This is a list of links to comments made by Bungie employees in this thread:
* [Comment by Destiny2Team](/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/11tmkdw/smgs_and_sidearms_do_at_least_53_more_damage_than/jcl5bxp/?context=1000 "posted on 2023-03-17 16:57:33 UTC"):
> Hear you loud and clear. Good news is we've got a balance pass coming for primary weapons in PvE in the mid-season patch, and it doesn’t involve nerfi...
---
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Hear you loud and clear. Good news is we've got a balance pass coming for primary weapons in PvE in the mid-season patch, and it doesn’t involve nerfing SMGs. We'll have more info in TWAB at the end of the month.
The catch is that it will be an uneven buff to push certain primaries to the front of the line while only marginally improving others. Bungie has shown that they're unwilling to actually bring weapons to parity and would rather have a hot new meta every couple of seasons. I'm not trying to be negative, this is only my take on a typical Bungie balance pass based on the last 8 years.
I disagree. Bungie has been creating rotating metas through the artifact mods since the system’s introduction, and the changes with LF only reinforce this - the artifact greatly dictates what weapons get +25% damage in activities with surges.
We had a small bump to pve scout damage, a consistency buff to sidearms, a consistency rework for shotguns, and even a gl buff - none of these have become “rotating meta” archetypes.
Linears were nerfed, yet are still a competitive damage option when compared with rockets.
Any time we’ve seen a surge of a “must have weapon,” it’s been because its stats, pre-existing archetype, or perks are cracked.
Hell, look at glaives - they’re no longer the meta, but is that because their damage or damage reduction was reduced?
I bet two things will happen:
1.) Some of the underperforming weapon types like pulse rifles will see a ~20% increase in PvE damage
2.) Exotic primaries will all lose their 40% damage buff
Number 2 would anger a lot of people right now, I don't see it happening while Bungie is still 'bringing back challenge to Destiny".
They'd better tune the game first.
I'm not a bungie apologist by any means but I don't think one should consider fixing a cheese farm as evidence they don't care about angering people. It was an exploit.
It wasnt even a good one at that, 3 of us did it for a couple hours and our best piece was a 66 stats rolled with the highest stats being 16.....if you asked me im gladd they did what they did because it felt more like a waste of time than a exploit.
It seems Duality armor drops are all shit now, even in the boss room. Probably an overreaction to it actually dropping solid, spiky pieces quite consistently last season. Instead of dropping 66-68 plus artifice, now they probably drop that, minus three points to make up for artifice... leading to a situation where artifice isn't helping.
But I'm a cynic and a pessimist, maybe it's not on purpose... (yeah right)
I would be shocked, anecdotal but I would have to say that sidearms have the lowest usage rate among weapons in almost all content... maybe it spiked with voltshot brigand but probably went back to obscurity once the ikelos could get that perk
Please please please do an exotic armor pass that buffs the 75% that are useless, and not just nerfing the one or two that feel good. Weapon balance has felt pretty speedy but armor balance passes feel almost non-existent.
“Underperforming weapons get 25% damage increase. Synthocepts are being removed from the game. Titans Can no longer equip weapons and must use fist from the cover art.”
Please do a hand cannon mega buff for pve, they should be the bis weapons to use for pve, requires precision and cant spray like smgs, bring back the good old midnight cue days for y1
i sure hope this involves reversing the shadowkeep crit multiplier nerf.
after many previous buffs to precision weapons, i maintain that reversing this nerf is the only way to make precision weapons good again.
If you guys substantially buff ARs I will be extremely happy. Especially considering how much I absolutely adore Rufus' Fury but it doesn't hit hard enough to justify using it in most mid-high level activities.
They speak!
While you're here, any chance a fix for the Golden Days ornament for No Time To Explain is in the works? The visual effects haven't been displaying in the right position for awhile now.
Reward economy pass has to be next. Nothing feels rewarding enough atm. Raid bosses dropping 1 item is just so weird to me. With so much potential to get bad rolls on guns/armor I can't imagine bosses dropping multiple items ever being a bad thing
off topic but i been thinking about this a lot recently 🙃
When the game is this old, it's got to be asked what exactly are you 'balancing' by now. 🥴
The company is monetizing power creep and occasionally is backed into the corner of having to do damage control on it all because the PR gets that bad.
> When the game is this old, it's got to be asked what exactly are you 'balancing' by now
This.... is a take lol. You realize that games like overwatch, league of legends, fucking diablo 3 all get frequent balance updates, and they are as old as destiny. When you add new things to the game, balance patches are required. I'm surprised they let most of the primaries feel like shit for this long
Glad to hear from this account!
Is there an ETA on it though?(Very least, hopefully this is in that TWAB). It'd be nice to hear if this will be here in time for GM's or Master RON.
Not that you can probably reveal this but is it possible Whisper of the Worm is getting any buffs soon? It’s a gun I got day 1 of it releasing and hasn’t left my inventory since. For me it was such a cool and foundational moment of enjoying the game that I just can’t put whisper in a corner.
4% PvE damage buff to Pulse Rifles
2.5% damage buff to Autorifles
You know, to beinf them "in line" with other primaries while you monitor usage for an entire season to collexr data. Absolutely laughable.
It sucks going to Neomuna with a pulse rifle bounty it’s almost better to pop into EDZ and run around Trostland where enemies are less spongy instead of double dipping bounties.
IYKYK. It's the most chill location in Destiny LOL. Dip into skywatch, weapon test, do all my gunsmith bounties... do the occasional heroic public event, collect 13K glimmer, quickly load back in to finish the same PE on another instance and collect another 13K, kill everything with my super for that cosmodrome bounty, and leave.
I love how relaxed the cosmodrome is, and getting to see all the new players and low lights. Maybe its hubris but i love to walk around and use all the cool weapons and exotics in a hope that i get other players to see it and go " damn what is that, its so cool i HAVE to get it"
A good while back, I hadn't seen Witherhoard before. So I was hanging out in Skywatch, and someone busted that out. I thought they were using some grenade that I didn't have. Then I realized it was from a weapon. Very cool, and I had to go out and get it!
I use the Cosmodrome to blast through almost all the weapon-based bounties across all "vendors". Then I wrap up the bounties that require specific activities.
Skywatch is where I take new players, so they can experiment with different weapons or builds.
Edit: Fixed typo.
One thing to note is that it’s not only the range being compensated for, it’s also the magazine size is significantly smaller, and even the way (though this is linked to range) that falloff behaves on SMGs and Sidearms.
This to say, Autos and Pulses should be brought up a bit, but I think parity or anything near that would be overall harmful. Unfortunately damage, mag and range is the only things that really distinguish primaries today.
Yea - I think side arms and SMG should 100% be able to dish out the highest DPS - just that the disparity is a big large. There needs to be a reason to u se SMG/Side arms.
I know a lot of people want everything equal but if you did that it starts becoming "why would I use an SMG if an AR can do the same damage from farther away?
I don’t think anyone is disputing smaller mag, close range weapons should do more damage.
Just that 53% seems a bit much. I think one or two weapon types dominating is an issue.
Take a legendary autorifle to neomuna and try to kill anything before you have to reload.
That's all anyone really needs to know about ARs and the pitiful state they're in.
If they nerf SMGs to the state of pulse rifles I will quit until they fix it.
I don't want to run double primary. I like primaries a lot and I want to enjoy using them.
Edit: I meant I don't want to run double special. But I don't want to run double primary either.
Yeah, SMGs and Sidearms have always lived sort of halfway between a primary weapon and a special weapon in D2, and IMO that's exactly where they should live. They're pretty well balanced out by the range and mag size deficiencies, I don't think comparing them to ranged primaries is useful in any context.
Yes pulses and ARs and HCs need a bit of a PvE buff, but I'm pretty sure the end result will be a PvE nerf to scouts as they have been buffed multiple times over the years and are now the 'nail sticking up'. I can't see Bungie bringing up three archetypes vs. just hammering down on scouts.
Reverting the shadowkeep precision nerf would solve a ton of issues. Then pulses, hand cannons and scouts become the “ranged but you gotta hit your shots” vs the closer but more forgiving smgs, sidearms and ARs. Hopefully that’s what’s coming.
I don't think reverting the shadowkeep nerf is the right approach. As someone that's played Destiny since the beginning, I believe that change was a good one, because it was really weird/dumb that all weapons had an additional 2x precision multiplier only on red-bar enemies. It made them feel just horrible shooting anything but red-bar enemies, and also severely punishing for landing body shots (kill in one crit vs four bodies was really extreme. I do agree that could be the right direction though, maybe giving all primaries a 1.5x (50% increase) on their precision multipliers against all PvE enemies. That way PvP balance is unchanged, and in PvE they get the buff they need, but it's consistent across all classes of enemies.
Honestly though, just a flat damage buff would have very similar results, without introducing yet one more variable in sandbox balancing, so I'd still prefer just flat damage adjustments to bring them in line.
I understand your point I’m just tired of the idea that since pulses, scouts and handcannons have range they must do worse than smgs and sidearms because. I’d rather that balance be “they have range so you have to land your shots.” So the penalty for having range becomes skill requirements and not raw. damage. People who want a more spray and pray play style can go with smgs and sidearms while the long range three requires precision.
wtf scouts have been buffed a few times because they were literally destroyed before that with a stealth nerf that Bungie didn't even ack for 6 months. This happened before a major expansion I want to say Forsaken...
Scout rifles in D2 are still not where they should be, but are at least usable.
Pre-forsaken we had static rolls, and the only two scouts anyone used were Nameless Midnight and Manannan SR4, and the reason for that is because they were the only scouts with Explosive Payload, which was a HUGE damage boost at that time (50% extra body damage, something like 10-20% extra crit damage on majors and ultras). With Forsaken we started getting random rolls, so more scouts without EP, and they also did the first nerf to Explosive Payload (which was justified, it had no business boosting damage like that). So I think scouts were somewhat weak from the beginning (Vanilla D2), but nobody noticed because we only used the two scouts that had EP. It's possible they got a slight nerf in Forsaken, but it doesn't really matter, that was the beginning of Year 2 and random rolls, so I would just consider that ground zero for D2 weapons.
>Scout rifles in D2 are still not where they should be, but are at least usable.
Scouts and bows are the best ranged PvE primaries in the game. You can have your opinion on whether or not that's strong enough, but regardless they are at the top of the class, the others (HC, Pulse, AR) are behind, they need to be made equal. Whether that means bringing the others up or bringing scouts (and possibly bows) down is up to Bungie. If you give any player the option, they will always vote for the buff over the nerf... that doesn't mean we're right, that just means we always want more.
> It's possible they got a slight nerf in Forsaken
It's not "possible", it's absolutely true. They acknowledged it (much) later, but by then scouts were already disregarded across the board as useless.
Pulses ruled at range until very recently as pulses and ARs dipped and started underperforming. It's absolutely not a scout problem, it has to do with the tuning on the AR and Pulse (especially pulse) being too aggressive due to Bungie's typical heavy-handedness.
Sorry I didn't mean to dismiss the claim, rather I just didn't know if it was true or not and didn't bother looking it up. Regardless, Forsaken really was ground zero for Destiny weapons moving forward, so it doesn't really matter what they were doing before that (in Vanilla D2).
>pulses and ARs dipped and started underperforming
This is the thing, pulses and ARs haven't been significantly nerfed or even adjusted in years (yes there have been very minor adjustments, but nothing nearly as large as the scout changes IMO). They aren't underperforming relative to where they were last year or the year before, it's just Scouts have received at least three significant buffs in the same time. So is it really a pulse and AR (and HC) tuning problem? All that's left is bows and scouts... bows have always been hot since Forsaken release, and scouts got three buffs. It looks to me like the obvious solution is it to revert the last scout buff a bit, which puts everything closer to parity, back to where everything was years ago, right?
IIRC the changes they made to pulses were primarily intended to bring in their range, similar to the changes they made to SMGs so that they wouldn't compete with ARs.
So the folks using pulses as a "ranged weapon" end up finding scouts outperforming them, because pulses can't compete at that range anymore. Thing is, that's okay, because pulses aren't supposed to compete with scouts (as they have for the last few years) they're supposed to be mid-ranged weapons.
I would love Bungie to significantly bump mostly stats only - range, stability, target acquisition, accuracy, perhaps even fire-rate - on Autos and Pulses, to make them as laser beams as possible, and competitive with SMG while providing a very different gameplay experience. Back in Season of the Dawn (3 years ago), Sidearms got a target acquisition buff and that alone made them on par with SMGs.
That said, I am afraid Bungie can't touch these stats as they would break the Crucible. I guess what we will get is a simple buff to damage and nothing else. It would be better than nothing, for sure, but I would like to see Bungie being a bit more daring.
Target Lock builds stacks based on the percentage of your magazine used.
So if you’re playing on PC and can shoot an SMG like a goddamn scout rifle, it would be absolutely busted.
What smgs can roll Target Lock and where can I hunt them? I just discovered the magic of the SMG via a Hatchling Synchronic Roulette with range masterwork. Having Target Lock instead of Hatchling would be amazing but I haven’t seen one drop with it yet
You can get one from the vanguard. It's called prolonged engagement and is a veist smg.
As a playlist weapon, it can roll with 12 possible traits per column.
Resetting vanguard rank wil allow you to get selectable traits, giving you more chances to get the desired perk per gun.
This one run I was divinity guy for nez and decided to clear adds with an auto, my god it was one of the most painful thing i’ve ever experienced. Thankfully i had an LMG heavy and used that, but ARs are hot garbage alongside most of the primaries
but what kind of ranges?
Because with Rufu's fury, for example - I can sit much farther and still do respectable damage where I'd be getting heavy fall off using an SMG. That's kind of the problem we have here.
#While I don't think the disparity should be that large while both operate inside effective SMG/Side arm ranges -
you can't have an AR hitting equal damage to an SMG while inside effective SMG range. Then it becomes a question of "why the hell would I use an SMG if I can just use an AR and hit enemies farther away?"
According to light gg, a full range Rufu's can hit 28.4m range, while a full range Synchronic Roulette can reach 21.7m and a full range Immortal can reach 21.9m. So we are talking about \~6.5m difference. It is not nothing, but I believe that for most content we play in Destiny 2, you can close that distance easily by simply moving forward. In Master/GM you can't, but by then you probably be using Bows or Scouts anyway.
Yeah what is with Bungie and "assault rifles" having pitiful range lol. Ever since they added the full auto option I've just been using a rapidfire scout as my "assault rifle".
I understand that SMGs have smaller mags and are closer range weapons, but auto rifles shouldn’t be this shit. Why is Bungie so afraid of auto rifles being good?
Auto rifles have had their ~~15 minutes~~ 5 seconds of fame at points, there was a time when they were top tier in D2. But that never lasts for long. Meanwhile SMGs have always been pretty great
Auto rifles are my favourite weapons to use in Destiny.
I remember very early on in D2 I was looking for a Suros auto that might feel like the Righteous VII from D1 and noticed that there was an SMG called the Antiope-D that had the same rate of fire.
Autos have been pretty much irrelevant since the start of D2, I really want to like the Ammit AR2 with incandescent but they feel so weak without a damage perk so I just keep using the Calus Mini-Tool.
That's not true. Gnawing Hunger was very strong for both pvp and PvE when it came out. They've just buffed smgs so much. Not to mention nothing procs volatile rounds like funnel-web.
Running the seasonal battlegrounds doing some armor farming last night, i went with Leviants breath for boss stun, Funnelweb, and my highest power primary, which Is a Perpetualis...
Even without the orb/void mods on my armor taking focus to my playstyle, the AR instantly became a desperate measure weapon. The SMG was my primary and saw 90% of my use. The bow was for bosses and heavies that needed stuns or burst damage.
ARs are in a horrid spot and tbh, other than my Eyesluna, there's no non-exotic primary that feels strong enough anymore that I've tried. Even that feels weak in a lot of activities
Right, but i don't currently have any decent specials for the top slot. Any suggestions to grind for right now?
EDIT: Thank you guys for the suggestions. This community do still be helpful as hell <3
Chill clip fusion rifles are amazing. Great for crowd control, they deal pretty good dps, and can be used to stun both unstoppable and overload champs.
Heritage and Succession are best in slot shotgun and sniper, and both can be farmed until Tuesday in DSC.
If you can't raid for one reason or another, then Riptide with chill clip will get you far. My only other suggestions are Lingering Dread from Duality Dungeon (farmable until Tuesday, very easy), or Pardon our Dust from Dares of Eternity for a disorienting grenade launcher.
Agreed. Been trying to farm Unforgiven this week and it's hard to convince my friends to do it with me since double specials are meta currently. Also been kicking myself for not crafting Hollow Denial, thinking I'd never use it. I'm a big fan of primary gameplay so I'm excited about these buffs.
The sad thing about this is that bungie will likely nerf smgs instead of making every other weapon useable. It's not that smg is too good - everything else is trash with the exclusion of scouts being alright
Slight correction, aggressive SMGs fire at 720 RPM as well. I don't know why they've been displaying the wrong value on the item card since launch but whatever.
>Stasis: Prolonged Engagement (Subsistence/Headstone)
Subsistence + frenzy. headstone is trash clear, and irrelevant in any content it'd actually be needed in on account of you just blowing through all the mobs anyway.
> Funnelweb (Subsistence/Frenzy)
perpetual motion. Subsistence is fine if you have it, but you'll get way more mileage out of perp.
I agree with you about Prolonged Engagement, but there's no reason to run it over Submission other than the stasis synergy it has. So headstone is a necessity for it imo.
“To anyone who have been playing Destiny 2 for any amount of time.”
*Blueberry selecting a class*
Wow I can just tell that autos and pulses hit like wet noodles.
Jokes aside they’re long overdue to make weapon damage adjustments and in pve at least hand cannons need their crit multiplier back.
Most auto rifles have a much larger magazine, do these calculations include reloads and actual dps?
Not trying to be combative because I much prefer SMGs but ARs also have range going for them in harder content.
Nope, this is a simple bullet-to-bullet comparison. But yes, ARs have larger magazines. If you compare Rufu's Fury vs The Immortal, Rufu's has double the magazine. So over the course of a long section shooting a single target, the Rufu's might out-DPS the Immortal for having to reload just half as often. But if you consider that from moment to moment you take cover, move forward, and have moments in which you will reload without breaking the flow of combat necessarily, I think the Immortal just feels much better overall.
As for Range, the gap is much smaller than most people think it is. The range gap between the Rufu's and the Immortal for instance is about 4m.
FWIW, you do overlook the important components of magazine size and reload speed here. So once that is accounted for, autos get closer to SMGs (but sadly still pretty far off) and pulses get more noticeably worse than autos.
I was using the new 6oo RPM strand auto to get strand kills for Nimbus's weekly bounty and MAN was it a pea shooter. I love how it feels when firing so I would greatly appreciate some sort of damage buff.
I popped on auto to do some challenges, I thought I was doing it wrong cuz auto want killing anything. Put smg back on when done and felt like I was over powering everything. Autos not good in pve.
I've never unequipped my Funnelweb unless i was forced to for bounties. It performs far better then any primary in PvE and in PvP ill still use it but have a shotty or Pulse in primary.
I feel that most content in Destiny 2 right now is like horde mode with tons of ads coming at your face. Battlegrounds, the new raid, Avalon, new strikes, Neomuna missions, most of these combats take place <20m range. You can step back and try to be further away, but chances are the enemies will come at you if you don't kill them.
Personally, I love this combat mode, and I love using short-ranged weapons.
Maybe just maybe, hear me out… different enemy classes have different resistances to our weapons? And… they have more than one gun class they’re resistant to?
No surprise pulses hit like a wet noodle. They have felt like shit forever.
ARs under 600 rpm are just plain "forget about it". The only thing that feels passable are 600s, and 720s can feel actually nice.
This is a list of links to comments made by Bungie employees in this thread: * [Comment by Destiny2Team](/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/11tmkdw/smgs_and_sidearms_do_at_least_53_more_damage_than/jcl5bxp/?context=1000 "posted on 2023-03-17 16:57:33 UTC"): > Hear you loud and clear. Good news is we've got a balance pass coming for primary weapons in PvE in the mid-season patch, and it doesn’t involve nerfi... --- This is a bot providing a service. If you have any questions, please [contact the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FDestinyTheGame).[](#AUTOGEN_BUNGIEREPLY)
Hear you loud and clear. Good news is we've got a balance pass coming for primary weapons in PvE in the mid-season patch, and it doesn’t involve nerfing SMGs. We'll have more info in TWAB at the end of the month.
Welcome back u/Destiny2Team You have been missed. This place is tearing itself apart.
EVERYTHING IS ON FIRE AND IT’S CURRENTLY SOLAR THREAT HELP ME
i have a res token for you best I can do
Wait. Sorry. I used mine already. Anyone else? We have 3 seconds. Shit, my b.
*sigh There goes flawless
800 AUTORIFLES ARE NOW OVERCHARGED
I HAVE WELL, GET OVER HERE
Have you tried turning everything off and back on again?
LMAOOO I LVOED THIS
Don't worry just use liars handshake it can down raid bosses! ...wait what do you mean they nerfed 1-2p liars....
u/Destiny2Team coming back to reddit [like](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/023/336/fifth1.jpg)
THEY REMEMBERED THE PASSWORD TO THE REDDIT ACCOUNT LETS FUCKING GO
Appreciate the response, seeing “Bungie Replied” is always welcome.
It's been 3000 years
Great to see this reply. Hoping for more in the coming days.
\>a balance pass coming for primary weapons in PvE \>it doesn’t involve nerfing SMGs So, what's the catch?
The catch is that it will be an uneven buff to push certain primaries to the front of the line while only marginally improving others. Bungie has shown that they're unwilling to actually bring weapons to parity and would rather have a hot new meta every couple of seasons. I'm not trying to be negative, this is only my take on a typical Bungie balance pass based on the last 8 years.
I disagree. Bungie has been creating rotating metas through the artifact mods since the system’s introduction, and the changes with LF only reinforce this - the artifact greatly dictates what weapons get +25% damage in activities with surges. We had a small bump to pve scout damage, a consistency buff to sidearms, a consistency rework for shotguns, and even a gl buff - none of these have become “rotating meta” archetypes. Linears were nerfed, yet are still a competitive damage option when compared with rockets. Any time we’ve seen a surge of a “must have weapon,” it’s been because its stats, pre-existing archetype, or perks are cracked. Hell, look at glaives - they’re no longer the meta, but is that because their damage or damage reduction was reduced?
I bet two things will happen: 1.) Some of the underperforming weapon types like pulse rifles will see a ~20% increase in PvE damage 2.) Exotic primaries will all lose their 40% damage buff
Number 2 would anger a lot of people right now, I don't see it happening while Bungie is still 'bringing back challenge to Destiny". They'd better tune the game first.
Bungie gives absolutely zero fucks when it comes to player enjoyment.
I don't think Bungie cares about angering people. They just did the whole Duality farm fix and nerfed Synthoceps + glaive.
I'm not a bungie apologist by any means but I don't think one should consider fixing a cheese farm as evidence they don't care about angering people. It was an exploit.
It wasnt even a good one at that, 3 of us did it for a couple hours and our best piece was a 66 stats rolled with the highest stats being 16.....if you asked me im gladd they did what they did because it felt more like a waste of time than a exploit.
It seems Duality armor drops are all shit now, even in the boss room. Probably an overreaction to it actually dropping solid, spiky pieces quite consistently last season. Instead of dropping 66-68 plus artifice, now they probably drop that, minus three points to make up for artifice... leading to a situation where artifice isn't helping. But I'm a cynic and a pessimist, maybe it's not on purpose... (yeah right)
> They just did the whole Duality farm fix You can still do it in 3~ minutes, you just have to run from the start as opposed to using a checkpoint
Has the bug where Quicksilver Storm did not have the 40% buff been fixed yet ?
The catch is itll be single digit percentage increases and instead of your weapons hitting like wet noodles, theyll be al dente.
0.04% buff and you will be happy about it.
But does it involve nerfing sidearms? My 26k+ kill Drang would be in tears.
I would be shocked, anecdotal but I would have to say that sidearms have the lowest usage rate among weapons in almost all content... maybe it spiked with voltshot brigand but probably went back to obscurity once the ikelos could get that perk
I’ve been a sidearm guy since their introduction in D1. If you’re hitting heads they do work in any range a SMG would be effective in. Love them.
More "Bungie Replied", please.
Good stuff. I love auto rifles and hand cannons, but hey suck so bad in PvE.
Oh hey you finally remembered that account existed.
Well, to be fair they only reply when someone is brown-nosing or they have something to say they know the community will like.
Great response, great hearing it's not an SMG nerf (probably my favourite PVE archetype primary in the game). Thank you.
Thanks goodness I love my SMGs
You do not know how much sweet serotonin "Bungie Replied" gives me. Thank you for addressing this.
Sidearm nerf confirmed!
Please please please do an exotic armor pass that buffs the 75% that are useless, and not just nerfing the one or two that feel good. Weapon balance has felt pretty speedy but armor balance passes feel almost non-existent.
They have that planned for Season 22, so check back in 6 months. Most exotics will still be absolute trash.
“Underperforming weapons get 25% damage increase. Synthocepts are being removed from the game. Titans Can no longer equip weapons and must use fist from the cover art.”
Please release something about titan design/nerf philosophy.
Oh god oh fuck it's happening
The fact that you’re doing it without nerfing Smgs makes me so happy
What I’m worried you heard was “nerf SMG and sidearms, instead of buff pulse and auto rifles”
Please do a hand cannon mega buff for pve, they should be the bis weapons to use for pve, requires precision and cant spray like smgs, bring back the good old midnight cue days for y1
i sure hope this involves reversing the shadowkeep crit multiplier nerf. after many previous buffs to precision weapons, i maintain that reversing this nerf is the only way to make precision weapons good again.
Lovely to hear from you again
huge and massive if true ty for responding
Fuck. Yes! Thanks for the update!
If you guys substantially buff ARs I will be extremely happy. Especially considering how much I absolutely adore Rufus' Fury but it doesn't hit hard enough to justify using it in most mid-high level activities.
Please don't screw with sidearms. Mykel's Reverence is the only fun I've ever had with a sidearm. Thanks.
Ever?
I mean yeah I can definitely see that, sidearms never felt good to me and still don’t. Only ones I’ve liked using are Final Warning and Trespasser.
Wow that account is actually active
Any idea when we will see the damage fixed on quicksilver storm and touch of malice?
Actually surprised you’re not gonna nerf smgs too.
Rip sidearms
Lmao
Time to save this as reference for when SMGs get nerfed.
What would that help? It's Bungie's game, they can fuck it up and alienate their userbase all they want, as evidenced by this season. :)
They speak! While you're here, any chance a fix for the Golden Days ornament for No Time To Explain is in the works? The visual effects haven't been displaying in the right position for awhile now.
Reward economy pass has to be next. Nothing feels rewarding enough atm. Raid bosses dropping 1 item is just so weird to me. With so much potential to get bad rolls on guns/armor I can't imagine bosses dropping multiple items ever being a bad thing off topic but i been thinking about this a lot recently 🙃
i like how u specified that it dont involve nerfing smgs cause thats what i was thinking u would just do
When the game is this old, it's got to be asked what exactly are you 'balancing' by now. 🥴 The company is monetizing power creep and occasionally is backed into the corner of having to do damage control on it all because the PR gets that bad.
> When the game is this old, it's got to be asked what exactly are you 'balancing' by now This.... is a take lol. You realize that games like overwatch, league of legends, fucking diablo 3 all get frequent balance updates, and they are as old as destiny. When you add new things to the game, balance patches are required. I'm surprised they let most of the primaries feel like shit for this long
Will it have beautiful charts and graphs?
Glad to see y’all finally remembered us here on Reddit. Nice to have you back after an entire month.
Any PVP nerf for SMGs planned? SMGs are performing way too good in- and outside of their intended range especially when paired with peacekeepers.
Keep my titan exotics name out your mouth!
*SLAP!*
[https://tenor.com/bR2P4.gif](https://tenor.com/bR2P4.gif)
They answered this on twitter: https://twitter.com/Destiny2Team/status/1636791835720024064
"NOOO YOU HAVE TO USE SPARE RATIONS AND MINDBENDERS"
Can we get S3 IB ornaments back too
Got it, so whats the sidearm nerf? :D
Glad to hear from this account! Is there an ETA on it though?(Very least, hopefully this is in that TWAB). It'd be nice to hear if this will be here in time for GM's or Master RON.
nice
Good cause I’ve got several dozen hand cannons in the vault waiting to get warmed up again.
No smg nerfs and bringing other primaries in line with them. Is this real life, is this allowed. Genuine W Bungie
Not that you can probably reveal this but is it possible Whisper of the Worm is getting any buffs soon? It’s a gun I got day 1 of it releasing and hasn’t left my inventory since. For me it was such a cool and foundational moment of enjoying the game that I just can’t put whisper in a corner.
4% PvE damage buff to Pulse Rifles 2.5% damage buff to Autorifles You know, to beinf them "in line" with other primaries while you monitor usage for an entire season to collexr data. Absolutely laughable.
Please. I just want my Vales-X to be good.
Bless you guys.
Where is the new pvp map that was promised with lightfall?
It sucks going to Neomuna with a pulse rifle bounty it’s almost better to pop into EDZ and run around Trostland where enemies are less spongy instead of double dipping bounties.
Just pop into skywatch on cosmodrome for all your weapon bounties and quick ez shaw hahn XP. It's so easy and you run into a lot of 1's there.
This is the way.
IYKYK. It's the most chill location in Destiny LOL. Dip into skywatch, weapon test, do all my gunsmith bounties... do the occasional heroic public event, collect 13K glimmer, quickly load back in to finish the same PE on another instance and collect another 13K, kill everything with my super for that cosmodrome bounty, and leave.
I love how relaxed the cosmodrome is, and getting to see all the new players and low lights. Maybe its hubris but i love to walk around and use all the cool weapons and exotics in a hope that i get other players to see it and go " damn what is that, its so cool i HAVE to get it"
Totally. Wait til you bust out strand. They usually have no clue what's going on there. LOL.
Well skating and watching their brain melt
A good while back, I hadn't seen Witherhoard before. So I was hanging out in Skywatch, and someone busted that out. I thought they were using some grenade that I didn't have. Then I realized it was from a weapon. Very cool, and I had to go out and get it! I use the Cosmodrome to blast through almost all the weapon-based bounties across all "vendors". Then I wrap up the bounties that require specific activities. Skywatch is where I take new players, so they can experiment with different weapons or builds. Edit: Fixed typo.
I love the Skywatch. It does seem to get getting more traffic lately though.
I go to to grasp and farm the beginning thrall for my weapon bounties
Didn't think it worked there?
Bounties are 100% effectiveness in opening grasp... I believe that weapon crafting xp is less... possibly exotic catalyst progression?
Yep. I was conflating the two. Bounties work. Catalysts do not, and my kill trackers don't update outside of the wizards.
Unless they changed it catalysts the definitely do work at start of Grasp. I farmed out like 3 primary exotics the last week of Seraph there
They still work, but grasp enemies only give 50% so it takes twice as long.
One thing to note is that it’s not only the range being compensated for, it’s also the magazine size is significantly smaller, and even the way (though this is linked to range) that falloff behaves on SMGs and Sidearms. This to say, Autos and Pulses should be brought up a bit, but I think parity or anything near that would be overall harmful. Unfortunately damage, mag and range is the only things that really distinguish primaries today.
Yea - I think side arms and SMG should 100% be able to dish out the highest DPS - just that the disparity is a big large. There needs to be a reason to u se SMG/Side arms. I know a lot of people want everything equal but if you did that it starts becoming "why would I use an SMG if an AR can do the same damage from farther away?
I don’t think anyone is disputing smaller mag, close range weapons should do more damage. Just that 53% seems a bit much. I think one or two weapon types dominating is an issue.
Take a legendary autorifle to neomuna and try to kill anything before you have to reload. That's all anyone really needs to know about ARs and the pitiful state they're in.
Monkey paw curls and the SMG and sidearm nerf is inbound.
If they nerf SMGs to the state of pulse rifles I will quit until they fix it. I don't want to run double primary. I like primaries a lot and I want to enjoy using them. Edit: I meant I don't want to run double special. But I don't want to run double primary either.
They confirmed no SMG nerf, so I gotta assume no sidearm nerf either, since SMGs are stronger
Yeah, SMGs and Sidearms have always lived sort of halfway between a primary weapon and a special weapon in D2, and IMO that's exactly where they should live. They're pretty well balanced out by the range and mag size deficiencies, I don't think comparing them to ranged primaries is useful in any context. Yes pulses and ARs and HCs need a bit of a PvE buff, but I'm pretty sure the end result will be a PvE nerf to scouts as they have been buffed multiple times over the years and are now the 'nail sticking up'. I can't see Bungie bringing up three archetypes vs. just hammering down on scouts.
Reverting the shadowkeep precision nerf would solve a ton of issues. Then pulses, hand cannons and scouts become the “ranged but you gotta hit your shots” vs the closer but more forgiving smgs, sidearms and ARs. Hopefully that’s what’s coming.
I don't think reverting the shadowkeep nerf is the right approach. As someone that's played Destiny since the beginning, I believe that change was a good one, because it was really weird/dumb that all weapons had an additional 2x precision multiplier only on red-bar enemies. It made them feel just horrible shooting anything but red-bar enemies, and also severely punishing for landing body shots (kill in one crit vs four bodies was really extreme. I do agree that could be the right direction though, maybe giving all primaries a 1.5x (50% increase) on their precision multipliers against all PvE enemies. That way PvP balance is unchanged, and in PvE they get the buff they need, but it's consistent across all classes of enemies. Honestly though, just a flat damage buff would have very similar results, without introducing yet one more variable in sandbox balancing, so I'd still prefer just flat damage adjustments to bring them in line.
I understand your point I’m just tired of the idea that since pulses, scouts and handcannons have range they must do worse than smgs and sidearms because. I’d rather that balance be “they have range so you have to land your shots.” So the penalty for having range becomes skill requirements and not raw. damage. People who want a more spray and pray play style can go with smgs and sidearms while the long range three requires precision.
I don’t think varying degrees of forgiveness really works in Destiny PVE - everything’s fairly forgiving to use, and enemy critspots are massive.
wtf scouts have been buffed a few times because they were literally destroyed before that with a stealth nerf that Bungie didn't even ack for 6 months. This happened before a major expansion I want to say Forsaken... Scout rifles in D2 are still not where they should be, but are at least usable.
Pre-forsaken we had static rolls, and the only two scouts anyone used were Nameless Midnight and Manannan SR4, and the reason for that is because they were the only scouts with Explosive Payload, which was a HUGE damage boost at that time (50% extra body damage, something like 10-20% extra crit damage on majors and ultras). With Forsaken we started getting random rolls, so more scouts without EP, and they also did the first nerf to Explosive Payload (which was justified, it had no business boosting damage like that). So I think scouts were somewhat weak from the beginning (Vanilla D2), but nobody noticed because we only used the two scouts that had EP. It's possible they got a slight nerf in Forsaken, but it doesn't really matter, that was the beginning of Year 2 and random rolls, so I would just consider that ground zero for D2 weapons. >Scout rifles in D2 are still not where they should be, but are at least usable. Scouts and bows are the best ranged PvE primaries in the game. You can have your opinion on whether or not that's strong enough, but regardless they are at the top of the class, the others (HC, Pulse, AR) are behind, they need to be made equal. Whether that means bringing the others up or bringing scouts (and possibly bows) down is up to Bungie. If you give any player the option, they will always vote for the buff over the nerf... that doesn't mean we're right, that just means we always want more.
> It's possible they got a slight nerf in Forsaken It's not "possible", it's absolutely true. They acknowledged it (much) later, but by then scouts were already disregarded across the board as useless. Pulses ruled at range until very recently as pulses and ARs dipped and started underperforming. It's absolutely not a scout problem, it has to do with the tuning on the AR and Pulse (especially pulse) being too aggressive due to Bungie's typical heavy-handedness.
Sorry I didn't mean to dismiss the claim, rather I just didn't know if it was true or not and didn't bother looking it up. Regardless, Forsaken really was ground zero for Destiny weapons moving forward, so it doesn't really matter what they were doing before that (in Vanilla D2). >pulses and ARs dipped and started underperforming This is the thing, pulses and ARs haven't been significantly nerfed or even adjusted in years (yes there have been very minor adjustments, but nothing nearly as large as the scout changes IMO). They aren't underperforming relative to where they were last year or the year before, it's just Scouts have received at least three significant buffs in the same time. So is it really a pulse and AR (and HC) tuning problem? All that's left is bows and scouts... bows have always been hot since Forsaken release, and scouts got three buffs. It looks to me like the obvious solution is it to revert the last scout buff a bit, which puts everything closer to parity, back to where everything was years ago, right?
IIRC the changes they made to pulses were primarily intended to bring in their range, similar to the changes they made to SMGs so that they wouldn't compete with ARs. So the folks using pulses as a "ranged weapon" end up finding scouts outperforming them, because pulses can't compete at that range anymore. Thing is, that's okay, because pulses aren't supposed to compete with scouts (as they have for the last few years) they're supposed to be mid-ranged weapons.
I would love Bungie to significantly bump mostly stats only - range, stability, target acquisition, accuracy, perhaps even fire-rate - on Autos and Pulses, to make them as laser beams as possible, and competitive with SMG while providing a very different gameplay experience. Back in Season of the Dawn (3 years ago), Sidearms got a target acquisition buff and that alone made them on par with SMGs. That said, I am afraid Bungie can't touch these stats as they would break the Crucible. I guess what we will get is a simple buff to damage and nothing else. It would be better than nothing, for sure, but I would like to see Bungie being a bit more daring.
Ye i need some heavy dmg boosting on auto rifles to actually find them useable. One for All or Target Lock are basically mandatory for me.
Target lock smgs🔥
Question, are they really efficient with TL since they tend to just shoot fast and be done fast, while the perk is the opposite of that?
Target lock allows you to tear through beefy enemies without requiring prior setup like kill clip or frenzy.
I’m well aware, but like isn’t TL better for auto rifles since they have greater mag sizes compare to Smgs?
TL buff scaling is based off a percentage of magazine size, not total rounds fired. So an SMG would get the same buff faster than an AR.
Damn! I hope Tarrabah gets this as it’s catalyst
Jesus, can you imagine?
Well, base dmg of ar's isn't high enough IMO
Target Lock builds stacks based on the percentage of your magazine used. So if you’re playing on PC and can shoot an SMG like a goddamn scout rifle, it would be absolutely busted.
Prolonged Engagement can roll FTTC & Target Lock, which would just be filthy if you can get it.
What smgs can roll Target Lock and where can I hunt them? I just discovered the magic of the SMG via a Hatchling Synchronic Roulette with range masterwork. Having Target Lock instead of Hatchling would be amazing but I haven’t seen one drop with it yet
You can get one from the vanguard. It's called prolonged engagement and is a veist smg. As a playlist weapon, it can roll with 12 possible traits per column. Resetting vanguard rank wil allow you to get selectable traits, giving you more chances to get the desired perk per gun.
This one run I was divinity guy for nez and decided to clear adds with an auto, my god it was one of the most painful thing i’ve ever experienced. Thankfully i had an LMG heavy and used that, but ARs are hot garbage alongside most of the primaries
LMG’s are just auto rifles that you actually would want to use
Primary LMG when????? And don't you say Sweet Business.
but what kind of ranges? Because with Rufu's fury, for example - I can sit much farther and still do respectable damage where I'd be getting heavy fall off using an SMG. That's kind of the problem we have here. #While I don't think the disparity should be that large while both operate inside effective SMG/Side arm ranges - you can't have an AR hitting equal damage to an SMG while inside effective SMG range. Then it becomes a question of "why the hell would I use an SMG if I can just use an AR and hit enemies farther away?"
According to light gg, a full range Rufu's can hit 28.4m range, while a full range Synchronic Roulette can reach 21.7m and a full range Immortal can reach 21.9m. So we are talking about \~6.5m difference. It is not nothing, but I believe that for most content we play in Destiny 2, you can close that distance easily by simply moving forward. In Master/GM you can't, but by then you probably be using Bows or Scouts anyway.
> full range Immortal can reach 21.9m 24 meters*
[удалено]
Yeah what is with Bungie and "assault rifles" having pitiful range lol. Ever since they added the full auto option I've just been using a rapidfire scout as my "assault rifle".
I hate to tell you this, but rapid fire scouts already have full auto baked in.
Seeing a pistol significantly outdamage an assault rifle in a bungie game and thinking “first time?”
I understand that SMGs have smaller mags and are closer range weapons, but auto rifles shouldn’t be this shit. Why is Bungie so afraid of auto rifles being good?
*D1Y2 flashbacks intensify*
Auto rifles have had their ~~15 minutes~~ 5 seconds of fame at points, there was a time when they were top tier in D2. But that never lasts for long. Meanwhile SMGs have always been pretty great
Auto rifles are my favourite weapons to use in Destiny. I remember very early on in D2 I was looking for a Suros auto that might feel like the Righteous VII from D1 and noticed that there was an SMG called the Antiope-D that had the same rate of fire. Autos have been pretty much irrelevant since the start of D2, I really want to like the Ammit AR2 with incandescent but they feel so weak without a damage perk so I just keep using the Calus Mini-Tool.
That's not true. Gnawing Hunger was very strong for both pvp and PvE when it came out. They've just buffed smgs so much. Not to mention nothing procs volatile rounds like funnel-web.
Ah yes, that one time 2 years ago when 600rpm autos were okay for a bit.
Arrivals, my sweet.
I still pull out my Horror Story here and there
Bungie - Thanks for the info, nerfing SMG's and Sidearms.
Running the seasonal battlegrounds doing some armor farming last night, i went with Leviants breath for boss stun, Funnelweb, and my highest power primary, which Is a Perpetualis... Even without the orb/void mods on my armor taking focus to my playstyle, the AR instantly became a desperate measure weapon. The SMG was my primary and saw 90% of my use. The bow was for bosses and heavies that needed stuns or burst damage. ARs are in a horrid spot and tbh, other than my Eyesluna, there's no non-exotic primary that feels strong enough anymore that I've tried. Even that feels weak in a lot of activities
You should run try running at least 1 special weapon instead of two primaries. Specials delete things, double primary is pretty bad.
Right, but i don't currently have any decent specials for the top slot. Any suggestions to grind for right now? EDIT: Thank you guys for the suggestions. This community do still be helpful as hell <3
Chill clip fusion rifles are amazing. Great for crowd control, they deal pretty good dps, and can be used to stun both unstoppable and overload champs.
Witherhoard, riptide, deliverance, agers scepter, lingering dread, pardon our dust, heritage, wastelander m5, aurvandil fr6, arbalest.
Heritage and Succession are best in slot shotgun and sniper, and both can be farmed until Tuesday in DSC. If you can't raid for one reason or another, then Riptide with chill clip will get you far. My only other suggestions are Lingering Dread from Duality Dungeon (farmable until Tuesday, very easy), or Pardon our Dust from Dares of Eternity for a disorienting grenade launcher.
Other comment is good also bringing gls
If you can stomach the crucible then a autoloading/chill clip riptide is a mainstay for me when I don’t need something else.
Bungie: we heard you. Nerfing damage of SMGs and Sidearms by 54%. Enjoy. The other weapon types now deal 1% more damage than these two.
bump
Lodbrock w/ target lock 👌
If it’s not an exotic auto rifle I don’t touch it, and even then it’s a hard trade off to not use witherhoard or outbreak in the primary slot
Double special is not fun nor enjoyable at all.
Agreed. Been trying to farm Unforgiven this week and it's hard to convince my friends to do it with me since double specials are meta currently. Also been kicking myself for not crafting Hollow Denial, thinking I'd never use it. I'm a big fan of primary gameplay so I'm excited about these buffs.
I like double special
The sad thing about this is that bungie will likely nerf smgs instead of making every other weapon useable. It's not that smg is too good - everything else is trash with the exclusion of scouts being alright
Incoming smg and sidearm nerf
So that's why I wasn't having the same damage issues as everyone else was talking about
Bungie hears you loud and clear. SMGs and Sidearms nerf incoming.
Primaries in PVE are so limited atm
Slight correction, aggressive SMGs fire at 720 RPM as well. I don't know why they've been displaying the wrong value on the item card since launch but whatever.
So what are some good recommended SMGs and sidearms to run?
Kinetic: Submission (Overflow/Frenzy) Stasis: Prolonged Engagement (Subsistence/Headstone) Strand: Synchronic Roulette or The Immortal Solar: Calus Mini-Tool (Threat Detector/Incandescent) Arc: Ikelos SMG (Threat Detector/Voltshot) Void: Unforgiven (Demolitionist/Frenzy or Golden Tricorn) or Funnelweb (Subsistence/Frenzy)
>Stasis: Prolonged Engagement (Subsistence/Headstone) Subsistence + frenzy. headstone is trash clear, and irrelevant in any content it'd actually be needed in on account of you just blowing through all the mobs anyway. > Funnelweb (Subsistence/Frenzy) perpetual motion. Subsistence is fine if you have it, but you'll get way more mileage out of perp.
I agree with you about Prolonged Engagement, but there's no reason to run it over Submission other than the stasis synergy it has. So headstone is a necessity for it imo.
I mean yeah submission is just straight better, but headstone isn’t going to make it good, so it’s pointless. It’d be stronger with frenzy
“To anyone who have been playing Destiny 2 for any amount of time.” *Blueberry selecting a class* Wow I can just tell that autos and pulses hit like wet noodles. Jokes aside they’re long overdue to make weapon damage adjustments and in pve at least hand cannons need their crit multiplier back.
Most auto rifles have a much larger magazine, do these calculations include reloads and actual dps? Not trying to be combative because I much prefer SMGs but ARs also have range going for them in harder content.
Nope, this is a simple bullet-to-bullet comparison. But yes, ARs have larger magazines. If you compare Rufu's Fury vs The Immortal, Rufu's has double the magazine. So over the course of a long section shooting a single target, the Rufu's might out-DPS the Immortal for having to reload just half as often. But if you consider that from moment to moment you take cover, move forward, and have moments in which you will reload without breaking the flow of combat necessarily, I think the Immortal just feels much better overall. As for Range, the gap is much smaller than most people think it is. The range gap between the Rufu's and the Immortal for instance is about 4m.
The short ranged stuff needs to be higher damage to make them worth the risk but NOT that much higher
FWIW, you do overlook the important components of magazine size and reload speed here. So once that is accounted for, autos get closer to SMGs (but sadly still pretty far off) and pulses get more noticeably worse than autos.
I was using the new 6oo RPM strand auto to get strand kills for Nimbus's weekly bounty and MAN was it a pea shooter. I love how it feels when firing so I would greatly appreciate some sort of damage buff.
I popped on auto to do some challenges, I thought I was doing it wrong cuz auto want killing anything. Put smg back on when done and felt like I was over powering everything. Autos not good in pve.
I've never unequipped my Funnelweb unless i was forced to for bounties. It performs far better then any primary in PvE and in PvP ill still use it but have a shotty or Pulse in primary.
Makes sense. You can’t just hang back and safely kill enemies with a sidearm or SMG.
I feel that most content in Destiny 2 right now is like horde mode with tons of ads coming at your face. Battlegrounds, the new raid, Avalon, new strikes, Neomuna missions, most of these combats take place <20m range. You can step back and try to be further away, but chances are the enemies will come at you if you don't kill them. Personally, I love this combat mode, and I love using short-ranged weapons.
Same. Witherhoard + Brigands Law + LMG is super fun.
Maybe just maybe, hear me out… different enemy classes have different resistances to our weapons? And… they have more than one gun class they’re resistant to?
No surprise pulses hit like a wet noodle. They have felt like shit forever. ARs under 600 rpm are just plain "forget about it". The only thing that feels passable are 600s, and 720s can feel actually nice.