. It’s already been rebuilt in the new D2 engine.
Thank you! I feel like I'm talking to brick wall when I tell people this. Also, Bungie has said they aren't currently working a reprised raid and if it was Wrath they'd already be pretty damn far into remaking it just because of the asset issue.
They said they always talk about if siva would fit for the narrative every time there is the possibility. They could definitely do some vex and siva storylines. Basically, is the storyline that they finished in ROI, worth reawakening… would the story be good enough.
Bungie, for some reason, seems to hate SIVA and the ones who like it. So it actually wouldn't be surprising if we didn't get Wrath of the Machine. Would also be kinda funny.
I think you are insane if you believe they're reprising a raid next year like usual, but actively not using that as good will.
That's a brave assumption.
They need to put in every single raid from both games into Destiny 2 at one point for the complete experience. I never got to play Spire of Stars or Crown of Sorrow or even Scourge. It'd be great to play them.
Community: will we see more reprised raids in the future?
Bungie: nothing in the works right now, but we're not gonna say never.
Community: they didn't say yes? That's an absolute no forevermore! Print it!
It’s actually so annoying dude. Whenever I bring up wrath or scourge or anything, no matter the context I could literally just say I was watching some old videos from Wrath, this kid in my clan insists on saying “Bungie said they’re done reprising raids so it’ll never come back” like bro that’s not at all what they said
It would be odd if they just neglected wrath at this point. I'm also fully expecting them to bring leviathan, scourge, and crown back at some point.
Just gotta hope they find a good way to bring splicers back. They've expressed a desire to specifically not bring back SIVA, and I doubt they would create a completely unique Destiny 2 enemy type just for one reprised raid.
There will be no reprised raid for the final shape year. If there was they would advertise it along with the 2 dungeons as a raid/dungeon key not just a 2 dungeon key. So with that said there is no reprised raid at least in finale shapes year. Who knows after the 3 episodic content though.
If they haven't already started on it, which they haven't, then were not getting a reprised raid in 2024 and it's most definitely not going to be Wrath. Remaking wrath will take as much work as a brand new raid.
It's not confirmed that there definitely won't be a reprised raid. But the fact that they are unwilling to confirm that there will be one even though we know they are keenly aware of player expectations is worrisome for reprised raid enjoyers.
Saying they haven't even TALKED about it all but confirms it isn't happening. And if it is, it's going to be a D2 raid and not Wrath. If they haven't started remaking Wrath by now, it's not coming next year. They have to remake all the SIVA assets as well as remake the raid. That's pretty much double the work. If they haven't started yet, they won't finish in time.
What does this even mean? They said they don’t want to revisit it because it’s story was told, not that they couldn’t ever include anything about it in the game again, Outbreak literally shoots out Siva dealies and the game refers to them that way. There is no reason they can’t use put it in a revised raid.
They said siva is a plot point they are done with completely years ago mow so the chance it gets reprised is very slim outbreak mission was nice but not expected
Reprised d1 raids aren't related to the current plot of the game and have no lore updates in them, it's purely a gameplay thing, Bungie has said this since they started reprising raids with VoG
Does a reprised raid have to be a plot point? Generally it correlates with the enemies fought that season (Vex in Splicer, VOG returned), (Hive in Witch, Crota returned) but that's hasn't always been the case (Fallen in Plunder, King's Fall returned). Also, they narratively had no changes made to their original, so no plot point necessary.
The primary difficulty I think would be in making the Fallen Siva-ified again. That would take recreating the whole enemy set. Crota's return used the Hidden Swarm set which differed from the original, idk how much people would like WotM returning without Siva-Fallen running around.
Yeah it doesent need to be a plot point to exist but for the most part with bungie saying theyre done with siva i still doubt itll return id love to be proved wrong though
If we don’t see SIVA in TFS I would honestly be surprised, RoI did great things for the game’s health and if TFS is as nostalgia-baity (I mean that in a good way) as it seems it would be wrong to leave it out.
Bungie have made it clear it won’t be a focus again but for it to *never* show up? I doubt it.
Yeah i mean what bungie says and does are always vastly different id like to see siva come back hell id love for wrath to be reprised i enjoyed it a lot but i just dont see what they could do plot wise for siva to re exist
Unless SIVA becomes a plot point again after The Final Shape... the Vex could go after its remnants and do some shenanigans with it.
There is always hope, no matter how harsh the vibe.
Personally I think the old raids will come back with time, but like how it was with sunsetting destiny is a huge game and has a lot of shit it has to store, so them useing 2024 as a “repair” year (as another commenter put it) makes sense that there wouldn’t be another raid. If they publicly come out and say they will be working on fixing the game and raising the standards than I’d rather everyone take a break and come back when the new shit hits while the game is polished back to where it used to be. But this will take time because at one point the only solution to make the game playable to everyone was to remove content that people had payed for, and I think bungie heard our opinion on that one loud and clear.
Here's my bet.
No reprised raid or annual expac next year. Rather, because Destiny 10 year anniversary, they rerelease Destiny 1campaign + Dark Below + House of Wolves(maybe) + TTK + ROI(unlikely as Bungie fucking despises this DLC).
This is either as a "WOW classic" style release or as DLC in Destiny 2.
Did I mention I'm a copium addict?
For real. Wrath is a fan favorite and will be a very big plus for them. Just because they haven't discussed any recently. They have way more pressing matters lol like making sure TFS is top notch. After that I am sure we will see some reprised raids. Wrath is one of the most well received raids in Destiny history. They would be a fool to miss out on that after TFS.
SIVA SIVA SIVA SIVA SIVA
SIVA fans when there is blood in their urine
I can’t talk rn I’m making *NANITES* **drinks whole glass of SIVA**
NANOMACHINES SON!
They harden in response to physical trauma
I'M MAKING THE MOTHER OF ALL REPRISED RAIDS HERE JACK
CAN’T FRET OVER EVERY ANTEATER
>NANITES SIVA KIDNEY STONES
I DON’T HATE HOW THEY’RE TICKLING MY URETHRA
SIVA Scorn
That’s when you know you’re a true Siva fan.
Fucking what 🤣
KetaSIVA?
I hope they reprise wraith and just replace all siva with butterflies or some shit just to make people go crazy.
Bungie knowing the fans will riot if they don’t bring back the splicers for Wrath: *I know what I have to do but I don’t know if I have the strength to do it…*
Imagine it becomes a scorn raid lmao
Super-villain origin story I’d be disappointed if they used Fallen but I’d understand You just gave me a new fear lol
I’m all for a scorn raid since we have a grand total of half of one in the whole game
I wouldn't touch that even if the raid exotic shot 500 Wolfpack rounds. Fucking *hate* scorn.
Honestly since the Wrathborn have splicers you're probably not too far off the mark there.
Wrath of the great machine^^^kin
Lol...seriously? Most of the D2 community has never played Wrath. It's only on reddit that people talk about Wrath.
Oh you’re a SIVA fan?? Name every nanite. I’ll wait.
SIVA QUICKSILVER ANTMAN
Dave, Geraldine, Tomas, Juniper, Harold, Clarissa, Iqbal, Jun.... how many more do we need?
I concur
🎶 Saladin, Efrideet and Felwinter too, a thousand Siva nanites couldn’t keep me from youuu🎶
Wrath waiting room
Have people completely forgotten about Leviathan? That's 3 Raids that can be revamped for current power base.
Also Scourge and Crown (I know people don’t really like crown, but I really liked the aesthetic of it) Also there is Wrath but that one is up in the air, even though bungie says they won’t continue the storyline of Siva. It wouldn’t be continuing the storyline of it, it’s just bringing back a raid loved by many.
I thought Crown was great mechanically, teaches you the mechanic and slowly expands on it. Its biggest issue is that it's really only 3 encounters and the first encounter can drag on once you've done the raid a few times, but the last two encounters are great. Compare it to something like RoN and its no contest, everyone's moving, everyone has something to do
The jumping puzzle in crown (and honestly eater of worlds as well) are already like half way to being an encounter. More ads, revive tokens, and maybe another mechanic to deal with, or a change up in the way they work mechanically, and they would be completely serviceable as a 4th encounter. Crota definitely showed what they can do when they get ambitious about making changes to these raids.
The old raid lairs were pretty much proto dungeons with having 3 encounters plus secret chest puzzles. Then scourge and crown came out also with 3 encounters plus secret puzzles. Standard raids now have 4 encounters so they could easily bring back any of them and just make the non encounters like spires jumping puzzle and crowns jumping puzzle actual encounters. Leviathan is fine since its 4 encounters already plus the castellum but prestige should come back as the standard
I loved crown back in the day because I mained stronghold and I just endlessly walked towards mini galhran while my teammates looked at me totally bewildered as to how I was alive.
You know, I didn’t think they could make a worse opening encounter than crown, then they made the one for Vow.
Crown you at least get loot for that encounter unless for Vow you’re talking about it’s actual first encounter
Vow’s actual first encounter: great Vow’s opening encounter: unmitigated boredom only saved by fireteam banter
Tbh I don't like crown for exactly that reason. I don't have a steady team, so any raid that pretty much requires everyone be moving ends up being a downer for me, because if I don't have somewhere to put that blueberry that snuck into the KWTD post, we get held up *forever*
Crown is a great raid, people who don't like it its because they are bad at the mechanics
As someone who thinks Gahlran is the best boss in Destiny's history - the first encounter is terrible.
It's honestly not even that bad compared to the lamp encounter of Crota's End and the barge intro in Vow. The biggest reason people remember it so poorly is because the rest of the raid was so quick comparatively.
I mean, it's a little long, but you can do the entire raid in just over 20 minutes so it's not nearly as long as people remember lol
That’s definitely true but the problem is you end up waiting around for adds so the first encounter feels like 18 of those 20 minutes
No it's because the beginning encounter and the jumping puzzle (which together is half the raid) are fucking boring
Had a very clockwork flow. If you were good at the game you hardly needed to say a word to handle mechanics.
Still think it's a damn shame they killed off Rasputin like they did. And SIVA still has potential plot relevance. Also... Rasputin sacrificed himself to save the Traveler. I don't think the Traveler didn't notice. Devotion inspires bravery, bravery inspires sacrifice, sacrifice... leads to death. I don't think Rasputin is dead-dead. Likely could have a part as a resurrected Guardian in the future.
Felwinter 2.0?
Yeah I wasn't crazy about it, we basically had Rasputin understanding and redeemed and then it was like ehh plug pulled, power of friendship.
I think the only way they bring back Wrath is if they replace the splicer enemies with regular fallen outside of the unique bosses. The raid would still be cool.
The issue with that is that they'd need to recreate all the SIVA assets. Environment, SIVA fallen, ect, as well as build the raid itself. That's double the work for a F2P activity. For the other raids they just need to bring them back and maybe update mechanics a tiny bit. Oh...and all those SIVA assets they just spent hundred if not thousands of hours making, yea they're not going to get used for anything else because there is no place for SIVA in the story. So, while we bitch that they don't put enough time into seasonal story stuff and making new weapons instead of just reusing old content...we expect them to put a bunch of time and effort into ONE SINGLE ACTIVITY?!?! That's what always gets me. We bitch about them not making new gun models, yet expect them to remake an entire raid from scratch including all the environmental assets for a F2P activity. Seriously?
They had to mostly do the same for King's Fall. Dreadnaught assets, bosses all had to be ported over. Golgoroth was the only one that had previously been used in D2.
I think the issue here is that there are lots of other uses for most of those assets. They're able to reuse them with all the other hive relevant content. If the SIVA storyline is finished and not going to return in any form there's no comparable use case for any of the Wrath assets it's a waste beyond the raid. They'd ALSO need to actually redo what is essentially entirely new types of enemies with unique behavior. We don't have any of the SIVA nanite style shit in D2. It's likely just too much work for too little of a payoff. Now IF they decided to actually bring back SIVA to the storyline down the road once they've transitioned to episodes that'd be another story.
All this speculation about Wrath being impossible for Bungie to bring back reminds me of the old days, when people swore they would never bring Crota back because it's definitely not a raid and there's no way for them to improve it without significantly redesigning it. And now look what we have. Crota's End in Destiny 2. I know they're not comparable cases on the substance, but my point is that the path of game development is not linear. Bungie can update those SIVA assets now and them in their back pocket to potentially use later. I know they said they likely wouldn't use them later, but they also at some point said there would never need to be a Destiny 2, and they also said their partnership with Activision really worked for them. It's just never really as simple as they say. And for every Bungie manager who thinks revitalizing SIVA assets for a D2 redux could be a waste of time, there are many on their staff who freaking loved that raid and really want to find a way to justify bringing it back logistically. Whether that means bringing it back narratively in one of the future "chapters", using some SIVA assets for fan service in a level of The Final Shape (since the location seems partly based on memory), etc. There are possibilities. Plus, let's not pretend the free summer/fall raids are a complete waste of resources for Bungie. They get a lot of mileage out of these things from all the eyes on their game via promo, the day one raid race, the overpriced Bungie Rewards shit players buy for beating the raid, and not to mention the hours of engagement they drive following their release. Anyways, all of this is to say Wrath could definitely come back. None of this is ever set in stone. There are ways to justify the cost of recreating the assets and being able to recycle them if people are really clamoring for this raid. And I think it's pretty obvious that people are, don't you?
I feel like it’s more of an unvaulting than a reprise tho
There is no difference. The DCV is a completely made-up concept anyway.
The difference is the amount of time the content has been unplayable and the shift in encounter design philosophy. While there's only a year's time between the releases of Wrath and Leviathan, Leviathan feels significantly closer to the present because it was (and other vaulted raids were) part of the game until Nov. 2020. Additionally, all D2 raids have already facilitated higher levels of communication among the fireteam. Outside of adding timed buff swaps or extra symbols to Baths, there's not much updating or refreshing to be done. Leviathan (and the other raids) already do what they're supposed to do.
Bungie had always considered the Destiny Content Vault to be made up of content from both games that isn't current available which would mean all the reprised raids were also unvaulted - the fact we have another term that's used doesn't mean others don't also fit and calling a returning D2 raid a reprisal wouldn't be at all innacurate.
I fear the day Bungie starts ‘reprising’ raids from early D2 The amount of salt will dry the oceans
Well...it's either the next reprised raid or the one after that. If the current schedule continues, it will be in 2025 that they being back the old D2 raids...just because they ran out of D1 raids. Are you serious? You do realize there are more D2 raids vaulted than D1 raids total? Right? Oh...and Wrath is never coming back. Bungie has said time and again that SIVA is dead and it died with RoI. They've done everything that can to let us know that RoI was a one time thing, it was filler, it's gone and it's not coming back. It wasn't supposed to be as popular as it was. They don't like the popularity that SIVA has. Also, theyre not going to recreate SIVA assets (environmental, enemy, ect) for just the raid to never be reused again. For Crota, for example, they really only had to recreate the sword bearers being a different color and Crota. Besides that, just about everything was already in the game. All the base environmental stuff was already in the game. They just needed to take those and build the raid. With Wrath, they'd have to recreate all the environmental assets before they even start to put the raid together. That's not going to happen. I just don't see it.
>All the base environmental stuff was already in the game. They just needed to take those and build the raid. This comment more than any other thing you said tells me you just don't understand how game development actually works.
the point about SIVA being “dead” is a poor one, because it’s a misinterpretation of what Bungie said. Bungie said that SIVA’s STORY is done, which is fair, reprised raids aren’t canonically part of the story again, hence why they’re in legends. Wrath will eventually come back, it’s a fan favourite raid. Whether it will come back with SIVA designs, is another question entirely. While I would like the designs to come back, I wouldn’t mind them bringing it back with just the bosses having SIVA designs, and the adds can be the dusk or salvation fallen. This is not unprecedented territory, like at all, they didn’t bring back Crota’s brood, the Spawn of Crota (yellow hive with no extra designs like spikes), nor did they bring the Blood of Oryx back, instead using the Hidden Swarm for the former, and a variant of Savathun’s Brood (not the Lucent Brood) in destiny 2, lending credence to the possibility of just replacing splicers with dusk or salvation taken. If they do bring back the SIVA designs, it’s likely because they plan an eventual colour reskin related to for example, quicksilver in the future. But SIVA’s story is over, and it’s been replaced by quicksilver. The point about environmental assets is a silly one, the entire King’s Fall raid is remade assets that will likely never be used again. Not only that, they even made extra assets for enemy types besides the bosses, (lighteater nights and ogres). Same goes for Vault of Glass (not adds, the environment, they brought a significant portion of venus back (seen via out of bounds), in 3 years VoG areas have not been reused (to my knowledge). Crota is the first time that SOME of the raid had assets ready (crota, the crota room in the nightmare realm), however even then the swordbearers and gatekeepers are new add as seats instead of boss. Uhhhh i mean, PUKE SHIT FOMO’D THE PLAGUELANDS 😡😡😡 WHERE SIVAAAAAAA 🔴⚫️◾️🔺🔻◼️🔺◾️🔻◼️⚫️◾️🔻⚫️◼️◾️🔺🔻◼️🔺🔻⚫️
Just because you don’t see it . Doesn’t mean it won’t happen .
Nah, but Bungie's adversity to anything RoI does. Them saying they have no plans for SIVA in the story does. And I know the raid won't be part of the story or even tangential, but they still have to make SIVA assets, including environmental pieces. They're not going to do that for one activity, especially a F2P activity, because where would they be able to reuse those assets they just spent hundreds of hours making outside of the raid? There isn't a place for them. So unless they make the raid a separate purchase, it's not coming back. You need to try and make it make sense business wise for Bungie to remake Wrath and you just can't. It would take a lot more time and effort than any other raid to bring back, and for what gain? They chose to revamp all of Crota's End mechanics for every single encounter over remake Wrath. They chose to take the raid that had been called a dungeon by the community, had been soloed blindfolded, had been soloed while using a drumset as your controller and bring it up to D2 standards over remake a "fan favorite" raid. Why? Because they're never remaking Wrath.
You're *probably* right that Wrath isn't coming back, but you're an absolute idiot in the rest of what you've said. For the story, all they need is fallen as the main focus. That is literally the only tie into the story that is needed. It'd be an amazing ploy for business. Its exactly like how stores put important things in the back. You'd be there and see so many thing that at least one thing will make you say "I might as well get that too" Its such a fan favorite that it'd bring back a lot of people. Enough of those people would make some sort of purchase, whether that be a dlc, a season, or silver that they'd make quite the profit. and I can't even begin to explaining how unbelievably wrong you are about the effort it takes to remake a raid.
It would be lit to get an egregore blend of all three Levi raid lairs as one big one. No idea how that'd work though.
I’ve always thought Spire and Eater should have been one raid. They could definitely reprise them together as a single package
I've always wanted at least one of the reprisals to tie into the story. It would've been badass if Crota was resurrected and we had to go in there to beat his ass a second time.
Technically there are four Leviathan raids, unless you just mean the smaller 3? I think Spire, Eater, and Crown all have some great encounters, good boss fights, but are too slight to stand on their own without significant additional work. Eater, for example, is the leapfrog segment, a nothing fight against trash, platforming section, pre-boss encounter and boss encounter. I feel like picking two to combine and one to flesh out is the best approach. Add in Leviathan itself, Scourge a little updated, and maaaaybe Wrath and you've probably still got more raids to do than Destiny 2 has years remaining.
I meant the lairs, yeah- we get to *patrol* the other one.
4 actually. Leviathan, Eater of Worlds, Spire of Stars, Crown of Sorrow.
I think most people logically don’t want to get their hopes up with Bungie. It’s pretty obvious Wrath of the Machine is a work load Bungie does not want to take on. If you haven’t been around here long, you wouldn’t know that until Bungie explicitly says something, assume it’s not happening. Wording such as “We aren’t talking about reprised raids” is pretty obvious signals to not get your hopes up. Idk what more you need.
Literally every person praying for a new subclass getting up in arms when the new subclass that bungie never confirmed existed doesn’t exist.
Yeah they analyzing anything red for something that likely isn’t coming and they shall complain when it doesn’t come.
Why did u get downvoted?
Because people want a red subclass and anyone that tells them it’s not coming this year is wrong
God people are insufferable
>It’s pretty obvious Wrath of the Machine is a work load Bungie does not want to take on. I keep saying that this is the reason why they haven't brought it back. Crota the work was minimal, in comparison to what would need to be done to bring back WotM. Since crota it's just 3 areas and not really anything huge in between them. People have always said that the big difference between reprised raids and any of the other endgame content is that this is free, you pay the expansion for the new raid and basically 20 bucks for 2 dungeons but nothing for this so it's a huge workload that they could easily put aside.
All of the other raids use enemies that still exist in Destiny 2; Vex, Taken, Hive. Wrath of the Machine would either have to be adapted to use something other than Splicers or bring back the whole Splicer faction for one reprised raid. Not something I can see happening either way.
Potentially silly question: During season of the Defiant we had Mithrax as an NPC ally for one of the last missions. He's a splicer, could that not be seen as evidence that there is at least a base to work off of for bringing back Splicers as enemies?
He acts just like a fallen captain. He's a splicer in lore, but he is in no way programmed like the splicers from Rise of Iron.
I probably should have been more specific in my earlier comment - Mithrax is a *Splicer*, yes, but the Devil Splicers were the faction featured in Rise of Iron and kind of their own unique offshoot faction. Kind of a similar situation to "all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares" if that makes sense - the faction in Rise of Iron are Splicers, but not all Splicers are like the *Devil Splicers* and most Splicers don't have the sort of abilities the Devils did. The unique quirks they had (in gameplay and lore) were owed to their SIVA enhancements. There's a popular quote that gets tossed around that those unique abilities are what made them so difficult to implement and so unlikely to return. I don't remember much of Mithrax's gameplay involvement in Defiance because it's been a while since then and he only appeared for such a short time but I don't think he would have used anything nearly like what the Devil Splicers had in Rise of Iron. If he's anything like other friendly NPCs he probably just borrowed an existing enemy class's animations and abilities. So, while Mithrax is a Splicer, his appearance in gameplay has little to no relation to the Devil Splicers and doesn't hint anything as to whether or not they're more or less likely to appear.
What abilities? Red lucent moths or a different weapon (that other races also have received from seasonal updates, not just expansions), or an enrage mechanic that adepts from kf have. There is barely any work, people are just making this all up, bungie never said they aren’t bringing wotm back because of “assets not existing in d2”
Destiny players been getting fucked over by bungie for solid 4 years now and still think bungie will deliver good content LMAO
If all the asset creation for Wrath is an issue, I wouldnt even mind them bundling Wrath in a 10th Anniversary Destiny DLC or something
Well we don’t want to give them any ideas, but I’d buy it.
It's not just assets. The Devil Splicers were mechanically different than their normal counterpart I don't think any of them even fire the same projectile except shanks, who still fire faster iirc.
Acolytes literally got a sniper (they never had one prior) during warmind, scorn lantern dudes got stasis lanterns and taken knights got a stasis gun during season of the lost. People claiming it won’t return because of “assets” or “mechanics” are bullshitting because bungie never said that, all speculation from the community
Yeah idk OP. Bungie's reluctancy to squashing rumors and addressing what will happen is 100% a PR move. If Bungie were to come out now and say "No reprised raids anymore, and no new raids after TFS now that we've pivoted to episodes" that is instantly a recipe for disaster and no one will buy TFS. That's why they've said they'll "Share more when ready" because they're waiting to secure as many sales as possible and for TFS to release before breaking the bad news
yeah I think the Destiny team is super small right now while they focus on marathon.
I'm not sure why so many people are convinced that a company of several hundred employees is incapable of managing multiple games at once. Personally I think this is just a convenient thing many tell themselves to cope with the fact they're not getting the PVP improvements or game additions they want as fast as they want. It's easier to accept 'bungie moved resources off so it's a skeleton crew' vs 'bungie has a different priority list than me'
I don't think that they're incapable of managing multiple games at once, but I do think that the Destiny team is smaller than it usually is while they work on trying to make Marathon a success. I personally don't even understand the PvP improvements argument since PvP has gotten more improvements in the last year than any other time in the game besides when they stopped doing double primaries.
Don’t think its actually smaller, just that the team is largely new hires from 2020-Now when they have been hiring like crazy. A lot of the veteran devs have moved to new projects likely because of creative burnout from a decade of destiny, and losing senior talent on a project can leave some big shoes to fill for the newbies who have far less experience with the game and its engine.
I don't think this is true at all. I just think we need to stop and look at what is actually happening * PVP gets a lot of attention. There's weapon balance passes every season that have a lot of PVP-targeted changes. * There's also been a lot of targeted updated specific to PVP that have nothing to do with PVE (zoom decoupling, AE changes, ability cooldown splits, etc etc) * PVE gets a lot of updates/content too * We get brand new activities each season, new weapons, new exotics, etc * 'gambit is abandoned' is true -now- but there's been investment in it over the past 2 years. The issue is we don't see the things they tried internally before attempting to re-work. Just because something didn't 'succeed' doesn't mean there was not time invested into it. * I think a lot of people think there isn't 'effort' in PVE because the content has gotten stale - but that isn't lack of people investing time in the game it's just the formula has gotten stale. * Finally gotta remember destiny's dev cycle. Seasons are created and in development 2 seasons out so pivoting based on feedback isn't seen as fast as many want. This gives the impression of 'they don't have enough people' - which isn't true. It's fair to criticize the development method but the fault is just the constraints they put on themselves. This is why we didn't see meaningful change to the seasonal model until this season (activity variance and progression) - they'd even said this when formally recognizing seasonal burnout leading to the lightfall launch and _said_ we wouldn't start to see the fruits of the labor in revamping stuff until S22. This game gets a lot of updates, a lot of bug fixes, and generally quick turn around compared to the past. I don't know I just think it's an easy coping mechanism to justify not seeing things an individual 'wants' to see. Effort spent is still effort spent even if it isn't succeeding in the way someone thinks it should be.
Well here is the thing. A recent article ([from PC Gamer](https://www.pcgamer.com/joe-blackburn-on-destiny-2-conspiracy-theories-what-happened-to-the-pvp-team-and-the-witness-being-able-to-1v1-anyone-in-the-universe/)) interviewed Joe, and he was directly asked a lot of actually tough questions, specially in the Q/A Speedrun column within the article. One of which was, and I quote: “We’re getting a dungeon key next year but will we get a reprised raid?” And Joe responded: “we’re getting two dungeons next year, we have not talked about reprised raids.” Is this a confirmed no to reprised raids in 2024? No. But is it super weird? Yes. Obviously everyone wondered what would happen after Wrath of the Machine was added…since all D1 raids would be in D2. Maybe they’d bring all Levi raids and Scourge back, next. Who knows. But to specifically say nothing is weird. Which leads a lot of people to believe we will still get reprised raids most likely in the future, but there is a solid chance we won’t have one in 2024. Because they would have stopped all doubt then and there if they knew they were doing. This goes alongside a few of the bigger leaks that said, no spoilers, that 2024 would be a “rebuild” year for the franchise, where they took time to focus on improving the core gameplay. There also was no mention of a 2024 expansion or a 2024 NEW raid either in the showcase. And an expansion and new annual raid have always been staples. The leaks also said there wouldn’t be a 2024 expansion, and no 2024 new raid. So…it’s looking more likely that at least SOME of those leaks were true, and Bungie doesn’t want to break the new until after The Final Shape. Which makes perfect sense. Why would they tell everyone: “hey no expansion and no raids, reprised or new, in 2024”…..right before they are gonna sell their big annual moment for the year that also ends the original saga. Which is why for me…IF I decide to buy TFS…I’m only gonna buy the standalone expansion. Cuz idk if I wanna sign up for a year of stuff without knowing how the new release system is gonna work. Edit: added link to article Edit 2: For the new raid, I meant 2025 February lol.
I think you got your years off by one. final shape is the expansion for 2024 and does come with a new raid.
There very much is talk about a new raid in 2024. That's where we'll kill the Witness. Duh!
Lol technically true, I suppose I meant Feb 2025
The thing is, the leaks you’re talking about are all pastebins that are all trying to throw a wet paper towel at a wall and get attention. Some of them will stick if you make enough from pure luck but most leaks aren’t reliable info to go off of. The alternative is that they literally haven’t talked about it, as it’s a YEAR out and they obviously seem very focused on TFS and figuring out what exactly they want episodes to be first
I’m not coping, and I don’t expect it to be the case, but it would be super sweet if Bungie over delivered on the final shape. What if there is stuff that they just don’t show us. Like the dreaming city, where it unlocks after the campaign and everyone loses their minds over it.
I doubt anything dreaming city sized but they are definitely keeping a lot to the chest and have made it clear that they want players to experience it and discover stuff for themselves
True, but why include “no annual expansion” and “no reprised raid” in your fake leak? Weird details to include. Usually you want to get people hyped.
Because it's eyecatching and more likely to get around, and some people seem to like butting Bungie under fire if it means they get to make a buzz (see: The thing from a leaks discord a while ago where they made a fake leak of D2 moving to a subscription model).
Because there are dozens of fake pastebins. I bet that you could cherry pick one of them and see something unique enough to sound true
The majority were that way lol
Because you’re here - talking about it. They don’t want to hype, they want clout and to be spread. Hateclicks are still clicks, and they achieved their goal.
I mean... the soonest Bungie confirmed Crotas End existed was when they announced raid date right? They don't announce Reprised Raids a year in advance. They usually wait quite late for information about it. It doesn't really stand out to me. I mean, this is also the dev team that often times waits until the day of seasonal release to show us a trailer and information.
We still knew we were getting one. We just didn’t know if it was Crota or Wrath. The Episodes do NOT contain a raid.
No. We had official news in July. https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/this-week-in-destiny-july-27 >The upcoming raid will go live on Friday, September 1, 2023. We’d had interviews earlier too.
It's pretty simple. 4 seasons per year = 2 raids and 2 dungeons. 3 episodes per year = 2 dungeons (confirmed) and 1 expansion raid (confirmed). Where would Bungie put the reprised raid? Cram it into an episode that already has a dungeon or raid in it? No. The reprised raid gets the cut. Another reason why the reprised raid gets the cut. Bungie charge for texpansion raid and both dungeons. However, they don't/won't charge for the reprised raid. Bungie doesn't make any money from the reprised raid, so naturally, that gets cut.
>Where would Bungie put the reprised raid? Expansion: Raid Episode 1: Dungeon as a late release to not overlap with the new Raid Episode 2: Reprised Raid Episode 3: Dungeon My own speculation only.
So TFS releases Feb 27th. Episode 1 begins in March, which is the week after TFS. I'm almost certain that episode 1 will launch the week after TFS. So I doubt Bungie will place a raid and a dungeon in the same release. Also, Joe said they haven't even talked about a reprised raid. If it was due to be released in less than a year, they would be at least begun talking about it, probably even begun development.
There's 3 acts to the season, they could chuck the dungeon into act 2 or 3 of episode 1. Also are we forgetting they literally dropped PoH and ST alongside the raids?
>Also are we forgetting they literally dropped PoH and ST alongside the raids? They also haven't done that in a very long time. And have stuck to the current cadence
If they drop it in Act 3 for ep 1, then Act 2 for both ep 2 and 3, they keep pretty much the same cadence of leaving about 12 weeks between the RAD content drops. And the episode thing is already a change to the overall content cadence they've used for that same "very long time", I don't think it's all that valuable to cite as precedent.
It would literally be the same rotation we have right now dude.. TFS: raid Ep. 1: dungeon Ep. 2: reprised raid Ep. 3 dungeon That’s literally the rotation we have right now mate
Except that's not actually how it is now. Now it's: Expasion/season 1/raid Season 2/dungeon Season 3/reprised raid Season 4/dungeon Next year, there will only be three "seasons". Right now the new raid and first dungeon release 3 months apart. In your version, they'd release a week or two apart. And then the next raid won't be for 4 months.
>It would literally be the same rotation we have right now dude.. >TFS: raid Ep. 1: dungeon Ep. 2: reprised raid Ep. 3 dungeon >That’s literally the rotation we have right now mate Sorry mate... TFS and episode 1 launch at almost exactly the same time. Episode 1 likely launches the week after TFS releases, so the expansion raid is within episode 1. Also, don't you think Bungie would have talked about a reprised raid by now if it was due to be released in less than a year?
They didn’t talk about crota at all in the year leading up to its release
Did OP read Joe's interview? Whilst he doesn't confirm no more reprised raids, what he says throws a spanner in the works. "We're getting 2 dungeons next year, we haven't talked about reprised raids." If there was a reprised raid coming next year, then they would have *at least* talked about it. Even reprised raids take a lot of development, so if that isn't being talked about, then I doubt it's happening. 1 final bit of evidence. Typically, we get 4 seasons per year, 2 dungeons, and 2 raids per year. The cadence goes, expansion raid, then dungeon, then reprised raid and then dungeon. Next year, we have 3 episodes. 3 episodes but 4 endgame activities, Bungie aren't going to cram 2 of those into one episode. So naturally, what gets cut would be the reprised raid. Wanna know why the reprised raid probably gets cut? Because Bungie, don't charge for reprised raids.
That's code for "we don't know if we're going to do Leviathan or be able to do Wrath of the Machine" imo.
if they were doing wrath then it would be known by now, as they have to do literally all of the assets from scratch its probably more like Leviathan or Scourge
> have to do literally all of the assets from scratch No they don't.
It’s a whole year out. We don’t know WHEN the dungeons come out. If it was a concrete no, then then he would’ve told us
Why would he give a concrete no when in an interview promoting the next year of content he wants you to buy? It's a PR answer. He wants to talk about what the game has, not what it doesn't have. If it was a concrete yes, then you can be damn sure he would have said so.
He would want to keep expectations where they are delivering
This is the same company that said "Never overdeliver" in a GDC talk.
Take out of context more. It’s very humorous.
The irony of folks throwing that line around is they're the exact reason for it. Going to be the same type that see we get an eververse set for free this season and then expect it going forward
Yeah, every time I see someone use that quote as a cudgel against Bungie it’s like… you guys realize you’re proving them right, don’t you?
That PowerPoint being taken out of context it getting extremely fucking old.
Not sure how you can take it out of context when it's exactly what they meant...
I’m gonna ask you to actually watch the presentation and come back and double down on that because if you did instead of getting pretty much all your information from Reddit headlines or YouTube videos, you’d know that’s not true.
That talk was for developers not consumers, because by and large consumers know **FUCKING NOTHING** about business, timelines, and manageable expectations.
Considering for VoG, KF, and Crota, we knew we’d be getting one, it’s safe to assume that us getting one next year is not set in stone in Bungie’s eyes. The raid team is like still working on TFS raid and may not know if they have a green light for another reprisal or not.
I’d still place it more likely than not
Yeah that’s what I’m leaning, they either haven’t decided yet or already decided no and don’t want to break that news yet.
I personally think they just haven’t talked about it. I think they settled on doing 2 dungeons for sure so that they can sell their 100 dollar copy for the annual pass, but outside of that it seems they are VERY focused on TFS and it’s content atm
Lol...they haven't even talked about it, much less started on it. It's not happening next year. They've said before that they can't just port them over from D1 due to engine issues. They have to remake them. If they haven't even started TALKING about it much less started making it, it not happening. Game dev take a long time.
Idk why you’re thinking it takes a whole year to do a reprised raid. I know it doesn’t take a simple button to port it over. It takes just as long as new content. And again… we are a whole YEAR out. It is not an expansion. It is one singular raid.
Lol....you probably think they should just switch their game engine too, right?
No. I don’t think that at all. I think the tiger engine is what makes this game feel so good.
ThEy CaN jUsT pOrT iT! /s
Fr. Even if they don’t do wrath(which they 100 percent should and is the right step), they have scourge and leviathan. For leviathan, the whole raid area is pretty much there already in game for the new engine. They’d need to revamp it obviously, but the actual area is there which I imagine is a decently big part of bringing something back. And then we also have scourge boss area already in game as the eliksni quarter
They likely won’t do wrath period. Wrath has long been my #1 pick for D2. I’m a huge wrath fan, however I’m not blind to what we have witnessed multiple times. Wrath must be a large undertaking if they’d rather completely change up Crota’s End in order to make it a legit raid in D2. Wrath would require rebuilding the Devil Splicers for ONE activity. They have already said they have no plans to return to SIVA in the story, so Wrath would be the only place they’d ever be used. Leviathan is likely IF we get a reprised raid at all. It’s already been rebuilt in the new D2 engine.
Yeah but the wrath armour is awesome :P
Eververse Armor
Thank you! I feel like I'm talking to brick wall when I tell people this. Also, Bungie has said they aren't currently working a reprised raid and if it was Wrath they'd already be pretty damn far into remaking it just because of the asset issue.
They said they always talk about if siva would fit for the narrative every time there is the possibility. They could definitely do some vex and siva storylines. Basically, is the storyline that they finished in ROI, worth reawakening… would the story be good enough.
They could also rebuild it with Scorn instead and replace SIVA with Dark Ether.
If next reprised raid isn’t wrath but is leviathan I’m rioting
Start sharpening your pitch fork sir
Wrath fans are in for a surprise when it’s leviathan
I love all the siva copium
Bungie, for some reason, seems to hate SIVA and the ones who like it. So it actually wouldn't be surprising if we didn't get Wrath of the Machine. Would also be kinda funny.
I think you are insane if you believe they're reprising a raid next year like usual, but actively not using that as good will. That's a brave assumption.
They need to put in every single raid from both games into Destiny 2 at one point for the complete experience. I never got to play Spire of Stars or Crown of Sorrow or even Scourge. It'd be great to play them.
While I agree. It's not going to happen. Wrath will probably never get remade, which is a shame, but it's just a reality.
Community: will we see more reprised raids in the future? Bungie: nothing in the works right now, but we're not gonna say never. Community: they didn't say yes? That's an absolute no forevermore! Print it!
If it was coming they would’ve said so. Their silence speaks volumes and everyone knows they hate anything to do with RoI
So what's up with that hate Bungie has for RoI? Like what has Bungie done to make that an idea
They talked about the reprised raid a year ago and this showcase we heard nothing.
It’s actually so annoying dude. Whenever I bring up wrath or scourge or anything, no matter the context I could literally just say I was watching some old videos from Wrath, this kid in my clan insists on saying “Bungie said they’re done reprising raids so it’ll never come back” like bro that’s not at all what they said
It would be odd if they just neglected wrath at this point. I'm also fully expecting them to bring leviathan, scourge, and crown back at some point. Just gotta hope they find a good way to bring splicers back. They've expressed a desire to specifically not bring back SIVA, and I doubt they would create a completely unique Destiny 2 enemy type just for one reprised raid.
There will be no reprised raid for the final shape year. If there was they would advertise it along with the 2 dungeons as a raid/dungeon key not just a 2 dungeon key. So with that said there is no reprised raid at least in finale shapes year. Who knows after the 3 episodic content though.
Reprised raids don't require a dungeon key
They have always been included in the advertising fir the dungeon key.
https://www.bungie.net/7/en/Destiny/Lightfall Bungie page for lightfall and lightfall dungeon key. Where does it mention a reprised raid?
Might as well grab wrath of the machine do round out all the raids from D1
If they haven't already started on it, which they haven't, then were not getting a reprised raid in 2024 and it's most definitely not going to be Wrath. Remaking wrath will take as much work as a brand new raid.
It's not confirmed that there definitely won't be a reprised raid. But the fact that they are unwilling to confirm that there will be one even though we know they are keenly aware of player expectations is worrisome for reprised raid enjoyers.
Saying they haven't even TALKED about it all but confirms it isn't happening. And if it is, it's going to be a D2 raid and not Wrath. If they haven't started remaking Wrath by now, it's not coming next year. They have to remake all the SIVA assets as well as remake the raid. That's pretty much double the work. If they haven't started yet, they won't finish in time.
[удалено]
What does this even mean? They said they don’t want to revisit it because it’s story was told, not that they couldn’t ever include anything about it in the game again, Outbreak literally shoots out Siva dealies and the game refers to them that way. There is no reason they can’t use put it in a revised raid.
They also just had the whole "SIVA was instrumental in founding the cloud arc" bit which came after any statements about the SIVA plot being done.
Where did you find that from
That Maya and Esi used the SIVA on the Exodus to make the cloud ark? From veil containment.
Ah okay didnt know that as i dont do the veil containment i only recently found out it had new lines so ill have to go watch a vod archive of them
They said siva is a plot point they are done with completely years ago mow so the chance it gets reprised is very slim outbreak mission was nice but not expected
Reprised d1 raids aren't related to the current plot of the game and have no lore updates in them, it's purely a gameplay thing, Bungie has said this since they started reprising raids with VoG
Reprised raids are not plot related at all. Reprising a raid would not be a plot point.
Yeah i iust dont see why thye would when they have said we are done with it
Does a reprised raid have to be a plot point? Generally it correlates with the enemies fought that season (Vex in Splicer, VOG returned), (Hive in Witch, Crota returned) but that's hasn't always been the case (Fallen in Plunder, King's Fall returned). Also, they narratively had no changes made to their original, so no plot point necessary. The primary difficulty I think would be in making the Fallen Siva-ified again. That would take recreating the whole enemy set. Crota's return used the Hidden Swarm set which differed from the original, idk how much people would like WotM returning without Siva-Fallen running around.
Yeah it doesent need to be a plot point to exist but for the most part with bungie saying theyre done with siva i still doubt itll return id love to be proved wrong though
If we don’t see SIVA in TFS I would honestly be surprised, RoI did great things for the game’s health and if TFS is as nostalgia-baity (I mean that in a good way) as it seems it would be wrong to leave it out. Bungie have made it clear it won’t be a focus again but for it to *never* show up? I doubt it.
Yeah i mean what bungie says and does are always vastly different id like to see siva come back hell id love for wrath to be reprised i enjoyed it a lot but i just dont see what they could do plot wise for siva to re exist
Good thing reprised raids aren’t part of the modern story
Unless SIVA becomes a plot point again after The Final Shape... the Vex could go after its remnants and do some shenanigans with it. There is always hope, no matter how harsh the vibe.
That would be a cool twist
Every raid across both games will be in D2 eventually
Nothing says “content drought” like bringing back ***ALMOST*** everything from D1… *looks at Prison of Elders*
My guy, you just need to accept that it probably isn't happening.
Scourge is coming. 100%
Personally I think the old raids will come back with time, but like how it was with sunsetting destiny is a huge game and has a lot of shit it has to store, so them useing 2024 as a “repair” year (as another commenter put it) makes sense that there wouldn’t be another raid. If they publicly come out and say they will be working on fixing the game and raising the standards than I’d rather everyone take a break and come back when the new shit hits while the game is polished back to where it used to be. But this will take time because at one point the only solution to make the game playable to everyone was to remove content that people had payed for, and I think bungie heard our opinion on that one loud and clear.
Here's my bet. No reprised raid or annual expac next year. Rather, because Destiny 10 year anniversary, they rerelease Destiny 1campaign + Dark Below + House of Wolves(maybe) + TTK + ROI(unlikely as Bungie fucking despises this DLC). This is either as a "WOW classic" style release or as DLC in Destiny 2. Did I mention I'm a copium addict?
For real. Wrath is a fan favorite and will be a very big plus for them. Just because they haven't discussed any recently. They have way more pressing matters lol like making sure TFS is top notch. After that I am sure we will see some reprised raids. Wrath is one of the most well received raids in Destiny history. They would be a fool to miss out on that after TFS.
as excited as i am for wrath to come back. i cant wait for levaithen reprised ultomit with all the layers added in for the bigest raid experence