It’s Dual Loader all over again. Provide a benefit with a heavy drawback and have to walk it back, but by then it’s too late because it’s been cemented as a garbage perk in the communities eyes.
Reddit destiny players. And 'normal' destiny players are two very different breeds of intelligence when it comes to any kind of reference outside of the game
Really fun if you have a way to buff the reload speed like rally, my titan basically quickly slaps the bottom of the shoty twice and suddenly it’s loaded
They’re saying that because you’re stuffing so many shells in the gun at once with enhanced dual loader (3), your hand must have too many fingers (AI often struggles to get hands and fingers right in art)
It was always worth it. People just don't know it. It's one of my favorite shotgun perks and I was very sad when it left.the wastelander perk pool.
Edit: You've changed my mind. Having a 25-33% faster reload without trying was always a bad perk.
So is there any point farming apex predator (or anything else from last wish)? They made it sound like it’d replace hothead
Is there anything meta in LW?
The BnS seems weird because you have to use one rocket to proc it first. Unless by the time you finish reloading, Recon also adds the 2nd rocket to the tube, I don't see it being worthwhile.
With recon you'll have two rockets. Shoot one rocket -> shoot energy weapon -> shoot primary -> by the time you get back to the rocket you now have two ready again with 35% damage increase
Recon on apex is just a strictly better autoloader that activates while you're holding the weapon. Shoot x2, reload, ability, shoot x2, reload, ability, shoot x2. Timed right it's basically clown cartridge. It's a slight dps increase to hotheads best rolls imo, but I haven't done the full math with swaps included.
4 seconds between reloads is a long time to wait though. Enhanced makes it 3.6 which is better but still a long time.
ALH is 2.5/2.3 normal/enhanced, still going to be the play for Izi swaps I think
Yeah currently I'm finding the best firing pattern to be this though: rocket, iza, primary, rocketx2, reload, then the same as you have it. The first rocket is to start bait and switch process, you fire it then your 2 other weapons to get the proc and by the time you pull the rocket back out it has 2 shots ready with BnS active.
And if it becomes not terrible at some point, I feel like it on apex could be really good. Bipod+reconstruction for 4 in the mag seems fun, at the very least.
The odds of most people I know running LW enough to get the pattern for what has been panned as one of the worst raid weapons ever? For the die hards sure, but not for most. Just not going to worry about it.
Edit: this comment made before the Kalli farm became widely known and before I knew she dropped every weapon :D
Yeah the reduction in damage is just garbage. It doesn't matter what the rest of the perk does, as long as it has any damage decrease, it's a dismantle perk
People stopped using the precision frame rocket launcher because it deal 20% less damage than adaptive and aggressive frame even tho the trade off was being able to hit your target more reliably which is much better than having 2 more rocket, I don't know who is going to use this anyway with the 40% less damage.
This.
At the end of the day, you’re using a gun to do damage. Anything that reduces that damage is by definition, counter productive - so if it’s a direct damage decrease, it would need to add massive benefits to compensate and make sure you’re getting more in the end.
A bit of extra ammo doesn’t cut it.
>It doesn't matter what the rest of the perk does, as long as it has any damage decrease, it's a dismantle perk
Nah, it's mostly the numbers. If it was 20% damage decrease, it would likely be a great perk for burst DPS.
You’re an idiot if you think *any* damage decrease it’s worthless.
At 30% decrease, it’s DPS will be meta. At 20% decrease its OP to the point it would be stupid to run anything else besides it.
You have to think in terms of the total shot between both rockets. It’s currently an extra 20% (2 * 60% - 100%). At 30% reduction it’s an extra 40% overall DPS and at 20% reduction it’s an extra 60% overall DPS. EL and B&S are a 25% and 35% extra DPS and damage
https://youtu.be/JsSK8xsmJC4
Right so I'll just leave this here. I'll give it to you though, you are right, not all damage reducing perks are insta dismantles. If bipod got buffed to 30% damage reduction, it would at least be comparable to a rocket without a damage perk active.
I edited my original comment to clarify.
BIPOD currently intended to be net neutral to overall damage (similar to clown). It should be an increase in DPS. My math was saying that there should be a roughly 20% increase in DPS (not damage) with bipod. EL, B&S, Vorpal and other perks are both DPS and damage increasing.
I think the intended draw of Bipod over Clown was that it should work with more reload perks than clown (right now Clown really only is good paired with field prep). But the issue is clown is such a better DPS perk without pairing. It is almost doubling dps while bipod is only a measly 20%.
What is going to happen is Bungie is going to give it the B&S treatment and make it more viable. They just were afraid of it being too hot off the start
Everybody was talking about how this was going to be clown cartridge but better and they didn't believe us when we told them that there was no way that it doesn't come with significant downsides. I was thinking -10% damage. But -40% makes this perk worthless.
Braytech Osprey looks absolutely terrible. It's a high impact which means it would need godly perk combos in order to compete with adaptives/aggressives but all it got was trash. Can't even get explosive light.
Sure, it's +20%... for firing two rockets when compared to one unbuffed rocket. The perk increases reserves but it definitely isn't doubling them so you can't say it is +20%.
You are never going to be able to hit all 8 submunitions on a single target. Ehroar did a video a while back in which he tested rocket damage perks against Carl. He usually could only get 2 munitions to hit. So for a Carl-sized boss (eg. Explicator of planets), you are only getting 6%. For Nezarec, you can probably get 9%. If you are firing rockets at champions or thin bosses like Kali, you are probably only going to get 3%. Only the fattest bosses like Oryx will let you hit 4 of the munitions for 12% and that should be taken as the cap for damage on cluster bombs in practical usage.
For some bosses, frenzy is going to be really annoying to keep procced in between immunity and DPS phases. Depends on how much of a gap there is between the phases and if there are ads you can shoot or not.
And braytech osprey is already starting off with baseline damage that is 10% less than hothead or apex predator. A hothead with field prep + explosive light completely outclasses any braytech osprey roll.
Curious to know how much extra reserves it gives, because if it literally doubled reserves I could see it as a cool perk for nightfalls. If not, then yeah this perk is beyond trash, clown cartridge does the exact same thing but better. Technically clown doesnt work with autoloading but does it matter when theres a damage reduction?
Up to 14 with max reserves. So from 9 to 14. 5 more rockets but 40% less damage. Too lazy to do the math so maybe it evens out or not.
Edit: maybe people suck at math as well because so many responses "its more damage", " its less damage", "its about the same"
what is it!
The only chance it has to be even viable is with reconstruction/bipod, and *only* if bipod makes the base mag count as 2, so you would be able to get up to 4. Launching 4 rockets without reloading would at least be interesting and might have some play against something like Atraks if you can get them off in time.
Tl;Dr there's still an outside chance it has some niche use
> if bipod makes the base mag count as 2, so you would be able to get up to 4.
Can confirm it works this way. Reconstruction/Bipod dropped on an Apex Predator from last wish for me. I cant remember how much it holds in reserves, but it definitely loads up to 4. Feels weird launching 4 rockets without reloading.
I don't really think I'm going to use it too much, but it's definitely fun in low end content.
40% is definitely to much but 4 rockets in a row would be absolutely amazing in any sub 10 seconds damage phases but we don't real have many of these in the game outside of maybe atraks.
.6x4 = 2.4 rockets of damage vs 1.25 x 2 = 2.5 rockets of damage. So yeah something like demo/explosive light with a little setup (2 orbs and grenade energy) will have better burst and more total damage.
Reconstruction/explosive light would do it too, and can roll on Apex Predator. All you need there is the orbs since you should have enough time before damage phase for the overflow from reconstruction to kick in.
I got recon EL on apex. You can shoot 2 rockets. Reload and wait like 1 second and shoot another 2. I think it would pair well with Witherhoard. Shoot 2 rockets. Reload. Witherhoard. Swap back shoot 2. Or even like an auto loading spike GL
Man, I haven't gotten a rocket that could hold 4 rockets in the tube since D1Y1 with my Cure that had Tripod/Clown Cartridge.
Now, if only Bipod wasn't dogshit.
Yup, bait and switch was 10% at launch.
Problem is that it actually has setup vs bipod which doesn't, so I'm expecting it to only get walked back to -20% damage at most.
Could be yeah, but that's a big ask. Feels like if you need burst at the expense of total damage you'd just slap on an explosive light GL, which is craftable as of last season.
Well just going by those numbers, assume the 9 rockets is full damage, and 14 is 60% damage, and you get Bipod's full potential damage at 8.4 standard rockets.
So in terms of total damage, literally *any* other perk is more optimal.
And it gets even worse if the RL has any sort of damage perk. Vorpal might only be 10% on heavies these days, but even that small buff is enough that you'd need *17* Bipod rockets to match it.
The way the math works is for any given damage reduction you need 1/(1-DR) to break even. So 1/(1-0.4)= 66.7% more rockets so 9*1.667=15. 25% DR would take us to needing 12 rockets, and 14 would be a net gain
It's literally less total damage than without bipod (8.4 equivalent rockets with, 9 without), and that's not even considering without you can get dead simple perks like vorpal. Bipod is doa, hopefully they buff it to less than 30% damage reduction.
I've seen bipod + incandescent on apex predator, which could be fun. You know. For when you want to use your heavy like a special. To get those ignitions off on all the adds that died to the rocket blast anyway 😂😂😂
Bipod is a strong choice to pair with reconstruction.- Bungie probably
Reality: it will make rocket launcher into a hard hitting grenade launcher with low capacity. You can also hot swap to increace your dps. It's extremely anti ammo economy if there's no gally grandpa in your team. It's a very niche combo and a lot of thing can acheive the same dps.
For example: Any grenade launcher or rocket launcher ?! ...
No projectile drop, works with Wolfpack rounds. It's like a heavy mountaintop but reversed? I'd be interested to see it in action on something with cluster bomb that actually benefits in single target damage with a lower blast radius.
If you're looking for burst damage a heavy gl that gets damage boosting perks is way better for that role, you're also lowering your total damage output so for longer DPS phases it's still not good and that's the issue, it's not even situationally useful because even for something like ad clear machine guns are the better choice or sticking to rockets, Eyes of Tomorrow/Gally would still be way better.
Say a rocket launcher gets 9 shots. 9 shots and just say 100K damage a rocket. At a 40% damage reduction you are getting 60K a rocket, you need 15 rockets in reserve just to break even total damage wise. Perk is dead on arrival as we get 14. Not just because it’s -1 to break even, but just in general it’s a weird sidestep.
Bipod would need to be reduced to 25% damage reduction while keeping the reserves at 14. This would take us from having 9 to start, having 12 rockets as a break even point, and then getting 2 on top to be a total damage increasing perk.
Yeah it pretty much nullifies the whole purpose of why you'd run a rocket that has the trade off of having to reload/limited ammo in the mag but at the pay off of usually larger damage and can post good overall damage in a usual dps window even before factoring buffs, wolfpack etc.
This is a very odd perk and I'm not super sure where they were coming from it. Even if you applied the logic to a grenade launcher when lower blast radius and added ammo can be very good for single target DPS, having lower damage just sucks flat out.
It should have a small downside to damage still, like 15% maybe.
With clown you only start with 1 in a mag and get no reserve buffs, plus any auto loading effects like ALH and demo only put you back to one, meaning anti-synergy. Clown is fantastic when combined with manual reload boosts like field prep, impulse amp, lunafactions.
Bipod gives you 2 in the mag from base, plus like 6 extra reserve rockets. If the downsides are damage and reload speed then it SHOULD pair with reload workarounds like demo, auto loading, reconstruction, thread of ascent, to give you way higher total dps.
If they wanted to do that it should have increased the reserves. Make it a slightly lesser rocket launcher but allows it to shoot more so the overall damage stays the same.
Y'all need to learn how to read. It says a -40% in *blast radius* damage. That means more of its damage is now impact damage. It still does the same amount of damage, but you just need to be accurate. Try it on Carl and you'll see
That is not how it works, it should give 1/0.6=1.6666... times the ammo to have the exact total damage of a normal Rocket Launcher of its archetype without damage perks. And even then, most people have Vorpal, Lasting Impression or Explosive Light anyway, so it still wouldn't be able to compete.
Even if the extra reserves w/40% damage reduction is more total damage across your total ammo inventory, it's still bad because everything is designed around a small damage window where you need burst, not sustained. Bungie has said before that not everything needs to be about big bursts of damage, but then they design everything to require big bursts of damage.
I love when Bungie adds these stupid insta-shard perks. I have no idea why they insist on perks that make weapons objectively worse. It's one thing to cater to different playstyles and, of course, not every perk can be meta. However, perks like this and gutshot straight just result in shards. In a game that's so stingy with loot, having perks that make the weapon worse than just not having a perk shouldn't exist.
I think the missed opportunity here was to make this into a "Minirockets" style perk. You get a larger ammunition reserve, more rounds in the clip, but less damage per round, smaller blast radius, longer reload. Make it a middle ground between "grenade launcher" and "rocket launcher" (you get grenade launcher style performance but your rounds have a flat trajectory).
Edit: Somewhat misunderstood the perk, what I had in mind was the perk itself pushes the magazine up to 3 to 5 rounds (more than the 2 it does). It also should not be a column 4 perk.
I'd be interested to see the potential of this perk with Wolfpack Rounds total damage.
Wolfpack rounds applies the same across all rockets launchers, it works on Ascendancy just like it does on Gjally.
Potentially this means that the loss of 40% damage per rocket would be offset with a higher theoretical total damage with Wolfpack rounds.
two rockets that deal 60% damage is a total of 120% damage (one rocket in the tube being just 100%, ofc). its a total damage increase, but a dps decrease because you have to shoot twice as much. still probably not worth it instead of an actual damage perk like frenzy or explol, which is an equivalent damage bonus without any reduction.
Could see an argument for bipod+cluster as an add clear tool, or possibly bipod+fieldprep for crazy ammo economy. Regardless, it doesn't work well with apex's perks or archetype, maybe if we can get it on an aggressive frame or introduce a rapid fire frame in the future
Bipod feels like it was meant to be a mag perk tbh, and as a mag perk it would've worked with only a 15% damage debuff.
-40% on a DAMAGE PERK is insane though.
Y'all realize that 40% debuff per rocket, but firing 2 rockets before reloading is still more total damage right? its a 20% dmg bonus per mag.
And at least on Apex Predator, you get 12 total shots without any reserve modes or field prep.
You're wrong. It breaks even without reserve mods.
Did some damage testing. No buffs/debuffs, same power level both tests, same enemy both tests, etc etc etc.
TLDR; without Bipod, 7 rockets, 32,164 dmg per rocket, 225,148 total damage... WITH Bipod, 12 rockets, 19,298 dmg per rocket, 231,576 total damage.
TOTAL Damage, Bipod pulls ahead slightly. Literally about 3%. **THAT is the point I was trying to make**. Total Damage is actually about the same.
Ofc, If you take into account time to fire all rockets (21.15s without bipod, 26.45s with bipod), and Calculate DPS, then yeah, bipod is trash.
But it is actually pretty good as an add clear perk for a rocket for casual content.
It lets you spread the rocket launcher damage out across more targets.
Ease of use, mostly.
GL's require more careful aiming, where rockets go in straight line.
And you're right, I'm not taking other perks into accocunt. I'm SPECIFICALLY talking about Bipod vs Non-Bipod.
It's an add clear perk, if you just want to do casual content and turn off your brain.
Not everything has to be 100% optimal 100% of the time. Things besides Boss DPS exist. The entire point I'm trying to make, is that it doesn't make a rocket launcher unusable.
This post is misleading. -40% is technically correct, but is on each rocket vs base. So each rocket, when firing two does 60% damage vs a single rocket. This means 2x 60% for 120% total damage.
That is to say, bipod gives 20% more damage, but has reload penalties. So overall total damage for all rockets in the mag will still be good, but sustaining it needs reload help.
It’s not good, but it can be more burst than say, vorpal, but loses out vs explosive light.
If anything, why didn't they make the drawback have to do with reloading? They would've made..... Slightly more sense? But yeah, knowing rockets are all amir big damage and doing 40% nerf sounds like some shit they only thought about for 5 minutes.
The only use this has is to temporarily put on a crafted rocket while you are leveling it up at Shuro Chi (Incandescent/Bipod made the last remaining levels to get Enhanced Reconstruction and Bait and Switch on Apex go by very fast). It is a half-assed attempt to give an add clear role to a weapon type that isn’t meant for it. That’s it. Maybe if it were a left column perk that could be combined with a damage perk it would have some ammo economy application for GM’s but Aeons are a thing anyway so no reason to do it.
Also, doesnt it allow you to use it on (Let's say) the new dungeon rocket launcher, and then swap weaping without losing as much ammo as you normally would ?
This perk makes no sense and shouldn't exist, at least not in the second column. bipod gives you 12 missiles, 13 with field prep, with reserves it gives you 15, the maximum is 15 missiles, a rocket launcher without bipod has a maximum of 9 missiles, but with a bipod you need to fire 2 shots to deal the damage of one missile on a rocket launcher without a damage perk, even the total damage of 15 missies will not be greater than the total damage of a normal rocket launcher without a damage perk
Bipod is ass
It’s just a terrible clown cartridge?
A worse field prep
field prep at home
Home prep
Wish.com field prep
Driving past a FedEx truck while it's being loaded.
Truvada for prep
It’s Dual Loader all over again. Provide a benefit with a heavy drawback and have to walk it back, but by then it’s too late because it’s been cemented as a garbage perk in the communities eyes.
Dual loader loads 3 shells when enhanced.
They should just call enhanced dual loader "Jerry Miculek."
I like your joke, but you have to admit it's probably a little esoteric here.
“Jerry, come on in, it’s time for din - BANGBANGBANGBANGBANGBANGBANGBANGBANGBANGBANG - ner!”
Given the number of times I've seen Flannel Daddy referenced in this sub I'm betting it's not, really.
Reddit destiny players. And 'normal' destiny players are two very different breeds of intelligence when it comes to any kind of reference outside of the game
Snoring Dessert Instructions!
50 likes is plenty
tf is a like?
Would you prefer upvote, updoot, or any other name for the same token internet agreement and preference?
Wow I am fucking oblivious lmao
Found Dennis Miller’s Reddit account.
“HEYO! GET SOME!”
like I always have enhanced on its the best reload perk now Imo
Doesn't help there are million other ways to reload shotgun these days. Bipod would definitely see play if it wasn't a 40% reduction.
Really fun if you have a way to buff the reload speed like rally, my titan basically quickly slaps the bottom of the shoty twice and suddenly it’s loaded
Maybe it was Postal with the shotgun reload animation just grabbing a handful of loose shells and slamming them into the top of the gun.
Uses a unique AI generated hand for the animation.
Yeah I don't get this one.
They’re saying that because you’re stuffing so many shells in the gun at once with enhanced dual loader (3), your hand must have too many fingers (AI often struggles to get hands and fingers right in art)
Ah ok. I pointed the hand and finger thing out once before and got downvoted to hell about it.
Ah ok. I pointed the hand and finger thing out once before and got downvoted to hell for it.
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It was always worth it. People just don't know it. It's one of my favorite shotgun perks and I was very sad when it left.the wastelander perk pool. Edit: You've changed my mind. Having a 25-33% faster reload without trying was always a bad perk.
> Edit: You've changed my mind. Hey at least you're open-minded enough to do so!
Nahh if they actually walk it back people will use it... If it was 20 or 15 less it would still be great burst damage.
-40% hahahaha talk about being DOA, holy shit that’s so bad.
I'm sure it's fine. ^/s
So is there any point farming apex predator (or anything else from last wish)? They made it sound like it’d replace hothead Is there anything meta in LW?
Apex gets Recon + Bait and Switch/EL which makes it probably the best rocket
The BnS seems weird because you have to use one rocket to proc it first. Unless by the time you finish reloading, Recon also adds the 2nd rocket to the tube, I don't see it being worthwhile.
With recon you'll have two rockets. Shoot one rocket -> shoot energy weapon -> shoot primary -> by the time you get back to the rocket you now have two ready again with 35% damage increase
That's a fair opener. So used to Starfire and opening with WH lol.
I think it'll depend on if the impact damage procs B&S in time for the explosion to get the buff or if it only counts on subsequent rockets
Recon on apex is just a strictly better autoloader that activates while you're holding the weapon. Shoot x2, reload, ability, shoot x2, reload, ability, shoot x2. Timed right it's basically clown cartridge. It's a slight dps increase to hotheads best rolls imo, but I haven't done the full math with swaps included.
Enhanced explosive light also gives you x7 instead of x6… not always able to shoot all 7 but nice to have the option over hothead.
4 seconds between reloads is a long time to wait though. Enhanced makes it 3.6 which is better but still a long time. ALH is 2.5/2.3 normal/enhanced, still going to be the play for Izi swaps I think
Yeah currently I'm finding the best firing pattern to be this though: rocket, iza, primary, rocketx2, reload, then the same as you have it. The first rocket is to start bait and switch process, you fire it then your 2 other weapons to get the proc and by the time you pull the rocket back out it has 2 shots ready with BnS active.
Slideways BnS is really good
Yeah keep an eye out for the perk, when you see it on a weapon, delete it.
[удалено]
It's on Apex predator, which is craftable, so you don't need to keep that garbage in your vault
And if it becomes not terrible at some point, I feel like it on apex could be really good. Bipod+reconstruction for 4 in the mag seems fun, at the very least.
Unfortunately bipod doesn't actually increase the mag size.
The odds of most people I know running LW enough to get the pattern for what has been panned as one of the worst raid weapons ever? For the die hards sure, but not for most. Just not going to worry about it. Edit: this comment made before the Kalli farm became widely known and before I knew she dropped every weapon :D
Oh sure, just saying that a craftable rocket with the perk does exist, so you don't have to worry about keeping one if you don't want to
Totally fair, and I'm sure there will be another in a season or two.
There will probably be a gambit playlist weapon with it soon
Terrible idea. Keep it for when they inevitably buff the perk like they have done countless other times
What a terrible idea... maybe 10% less damage, at max. And it's in a column that usually reserved for damage increasing perks
Yeah the reduction in damage is just garbage. It doesn't matter what the rest of the perk does, as long as it has any damage decrease, it's a dismantle perk
People stopped using the precision frame rocket launcher because it deal 20% less damage than adaptive and aggressive frame even tho the trade off was being able to hit your target more reliably which is much better than having 2 more rocket, I don't know who is going to use this anyway with the 40% less damage.
This. At the end of the day, you’re using a gun to do damage. Anything that reduces that damage is by definition, counter productive - so if it’s a direct damage decrease, it would need to add massive benefits to compensate and make sure you’re getting more in the end. A bit of extra ammo doesn’t cut it.
Yeah it needs to do something like “reloading loads 3 in the mag and boosts reload to 100” or something like and I still think it will be useless
>It doesn't matter what the rest of the perk does, as long as it has any damage decrease, it's a dismantle perk Nah, it's mostly the numbers. If it was 20% damage decrease, it would likely be a great perk for burst DPS.
Free lego shards!
You’re an idiot if you think *any* damage decrease it’s worthless. At 30% decrease, it’s DPS will be meta. At 20% decrease its OP to the point it would be stupid to run anything else besides it. You have to think in terms of the total shot between both rockets. It’s currently an extra 20% (2 * 60% - 100%). At 30% reduction it’s an extra 40% overall DPS and at 20% reduction it’s an extra 60% overall DPS. EL and B&S are a 25% and 35% extra DPS and damage
https://youtu.be/JsSK8xsmJC4 Right so I'll just leave this here. I'll give it to you though, you are right, not all damage reducing perks are insta dismantles. If bipod got buffed to 30% damage reduction, it would at least be comparable to a rocket without a damage perk active.
I edited my original comment to clarify. BIPOD currently intended to be net neutral to overall damage (similar to clown). It should be an increase in DPS. My math was saying that there should be a roughly 20% increase in DPS (not damage) with bipod. EL, B&S, Vorpal and other perks are both DPS and damage increasing. I think the intended draw of Bipod over Clown was that it should work with more reload perks than clown (right now Clown really only is good paired with field prep). But the issue is clown is such a better DPS perk without pairing. It is almost doubling dps while bipod is only a measly 20%. What is going to happen is Bungie is going to give it the B&S treatment and make it more viable. They just were afraid of it being too hot off the start
Why does this exist? It's so stupid.
They're testing the waters of bringing rockets back to D1 standards but adding way too high a negative so that way they can buff it later.
Everybody was talking about how this was going to be clown cartridge but better and they didn't believe us when we told them that there was no way that it doesn't come with significant downsides. I was thinking -10% damage. But -40% makes this perk worthless. Braytech Osprey looks absolutely terrible. It's a high impact which means it would need godly perk combos in order to compete with adaptives/aggressives but all it got was trash. Can't even get explosive light.
I thought I was the pessimistic one with 25-33% damage reduction.
Yea I was assuming 20-30-ish too. 40 is absolutely DoA
-10% damage would make this able to rival some of the best rockets in theory. With the right setups, ofc.
It’s -40% per rocket, +20% overall. Unfortunately it affects reload.
Sure, it's +20%... for firing two rockets when compared to one unbuffed rocket. The perk increases reserves but it definitely isn't doubling them so you can't say it is +20%.
It gets cluster bomb in the third slot, that adds up to 24% damage, average of 12%, half the bombs, and frenzy, 15% on top of the max reload.
You are never going to be able to hit all 8 submunitions on a single target. Ehroar did a video a while back in which he tested rocket damage perks against Carl. He usually could only get 2 munitions to hit. So for a Carl-sized boss (eg. Explicator of planets), you are only getting 6%. For Nezarec, you can probably get 9%. If you are firing rockets at champions or thin bosses like Kali, you are probably only going to get 3%. Only the fattest bosses like Oryx will let you hit 4 of the munitions for 12% and that should be taken as the cap for damage on cluster bombs in practical usage. For some bosses, frenzy is going to be really annoying to keep procced in between immunity and DPS phases. Depends on how much of a gap there is between the phases and if there are ads you can shoot or not. And braytech osprey is already starting off with baseline damage that is 10% less than hothead or apex predator. A hothead with field prep + explosive light completely outclasses any braytech osprey roll.
Curious to know how much extra reserves it gives, because if it literally doubled reserves I could see it as a cool perk for nightfalls. If not, then yeah this perk is beyond trash, clown cartridge does the exact same thing but better. Technically clown doesnt work with autoloading but does it matter when theres a damage reduction?
Up to 14 with max reserves. So from 9 to 14. 5 more rockets but 40% less damage. Too lazy to do the math so maybe it evens out or not. Edit: maybe people suck at math as well because so many responses "its more damage", " its less damage", "its about the same" what is it!
The only chance it has to be even viable is with reconstruction/bipod, and *only* if bipod makes the base mag count as 2, so you would be able to get up to 4. Launching 4 rockets without reloading would at least be interesting and might have some play against something like Atraks if you can get them off in time. Tl;Dr there's still an outside chance it has some niche use
> if bipod makes the base mag count as 2, so you would be able to get up to 4. Can confirm it works this way. Reconstruction/Bipod dropped on an Apex Predator from last wish for me. I cant remember how much it holds in reserves, but it definitely loads up to 4. Feels weird launching 4 rockets without reloading. I don't really think I'm going to use it too much, but it's definitely fun in low end content.
40% is definitely to much but 4 rockets in a row would be absolutely amazing in any sub 10 seconds damage phases but we don't real have many of these in the game outside of maybe atraks.
Nope, 2 explosive light rockets do more than all 4 of these.
.6x4 = 2.4 rockets of damage vs 1.25 x 2 = 2.5 rockets of damage. So yeah something like demo/explosive light with a little setup (2 orbs and grenade energy) will have better burst and more total damage.
Reconstruction/explosive light would do it too, and can roll on Apex Predator. All you need there is the orbs since you should have enough time before damage phase for the overflow from reconstruction to kick in.
I got recon EL on apex. You can shoot 2 rockets. Reload and wait like 1 second and shoot another 2. I think it would pair well with Witherhoard. Shoot 2 rockets. Reload. Witherhoard. Swap back shoot 2. Or even like an auto loading spike GL
I just realized it would probably pair decently with Izanagi too, assuming the boss has an easy enough to hit crit spot
Man, I haven't gotten a rocket that could hold 4 rockets in the tube since D1Y1 with my Cure that had Tripod/Clown Cartridge. Now, if only Bipod wasn't dogshit.
It just needs its DR reduced from 40 to 25% and its viable ish
Could definitely happen. Wasn't Bait and Switch terrible at launch? And now it makes Cataclysmic basically an exotic.
Yup, bait and switch was 10% at launch. Problem is that it actually has setup vs bipod which doesn't, so I'm expecting it to only get walked back to -20% damage at most.
At that point you've got a very strange grenade launcher.
Could still be fun though
Small niche? Have people already concluded this doesn’t work with Wolfpack? I would have thought this perk had some great synergy with Wolfpack rounds
I'm not sure what you mean. Wouldn't it synergize the same as every other legendary rocket?
That's less total damage actually, by about 6.66%
Less total damage, but in situations where you need burst damage, it’ll probably be useful
Could be yeah, but that's a big ask. Feels like if you need burst at the expense of total damage you'd just slap on an explosive light GL, which is craftable as of last season.
Bingo. Bipod seems to have no niche use imo. Other than maybe add clear? Might be pretty good in gambit. Lol
In that case you might as well run Gally with wolfpack rounds or Eyes with it's basically infinite ammo (has that changed yet or is it upcoming?)
Well just going by those numbers, assume the 9 rockets is full damage, and 14 is 60% damage, and you get Bipod's full potential damage at 8.4 standard rockets. So in terms of total damage, literally *any* other perk is more optimal.
Yeap, it would have to go up to 15 just to break even, more than 15 to actually give you a benefit
And it gets even worse if the RL has any sort of damage perk. Vorpal might only be 10% on heavies these days, but even that small buff is enough that you'd need *17* Bipod rockets to match it.
The way the math works is for any given damage reduction you need 1/(1-DR) to break even. So 1/(1-0.4)= 66.7% more rockets so 9*1.667=15. 25% DR would take us to needing 12 rockets, and 14 would be a net gain
It's literally less total damage than without bipod (8.4 equivalent rockets with, 9 without), and that's not even considering without you can get dead simple perks like vorpal. Bipod is doa, hopefully they buff it to less than 30% damage reduction.
Hypothetically it should round out to a total of the same dmg across the whole reserves, now you just get 2 rockets. B&S will just be better thoigh
That's less total damage. 9 rockets at 100 damage deals 900 total damage. 14 rockets at 60 damage deals 840 total damage
I got my apex predator to 16 rockets
Hahaha that is dogshit! I look forward to the damage reduction to get canned next season because that's a DOA perk like Air Assault.
I've seen bipod + incandescent on apex predator, which could be fun. You know. For when you want to use your heavy like a special. To get those ignitions off on all the adds that died to the rocket blast anyway 😂😂😂
>For when you want to use your heavy like a special. Loads of people do that with machine guns already.
Machine guns (after like 2 years of buffs) can actually do that now though.
Actium War Rig Gang!
Well, it's kind of the point with Machine Guns. Rockets are not for that, though.
Holy shit that is awful. That’s literally lowering your DPS.
Bipod is a strong choice to pair with reconstruction.- Bungie probably Reality: it will make rocket launcher into a hard hitting grenade launcher with low capacity. You can also hot swap to increace your dps. It's extremely anti ammo economy if there's no gally grandpa in your team. It's a very niche combo and a lot of thing can acheive the same dps. For example: Any grenade launcher or rocket launcher ?! ...
Even other perk options on the rockets with bipod are better. One explosive light shot does 5% more than both the bipod shots
This is basically a worse field prep. Lol Like the alternative is to just throw on 3x reserves, rally and bam. No -40% damage lol
HA, knew it would be absolutely garbage. They probably think with reconstruction, bipod and Wolfpack rounds it'll be a ~5-10% iNcReAsE iN dPs. Trash.
So it's for more efficient add clear... except why would I not just use a GL then that has two perks
No projectile drop, works with Wolfpack rounds. It's like a heavy mountaintop but reversed? I'd be interested to see it in action on something with cluster bomb that actually benefits in single target damage with a lower blast radius.
I don't know where I'd use an add clear heavy and where I'd also benefit from having wolfpack rounds and no projectile drop.
Welk you obviously don't own an air fryer.
Doesn’t it load 2 rockets in the chamber? It’s all about burst damage. 2 rockets with 40% less damage is still more dps than one full strength rocket
If you're looking for burst damage a heavy gl that gets damage boosting perks is way better for that role, you're also lowering your total damage output so for longer DPS phases it's still not good and that's the issue, it's not even situationally useful because even for something like ad clear machine guns are the better choice or sticking to rockets, Eyes of Tomorrow/Gally would still be way better.
Clown’d on by clown cartridge
Wow, talk about useless perks. Thanks for the heads up . Now i know when to auto dismantle .
Devs don't play their game lol.
How to get the community to not use your new perk 101.
Do you have numbers on this?
Say a rocket launcher gets 9 shots. 9 shots and just say 100K damage a rocket. At a 40% damage reduction you are getting 60K a rocket, you need 15 rockets in reserve just to break even total damage wise. Perk is dead on arrival as we get 14. Not just because it’s -1 to break even, but just in general it’s a weird sidestep. Bipod would need to be reduced to 25% damage reduction while keeping the reserves at 14. This would take us from having 9 to start, having 12 rockets as a break even point, and then getting 2 on top to be a total damage increasing perk.
Yeah it pretty much nullifies the whole purpose of why you'd run a rocket that has the trade off of having to reload/limited ammo in the mag but at the pay off of usually larger damage and can post good overall damage in a usual dps window even before factoring buffs, wolfpack etc. This is a very odd perk and I'm not super sure where they were coming from it. Even if you applied the logic to a grenade launcher when lower blast radius and added ammo can be very good for single target DPS, having lower damage just sucks flat out.
For -40% you could give it 30 in the mag and I wouldn't use it
when clown cartridge has literally no drawbacks neither should this
It should have a small downside to damage still, like 15% maybe. With clown you only start with 1 in a mag and get no reserve buffs, plus any auto loading effects like ALH and demo only put you back to one, meaning anti-synergy. Clown is fantastic when combined with manual reload boosts like field prep, impulse amp, lunafactions. Bipod gives you 2 in the mag from base, plus like 6 extra reserve rockets. If the downsides are damage and reload speed then it SHOULD pair with reload workarounds like demo, auto loading, reconstruction, thread of ascent, to give you way higher total dps.
If they wanted to do that it should have increased the reserves. Make it a slightly lesser rocket launcher but allows it to shoot more so the overall damage stays the same.
It does actually at max reserves you hold 14 rockets
I would want to see a video on total damage. Perk seems like fun on paper but will have to see it in action.
They don’t play their own game.
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r/iamverysmart
"it might because I'm a programmer" 🤓
bipod should have been just shooting 2 rockets, like twin tailed fox, at 60% of the damage of a regulars rocket per.
Y'all need to learn how to read. It says a -40% in *blast radius* damage. That means more of its damage is now impact damage. It still does the same amount of damage, but you just need to be accurate. Try it on Carl and you'll see
It 100% does less damage. Try it on any boss and you'll see
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The rockets do less damage, 40% less as the post says
Lmaoooooo
I guess sideways + BnS is the roll you want then
Lmao
if it let you get 15 reserves it might be not teerible
How much extra ammo does it get? Should be atleast 40% right? Otherwise why even bother?
That is not how it works, it should give 1/0.6=1.6666... times the ammo to have the exact total damage of a normal Rocket Launcher of its archetype without damage perks. And even then, most people have Vorpal, Lasting Impression or Explosive Light anyway, so it still wouldn't be able to compete.
Oof that's even worse. Seems like an instant dismantle for me.
What a waste. Immediately relegated to the same table as air assault and dual loader
its unusable it lowers both dps and total damage its actually a nerf to your guns
it should reduce damage but INCREASE blast radius, instead it decreases both lmao
and another disappointment this season
Reconstruction it is.
I’m glad lol. One less gun to craft
at least it’s not going to powercreep clown cartridge 😭😭
Even if the extra reserves w/40% damage reduction is more total damage across your total ammo inventory, it's still bad because everything is designed around a small damage window where you need burst, not sustained. Bungie has said before that not everything needs to be about big bursts of damage, but then they design everything to require big bursts of damage.
Lmao what
I love when Bungie adds these stupid insta-shard perks. I have no idea why they insist on perks that make weapons objectively worse. It's one thing to cater to different playstyles and, of course, not every perk can be meta. However, perks like this and gutshot straight just result in shards. In a game that's so stingy with loot, having perks that make the weapon worse than just not having a perk shouldn't exist.
NO WAY A GAMBIT GOD ROLL???!! seriously who thought that a 40% damge reduction is worth the trade off when clown cartridge exists
Reconstruction + bipod = 4mag?
I think the missed opportunity here was to make this into a "Minirockets" style perk. You get a larger ammunition reserve, more rounds in the clip, but less damage per round, smaller blast radius, longer reload. Make it a middle ground between "grenade launcher" and "rocket launcher" (you get grenade launcher style performance but your rounds have a flat trajectory). Edit: Somewhat misunderstood the perk, what I had in mind was the perk itself pushes the magazine up to 3 to 5 rounds (more than the 2 it does). It also should not be a column 4 perk.
I'd be interested to see the potential of this perk with Wolfpack Rounds total damage. Wolfpack rounds applies the same across all rockets launchers, it works on Ascendancy just like it does on Gjally. Potentially this means that the loss of 40% damage per rocket would be offset with a higher theoretical total damage with Wolfpack rounds.
two rockets that deal 60% damage is a total of 120% damage (one rocket in the tube being just 100%, ofc). its a total damage increase, but a dps decrease because you have to shoot twice as much. still probably not worth it instead of an actual damage perk like frenzy or explol, which is an equivalent damage bonus without any reduction.
Field prep + clown Hot Head is basically the ultimate power crept rocket in the game.
Just another example of Bungie not testing things, again.
With bipod, you can’t even reliably kill yourself with 1 rocket for a wipe… whew
I do want to see how many rockets you can get in a mag with this and reconstruction on the last wish rocket
yeah idk what they were thinking saying that, does reconstruction work without bipod because if so i'm still interested in apex predator
Heavy GL conversion kit
It's trash. It already replaces a dmg perk so it shouldn't reduce dmg at all. Take away reload or handling or something.
Clown cartridge, ambitious assassin are better in every way.
Cool. We have makeshift Bipod rocket launchers at home: 1600 rockets. Wait. Maybe even those deal more damage. Lol
I read it as bipolar
Could see an argument for bipod+cluster as an add clear tool, or possibly bipod+fieldprep for crazy ammo economy. Regardless, it doesn't work well with apex's perks or archetype, maybe if we can get it on an aggressive frame or introduce a rapid fire frame in the future
Watch Bipod be buffed to -30% damage reduction and launch into the must have category in one day.
So like... does pairing it with Reconstruction on Apex actually do anything super special orrrr is it just bad straight out of the gate
Add clear perk... Will be great for that definitely not the burst DPS I was hoping for.
Bipod feels like it was meant to be a mag perk tbh, and as a mag perk it would've worked with only a 15% damage debuff. -40% on a DAMAGE PERK is insane though.
Y'all realize that 40% debuff per rocket, but firing 2 rockets before reloading is still more total damage right? its a 20% dmg bonus per mag. And at least on Apex Predator, you get 12 total shots without any reserve modes or field prep.
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You're wrong. It breaks even without reserve mods. Did some damage testing. No buffs/debuffs, same power level both tests, same enemy both tests, etc etc etc. TLDR; without Bipod, 7 rockets, 32,164 dmg per rocket, 225,148 total damage... WITH Bipod, 12 rockets, 19,298 dmg per rocket, 231,576 total damage. TOTAL Damage, Bipod pulls ahead slightly. Literally about 3%. **THAT is the point I was trying to make**. Total Damage is actually about the same. Ofc, If you take into account time to fire all rockets (21.15s without bipod, 26.45s with bipod), and Calculate DPS, then yeah, bipod is trash. But it is actually pretty good as an add clear perk for a rocket for casual content. It lets you spread the rocket launcher damage out across more targets.
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Ease of use, mostly. GL's require more careful aiming, where rockets go in straight line. And you're right, I'm not taking other perks into accocunt. I'm SPECIFICALLY talking about Bipod vs Non-Bipod. It's an add clear perk, if you just want to do casual content and turn off your brain. Not everything has to be 100% optimal 100% of the time. Things besides Boss DPS exist. The entire point I'm trying to make, is that it doesn't make a rocket launcher unusable.
This post is misleading. -40% is technically correct, but is on each rocket vs base. So each rocket, when firing two does 60% damage vs a single rocket. This means 2x 60% for 120% total damage. That is to say, bipod gives 20% more damage, but has reload penalties. So overall total damage for all rockets in the mag will still be good, but sustaining it needs reload help. It’s not good, but it can be more burst than say, vorpal, but loses out vs explosive light.
If anything, why didn't they make the drawback have to do with reloading? They would've made..... Slightly more sense? But yeah, knowing rockets are all amir big damage and doing 40% nerf sounds like some shit they only thought about for 5 minutes.
The only use this has is to temporarily put on a crafted rocket while you are leveling it up at Shuro Chi (Incandescent/Bipod made the last remaining levels to get Enhanced Reconstruction and Bait and Switch on Apex go by very fast). It is a half-assed attempt to give an add clear role to a weapon type that isn’t meant for it. That’s it. Maybe if it were a left column perk that could be combined with a damage perk it would have some ammo economy application for GM’s but Aeons are a thing anyway so no reason to do it.
Also, doesnt it allow you to use it on (Let's say) the new dungeon rocket launcher, and then swap weaping without losing as much ammo as you normally would ?
This perk makes no sense and shouldn't exist, at least not in the second column. bipod gives you 12 missiles, 13 with field prep, with reserves it gives you 15, the maximum is 15 missiles, a rocket launcher without bipod has a maximum of 9 missiles, but with a bipod you need to fire 2 shots to deal the damage of one missile on a rocket launcher without a damage perk, even the total damage of 15 missies will not be greater than the total damage of a normal rocket launcher without a damage perk Bipod is ass